Bonjour!
La France a un système se développant d'autoroute. Voici un début:
Différents groupes de nombres tous sont focalisés dans un secteur spécifique. Par exemple, A14, entre Poissy et La Defense, est autour d'autres itinéraires d'A1x.
France's Autoroute system developed quite late compared to that of Germany, especially for long-distance Autoroutes, most of them were not constructed earlier than the 1970's. Urban freeways existed earlier than that of course.
To me, I find France's Autoroutes way more relaxing to drive than the German Autobahn. Driving fast is nice, as long as you have a car with enough HP and accelerates easy above 80 mph. For long distance driving, however, I prefer France, despite their roads being tolled quite high.
France experiences some of the worst summer congestion in all of Europe. Usually, the entire A7 from Lyon to the coast is backed up during the so-called "black saturdays" (120 miles), and the A9 continues towards Spain with severe congestion. Excessive congestion is unavoidable during those summer saturdays, so it's best to avoid those days unless you want to drive in slow traffic for hours and hours.
This year, there was over 400 miles of stationary traffic at some point during the summer peak days.
French signage:
1. Announcement of a rest area with services ahead.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3428%2F3215282597_d158815381.jpg&hash=200c8804f2abc3972d210aadd6157a849d03d26a)
2. Kilometer marker, road number + altitude. The shoulder is in use as a crawling lane here due to the uphill grade.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3493%2F3215283205_8fd8265e25.jpg&hash=84353e23dd530ce8b79ef1421a09e72ce1d9f90b)
3. First exit announcement. There are no green destinations here, so it's a local exit.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3444%2F3216135682_49bba7e450.jpg&hash=4bba7fed20c21e8ee09a728f2549142e1e9678f4)
4. The exit
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5. Left = through destinations, right = exit
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6. Services. An "aire" is a rest area.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3339%2F3216137048_dd7116733a.jpg&hash=e71da93b492a4d4968c13fdd1d5fcb37d34b86ac)
7. Touristic sign. I have cycled to that "chaos". :cool: Notice French side markings are dashed for separating the right lane with the shoulder.
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8. Something we all like.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3412%2F3216137500_cb09266fc7.jpg&hash=3d6e08d5e7ebf4d4aff48c24e2e50e57c473b566)
9. "Prochaine sortie" means: next exit. It shows additional destinations of interest, accessible via the next exit.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3114%2F3215286105_91c8052c5f.jpg&hash=5eee32989efef1472c5218e264a1d3a7650bc19b)
10. "Section a péage" means: toll road. This doesn't necessarily mean there is a toll plaza right ahead, it could be further away, since French exits are often spaced apart for a significant distance up to 20 miles.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3346%2F3215286277_3f79b45b8b.jpg&hash=582aa4397ba685d3270cea8bda5a8e1a203efe65)
11. Overhead signage. Notice the signs are broken up into several panels, this is usual in France. Green destinations note major towns and are often alternates for toll roads. The left sign says "Péage", which means all those destinations are reached via a toll road.
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12. Rest area of the Millau viaduct. I recommend anyone who drives A75 to stop there and take a breathtaking picture of the Viaduc de Millau (the roadway is 886 feet above the valley floor)
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13. Distance sign. "Fd" in Clermont-Fd is an abbreviation of "Ferrand". The full name is Clermont-Ferrand, but the name is a bit long to display in full. A and E-numbers are displayed.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3297%2F3215286959_b452d039fc.jpg&hash=e85b68cd0f2dd4d2dad885d1e9c1d42d31cdfd0a)
14. This sign shows the distance to exit Millau-St. Germain and the destinations which can be reached via that exit.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3121%2F3215287519_0158fddeed.jpg&hash=7162872e388333459acc09fa8e30301e3d25649e)
15. hell yeah!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3125%2F3216139560_0fb5634460.jpg&hash=95ec8c4f49bf114d85e996119fbf8bf86b10c75d)
16. I didn't take pics of the Millau viaduct from my car because I wanted to make a video (which was a disaster)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3530%2F3216139872_200b551a3c.jpg&hash=6422954cab70458fa7b250c756d8d84d2cb6f14b)
17. tolls in 1000 meters.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3511%2F3216140322_abdf7d70b1.jpg&hash=0a7d1c77e41dbde5151ddee124e914a58da01860)
18. The toll plaza. ETC is offered for frequent users, in reality, no tourist has them.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3431%2F3215288819_1ecb2fa481.jpg&hash=ecbdae6ff8f8681a201e0a11a784ba2b0e5b0f7c)
19. Exit Millau-St. Germain.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3445%2F3215289147_78500aa656.jpg&hash=6295356a0d7029abb91a30b80779dbf59e5f810f)
20. Cahors is a major destination reached via a major road, but not an Autoroute.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3119%2F3216140878_0ba72b6eaf.jpg&hash=c75c1718316fd90123e3ebe2adaa8d77df9b4823)
21. The long french names, capital letters and signs into multiple panels, make the signage messy sometimes, especially around larger cities.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3368%2F3215290399_7ff8e2afa8.jpg&hash=601851e39ab09c045ec1db18dd4ada9e9e738570)
22. Love this pic:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3325%2F3215291181_63a0598d3f.jpg&hash=b49d035baf1d88f7dde2ec223e91aa01066a611d)
That's it for now :)
If you want to see more of France, check out my sets @ Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/collections/72157612744955183/)
Chris mentioned the dashed shoulder line. This is also used to keep a safe distance from the vehicle in front. You're supposed to leave 2 lines in front but in reality if you're in the fast lane and there's someone holding you up you simply get as close as you can without touching bumpers and put your left flasher on.
