This supports what a lot of us were already thinking!
http://yellowhammernews.com/faithandculture/move-alabama-reasons-stay-left-lane/
QuoteWe've all been there. You're driving down the interstate and suddenly come up on someone who's going much slower than you are. If you're both in the right lane, you just casually ease into the left lane and go around them. But what if there are slower drivers in both lanes? That's when the road rage hits.
Well, we now have scientific proof that driving too slow in the left lane is not only harmful to drivers' mental states, but also to the physical safety of everyone on the road.
New research shows that two cars riding side-by-side going the same speed can result in major traffic buildups.
Additionally, studies reveal that some left-lane-drivers are misguided in believing they are actually keeping people safer by slowing down traffic. In reality, cars going 5 mph slower than the surrounding traffic have a greater chance of causing accidents than cars going 5 mph faster, and having slow drivers in both lanes often results in faster drivers weaving in and out of traffic, drastically increasing the risk of accidents. The research shows that slowing down and changing lanes multiple times can be far more dangerous than speeding, causing almost 10 percent of the total accidents on highways.
Reducing speed limits in general doesn't seem to help either. On the German Autobahn, speed limits are often nonexistent, but accident and fatality rates are lower on the Autobahn than on U.S. highways. Research indicates one of the primary reasons for this is that the Germans are much stricter on lane discipline — meaning traffic is separated by speed, with slower cars staying out of the way of faster ones.
This, not speed, is what cops really should be enforcing on our freeways.
Sounds like the impatient fucks weaving in and out are the cause.
Quote from: bahnburner on May 17, 2016, 02:32:33 AM
This supports what a lot of us were already thinking!
Number one reason to mistrust it...
Quote from: Brandon on May 17, 2016, 07:20:22 AM
This, not speed, is what cops really should be enforcing on our freeways.
Amen.
But, of course, traffic enforcement is 100% about $$ and 0% about safety, and as this is so subjective, and some traffic cop spewing "you were going 83 in a 70" is so easy. Much easier than working for a living.
Fact is that it is simple common courtesy and common sense to KEEP RIGHT.
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2016, 07:21:06 AM
Sounds like the impatient fucks weaving in and out are the cause.
The cause are the LLDs. The result is the weaving.
One cause is still unreasonably slow speed limits set for revenue enhancement. Let engineers set the speed limits.
Another factor has to be governors on many vehicles. If companies aren't willing to remove them, could they be engineered to allow short bursts of speed to make passing safer?
There is actually more than one problem in here.
besides left lane hoggers, there is right lane obsession; there is traffic volume requiring use of more than one lane, often right lane is in significantly worse shape due to higher volume of heavy trucks - which usually relatively slow and tend to keep right.
And any simple problem has a simple, obvious and completely wrong solution...
By the way, someone needs to release their parking brake and move over: "new research" link goes to Nature article which was published in 2012. Words "move over", "right" and "left" are not used anywhere in the text.
Quote from: US 81 on May 17, 2016, 09:52:53 AM
One cause is still unreasonably slow speed limits set for revenue enhancement. Let engineers set the speed limits.
Another factor has to be governors on many vehicles. If companies aren't willing to remove them, could they be engineered to allow short bursts of speed to make passing safer?
Most cars today are massively over powered in comparison to the heyday of the Federally mandated 55 MPH speed limit and could hit 100 MPH no problem. There used to be cars available in the early 1980s that were specifically engineered with that 55 MPH speed limit in mind, the Chevette comes to mind. Governor or not a low powered economy car with a small engine is always going to accelerate slower than a sports car or muscle car. The problem is a lot of people float in the left lane when they aren't passing or don't pass fast enough to not cause a bottle neck behind them. $hitty driving or not, impeding the flow of traffic is putting you a lot greater risk than going 7 MPH over the speed limit then cranking it up when you need to pass. I have an Uncle who has gotten pretty up there in years that refuses to drive faster than 60 MPH heading from to Detroit to Tampa on I-75 each year...he has truckers blowing his doors off and is lucky he hasn't been wrecked.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 17, 2016, 10:14:16 AM
Quote from: US 81 on May 17, 2016, 09:52:53 AM
One cause is still unreasonably slow speed limits set for revenue enhancement. Let engineers set the speed limits.
Another factor has to be governors on many vehicles. If companies aren't willing to remove them, could they be engineered to allow short bursts of speed to make passing safer?
Most cars today are massively over powered in comparison to the heyday of the Federally mandated 55 MPH speed limit and could hit 100 MPH no problem. There used to be cars available in the early 1980s that were specifically engineered with that 55 MPH speed limit in mind, the Chevette comes to mind. Governor or not a low powered economy car with a small engine is always going to accelerate slower than a sports car or muscle car. The problem is a lot of people float in the left lane when they aren't passing or don't pass fast enough to not cause a bottle neck behind them. $hitty driving or not, impeding the flow of traffic is putting you a lot greater risk than going 7 MPH over the speed limit then cranking it up when you need to pass. I have an Uncle who has gotten pretty up there in years that refuses to drive faster than 60 MPH heading from to Detroit to Tampa on I-75 each year...he has truckers blowing his doors off and is lucky he hasn't been wrecked.
Funny how automakers use 0-60 times, horsepower numbers, and racing pedigree to sell cars. For many of us the car buying experience essentially boils down to finding something that will break the law as economically as possible. I don't think you can even buy a car anymore with a max speed of under 100... except maybe kei cars and SMARTs, and even they can go pretty fast.
I typically cruise on the interstate between cities at 80mph and can even downshift from there to do a quick pass when I want to... in a Hyundai Elantra. If that car can handle it, then most others should be able to as well. Judging from experience watching cars around me, most of which doing a similar pace as me, they do just fine.
Meanwhile highways designed for 80 have a posted limit of 55. What a racket.
I bet your uncle gets great fuel mileage.
Quote from: US 81 on May 17, 2016, 09:52:53 AM
One cause is still unreasonably slow speed limits set for revenue enhancement. Let engineers set the speed limits.
Another factor has to be governors on many vehicles. If companies aren't willing to remove them, could they be engineered to allow short bursts of speed to make passing safer?
Or perhaps we could make a law that would restrict governed vehicles to the right lane except within half a mile of a left exit/turn (that the vehicle will take) or lane drop?
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2016, 10:12:17 AM
There is actually more than one problem in here.
besides left lane hoggers, there is right lane obsession; there is traffic volume requiring use of more than one lane, often right lane is in significantly worse shape due to higher volume of heavy trucks - which usually relatively slow and tend to keep right.
And any simple problem has a simple, obvious and completely wrong solution...
By the way, someone needs to release their parking brake and move over: "new research" link goes to Nature article which was published in 2012. Words "move over", "right" and "left" are not used anywhere in the text.
Not everyone drives the same speed though. Even when the lanes are full, it's rare outside of stop and go conditions for the lanes to move at the same rate - the lanes to the left move faster.
And how common is it for the right lane to be so damaged that people need to avoid it? I've only seen that a couple times in my life, and both instances have since been repaired.
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2016, 10:12:17 AM
There is actually more than one problem in here.
besides left lane hoggers, there is right lane obsession; there is traffic volume requiring use of more than one lane, often right lane is in significantly worse shape due to higher volume of heavy trucks - which usually relatively slow and tend to keep right.
And any simple problem has a simple, obvious and completely wrong solution...
I think you make a good point. There are stretches of road where the right lane is so beat up by heavy truck traffic that it is advantageous to drive in the left lane if you value your suspension parts. Another thing i do is drive in the left-lane when approaching a bend to the left (since hugging the inside is the shortest distance). I don't go out of my way to do this, but if I'm already in the left lane to pass someone i will wait to turn back into the right lane until after the bend in the road (assuming no vehicles are approaching from behind). It's just something to keep your mind occupied during a long road trip.
The point is there are reasons someone may drive in the left most lane. As long as a driver isn't impeding traffic i have no problem with that.
Quote from: MrDisco99 on May 17, 2016, 12:36:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 17, 2016, 10:14:16 AM
Quote from: US 81 on May 17, 2016, 09:52:53 AM
One cause is still unreasonably slow speed limits set for revenue enhancement. Let engineers set the speed limits.
Another factor has to be governors on many vehicles. If companies aren't willing to remove them, could they be engineered to allow short bursts of speed to make passing safer?
Most cars today are massively over powered in comparison to the heyday of the Federally mandated 55 MPH speed limit and could hit 100 MPH no problem. There used to be cars available in the early 1980s that were specifically engineered with that 55 MPH speed limit in mind, the Chevette comes to mind. Governor or not a low powered economy car with a small engine is always going to accelerate slower than a sports car or muscle car. The problem is a lot of people float in the left lane when they aren't passing or don't pass fast enough to not cause a bottle neck behind them. $hitty driving or not, impeding the flow of traffic is putting you a lot greater risk than going 7 MPH over the speed limit then cranking it up when you need to pass. I have an Uncle who has gotten pretty up there in years that refuses to drive faster than 60 MPH heading from to Detroit to Tampa on I-75 each year...he has truckers blowing his doors off and is lucky he hasn't been wrecked.
Funny how automakers use 0-60 times, horsepower numbers, and racing pedigree to sell cars. For many of us the car buying experience essentially boils down to finding something that will break the law as economically as possible. I don't think you can even buy a car anymore with a max speed of under 100... except maybe kei cars and SMARTs, and even they can go pretty fast.
I typically cruise on the interstate between cities at 80mph and can even downshift from there to do a quick pass when I want to... in a Hyundai Elantra. If that car can handle it, then most others should be able to as well. Judging from experience watching cars around me, most of which doing a similar pace as me, they do just fine.
Meanwhile highways designed for 80 have a posted limit of 55. What a racket.
I bet your uncle gets great fuel mileage.
He's a got a thing against tolled roads too. Every time he flies out of Orlando he usually ends up taking US 92/17/441 on OBT just to avoid FL 528. I wouldn't be surprised if gas savings has something to do with it, he still refuses to buy a new car for my Aunt and stuck her with a 1998 Taurus. Best part was that he got all upset when I suggested taking US 41 most of the way so he doesn't have people running him off the road.
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2016, 12:57:18 PM
Not everyone drives the same speed though. Even when the lanes are full, it's rare outside of stop and go conditions for the lanes to move at the same rate - the lanes to the left move faster.
Sure, but the point is that "left lane is for passing only" is good only until something like 1000-1500 cars/hour at most.
Quote
And how common is it for the right lane to be so damaged that people need to avoid it? I've only seen that a couple times in my life, and both instances have since been repaired.
Did you try I-88 lately?
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2016, 01:31:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2016, 12:57:18 PM
Not everyone drives the same speed though. Even when the lanes are full, it's rare outside of stop and go conditions for the lanes to move at the same rate - the lanes to the left move faster.
Sure, but the point is that "left lane is for passing only" is good only until something like 1000-1500 cars/hour at most.
Quote
And how common is it for the right lane to be so damaged that people need to avoid it? I've only seen that a couple times in my life, and both instances have since been repaired.
Did you try I-88 lately?
I'll see your I-88 and raise you Texas' western half of I-10.
Quote from: US 81 on May 17, 2016, 03:09:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2016, 01:31:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2016, 12:57:18 PM
Not everyone drives the same speed though. Even when the lanes are full, it's rare outside of stop and go conditions for the lanes to move at the same rate - the lanes to the left move faster.
Sure, but the point is that "left lane is for passing only" is good only until something like 1000-1500 cars/hour at most.
Quote
And how common is it for the right lane to be so damaged that people need to avoid it? I've only seen that a couple times in my life, and both instances have since been repaired.
Did you try I-88 lately?
I'll see your I-88 and raise you Texas' western half of I-10.
I-40 from Kingman to Flagstaff was in similar condition although I know some repairs near Williams were made back in 2014.
Quote from: tradephoric on May 17, 2016, 01:00:35 PM
The point is there are reasons someone may drive in the left most lane. As long as a driver isn't impeding traffic i have no problem with that.
I had quite a few situations when people were OK with impeding traffic just to get out of completely empty left lane. Squeeze themselves in front of me only to push their brakes.. Honestly speaking, I think this is the most dangerous approach in "keep right" debate.
We need a lot more of this - except I want it to end in a ticket.
Nothing enrages me more on the road than some clown camping in the left lane.
