Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Some states send out warning letters for people that speed through toll gantries and will revoke EZ Pass accounts. I have an article below.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/19/ez-pass-and-speeding/20558251/
Maybe drivers think the cameras are to detect speed and issue tickets, instead of tolls?
Quote from: peterj920 on May 22, 2016, 01:47:38 AM
Some states send out warning letters for people that speed through toll gantries and will revoke EZ Pass accounts. I have an article below.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/19/ez-pass-and-speeding/20558251/
ISTHA has not, and does not.
Quote from: peterj920 on May 22, 2016, 01:47:38 AM
Some states send out warning letters for people that speed through toll gantries and will revoke EZ Pass accounts. I have an article below.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/12/19/ez-pass-and-speeding/20558251/
That's not what ET21 is referring to...he's referring to the open road high speed pantries.
Some people may think they could get a ticket for speeding because of the cameras. Some people get nervous, as in some cases the shoulder narrows. Maybe they think by slowing down it will allow the reader to see the sensor better. Maybe they are holding the tag and simply aren't concentrating.
Its just like every other aspect of driving. People do things all the time that simply don't make any sense. Sometimes, those people aren't even truly aware of what they're doing!
I can think of at least reasons (thinking from NY perspective):
-giving more time for the system to read the pass - and avoid all the trouble of improperly paid toll. Last week I was driving Tollway with NY EZPass in a rental car with CA plates.. I REALLY wanted things to go smoothly!
-drivers used to older readers: although there is a free flow barrier on a Thruway, most toll booths are 5 MPH, with some "advanced" 20 MPH ones. Since there are manned lanes, people are actually walking between toll booths, and lower speed limit makes some sense.
I often wondered the same thing on roads like Florida's Turnpike where you are speeding along through open country from Orlando at 70 MPH south to the Palm Beach area where the open gantry makes you go down to 55 MPH suddenly then back up to 65 MPH? Tollroads like 589, 417 and 408 don't have open gantry slow downs...so why the Turnpike?
Quote from: kalvado on May 22, 2016, 11:03:08 AM
I can think of at least reasons (thinking from NY perspective):
-giving more time for the system to read the pass - and avoid all the trouble of improperly paid toll. Last week I was driving Tollway with NY EZPass in a rental car with CA plates.. I REALLY wanted things to go smoothly!
The problem with this theory is that the open road gantries are designed to capture people going fast. Very fast. I go thru at nearly 80 mph sometimes without an issue. What would the difference be if someone is going 65 or 55 mph...it's literally microseconds that the reader and transponder will see each other. And problems that can develop are people not expecting you to slow down suddenly are on your tail, increasing the likelihood of an incident.
I recall when the Pocahontas Parkway (VA-895) opened, there was a news article somewhere saying the Virginia State Police had tested the ORT lanes and found they would read an E-ZPass at least up to 100 mph. Apparently the police weren't too pleased with the media for reporting that, either, because they thought people might try to go faster to see if it'd still work.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 22, 2016, 11:40:52 AM
The problem with this theory is that the open road gantries are designed to capture people going fast. Very fast. I go thru at nearly 80 mph sometimes without an issue. What would the difference be if someone is going 65 or 55 mph...it's literally microseconds that the reader and transponder will see each other. And problems that can develop are people not expecting you to slow down suddenly are on your tail, increasing the likelihood of an incident.
Microsecond is a very optimistic number. Those tags, per Kapsch, communicate at 500 kbps, and have a 256 bit or 512 bit code. CRC and protocol overheads probably bring that to 1-1.5 millisecond per read. During that time vehicle moves, roughly speaking, 1.5 inches. That provides probably single digits to low double digits communication attempts per pass at highway speed. IL Tollway, if I remember correctly, has 3 gantries per checkpoint, for lets say, 30 communication rounds. Should be enough... Now try to explain that to my foot....
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 22, 2016, 11:40:52 AM
Quote from: kalvado on May 22, 2016, 11:03:08 AM
I can think of at least reasons (thinking from NY perspective):
-giving more time for the system to read the pass - and avoid all the trouble of improperly paid toll. Last week I was driving Tollway with NY EZPass in a rental car with CA plates.. I REALLY wanted things to go smoothly!
The problem with this theory is that the open road gantries are designed to capture people going fast. Very fast. I go thru at nearly 80 mph sometimes without an issue. What would the difference be if someone is going 65 or 55 mph...it's literally microseconds that the reader and transponder will see each other. And problems that can develop are people not expecting you to slow down suddenly are on your tail, increasing the likelihood of an incident.