As far as I know, the French are the only in Europe to leave their left turning signal on while passing. Quite annoying. People from other countries only use their signals when changing lanes, not the whole time on the left lane.
what does the brown sign mean exactly? Does it mean you have to take the next exit to get to the feature, or that the feature is visible from the main road?
also, how come people leave on Saturday if they know full well they won't get there 'til Sunday?
sounds worse than I-80 heading to Lake Tahoe from the Bay Area every Friday and Saturday, or Los Angeles to Las Vegas.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 03, 2009, 01:23:44 PM
what does the brown sign mean exactly? Does it mean you have to take the next exit to get to the feature, or that the feature is visible from the main road?
Brown signs are touristic. They offer tourist information about what you can see or do along your journey. In this case the Millau bridge is part of the A75 itself.
Quotealso, how come people leave on Saturday if they know full well they won't get there 'til Sunday?
Saturday is high-season changing day at hotels, resorts and rental appartments. Om saturday road conditions are worst, but don't think it's quiet on the night from friday to saturday, the next night or on sunday. Even at 3 AM the autoroutes are loaded with cars, mostly on a 1000+ miles journey.
Now this is driving:
A5 Sens - Troyes
This road connects Paris to... well not much actually. It's a quiet Autoroute, which means it's a pleasure to drive. I think this Autoroute barely gets over 10,000 - 15,000 AADT, maybe somewhat more closer to Paris, but it doesn't really extend into the Paris urban area. The largest town en route is Troyes.
1. Announcement of a rest area, 18 km ahead.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3459%2F3215338955_61152833ae_b.jpg&hash=7a894440435304516340d244cdfcfea553dfd9db)
2. This is what this area looks like, very rural with rolling hills. Some call it boring, I like it.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3084%2F3215339447_cc5e0f88cc_b.jpg&hash=c870611226e6cd2ad6ba9a8f1b735c735b291cc7)
3. You can say what you want about the French, but their toll roads are always in excellent condition.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3527%2F3216191246_d55033df61_b.jpg&hash=b78bf15c05e16d2e41caeae102014bda1cd93869)
4. An SOS phone. They are still common in Europe, although there are more cell phones than people. The interval of them varies by country, some have them every 1 km, some every 2km, or some even every 5 km. They are common from France to Bulgaria and from Sweden to Portugal.
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5. Just cruising through the area. I love it.
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6. 1000 m sign for an exit. Exits are pretty rare in this area, they can be over 20 km apart. The average interval of exits in the Netherlands, for instance is between 3 and 4 km.
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7. I am not too much of a fan of capitalized fonts. The French one isn't the best around in Europe either. I prefer the Czech capital font.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3333%2F3216192120_7b285c5a58_b.jpg&hash=134d1fef8418df629c876b4c7d644ccd349ab449)
8. Next exit 26 km. Green destinations note major cities along major routes. That way you can just ignore the local clutter on the white signs. I kind of like this system. I was once driving on the former N20 parallel to the A20 Autoroute in southern France. I just had to follow Cahors, and then Montauban instead of focusing on dozens of local destinations.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3093%2F3216192284_63f1e86ee6_b.jpg&hash=49870f49f1483d19b95643e705549e2a142d2530)
9. Mulhouse is even signed here, although it's not on this Autoroute, and not on a connecting one either, you need to follow A5, A31, A39 and A36 to get there.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3480%2F3215340767_51d4d6d957_b.jpg&hash=66eb9c8b160250062763f4a474226eee5f9390f7)
10. The French usually drive pretty fast on regular highways, but on the Autoroute, they drive pretty tame. If you keep 130-140 km/h, you're usually the fastest on the road.
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11. I mean, THIS is driving. Nice views and almost no traffic. That why I prefer these roads over the always busy German Autobahn with fast pacing traffic which makes a cross-country trip in Germany pretty intense. Driving fast is nice for like an hour, but if you drive half a day or more on the Autobahn, it's not that much fun anymore, imo.
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12. There it is, the Troyes-Centre exit. I took this one to try out an alternate road next to the A26 towards Reims. It turned out to be a pretty good road, zero traffic and dead straight.
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That sign with massive distances to Mulhouse I assume is if you go via Dijon. If you went as the crow flies it would be much shorter but the roads are also inferior.
I must say your comments about Germany are partially true. I do like a quick blast every now and then but when you're not in the mood for 200kmh all you get is constant flashing and tailgating whilst you're in the passing lane. As for France, I find 130kmh quite boring on the empty stretches and I know the Gerndarme like to stop cars with British plates which is why I stick below 140. I hope they allow a little leeway.