Quote from: kalvado on May 17, 2016, 01:31:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2016, 12:57:18 PM
Not everyone drives the same speed though. Even when the lanes are full, it's rare outside of stop and go conditions for the lanes to move at the same rate - the lanes to the left move faster.
Sure, but the point is that "left lane is for passing only" is good only until something like 1000-1500 cars/hour at most.
Quote
And how common is it for the right lane to be so damaged that people need to avoid it? I've only seen that a couple times in my life, and both instances have since been repaired.
Did you try I-88 lately?
Back in February. Didn't see a need to avoid the right lane. Are you one of those people that is paranoid about the pavement being anything slightly less than perfect? IMO, I've always thought that concrete spalling gave the road character (in general, not just I-88; felt the same about NY 390, NY 590, I-490, and NY 104 before those roads were resurfaced/reconstructed in my lifetime), though I could do without the uneven lanes situation around exit 5.
Quote from: vdeane on May 17, 2016, 09:29:45 PM
Back in February. Didn't see a need to avoid the right lane. Are you one of those people that is paranoid about the pavement being anything slightly less than perfect? IMO, I've always thought that concrete spalling gave the road character (in general, not just I-88; felt the same about NY 390, NY 590, I-490, and NY 104 before those roads were resurfaced/reconstructed in my lifetime), though I could do without the uneven lanes situation around exit 5.
Not really paranoid - had to change struts only twice so far. More concerned about dental fractures, though - dentists charge more than mechanics.
Maybe a matter of what kind of car you're driving?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2016, 08:00:09 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2016, 07:21:06 AM
Sounds like the impatient fucks weaving in and out are the cause.
The cause are the LLDs. The result is the weaving.
They made me do it, in other words.
The cause of the weaving is people who decide one unsafe act requires another. Traffic sucks. Some of us drive in heavy traffic of people behaving badly every day. None of those people causes us to behave similarly unless we decide to.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 17, 2016, 10:32:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2016, 08:00:09 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2016, 07:21:06 AM
Sounds like the impatient fucks weaving in and out are the cause.
The cause are the LLDs. The result is the weaving.
They made me do it, in other words.
The cause of the weaving is people who decide one unsafe act requires another. Traffic sucks. Some of us drive in heavy traffic of people behaving badly every day. None of those people causes us to behave similarly unless we decide to.
Methinks we're getting a tad too caught up in the concept of "cause" in a literal sense here.
It is true the presence of someone driving slowly in the left lane does not
force other drivers to weave around them, but it certainly does provide them with a motive for doing so. And it is also quite fair to say that if people did not drive slowly in the left lane, other drivers would not weave around them. They would have no motive to.
Keep right except to pass is the law for a reason. It is a simple matter of courtesy to avoid unduly getting in someone else's way. Failure to practice this courtesy is inevitably going to lead to road rage.
Now, regardless of who should be blamed or is the "cause", which do you think would be more effective at preventing accidents?
- Enforcing Keep Right Except to pass, and telling people to quit being left lane hogs, or
- Enforcing no passing on the right, and telling people to patiently wait behind the left lane hog for him to wake up and move over
Somehow I think the first option would produce better results. Attempting to train people to respond differently to provocation is an uphill battle against human nature, but removing the motive for an undesirable behavior is quite effective at stopping it.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 18, 2016, 12:17:07 AM
Now, regardless of who should be blamed or is the "cause", which do you think would be more effective at preventing accidents?
- Enforcing Keep Right Except to pass, and telling people to quit being left lane hogs, or
- Enforcing no passing on the right, and telling people to patiently wait behind the left lane hog for him to wake up and move over
Since you're from NY, you may be interested in a following quote from the NY driver manual:
Quote
You may pass on the right:
[ ... ]
When you are on a two-way road that is marked for two or more lanes or is wide enough for two or more lanes, and passing is not prohibited by signs or restricted by parked cars or other obstructions.
So passing on the right on a freeway is not just unenforceable, it is fully legal in NYS - I still have to see any signs restricting passing on the right.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 18, 2016, 12:17:07 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 17, 2016, 10:32:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 17, 2016, 08:00:09 AM
Quote from: NE2 on May 17, 2016, 07:21:06 AM
Sounds like the impatient fucks weaving in and out are the cause.
The cause are the LLDs. The result is the weaving.
They made me do it, in other words.
The cause of the weaving is people who decide one unsafe act requires another. Traffic sucks. Some of us drive in heavy traffic of people behaving badly every day. None of those people causes us to behave similarly unless we decide to.
Methinks we're getting a tad too caught up in the concept of "cause" in a literal sense here.
It is true the presence of someone driving slowly in the left lane does not force other drivers to weave around them, but it certainly does provide them with a motive for doing so. And it is also quite fair to say that if people did not drive slowly in the left lane, other drivers would not weave around them. They would have no motive to.
Keep right except to pass is the law for a reason. It is a simple matter of courtesy to avoid unduly getting in someone else's way. Failure to practice this courtesy is inevitably going to lead to road rage.
Now, regardless of who should be blamed or is the "cause", which do you think would be more effective at preventing accidents?
- Enforcing Keep Right Except to pass, and telling people to quit being left lane hogs, or
- Enforcing no passing on the right, and telling people to patiently wait behind the left lane hog for him to wake up and move over
Somehow I think the first option would produce better results. Attempting to train people to respond differently to provocation is an uphill battle against human nature, but removing the motive for an undesirable behavior is quite effective at stopping it.
So what is the motive for the undesirable behavior of driving slow in the left lane, and how do you remove that motive?
I'm clearly illustrating that this is mostly a circular argument all around, but it's at least once a week as I try to get out of a left lane in which I'm not going fast enough for somebody, I change lanes to the right and said person is already racing around me on the right. Horn blast from them ensues etc., etc.
There is a general behavior problem that extends way beyond these specific acts and reflects a general low concern for driving with any regard to others that comes with a very low level of taking personal responsibility.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
I'm clearly illustrating that this is mostly a circular argument all around, but it's at least once a week as I try to get out of a left lane in which I'm not going fast enough for somebody, I change lanes to the right and said person is already racing around me on the right. Horn blast from them ensues etc., etc.
There is a general behavior problem that extends way beyond these specific acts and reflects a general low concern for driving with any regard to others that comes with a very low level of taking personal responsibility.
Yes, unfortunately to many people fail to do things as simple as checking mirrors and looking around the shoulder before changing lanes...
Quote from: Duke87 on May 18, 2016, 12:17:07 AM
- Enforcing no passing on the right, and telling people to patiently wait behind the left lane hog for him to wake up and move over
Because in this scenario, a guy could be going 50 mph for literally hundreds of miles (until he needs to stop for gas or exits the highway), and there would be no legal way to pass him. Even just a mile can cause a significant backup during a busy travel period.
As noted, many states don't prohibit passing on the right as long as you're in a legal travel lane. It's a misunderstanding that has taken off over the years, as people misinterpret the Keep Right Pass Left laws.
Off the top of my head the only state where I ever even saw a sign that said "keep right except to pass" was Michigan. I remember I-96 between Lansing and Farmington had a ton of them in the four-lane sections and they all looked pretty old. I found this old article on Jalopnik from 2010...I'm sure it's changed by now but still an interesting map:
http://jalopnik.com/5501615/left-lane-passing-laws-a-state-by-state-map
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2016, 08:20:05 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
I'm clearly illustrating that this is mostly a circular argument all around, but it's at least once a week as I try to get out of a left lane in which I'm not going fast enough for somebody, I change lanes to the right and said person is already racing around me on the right. Horn blast from them ensues etc., etc.
There is a general behavior problem that extends way beyond these specific acts and reflects a general low concern for driving with any regard to others that comes with a very low level of taking personal responsibility.
Yes, unfortunately to many people fail to do things as simple as checking mirrors and looking around the shoulder before changing lanes...
The situation I'm describing is one where someone aggressively tailgates in the left lane and then quickly, generally without a signal, races to the right around the slower driver.
There's no blame to be shared there.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:43:17 AM
The situation I'm describing is one where someone aggressively tailgates in the left lane and then quickly, generally without a signal, races to the right around the slower driver.
There's no blame to be shared there.
The way you describe the situation, blame falls squarely on you. Once you mention "horn sounds" - that means you did something that driver behind you didn't expect. Like moving to the right lane AFTER he started moving. Most likely you didn't show a blinker to give that guy a heads up....
I know the situation you're talking about - and if
you take it to the point when horn needs to come into play, there is little excuse for you.
This problem is at its worst on 4 lane freeways and expressway-type roads that are severly congested. One of the worst is I-95 across North Carolina, where "nestoring" in the left lane causes long queues of traffic, yet there is no enforcement.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
This problem is at its worst on 4 lane freeways and expressway-type roads that are severly congested. One of the worst is I-95 across North Carolina, where "nestoring" in the left lane causes long queues of traffic, yet there is no enforcement.
If there is congestion, then problem may be with too much traffic rather than left lane drivers. In general, it is accepted that the speed goes down as traffic increases...
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2016, 07:41:58 AM
Quote
You may pass on the right:
[ ... ]
When you are on a two-way road that is marked for two or more lanes or is wide enough for two or more lanes, and passing is not prohibited by signs or restricted by parked cars or other obstructions.
So passing on the right on a freeway is not just unenforceable, it is fully legal in NYS - I still have to see any signs restricting passing on the right.
The operative word is "may," and that cited rule is only half of the issue. What you missed is the "must." AFAIK NY still has a law which states that a driver MUST yield the passing lane to faster traffic as soon as it is safe to do so.
That is also the law in Massachusetts.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2016, 10:31:16 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
This problem is at its worst on 4 lane freeways and expressway-type roads that are severly congested. One of the worst is I-95 across North Carolina, where "nestoring" in the left lane causes long queues of traffic, yet there is no enforcement.
If there is congestion, then problem may be with too much traffic rather than left lane drivers. In general, it is accepted that the speed goes down as traffic increases...
True. But the left lane camping could be what's causing a lot of this congestion.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2016, 10:31:16 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
This problem is at its worst on 4 lane freeways and expressway-type roads that are severly congested. One of the worst is I-95 across North Carolina, where "nestoring" in the left lane causes long queues of traffic, yet there is no enforcement.
If there is congestion, then problem may be with too much traffic rather than left lane drivers. In general, it is accepted that the speed goes down as traffic increases...
You can easily get the same thing on a 3 lane highway as well.
If there's a large gap in front of the nesting left lane driver, it's not heavy traffic. It's a LLD.
Quote from: signalman on May 18, 2016, 10:58:14 AM
True. But the left lane camping could be what's causing a lot of this congestion.
Obviously. LL banditry is a form of selfishness. It is really simple math. Every road has a basic capacity. So many cars may physically occupy a physical location in a period of time. If you are driving appropriatly, you are clearing space for other to use. Sharing. Being a good person.
But, when someone practices LL banditry, they are using not just the space their car is physically occupying at any one instant but also all of the space in front of them all the way to the next car. Sometime miles of space. Think of that. Being so self-centered and selfish as to us maybe a mile of space for your one car, when you can simple KEEP RIGHT and thus allow dozens of other cars to use the space you were using all by your self.
Simple courtesy and common sense. On the right, on the a** of the car in front of you, on a side road, saying home. Common courtesy.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2016, 11:16:18 AM
You can easily get the same thing on a 3 lane highway as well.
If there's a large gap in front of the nesting left lane driver, it's not heavy traffic. It's a LLD.
And there were some interesting experiments about "leader car" driving at lower constant speed, as opposed to tailgating car in the front with acceleration and slowing all the time. Highway throughput went up...
How about this scenario. It's a 6-lane freeway (3 lanes each direction) and a driver is camped out in the middle lane because they don't want to deal with merging traffic at the on-ramps. The middle-lane driver is going the speed limit but the flow of traffic is 5-10 mph faster. Is it acceptable for a driver going the speed limit to camp out in the middle lane?
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 11:29:16 AM
How about this scenario. It's a 6-lane freeway (3 lanes each direction) and a driver is camped out in the middle lane because they don't want to deal with merging traffic at the on-ramps. The middle-lane driver is going the speed limit but the flow of traffic is 5-10 mph faster. Is it acceptable for a driver going the speed limit to camp out in the middle lane?
The law is Keep Right Except to Pass, not Keep Center Except to Pass.
