I briefly discussed this with cl94 while we are on the road during the GTA roadmeet today. But there are many reasons why I think the FYA is an overall bad idea....while there are a few pros involved, I think the cons outweigh the pros here and let me explain why.
As we know, the FYA eliminates the issue of yellow trap scenarios, but that's a moot point here anyway, as creating any phasing that causes a yellow trap situation is illegal in Ontario.
Let's be brutally honest, the yellow trap only becomes an issue if you choose to use these phases for signals. The lagging permissive-protected left turn and the leading-lagging permissive-protected left turn. Personally, I don't see the first option really having any practicality and being better than a leading permissive-protected left turn. If someone can bring forth a strong argument on why lagging left has a stronger advantage over leading left, I'd like to hear it. As for leading-lagging left, I could see a possible benefit if one particular direction has a stronger demand in traffic proceeding straight, but what can be accomplished here in this case could easily be accomplished with a leading simultaneous left turn in which one of the sides ends early, effectively making one direction get a preemptive jump on the light.
Another thing I hear as a positive is that a FYA light allows the phasing to change from fully protected to permissive-protective.
While indeed this is a positive, I guess it depends on where you live, but in MOST intersections here in the GTA and Ontario, fully protected lefts are put on situations in which there are 2 left turning lanes. BUT, there is NOWHERE in Ontario where 2 left turn lanes get a PPLT. I can understand issues with line of sight from the outer left turn lane being a factor as to why they never allow it. As for single lane fully protected left turns, is there a serious reason why this kind of light should ever exist? Other than if the intention is to give it lagging left phasing, this is the only reason why a single left turning lane should ever get a fully protect left turn. I understand that this kind of phasing occurs on Lake Shore Blvd and Ellis Ave if I recall. In this case, a FYA is an improvement, I will admit.
I've also heard at one point that FYA is introduced because drivers don't understand what "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN" means. No offense, but if you don't know the basics in that you should make a left turn only if it is safe to do so with no oncoming traffic, you shouldn't be driving in the first place! But hold that thought for a second as I combine it with my next point below.
In another thread where I discussed ambiguity regarding the flashing red signal, I suggested that a new red/yellow flashing signal be introduced, and cbeach40 responded with an excellent point, the cost to implement something like that would be VERY expensive. Now consider, if every state is to replace their traditional arrow PPLT signals, call them doghouses, or 5 heads, or 4 heads (which they use here) that alone would cost BILLIONS.
Now back to my previous point about yielding on green, if drivers now need this new flashing yellow arrow signal to tell them that they can only turn if safe to do so, you then get to the point where not only PPLT signals need to be replaced, but EVERY SINGLE traffic light out there, the ones that don't have anything special for left turns, would have to be reconfigured to have a special signal for going straight/right and a special signal for turning left. This leads to consistency across the board, I imagine such a signal being a 3 head with from top to the bottom, red arrow, solid yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow. Thus you eliminate "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN" altogether.
Now to my main criticism that started all of this
Even if you ignore all the points above, one thing that is very important when designing any kind of traffic control is not allowing any ambiguity to happen. If such a device can have two meanings, it's purpose is lost. Unfortunately I hate to say this, but for the most part, drivers are indeed idiots, and we do have to dumb things down and make it as simple as possible.
To cut to the main point, the flashing yellow arrow signal is not the ambiguity, but inadvertently, they have created an ambiguity with the SOLID yellow arrow.
Let me explain, if a FYA signal is given a leading left sequence, pay attention to this sequence, I will writeit down below, the sequence of the left arrow and the main light:
LEFT SIGNAL MAIN SIGNAL
Red Arrow Red Ball
Green Arrow Red Ball
SOLID Yellow Arrow Red Ball
Red Arrow Red Ball
FLASHING Yellow Arrow Green Ball
SOLID Yellow Arrow Yellow Ball
Red Arrow Red Ball
When the solid yellow arrow appears during the protected phase, it means the same thing as we always know it to mean, the right of way on the left turn is ending. However, when the solid yellow arrow appears during the second phase, in which the main light is now a yellow ball, we have a situation where a solid yellow arrow appears in which that movement DOES NOT have the right of way. This alone is why I am very critical of the FYA sequencing. Sure, one should see that the yellow arrow is blinking, but let's be honest for a second, it is ingrained in our minds that a yellow arrow means MAKE THAT LEFT TURN RIGHT NOW. This alone also ELIMINATES the case in that arrow signals ALWAYS signify that the specific movement shown by the arrow signal has right of way.