I'm gonna have to say that I found driving on the French Autoroutes a little more stressful than the German/Austrian Autobahns, but that might be mainly because I'm not as comfortable with the French language. Here are some photos from the trek from Strasbourg to Paris on the A4.
I think these signs are a jumbled mess...but that might just be me. It seemed very difficult to disseminate the information with the different colors and fonts all over the place. The arterials in Paris were the biggest navigational nightmare I've ever encountered...but that's another story. I just found myself missing the obsessive-compulsive organization of the Germans.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh5.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FSzpgZJVehcI%2FAAAAAAAAAtI%2F1CFuhfV_4ls%2Fs640%2FIMG_4557.jpg&hash=786386fafaeb990c8f9e3df947a0f2157979f9ec)
We quickly learned that this means "Fork over the cash"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FSzpgZeUOowI%2FAAAAAAAAAtM%2FCff59iRXq4o%2Fs912%2FIMG_4562.jpg&hash=68c68d628225eef89107e314931acd9818955a4c)
Turns out that when it comes to taking cash, the French are nice enough to put those words in the German language. :)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FSzpgdPFUduI%2FAAAAAAAAAtk%2FvqSUM_BtlNQ%2Fs720%2FIMG_4613.jpg&hash=3a8e60ea1776c471825c9c9892a047448cb060a9)
Someone else mentioned this, but I thought this was the coolest feature of the Autoroutes...this is MUCH smarter than that stupid "2 second rule" that they teach us in the US.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FSzpgZfrEeLI%2FAAAAAAAAAtQ%2FGU9SR9U3YXI%2Fs720%2FIMG_4571.jpg&hash=c45e064ca9f77d6c9ee362d1ab905b35cae61095)
Within 1 stripe, too close (danger).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FSzpgZYLEZzI%2FAAAAAAAAAtU%2FntY3r6pNxcY%2Fs720%2FIMG_4572.jpg&hash=1bbe5f5f9e40f8366d60bcdf06b87a7282178438)
2 stripes and beyond, safe (security)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh5.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FSzpgZeClGkI%2FAAAAAAAAAtY%2FmjSzPrBYCTg%2Fs576%2FIMG_4573.jpg&hash=c2b350a22708767160b49d194aae0316c0093531)
The tourist signs prior to cities/regions are cool, but not always clear. We were left to believe that the workers of Freyming-Merlebach are disgruntled and like to wear lights on their heads. ? :sombrero:
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Apparently continuing forward here is NOT a good idea.
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There's also signs with "Pour votre securite" and a camera on them. Personally I think they just guarantee the safety of the French government's coffers than that of motorists :pan:
Quote from: shoptb1 on December 29, 2009, 03:10:54 PM
I think these signs are a jumbled mess...but that might just be me. It seemed very difficult to disseminate the information with the different colors and fonts all over the place. The arterials in Paris were the biggest navigational nightmare I've ever encountered...but that's another story. I just found myself missing the obsessive-compulsive organization of the Germans.
You're right there. The French tend to sign too much suburbs, and due to adminstrative and historical reasons, there are a lot of them. Paris has only 2 million inhabitants, but has an urban area of 14 million, with only 3 or 4 of the suburbs having over 100,000 inhabitants, hence they have a huge amount of separate suburbs, and they sign too much of them.
Although this is only a problem in the biggest French urban areas, like Paris, Strasbourg, Toulouse and Lyon, to my recollection. Smaller cities are less problematic. Another issue is the French tend to physically split signs up, which adds to the mess of capital fonts, destinations and tabbed road numbers.
I agree about French signage being hard to read, but I find all European signage incomprehensible. No exit numbers, tiny route numbers (if they're present at all); it's a mess! IMO US and Canadian signage is much, much better.
^^ Any European would say exactly the opposite ;)
By the way, virtually all road numbers are signed in Europe. Can you give an example where no road numbers are signed? Plus, most countries use exit numbers prominently. If you look at the photos above, you can see exit numbers.
That probably has to do with the fact that I can't even decipher the signs enough to see where an exit number could possibly be. I can swear I've seen pictures of French signs that didn't have any route numbers on them, but it's possible those weren't exit signs (as I can't even remotely tell what any French signs mean; ditto for any country other than the US and Canada for that matter). Where the numbers are, though, they are much less prominent than their American equivalents.
Were the autoroutes numbered from the start, or were the A- designations added much later? I noticed that in most of the guide signs shown in earlier posts, the A- and E- designations were added on at the top rather than being an integral part of the big signs. The E routes are probably from ~1992.
From what I've seen on GMSV, it's also interesting that implied autoroute multiplexes usually (always?) sign only one A- route, leaving apparent gaps in what could be a continuous second route.
The placing of the number (somewhat small-ly) on top of signs is just general French Practice. Has been confusing when both directions at a T-junction have big Paris signs and different villages you've not heard of - you have to play hunt the number if you are used to a UK, German, etc scheme where numbers are on the sign.
