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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Topic started by: cpzilliacus on February 12, 2016, 03:34:09 PM

Title: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: cpzilliacus on February 12, 2016, 03:34:09 PM
Washington Post: The radical plan to destroy time zones (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/02/12/the-radical-plan-to-destroy-time-zones-2/)

QuoteAll around the world, time zones make little sense. Russia currently has 11 time zones, while China just has one. Spanish people are said to be constantly tired because they are in the wrong time zone. Nepal is —inexplicably — the only country in the world to have a time zone that is set to 15 minutes past the hour.

QuoteLooking over this chaotic landscape, it's reasonable to ask: Are time zones inherently flawed? That's what Steve Hanke and Dick Henry think.

QuoteA few years back Hanke, a prominent economist with Johns Hopkins University and a senior fellow with the CATO Institute think tank, and Henry, a professor of physics and astronomy at Johns Hopkins, teamed up to propose a new calendar designed to fix the inefficiencies of the current one. The plan was dubbed the "Hanke-Henry Permanent Calendar." (http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/calendar.html) Last month, after reading a WorldViews story about Pyongyang time (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/08/07/north-koreas-new-time-zone-is-perfectly-bizarre/) , Hanke reached out to us to detail another idea that he and Henry had devised to fix the chaos caused by time zones.

QuoteThe plan was strikingly simple. Rather than try to regulate a variety of time zones all around the world, we should instead opt for something far easier: Let's destroy all these time zones and instead stick with one big "Universal Time."
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 12, 2016, 03:39:36 PM
So instead of just Spanish people being in the wrong time zone, now 23/24ths of the world will be in the wrong time zone. 

Yay for fixing problems that don't exist!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on February 12, 2016, 04:50:09 PM
Russia has 11 times zones because it has a lot of longitude.  China has less longitude, plus a central government that's happy to set times zones for Beijing's convenience and ignore the hinterlands.  Kinda like this economist.

UTC is already available for anyone who wants to use it.  That's mainly astronomers and people in global transportation or communications.  For most everyone else, they'd rather have sunrise in the morning hours and sunset in the evening hours, even when it's imperfect.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 12, 2016, 05:06:56 PM
In China in addition to Beijing time (UTC+8) the Xinjiang Uyghur government has set an unofficial time zone more consistent with its longitude, UTC+6.

And yes, here in Spain we are in permanent DST, but we are not constantly tired, we simply adjusted our customs accordingly. Right now it's 11:07 p.m. (5:07 p.m. Eastern), if we were in the correct time zone I'd probably go to sleep at this hour, maybe a bit earlier.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: wxfree on February 12, 2016, 05:13:44 PM
I'm all for it, as long as the Universal Time is always the same as my local time.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: cl94 on February 12, 2016, 05:55:39 PM
If you really care that much, use UTC. For the rest of us, there isn't a reason. Time zones mainly arose because of railroads and the faster transportation they brought. Before then, every town had its own local time based on the sun (you traveled so slowly that it didn't matter). There isn't a reason to synchronize everything.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Jardine on February 12, 2016, 06:00:35 PM
How about 1440  time zones ?

With GPS, Blue tooth, WWV, cell phones and everything is connected anyhow, just have all clocks keep track of UTC, position and then calculate and display local solar time to the minute.

:wow:
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on February 12, 2016, 07:31:44 PM
Do these guys really think it's easier to look up what every single locality's working/waking hours are than it is to look at a time zone map?  They basically want to return to what life was like pre-time zones, except with forcing everyone to memorize a new calendar.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on February 12, 2016, 07:49:33 PM
Ask Napoleon how well people adapt to having a radically different calendar forced upon them.
Title: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 12, 2016, 09:50:53 PM
I saw this article this morning, in bed.  I did not need to go to Washington, DC, to get the Post do it.  I did not have to go to Johns Hopkins to hear this idea.  I simply pulled out the unbelievably powerful networked supercomputer in my pocket (no, I did not have it in my pocket while I was in bed, stop interrupting) and found the article effortlessly. 

This same magic tool will tell me exactly what time it is anywhere whenever I ask. 

It's 10:44 a.m. in Ulaan Bataar right now.  3:44 a.m. in Kinshasa.  3:45 a.m. in McMurdo Station, Antarctica (looking it up, as you can see, takes some time).

It's 11:19 in Pyongyang (I got distracted by the TV).

See?  No new time plan.

And don't get me started on the calendar.  Every scientist and technocrat thinks they're smarter than the general public who are doing just fine.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: DTComposer on February 12, 2016, 11:04:01 PM
So, if I understand this right:

Right now, along a particular latitude, sunrise occurs for everyone at say, 7:00 AM. The sun is at its highest point in the vicinity of 12:00 noon, and sunset is at 7:00 PM. I can travel anywhere in the world, and the above holds true (noting the effect of changes in latitude), so my sunrise is always at 7:00 AM.
With Universal Time, perhaps now my sunrise is at 2200. OK, I adjust. But then I travel a couple thousand miles, and sunrise is now at 1900. So my concept of what the world should be like at 2200 is no longer true.

Currently, the abstract notion of assigning numbers to the passing of time is pegged to tangible, visible events.

They want to assign essentially a random, abstract number to everyone without reference to any physical, visible event. That seems more confusing, not less. What common meaning does 0700 have to two people 10,000 miles apart if there's no common visible event (the sunrise) for both of them?

It seems like it's the equivalent of making everyone speak a common language, but the words mean different things depending on where you are. So we all learn "apple," "ladder" and "ball," but what's called a "ball" in London is a "ladder" in New York and an "apple" in Tokyo.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Duke87 on February 12, 2016, 11:18:14 PM
I think the key point this sort of idea misses is that any sleep issues people have are caused not by the number on the clock but rather by the expectations society places upon them of when they have schedule obligations.

Whether I have to be at work at 9 AM Eastern Standard Time or 14:00 UTC, it's the same thing and using one as opposed to the other doesn't change whether my body likes being awake at the time necessary to make that happen. If the issue is that people don't like when they need to be somewhere, allowing flexible work schedules whenever practical may be a better answer than messing with the clocks.

Using UTC everywhere also has a couple of major drawbacks.
One is that it fails to provide numbers which have any relation to human perception - our internal biological clocks are calibrated by the sun, and intuitively we want our external clocks to behave similarly. Regardless of where you are, what time it is should give you some idea of where the sun is in the course of its progression across the sky.
Another is that for regions of the world not at low numbered longitudes, it makes keeping track of dates a major headache. We humans perceive a day as beginning when we wake up and ending when we go to bed. It is a deliberate feature of the way we keep track of time that the date changes when most people are at least home even if not asleep just yet, so that the calendar date is the same throughout a human day. UTC everywhere would make the date change at what's currently 7 PM for the eastern US and 4 PM for the west coast. Saying "I'll come visit on March 3rd" would become an ambiguous statement, since it'd be a different day depending on whether you were visiting in the morning or the evening.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: bandit957 on February 13, 2016, 12:59:48 AM
I read that there was once a plan to institute universal time, but the hours would be designated by letters. You'd have A:00, B:00, etc. But local time would still be designated by numbers.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: wolfiefrick on February 13, 2016, 12:26:24 PM
I don't know how I feel about this.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: lordsutch on February 13, 2016, 02:24:13 PM
Both solutions create issues of their own. If we keep all time in UTC but schedule things based on local noon, it creates problems because people do poorly when dealing with odd time offsets and modulo 60 math is hard for most of us to do off the top of our heads (when does a 1 1/4 hour meeting end that starts at 3:38 pm?).

On the other hand if we keep time based on local noon, scheduling anything that involves people more than a degree or so east or west becomes a nightmare. That's the whole reason standard time zones were created. It also relies on clocks being coordinated to their current location automatically, which requires a lot of battery power to do anything globally reliable (locking to GPS requires a lot of battery power, longwave and shortwave time signals are notoriously interference-prone; good luck doing either underground or inside a large building).
Title: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 13, 2016, 02:48:32 PM
It will simplify all our lives.  For example:

The calendar stipulates that in years whose corresponding Gregorian calendar starts or ends on a Thursday (so much for tossing out the Gregorian Calendar) there will be an extra "mini-month" called "Xtr."  If this is too hard to keep track of, there's an easy-to-remember list: 2015, 2020, 2026, 2032, 2037, 2043, 2048, 2054, 2060, 2065, 2071, 2076, 2082, 2088, 2093, 2099, 2105...

If this is still hard, there is another "simple" way to follow along on the author's website:

"I am indebted to Irv Bromberg for pointing out that a simple way exists to test whether a year contains a Xtr (or Extra) month..."

"Here is a fortran subroutine which uses this rule, to determine whether or not the year "iyear" contains a Xtr (or Extra):"

[lines of computer code snipped, the point is clear]
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: noelbotevera on February 13, 2016, 03:03:34 PM
Why don't we just have one single time zone, then not give a crap to anyone else who has their sun set at 8 AM. sarcasm
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Rothman on February 14, 2016, 12:23:10 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 13, 2016, 02:48:32 PM
If this is too hard to keep track of, there's an easy-to-remember list: 2015, 2020, 2026, 2032, 2037, 2043, 2048, 2054, 2060, 2065, 2071, 2076, 2082, 2088, 2093, 2099, 2105...

Maybe easy to remember for savants... :D
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: cl94 on February 14, 2016, 12:38:23 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 14, 2016, 12:23:10 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 13, 2016, 02:48:32 PM
If this is too hard to keep track of, there's an easy-to-remember list: 2015, 2020, 2026, 2032, 2037, 2043, 2048, 2054, 2060, 2065, 2071, 2076, 2082, 2088, 2093, 2099, 2105...

Maybe easy to remember for savants... :D

Time and the calendar are so ingrained in our culture that changing it would create quite a disturbance. Time as we know it has basically existed near its current form (sunrise AM, sunset PM) for as long as records have been kept. While the Gregorian calendar is a relatively new change, all it really did was make a negligible change to the length of a year (less than 11 minutes) in order to ensure the solstices fell within 3-4 days of each other in each year, with a similar system being used since Roman times. The change? Centurial years not divisible by 4 aren't leap years (i.e. 1900 was not a leap year) and, at the time, everything was shifted forward by a week and a half.