One such solution I propose is to use a 5 signal head, and instead of the flashing yellow arrow, use a flashing yellow ball (of course make it clear that this light is for left movements only) and instead of the solid yellow arrow in the regular phase, use a yellow ball. This eliminates the newly created ambiguity.
So anyways folks, this is my rant about this.
In Oregon, where the FYA is very very common and has been for a decade or so, the phasing goes something more like this:
LEFT SIGNAL MAIN SIGNAL
Red Arrow Red Ball <Begin protected turn phase>
Green Arrow Red Ball
SOLID Yellow Arrow Red Ball
Red Arrow Red Ball <End protected turn phase>
Red Arrow Green Ball <Begin thru phase>
FLASHING Yellow Arrow Green Ball <Begin permissive turn phase>
SOLID Yellow Arrow Green Ball
Red Arrow Yellow Ball <End permissive turn phase>
Red Arrow Red Ball <End thru phase>
The permissive turn phase starts after and ends before the thru traffic (normal) phase. This has two effects.
First, thru traffic is given a brief period where they can be sure there are no left turns happening. This serves to clear out thru traffic backed up at the intersection, so that left turns in the permissive phase won't get stalled.
Second, by ending the permissive turn phase before the thru phase, this eliminates (or at least minimizes) your primary concern over the "gun it" mentality when turning.
Also, there seems to be a mix of FYA signals used in Oregon, one with three heads (flashing yellow and solid green arrows are shared on the bottom head) and one with four (solid yellow arrow above flashing yellow arrow). In both cases, the solid and flashing yellow arrows are displayed on separate heads.
(edit: whoops, posted too early)
Ok, what I actually described was a simultaneous leading left...but whatever we will stick with this example. I was just pointing out my mistake.
Anyways, even if the main light remains green in the permissive phase while the left gets a solid yellow, this does not mean that the solid yellow arrow avoids the pitfall I'm talking about.
By the rule book we all know what a solid yellow arrow is supposed to mean, complete the turn if in the intersection and do not start the turn if you are not in the intersection.
Fair enough, but in reality, usually one or two vehicles finds a way to squeeze by even when a solid yellow arrow appears, this doesn't pose much of a problem in the pre FYA PPLT signals. However during the permissive phase, the solid yellow arrow appears while the left is not protected, this means that a driver deciding to gun it can create a nasty collision with oncoming vehicle. Remember what I said, most drivers are idiots.
Quote from: opspe on June 12, 2016, 01:46:08 AM
Second, by ending the permissive turn phase before the thru phase, this eliminates (or at least minimizes) your primary concern over the "gun it" mentality when turning.
Are you absolutely certain that this is the case? You're describing a variation of the yellow trap. FYA's and through signals need to be tied together. If the FYA goes red before the through traffic, any traffic waiting in the junction to turn left will start to go, even though oncoming traffic doesn't have a red.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 12, 2016, 02:19:15 AM
Quote from: opspe on June 12, 2016, 01:46:08 AM
Second, by ending the permissive turn phase before the thru phase, this eliminates (or at least minimizes) your primary concern over the "gun it" mentality when turning.
Are you absolutely certain that this is the case? You're describing a variation of the yellow trap. FYA's and through signals need to be tied together. If the FYA goes red before the through traffic, any traffic waiting in the junction to turn left will start to go, even though oncoming traffic doesn't have a red.
Not a variation of a yellow trap situation, IT IS a yellow trap situation. Good catch.
So the ambiguity is the solid yellow arrow means two different things, depending on what directly preceded it? Either 'make protected left turn if unable to stop safely' if following a green arrow or 'make left turn to clear intersection when safe' following a FYA.
I would argue that in most cases the context of what light was showing before the change to solid yellow is enough for drivers to understand what to do. If you see only the solid yellow come on without noticing what came before it, then it's probably because the intersection just came into view and the light will be red by the time you get to it anyway.
But to account for people who maybe aren't paying attention to the signal before it changes, one alternative might be to have a dual-mode solid yellow signal, that can either show a ball or an arrow depending on the phase it is terminating. So you get either
Green arrow -- yellow arrow -- red arrow
or
Flashing yellow arrow -- yellow ball -- red arrow
This would also help people to react faster to the end of the permissive phase, especially at night as the signal changes shape instead of just stopping flashing.
FWIW my jurisdiction has ruled out the use of FYAs on the basis that they feel drivers will consider any arrow indication other than red to be an invitation to turn without yielding - which isn't what has been seen elsewhere but anyway. They are completely happy to leave yellow traps in place at railroad-preempted intersections though. :banghead:
You bring up a very good point, MisterSG1. Granted, I'm not totally certain that this is really that big of an issue. But, it's an interesting point nonetheless.