Also, many states don't permit trucks in the left lane, so the center lane is their passing lane.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2016, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 11:29:16 AM
How about this scenario. It's a 6-lane freeway (3 lanes each direction) and a driver is camped out in the middle lane because they don't want to deal with merging traffic at the on-ramps. The middle-lane driver is going the speed limit but the flow of traffic is 5-10 mph faster. Is it acceptable for a driver going the speed limit to camp out in the middle lane?
The law is Keep Right Except to Pass, not Keep Center Except to Pass.
But 'Keep right laws' often don't apply to freeways with 3 lanes in the same direction. Here's is Michigan's Vehicle Code:
Quote257.634 Driving on right half of roadway; exceptions; driving on roadway having 2 or more lanes for travel in 1 direction; traveling on freeway having 3 or more lanes for travel in same direction; ordinance regulating same subject matter prohibited; violation as civil infraction.
Sec. 634.
(1) Upon each roadway of sufficient width, the driver of a vehicle shall drive the vehicle upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:
(a) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction under the rules governing that movement.
(b) When the right half of a roadway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair or when an obstruction exists making it necessary to drive to the left of the center of the highway. A driver who is driving on the left half of a roadway under this subdivision shall yield the right-of-way to an oncoming vehicle traveling in the proper direction upon the unobstructed portion of the roadway.
(c) When a vehicle operated by a state agency or a local authority or an agent of a state agency or local authority is engaged in work on the roadway.
(d) Upon a roadway divided into 3 marked lanes for traffic under the rules applicable on the roadway.
(2) Upon a roadway having 2 or more lanes for travel in 1 direction, the driver of a vehicle shall drive the vehicle in the extreme right-hand lane available for travel except as otherwise provided in this section. However, the driver of a vehicle may drive the vehicle in any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction of travel when the lanes are occupied by vehicles moving in substantially continuous lanes of traffic and in any left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction of travel for a reasonable distance before making a left turn.
(3) This section shall not be construed to prohibit a vehicle traveling in the appropriate direction from traveling in any lane of a freeway having 3 or more lanes for travel in the same direction. However, a city, village, township, or county may not enact an ordinance which regulates the same subject matter as any provision of this subsection. The driver of a truck with a gross weight of more than 10,000 pounds, a truck tractor, or a combination of a vehicle and trailer or semitrailer shall drive the vehicle or combination of vehicles only in either of the 2 lanes farthest to the right, except for a reasonable distance when making a left turn or where a special hazard exists that requires the use of an alternative lane for safety reasons.
(4) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction.
On occasion you may be driving in the middle lane next to someone in the right lane driving a similar speed as you. If the driver in the right lane is approaching slower traffic it's common courtesy to move over to the left-most lane to prevent that right lane driver from having to brake to avoid slower traffic.
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 01:04:30 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2016, 11:52:07 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 11:29:16 AM
How about this scenario. It's a 6-lane freeway (3 lanes each direction) and a driver is camped out in the middle lane because they don't want to deal with merging traffic at the on-ramps. The middle-lane driver is going the speed limit but the flow of traffic is 5-10 mph faster. Is it acceptable for a driver going the speed limit to camp out in the middle lane?
The law is Keep Right Except to Pass, not Keep Center Except to Pass.
But 'Keep right laws' often don't apply to freeways with 3 lanes in the same direction. Here's is Michigan's Vehicle Code:
Quote257.634 Driving on right half of roadway; exceptions; driving on roadway having 2 or more lanes for travel in 1 direction; traveling on freeway having 3 or more lanes for travel in same direction; ordinance regulating same subject matter prohibited; violation as civil infraction.
Sec. 634.
(1) Upon each roadway of sufficient width, the driver of a vehicle shall drive the vehicle upon the right half of the roadway, except as follows:
(a) When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction under the rules governing that movement.
(b) When the right half of a roadway is closed to traffic while under construction or repair or when an obstruction exists making it necessary to drive to the left of the center of the highway. A driver who is driving on the left half of a roadway under this subdivision shall yield the right-of-way to an oncoming vehicle traveling in the proper direction upon the unobstructed portion of the roadway.
(c) When a vehicle operated by a state agency or a local authority or an agent of a state agency or local authority is engaged in work on the roadway.
(d) Upon a roadway divided into 3 marked lanes for traffic under the rules applicable on the roadway.
(2) Upon a roadway having 2 or more lanes for travel in 1 direction, the driver of a vehicle shall drive the vehicle in the extreme right-hand lane available for travel except as otherwise provided in this section. However, the driver of a vehicle may drive the vehicle in any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction of travel when the lanes are occupied by vehicles moving in substantially continuous lanes of traffic and in any left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction of travel for a reasonable distance before making a left turn.
(3) This section shall not be construed to prohibit a vehicle traveling in the appropriate direction from traveling in any lane of a freeway having 3 or more lanes for travel in the same direction. However, a city, village, township, or county may not enact an ordinance which regulates the same subject matter as any provision of this subsection. The driver of a truck with a gross weight of more than 10,000 pounds, a truck tractor, or a combination of a vehicle and trailer or semitrailer shall drive the vehicle or combination of vehicles only in either of the 2 lanes farthest to the right, except for a reasonable distance when making a left turn or where a special hazard exists that requires the use of an alternative lane for safety reasons.
(4) A person who violates this section is responsible for a civil infraction.
This is also the law in CT. There is no legal obligation to keep right on any highway with 3+ lanes unless you are a truck or are clearly not moving with the flow of traffic.
Quote from: kalvado on May 18, 2016, 08:54:06 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:43:17 AM
The situation I'm describing is one where someone aggressively tailgates in the left lane and then quickly, generally without a signal, races to the right around the slower driver.
There's no blame to be shared there.
The way you describe the situation, blame falls squarely on you. Once you mention "horn sounds" - that means you did something that driver behind you didn't expect. Like moving to the right lane AFTER he started moving. Most likely you didn't show a blinker to give that guy a heads up....
I know the situation you're talking about - and if you take it to the point when horn needs to come into play, there is little excuse for you.
No, aggressive driver, it doesn't. I don't force people to rapidly and aggressively change lanes without a signal and pass on the right well above the speed limit on a four-lane street without allowing the "offending" driver the chance to move. Bad upbringing and/or mental illness does.
NJ laws actually explicitly say that none of the "keep right except to pass" laws should be construed to prohibit passing on the right as long as you are not breaking other laws such as speed limits
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 01:04:30 PM
(2) Upon a roadway having 2 or more lanes for travel in 1 direction, the driver of a vehicle shall drive the vehicle in the extreme right-hand lane available for travel except as otherwise provided in this section. However, the driver of a vehicle may drive the vehicle in any lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction of travel when the lanes are occupied by vehicles moving in substantially continuous lanes of traffic and in any left-hand lane lawfully available to traffic moving in the same direction of travel for a reasonable distance before making a left turn.
(3) This section shall not be construed to prohibit a vehicle traveling in the appropriate direction from traveling in any lane of a freeway having 3 or more lanes for travel in the same direction. However, a city, village, township, or county may not enact an ordinance which regulates the same subject matter as any provision of this subsection. The driver of a truck with a gross weight of more than 10,000 pounds, a truck tractor, or a combination of a vehicle and trailer or semitrailer shall drive the vehicle or combination of vehicles only in either of the 2 lanes farthest to the right, except for a reasonable distance when making a left turn or where a special hazard exists that requires the use of an alternative lane for safety reasons.
You didn't highlight the proper line. What you highlighted is saying that vehicles are permitted to drive any lane of the roadway. Of course that's true...imagine if they built a 3 lane roadway, and said that vehicles are never permitted to use the left lane. What you really meant to highlight is (2), and it clearly says drivers should drive in the right-most lane available when able to do so.
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
On occasion you may be driving in the middle lane next to someone in the right lane driving a similar speed as you. If the driver in the right lane is approaching slower traffic it's common courtesy to move over to the left-most lane to prevent that right lane driver from having to brake to avoid slower traffic.
You can't predict what that other person may do. Maybe they're going to stay in that lane for an upcoming exit. In reality, it's common courtesy not to be driving the same speed as the car next to you in the first place because if they need to make a sudden movement, you're blocking them. Besides...how did they get to drive the same speed in the first place? One obviously had to be driving slower or faster than the other until they were side by side. Personally, if someone is next to me for any period of time, I'll speed up or slow down on my own just so they're not right beside me.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2016, 12:13:31 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 01:14:56 PM
On occasion you may be driving in the middle lane next to someone in the right lane driving a similar speed as you. If the driver in the right lane is approaching slower traffic it's common courtesy to move over to the left-most lane to prevent that right lane driver from having to brake to avoid slower traffic.
You can't predict what that other person may do. Maybe they're going to stay in that lane for an upcoming exit. In reality, it's common courtesy not to be driving the same speed as the car next to you in the first place because if they need to make a sudden movement, you're blocking them. Besides...how did they get to drive the same speed in the first place? One obviously had to be driving slower or faster than the other until they were side by side. Personally, if someone is next to me for any period of time, I'll speed up or slow down on my own just so they're not right beside me.
There are plenty of ways to end up driving the same speed as someone next to you. One of you may have entered the highway and accelerated to the same speed as the other was already going. One of you may have hit slower traffic ahead and slowed down to the speed of the other. Maybe you're not on a freeway and are both speeding up from a traffic signal.
Personally, if I'm in a situation tradephoric describes, I would speed up rather than switch lanes unless I feel it wouldn't be safe to do so. In general, though, I would not avoid such a situation absent other traffic.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 17, 2016, 07:38:05 PM
Nothing enrages me more on the road than some clown camping in the left lane.
Nothing, really? Drunk or sleepy driving, texting, running red lights, cutting in, stopping instead of merging at speed onto a freeway, none of those are as bad as left lane camping?
I don't like left lane camping either, but try to have some perspective. It's annoying but not actually dangerous unless you change lanes unsafely going around them.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2016, 12:13:31 PM
You can't predict what that other person may do. Maybe they're going to stay in that lane for an upcoming exit. In reality, it's common courtesy not to be driving the same speed as the car next to you in the first place because if they need to make a sudden movement, you're blocking them. Besides...how did they get to drive the same speed in the first place? One obviously had to be driving slower or faster than the other until they were side by side. Personally, if someone is next to me for any period of time, I'll speed up or slow down on my own just so they're not right beside me.
People in the right lane will speed up as i pass them and start driving next to me. Women want to check me out and men want to check out my sweet ride. So every person i pass wants to drive next to me jeffandnicole. It's a tough life.
Quote from: kkt on May 19, 2016, 01:25:05 PM
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 17, 2016, 07:38:05 PM
Nothing enrages me more on the road than some clown camping in the left lane.
Nothing, really? Drunk or sleepy driving, texting, running red lights, cutting in, stopping instead of merging at speed onto a freeway, none of those are as bad as left lane camping?
I don't like left lane camping either, but try to have some perspective. It's annoying but not actually dangerous unless you change lanes unsafely going around them.
Nope. It's the left lane campers.
Quote from: tradephoric on May 19, 2016, 01:26:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 19, 2016, 12:13:31 PM
You can't predict what that other person may do. Maybe they're going to stay in that lane for an upcoming exit. In reality, it's common courtesy not to be driving the same speed as the car next to you in the first place because if they need to make a sudden movement, you're blocking them. Besides...how did they get to drive the same speed in the first place? One obviously had to be driving slower or faster than the other until they were side by side. Personally, if someone is next to me for any period of time, I'll speed up or slow down on my own just so they're not right beside me.
People in the right lane will speed up as i pass them and start driving next to me. Women want to check me out and men want to check out my sweet ride. So every person i pass wants to drive next to me jeffandnicole. It's a tough life.
Some of the guys may be checking you out LOL
Or chick liking your ride
If I am in the left lane and a faster car comes up behind i will move over.. sometimes I am not given a chance. Even with blinker on
I have noticed many of the left lane hogs are on the phone/texting or elderly drivers. Occasionally is the do-gooder environmentalist or safety crusader.
But a lot of them are just unaware of their offense or surroundings
A pet peeve of mine is when I'm driving in the left lane and keeping a safe 3 second following distance to the vehicle infront of me. Keeping a safe following distance becomes an open invitation for people to drive around you and fill the gap because they feel like you should be 10 feet off the bumper of the vehicle infront of you. Rule of thumb: if a brake check causes you to lose control and crash you are following too close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSE3fkeHAmo
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
So what is the motive for the undesirable behavior of driving slow in the left lane, and how do you remove that motive?