Basically, by changing the time and lengths of months, you'd be screwing with what has been set in human culture since there has been a remotely-widespread calendar and time system.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 14, 2016, 01:08:12 AM
I'm going to rise above my bias for a second (my bias = leave everything alone).

We have messed with the calendar for centuries.  In 1752 we not only skipped 12 days that year, we moved New Year's Day by nearly three months.  We survived.

That said, I don't see a general clamor.  I don't see a problem.  What benefit warrants this much meddling?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: lordsutch on February 14, 2016, 02:36:16 AM
The other thing to bear in mind is that the Gregorian calendar took almost four centuries to become universal among those countries using Roman-derived calendars. There were countries still using Julian dating in the 20th century, most notably the Russian Empire, hence why the October Revolution took place in what most other countries considered to be November...

If anything moving away from time zones would be even more disruptive, because it would also affect countries using the Islamic and Jewish calendars as well.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on February 14, 2016, 02:42:50 AM
Yes, we messed with the calendar, but we messed with it in evolutionary ways.  One less leap year per century and standardize the beginning of the year from the inconsistent prior usage.  Hanke and Henry want to mess with it in revolutionary ways, that it's by no means clear would make things better on the whole.

If nothing else, about the calendar, religious Jews, Christians, and Muslims regard the 7-day week as governed by the commandment about the sabath.  If you try to get people to stick extra days in the middle, the religious will keep their own calendar for religious use and the mandated one for civil use.  Additional calendars in use does not make life simpler, it makes life more complicated.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 14, 2016, 07:34:31 AM
About the calendar, I prefer the current one as the days of the year rotate through all weekdays, so any day of the year can fall in any weekday (yes, even February 29th, which for example was a Wednesday in 2012 and this year is a Monday). I wouldn't like to have every day of the year always in the same weekday. However I like the fact this calendar proposal has a February 30th.

As for a unified time I've already adopted Eastern Time (six hours behind mine for most of the year) for the purposes of this forum. This leads to a weird schedule where I wake up just before 2 am and I go to bed shortly before 6 pm. It also allows me to post in otherwise out-of-reach hours like 4 am :sombrero:, but as many of you might know I don't post when the forum becomes more active (6 pm to midnight) because I'm sleeping then. This doesn't have stopped me to set my profile so it shows my time, though.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 15, 2016, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.

I lost patience before I logically considered all the implications of their calendar, as most people would, but if there are something like six years between adjustment "mini-months," won't the calendar drift off the seasons periodically?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: dcbjms on February 15, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.

Yeah, I noticed that too.  There's a crank that has his own website, which I admittedly follow, known as "The Order of Time", and one of his big things is readjusting the calendar (http://www.theorderoftime.com/science/fullcalendaroforder.html) to make it more regular in part by syncing it with the sun.  Part of it involves a switch to solar time; in part because of that, and due to the geography of my area of New England, I've adjusted the time zone on my computer (well, when it works 90% of the time - it currently has a fan problem, which I'm going to initially solve by blowing canned air hopefully without taking the whole thing apart) to the new Venezuelan time zone (UTC-4½) since it matches the longitude for Rhode Island and Eastern Massachusetts.  So my computer is on standard time year round, with no DST.  Whether that works or not remains to be seen.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: hotdogPi on February 15, 2016, 10:04:29 AM
Quote from: dcbjms on February 15, 2016, 10:00:15 AM
(UTC-4½) since it matches the longitude for Rhode Island and Eastern Massachusetts.

Where I live (UTC-5), solar noon is 11:49 AM. No need to change.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: MikeTheActuary on February 15, 2016, 10:34:41 AM
I see the argument for everyone using UTC as being just a rather extreme extension of my complaint about the change between standard and daylight saving time: it's incredibly arrogant and inefficient for man to change the clock to suit his needs, rather than changing his schedule to match reality.  (For example, rather than fuss about children waiting outside in the dark for their school bus as justification for changing back to standard time, why not just change school start times?)

Does it really matter whether I set my wake-up alarm to 0500 EST or 1000 UTC?    I don't see a big problem with lunchtime being 1700 UTC rather than 1200 EST.

That being said, having the calendar day change during business hours around the Pacific would, I think, be a bit of a headache for practical adoption of such a scheme.  It's not that big a deal in those environments where widely-dispersed operations already result in folks standardizing on UTC, but for nontechnical conversational purposes, terms like "today" and "tomorrow" become potentially ambiguous if the calendar day changes around high noon, at tea-time, etc.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on February 15, 2016, 12:17:52 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 15, 2016, 10:34:41 AM
I see the argument for everyone using UTC as being just a rather extreme extension of my complaint about the change between standard and daylight saving time: it's incredibly arrogant and inefficient for man to change the clock to suit his needs, rather than changing his schedule to match reality.  (For example, rather than fuss about children waiting outside in the dark for their school bus as justification for changing back to standard time, why not just change school start times?)

Does it really matter whether I set my wake-up alarm to 0500 EST or 1000 UTC?    I don't see a big problem with lunchtime being 1700 UTC rather than 1200 EST.

That being said, having the calendar day change during business hours around the Pacific would, I think, be a bit of a headache for practical adoption of such a scheme.  It's not that big a deal in those environments where widely-dispersed operations already result in folks standardizing on UTC, but for nontechnical conversational purposes, terms like "today" and "tomorrow" become potentially ambiguous if the calendar day changes around high noon, at tea-time, etc.

We don't just change school start times because then it would be just one thing happening in isolation.  Many other things have to change as well.  For instance, before-school and after-school care is often independent of the schools and would need to change their times in coordination.  How long kids need to be in before or after school care will be determined by their parents' work schedules, so they would also need to change in coordination.  City or county bus systems often take older kids to and from school, so their schedules would need to adjust in coordination.  Then there's places like grocery stores that plan for their busiest hour between 5 and 6 PM for people picking things up on the way home, they'd have to adjust their staff schedules.  We could change all those things individually, but it ends up easier to change the clocks for everyone at the same time, at least for people in the temperate latitudes.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on February 15, 2016, 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 15, 2016, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.

I lost patience before I logically considered all the implications of their calendar, as most people would, but if there are something like six years between adjustment "mini-months," won't the calendar drift off the seasons periodically?
I doubt a week is enough to be noticeable against typical weather variations.  After all, the original point of syncing the calendar with the seasons had nothing to do with astronomy - it was so that crops wouldn't be planted in January.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: brycecordry on February 15, 2016, 09:27:19 PM
My only wish is that the time zones would be more aligned to where they actually should go on the map. Oh...yeah-and that the DOTs sign the time zone boundaries (unlike Indiana)

Other than that, they should keep up their good work! :-)
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 12:12:38 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 15, 2016, 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 15, 2016, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.

I lost patience before I logically considered all the implications of their calendar, as most people would, but if there are something like six years between adjustment "mini-months," won't the calendar drift off the seasons periodically?
I doubt a week is enough to be noticeable against typical weather variations.  After all, the original point of syncing the calendar with the seasons had nothing to do with astronomy - it was so that crops wouldn't be planted in January.

You lost me.  People plant when the calendar does or doesn't start? 
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 16, 2016, 10:54:11 AM
While we are at it, could we agree an universal start to the week? I find calendars that start the weeks at Sunday confusing, given that I'm used to the week starting Monday. After all, Sunday is part of the weekend, and thus placing it at the end of the week instead of the start (as most of the world does) would make more sense.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 16, 2016, 10:59:17 AM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on February 16, 2016, 10:54:11 AM
While we are at it, could we agree an universal start to the week? I find calendars that start the weeks at Sunday confusing, given that I'm used to the week starting Monday. After all, Sunday is part of the weekend, and thus placing it at the end of the week instead of the start (as most of the world does) would make more sense.

At least in that case, you can purchase calendars that start on Monday. 
Title: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 11:22:16 AM
Try doing your shopping at multiple grocery stores that can't agree whether to start weekly sales on Friday, Saturday or Sunday (not to mention one national upscale chain that runs their organic specials on cycles like Wednesday to Tuesday and Friday to Monday).
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on February 16, 2016, 07:21:23 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 12:12:38 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 15, 2016, 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 15, 2016, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.

I lost patience before I logically considered all the implications of their calendar, as most people would, but if there are something like six years between adjustment "mini-months," won't the calendar drift off the seasons periodically?
I doubt a week is enough to be noticeable against typical weather variations.  After all, the original point of syncing the calendar with the seasons had nothing to do with astronomy - it was so that crops wouldn't be planted in January.

You lost me.  People plant when the calendar does or doesn't start? 
I believe that was one of the reasons the Julian calendar was invented.  As far as I (and every single other person who lives in the northern hemisphere) is concerned, January means "winter".  I don't give a crap what the astronomical seasons are, but I would definitely have a problem if it started snowing in July.

Don't forget that agriculture is the reason calendars were invented.  Not astronomy.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 08:52:19 PM
The year started in March until 1752, right?  I always thought that made the most sense, since there is no beginning of anything happening up here in January. 
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Big John on February 16, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 08:52:19 PM
The year started in March until 1752, right?  I always thought that made the most sense, since there is no beginning of anything happening up here in January. 
The calendar started in January in the Julian calendar.  A confusion is when Caesar inserted July and August for himself as September through December literally mean 7th month through 10th month.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Duke87 on February 16, 2016, 09:35:58 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on February 16, 2016, 10:54:11 AM
While we are at it, could we agree an universal start to the week? I find calendars that start the weeks at Sunday confusing, given that I'm used to the week starting Monday. After all, Sunday is part of the weekend, and thus placing it at the end of the week instead of the start (as most of the world does) would make more sense.

This is one of those things that, like the format for writing the date, is always going to vary from culture to culture. The practice of showing Sunday as the first day of the week (which is certainly standard in the US) is likely rooted in Saturday being the "seventh day" that god rested on in the biblical creation story.

It's worth noting that which days are the standard days off is not universal, either. Many Muslim cultures observe a weekend of Friday and Saturday, with Sunday as the first day of the work week.

The idea of a two day weekend itself only came into being as a result of industrialization and subsequent labor movements. In agrarian societies, even as late as the early 20th century, there was generally only one day a week (Friday for Muslims, Saturday for Jews, Sunday for Christians) where people did not work.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on February 16, 2016, 09:50:04 PM
Julius changed the start date of the year from Fall to Winter (by adding two months, totalling 67 days, between Nov and Dec 46BC as a one off as the calendar shifted)*. Those two months, that one year, were the only months he added - July and August are just renaming existing months that happened later (though July was named after Julius in 44BC, after his death, so there was only one year post-Julian reform with Quintilis. And maybe August was there in the second year of the new calendar - Augustus' ego made him the first emperor - a title that even his adoptive father wouldn't dare claim, after all).