I have this problem often enough at the Toms River GSP tolls on my commute. I'm usually going through the Express EZ Pass pretty fast in the left lane, and maybe a quarter of the time some clown jams on his brakes and slows to 55 (the posted speed) causing me and other cars behind to brake suddenly or dive to the right lane. More often that not it's someone with NY or other out of state plates (sorry New Yorkers, but it's often you guys that camp in the left lane on the GSP that I complained about in the recent left lane thread). Every time I'm yelling to myself "It's not clocking your speed!" or something similar - Otherwise they'd be making a killing on fines. The out of state thing is another discussion topic - the locals like myself often get annoyed with shore visitors who clog our roads and make our commutes a living Hell throughout the summer. I want to put a billboard up that says "Enjoy the Jersey Shore - But please remember people live here year round too. Please keep to the right and respect your fellow drivers". *Rant concluded*
I can think of a couple reasons the issue would be especially prevalent with NY drivers:
-The NY E-ZPass agencies DO threaten to confiscate the transponder if someone drives too fast through a booth or gantry, so a lot of people are EXTREMELY cautious around toll plazas (some even slow down to 5 mph for 20 mph lanes on the Thruway).
-At present, there are only two ORT/AET gantries in the entire state (Woodbury and the Tappan Zee; the Henry Hudson bridge still uses the booths despite being AET). People are used to our older readers that require people to slow down to 5 mph.
-In many places in NY (the Capital District in rush hour and all of downstate all the time), the left lane is the only lane that moves at anything remotely resembling the speed limit, so many drivers reflexively stay there, especially if they're from downstate (as I imagine most NYers near the shore are).
Another contributing factor is the advance signage noting to keep left for the Express EZ-Pass. Even though it should be obvious from the diagrammatic signage as you get closer to the split that the center lane also leads to the Express EZ-Pass lanes as shown in the GSV link below, I still encounter drivers ambling along in the center lane who suddenly shift over to the left lane thinking that's where they need to be. They'll then slow-poke it right on through in the left lane. In this case I would prefer the down arrows showing exactly what they will get out of each lane.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0046406,-74.1996071,3a,66.8y,223.12h,90.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stmObJ6kxuCM9YH_lOXAYIQ!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0046406,-74.1996071,3a,66.8y,223.12h,90.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1stmObJ6kxuCM9YH_lOXAYIQ!2e0?force=lite)
On a side note, any reason why this is a Midwest-Great Lakes topic and not general?
^mainly because I noticed it on the Illinois tollway. Obviously this is seen elsewhere just as frequently with the replies.
Anybody got a picture? I haven't driven on toll roads much lately.
Quote from: GCrites80s on May 23, 2016, 09:20:19 PM
Anybody got a picture? I haven't driven on toll roads much lately.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Ftttetrackmaster%2Fimages%2F5%2F5d%2FTomicaWorldTollBooth.gif%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20120831235839&hash=5adec31dccfb8dcaca0ee19dcb47d348bd4026cd)
Or this...
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9966705,-74.2064109,3a,66.8y,348.7h,87.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOA8tbWqHbcZU3qhPXuGzYg!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9966705,-74.2064109,3a,66.8y,348.7h,87.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sOA8tbWqHbcZU3qhPXuGzYg!2e0?force=lite)
Seems like it could easily just be Pavlovian conditioning. Lots of signs and flashing lights have been telling people for years to slow down when passing through an EZPass (or equivalent) lane. Even the high speed lanes usually have a conspicuously lowered speed limit in the vicinity of the plaza.
By various means, we've been trained that we're supposed to slow down for tolls and so we do it out of habit without thinking about it. Lots of people have no technical understanding of how the system works and thus can't really think about it.
The Atlantic City Expressway has "Keep Moving" signs on the express toll lanes
Modern toll systems can read vehicle information at high speeds. On a couple of new, not-yet-open, toll roads officials invited a race driver to go very fast through the toll point to test the equipment. It read the tag and license plate at speeds in excess of 200 mph. However, older practices persist for a long time, and in places that once had lower speed limits for toll points people will keep slowing down even when they no longer need to.