In my experience it is a combination of laziness and obliviousness. Someone will get in the left lane to pass a couple trucks or whatever, and then just start daydreaming and cruising in the left lane rather than moving back right, neither noticing nor caring that people are passing them on the right.
In other words, hogging the left lane is not typically something which is done deliberately for any sort of selfish gain. It is something which is done unintentionally due to a driver's lack of situational awareness.
This is therefore something that perhaps a target enforcement campaign could be good medicine for. If a driver remembers that time they got a ticket for driving too slowly in the left lane, maybe they'll pay more attention next time.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 19, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
So what is the motive for the undesirable behavior of driving slow in the left lane, and how do you remove that motive?
In my experience it is a combination of laziness and obliviousness. Someone will get in the left lane to pass a couple trucks or whatever, and then just start daydreaming and cruising in the left lane rather than moving back right, neither noticing nor caring that people are passing them on the right.
In other words, hogging the left lane is not typically something which is done deliberately for any sort of selfish gain. It is something which is done unintentionally due to a driver's lack of situational awareness.
This is therefore something that perhaps a target enforcement campaign could be good medicine for. If a driver remembers that time they got a ticket for driving too slowly in the left lane, maybe they'll pay more attention next time.
In all my years driving, less than a handful of times has it been some deliberately slow in the left lane. One of the worst offenders was someone hellbent on keeping everyone behind them. They'd speed up until there was another car beside them on the right. Then slow to match their speed. They did this for miles and miles. Had a huge line of cars. Maybe some power-hungry cog at some factory wanted to feel important.
But, more often than not, it's obliviousness or just not caring. They get in the left lane to pass someone and just stay there. Even if it's clear other traffic has come up on them. They're not moving. A lot of cell-phone yakkers or texters, as well. I guess they think in the left lane they don't have to deal with on and off ramp traffic to mess with their clear view down the road.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 19, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
So what is the motive for the undesirable behavior of driving slow in the left lane, and how do you remove that motive?
In my experience it is a combination of laziness and obliviousness. Someone will get in the left lane to pass a couple trucks or whatever, and then just start daydreaming and cruising in the left lane rather than moving back right, neither noticing nor caring that people are passing them on the right.
In other words, hogging the left lane is not typically something which is done deliberately for any sort of selfish gain. It is something which is done unintentionally due to a driver's lack of situational awareness.
This is therefore something that perhaps a target enforcement campaign could be good medicine for. If a driver remembers that time they got a ticket for driving too slowly in the left lane, maybe they'll pay more attention next time.
I think you also need to remember that a majority of motorists are not commercial drivers. They aren't obligated to hold themselves to high standards. Their job isn't on the line if they don't follow all traffic regulations to a "T". The most that is at stake for them is a $150-200 ticket that they will either pay without contest or have reduced in court.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 19, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
This is therefore something that perhaps a target enforcement campaign could be good medicine for. If a driver remembers that time they got a ticket for driving too slowly in the left lane, maybe they'll pay more attention next time.
Millions of drivers who have been issued 2 or more speeding tickets will probably say otherwise.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 20, 2016, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 19, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
So what is the motive for the undesirable behavior of driving slow in the left lane, and how do you remove that motive?
In my experience it is a combination of laziness and obliviousness. Someone will get in the left lane to pass a couple trucks or whatever, and then just start daydreaming and cruising in the left lane rather than moving back right, neither noticing nor caring that people are passing them on the right.
In other words, hogging the left lane is not typically something which is done deliberately for any sort of selfish gain. It is something which is done unintentionally due to a driver's lack of situational awareness.
This is therefore something that perhaps a target enforcement campaign could be good medicine for. If a driver remembers that time they got a ticket for driving too slowly in the left lane, maybe they'll pay more attention next time.
I think you also need to remember that a majority of motorists are not commercial drivers. They aren't obligated to hold themselves to high standards. Their job isn't on the line if they don't follow all traffic regulations to a "T". The most that is at stake for them is a $150-200 ticket that they will either pay without contest or have reduced in court.
Most commercial drivers deliberately break traffic laws too, and I'm pretty sure most of them still have their jobs even after doing it. Like when semis are in the left lane, when they clearly shouldn't be as state law prohibits it (and yes they are over the weight limit).
I can't count the number of times I have been tailgated in the left lane while driving at least 10 over the limit and passing another car, or when in congested traffic and maintaining a safe 2-3 second following distance behind the car in front of me. If you are a fast driver (meaning you want to drive more than ten over) and think I am a "impeding traffic" and "blocking the left lane" you can just sit and wait, thanks very much.
Personally, people "hogging" the left lane and going at least the speed limit and possibly a few over cause me zero frustration and is not that common anyway. It somehow leads me to question whether the people who complain about this have a regional problem where it is more common than where I live, or are just speed demons who think they are entitled to 15 or 20 over and that traffic should part before them like the Red Sea before Moses.
LGL33L
Quote from: orulz on May 31, 2016, 03:30:14 PM
Personally, people "hogging" the left lane and going at least the speed limit and possibly a few over cause me zero frustration and is not that common anyway. It somehow leads me to question whether the people who complain about this have a regional problem where it is more common than where I live, or are just speed demons who think they are entitled to 15 or 20 over and that traffic should part before them like the Red Sea before Moses.
You know, there are places where 30 MPH over is still too slow...
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 03:51:26 PM
You know, there are places where 30 MPH over is still too slow...
Too slow for what, getting your license revoked if you're caught?
Quote from: kkt on May 31, 2016, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 03:51:26 PM
You know, there are places where 30 MPH over is still too slow...
Too slow for what, getting your license revoked if you're caught?
I seem to recall travelling roughly 150 to 160 km/h along the QE2 between Edmonton and Calgary, ostensibly a 110 zone. I'm pretty sure they would have taken my car if I was caught, but they can't pull everyone over! I would never drive that fast on my own accord, but it felt necessary because that was the speed of the left lane; the right lane was full of caravans and trucks.
Quote from: kkt on May 31, 2016, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 03:51:26 PM
You know, there are places where 30 MPH over is still too slow...
Too slow for what, getting your license revoked if you're caught?
No, just to feel bad about being too slow - everyone else seem to go at least 40 over. Yes, I was the slowest car on the road going just 95 MPH... I had out of state license plates, so I didn't feel
awfully bad, though.
Not keeping right reduces througput.
Refer to this simple illustration to see how "forcing" the faster driver to pass you on the right reduces throughput. Compare how quickly the red car can clear the field of view, then compound that delay for every driver affected.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fslowertraffickeepright.com%2Fimages%2FHighway.gif&hash=e3cbf715cba1168e0137f62958a1448bbb2c1910)
Not to get all Yoda or anything, but...
reducing throughput leads to added congestion,
added congestion leads to road rage,
road rage leads to unsafe maneuvers,
unsafe maneuvers lead to accidents.
Quote from: kphoger on May 31, 2016, 05:21:11 PM
Not keeping right reduces througput.
Refer to this simple illustration to see how "forcing" the faster driver to pass you on the right reduces throughput. Compare how quickly the red car can clear the field of view, then compound that delay for every driver affected.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fslowertraffickeepright.com%2Fimages%2FHighway.gif&hash=e3cbf715cba1168e0137f62958a1448bbb2c1910)
Not to get all Yoda or anything, but...
reducing throughput leads to added congestion,
added congestion leads to road rage,
road rage leads to unsafe maneuvers,
unsafe maneuvers lead to accidents.
Looks like another certified traffic engineer with bogus pics. You realize that red car goes 3x faster than the blue one? Actually, I don't think there is any situation when 3x speed difference may be legitimate unless blue car is broken. Most likely red driver is speeding beyond any reason. No, we don't need to increase throughput at
that cost.
Neither we need drivers like green one on the right pic, cutting blue guy with less than 1/4 second interval.
Don't behave like you're running for political office, lie within the reason!
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 18, 2016, 10:06:16 AM
This problem is at its worst on 4 lane freeways and expressway-type roads that are severly congested. One of the worst is I-95 across North Carolina, where "nestoring" in the left lane causes long queues of traffic, yet there is no enforcement.
That would be because it's not illegal to camp in the left lane here, unfortunately.
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 05:33:52 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 31, 2016, 05:21:11 PM
Not keeping right reduces througput.
Refer to this simple illustration to see how "forcing" the faster driver to pass you on the right reduces throughput. Compare how quickly the red car can clear the field of view, then compound that delay for every driver affected.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fslowertraffickeepright.com%2Fimages%2FHighway.gif&hash=e3cbf715cba1168e0137f62958a1448bbb2c1910)
Not to get all Yoda or anything, but...
reducing throughput leads to added congestion,
added congestion leads to road rage,
road rage leads to unsafe maneuvers,
unsafe maneuvers lead to accidents.
Looks like another certified traffic engineer with bogus pics. You realize that red car goes 3x faster than the blue one? Actually, I don't think there is any situation when 3x speed difference may be legitimate unless blue car is broken. Most likely red driver is speeding beyond any reason. No, we don't need to increase throughput at that cost.
Neither we need drivers like green one on the right pic, cutting blue guy with less than 1/4 second interval.
Don't behave like you're running for political office, lie within the reason!
Some trucks, occasionally drivers who just don't care; in any case, the speed differential being lower just compounds the problem by increasing the time to pass. You sound like one of those "speed kills" people, when in fact speed in and of itself has never harmed anyone. Let's say someone was driving 10 over the limit, hit a tree, and died. Did they die because they were speeding? No, they died because they hit a tree!
Quote from: vdeane on May 31, 2016, 09:06:23 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 05:33:52 PM
Looks like another certified traffic engineer with bogus pics. You realize that red car goes 3x faster than the blue one? Actually, I don't think there is any situation when 3x speed difference may be legitimate unless blue car is broken. Most likely red driver is speeding beyond any reason. No, we don't need to increase throughput at that cost.
Neither we need drivers like green one on the right pic, cutting blue guy with less than 1/4 second interval.
Don't behave like you're running for political office, lie within the reason!
Some trucks, occasionally drivers who just don't care; in any case, the speed differential being lower just compounds the problem by increasing the time to pass. You sound like one of those "speed kills" people, when in fact speed in and of itself has never harmed anyone. Let's say someone was driving 10 over the limit, hit a tree, and died. Did they die because they were speeding? No, they died because they hit a tree!
Which trucks? Are there any trucks going below 30 MPH on a highway - other than maintenance vehicles?
Speed may or may not be a factor in any particular accident. It is always easy to blame for those who don't want to dig deeper.
Exactly same situation as on the picture: it is easy to blame left lane camping, but what I actually see in these images is an overly aggressive driver (or two) causing close calls by tailgating and cutting short. Two wrongs don't make one right.... Even if someone just tries to prove their point!
PS. Did you notice that on right, purportedly correct image, red car does not go to the right lane at "required" distance of 1/2 car length? Probably an indication of something as well.
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 05:33:52 PM
Looks like another certified traffic engineer with bogus pics. You realize that red car goes 3x faster than the blue one? Actually, I don't think there is any situation when 3x speed difference may be legitimate unless blue car is broken. Most likely red driver is speeding beyond any reason. No, we don't need to increase throughput at that cost.
Neither we need drivers like green one on the right pic, cutting blue guy with less than 1/4 second interval.
Don't behave like you're running for political office, lie within the reason!
The GIF is designed to provide a basic visual demonstration of the effects of camping in the left lane, not to provide a perfect to scale movie of the situation.
The differences in speed may be exaggerated, and the green car may be shown merging what appears to be very closely in front of the blue car, but this doesn't change the underlying principle. Make a GIF with these details corrected and the red car would still move out of the frame sooner in the scenario where the green car gets in the right lane.
Talk about failing to see the forest for the trees...
Quote from: vdeane on May 31, 2016, 09:40:16 PM
Talk about failing to see the forest for the trees...
More like the devil is always in the details :sombrero:
Quote from: Duke87 on May 31, 2016, 09:27:42 PM
The GIF is designed to provide a basic visual demonstration of the effects of camping in the left lane, not to provide a perfect to scale movie of the situation.