The new system of Euroroutes date from implementation in 1983, though it could have been unsigned for ten years.
Autoroutes themselves were renumbered in the 80s. Originally they had A, B, F, G and H prefixes, with the latter for spurs or lower standard routes. (note missing C, D and E for local, department and European routes).
European countries are destination focussed, not number focussed. Even in the halfway-house that is Britain, multiplexes aren't (with one or two small exceptions) co-signed. The non-dominant route might be in brackets, which is a bit different to France.
Road numbers are almost always tabbed, I don't really know why they do that.
For instance, I took this picture in 2006 of the then-recently opened A28 north of Tours.
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I have to echo some of the comments made in this thread about clutter on French signs.
In this picture there are 8 signs pointing right at this roundabout. For goodness sake is it really necessary to have so many? Is it possible to take in so much information at once?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedcam.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk%2Ffranceclutter.jpg&hash=ec9d080e6d92369c7b4d78d7d0826a6d5bd58842)
This picture shows what facilities are available at the next town. Once again it is too much information to take in at once. On the left is a speed camera or radar automatique as the froggies call them.
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At least those green directional signs help you out if you're not en-route to a local destination. But I agree, way too much on the signs. But it's not as bad as some Italian local signs, I've seen signs with over 15 destinations/objects.
Quote from: Truvelo on December 31, 2009, 08:20:00 AM
This picture shows what facilities are available at the next town. Once again it is too much information to take in at once. On the left is a speed camera or radar automatique as the froggies call them.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedcam.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk%2Fradarauto.jpg&hash=10424126b04b95916738a4be4c569f4f6e749468)
Wouldn't it be easier to mention what they
don't have on this sign assembly instead? :sombrero:
speed camera schmeed camera - I'd have to slow down to half the speed limit just to be able to read everything!
also: a stop sign in the distance? Here I thought in Europe they used yield almost universally.
Stop tends to be used where visibilty is restricted unlike North America where it's used almost everywhere. Actually I'm surprised they don't use arret given they are so protective of their language. Even Quebec uses arret.
the Vienna convention of 1968 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals) does allow STOP signs to use their local language.
STOP signs are indeed used in places where there is no visibility towards the road you cross unless you are stopped.
Quote from: Truvelo on December 31, 2009, 02:56:26 PM
Stop tends to be used where visibilty is restricted unlike North America where it's used almost everywhere. Actually I'm surprised they don't use arret given they are so protective of their language. Even Quebec uses arret.
The French are actually less protective of their language than the Québecois--in France English loanwords are widely used and understood though not considered posh. In regard to STOP signs, there is actually no provision in the French road code for them to say anything other than STOP. In Québec the option does exist to use STOP (for signing purposes it is treated as a French word, and so it does not have to be used with ARRÊT), but for a variety of obvious reasons (not the least of which is vandalism), ARRÊT is used almost exclusively except on Canadian federal government property, where the Government Property Traffic Regulations apply and bilingual STOP/ARRÊT is used.
Some pictures of the Autoroute A40 through the Jura Mountains. A rather interesting feat of engineering.
1. All roads lead to Paris.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4103%2F5042731420_57f019fd28_o.jpg&hash=d7328c88d15e65b97752370be553994175f6c0fc)
2. Toll plaza. Most toll gates are eastbound because of the winter season peak (which is mainly concentrated eastbound - into the Alps)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4104%2F5042107365_d0edcc3f4e_o.jpg&hash=4446e457fde70c0f6a0eba116469b533a695407f)
3. This section of Autoroute was completed during the 1980's. France was rather late with a large network, compared to countries like Germany, Italy, the UK, Belgium and the Netherlands.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4132%2F5042107865_2cde81eafc_o.jpg&hash=6caa7f5ef6f486bb7d18fc20f144a1868f6f7ff6)
4. No lack of signs showing off every possible point of touristic interest. The French know how to sell their country.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4124%2F5042108275_b6043d3d88_o.jpg&hash=22474f57e7fae4aae55c160dfa4215e13824ed80)
5. Standard exit signage. The S-numbers are some kind of permanently posted alternate routes.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4083%2F5042108413_52d5f066db_o.jpg&hash=f5ac67c8571c233295d51e4365b807a4dbbb8116)
6. Here we go.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4131%2F5042108793_8600a9d9ef_o.jpg&hash=9bbbd3107899e012ed1bc0767892ccb9a7e00016)
7. Kilometer marker.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4124%2F5042108879_30f6fb264c_o.jpg&hash=2dcc0ef1eb596b4b6c2f6e2ab41563b46666a897)