The idea that the calendar started in March was earlier Roman ('Romulus' creating a 10 month calender with months 11 and 12 being Jan/Feb added by one of the early kings not long after in the 7th century BC) calendar, but got shifted to begin at January at same point well before Julius came on the scene - maybe even the reform that gave 12 months (ie dumping them at the beginning not the end) - it's very unclear when.

*IIRC, he also changed the start of the day from sunset to midnight.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 17, 2016, 06:14:00 AM
I decided to readopt 'Quintilis' as a month just in the case a Southern hemisphere tropical cyclone lasts beyond June 30th in order to avoid having two months named July in the same 'tropical year' (This happened last year when 'Tropical Storm' Raquel formed on June 30th). Similarly, I've adopted 'Undecimber' for the Northern hemisphere, so I have recorded Tropical Storm ζ (Zeta) as lasting until Undecimber 6th, 2005 (i.e. January 2006).

IIRC they changed the start of the calendar from March to January during the conquest of Hispania (present day Spain) in late 3rd century or early 2nd century BC due to a revolt, so they could send new consuls.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 17, 2016, 10:08:20 AM

Quote from: Big John on February 16, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 08:52:19 PM
The year started in March until 1752, right?  I always thought that made the most sense, since there is no beginning of anything happening up here in January. 
The calendar started in January in the Julian calendar.  A confusion is when Caesar inserted July and August for himself as September through December literally mean 7th month through 10th month.

I looked up what I was thinking about, and being of the United States, I automatically assumed what happens here applies to the whole world.

Here, as in all the British Empire, the year did indeed start on March 25 for 600 years until 1752.  Thus, March 24, 1731 was followed by March 25, 1732.  While we today say George Washington was born in 1732, in the reality of his time and birthplace he was born in February of 1731, a month or so before 1732 began.

Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: freebrickproductions on February 17, 2016, 01:11:40 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on February 16, 2016, 10:54:11 AM
While we are at it, could we agree an universal start to the week? I find calendars that start the weeks at Sunday confusing, given that I'm used to the week starting Monday. After all, Sunday is part of the weekend, and thus placing it at the end of the week instead of the start (as most of the world does) would make more sense.
I don't mind having Sunday at the beginning of the week. Since Saturday and Sunday are the two weekend days, they are likewise located at the two ends of the week: the beginning end and the ending end.
But then again, I am American, and we do have the weeks start on Sunday here, so me just not wanting to change is probably playing into that a good bit. :P
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 17, 2016, 01:22:12 PM

Quote from: freebrickproductions on February 17, 2016, 01:11:40 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on February 16, 2016, 10:54:11 AM
While we are at it, could we agree an universal start to the week? I find calendars that start the weeks at Sunday confusing, given that I'm used to the week starting Monday. After all, Sunday is part of the weekend, and thus placing it at the end of the week instead of the start (as most of the world does) would make more sense.
I don't mind having Sunday at the beginning of the week. Since Saturday and Sunday are the two weekend days, they are likewise located at the two ends of the week: the beginning end and the ending end.
But then again, I am American, and we do have the weeks start on Sunday here, so me just not wanting to change is probably playing into that a good bit. :P

My mental calendar doesn't really happen on a grid, so it makes almost no difference to me where Sunday goes on a piece of paper.  I also don't often need to talk about discrete weeks that aren't just Monday to Friday.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: mgk920 on February 18, 2016, 10:21:41 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 16, 2016, 07:21:23 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 12:12:38 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 15, 2016, 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 15, 2016, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.

I lost patience before I logically considered all the implications of their calendar, as most people would, but if there are something like six years between adjustment "mini-months," won't the calendar drift off the seasons periodically?
I doubt a week is enough to be noticeable against typical weather variations.  After all, the original point of syncing the calendar with the seasons had nothing to do with astronomy - it was so that crops wouldn't be planted in January.

You lost me.  People plant when the calendar does or doesn't start? 
I believe that was one of the reasons the Julian calendar was invented.  As far as I (and every single other person who lives in the northern hemisphere) is concerned, January means "winter".  I don't give a crap what the astronomical seasons are, but I would definitely have a problem if it started snowing in July.

Don't forget that agriculture is the reason calendars were invented.  Not astronomy.

The Julian calendar was devised so that early Christians would have an accurate measure of when to celebrate Easter.  The currently used Gregorian calendar corrected an error in the Julian calendar, which most Orthodox Christians churches still use.

Mike
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: dcbjms on February 18, 2016, 04:49:10 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 18, 2016, 10:21:41 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 16, 2016, 07:21:23 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 16, 2016, 12:12:38 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 15, 2016, 08:55:44 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 15, 2016, 12:41:59 AM

Quote from: vdeane on February 14, 2016, 10:51:25 PM
One thing I think is interesting is that these guys don't care about syncing the day with the sun but still care about syncing the year with the seasons.  If you're gonna get rid of one, might as well get rid of both.

I lost patience before I logically considered all the implications of their calendar, as most people would, but if there are something like six years between adjustment "mini-months," won't the calendar drift off the seasons periodically?
I doubt a week is enough to be noticeable against typical weather variations.  After all, the original point of syncing the calendar with the seasons had nothing to do with astronomy - it was so that crops wouldn't be planted in January.

You lost me.  People plant when the calendar does or doesn't start? 
I believe that was one of the reasons the Julian calendar was invented.  As far as I (and every single other person who lives in the northern hemisphere) is concerned, January means "winter".  I don't give a crap what the astronomical seasons are, but I would definitely have a problem if it started snowing in July.

Don't forget that agriculture is the reason calendars were invented.  Not astronomy.

The Julian calendar was devised so that early Christians would have an accurate measure of when to celebrate Easter.  The currently used Gregorian calendar corrected an error in the Julian calendar, which most Orthodox Christians churches still use.

Mike

Makes one wonder if things would have been different if the modern Hebrew calendar was used instead, since Easter traditionally happens at the same time as Passover.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 18, 2016, 05:53:45 PM
Easter is supposed to be on the first Sunday after the first full moon after March 21 (the equinox, roughly).  Wikipedia tells us Easter was happening later and later in the solar year, so the Gregorian calendar aimed to realign it with its traditional time.  I don't know when March 21 became the equinox (roughly), but the Gregorian calendar ensures, arbitrarily, that the equinoxes and solstices now always happen on or about the 21st of their respective months.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on February 18, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on February 18, 2016, 10:21:41 AM
The Julian calendar was devised so that early Christians would have an accurate measure of when to celebrate Easter.  The currently used Gregorian calendar corrected an error in the Julian calendar, which most Orthodox Christians churches still use.

Mike
Technically the Julian Calendar was developed LONG before Christianity was the religion of Rome.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 18, 2016, 05:53:45 PM
Easter is supposed to be on the first Sunday after the first full moon after March 21 (the equinox, roughly).  Wikipedia tells us Easter was happening later and later in the solar year, so the Gregorian calendar aimed to realign it with its traditional time.  I don't know when March 21 became the equinox (roughly), but the Gregorian calendar ensures, arbitrarily, that the equinoxes and solstices now always happen on or about the 21st of their respective months.
Makes sense... while one wouldn't notice a week or two shift with respect to the weather, if it was going to be a late Easter that year anyways and the shift puts it in May, THAT would be noticed.

Still don't know why Easter is defined with lunar cycles instead of solar cycles.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 18, 2016, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 18, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
Still don't know why Easter is defined with lunar cycles instead of solar cycles.

I still don't know why Easter just doesn't have a specific date. And why is it always on Sunday? Compared to
Jesus' birth, which is observed on the same date every year which falls on random days of the week..
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: jwolfer on February 18, 2016, 10:42:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 18, 2016, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 18, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
Still don't know why Easter is defined with lunar cycles instead of solar cycles.

I still don't know why Easter just doesn't have a specific date. And why is it always on Sunday? Compared to
Jesus' birth, which is observed on the same date every year which falls on random days of the week..
Based on the Jewish calandar. The last supper was the Passover Seder.  It is around Passover. So the date was known. Jesus birth was never specified. It was probably in the springtime when sheppards would have been in the field The Roman Church picked 12/25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.

Interesting how the major Christian holidays are right around the solstice.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 12:00:55 AM

Quote from: vdeane on February 18, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
Still don't know why Easter is defined with lunar cycles instead of solar cycles.

Oh, but it is both!  While the full moon is part of it, so is the solstice, which is part of the solar calendar (solstice, after all).


Quote from: jwolfer on February 18, 2016, 10:42:55 PMThe Roman Church picked 12/25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.

Interesting how the major Christian holidays are right around the solstice.

I think you answered your own question, not that it was really a question.  While I am no expert, over the years what I have heard is that these dates were adapted to capitalize on or supplant existing pagan holidays, many of which centered around these natural milestones in the calendar.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 19, 2016, 12:20:45 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on February 18, 2016, 10:42:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 18, 2016, 10:31:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 18, 2016, 10:08:23 PM
Still don't know why Easter is defined with lunar cycles instead of solar cycles.

I still don't know why Easter just doesn't have a specific date. And why is it always on Sunday? Compared to
Jesus' birth, which is observed on the same date every year which falls on random days of the week..
Based on the Jewish calandar. The last supper was the Passover Seder.  It is around Passover. So the date was known. Jesus birth was never specified. It was probably in the springtime when sheppards would have been in the field The Roman Church picked 12/25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.

Interesting how the major Christian holidays are right around the solstice.

That Christmas takes place at the same time as Saturnalia is a coincidence. Rather, it was chosen because it was 9 months after the Annunciation (the announcement to Mary that she was pregnant), which is on March 25. That said, the celebration of Christmas certainly does incorporate elements of Saturnalia as well as other pre-Christian traditions, notably Yule.

Also, only one major Christian feast takes place around the solstice. Easter takes place somewhat near the equinox, which is something a bit different. Nothing in particular takes place at the summer solstice or the fall equinox.