GIF is designed to illustrate some point - which may or may not be true. Even the phrase "red car gone faster means higher throughput" may be wrong (it
is wrong, actually)
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 03:51:26 PM
Quote from: orulz on May 31, 2016, 03:30:14 PM
Personally, people "hogging" the left lane and going at least the speed limit and possibly a few over cause me zero frustration and is not that common anyway. It somehow leads me to question whether the people who complain about this have a regional problem where it is more common than where I live, or are just speed demons who think they are entitled to 15 or 20 over and that traffic should part before them like the Red Sea before Moses.
You know, there are places where 30 MPH over is still too slow...
My feeble-minded theory for habitual, non-"i'm late and need to hurry to get on time" speeders is that their own experience on the road has conditioned them to keep looking straight ahead at all times and not once glance down at the speedometer. I often think everyone has their own "feeling" for specific speed limits and that they often don't correlate to the correct numerical value. When you've been driving 30, 40+ years you tend to develop habits (good and bad) and maybe one of them is just never actually looking at how fast you're going.
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 10:07:03 PM
GIF is designed to illustrate some point - which may or may not be true. Even the phrase "red car gone faster means higher throughput" may be wrong (it is wrong, actually)
Do you have any evidence to support this claim? In the GIF, the red car is stuck behind the green car going speed 'G', then speeds up to speed 'R' when it clears. On the left side of the image, the red car has to stay at speed G until the green car pulls at least 2.5 car lengths ahead of the blue car, change lanes, then speed up to R. On the right, the green car must only pull 1.25 car lengths in front of the blue car before it changes lanes, allowing the red car to speed up to R. On the right, the red car spends a longer time at a higher speed, increasing the average speed of the cars on the highway.
Quote from: Thing 342 on May 31, 2016, 11:06:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 10:07:03 PM
GIF is designed to illustrate some point - which may or may not be true. Even the phrase "red car gone faster means higher throughput" may be wrong (it is wrong, actually)
Do you have any evidence to support this claim? In the GIF, the red car is stuck behind the green car going speed 'G', then speeds up to speed 'R' when it clears. On the left side of the image, the red car has to stay at speed G until the green car pulls at least 2.5 car lengths ahead of the blue car, change lanes, then speed up to R. On the right, the green car must only pull 1.25 car lengths in front of the blue car before it changes lanes, allowing the red car to speed up to R. On the right, the red car spends a longer time at a higher speed, increasing the average speed of the cars on the highway.
And it is well known that
throughput and
speed have very indirect, mostly inverse correlation. This is a type of correlation you would expect:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fjliszka.github.io%2Fassets%2Fimg%2Ftraffic%2Fspeed_vs_flow.png&hash=f39cb7077aced1780b618982780da6ac69d950f8)
Throughput, as in vehicles per hour (per lane) is driven not by speed, but by intervals between cars - textbook 2 second interval tend to increase at higher speed, and 1800 vph - that means 1 car every 2 second - is about peak value for non-congested traffic. It corresponds to "same speed in a lane" scenario, no high speed passing.
If you think about it, in non-congested driving at highway speed car travels its length in about 0.15 s, and 90% of the road is 2 second intervals.
Maybe this is my non-engineer mind spinning its wheels here, but...
Are you saying that the same number of vehicles taking longer to clear a given segment of roadway does NOT lead to a decrease in throughout? OK, that may be true without my understanding how it works, and I'm good with that. But the scenario still leads to road rage.
And yes, there are places where trucks travel at less than three times the speed as passenger cars. I've been on more than one highway in Mexico where overloaded double-trailer trucks were chugging uphill at 15 to 20 mph while shiny new SUVs and sports cars were flying by at 60 to 90 mph. Sometimes one of those trucks (say, a 30-mph one) would pass another in the left lane; leave him to dawdle in the left lane after passing, and see how it affects traffic. This may seem like an extreme example, but it's actually fairly common there wherever there are mountains. The differential may be less here in the States, but the point remains.
Furthermore, tailgating and cutting short are encouraged by left lane dawdling. An irate red car driver is more likely to tailgate a dawdling green car driver and/or cut off a slower blue car driver than one who is not irate. You may think that's stinky, but the fact is it's true.
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2016, 06:35:00 PM
Maybe this is my non-engineer mind spinning its wheels here, but...
Are you saying that the same number of vehicles taking longer to clear a given segment of roadway does NOT lead to a decrease in throughout? OK, that may be true without my understanding how it works, and I'm good with that. But the scenario still leads to road rage.
Road rage for slalom driver? Do they have any other operating mode?
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2016, 06:35:00 PM
And yes, there are places where trucks travel at less than three times the speed as passenger cars. I've been on more than one highway in Mexico where overloaded double-trailer trucks were chugging uphill at 15 to 20 mph while shiny new SUVs and sports cars were flying by at 60 to 90 mph. Sometimes one of those trucks (say, a 30-mph one) would pass another in the left lane; leave him to dawdle in the left lane after passing, and see how it affects traffic. This may seem like an extreme example, but it's actually fairly common there wherever there are mountains. The differential may be less here in the States, but the point remains.
Point is that this is an extreme situation, I assume. And if you think about it, there may be some two-lane roads in those mountains..
More numerically, it is pretty common to assume that top 15% of drivers in free-flowing traffic are speeding and they present a hazard. Something similar can be said about bottom 5-10%...
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2016, 06:35:00 PM
Furthermore, tailgating and cutting short are encouraged by left lane dawdling. An irate red car driver is more likely to tailgate a dawdling green car driver and/or cut off a slower blue car driver than one who is not irate. You may think that's stinky, but the fact is it's true.
Those are not encouraged by left lane hogging, those are a typical pattern for aggressive superspeeders. And no, I don't care if they cover a mile in 45 or 42 seconds at 55 MPH limit.
One thing in "keep right no matter what" drivers which irritate me most (talk about road rage) is cutting off for no good reason. Which is apparently an SOP from the perspective of said annimation. If you change lane in front of me, give me 2 second interval.
Edited for proper quote formating
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 11:37:55 PM
And it is well known that throughput and speed have very indirect, mostly inverse correlation. This is a type of correlation you would expect:
Throughput, as in vehicles per hour (per lane) is driven not by speed, but by intervals between cars - textbook 2 second interval tend to increase at higher speed, and 1800 vph - that means 1 car every 2 second - is about peak value for non-congested traffic.
Several things here.
Firstly, yes, it is driven by intervals between cars. Intervals which can become larger if a left lane hog prevents other drivers from being able to access the space in front of him.
Secondly, someone driving unduly slowly and not allowing others to pass can help tip things into the bottom half of that graph where throughput decreases with speed (i.e. the congestion half).
Thirdly, even if we assume it has no effect on throughput, it still needlessly slows others down and prods them to do unsafe things.
Fourthly, avoiding unnecessarily being an obstacle to others is basic courtesy. If you're walking slowly and someone says "excuse me", you don't stubbornly continue obstructing them, you step aside and let them pass. Other drivers on the road cannot verbally communicate "excuse me" but the same basic principle otherwise still applies.
As for the issue of people merging in too closely in front of other vehicles, that is also bad and dangerous behavior. But that doesn't mean the alternative is to just stay in the left lane, the proper alternative is to move right when you have sufficient space to safely do so.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 31, 2016, 09:27:42 PM
Quote from: kalvado on May 31, 2016, 05:33:52 PM
Looks like another certified traffic engineer with bogus pics. You realize that red car goes 3x faster than the blue one? Actually, I don't think there is any situation when 3x speed difference may be legitimate unless blue car is broken. Most likely red driver is speeding beyond any reason. No, we don't need to increase throughput at that cost.
Neither we need drivers like green one on the right pic, cutting blue guy with less than 1/4 second interval.
Don't behave like you're running for political office, lie within the reason!
The GIF is designed to provide a basic visual demonstration of the effects of camping in the left lane, not to provide a perfect to scale movie of the situation.
The differences in speed may be exaggerated, and the green car may be shown merging what appears to be very closely in front of the blue car, but this doesn't change the underlying principle. Make a GIF with these details corrected and the red car would still move out of the frame sooner in the scenario where the green car gets in the right lane.
Where that difference really presents itself is when the green vehicle does get over, but has to wait for the red car to clear first to allow the cars behind red to then pass green on the left.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 01, 2016, 10:37:34 PM
Several things here.
Firstly, yes, it is driven by intervals between cars. Intervals which can become larger if a left lane hog prevents other drivers from being able to access the space in front of him.
Secondly, someone driving unduly slowly and not allowing others to pass can help tip things into the bottom half of that graph where throughput decreases with speed (i.e. the congestion half).
less obvious is that deviating too far from average in either way can cause problems.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 01, 2016, 10:37:34 PM
Thirdly, even if we assume it has no effect on throughput, it still needlessly slows others down and prods them to do unsafe things.
Often needlessly slows down to as slow as speed limit+20!
Quote from: Duke87 on June 01, 2016, 10:37:34 PM
Fourthly, avoiding unnecessarily being an obstacle to others is basic courtesy. If you're walking slowly and someone says "excuse me", you don't stubbornly continue obstructing them, you step aside and let them pass. Other drivers on the road cannot verbally communicate "excuse me" but the same basic principle otherwise still applies.
driving slalom equates "excuse me" with a bang of body hitting the wall next millisecond.
Once again - at higher vehicle density creating and maintaining a dual hump distribution may require slowing higher speed part of distribution, accelerating lower speed part of distribution (well, IF possible - as mentioned above, heavy truck in the mountains is physically unable to do that; but accelerating it will improve things) and sorting traffic between lanes.
Quote from: Duke87 on June 01, 2016, 10:37:34 PM
As for the issue of people merging in too closely in front of other vehicles, that is also bad and dangerous behavior. But that doesn't mean the alternative is to just stay in the left lane, the proper alternative is to move right when you have sufficient space to safely do so.
IF, not
WHEN. At certain traffic density that becomes a critical difference.
Just found an interesting summary of state laws, looks like there are several approaches:
1. Keep right except to pass: IL, IN, LA, MA, NJ, many roads posted as such in TX - 5.5 total; CO, KY, ME - same at 65 MPH or higher limit (3 more)
2. slower traffic keep right (IMHO most reasonable approach): AL, AZ, CA, CO, DE, HI, ID, IA, MN, MS, MI, MT, NE, NH, NM, NY, ND, OK, OR, RI, SC, TN, TX, VT, WV, WY; CT - same AND no passing in right lane with 2 travel lanes in same direction (???) ]\- seem most common
3. Yield to faster traffic (I am not sure where it land between 1 and 2): FL, GA, UT, VA - 4 (TN also moves here in july)
4. cannot go below speed limit in left: AK, NC, OH, PR (I wonder how that works is congested or stop-and-go traffic) - 4 total
5. SD, NV: SLOW (not slower!) vehicles need to keep right. NV has strange wording, somewhat closer to "yield" - 2 total
Rules are a often bit fuzzy, WA for example is "except to pass" - but exemption is for vehicles "moving faster than traffic". IL - has strict wordings, but left lane hogging is OK if there is now vehicle directly behind.. does that amount to "yield"?
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 08:24:08 AM
Just found an interesting summary of state laws, looks like there are several approaches:
1. Keep right except to pass: IL, IN, LA, MA, NJ, many roads posted as such in TX - 5.5 total; CO, KY, ME - same at 65 MPH or higher limit (3 more)
2. slower traffic keep right (IMHO most reasonable approach): AL, AZ, CA, CO, DE, HI, ID, IA, MN, MS, MI, MT, NE, NH, NM, NY, ND, OK, OR, RI, SC, TN, TX, VT, WV, WY; CT - same AND no passing in right lane with 2 travel lanes in same direction (???) ]\- seem most common
3. Yield to faster traffic (I am not sure where it land between 1 and 2): FL, GA, UT, VA - 4 (TN also moves here in july)
4. cannot go below speed limit in left: AK, NC, OH, PR (I wonder how that works is congested or stop-and-go traffic) - 4 total
5. SD, NV: SLOW (not slower!) vehicles need to keep right. NV has strange wording, somewhat closer to "yield" - 2 total
Rules are a often bit fuzzy, WA for example is "except to pass" - but exemption is for vehicles "moving faster than traffic". IL - has strict wordings, but left lane hogging is OK if there is now vehicle directly behind.. does that amount to "yield"?
How many states have exceptions for roads with three or more lanes?