Quote from: bzakharin on May 24, 2016, 12:24:08 PM
The Atlantic City Expressway has "Keep Moving" signs on the express toll lanes
The ORT lanes in Hooksett and Hampton (NH) have signs reading "DO NOT STOP"
How is the average motorist supposed to know what equipment is new and which isn't? Much of the E-ZPass infrastructure out east is antiquated, even the ORT equipment at the Spring Valley toll barrier.
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
Quote from: Brandon on May 24, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
So they are in the wrong when they are going the speed limit, AND when they are speeding?
Quote from: bzakharin on May 24, 2016, 12:24:08 PM
The Atlantic City Expressway has "Keep Moving" signs on the express toll lanes
Which, IMHO,
should be a lot larger than they are (sign shown to the left) (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Egg+Harbor+Township,+NJ/@39.5134634,-74.6859975,3a,60y,313.37h,85.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNSBPa-vHwZBTaeIfOuqkWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c0c2bad0107995:0x902b4c3628d7ad4d!8m2!3d39.3822537!4d-74.6166192!6m1!1e1).
Quote from: vdeane on May 24, 2016, 12:54:51 PM
How is the average motorist supposed to know what equipment is new and which isn't? Much of the E-ZPass infrastructure out east is antiquated, even the ORT equipment at the Spring Valley toll barrier.
This is really what it comes down to. Drivers don't know what speed the equipment can handle, so when lower speed is required, lower limits should be set. If no lower limit is in place, just go through at the speed limit.
I can understand if people going over the speed limit slow down to the limit, for fear of a misread and toll violation, but there's no reason to go slower than that (if there is, the toll zone limit should be lower). In each case, the signs tell us what to do. If there are no special signs, just go through at safe and legal speeds and don't make sudden changes. If a toll point is converted to a full-speed system, it's reasonable to put new signs telling drivers to keep moving, to help people break the habit of slowing down.
Quote from: wxfree on May 24, 2016, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 24, 2016, 12:54:51 PM
How is the average motorist supposed to know what equipment is new and which isn't? Much of the E-ZPass infrastructure out east is antiquated, even the ORT equipment at the Spring Valley toll barrier.
This is really what it comes down to. Drivers don't know what speed the equipment can handle, so when lower speed is required, lower limits should be set. If no lower limit is in place, just go through at the speed limit.
We all know that slowing down to speed limit+10 in left lane is already seen as a bad thing....
Manufacturer of EZpass equipment specifies entire product line for 100 MPH reads - although I am not sure if that applies to earlier tags (I believe my older tag is about 8 years old, and they replace tags after 10 years due to battery lifetime). It took some effort to find that information, though..
Quote from: wxfree on May 24, 2016, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 24, 2016, 12:54:51 PM
How is the average motorist supposed to know what equipment is new and which isn't? Much of the E-ZPass infrastructure out east is antiquated, even the ORT equipment at the Spring Valley toll barrier.
This is really what it comes down to. Drivers don't know what speed the equipment can handle, so when lower speed is required, lower limits should be set. If no lower limit is in place, just go through at the speed limit.
I can understand if people going over the speed limit slow down to the limit, for fear of a misread and toll violation, but there's no reason to go slower than that (if there is, the toll zone limit should be lower).
Actually, that's the complaint that started this whole thread...people slowing down to the speed limit!
QuoteIn each case, the signs tell us what to do. If there are no special signs, just go through at safe and legal speeds and don't make sudden changes. If a toll point is converted to a full-speed system, it's reasonable to put new signs telling drivers to keep moving, to help people break the habit of slowing down.
The real issue is breaking the habit as to looking for a sign telling you that the toll was paid.
I've often said those readers telling people "EZ Pass Paid" were always a bad idea. You're never supposed to stop in an EZ Pass lane, and there's nothing anyone in the toll plaza can do about it anyway. It conditioned some people to slow down and read the screen. As time went on, most people using EZ Pass on a regular basis and not afraid of the system will often zoom thru without reading it. But for those people that habitually slow down to read the message, when they use the open highway system, there's nothing to confirm the toll was paid. Those are the people that tend to slow down the most. But in reality, regardless if you went 45 mph or 85 mph, if the transponder is mounted properly it would be read.
Quote from: wxfree on May 24, 2016, 02:04:50 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 24, 2016, 12:54:51 PM
How is the average motorist supposed to know what equipment is new and which isn't? Much of the E-ZPass infrastructure out east is antiquated, even the ORT equipment at the Spring Valley toll barrier.