Washington's RCW (the lawbook) defines a solid yellow
indication as follows:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.055
(2) Steady yellow indication
(a) Vehicle operators facing a steady circular yellow or yellow arrow signal are thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter when vehicular traffic shall not enter the intersection...
My interpretation here is that a solid yellow means two different things, depending on whether or not it was preceded by a green arrow, or something else.
Your assumption is that drivers will see a yellow arrow, automatically assume it was preceded by a green arrow, and gun it straight into oncoming traffic. I know drivers aren't brilliant, but that's a whole other level of stupidity. I mean, it's not beyond some drivers, for sure, but I don't think it's something that occurs often.
The prime advantages of the FYA, AFAIC, are the ability to create TOD phasing, mix leading and lagging protected turns, as well as permit leading pedestrian intervals (allowing peds to start crossing before the FYA comes on). None of these things are really possible with 4/5-section towers. While there is some ambiguity as to what the solid yellow arrow means, I don't think it's as big of a deal when you consider the upsides of FYAs.
FWIW, to the best of my knowledge, fully protected single-lane left turns are generally used only when it's insanely busy, to prevent people from splitting gaps in oncoming traffic that would ordinarily be too small, but become huge when there road is handling more cars than usual.
Quote from: Jet380 on June 12, 2016, 02:39:41 AM
FWIW my jurisdiction has ruled out the use of FYAs on the basis that they feel drivers will consider any arrow indication other than red to be an invitation to turn without yielding - which isn't what has been seen elsewhere but anyway.
Is there any official documentation on that? It's not that I don't believe you (I do), but I had no idea that Australia had considered the FYA as a right turn signal.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 02:32:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 12, 2016, 02:19:15 AM
Quote from: opspe on June 12, 2016, 01:46:08 AM
Second, by ending the permissive turn phase before the thru phase, this eliminates (or at least minimizes) your primary concern over the "gun it" mentality when turning.
Are you absolutely certain that this is the case? You're describing a variation of the yellow trap. FYA's and through signals need to be tied together. If the FYA goes red before the through traffic, any traffic waiting in the junction to turn left will start to go, even though oncoming traffic doesn't have a red.
Not a variation of a yellow trap situation, IT IS a yellow trap situation. Good catch.
I only said variation because, when the red arrow is displayed, oncoming traffic has a yellow signal instead of a green. Still a trap, but it's only for three or four seconds, versus however long an opposing lagging protected turn might last.
I guess I'm more used to the Vancouver-style yellow trap, i.e. where cars are stuck in an intersection trying to turn left literally until the cross traffic gets a green, and often times after. People (including 60' articulated buses) routinely run left turns on red, tailing all the cars piled up in the yellow trap. So for here, FYA would be a big improvement.
Quote from: opspe on June 12, 2016, 03:10:01 AM
I guess I'm more used to the Vancouver-style yellow trap, i.e. where cars are stuck in an intersection trying to turn left literally until the cross traffic gets a green, and often times after. People (including 60' articulated buses) routinely run left turns on red, tailing all the cars piled up in the yellow trap. So for here, FYA would be a big improvement.
Washington or BC? BC is crazy about piling as many cars into the junction as possible during the permissive phase, behavior that I don't witness as often here in Washington.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 12, 2016, 03:12:06 AM
Quote from: opspe on June 12, 2016, 03:10:01 AM
I guess I'm more used to the Vancouver-style yellow trap, i.e. where cars are stuck in an intersection trying to turn left literally until the cross traffic gets a green, and often times after. People (including 60' articulated buses) routinely run left turns on red, tailing all the cars piled up in the yellow trap. So for here, FYA would be a big improvement.
Washington or BC? BC is crazy about piling as many cars into the junction as possible during the permissive phase, behavior that I don't witness as often here in Washington.
BC. The only proper protected left turn signals in this city are in provincially maintained intersections, which basically just means at freeway offramps. Of which there are a grand total of two.
Quote from: opspe on June 12, 2016, 03:18:36 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 12, 2016, 03:12:06 AM
Quote from: opspe on June 12, 2016, 03:10:01 AM
I guess I'm more used to the Vancouver-style yellow trap, i.e. where cars are stuck in an intersection trying to turn left literally until the cross traffic gets a green, and often times after. People (including 60' articulated buses) routinely run left turns on red, tailing all the cars piled up in the yellow trap. So for here, FYA would be a big improvement.
Washington or BC? BC is crazy about piling as many cars into the junction as possible during the permissive phase, behavior that I don't witness as often here in Washington.