8. Roadworks. Until the mid-1990's this section of A40 was only a single roadway with 2 lanes, because of the expense of the second viaducts at that time.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4091%2F5042733362_3a3aa9cf7f_o.jpg&hash=028dbb9f6a5eef919cfa7ea6663aeefb9ad3714f)
9. Pretty interesting to watch it from this perspective.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4088%2F5042109043_2218319568_o.jpg&hash=8fc1846e9453dd4b18f9d73b26c0978fc3c0baab)
10. Jura Mountains.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4084%2F5042109339_df2082eb93_o.jpg&hash=6093e4eaaabba9d33599fc366019756dda9e0322)
11. Viaduct of Nantua.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4154%2F5042109383_faf7518d74_o.jpg&hash=557018236d8e487a77f563d307902117b3cca7e8)
12. From the viaduct straight into a tunnel.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4104%2F5042733814_c7cf096575_o.jpg&hash=19273cb6d33de5e2095502e6c8ef2a79d61d3cec)
13. Interchange with Autoroute A404 - the road to nowhere.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4084%2F5042109865_e09cd95f38_o.jpg&hash=039ee1c97bf1f86052b8f72df247cb993527d284)
14. Notice the fog ahead. It turned from abundant sunshine to dense fog within a minute.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4133%2F5042110209_64ae76faf0_o.jpg&hash=2296d0dbf780651f584f5e985052bf5abd56270b)
15. Interchange with A42.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4127%2F5042110529_9f4eec7b1a_o.jpg&hash=9598d07a3873b521f793ddbbe683b5ded3fec71c)
16. Fog
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4107%2F5042110987_469041a022_o.jpg&hash=83477ce036bb438e0fd9d5e9bd261572cb5fc368)
17. Not sure if this Mâcon has anything to do with Macon, GA
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4090%2F5042735448_b037f60dff_o.jpg&hash=e5fc510656c216bbbddfce87dfaee781e326b2dc)
18. Boogie-woogie signs. Not that common, but you see them from time to time.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4103%2F5042111633_dc9a5bcddc_o.jpg&hash=893677ad8b7302c22d66aad536a2f7f524f2cb2c)
Quote from: Chris on October 11, 2010, 02:57:06 PM
9. Pretty interesting to watch it from this perspective.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4088%2F5042109043_2218319568_o.jpg&hash=8fc1846e9453dd4b18f9d73b26c0978fc3c0baab)
We have a stretch in the UK that is very similar (http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=51.452442,-2.79145&spn=0.009547,0.023904&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.452502,-2.791194&panoid=vSWjClAbvFz3KZHev1T52w&cbp=12,89.75,,0,4.43).
Quote from: Chris on October 11, 2010, 02:57:06 PM
13. Interchange with Autoroute A404 - the road to nowhere.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4084%2F5042109865_e09cd95f38_o.jpg&hash=039ee1c97bf1f86052b8f72df247cb993527d284)
I would not be able to interpret this on the fly. Why is A-404 on a blue sign, while A-40/E-21/E-26 are separate tabs? Is that the exit number on the white sign kinda buried in the right stack? What is Hauteville-L. and why does that get a white sign, while Oyonnax gets a blue one? Does white mean that Hauteville-L. is accessible only via surface streets, while Oyonnax is on the freeway?
On the left set, what is Bourg en B. and why does that get a separate sign instead of being on the same sign as the other three destinations?
also, is there a second split off in the distance? With the white stuff splitting off A-404? Again, surface-level streets?
In general, are initials like L. and B. well-known to the local populace? What about other Europeans not from France? Given that one can easily drive to France, and many do, are the initials a problem for foreigners? Or am I just from the wrong continent on this one?
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 11, 2010, 11:27:38 PMQuote from: Chris on October 11, 2010, 02:57:06 PM(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4084%2F5042109865_e09cd95f38_o.jpg&hash=039ee1c97bf1f86052b8f72df247cb993527d284)
I would not be able to interpret this on the fly. Why is A-404 on a blue sign, while A-40/E-21/E-26 are separate tabs? Is that the exit number on the white sign kinda buried in the right stack? What is Hauteville-L. and why does that get a white sign, while Oyonnax gets a blue one? Does white mean that Hauteville-L. is accessible only via surface streets, while Oyonnax is on the freeway?
My answers are necessarily speculative since the French do not put their guidelines for direction signing online and I don't have copies of the print publications. I do, however, have an extensive collection of sign design sheets (well over 1000 pages' worth) culled from
dossiers de consultation des entreprises issued by the French equipment ministry and the
conseil général for the Haut-Rhin
département. So:
* Normal practice is for route cartouches to appear as external tabs on pull-through signs, and on the actual sign panel on advance guide and exit direction signs. I do not know the justification for doing things this way.
* Yes, that is an exit number on one of the white signboards. France has numbered junctions since at least 1982, when provision for them was made in an interministerial instruction on direction signing. Older junction number cartouches had the word "sortie" (italicized, in the L3/L4 typeface) instead of an exit symbol. The exit symbol was a later development, appearing around 1990, and I think it was borrowed from Spain. It has spread elsewhere in Europe, notably to Sweden and Finland in recent years.