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 08:24:08 AM
4. cannot go below speed limit in left: AK, NC, OH, PR (I wonder how that works is congested or stop-and-go traffic) - 4 total
LOL. I'd love to see the actual laws in those states. I'm quite sure the law isn't "You must illegally speed to use the left lane".
That's why those summaries, probably found on some quasi-clickbait website, aren't what should be used as guides to anything.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:18:16 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 08:24:08 AM
4. cannot go below speed limit in left: AK, NC, OH, PR (I wonder how that works is congested or stop-and-go traffic) - 4 total
LOL. I'd love to see the actual laws in those states. I'm quite sure the law isn't "You must illegally speed to use the left lane".
That's why those summaries, probably found on some quasi-clickbait website, aren't what should be used as guides to anything.
AK
13 AAC 002.50(b):
Quote
Upon all roadways outside an urban district, a vehicle other than an emergency vehicle proceeding at less than the maximum authorized speed of traffic must be driven in the right-hand lane or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when ....
NC
20-146(b):
Quote
(b) Upon all highways any vehicle proceeding at less than the legal maximum speed limit shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for thru traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn.
...
(e) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, when appropriate signs have been posted, it shall be unlawful for any person to operate a motor vehicle over and upon the inside lane, next to the median of any dual-lane highway at a speed less than the posted speed limit when the operation of said motor vehicle over and upon said inside lane shall impede the steady flow of traffic
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 09:27:34 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:18:16 AM
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 08:24:08 AM
4. cannot go below speed limit in left: AK, NC, OH, PR (I wonder how that works is congested or stop-and-go traffic) - 4 total
LOL. I'd love to see the actual laws in those states. I'm quite sure the law isn't "You must illegally speed to use the left lane".
That's why those summaries, probably found on some quasi-clickbait website, aren't what should be used as guides to anything.
AK
13 AAC 002.50(b):
Quote
Upon all roadways outside an urban district, a vehicle other than an emergency vehicle proceeding at less than the maximum authorized speed of traffic must be driven in the right-hand lane or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when ....
NC
20-146(b):
Quote
(b) Upon all highways any vehicle proceeding at less than the legal maximum speed limit shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for thru traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the highway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn.
...
(e) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, when appropriate signs have been posted, it shall be unlawful for any person to operate a motor vehicle over and upon the inside lane, next to the median of any dual-lane highway at a speed less than the posted speed limit when the operation of said motor vehicle over and upon said inside lane shall impede the steady flow of traffic
None of them said driving over the speed limit is legal in the left lane. Driving at the posted speed limit (70 in a 70) isn't driving under the speed limit.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:31:44 AM
None of them said driving over the speed limit is legal in the left lane. Driving at the posted speed limit (70 in a 70) isn't driving under the speed limit.
It is catch 22: you may be fined for 71 as well as for 69.And even cruise control may have some speed variations... Makes road profiling really simple: anyone can be pulled over without a problem.
So it's saying "keep right except to pass or while speeding", though I'm sure there are also "no speeding" laws, so basically, just like the other states.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:31:44 AM
None of them said driving over the speed limit is legal in the left lane. Driving at the posted speed limit (70 in a 70) isn't driving under the speed limit.
It is catch 22: you may be fined for 71 as well as for 69.And even cruise control may have some speed variations... Makes road profiling really simple: anyone can be pulled over without a problem.
I'm pretty sure it's written into the laws that you can't be pulled over for violating min or max speed laws by less than 5 MPH due to acceptable inaccuracies in speedometers
Quote from: bzakharin on June 02, 2016, 10:55:37 AM
So it's saying "keep right except to pass or while speeding", though I'm sure there are also "no speeding" laws, so basically, just like the other states.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:31:44 AM
None of them said driving over the speed limit is legal in the left lane. Driving at the posted speed limit (70 in a 70) isn't driving under the speed limit.
It is catch 22: you may be fined for 71 as well as for 69.And even cruise control may have some speed variations... Makes road profiling really simple: anyone can be pulled over without a problem.
I'm pretty sure it's written into the laws that you can't be pulled over for violating min or max speed laws by less than 5 MPH due to acceptable inaccuracies in speedometers
NYS specifically stresses that 1 MPH over is already punishable.
Quote from: bzakharin on June 02, 2016, 10:55:37 AM
So it's saying "keep right except to pass or while speeding", though I'm sure there are also "no speeding" laws, so basically, just like the other states.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:31:44 AM
None of them said driving over the speed limit is legal in the left lane. Driving at the posted speed limit (70 in a 70) isn't driving under the speed limit.
It is catch 22: you may be fined for 71 as well as for 69.And even cruise control may have some speed variations... Makes road profiling really simple: anyone can be pulled over without a problem.
I'm pretty sure it's written into the laws that you can't be pulled over for violating min or max speed laws by less than 5 MPH due to acceptable inaccuracies in speedometers
The tolerance for your "speedometer being out of whack" is a myth. You're supposed to have a properly maintained car. Doesn't matter what's wrong with it...that's not the cop's fault. If you have 3 brake lights but 1 is out, there's no 'tolerance' just because the other 2 are working. In PA they give you a 6 mph leeway if using radar in normal zones.. But via other means of enforcement, or in work zones, they can ticket for 1 over. Again, has nothing to do with your speedometer...it has to do with their equipment.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 07:08:12 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on June 01, 2016, 10:37:34 PM
As for the issue of people merging in too closely in front of other vehicles, that is also bad and dangerous behavior. But that doesn't mean the alternative is to just stay in the left lane, the proper alternative is to move right when you have sufficient space to safely do so.
IF, not WHEN. At certain traffic density that becomes a critical difference.
In congested traffic, (a) faster traffic is generally, in my experience, more willing to wait and less likely to engage in dangerous maneuvers; and (b) exceptions are generally written into the traffic laws. As examples of the latter, the state of Illinois specifically excludes "when traffic conditions and congestion make it impractical to drive in the right lane" from the regulation; my current home state of Kansas does not, but rather the law is restricted to highways "located outside the corporate limits of any city", which is obviously based on the same intent. When traffic is congested, in fact, it's been shown that changing lanes as little as possible is actually the best way to increase throughput; this is the reason converting one lane into an HOV lane can actually improve throughput, because lane changes are less frequent with fewer opportunities to do so.
The problem, in my experience (hardly scientific), is when drivers avoid moving right into a large-enough space because doing so would require them to slow down by 3 mph for a minute or two–instead irritating all the drivers behind them who are traveling at a higher speed. That's the sort of behavior that encourages people to cut off the right-lane vehicle, then gun it in the right lane and squeeze ahead of the left lane dawdler. If there is room enough in the right lane for the daredevil to complete that maneuver, then there was room enough for the dawdler to have moved right and "hung out" for a minute while faster traffic passed by.
As I see it, the actual speed of the vehicles in question compared to the posted speed limit shouldn't factor into the conversation. All vehicles could be going 10 mph under the limit and slower, all vehicles could be going 10 mph over the limit and faster, or it could be a mix. But slower traffic keeping right is both common courtesy on the road (almost universally) and a rule of the road (in an increasing number of jurisdictions) independent of the speed limit. Obstructing the free flow of traffic is both dangerous and illegal, no matter what absolute speed the vehicles are actually going.
Quote from: kphoger on June 02, 2016, 03:20:17 PM
If there is room enough in the right lane for the daredevil to complete that maneuver, then there was room enough for the dawdler to have moved right and "hung out" for a minute while faster traffic passed by.
+Infinity
Quote from: kphoger on June 02, 2016, 03:20:17 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 07:08:12 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on June 01, 2016, 10:37:34 PM
As for the issue of people merging in too closely in front of other vehicles, that is also bad and dangerous behavior. But that doesn't mean the alternative is to just stay in the left lane, the proper alternative is to move right when you have sufficient space to safely do so.
IF, not WHEN. At certain traffic density that becomes a critical difference.
In congested traffic, (a) faster traffic is generally, in my experience, more willing to wait and less likely to engage in dangerous maneuvers; and (b) exceptions are generally written into the traffic laws. As examples of the latter, the state of Illinois specifically excludes "when traffic conditions and congestion make it impractical to drive in the right lane" from the regulation; my current home state of Kansas does not, but rather the law is restricted to highways "located outside the corporate limits of any city", which is obviously based on the same intent. When traffic is congested, in fact, it's been shown that changing lanes as little as possible is actually the best way to increase throughput; this is the reason converting one lane into an HOV lane can actually improve throughput, because lane changes are less frequent with fewer opportunities to do so.
The problem, in my experience (hardly scientific), is when drivers avoid moving right into a large-enough space because doing so would require them to slow down by 3 mph for a minute or two–instead irritating all the drivers behind them who are traveling at a higher speed. That's the sort of behavior that encourages people to cut off the right-lane vehicle, then gun it in the right lane and squeeze ahead of the left lane dawdler. If there is room enough in the right lane for the daredevil to complete that maneuver, then there was room enough for the dawdler to have moved right and "hung out" for a minute while faster traffic passed by.
As I see it, the actual speed of the vehicles in question compared to the posted speed limit shouldn't factor into the conversation. All vehicles could be going 10 mph under the limit and slower, all vehicles could be going 10 mph over the limit and faster, or it could be a mix. But slower traffic keeping right is both common courtesy on the road (almost universally) and a rule of the road (in an increasing number of jurisdictions) independent of the speed limit. Obstructing the free flow of traffic is both dangerous and illegal, no matter what absolute speed the vehicles are actually going.
Another pet peeve of mine is shifting right, slowing down - only to realize that the guy pressing me out of left lane now went to camp out at 7 o'clock blind spot position... But that is just me
Yes, basically goal - at moderate traffic densities, 600-900 vph per lane - to form two streams in 2 lanes, with 3-5-10 MPH speed differential. That requires, among other things, top 20% to slow down. Comparing actual speed of those fast vehicles to speed limit (actually design speed or free flow speed, but those are somewhat correlated) may be useful to understand if they belong to top 20%.
In fact, at moderate-higher traffic density, there will be 2 speeds to choose from: right lane speed (strongly affected by trucks), or left lane car-mostly speed. Don't be an asshole, do not hold left lane. (heavy truck may have no other option than holding right lane, though) Do not be an asshole, do not push everyone else into right lane so you can keep your TOP-10% rating.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 03:26:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 02, 2016, 03:20:17 PM
If there is room enough in the right lane for the daredevil to complete that maneuver, then there was room enough for the dawdler to have moved right and "hung out" for a minute while faster traffic passed by.
+Infinity
No. Daredevil may be comfortable with 10' between bumpers (they can do 5 easily). Good driver should remember 2 seconds intervals.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 03:38:46 PM
Good driver should remember 2 seconds intervals.
Just pointing out that a 2-second interval is only a rule of thumb, and is not even advocated everywhere. I recall hearing from someone that students in Germany are taught a 1-second or a 1.5-second interval, and scientific studies there have shown the average interval in practice ranges from roughly 1.2 seconds to 2 seconds, with trucks not even topping 3 seconds.
[edited to add "in Germany]
You mean AAA telling us the proper spacing should be 3 seconds isn't remotely attainable in even moderately light traffic?
Quote from: kphoger on June 02, 2016, 03:57:37 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 03:38:46 PM
Good driver should remember 2 seconds intervals.
Just pointing out that a 2-second interval is only a rule of thumb, and is not even advocated everywhere. I recall hearing from someone that students in Germany are taught a 1-second or a 1.5-second interval, and scientific studies there have shown the average interval in practice ranges from roughly 1.2 seconds to 2 seconds, with trucks not even topping 3 seconds.
[edited to add "in Germany]
Doesn't look like german highways are any different from US:
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0305-4470/35/15/302/meta
German folks study traffic on german highways and see maximum throughput at 18 vehicles per km, 170' intervals - about 12 car lengths...