BC. The only proper protected left turn signals in this city are in provincially maintained intersections, which basically just means at freeway offramps. Of which there are a grand total of two.
I was confused about where you were located. Your location indicates the US, your avatar says Oregon, but your posts say BC. Anyways, yeah, within the city, there are very few protected turns. The first location I thought of was the left turn onto Hwy 1 SB from E 1 Ave (MOT maintained, as you indicate).
We ought to have a meetup one day. I'm in Vancouver all the time. I'll message you sometime in the future, to avoid getting too off-topic here.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 12, 2016, 03:05:48 AM
Is there any official documentation on that? It's not that I don't believe you (I do), but I had no idea that Australia had considered the FYA as a right turn signal.
It's nothing officially documented or anything, but this is from a response to an enquiry I sent a while ago:
QuoteThe Road Traffic Code currently informs drivers that if they have a green arrow then they have right of way over pedestrians if they are turning. The Australian Road Rules have the option of a flashing yellow arrow but the similarities with the green arrow may contribute to confusion about who has to give way and when. Arrow signals are used throughout Western Australia but with red and green aspects rather than a flashing yellow.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 01:32:01 AM
If someone can bring forth a strong argument on why lagging left has a stronger advantage over leading left, I'd like to hear it.
Simple answer is coordination. There are plenty of examples where you would get better coordination with lagging left turns as opposed to leading. Imagine a FYA T-intersection that is 1000 feet from the main. With lagging lefts you get the entire platoon through the intersection but with leading you cut off a lot of traffic.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2Flead-lag%2520time%2520distance_zps5zrinznx.png&hash=64ab62a90ee220d9acb57819530d58c85d42fbe7)
This site is very thorough, you may enjoy it: http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/fyatruth.htm
There are many relevant pages there.
Quote from: johndoe on June 12, 2016, 09:59:57 AM
This site is very thorough, you may enjoy it: http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/fyatruth.htm
There are many relevant pages there.
Look, I know exactly what the yellow trap is, that is not the issue. What a solid yellow arrow means in the rulebook, and what it means in reality are two separate things. My concern is a driver upon seeing a solid yellow and not paying attention to the status of the light for traffic going straight, is immediately thinking to himself, "Make that left turn and don't think", before the introduction of FYA a SYA indeed meant that ALL THE TIME, the introduction of FYA changes the meaning the of SYA.
Where I live, such single lag left or lead-lag left is never used here at all because of the issues regarding yellow trap. I'm being economical about the whole thing, is it worth it spending an astronomical amount of money to add the new signals just so we can introduce these phases which show if anything, little added benefit?
And I challenge you, those who say that the FYA allows switching between PPLT and FPLT modes....while yes it would allow the left turn mode to indeed be amphibious, the question I ask, is there anywhere that actually switches between PPLT and FPLT at different points of the day?
As for the person who mentioned TOD, I'd have to do more research on how it works in different places. Around here, streetcars/buses which have a dedicated right of way have a RYG signal that is timed precisely with the main traffic for proceeding straight. I know it's a bit off topic, but it's traffic signal phasing that is my main pet peeve and my main reason as to why I am strongly opposed to the LRT projects in Toronto that use ROW.
FYA will probably never be used in Ontario in my opinion, when you consider that yellow and red arrow signals for fully protected movements currently by law have to use ball signals, only the green gets the arrow signal. A lot of legislation would have to be changed to allow these new signals.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
And I challenge you, those who say that the FYA allows switching between PPLT and FPLT modes....while yes it would allow the left turn mode to indeed be amphibious, the question I ask, is there anywhere that actually switches between PPLT and FPLT at different points of the day?
Before the left turn mode can be amphibious, we need cars that can drive on water.
Quote from: 1 on June 12, 2016, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
And I challenge you, those who say that the FYA allows switching between PPLT and FPLT modes....while yes it would allow the left turn mode to indeed be amphibious, the question I ask, is there anywhere that actually switches between PPLT and FPLT at different points of the day?
Before the left turn mode can be amphibious, we need cars that can drive on water.
Maybe hybrid was a better word to use, but I meant amphibious as in a dual quality:
But on dictionary.com, it indeed says this using the meaning I intended:
"combining two qualities, kinds, traits, etc.; of or having a mixed or twofold nature. "
I would have to say that my preference is for lagging over leading protective/permissive lefts. The reason being is that leading lefts left to lead to a bunch of people stuck in the intersection when the signal turns red. Cross traffic then has to wait for them to complete their left turns before proceeding. Lagging lefts allow the permissive part first, letting that traffic take gaps in traffic, and waiting for the protective phase if there are no gaps. It then allows the left turn lane to clear on the protective phase after the through signal has turned red. It also means that no one is stuck in the intersection after the signal has turned red, and through traffic can start up on green much faster.