As for the questions of the date of Easter, those can't be answered easily. A lot of history and politicking and math has gone into determining that date. Suffice it to say here, though, that Easter is linked to the Jewish commemoration of Passover, which occurs on a set date in the Hebrew calendar. Now the Hebrew calendar has months that start and end with the new moon, with leap months added every now and again to keep things aligned with the seasons. Since Passover takes place in the spring, near the full moon, the decision was made to place Easter as the first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox. Why Sunday? This was a huge debate at one time, with one group saying that Easter should occur at the same time Passover does, with no regard for days of the week, and another saying that Easter should be on a Sunday since every Sunday is a commemoration of the resurrection. Eventually the second group won out, mostly because there was a desire to separate Christian Easter from the Jewish Passover. The rule that was eventually adopted (first Sunday after the first full moon after the spring equinox), does exactly this, placing Easter more often than not at about a week after Passover.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on February 19, 2016, 06:22:48 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on February 18, 2016, 10:42:55 PMBased on the Jewish calandar.
Well sort of - a compromise between those who took the Julian day of March 25th (which was the solstice, but also Nisan 14 in AD33) to avoid relying on the Jewish calendar with the new year announced by priests, and those who celebrated it based entirely on the Jewish calendar. They went with a way of calculating the Sunday after 'Passover' (usually, but not always) using the Julian calendar rather than needing to rely on the Jewish calendar, keeping the link with Passover but without needing to rely on Jewish priests.
QuoteJesus birth was never specified. It was probably in the springtime when sheppards would have been in the field The Roman Church picked 12/25 to coincide with the Roman festival of Saturnalia.
It was picked as the winter solstice for reasons that have nothing to do with Saturnalia, which came at least 50 years after the idea of "Jesus was born on December 25" came about (the big celebration was a week later, with New Years, rather than the solstice) and was on the way out come the time that the date was solidified and became a big celebration for Christians all over.
QuoteInteresting how the major Christian holidays are right around the solstice.
That's because they made an idealised calculation for Jesus' birth - Jesus died at the Spring equinox (though it being the equinox was pretty irrelevant to that) and clearly must have spent a full number of (Julian) years between incarnation and death, so therefore must have been conceived on March 25th (the Feast of the Annunciation, fixed the Julian calendar rather than moveable like Easter is), and then born exactly 9 months later on the winter equinox... It's weird, but it stuck.

Stuff like Hogmanay, Uphellia (Viking celebration), Julian New Year, etc suggest that a week after the solstice was the key date for pagans.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 18, 2016, 05:53:45 PMWikipedia tells us Easter was happening later and later in the solar year, so the Gregorian calendar aimed to realign it with its traditional time.
Three extra leap days every four centuries than the Gregorian, which has a smaller error. By the 1600, the calendar was 12 days off. Greg however took 4 extra days off, and the solstices/equinoxes moved from the 25th that they were in the Julian calendar to the 21st.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on February 19, 2016, 07:20:19 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 18, 2016, 10:08:23 PMTechnically the Julian Calendar was developed LONG before Christianity was the religion of Rome.
And ~40 years before Christ was born.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 18, 2016, 10:31:12 PM
I still don't know why Easter just doesn't have a specific date. And why is it always on Sunday? Compared to
Jesus' birth, which is observed on the same date every year which falls on random days of the week..
You are thinking in solar calendar terms...

Easter is always a Sunday as the day of the week has significance.

Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 19, 2016, 12:20:45 AMThat Christmas takes place at the same time as Saturnalia is a coincidence. Rather, it was chosen because it was 9 months after the Annunciation (the announcement to Mary that she was pregnant), which is on March 25. That said, the celebration of Christmas certainly does incorporate elements of Saturnalia as well as other pre-Christian traditions, notably Yule.
I knew I should have looked over the page. Good stuff
QuoteWhy Sunday? This was a huge debate at one time, with one group saying that Easter should occur at the same time Passover does,
Surely the third day afterwards? ;)

Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 12:00:55 AMI think you answered your own question, not that it was really a question.  While I am no expert, over the years what I have heard is that these dates were adapted to capitalize on or supplant existing pagan holidays, many of which centered around these natural milestones in the calendar.
A common myth since Victorian times (when what Celtic/Saxon pagans celebrated on their feast days was retrospectively made up based on what Christians were doing around that time of year for a reason lost in time). It's also quite an North European-centric myth, where Christian celebrations that started in Syria, Asia Minor, Greece, etc are linked to pagan festivals from Scotland, Ireland, Germania, or whatever that weren't in the Roman empire, nor had little more than a handful of Christians living in them until well after the feast was ingrained in 'Christendom'. Samhain and Halloween being a big one where the "two feasts similar times, therefore copy" is invoked where there is, at-best, a tenuous link and a more rational explanation is that a day halfway between equinox and solstice is going to be a common day to hold a feat.

A similar thing would be the JWs decrying Easter as pagan because of English etymology of the word (German too) that isn't an issue with almost all other languages: eg Pesach in French, from the Latinisation of the Hebrew word for Passover (though that might still be beyond the pale for them - the ones I met were pretty anti-Semitic).

C.S. Lewis would make the point that the year tells the Christian story and Paganism would pick up on those things in creation - eg gods of the harvest that rise from the dead around the spring equinox makes sense, because they are copying the Christian story that has been told since the dawn of time: resurrection in the spring.

Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 17, 2016, 10:08:20 AMI looked up what I was thinking about, and being of the United States, I automatically assumed what happens here applies to the whole world.
A typical part of the human condition
QuoteHere, as in all the British Empire, the year did indeed start on March 25 for 600 years until 1752.  Thus, March 24, 1731 was followed by March 25, 1732.  While we today say George Washington was born in 1732, in the reality of his time and birthplace he was born in February of 1731, a month or so before 1732 began.
A legal fiction to better fit the agricultural year, and for ~350 of the 597 years when it happened, New Year's Day was celebrated as a festival on Jan 1.

The English tax/financial year still begins in April (though whether it's the 1st or the 6th depends on stuff - eg road numbers, linked to funding, used to only change on April 1) because of it (Scotland has it a quarter later, with their roads first getting numbered 25-06-22, rather than the 01-04-22 that they were in England):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Day
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quarter_days
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: GaryV on February 19, 2016, 06:53:42 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on February 19, 2016, 12:20:45 AM
That Christmas takes place at the same time as Saturnalia is a coincidence. Rather, it was chosen because it was 9 months after the Annunciation (the announcement to Mary that she was pregnant), which is on March 25. That said, the celebration of Christmas certainly does incorporate elements of Saturnalia as well as other pre-Christian traditions, notably Yule.
So who recorded the date of the Annunciation?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on February 19, 2016, 07:35:57 PM
Quote from: english si on February 19, 2016, 07:20:19 AM
Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.
If they're going to do that, might as well use astrophysics to calculate the actual day and either use that or define it as the closest Sunday.
Title: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 07:53:48 PM
Quote from: vdeane on February 19, 2016, 07:35:57 PM
Quote from: english si on February 19, 2016, 07:20:19 AM
Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.
If they're going to do that, might as well use astrophysics to calculate the actual day and either use that or define it as the closest Sunday.

I suspect the Archbishop was offered a substantial donation by Hallmark and Cadbury.

Some of the oldest churches predate all these folks' offices and wouldn't even bother laughing at this proposal.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on February 20, 2016, 05:40:18 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 19, 2016, 06:53:42 PMSo who recorded the date of the Annunciation?
Mary would have, but it was Tertullian about AD130 (120 years before the first reference to Saturnalia)'s linking it to the Crucifixion, and thus the spring equinox (co-incidentally), for philosophical/theological reasons rather than historical that stuck. He also had the winter solstice (again, co-incidence rather than deliberately that day) as Christmas explicitly.
Quote from: vdeane on February 19, 2016, 07:35:57 PMIf they're going to do that, might as well use astrophysics to calculate the actual day and either use that or define it as the closest Sunday.
So closest Sunday, rather than 2-days after (that I gave), the Julian date for the spring equinox of the 25th of March then.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on February 19, 2016, 07:53:48 PMI suspect the Archbishop was offered a substantial donation by Hallmark and Cadbury.
If the date is confusing, then people will buy cards/eggs at the wrong times and lose/eat them and then have to buy more... ;)

I have no idea what bought this move on from the ABC, but he's doing it. Probably something like complaints of confusion from people on the street. Good Friday and 'Easter Monday' are Public Holidays in the UK, and having them as moveable feasts makes a mess. No one seems to care about Ascension being moveable (40 days after Easter) because the Whitsun Bank Holiday is fixed to the last week of May and had it's name changed to "Late Spring Bank Holiday".
QuoteSome of the oldest churches predate all these folks' offices and wouldn't even bother laughing at this proposal.
I gather they are interested in discussing it, though clearly the 1700 years of settlement on this issue is going to play a big part in whether or not it happens.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 20, 2016, 09:33:26 AM
My point about the companies is that a standardized date simplifies the marketing plan.  I'm sure they would be on board.  It is the end of their half of the year (Halloween, Christmas, Valentine's Day, and Easter all sell candy and cards) so I'm sure they would lobby for a late Easter.  Also to get that preachy fellow with the gruesome wounds out of it–scares the kiddies who are hunting for Cadbury[emoji769] Brand Chocolate Easter Eggs.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: hbelkins on February 21, 2016, 09:03:23 PM
Quote from: english si on February 19, 2016, 07:20:19 AM
Archbishop Justin Welby announced earlier in the year that he's begun a conversation with the Pope, Patriarch, etc to fix Easter to the calendar (I'd presume March 27th for Easter 'Sunday'? Or maybe April 8th?). I'd imagine that the whole Sunday of it all will be more of an issue than the severing it from the Jewish calendar.

And you expect us non-Catholics to blindly follow what the Pope decrees?

That's the whole idea of why we're NOT Catholics.  :bigass:
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: JoePCool14 on February 24, 2016, 07:02:45 PM
Late to the party, but oh well.

Now for my opinions...

No.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on February 24, 2016, 07:27:24 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 21, 2016, 09:03:23 PMAnd you expect us non-Catholics to blindly follow what the Pope decrees?

That's the whole idea of why we're NOT Catholics.
Nor are Welby, the Patriarch and the various other denomination heads.

It would be an ecumenical decision, not a unilateral one.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: mrsman on February 26, 2016, 11:37:55 AM
In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.

So nobody should be surprised when Easter comes early -- it's listed on the calendar.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Rothman on February 26, 2016, 11:47:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 26, 2016, 11:37:55 AM
In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.