This is really what it comes down to. Drivers don't know what speed the equipment can handle, so when lower speed is required, lower limits should be set. If no lower limit is in place, just go through at the speed limit.
I can understand if people going over the speed limit slow down to the limit, for fear of a misread and toll violation, but there's no reason to go slower than that (if there is, the toll zone limit should be lower). In each case, the signs tell us what to do. If there are no special signs, just go through at safe and legal speeds and don't make sudden changes. If a toll point is converted to a full-speed system, it's reasonable to put new signs telling drivers to keep moving, to help people break the habit of slowing down.
Well the ETC only lanes with gates in them need to go even more so for RAMP Tolls. All most took one out in IN. Sign says 15MPH but I was thinking like the IL ones posted like 15-30 but people going faster then that. Then seeing the gate deep down the lane. Was able to slow down by the time it went up just brushed it
I assume the ETC only lanes with gates can function as cash lanes, either automated or manned, if needed (and probably were converted from such)
They use gates to keep people from flying thru. At least the plazas in Philly & NYC converted to speed gates. I've timed the Walt Whitman Bridge ones well enough to know that at 22 mph it gives them enough time to rise. I think the Ohio plaza uses older gates that slowly take their time to rise.
The US 1 DRJTBC ones were the worst. The reader was so far under the plaza you practically had the car kissing the gate for the transponder to be read. They finally removed the gates.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 24, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
So they are in the wrong when they are going the speed limit, AND when they are speeding?
Illinois: no driver obeys the speed limit. If you follow the 55 mph, you'll get pushed off the road. Sad but true.
Quote from: ET21 on May 24, 2016, 11:19:30 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 24, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
So they are in the wrong when they are going the speed limit, AND when they are speeding?
Illinois: no driver obeys the speed limit. If you follow the 55 mph, you'll get pushed off the road. Sad but true.
Except when they go under the toll gantry, where they go the speed limit, but are nonetheless ridiculed for slowing down. Even though they are also ridiculed for going 80+.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 24, 2016, 11:39:16 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 24, 2016, 11:19:30 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 24, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
So they are in the wrong when they are going the speed limit, AND when they are speeding?
Illinois: no driver obeys the speed limit. If you follow the 55 mph, you'll get pushed off the road. Sad but true.
Except when they go under the toll gantry, where they go the speed limit, but are nonetheless ridiculed for slowing down. Even though they are also ridiculed for going 80+.
It's the inconsistency, not the speed that's the issue.
Quote from: ET21 on May 24, 2016, 11:19:30 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 24, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
So they are in the wrong when they are going the speed limit, AND when they are speeding?
Illinois: no driver obeys the speed limit. If you follow the 55 mph, you'll get pushed off the road. Sad but true.
Guaranteed 100% of motorists are not exceeding the speed limit.
Quote from: Brandon on May 25, 2016, 06:22:45 AM
It's the inconsistency, not the speed that's the issue.
This exactly. It's the drivers who jam on their brakes just before the toll that are the problem.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2016, 08:46:27 AM
Quote from: ET21 on May 24, 2016, 11:19:30 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 24, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
So they are in the wrong when they are going the speed limit, AND when they are speeding?
Illinois: no driver obeys the speed limit. If you follow the 55 mph, you'll get pushed off the road. Sad but true.
Guaranteed 100% of motorists are not exceeding the speed limit.
Come on over, you'll see within the first minute
Quote from: jakeroot on May 24, 2016, 11:39:16 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 24, 2016, 11:19:30 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 24, 2016, 12:59:53 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 22, 2016, 01:44:10 AM
Coming home late tonight from work, I noticed this. Cars slowing down to 55-60 mph while passing through the open toll lanes. Anyone have an idea as to why? I know if there is a specific speed limit for the sensors and cameras to not detect your plates or I-Pass.
Because they're typical ignorant FIB morons who think that they might get a ticket for speed through the ORT part even when ISTHA has stated that they do not and will not fine for speed through them. Of course, these are the same assholes who then speed up to 80+ between the toll plazas pretending the tollway is their personal autobahn.
So they are in the wrong when they are going the speed limit, AND when they are speeding?
Illinois: no driver obeys the speed limit. If you follow the 55 mph, you'll get pushed off the road. Sad but true.
Except when they go under the toll gantry, where they go the speed limit, but are nonetheless ridiculed for slowing down. Even though they are also ridiculed for going 80+.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't unfortunately