Quote from: Brandon on June 12, 2016, 11:27:20 AM
I would have to say that my preference is for lagging over leading protective/permissive lefts. The reason being is that leading lefts left to lead to a bunch of people stuck in the intersection when the signal turns red. Cross traffic then has to wait for them to complete their left turns before proceeding. Lagging lefts allow the permissive part first, letting that traffic take gaps in traffic, and waiting for the protective phase if there are no gaps. It then allows the left turn lane to clear on the protective phase after the through signal has turned red. It also means that no one is stuck in the intersection after the signal has turned red, and through traffic can start up on green much faster.
Yes I agree with you, mainly when that is used in the case of a simultaneous lagging left, which DOES NOT cause a yellow trap situation to occur. As far as I know, even that kind of phasing is never seen here and there are places where I think it should be used. There are some lagging lefts involving fully protected turns though I know on Lake Shore Blvd in downtown Toronto.
The issue as to why a FYA is needed is to allow a lagging single left (or shall I say, a lagging advanced green) to prevent the yellow trap from occurring. Is it worth the money as well to change the nature of arrow signals to allow this phase? I'm not entirely convinced a lagging advanced green phase is inherently more superior than a leading advanced green phase.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
And I challenge you, those who say that the FYA allows switching between PPLT and FPLT modes....while yes it would allow the left turn mode to indeed be amphibious, the question I ask, is there anywhere that actually switches between PPLT and FPLT at different points of the day?
Federal Way, Washington. Many of the FYAs along Hwy 99, the main artery through the city, go protected-only during rush hour.
This is a quote from Rick Perez, the city'e traffic engineer, on how they use the FYA:
Quote
My basic philosophy is the best left‐turn phase is a skipped left‐turn phase. Waiting for "green for [g]hosts" is a pet peeve of mine, so I avoid protected lefts like the plague.
Here is our current formal policy language:
"Left‐turn phasing shall be the least restrictive possible:
1. Default to permitted.
2. Protected/Permitted if needed for capacity. If exclusive left‐turn lanes are provided, flashing yellow arrow displays shall be used.
3. Protected if sight distance inadequate (based on AASHTO intersection sight distance criteria for left‐turns into minor approach ‐ Case F), high pedestrian volumes, high conflicts or accident experience, more than one left‐turn lane, or for lead/lag operation."
Current practice is evolving to flashing yellow arrow everywhere there is a dedicated left‐turn lane, and then make the decision about how to run it. One advantage of installing FYA where permitted would otherwise work just fine is in pre‐emption, but I also like having the flexibility to address transient peaks in left‐turn volumes due to detours or incidents. I also have a location that we will eventually put in FYA even though it's a dual left, and there may be more, even against 3 or 4 opposing lanes, at least by time‐of‐day. I will run a FYA approach in protected only mode by TOD if there are no gaps available.
As for sequence, if the corridor is coordinated, I'll run whatever gives me the best greenbands. I try to lag heavier movements. If the approach isn't coordinated, I lead most protected lefts (but I lag them if they are particularly heavy), and lag all FYA approaches and have the left‐turn detection extend the opposing through movements to maximize the opportunity for the left turn to move without calling up the left‐turn phase.
We use 5 left‐turn collisions per approach per year as the threshold to go to Protected Only phasing. Other than that and sight distance, I'm really leaning towards LADOT's use of gap availability by TOD.
Here's a link to the PDF with the response, along with several others from other traffic engineers: http://goo.gl/h5yuQJ
SG1, I'm not saying you don't understand, I was referring to the "other methods " on this page: http://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/leadlag.htm
Quote from: Brandon on June 12, 2016, 11:27:20 AM
I would have to say that my preference is for lagging over leading protective/permissive lefts. The reason being is that leading lefts left to lead to a bunch of people stuck in the intersection when the signal turns red. Cross traffic then has to wait for them to complete their left turns before proceeding. Lagging lefts allow the permissive part first, letting that traffic take gaps in traffic, and waiting for the protective phase if there are no gaps. It then allows the left turn lane to clear on the protective phase after the through signal has turned red. It also means that no one is stuck in the intersection after the signal has turned red, and through traffic can start up on green much faster.
In New York, only the first car and go past the stop line into the intersection. If they can't get through, the all-red phase should allow them to get out, assuming that oncoming traffic doesn't violate the red.