Tradition! (http://sundownfbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/tradition-1-fiddler-e1410565952100-300x237.jpg)
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on February 26, 2016, 03:36:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 26, 2016, 11:47:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 26, 2016, 11:37:55 AM
In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.


Tradition! (http://sundownfbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/tradition-1-fiddler-e1410565952100-300x237.jpg)
Tradition (1690 years and counting...) would be a clear reason not to change.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: TravelingBethelite on February 26, 2016, 03:54:00 PM
Oy vey. This disscussion has sure gone down the rabbit hole!  :bigass: *shot*
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on February 29, 2016, 09:34:12 AM
Today is February 29th, the day that appears only every four years, and when it does it messes up the calendar. For example, this year's causes July 25th to 'leap' over Sunday (hence 'leap day' which is today), causing the Xacobeo (Holy Year of Compostela) not to happen for another 5 years (last happened in 2010, will not happen until 2021). That is why my only calendar reform proposal is leaving the leap day out of the week (That's it, February 29th wouldn't be any particular week day), thus years would return to the same every 7 years instead of the current, irregular pattern of 6-5-6-11 years. This, however, would be unpopular among religious groups. As I've explained before, I find perennial calendars boring as every year is the same, as I like to see calendar days rotating through all week days.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 29, 2016, 09:53:43 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 26, 2016, 11:37:55 AM
In my view there is no need to standardize the celebration of Easter to the solar calendar.  Especially in this day and age, there are apps for determining the date of all of the religious holidays.

So nobody should be surprised when Easter comes early -- it's listed on the calendar.

LOL..."Apps"

Shows how dependent some people are on them.  People have been able to figure out the date of Easter way, way before cell phones existed, much less Apps!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on February 29, 2016, 10:45:41 AM
Happy Birthday, Frederick!
Title: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Pete from Boston on February 29, 2016, 10:59:09 AM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on February 29, 2016, 09:34:12 AM
That is why my only calendar reform proposal is leaving the leap day out of the week (That's it, February 29th wouldn't be any particular week day)

I like this idea because it would remind us that day what an arbitrary fiction any calendar is.  Not only is today not Monday, no day is really Monday.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: texaskdog on February 29, 2016, 11:54:05 AM
time is what you make of it.  why cant a whole country be in the same time zone?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on February 29, 2016, 12:16:50 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 29, 2016, 10:45:41 AMHappy Birthday, Frederick!
A friend of mine's great-granddad was born 120 years ago today. His first birthday was when he was 8 years old! He got the typical 'telegram'* from the Queen on reaching 100 years on his 24th birthday.

Hope you are all wearing yellow and blue! and don't forget that real life is for March!


*it's a card with her face, but hand signed. My grandparents get one every year on their anniversary now as they have been married over 60 years. They complain that it's the same card each year, though they aren't so ungrateful not to have it permanently on display.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on February 29, 2016, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on February 29, 2016, 11:54:05 AM
time is what you make of it.  why cant a whole country be in the same time zone?

No problem.  We'll just split up all the countries that occupy more than 15 degrees of longitude.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: freebrickproductions on February 29, 2016, 12:45:26 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 29, 2016, 12:27:36 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on February 29, 2016, 11:54:05 AM
time is what you make of it.  why cant a whole country be in the same time zone?

No problem.  We'll just split up all the countries that occupy more than 15 degrees of longitude.

I know the people who want to succeed from the US wouldn't mind that too much.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: leroys73 on February 29, 2016, 12:50:32 PM
My two cents:  Either do away with daylight savings time or use it all year. 

In our country, USA, it is very confusing when DST is in play and one is traveling when AZ and HI do not recognize DST nor the Navajo Reservation.  At one time Indiana did not.  Then when we change the clocks seems to change from time to time and politics.

Of course the time zone boundaries have changed over the years which for us old farts who have traveled all over the world it can make it even more confusing.

I see no sense in DST.  I personally like more daylight in the evening year round but I'd be happy if the time just stayed the same.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: GaryV on February 29, 2016, 06:45:04 PM
Are you being paid extra for working today?  Or have you donated your time to the boss?  (Obviously applies to salary, not hourly.)
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on February 29, 2016, 09:02:38 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 29, 2016, 06:45:04 PM
Are you being paid extra for working today?  Or have you donated your time to the boss?  (Obviously applies to salary, not hourly.)

My boss generously pays the same for 28- to 30-day months as they do for 31-day months.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: cl94 on February 29, 2016, 09:38:56 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 29, 2016, 06:45:04 PM
Are you being paid extra for working today?  Or have you donated your time to the boss?  (Obviously applies to salary, not hourly.)

I'm paid the same amount every other week regardless of how long a month is.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: leroys73 on March 03, 2016, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 29, 2016, 06:45:04 PM
Are you being paid extra for working today?  Or have you donated your time to the boss?  (Obviously applies to salary, not hourly.)

That is what I asked my wife as she is on a yearly salary and paid on the first and 15th.  So yes she worked for free on the 29th.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 03, 2016, 11:51:38 AM
I get paid every 2 weeks regardless, with my yearly salary split evenly into those paychecks.

It actually makes a bigger difference how many work days are in a year.  In a normal year where there's 365 days, and there's 261 work days (with 52 Saturdays & 52 Sundays), I get a bit less in my paycheck every 2 weeks than in a year where there's 260 work days (52 Saturdays and 53 Sundays or 53 Saturdays and 52 Sundays), or years where there is 259 work days (53 Saturdays and 53 Sundays).  But at the end of the year, what matters is that I earned my full salary for that year.

The calculations (using $50k and gross pay for easy math):
261 work days: $191.57 earned per day. 
260 work days: $192.31 
259 work days: $193.05

Quote from: leroys73 on March 03, 2016, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 29, 2016, 06:45:04 PM
Are you being paid extra for working today?  Or have you donated your time to the boss?  (Obviously applies to salary, not hourly.)

That is what I asked my wife as she is on a yearly salary and paid on the first and 15th.  So yes she worked for free on the 29th.

Actually, in theory, she gets paid for the 1st thru the 14th on the 15th, then paid for the 15th thru the 28th on the 1st.  She works for free every 29th, 30th and 31st.  If anything, she made out better in February, because she only worked for free 1 day that month, rather than 2 or 3 days in the other months!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Rothman on March 03, 2016, 12:22:43 PM
I'm pretty sure I don't work for free.  I get paid every two weeks.  Pay periods are 14 days no matter what.  It's not like I get a partial end-of-year check if the last pay period ends before December 31st, or that I get docked if a pay period doesn't start right on January 1st.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: leroys73 on March 06, 2016, 10:49:44 AM


That is what I asked my wife as she is on a yearly salary and paid on the first and 15th.  So yes she worked for free on the 29th.
[/quote]

Actually, in theory, she gets paid for the 1st thru the 14th on the 15th, then paid for the 15th thru the 28th on the 1st.  She works for free every 29th, 30th and 31st.  If anything, she made out better in February, because she only worked for free 1 day that month, rather than 2 or 3 days in the other months!
[/quote]

It is still one more day this year.  Her salary is divided by 24 pay periods.  She is on a salary for 12 months so instead of 365 she has 366 days.  Yes, she has worked/traveled on Saturday and Sunday before plus 10 to 12 hour days are common.  Hope she gets a bonus this year for that extra day.  I'll help her spend it.  :bigass:

I am glad I am retired.  My last 35 years it did not matter for the month of February as I was contracted for a specific number of days per year.       
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: texaskdog on March 06, 2016, 09:38:27 PM
Should be year round DST. 
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Road Hog on March 07, 2016, 01:31:44 AM
I would be OK with eliminating two time zones in North America, combining Central and Eastern into UTC +5 and combining Mountain and Pacific into UTC+7. Plus eliminating DST, since Central and Pacific would in effect be on DST year-round in this arrangement.

A radical move would be to create a single time zone coast to coast centered on the Central-Mountain boundary, where Pacific would turn the clock 1:30 ahead and Eastern would shift 1:30 back. That would mitigate disruption of living patterns on each coast to a degree. But I do not like half-hour incremental shifts off of UTC like Newfoundland has.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on March 07, 2016, 09:42:11 AM
^^ So you would put current Eastern and Central zones in the same time zone as most of the -stans and current Mountain and Pacific zones the same as Southeast Asia?  X-( (I assume you meant UTC-5 and UTC-7)
Quote from: texaskdog on March 06, 2016, 09:38:27 PM
Should be year round DST. 

I myself live in permanent DST. I'm currently in UTC+1, it should be UTC as I live, to the surprise of those that think the Western hemisphere is only the Americas, sightly West of Greenwich meridian.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on March 07, 2016, 12:31:25 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on March 07, 2016, 09:42:11 AM
... to the surprise of those that think the Western hemisphere is only the Americas, sightly West of Greenwich meridian.

Depends whether you're talking about cultural and historical hemisphere, or strictly following the meridians.  Using "western hemisphere" to mean that half of the world that lies west of the parts known to Europeans, Asians, and Africans up to 1492 is not wrong and often useful.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Scott5114 on March 12, 2016, 12:44:21 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on February 15, 2016, 10:34:41 AM
It's not that big a deal in those environments where widely-dispersed operations already result in folks standardizing on UTC, but for nontechnical conversational purposes, terms like "today" and "tomorrow" become potentially ambiguous if the calendar day changes around high noon, at tea-time, etc.

Casinos operate around something called a "gaming day". Since on weekends, 12:00am local time is in the middle of peak hours, all of the paperwork is continued to be dated with the prior civil date until an arbitrary time in the morning. (Because this also affects federally-required records required to deter money laundering, I'm actually legally prohibited from disclosing the exact time.) When I worked graveyard, our shift ended one hour after the date change, leading to a commonly-asked question toward the end of the shift being "Is it tomorrow yet?"
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on March 12, 2016, 06:54:16 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 07, 2016, 12:31:25 PMDepends whether you're talking about cultural and historical hemisphere
WTF are they?

Oh, it's a specifically US English definition that has creeped into the language by the geographically ignorant (which you can reasonably expect no one on this forum to be) who forget that western Europe/Africa are west of the the arbitrary divisor between west and east when it comes to longitude. It's use has, unsurprisingly not made it to European English, most of the native speakers of which are in the Western Hemisphere and thus will react strongly to a pointlessly long term for 'the Americas' that is also seeks to reclassify, if not deny the existence of, the place where they have spent most of their lives...
QuoteUsing "western hemisphere" to mean that half of the world that lies west of the parts known to Europeans, Asians, and Africans up to 1492 is not wrong
It is.