* "Hauteville-L." is Hauteville-Lompnes, a mountain town south of the A40 corridor. In this context I believe it actually indicates the town, rather than functioning as an interchange label. (The distinction is nontrivial. If you look at this area closely in Google Maps, you will see that
autoroutes have black-on-orange placards superimposed near junctions, with some having number labels while others have name labels. "Hauteville-Lompnes" appears as a name label on the A404 near the A40 junction, which is numbered 8 on the A40.) The junction complex gives access to the town of Hauteville-Lompnes from both directions of the A40 by means of the D1084 and D12. Hauteville-Lompnes is not on the
réseau vert, nor are the roads leading to it part of the
réseau vert, so it appears against a white background. Towns on the
réseau vert reached from the
autoroute by roads on the
réseau vert get white-on-green signing. In general, the color of the last few signs for an exit off the
autoroute is appropriate for the standard of the route or route branch reached through the exit. Multiple colors are used in exit signing assemblies where there is the possibility of reaching different types of routes through the same exit.
* The connection between D1084 and D12 is made just outside a
Zone de développement. On French guide signs in general, though not this particular set, you will see a bewildering variety of acronyms beginning with Z (e.g.,
Z.I.,
Z.A.I.), and all you really need to know is that the Z stands for
zone and refers to the fact that the location signed is a designated development area for factories, offices, etc. It is similar to "business park," "office park," "industrial estate," etc. signing in the UK and the USA, or
polÃgono industrial signing in Spain.
* Oyonnax appears on blue because it is the terminus town and control city for the A404.
QuoteOn the left set, what is Bourg en B. and why does that get a separate sign instead of being on the same sign as the other three destinations?
"Bourg en B." = Bourg-en-Bresse. It is the next significant town on the A40 itinerary. It appears separately from Paris, Lyon, and Strasbourg because those are long-distance control cities for the A40 as specified by the
schéma directeur de signalisation, which for the
réseau vert (which includes all
autoroutes and all green-line
routes nationales) has to be approved by the Minister for Equipment himself. (Typically this is done on the advice of senior civil servants, which--as in the UK--limits the actual scope for ministerial caprice.)
Quotealso, is there a second split off in the distance? With the white stuff splitting off A-404? Again, surface-level streets?
No. What actually happens is that traffic at the A40/A404 interchange (A40 junction 8, as indicated on the sign) is split into two streams after it leaves the A40. One stream goes to the A404, while the other goes onto the surface roads required to access Hauteville-Lompnes. The Hauteville-Lompnes traffic never actually touches the A404, so the sign does not describe a future exit off the A404.
QuoteIn general, are initials like L. and B. well-known to the local populace? What about other Europeans not from France? Given that one can easily drive to France, and many do, are the initials a problem for foreigners? Or am I just from the wrong continent on this one?
I don't think you are from the wrong continent. I have problems with the initialisms on French signs and I have to point out that these examples are far from the worst. My collection has multiple examples of initialisms, some involving fraction bars, like "Bourg des Ctes," "s/l," "s/," "/s," etc. Some are easy to recognize and interpret since they are abbreviations for common French words and phrases like
sur,
sous,
sur la, etc. which are used throughout the country and are familiar both to French drivers and anyone with some rudimentary knowledge of French. Others are specific to particular placenames and I think they are used on the assumption that they will be decoded easily by locals, who drive frequently on the corridors in question, and by outside drivers who study a French road atlas in advance of their journeys.
In this case, if you had a French road atlas (as I do, though not with me), and studied the A40 itinerary before you set out, you would be likely to correlate "Bourg en B." and "Hauteville-L." with locations shown in the atlas. Google Maps also allows you to search by the abbreviated placenames and comes up with plausible expansions very quickly. In fact, I located this interchange in Google Maps by doing a search for {Bourg en B., France}.
A rule of thumb is that if the initialism is the trailing part of a town name, as is the case for both Bourg-en-Bresse and Hauteville-Lompnes, it is a less important part of the town name which gives geographical specificity to the first part of the town name. The "en B." part of "Bourg en B." is a prepositional phrase which allows Bourg-en-Bresse to be distinguished from the other Bourgs all over France, including Bourg des Comptes. But if you are on the A40, the only Bourg which could logically be pointed to on that sign is Bourg-en-Bresse (since Bourg des Comptes is clear on the other side of the country, near the Atlantic coast, while the other Bourgs are similarly remote), so the "en B." part does not need to be spelled out. Similarly, "-L." in "Hauteville-L." allows Hauteville-Lompnes to be distinguished from all the other Hautevilles in France, but does not need to be spelled out because the only Hauteville nearby is Hauteville-Lompnes.
Frankly, I find the initialisms to be more of a nuisance when going through French sign design sheets than when actually driving in or riding in a bus in France. My knowledge of French geography is very shaky, though in the summer of 2009 I made a systematic effort to remedy this by reading a French road atlas from cover to cover. I therefore need to have initialisms like "s/L" spelled out (as, e.g., "sur Loire" rather than, say, "sur Lot") to orient myself when I am sitting in my study looking at sign design sheets.
P.S. To give a somewhat wider idea of what is possible with French autoroute direction signing, I have uploaded the sign design sheets for a major autoroute direction sign replacement in Lorraine (A31/A33/A330):
http://www.fileserve.com/file/YvnZgpj
The PDF file is 6 MB in size and has 403 sheets, all of which are pattern-accurate and in full color.
thanks for all the answers - speculative or otherwise, they make sense.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 12, 2010, 04:48:16 AM
Quotealso, is there a second split off in the distance? With the white stuff splitting off A-404? Again, surface-level streets?