On Long Island, the only places you see the Green with Green Arrow after the Green phase is when its a sideways T intersection (the cross street its a T) rather than a + intersection. If its a + the green arrow comes on when the main is red, then goes Red with Yellow Arrow then Red again briefly then Green or then to Green with Left Green Arrow if theres a lot of people turning.
Quote from: vdeane on June 12, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 12, 2016, 11:27:20 AM
I would have to say that my preference is for lagging over leading protective/permissive lefts. The reason being is that leading lefts left to lead to a bunch of people stuck in the intersection when the signal turns red. Cross traffic then has to wait for them to complete their left turns before proceeding. Lagging lefts allow the permissive part first, letting that traffic take gaps in traffic, and waiting for the protective phase if there are no gaps. It then allows the left turn lane to clear on the protective phase after the through signal has turned red. It also means that no one is stuck in the intersection after the signal has turned red, and through traffic can start up on green much faster.
In New York, only the first car and go past the stop line into the intersection. If they can't get through, the all-red phase should allow them to get out, assuming that oncoming traffic doesn't violate the red.
In Illinois, as long as your front wheels are past the stop line on yellow, you can continue through the intersection. Hence, we can have a whole conga line of vehicles in the intersection when it turns red. I've seen as many as three in the intersection waiting, and another one or two typically follow anyway.
Quote from: Brandon on June 12, 2016, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 12, 2016, 04:32:23 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 12, 2016, 11:27:20 AM
I would have to say that my preference is for lagging over leading protective/permissive lefts. The reason being is that leading lefts left to lead to a bunch of people stuck in the intersection when the signal turns red. Cross traffic then has to wait for them to complete their left turns before proceeding. Lagging lefts allow the permissive part first, letting that traffic take gaps in traffic, and waiting for the protective phase if there are no gaps. It then allows the left turn lane to clear on the protective phase after the through signal has turned red. It also means that no one is stuck in the intersection after the signal has turned red, and through traffic can start up on green much faster.
In New York, only the first car and go past the stop line into the intersection. If they can't get through, the all-red phase should allow them to get out, assuming that oncoming traffic doesn't violate the red.
In Illinois, as long as your front wheels are past the stop line on yellow, you can continue through the intersection. Hence, we can have a whole conga line of vehicles in the intersection when it turns red. I've seen as many as three in the intersection waiting, and another one or two typically follow anyway.
It's so funny how much this behavior differs between cities. Here in Seattle, you
might have one car pull past the stop line, but that's usually it. But up and British Columbia, it's much like Illinois. As long as those front tires are past the stop line, you better get moving. Some longer intersections can pack as many as five cars in the box.
As you might imagine, I much prefer driving in British Columbia than here in Washington.
Quote from: MisterSG1I've also heard at one point that FYA is introduced because drivers don't understand what "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN" means. No offense, but if you don't know the basics in that you should make a left turn only if it is safe to do so with no oncoming traffic, you shouldn't be driving in the first place!
You left out the case where the driver is expecting a green arrow, possibly at the same time with a green ball, and the arrow fails to come up. The FYA provides a much clearer, distinctive indication for left turns and is very helpful for those traveling in areas that use left turn phasing different from what they are used to, or for signals that do not provide protected left turns for parts of the day.
You do not cite the advantage of the FYA in being able to allow left turners to turn permissive while the adjacent through lane still has a red indication - very helpful for side streets where it is possible to arrive one second too late and have to wait for the next cycle for the chance to turn.
Nor do I see mention of the case where the left turn is across a railroad track, and use of a FYA head provides a better indication that left turns are not allowed at the time - certainly more so than having a 5-section head with one or more blank-out signs.
While the FYA is a significant improvement over the older 5-section designs, the older signals still work well enough in most cases that FYA heads can be added as the signals need to be upgraded or rebuilt for other reasons.
Quote from: MisterSG1Sure, one should see that the yellow arrow is blinking, but let's be honest for a second, it is ingrained in our minds that a yellow arrow means MAKE THAT LEFT TURN RIGHT NOW.
Observing the first FYA installations in a region without them indicates this is not the case. Also, yellow balls still have issues with left turners feeling the urgent need to suddenly make their turn, and then getting creamed by an opposing driver who is trying to make it through the intersection before getting a red light.
Quote from: MisterSG1This alone also ELIMINATES the case in that arrow signals ALWAYS signify that the specific movement shown by the arrow signal has right of way.
In places where I've heard the 'arrow means go' argument against installing red arrows, there does not seem to be issues with blatant violations of the red arrows after they were installed.
Sure the FYA creates two new ambiguities - the steady yellow arrow as well as flashing yellow meaning 'yield' or 'caution' depending upon the case, but it opens up enough opportunities to be worth those two ambiguities.