From an article I don't have to pay to read:
Quote from: DISTANCE BEHAVIOUR ON MOTORWAYS WITH REGARD TO ACTIVE SAFETY — A COMPARISON BETWEEN ADAPTIVE-CRUISE-CONTROL (ACC) AND DRIVER / Darmstadt University of Technology
The drivers fall below the minimum distance of 0.9 seconds as required by German law in 41% of the total time. ... Mean values of the individual drivers are in the range between 0.7 and 1.6 seconds
Quote from: kphoger on June 02, 2016, 05:44:38 PM
From an article I don't have to pay to read:
Quote from: DISTANCE BEHAVIOUR ON MOTORWAYS WITH REGARD TO ACTIVE SAFETY — A COMPARISON BETWEEN ADAPTIVE-CRUISE-CONTROL (ACC) AND DRIVER / Darmstadt University of Technology
The drivers fall below the minimum distance of 0.9 seconds as required by German law in 41% of the total time. ... Mean values of the individual drivers are in the range between 0.7 and 1.6 seconds
No contradiction.. They are looking at high traffic densities, 40+ cars per km - which means beginning of congestion, reduction of speed and skyrocketing lane changes. Of you will, their selection criteria is 60 km/h (38 MPH) at speed limits 100 and above (or no limit).
Quote from: kphoger on May 31, 2016, 05:21:11 PMNot to get all Yoda or anything, but...
reducing throughput leads to added congestion,
added congestion leads to road rage,
road rage leads to unsafe maneuvers,
unsafe maneuvers lead to accidents.
On a public policy level, added congestion leads to road rage.
In reality, individuals' lack of control over their emotions leads to road rage.
I get your point, but I tire of the idea that because a lot of people lack minimal social skills, those individuals lack personal responsibility for what they do.
I sometimes shop at an
extremely congested supermarket (Somerville Market Basket, for locals familiar). On weekends you stand and stand waiting just to move across the front of the store. Sometimes its volume, sometimes it's one person's carelessness.
If someone yelled obscenities at slow people in the supermarket, no one would stand for it. The yeller would be roundly told to be patient like everyone else. But put them in a glass box on the road, and their behavior is suddenly explainable as being caused by those around them, as part of a social phenomenon.
Quote from: Sykotyk on May 20, 2016, 12:46:00 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 19, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on May 18, 2016, 08:14:51 AM
So what is the motive for the undesirable behavior of driving slow in the left lane, and how do you remove that motive?
In my experience it is a combination of laziness and obliviousness. Someone will get in the left lane to pass a couple trucks or whatever, and then just start daydreaming and cruising in the left lane rather than moving back right, neither noticing nor caring that people are passing them on the right.
In other words, hogging the left lane is not typically something which is done deliberately for any sort of selfish gain. It is something which is done unintentionally due to a driver's lack of situational awareness.
This is therefore something that perhaps a target enforcement campaign could be good medicine for. If a driver remembers that time they got a ticket for driving too slowly in the left lane, maybe they'll pay more attention next time.
In all my years driving, less than a handful of times has it been some deliberately slow in the left lane. One of the worst offenders was someone hellbent on keeping everyone behind them. They'd speed up until there was another car beside them on the right. Then slow to match their speed. They did this for miles and miles. Had a huge line of cars. Maybe some power-hungry cog at some factory wanted to feel important.
But, more often than not, it's obliviousness or just not caring. They get in the left lane to pass someone and just stay there. Even if it's clear other traffic has come up on them. They're not moving. A lot of cell-phone yakkers or texters, as well. I guess they think in the left lane they don't have to deal with on and off ramp traffic to mess with their clear view down the road.
LOL, I have been known to do the opposite.
If I note someone in the left lane going too slow, I'll align with their vehicle and then match their speed in the right lane and then watch the fun and festivities and mayhem in the left lane.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on June 02, 2016, 10:55:37 AM
So it's saying "keep right except to pass or while speeding", though I'm sure there are also "no speeding" laws, so basically, just like the other states.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:31:44 AM
None of them said driving over the speed limit is legal in the left lane. Driving at the posted speed limit (70 in a 70) isn't driving under the speed limit.
It is catch 22: you may be fined for 71 as well as for 69.And even cruise control may have some speed variations... Makes road profiling really simple: anyone can be pulled over without a problem.
I'm pretty sure it's written into the laws that you can't be pulled over for violating min or max speed laws by less than 5 MPH due to acceptable inaccuracies in speedometers
The tolerance for your "speedometer being out of whack" is a myth. You're supposed to have a properly maintained car. Doesn't matter what's wrong with it...that's not the cop's fault. If you have 3 brake lights but 1 is out, there's no 'tolerance' just because the other 2 are working. In PA they give you a 6 mph leeway if using radar in normal zones.. But via other means of enforcement, or in work zones, they can ticket for 1 over. Again, has nothing to do with your speedometer...it has to do with their equipment.
I found this (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/393.82), applicable to buses and trucks:
"Each bus, truck, and truck-tractor must be equipped with a speedometer indicating vehicle speed in miles per hour and/or kilometers per hour. The speedometer must be accurate to within plus or minus 8 km/hr (5 mph) at a speed of 80 km/hr (50 mph)."
Now if a speedometer is allowed by law to be off by 10% in either direction, then it follows that you cannot be held accountable for doing 55 in a 50 MPH zone or 71 in a 65 zone. And it hardly makes sense to have truck and bus regulations more lenient than car regulations
Quote from: bzakharin on June 03, 2016, 11:41:46 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 12:25:43 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on June 02, 2016, 10:55:37 AM
So it's saying "keep right except to pass or while speeding", though I'm sure there are also "no speeding" laws, so basically, just like the other states.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 10:13:57 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 02, 2016, 09:31:44 AM
None of them said driving over the speed limit is legal in the left lane. Driving at the posted speed limit (70 in a 70) isn't driving under the speed limit.
It is catch 22: you may be fined for 71 as well as for 69.And even cruise control may have some speed variations... Makes road profiling really simple: anyone can be pulled over without a problem.
I'm pretty sure it's written into the laws that you can't be pulled over for violating min or max speed laws by less than 5 MPH due to acceptable inaccuracies in speedometers
The tolerance for your "speedometer being out of whack" is a myth. You're supposed to have a properly maintained car. Doesn't matter what's wrong with it...that's not the cop's fault. If you have 3 brake lights but 1 is out, there's no 'tolerance' just because the other 2 are working. In PA they give you a 6 mph leeway if using radar in normal zones.. But via other means of enforcement, or in work zones, they can ticket for 1 over. Again, has nothing to do with your speedometer...it has to do with their equipment.
I found this (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/393.82), applicable to buses and trucks:
"Each bus, truck, and truck-tractor must be equipped with a speedometer indicating vehicle speed in miles per hour and/or kilometers per hour. The speedometer must be accurate to within plus or minus 8 km/hr (5 mph) at a speed of 80 km/hr (50 mph)."
Now if a speedometer is allowed by law to be off by 10% in either direction, then it follows that you cannot be held accountable for doing 55 in a 50 MPH zone or 71 in a 65 zone. And it hardly makes sense to have truck and bus regulations more lenient than car regulations
That and the issues with keeping radar guns perfectly calibrated are why cops typically don't pull people over if doing less than 7-8 above. Too easy to fight it.
Quote from: cl94 on June 03, 2016, 12:20:16 PM
That and the issues with keeping radar guns perfectly calibrated are why cops typically don't pull people over if doing less than 7-8 above. Too easy to fight it.
If I understand things correctly, radar/lidar gun calibrations are the strongest link here. 1 MPH certification probably based on number of digits on display, not on actual accuracy which is probably way better.
Quote from: kalvado on June 03, 2016, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 03, 2016, 12:20:16 PM
That and the issues with keeping radar guns perfectly calibrated are why cops typically don't pull people over if doing less than 7-8 above. Too easy to fight it.
If I understand things correctly, radar/lidar gun calibrations are the strongest link here. 1 MPH certification probably based on number of digits on display, not on actual accuracy which is probably way better.
Except those things aren't the most accurate. They need to be calibrated daily and serviced by a licensed technician at least once a year. You can get a ticket thrown out by subpoenaing the calibration records if they are unable to prove it is calibrated often.
Quote from: bzakharin on June 03, 2016, 11:41:46 AM
I found this (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/title49/section/393.82), applicable to buses and trucks:
"Each bus, truck, and truck-tractor must be equipped with a speedometer indicating vehicle speed in miles per hour and/or kilometers per hour. The speedometer must be accurate to within plus or minus 8 km/hr (5 mph) at a speed of 80 km/hr (50 mph)."
Now if a speedometer is allowed by law to be off by 10% in either direction, then it follows that you cannot be held accountable for doing 55 in a 50 MPH zone or 71 in a 65 zone. And it hardly makes sense to have truck and bus regulations more lenient than car regulations
They are two totally distinct items. The rule is regarding a working speedometer in a commercial vehicle. It has absolutely nothing to do with leeway police have to give in regards to speeding.
To further this point: Let's say my speedometer says I'm going 55 mph when I'm really doing 60 mph, and I get pulled over in a 50 mph zone. Does the officer charge me going 10 mph over the limit or 5 mph over the limit? And if you were to say "You can't pull me over, I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit". Are you going to spend the time and money to have your speedometer tested, or are you going to argue with the cop that it's his radar gun that's wrong? And where do you go to have solid proof that your speedometer was wrong? And then, at that point, does it matter?
If that all sounds confusing, there's a reason why. Because the regulation you cited has nothing to do with speeding and leeway.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 03, 2016, 01:16:49 PM
To further this point: Let's say my speedometer says I'm going 55 mph when I'm really doing 60 mph, and I get pulled over in a 50 mph zone. Does the officer charge me going 10 mph over the limit or 5 mph over the limit? And if you were to say "You can't pull me over, I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit". Are you going to spend the time and money to have your speedometer tested, or are you going to argue with the cop that it's his radar gun that's wrong? And where do you go to have solid proof that your speedometer was wrong? And then, at that point, does it matter?
No, but if I was *really* going 55 I can argue that my speedometer was showing 50.
Quote
If that all sounds confusing, there's a reason why. Because the regulation you cited has nothing to do with speeding and leeway.
Usually, the only practical way to know how fast you are going is by having an accurate speedometer. The regulation I cited is not directly applicable to speeding leeway, but it is an acknowledgement of what can reasonably be considered an accurate speedometer. What other way can I be sure to keep the speed limit? By always driving 5 MPH less?
Quote from: cl94 on June 03, 2016, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 03, 2016, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 03, 2016, 12:20:16 PM
That and the issues with keeping radar guns perfectly calibrated are why cops typically don't pull people over if doing less than 7-8 above. Too easy to fight it.
If I understand things correctly, radar/lidar gun calibrations are the strongest link here. 1 MPH certification probably based on number of digits on display, not on actual accuracy which is probably way better.
Except those things aren't the most accurate. They need to be calibrated daily and serviced by a licensed technician at least once a year. You can get a ticket thrown out by subpoenaing the calibration records if they are unable to prove it is calibrated often.
That is the way equipment industry makes money. Same as with inkjet printers, for example, where printers themselves are sold at a loss, and ink is the true source of money. Calibration sticker is a lot of money for not that much work. And since that is required for legal reasons....
Quote from: bzakharin on June 03, 2016, 01:38:41 PM
Usually, the only practical way to know how fast you are going is by having an accurate speedometer. The regulation I cited is not directly applicable to speeding leeway, but it is an acknowledgement of what can reasonably be considered an accurate speedometer. What other way can I be sure to keep the speed limit? By always driving 5 MPH less?
Speedometer calibration should be available... Bigger problem is that tires affect calibration quite a bit, so new tires may require recalibration. Just wear from new to minimum can be about 1 MPH at highway speed, as well as air pressure.
There are some measured miles on highway to check your speedometer. I actually use those "you drive (measurement) MPH - SLOW DOWN!" stations to check my readings. Last, but not the least, GPS seem a fairly accurate way of checking speed.
So there are a few options...
Quote from: kalvado on June 03, 2016, 02:02:52 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 03, 2016, 12:39:05 PM
Quote from: kalvado on June 03, 2016, 12:32:22 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 03, 2016, 12:20:16 PM
That and the issues with keeping radar guns perfectly calibrated are why cops typically don't pull people over if doing less than 7-8 above. Too easy to fight it.
If I understand things correctly, radar/lidar gun calibrations are the strongest link here. 1 MPH certification probably based on number of digits on display, not on actual accuracy which is probably way better.
Except those things aren't the most accurate. They need to be calibrated daily and serviced by a licensed technician at least once a year. You can get a ticket thrown out by subpoenaing the calibration records if they are unable to prove it is calibrated often.
That is the way equipment industry makes money. Same as with inkjet printers, for example, where printers themselves are sold at a loss, and ink is the true source of money. Calibration sticker is a lot of money for not that much work. And since that is required for legal reasons....