No. What actually happens is that traffic at the A40/A404 interchange (A40 junction 8, as indicated on the sign) is split into two streams after it leaves the A40. One stream goes to the A404, while the other goes onto the surface roads required to access Hauteville-Lompnes. The Hauteville-Lompnes traffic never actually touches the A404, so the sign does not describe a future exit off the A404.
I think we are actually in agreement here. When I say "off in the distance", I meant within a few hundred meters, where the gantry in the background is visible. So, indeed, the A404 (blue sign) traffic and the surface-level (white sign) traffic splits right there.
except I did not know that the A404 does not start there, but rather, the surface level traffic splits off before the left lane joins up with A404.
I had thought (since it was signed only in one direction) that A404 began at A40, and therefore that offramp
was the beginning of A404... is that not correct?
What's annoying in France are the very long place names, often named after some kind of geographic feature nearby, like a mountain range or river. For example, Ivry-sur-Seine simply means "Ivry on the Seine", and Boulogne-sur-Mer means "Boulogne on sea". But if you're just passing through, unknown to the local river names, you sometimes have no idea what these abbreviations mean. But then again, I never had a problem navigating through France.
A much more annoying feature in the past decade is that the Route Nationales are transferred to the Departements, which means the N20 will get a number like D920 or D2020, making it harder to follow a route number, because the old Route Nationales did make a lot of sense and you could follow them throughout the country. Luckily, the green signs will show you major non-freeway destinations. Toll-free routes are still well signposted.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 12, 2010, 04:25:18 PMthanks for all the answers - speculative or otherwise, they make sense.
You're welcome!
QuoteQuote from: J N Winkler on October 12, 2010, 04:48:16 AM
Quotealso, is there a second split off in the distance? With the white stuff splitting off A-404? Again, surface-level streets?
No. What actually happens is that traffic at the A40/A404 interchange (A40 junction 8, as indicated on the sign) is split into two streams after it leaves the A40. One stream goes to the A404, while the other goes onto the surface roads required to access Hauteville-Lompnes. The Hauteville-Lompnes traffic never actually touches the A404, so the sign does not describe a future exit off the A404.
I think we are actually in agreement here. When I say "off in the distance", I meant within a few hundred meters, where the gantry in the background is visible. So, indeed, the A404 (blue sign) traffic and the surface-level (white sign) traffic splits right there.
except I did not know that the A404 does not start there, but rather, the surface level traffic splits off before the left lane joins up with A404.
I had thought (since it was signed only in one direction) that A404 began at A40, and therefore that offramp was the beginning of A404... is that not correct?
It is correct. The A404 does begin at the A40 and runs north only. What I actually meant is that traffic headed for Hauteville-Lompnes (the "white" destination) leaves at the A40/A404 interchange complex (which connects with the surface road system) and does not reach the mainline A404. I am not sure where on the A40/A404 transition the A404 is officially considered to begin. If this were Spain you could expect to pass an "
autovía cancel" sign within the interchange, followed in short order by an "
autovía begin" sign also within the interchange, if you were not actually transitioning to the surface road system. But I don't think France does that. I know that the UK doesn't because neither the "on" or "off" variant of the chopsticks sign is supposed to appear in any area that is continuously subject to motorway regulations. In the UK, and I think also in France, you don't actually receive confirmation that you have transitioned successfully to the right road until you pass the first pull-through or route confirmation (distance) sign with the route number at top (part of the sign panel in the UK, tabs at the top in France).
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 13, 2010, 05:01:05 AM
It is correct. The A404 does begin at the A40 and runs north only. What I actually meant is that traffic headed for Hauteville-Lompnes (the "white" destination) leaves at the A40/A404 interchange complex (which connects with the surface road system) and does not reach the mainline A404. I am not sure where on the A40/A404 transition the A404 is officially considered to begin. If this were Spain you could expect to pass an "autovía cancel" sign within the interchange, followed in short order by an "autovía begin" sign also within the interchange, if you were not actually transitioning to the surface road system. But I don't think France does that. I know that the UK doesn't because neither the "on" or "off" variant of the chopsticks sign is supposed to appear in any area that is continuously subject to motorway regulations. In the UK, and I think also in France, you don't actually receive confirmation that you have transitioned successfully to the right road until you pass the first pull-through or route confirmation (distance) sign with the route number at top (part of the sign panel in the UK, tabs at the top in France).
so each country has a different definition of where a freeway begins or ends? I think in the US, the connecting ramps of a freeway do count as part of the route, so for example interstate 710 begins at the Queen Mary Terminal (and two other places in Long Beach). And a freeway like interstate 8, which begins, then drops down to one connecting ramp at I-5, before expanding back out to five lanes, is not considered to be discontinuous.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 13, 2010, 11:25:40 AM
so each country has a different definition of where a freeway begins or ends? I think in the US, the connecting ramps of a freeway do count as part of the route, so for example interstate 710 begins at the Queen Mary Terminal (and two other places in Long Beach). And a freeway like interstate 8, which begins, then drops down to one connecting ramp at I-5, before expanding back out to five lanes, is not considered to be discontinuous.