I think this is the first thread where someone's issue with the FYA comes from the solid yellow arrow...
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 02:16:53 AM
By the rule book we all know what a solid yellow arrow is supposed to mean, complete the turn if in the intersection and do not start the turn if you are not in the intersection.
Ontario Ministry of Transportation, Driver's Handbook (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section3.2.2.shtml)
QuoteA yellow – or amber – light means the red light is about to appear. You must stop if you can do so safely; otherwise, go with caution.
A little bit different definitions. But the handbook makes the distinction. A solid yellow does not automatically equate to "go", despite what common practice has developed.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
And I challenge you, those who say that the FYA allows switching between PPLT and FPLT modes....while yes it would allow the left turn mode to indeed be amphibious, the question I ask, is there anywhere that actually switches between PPLT and FPLT at different points of the day?
There are multiple signals in the Las Vegas, NV area using FYA displays that switch into protected only mode during peak hour times. Las Vegas uses a lot of coordination on its arterials, so many left turns are run lead-lag to improve coordination. Simultaneously, platoons of opposing through vehicles on these arterials are typically heavy with little-to-no gaps to allow a permitted turn safely. (Many such situations are on arterials with three through lanes and speeds of 45mph or greater, which increases likelihood of no gap in peak travel times.) The protected mode only operates during peak periods, so permitted turning movements are allowed in off-peak times when it is more likely for there to be more gaps in opposing traffic.
At some signals, prior to installation of FYAs, the same effect was achieved with "Dallas Phasing" in a 5-aspect signal head (doghouse/vertical stack). This required a separate signal head anyway, with louvers on the green and yellow balls to allow permitted indications when the adjacent through vehicles had a red--I believe this also required extra signal controller programming to make it work. The FYA display achieves the same purpose, with a 4-aspect head and no additional programming required.
I'm not a big fan of the FYA either.
Whenever you have an arrow (unless it's red) it means you have the right of way to make your turn.
SO, whenever a YELLOW ARROW is up it means your right of way is ending...but you STILL have the right of way. But, with a flashing yellow arrow it means you do NOT have the right of way.
I know there are signs that go along with the FYA, but the meaning shouldn't be so "complicated" you need a sign to explain it more.
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on June 13, 2016, 07:24:38 PM
Whenever you have an arrow (unless it's red) it means you have the right of way to make your turn.
SO, whenever a YELLOW ARROW is up it means your right of way is ending...but you STILL have the right of way. But, with a flashing yellow arrow it means you do NOT have the right of way.
I know there are signs that go along with the FYA, but the meaning shouldn't be so "complicated" you need a sign to explain it more.
And this is different than the dual meanings you can get with a circular green? With a circular green (assuming no pedestrian crossings), you have the right of way if going straight or turning right, but not if you are turning left.
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on June 13, 2016, 07:24:38 PM
I'm not a big fan of the FYA either.
Whenever you have an arrow (unless it's red) it means you have the right of way to make your turn.
SO, whenever a YELLOW ARROW is up it means your right of way is ending...but you STILL have the right of way. But, with a flashing yellow arrow it means you do NOT have the right of way.
I know there are signs that go along with the FYA, but the meaning shouldn't be so "complicated" you need a sign to explain it more.
Not quite... Meanings below paraphrased from 2009 MUTCD, Section 4D.04:
Green arrow = Driver may enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow
Flashing Yellow arrow = Driver may enter the intersection to make the movement indicated by the arrow, and must yield to pedestrians or other vehicles lawfully in the intersection (and for turns to the left, must also yield to oncoming traffic)
Steady yellow arrow = Driver is warned that the associated green arrow or flashing yellow arrow movement is terminating. The rules governing vehicle movements on the phase being terminated remain active during the steady yellow arrow.
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on June 13, 2016, 07:24:38 PM
I'm not a big fan of the FYA either.
Whenever you have an arrow (unless it's red) it means you have the right of way to make your turn.
SO, whenever a YELLOW ARROW is up it means your right of way is ending...but you STILL have the right of way. But, with a flashing yellow arrow it means you do NOT have the right of way.
I know there are signs that go along with the FYA, but the meaning shouldn't be so "complicated" you need a sign to explain it more.
Bingo, that's the point I'm getting at, but one slight correction. With a solid yellow arrow when FYA exists, it means you DON'T NECESSARILY have the right of way. Before the introduction of FYA, a solid yellow always meant that a driver still has the right of way.