Even ignoring the massive historical error you've made...

Also, non of the US dictionary definitions mention Australia, New Zealand, etc that you have just co-opted in (with similar historical problems re: discovery - especially wrt Asians) with using the definition of "The New World" to describe the silly verbose way of saying "America" or "The Americas" that you use.
Quoteand often useful.
When?

"The Americas" are shorter, less confusing and more precise.


The division between 'western' and 'eastern' hemispheres is pretty pointless, other than as a cool geographic factoid if you are near the meridan (which I walked across Tuesday afternoon and rode a train across back to the Western Hemisphere on Tuesday evening, without really knowing or caring* - I was more concerned about the nearby Middlesex/Essex historic border when traveling on foot (and got very worried I'd walked too far when I reached signs saying 'Essex' as I hadn't realised that I would leave Greater London on my travels) than the meridian.

*obviously my geography geekiness means I know, and this idiotic US definition getting used in this forum is the only reason I care.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on March 13, 2016, 04:33:59 PM
Well, what do you guys call "that part of the world that isn't the Americas"?

I notice that there's no controversy with respect to the northern and southern hemispheres, probably because the equator actually means something, whereas the prime meridian is arguably one of the most useless things ever invented in the history of geography (as was only placed where it is because Britain had an empire at the time and considered itself the center of the world, something that the US considers itself today), which probably led to the co-opting of the eastern and western hemispheres to mean "America's domain" (don't forget that by virtue of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny, we effectively claim every spec of land on both continents) and "everywhere else".  Also note that the dispute really with respect to the meridian, and not the international date line (which at least has meaning).
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: english si on March 13, 2016, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 13, 2016, 04:33:59 PMWell, what do you guys call "that part of the world that isn't the Americas"
The Old World? Eurasia-Africa? The world that isn't the Americas? OK, the first two ignore Oceania (though looking at wikipedia, 'New World' apparently ignores it too), but it never comes up this side of the Atlantic.

Nor have I seen any of you guys use "eastern hemisphere" in this way until you just used it then when you've been backed into a corner trying to justify using the term "western hemisphere" when "the Americas" is a more precise (as you mean a continent, rather than literally half the world's surface), accurate (as you are not suggesting that I, in the Western Hemisphere, am in the 'western hemisphere') and succinct (far fewer letters and syllables) term!
QuoteI notice that there's no controversy with respect to the northern and southern hemispheres, probably because the equator actually means something, whereas the prime meridian is arguably one of the most useless things ever invented in the history of geography
Indeed. See the bottom paragraph of my last post.

And the uselessness of dividing the world in half at the Prime meridian is exactly why using the term "western hemisphere" isn't useful like kkt insists it is!

Quote(as was only placed where it is because Britain had an empire at the time and considered itself the center of the world, something that the US considers itself today)
Yes and no. It was partially placed there as one of the world's best observatories was there, partially as the Brits had come up with the notion of having some sort of co-ordinated time to measure longitude in the first place (an Englishman invented a clock that would stay accurate at sea), and the USA (and other powers at the time) went with Greenwich over Paris. Even if we were making it up today, the 180 line is nearly the best place to put it to miss land for where the Date Line would be.

If it was about British self importance, you'd have thought that the 0 line would have gone through London or Westminster, rather than some parkland on its fringe? (even in the 1920s, the urban area hadn't surrounded Greenwich Park and Black Heath).
Quotewhich probably led to the co-opting of the eastern and western hemispheres to mean "America's domain" (don't forget that by virtue of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny, we effectively claim every spec of land on both continents) and "everywhere else".
Except you don't use 'eastern hemisphere' to mean 'everything else' as you don't use the term at all...
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Desert Man on March 14, 2016, 08:18:14 PM
Daylight savings time began Sunday morning and I'm trying to get used to later daylight in the evening (the extra hour added in there). I like the idea of time zones for each 15 degrees longitude starting from 0 meridian (Greenwich time) in the namesake observatory in London, England, UK. Originally they were enacted by support from railroad companies in the US and Europe and what we have is a global 24-hour time zone map, plus the International Date Line straddle most of the 180th meridian opposite the Greenwich meridian. It's always tomorrow west of the IDL (Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Siberian Russia, the Philipines and east Asia).
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: freebrickproductions on March 15, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Quote from: Desert Man on March 14, 2016, 08:18:14 PM
Daylight savings time began Sunday morning and I'm trying to get used to later daylight in the evening (the extra hour added in there). I like the idea of time zones for each 15 degrees longitude starting from 0 meridian (Greenwich time) in the namesake observatory in London, England, UK. Originally they were enacted by support from railroad companies in the US and Europe and what we have is a global 24-hour time zone map, plus the International Date Line straddle most of the 180th meridian opposite the Greenwich meridian. It's always tomorrow west of the IDL (Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Siberian Russia, the Philipines and east Asia).
Would this mean that you'd constantly be going back in time if you kept heading east?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Road Hog on March 24, 2016, 01:23:44 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on March 15, 2016, 11:58:13 AM
Quote from: Desert Man on March 14, 2016, 08:18:14 PM
Daylight savings time began Sunday morning and I'm trying to get used to later daylight in the evening (the extra hour added in there). I like the idea of time zones for each 15 degrees longitude starting from 0 meridian (Greenwich time) in the namesake observatory in London, England, UK. Originally they were enacted by support from railroad companies in the US and Europe and what we have is a global 24-hour time zone map, plus the International Date Line straddle most of the 180th meridian opposite the Greenwich meridian. It's always tomorrow west of the IDL (Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Siberian Russia, the Philipines and east Asia).
Would this mean that you'd constantly be going back in time if you kept heading east?
No, because you'll constantly be hitting midnight while circling the globe and entering the next day before you cross the date line and snap back.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: geek11111 on October 01, 2023, 05:21:41 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on February 12, 2016, 05:06:56 PM
In China in addition to Beijing time (UTC+8) the Xinjiang Uyghur government has set an unofficial time zone more consistent with its longitude, UTC+6.

And yes, here in Spain we are in permanent DST, but we are not constantly tired, we simply adjusted our customs accordingly. Right now it's 11:07 p.m. (5:07 p.m. Eastern), if we were in the correct time zone I'd probably go to sleep at this hour, maybe a bit earlier.


Do Spanish start work at a later hours, like 10 or 11am?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: 1995hoo on October 01, 2023, 05:33:36 PM
Holy threadbump, Batman.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Scott5114 on October 01, 2023, 05:34:53 PM
No kidding. The last time someone posted to this thread, Barack Obama was President.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: 1995hoo on October 01, 2023, 05:47:53 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 01, 2023, 05:34:53 PM
No kidding. The last time someone posted to this thread, Barack Obama was President.

There's probably some sort of time-related joke there somewhere, but my reaction to geek11111's post was more like the way the Aflac duck shook its head in confusion in the ad with Yogi Berra from some years back (you know, "If you get hurt and miss work, it won't hurt to miss work").
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Max Rockatansky on October 01, 2023, 05:59:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 01, 2023, 05:34:53 PM
No kidding. The last time someone posted to this thread, Barack Obama was President.

Perhaps the "radical plan" is time compression?  The past, present and future all existing simultaneously?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: freebrickproductions on October 01, 2023, 11:56:01 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 01, 2023, 05:59:45 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 01, 2023, 05:34:53 PM
No kidding. The last time someone posted to this thread, Barack Obama was President.

Perhaps the "radical plan" is time compression?  The past, present and future all existing simultaneously?
I mean, let's be real here, they all already do. Time and the associated concepts of the "past" and "future" are fully human-made social constructs* and do not exist to the universe, it is always just the "present". Everything that is happening is happening now, everything that has ever happened happened now, and everything that will ever happen will happen now. The universe does not care about the system of dates and times that some random creatures on a planet made based on the rotation of said planet and how long it takes for said plant to revolve around its star.

*Assuming intelligent life exists elsewhere, they presumably would have their own system of date and time, likely based on their own planet's characteristics. Assuming any of said other life is able to do interstellar travel, I could imagine trying to sync-up times between different planets would be quite a chore!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Max Rockatansky on October 02, 2023, 12:02:39 AM
I'll be surprised if anyone gets the reference I was going for, admittedly it is obscure.  But if we want to turn this into conversation about GR or a possibly Grand Unified Theory it might be interesting.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Now that the thread is bumped, and I know it exists, I'll pitch in my two cents:

Time zones don't technically need to exist, but they'd totally be a pain to remove for little benefit, so it isn't worth it. The only reason we have them is because noon is associated with the sun being highest in the sky; any old time could have been assigned to it besides 12 PM.

If a child grew up in an environment where the sun came up at 7 PM everyday and set at 11 AM, they'd get used to it; it would be normal for them. Therefore, if different parts of the world do this, we can all run on one time system; it's just that the personal definition of sunset and sunrise changes based on where a person is. It would cost tons of money and nobody would want to do this, so it probably won't happen.

Time is very real, but the number we start counting from is arbitrary.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2023, 02:17:09 AM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Time is very real, but the number we start counting from is arbitrary.

I have been told from people that were there that January 1, 1970, was, in fact, very real.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 07:10:31 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 02, 2023, 02:17:09 AM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Time is very real, but the number we start counting from is arbitrary.

I have been told from people that were there that January 1, 1970, was, in fact, very real.
But there was nothing before that!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 07:21:31 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 02, 2023, 12:02:39 AM
I'll be surprised if anyone gets the reference I was going for, admittedly it is obscure.  But if we want to turn this into conversation about GR or a possibly Grand Unified Theory it might be interesting.
You don't need to go that far. Even special relativity considers time as a local variable. A lot of consideration is given to the concept of "simultaneous" - which doesn't work even in special relativity.
So it makes total sense to assign different local clock settings to areas moving with respect to each other - and areas on the earth surface experience relative moves due to planet rotation.
we do properly account for that fact in longitude by introducing time zones, but that is not the case for latitude.
as it was pointed out in many DST threads, seasonal effects are more pronounced closer to poles and less so near the equator.  So to account for time dilation in latitudal direction, DST zones can be introduced in N-S direction, with 0 DST change near the equator, 1 hour further north, and possibly 2 and even 3 hours of DST up there.
Zis iz sajens in action!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: MikeTheActuary on October 02, 2023, 08:28:23 AM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Therefore, if different parts of the world do this, we can all run on one time system; it's just that the personal definition of sunset and sunrise changes based on where a person is. It would cost tons of money and nobody would want to do this, so it probably won't happen.