Quote from: bzakharin on June 03, 2016, 01:38:41 PM
Usually, the only practical way to know how fast you are going is by having an accurate speedometer. The regulation I cited is not directly applicable to speeding leeway, but it is an acknowledgement of what can reasonably be considered an accurate speedometer. What other way can I be sure to keep the speed limit? By always driving 5 MPH less?
Speedometer calibration should be available... Bigger problem is that tires affect calibration quite a bit, so new tires may require recalibration. Just wear from new to minimum can be about 1 MPH at highway speed, as well as air pressure.
There are some measured miles on highway to check your speedometer. I actually use those "you drive (measurement) MPH - SLOW DOWN!" stations to check my readings. Last, but not the least, GPS seem a fairly accurate way of checking speed.
So there are a few options...
Speaking of this, when a calibration is performed, are the calibrating the actual vehicle speed sensor or just the gauge on the instrument panel? On OBDII vehicles the speed can be directly read from the ECU with a scan tool.
Quote from: kalvado on June 02, 2016, 08:24:08 AM
Just found an interesting summary of state laws, looks like there are several approaches:
5. SD, NV: SLOW (not slower!) vehicles need to keep right. NV has strange wording, somewhat closer to "yield" - 2 total
Not sure what's so confusing about Nevada's wording... Reference Nevada Revised Statutes chapter 484B.627 below.
Also of note is NRS 484B.630, which requires slow vehicles turnout when impeding 5 or more vehicles. Interestingly, any vehicle not traveling the speed limit is expected to turn out.
Also interesting that violating the turnout statute is a misdemeanor offense, but a violation of the general move over law is not.
Quote from: www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-484B.html
NRS 484B.627 Duties of driver driving motor vehicle at speed so slow as to impede forward movement of traffic; prohibition against stopping vehicle on roadway so as to impede or block normal and reasonable movement of traffic; exception.
1. If any driver drives a motor vehicle at a speed so slow as to impede the forward movement of traffic proceeding immediately behind the driver, the driver shall:
(a) If the highway has one lane for traveling in each direction and the width of the paved portion permits, drive to the extreme right side of the highway and, if applicable, comply with the provisions of NRS 484B.630;
(b) If the highway has two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic traveling in the direction in which the driver is traveling, drive in the extreme right-hand lane except when necessary to pass other slowly moving vehicles; or
(c) If the highway is a controlled-access highway, use alternate routes whenever possible.
2. A person shall not bring a vehicle to a complete stop upon a roadway so as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic unless the stop is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law.
NRS 484B.630 Circumstances in which driver of slow-moving vehicle has duty to turn off roadway; penalty.
1. On a highway that has one lane for traveling in each direction, where passing is unsafe because of traffic traveling in the opposite direction or other conditions, the driver of a slow-moving vehicle, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in a line, shall, to allow the vehicles following behind to proceed, turn off the roadway:
(a) At the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the public authority having jurisdiction over the highway; or
(b) In the absence of such a designated turnout, at the nearest place where:
(1) Sufficient area for a safe turnout exists; and
(2) The circumstances and conditions are such that the driver is able to turn off the roadway in a safe manner.
2. A person who violates subsection 1 is guilty of a misdemeanor.
3. As used in this section, "slow-moving vehicle" means a vehicle that is traveling at a rate of speed which is less than the posted speed limit for the highway or portion of the highway upon which the vehicle is traveling.
Quote from: roadfro on June 05, 2016, 04:32:34 PM
Not sure what's so confusing about Nevada's wording... Reference Nevada Revised Statutes chapter 484B.627 below.
Also of note is NRS 484B.630, which requires slow vehicles turnout when impeding 5 or more vehicles. Interestingly, any vehicle not traveling the speed limit is expected to turn out.
Also interesting that violating the turnout statute is a misdemeanor offense, but a violation of the general move over law is not.
I assume turnout provision is aimed at farm/construction equipment mostly. This is very different from right lane camping. And those farm machines can be really slow - way below 30...
Our discussion is more toward traffic on divided highway - interstate grade road I would say. I wonder what NV consider "slow" in those cases. "slower" may be interpreted as "below average", but just "slow"? Grain harvester doing 20 in 70 MPH zone, or someone going speed limit is included as well? Most complains here, I assume, are toward those driving below speed limit +10...
I thought of this thread when I watched someone deal with a left lane camper a few days ago on the evening commute. The camper (out of state driver, as usual), two cars ahead of me, was holding up a line of cars in the left lane on the Garden State Parkway. The car in front of me found a small gap in the center lane and quickly zoomed around and pulled in front of the camper. He then proceeded to gradually slow down to just below the camper's speed (not a brake check). After a short while, the camper pulled into a gap in the center lane to pass. The second he started to hit the gas to go around, the car in front gunned it and took off. The rest of us followed suit, and the entire line of cars was able to pass the camper and block him from getting back into the left lane. Our problem was solved and we were able to go about our business of getting home. Teamwork.
Quote from: kalvado on June 05, 2016, 09:12:42 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 05, 2016, 04:32:34 PM
Not sure what's so confusing about Nevada's wording... Reference Nevada Revised Statutes chapter 484B.627 below.
Also of note is NRS 484B.630, which requires slow vehicles turnout when impeding 5 or more vehicles. Interestingly, any vehicle not traveling the speed limit is expected to turn out.
Also interesting that violating the turnout statute is a misdemeanor offense, but a violation of the general move over law is not.
I assume turnout provision is aimed at farm/construction equipment mostly. This is very different from right lane camping. And those farm machines can be really slow - way below 30...
Our discussion is more toward traffic on divided highway - interstate grade road I would say. I wonder what NV consider "slow" in those cases. "slower" may be interpreted as "below average", but just "slow"? Grain harvester doing 20 in 70 MPH zone, or someone going speed limit is included as well? Most complains here, I assume, are toward those driving below speed limit +10...
Nevada considers any slow vehicle in part of this turnout provision. It's not necessarily aimed at farm/ranching equipment (not much get on highways anyway). It's more aimed at slow moving trucks, RVs, towing vehicles, etc.
With the normal slow vehicle move over provision, I think it's, unfortunately, up to interpretation. I personally call it something like 10 mph slower than the surrounding traffic or 5 mph slower than the speed limit, but that is just my thinking in my own ideal world.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on June 13, 2016, 09:04:39 PM
I thought of this thread when I watched someone deal with a left lane camper a few days ago on the evening commute. The camper (out of state driver, as usual), two cars ahead of me, was holding up a line of cars in the left lane on the Garden State Parkway. The car in front of me found a small gap in the center lane and quickly zoomed around and pulled in front of the camper. He then proceeded to gradually slow down to just below the camper's speed (not a brake check). After a short while, the camper pulled into a gap in the center lane to pass. The second he started to hit the gas to go around, the car in front gunned it and took off. The rest of us followed suit, and the entire line of cars was able to pass the camper and block him from getting back into the left lane. Our problem was solved and we were able to go about our business of getting home. Teamwork.
This is exactly why I want a V-8 engine in my next vehicle: I've actually thought about doing exactly as you described before. I'd be the hero of the highway.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 03, 2016, 01:16:49 PMif you were to say "You can't pull me over, I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit". Are you going to spend the time and money to have your speedometer tested, or are you going to argue with the cop that it's his radar gun that's wrong? And where do you go to have solid proof that your speedometer was wrong? And then, at that point, does it matter?
It doesn't matter, but not for the reason you think.
"I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit" is an admission of guilt. Bet your bottom dollar the cop will return to his car, write down everything you said, and issue the citation. Any discussion of speedometer error is irrelevant. Take it to court and you're doubly screwed, as the cop's contemporaneous notes on your statement will show that you knew what the speed limit was and admitted exceeding it.
Never run your mouth with a cop present. Think before you speak.
Quote from: SidS1045 on June 14, 2016, 11:03:47 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 03, 2016, 01:16:49 PMif you were to say "You can't pull me over, I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit". Are you going to spend the time and money to have your speedometer tested, or are you going to argue with the cop that it's his radar gun that's wrong? And where do you go to have solid proof that your speedometer was wrong? And then, at that point, does it matter?
It doesn't matter, but not for the reason you think.
"I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit" is an admission of guilt. Bet your bottom dollar the cop will return to his car, write down everything you said, and issue the citation. Any discussion of speedometer error is irrelevant. Take it to court and you're doubly screwed, as the cop's contemporaneous notes on your statement will show that you knew what the speed limit was and admitted exceeding it.
Never run your mouth with a cop present. Think before you speak.
While that is true sometimes, it's not everytime. Case in point: Me.
I have literally told a cop I was speeding. I clearly indicted myself. But you know what? I pulled over, well off the road. I kept my hands in clear view. I waited until the officer asked for identification. I didn't give the officer a hard time. I didn't argue.
And I left, almost always without a ticket, and often times with a verbal warning to slow it down a bit. The few times I have received a ticket, I've gone to court and asked to have the ticket downgraded. Every time, it's happened. In the most memorable time, I was stopped for tailgating a cop in PA (I live in NJ). Because of court postponements, I didn't have my day in court until 4 months after the ticket was issued. The cop, then since promoted, clearly didn't remember me. I told him what I would like to downgrade the ticket to (which was a fine with no points). The officer talked with the judge and was ok with my recommendation (hell, we even joked at one point). He charged me with a charge that ironically couldn't apply to me in my home state (failure to sign registration card). But in the end, we were all pleased with the outcome.
There are bigger fish to fry - the person after me in court, a cute, younger 20-something, was in there for a DUI and other violations.
Most people read horror stories on the internet, take them for truth, and pass them along. Or don't tell the entire story. We are always reading that cops stop people when they were doing nothing wrong. I drive every day, and it's a rare car that I'm not seeing doing anything wrong. I doubt a cop is going to ignore the thousands of vehicles speeding, tailgating, and driving like a lunatic to get someone doing 'nothing'.
I'm living proof that I can sit there, be blatantly honest, and continue on my way.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2016, 11:31:29 AM
Quote from: SidS1045 on June 14, 2016, 11:03:47 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 03, 2016, 01:16:49 PMif you were to say "You can't pull me over, I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit". Are you going to spend the time and money to have your speedometer tested, or are you going to argue with the cop that it's his radar gun that's wrong? And where do you go to have solid proof that your speedometer was wrong? And then, at that point, does it matter?
It doesn't matter, but not for the reason you think.
"I was only going 55 mph, and that's just 5 mph over the limit" is an admission of guilt. Bet your bottom dollar the cop will return to his car, write down everything you said, and issue the citation. Any discussion of speedometer error is irrelevant. Take it to court and you're doubly screwed, as the cop's contemporaneous notes on your statement will show that you knew what the speed limit was and admitted exceeding it.
Never run your mouth with a cop present. Think before you speak.
While that is true sometimes, it's not everytime. Case in point: Me.
I have literally told a cop I was speeding. I clearly indicted myself. But you know what? I pulled over, well off the road. I kept my hands in clear view. I waited until the officer asked for identification. I didn't give the officer a hard time. I didn't argue.
And I left, almost always without a ticket, and often times with a verbal warning to slow it down a bit. The few times I have received a ticket, I've gone to court and asked to have the ticket downgraded. Every time, it's happened. In the most memorable time, I was stopped for tailgating a cop in PA (I live in NJ). Because of court postponements, I didn't have my day in court until 4 months after the ticket was issued. The cop, then since promoted, clearly didn't remember me. I told him what I would like to downgrade the ticket to (which was a fine with no points). The officer talked with the judge and was ok with my recommendation (hell, we even joked at one point). He charged me with a charge that ironically couldn't apply to me in my home state (failure to sign registration card). But in the end, we were all pleased with the outcome.
There are bigger fish to fry - the person after me in court, a cute, younger 20-something, was in there for a DUI and other violations.
Most people read horror stories on the internet, take them for truth, and pass them along. Or don't tell the entire story. We are always reading that cops stop people when they were doing nothing wrong. I drive every day, and it's a rare car that I'm not seeing doing anything wrong. I doubt a cop is going to ignore the thousands of vehicles speeding, tailgating, and driving like a lunatic to get someone doing 'nothing'.
I'm living proof that I can sit there, be blatantly honest, and continue on my way.
Of course it's not going to happen every time, but if you *don't* admit you were speeding, it won't make the situation any worse for you, and might make it better should you have grounds to deny you were speeding in court.