I think it varies by state here. Some states go by ramps (NJ), some go by centerlines (OH). When a route begins as a series of ramps, when are the ramps considered part of the route? Some states consider them separate routes (PA), some don't.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 13, 2010, 11:25:40 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 13, 2010, 05:01:05 AM
It is correct. The A404 does begin at the A40 and runs north only. What I actually meant is that traffic headed for Hauteville-Lompnes (the "white" destination) leaves at the A40/A404 interchange complex (which connects with the surface road system) and does not reach the mainline A404. I am not sure where on the A40/A404 transition the A404 is officially considered to begin. If this were Spain you could expect to pass an "autovía cancel" sign within the interchange, followed in short order by an "autovía begin" sign also within the interchange, if you were not actually transitioning to the surface road system. But I don't think France does that. I know that the UK doesn't because neither the "on" or "off" variant of the chopsticks sign is supposed to appear in any area that is continuously subject to motorway regulations. In the UK, and I think also in France, you don't actually receive confirmation that you have transitioned successfully to the right road until you pass the first pull-through or route confirmation (distance) sign with the route number at top (part of the sign panel in the UK, tabs at the top in France).
so each country has a different definition of where a freeway begins or ends? I think in the US, the connecting ramps of a freeway do count as part of the route, so for example interstate 710 begins at the Queen Mary Terminal (and two other places in Long Beach). And a freeway like interstate 8, which begins, then drops down to one connecting ramp at I-5, before expanding back out to five lanes, is not considered to be discontinuous.
I did some research for I-710's southern terminus for the Clinched Highways site, and the Long Beach and Queen Mary segments aren't considered part of I-710; it officially begins at CA 47.
Of course, the Thomas Guide prefers the Long Beach alignment, and until I saw the legislative definition for the Terminal Island alignment, thought it was Queen Mary as well.
I saw these old videos in French about the N7 (Nationale 7) who was, before the autoroutes, was the main road from Paris to the Italian border via Nice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0i46mtUdiCc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNtmeUM4qRo
Just for context, Nationale 7, which was later bypassed with the A7 autoroute mentioned above, was the main vacation route from Paris to the south of France. As such, it is fairly well-known in the popular mindset, much as Route 66 is in the US, and songs and so on have been written about it, in particular Charles Trenet's "Nationale 7." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4zPGydBYHg) (He also wrote the original French version of "Beyond the Sea.") Anyway, there's a bit of travel "lore" associated with the route, such as the marker at the 45th parallel (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0009082,4.8726198,3a,54y,166.8h,84.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZ3mCSpsAAWIpp-wOMvwqKw!2e0!5s20190701T000000!7i7680!8i3840), that "officially" separates the north from the south of France. As mentioned above, the traffic was legendary, to the point where the town of Lapalisse recreates it with old timey vehicles in a small festival every two years.
N7 has been bypassed by autoroutes since the early 1970s, so pretty much half a century ago.
Yet it was not uncommon for regular people to take N7 instead of the tolled autoroute, because people had to make a decision between paying tolls or staying a few more days for that same amount of money.
I remember my parents and their friends (now in their sixties) sharing stories about how it was common to take the old national roads in the 1980s because they couldn't afford to pay tolls all the way to southern France. I think this faded away in the 1990s, as incomes grew and it became an acceptable vacation expense.
Nowadays there isn't much shunpiking, except for folks who want to travel slower and see the country with an RV. They don't mind driving 3 or 4 days from north to south. But for the average traveler to southern France, time matters and the route nationale travel just takes up far too much time.
When I was in Germany and would drive to Calais for the ferry to England, I would shunpike and take this N-road that cut a hypotenuse roughly between Metz and Arras. It took 2 hours longer, but I got to see a lot more of real France (and enjoyed some petrol savings as well).
Article about a French Autoroute Interchange project: https://www.worldhighways.com/wh12/news/sarens-completes-nantes-area-a11-bridge-lift
Here's a video on the toll roads in France (the history and who owns them).
The sentiment towards the toll rates is quite negative, but the toll rates in most of France are not hugely out of line with other countries.
However, due to EU legislation, cross-subsidies are not allowed, which means that less economical toll roads cannot be owned by a larger operator, so the newer toll roads are operated by separate entities and are absurdly expensive compared to the older toll roads. Examples are A19, A28, A65, A88 and A150.
The toll roads have guaranteed a high level of service for long-distance intercity traffic (except on Fridays & Saturdays in July & August). The road quality is generally impeccable, the rest areas of good quality and quantity, and traffic flow is generally very good.
The main problem for long-distance traffic in France is the lack of good bypasses at the largest cities, such as Paris, Lyon & Bordeaux. Through traffic mixes with commuter traffic, often on substandard expressways.