Probably the two biggest stumbling blocks to abolishing time zones are:

Members of my team at work can be found in India, England, eastern North America, and British Columbia.  Coordinating meetings would be MUCH easier if we were on a common time zone (or if folks were more conversant in UTC, at least).  However, awareness of local time zones does come in handy when evaluating whether a meeting time is "too early" or "too late" for some folks.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 02, 2023, 08:28:23 AM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Therefore, if different parts of the world do this, we can all run on one time system; it's just that the personal definition of sunset and sunrise changes based on where a person is. It would cost tons of money and nobody would want to do this, so it probably won't happen.

Probably the two biggest stumbling blocks to abolishing time zones are:


  • Potential headaches if the date changes during "waking hours".  In some places, if you have a meeting on "Wednesday" the functional day that the meeting occurs will depend on the hour associated with that Wednesday meeting.
  • Many people in Western societies have near-religious belief in that certain things should happen when certain numbers appear on the clock.  Lunch should be at noon.  Carson should be on at 10:30 or 11:30pm.  Et cetera.  Such arguments always prove to be an obstacle whenever the potential abolition of DST is discussed.
Members of my team at work can be found in India, England, eastern North America, and British Columbia.  Coordinating meetings would be MUCH easier if we were on a common time zone (or if folks were more conversant in UTC, at least).  However, awareness of local time zones does come in handy when evaluating whether a meeting time is "too early" or "too late" for some folks.
In terms of "waking hours", you can get down to 2 or 3 time zones. Two major dividers, Atlantic and Pacific, make placing those "time superzone" boundaries relatively easy so that date change occurs during "sleeping hours". Those who are working night shifts may deal with date change anyway. 
At least, having single time zone for Americas isn't totally crazy from my perspective.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: tmoore952 on October 02, 2023, 01:29:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 02, 2023, 08:28:23 AM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Therefore, if different parts of the world do this, we can all run on one time system; it's just that the personal definition of sunset and sunrise changes based on where a person is. It would cost tons of money and nobody would want to do this, so it probably won't happen.

Probably the two biggest stumbling blocks to abolishing time zones are:


  • Potential headaches if the date changes during "waking hours".  In some places, if you have a meeting on "Wednesday" the functional day that the meeting occurs will depend on the hour associated with that Wednesday meeting.
  • Many people in Western societies have near-religious belief in that certain things should happen when certain numbers appear on the clock.  Lunch should be at noon.  Carson should be on at 10:30 or 11:30pm.  Et cetera.  Such arguments always prove to be an obstacle whenever the potential abolition of DST is discussed.
Members of my team at work can be found in India, England, eastern North America, and British Columbia.  Coordinating meetings would be MUCH easier if we were on a common time zone (or if folks were more conversant in UTC, at least).  However, awareness of local time zones does come in handy when evaluating whether a meeting time is "too early" or "too late" for some folks.
In terms of "waking hours", you can get down to 2 or 3 time zones. Two major dividers, Atlantic and Pacific, make placing those "time superzone" boundaries relatively easy so that date change occurs during "sleeping hours". Those who are working night shifts may deal with date change anyway. 
At least, having single time zone for Americas isn't totally crazy from my perspective.

My experiences traveling in Alaska is that they have one time zone for the entire state. At their far northern latitude, and all the way down the panhandle.

And IIRC, it's the same way in China, which is comparable to the lower 48 in E-W extent.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: citrus on October 02, 2023, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 08:44:00 AM
In terms of "waking hours", you can get down to 2 or 3 time zones. Two major dividers, Atlantic and Pacific, make placing those "time superzone" boundaries relatively easy so that date change occurs during "sleeping hours". Those who are working night shifts may deal with date change anyway. 
At least, having single time zone for Americas isn't totally crazy from my perspective.

The BeReal social media app, which is based on prompting everyone at the same time to take a picture, effectively has four time zones: Americas, Europe, West Asia, and East Asia.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on October 02, 2023, 02:09:22 PM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Now that the thread is bumped, and I know it exists, I'll pitch in my two cents:

Time zones don't technically need to exist, but they'd totally be a pain to remove for little benefit, so it isn't worth it. The only reason we have them is because noon is associated with the sun being highest in the sky; any old time could have been assigned to it besides 12 PM.

If a child grew up in an environment where the sun came up at 7 PM everyday and set at 11 AM, they'd get used to it; it would be normal for them. Therefore, if different parts of the world do this, we can all run on one time system; it's just that the personal definition of sunset and sunrise changes based on where a person is. It would cost tons of money and nobody would want to do this, so it probably won't happen.

Time is very real, but the number we start counting from is arbitrary.

Instead of looking up what time it is at whatever other longitude I might need to telephone, instead I'd have to look up when to call them when they're not asleep or at work.  Little gain there.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: GaryV on October 02, 2023, 02:27:59 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 02, 2023, 08:28:23 AM
Members of my team at work can be found in India, England, eastern North America, and British Columbia.  Coordinating meetings would be MUCH easier if we were on a common time zone (or if folks were more conversant in UTC, at least).  However, awareness of local time zones does come in handy when evaluating whether a meeting time is "too early" or "too late" for some folks.
I worked in a company with offices in Michigan, Pennsylvania, California and India. When people from all areas needed to be in a meeting, we scheduled it for 10:00 Eastern time. It didn't matter what the clock said - it could have said 1300 or 1400 Zulu. But that wouldn't change the fact that those in CA would be attending just as daylight started, and those in India just as daylight ended, or at least not "too long" past that. Assuming that most people work in daylight hours, this was a compromise on the part of the Indian office that they could stay late for meetings when needed, but not "too late".

Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kkt on October 02, 2023, 02:41:14 PM
Companies and organizations that operate worldwide often use UTC for many purposes.  Computer networks, the military, airlines that fly internationally, astronomers...
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kphoger on October 02, 2023, 03:24:42 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 02, 2023, 02:27:59 PM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 02, 2023, 08:28:23 AM
Members of my team at work can be found in India, England, eastern North America, and British Columbia.  Coordinating meetings would be MUCH easier if we were on a common time zone (or if folks were more conversant in UTC, at least).  However, awareness of local time zones does come in handy when evaluating whether a meeting time is "too early" or "too late" for some folks.

I worked in a company with offices in Michigan, Pennsylvania, California and India. When people from all areas needed to be in a meeting, we scheduled it for 10:00 Eastern time. It didn't matter what the clock said - it could have said 1300 or 1400 Zulu. But that wouldn't change the fact that those in CA would be attending just as daylight started, and those in India just as daylight ended, or at least not "too long" past that. Assuming that most people work in daylight hours, this was a compromise on the part of the Indian office that they could stay late for meetings when needed, but not "too late".

At my work, dispatch was outsourced to India several years ago.  That whole department serves the needs of customers like us in the USA.  So they operate by hours that work out great in the USA but must be awful in India:  normal hours of operation are in the middle of the night for them.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: CNGL-Leudimin on October 02, 2023, 03:39:48 PM
Quote from: geek11111 on October 01, 2023, 05:21:41 PM
Do Spanish start work at a later hours, like 10 or 11am?

Holy moly, you quoted a post from almost 7 years before you registered. At the time I didn't have a job, but now I do and I enter at 8 am, so nothing from the other world. Some shops don't open until 10 am as you said.

In the meantime I decided to ditch the "forum time" and now I use my time zone. I thus keep track of Big Rig Steve using it (e.g. he says he has a delivery appointment at 2 p.m. Central, I echo that as 9 p.m. Central Europe). This also allows me to show no actual time travel occurs at the "spacetime rifts" (i.e. time zone boundaries), and no paradoxes occur either (i.e when a stream crosses a time zone boundary Westbound less than one hour after starting or before ending).
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: LilianaUwU on October 02, 2023, 04:02:23 PM
inb4 lock
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Max Rockatansky on October 02, 2023, 04:03:49 PM
If we are destroying time zones couldn't you just go back before the lock whenever you wanted?  That or pulling the pre-locked thread forward through time to exist paradoxically with the locked iteration?
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kphoger on October 02, 2023, 04:04:41 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on October 02, 2023, 04:02:23 PM
inb4 lock

I say we put all of North America on a single time zone, but then let each individual state choose from a goody bag of DST variations.  New Jersey gets to be on NAST+DST1, while Oregon gets to be on NAST+DST4.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Billy F 1988 on October 02, 2023, 04:26:51 PM
Oh, brother! I'll just go with a handy handheld sun dial, thx!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: geek11111 on October 02, 2023, 05:10:27 PM
Quote from: tmoore952 on October 02, 2023, 01:29:44 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 02, 2023, 08:28:23 AM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Therefore, if different parts of the world do this, we can all run on one time system; it's just that the personal definition of sunset and sunrise changes based on where a person is. It would cost tons of money and nobody would want to do this, so it probably won't happen.

Probably the two biggest stumbling blocks to abolishing time zones are:


       
  • Potential headaches if the date changes during "waking hours".  In some places, if you have a meeting on "Wednesday" the functional day that the meeting occurs will depend on the hour associated with that Wednesday meeting.
  • Many people in Western societies have near-religious belief in that certain things should happen when certain numbers appear on the clock.  Lunch should be at noon.  Carson should be on at 10:30 or 11:30pm.  Et cetera.  Such arguments always prove to be an obstacle whenever the potential abolition of DST is discussed.
Members of my team at work can be found in India, England, eastern North America, and British Columbia.  Coordinating meetings would be MUCH easier if we were on a common time zone (or if folks were more conversant in UTC, at least).  However, awareness of local time zones does come in handy when evaluating whether a meeting time is "too early" or "too late" for some folks.
In terms of "waking hours", you can get down to 2 or 3 time zones. Two major dividers, Atlantic and Pacific, make placing those "time superzone" boundaries relatively easy so that date change occurs during "sleeping hours". Those who are working night shifts may deal with date change anyway. 
At least, having single time zone for Americas isn't totally crazy from my perspective.

My experiences traveling in Alaska is that they have one time zone for the entire state. At their far northern latitude, and all the way down the panhandle.

And IIRC, it's the same way in China, which is comparable to the lower 48 in E-W extent.


China nominally has one but, in practice, they have two. The second one is 2 hours behind the so-called China standard time.
In far west China, people shift schedule two hours behind. So their business hours are 10 to 8, lunch break is 2 to 4, and go to bed at 12 to 1 AM.
This is essentially like working from 8-6, lunch from 12-2, go to bed at 10-11.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: vdeane on October 02, 2023, 09:04:31 PM
I propose that instead of standardizing time zones, we instead let every property have its own.  Own a house?  Congratulations, you get to set a time zone (down to the second, if you want)!  Go to work?  Your employer sets the time there.  At a business?  The owner sets the time zone while you shop.  Rent?  Your landlord is time god.

This will work because everyone has smartphones.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 09:23:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 02, 2023, 09:04:31 PM
I propose that instead of standardizing time zones, we instead let every property have its own.  Own a house?  Congratulations, you get to set a time zone (down to the second, if you want)!  Go to work?  Your employer sets the time there.  At a business?  The owner sets the time zone while you shop.  Rent?  Your landlord is time god.

This will work because everyone has smartphones.
Landlord: now we have 20 days months and 240 day years. Congratulations, you rent went down by 2% a year!
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: 1995hoo on October 02, 2023, 09:31:25 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 02, 2023, 09:04:31 PM
I propose that instead of standardizing time zones, we instead let every property have its own.  Own a house?  Congratulations, you get to set a time zone (down to the second, if you want)!  Go to work?  Your employer sets the time there.  At a business?  The owner sets the time zone while you shop.  Rent?  Your landlord is time god.

This will work because everyone has smartphones.

Sounds like the time Kramer decided not to wait for DST and just set his watch ahead immediately.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Scott5114 on October 02, 2023, 10:55:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 02, 2023, 04:04:41 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on October 02, 2023, 04:02:23 PM
inb4 lock

I say we put all of North America on a single time zone, but then let each individual state choose from a goody bag of DST variations.  New Jersey gets to be on NAST+DST1, while Oregon gets to be on NAST+DST4.

How About having the North American Time Zone System, in all 15 North American countries, the time zones will be, the U.S., Mexico, Canada, Alaska, Yukon, Northwest Terrtiories, Nunavut, Quebec, Greenland, Iceland, Alanland, Hawaii, Bermuda, Belize, and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, not central america, caribbean, or south america because i considered them other continents, and i would also like to have to have the time zone system in Europe and Australia, in Europe will have them in every country, like the UK, France or Spain, and in Australia will have them also in every country, like in Australia (Nation), or New Zealand, and this time zones can also be in Antarctica, and maybe South Africa, because in Antarctica theres only 1 or 2 countries, and about 5 or 6 Territories, and in South Africa because it looks like Europe, Australia, or North America, and those continents like North America, Europe, and Australia do look alike along with Antarctica and South Africa, theres my plan
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: freebrickproductions on October 03, 2023, 01:18:00 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 02, 2023, 10:55:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 02, 2023, 04:04:41 PM
Quote from: LilianaUwU on October 02, 2023, 04:02:23 PM
inb4 lock

I say we put all of North America on a single time zone, but then let each individual state choose from a goody bag of DST variations.  New Jersey gets to be on NAST+DST1, while Oregon gets to be on NAST+DST4.

How About having the North American Time Zone System, in all 15 North American countries, the time zones will be, the U.S., Mexico, Canada, Alaska, Yukon, Northwest Terrtiories, Nunavut, Quebec, Greenland, Iceland, Alanland, Hawaii, Bermuda, Belize, and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, not central america, caribbean, or south america because i considered them other continents, and i would also like to have to have the time zone system in Europe and Australia, in Europe will have them in every country, like the UK, France or Spain, and in Australia will have them also in every country, like in Australia (Nation), or New Zealand, and this time zones can also be in Antarctica, and maybe South Africa, because in Antarctica theres only 1 or 2 countries, and about 5 or 6 Territories, and in South Africa because it looks like Europe, Australia, or North America, and those continents like North America, Europe, and Australia do look alike along with Antarctica and South Africa, theres my plan

:clap:

Would go well with an interstate highway system through all of the countries too.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Max Rockatansky on October 03, 2023, 08:35:14 AM
I'm opposed to removing AST (Alan Standard Time).
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: kphoger on October 03, 2023, 11:09:18 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 02, 2023, 10:55:36 PM
How About having the North American Time Zone System, in all 15 North American countries, the time zones will be, the U.S., Mexico, Canada, Alaska, Yukon, Northwest Terrtiories, Nunavut, Quebec, Greenland, Iceland, Alanland, Hawaii, Bermuda, Belize, and Saint Pierre and Miquelon, not central america, caribbean, or south america because i considered them other continents, and i would also like to have to have the time zone system in Europe and Australia, in Europe will have them in every country, like the UK, France or Spain, and in Australia will have them also in every country, like in Australia (Nation), or New Zealand, and this time zones can also be in Antarctica, and maybe South Africa, because in Antarctica theres only 1 or 2 countries, and about 5 or 6 Territories, and in South Africa because it looks like Europe, Australia, or North America, and those continents like North America, Europe, and Australia do look alike along with Antarctica and South Africa, theres my plan

You should start a separate thread about that.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: MikeTheActuary on October 03, 2023, 11:35:14 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 02, 2023, 08:44:00 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 02, 2023, 08:28:23 AM
Quote from: Hobart on October 02, 2023, 01:05:10 AM
Therefore, if different parts of the world do this, we can all run on one time system; it's just that the personal definition of sunset and sunrise changes based on where a person is. It would cost tons of money and nobody would want to do this, so it probably won't happen.

Probably the two biggest stumbling blocks to abolishing time zones are:


  • Potential headaches if the date changes during "waking hours".  In some places, if you have a meeting on "Wednesday" the functional day that the meeting occurs will depend on the hour associated with that Wednesday meeting.
  • Many people in Western societies have near-religious belief in that certain things should happen when certain numbers appear on the clock.  Lunch should be at noon.  Carson should be on at 10:30 or 11:30pm.  Et cetera.  Such arguments always prove to be an obstacle whenever the potential abolition of DST is discussed.
Members of my team at work can be found in India, England, eastern North America, and British Columbia.  Coordinating meetings would be MUCH easier if we were on a common time zone (or if folks were more conversant in UTC, at least).  However, awareness of local time zones does come in handy when evaluating whether a meeting time is "too early" or "too late" for some folks.
In terms of "waking hours", you can get down to 2 or 3 time zones. Two major dividers, Atlantic and Pacific, make placing those "time superzone" boundaries relatively easy so that date change occurs during "sleeping hours". Those who are working night shifts may deal with date change anyway. 
At least, having single time zone for Americas isn't totally crazy from my perspective.


I agree, but complaints from people upset that "It'll be dark at 8am", or "I work 9 to 5, but in winter sunrise will be after 9 / I'll have to change my work hours" or "my prime time TV shows will now start at 6pm" will keep even this simplification from ever happening.

Some folks have very strong desires that certain things typically happen when certain numbers appear on the clock.  Time zones and DST help satisfy those expectations.  Apparently changing those expectations (e.g. it's OK for lunchtime to be when the clock reads 1700 hours despite the sun being near its zenith) is unthinkable for many.
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: 1995hoo on October 03, 2023, 11:53:22 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 03, 2023, 11:35:14 AM
I agree, but complaints from people upset that "It'll be dark at 8am", or "I work 9 to 5, but in winter sunrise will be after 9 / I'll have to change my work hours" or "my prime time TV shows will now start at 6pm" will keep even this simplification from ever happening.

Some folks have very strong desires that certain things typically happen when certain numbers appear on the clock.  Time zones and DST help satisfy those expectations.  Apparently changing those expectations (e.g. it's OK for lunchtime to be when the clock reads 1700 hours despite the sun being near its zenith) is unthinkable for many.

Heh. My mother just returned from a trip to Arizona, Utah, and Nevada. One of her e-mails remarked on how early the sun set in Arizona. Of course that's due to the state's non-observance of DST, for which there are good reasons, but it underscored to me how people become used to the idea of certain things happening at certain times.

With that said, I can't help but wonder how people who feel that strongly about the time of day would deal with travel to the Southern Hemisphere and the reversed seasons, such as Christmas coming right at the beginning of summer. (I've never been to the Southern Hemisphere, but to me that particular example might not feel so odd because I spent enough Christmases in Florida between 2010 and 2019 such that I no longer find 75° weather on Christmas to be odd, but people from further north who always celebrate it at home might be confounded.)
Title: Re: The radical plan to destroy time zones
Post by: Takumi on October 03, 2023, 12:57:23 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 03, 2023, 11:53:22 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on October 03, 2023, 11:35:14 AM
I agree, but complaints from people upset that "It'll be dark at 8am", or "I work 9 to 5, but in winter sunrise will be after 9 / I'll have to change my work hours" or "my prime time TV shows will now start at 6pm" will keep even this simplification from ever happening.

Some folks have very strong desires that certain things typically happen when certain numbers appear on the clock.  Time zones and DST help satisfy those expectations.  Apparently changing those expectations (e.g. it's OK for lunchtime to be when the clock reads 1700 hours despite the sun being near its zenith) is unthinkable for many.

Heh. My mother just returned from a trip to Arizona, Utah, and Nevada. One of her e-mails remarked on how early the sun set in Arizona. Of course that's due to the state's non-observance of DST, for which there are good reasons, but it underscored to me how people become used to the idea of certain things happening at certain times.

With that said, I can't help but wonder how people who feel that strongly about the time of day would deal with travel to the Southern Hemisphere and the reversed seasons, such as Christmas coming right at the beginning of summer. (I've never been to the Southern Hemisphere, but to me that particular example might not feel so odd because I spent enough Christmases in Florida between 2010 and 2019 such that I no longer find 75° weather on Christmas to be odd, but people from further north who always celebrate it at home might be confounded.)

It was interesting going to the mall in South Africa in early November and seeing that Christmas merchandise was being sold. It was even more interesting that said Christmas merchandise was still red and green and winter themed despite it being spring and summer there during this time.

Also they don't observe DST so the sunrise there was very early, like fully light by 5 AM in spring, but sunset was fairly reasonable, around 7 PM.