I do have a solution that could have done all of this and wouldn't require the retweaking of rules, I of course would need to find out how you make an animated gif to do it. To make a sequence similar to the ones shown on the link on this thread.
Just a question, when a FYA intersection uses a leading left, or leading simultaneous left sequence, does the left arrow always go back to the red arrow before the flashing yellow arrow appears? Normally in the 4/5 head signal, or doghouse, depending on how its oriented in your area, there generally isn't a dead pause of turning traffic, which I think is a great idea personally that's easy to accomplish with a FYA.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 08:39:55 AM
Just a question, when a FYA intersection uses a leading left, or leading simultaneous left sequence, does the left arrow always go back to the red arrow before the flashing yellow arrow appears? Normally in the 4/5 head signal, or doghouse, depending on how its oriented in your area, there generally isn't a dead pause of turning traffic, which I think is a great idea personally that's easy to accomplish with a FYA.
I think we've established that many jurisdictions do have the red arrow display in transitioning from protected to permitted (Nevada does, even if it is as brief as one second or less), but also that some jurisdictions omit the red arrow. According to the MUTCD, the red arrow is not required to display in this transition.
I have a bad feeling that the FYA will eventually supersede the doghouse signal, which thankfully is trying to hang on for as long as possible. FWIW, I prefer the doghouse because it gives a better idea when you can and can't turn left. For comparison purposes, these are the phases of a FYA and doghouse (LTA=Left Turn Arrow):
DOGHOUSE
Green LTA/Red ball
Yellow LTA/Red ball
No LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE DOGHOUSE
Green LTA/Green ball
Yellow LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE DOGHOUSE 2
Green LTA/Green ball
Yellow LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
FYA
Green LTA/Red ball
Steady yellow LTA/Red ball
Flashing yellow LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE FYA
Green LTA/Green ball
Flashing yellow LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE FYA 2
Green LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
Quote from: Henry on June 14, 2016, 10:37:39 AM
I have a bad feeling that the FYA will eventually supersede the doghouse signal, which thankfully is trying to hang on for as long as possible. FWIW, I prefer the doghouse because it gives a better idea when you can and can't turn left. For comparison purposes, these are the phases of a FYA and doghouse (LTA=Left Turn Arrow):
DOGHOUSE
Green LTA/Red ball
Yellow LTA/Red ball
No LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE DOGHOUSE
Green LTA/Green ball
Yellow LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE DOGHOUSE 2
Green LTA/Green ball
Yellow LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
FYA
Green LTA/Red ball
Steady yellow LTA/Red ball
Flashing yellow LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE FYA
Green LTA/Green ball
Flashing yellow LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE FYA 2
Green LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
You're missing the new possibility of "Flashing yellow LTA/Red ball", which is not possible with a doghouse signal.
How many agencies suppress the flashing yellow arrow when the adjacent through is displaying a red? This is common around here. So if leading lefts terminate non-simultaneous, you will see an extended solid red arrow until the adjacent through turns green. This setup really doesn't affect capacity since at the start of the opposing through traffic will likely be queued up preventing any permissive turns from being made anyways.
EDIT: This type of setup is only meant for leading lefts. Obviously, with lagging lefts you may need the flashing yellow arrow to be on when the adjacent through is red to prevent the yellow trap.
Quote from: Henry on June 14, 2016, 10:37:39 AM
I have a bad feeling that the FYA will eventually supersede the doghouse signal, which thankfully is trying to hang on for as long as possible. FWIW, I prefer the doghouse because it gives a better idea when you can and can't turn left. For comparison purposes, these are the phases of a FYA and doghouse (LTA=Left Turn Arrow):
DOGHOUSE
Green LTA/Red ball
Yellow LTA/Red ball
No LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE DOGHOUSE
Green LTA/Green ball
Yellow LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Green ball
No LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE DOGHOUSE 2
Green LTA/Green ball
Yellow LTA/Yellow ball
No LTA/Red ball
FYA
Green LTA/Red ball
Steady yellow LTA/Red ball
Flashing yellow LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE FYA
Green LTA/Green ball
Flashing yellow LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
ALTERNATE FYA 2
Green LTA/Green ball
Steady yellow LTA/Yellow ball
Red LTA/Red ball
Ok, the first example under "Doghouse" you gave is what we sometimes call a "leading-leading left" that is both sides get a protected left arrow while traffic for proceeding straight on either side faces a red ball. In Ontario this is known as a "simultaneous left turn" and it's the term I prefer to use, or in this case, a "leading simultaneous left turn".
The second example, "Alternative Doghouse" is what we call a "leading left", in Ontario and other parts of Canada, mostly eastern Canada I believe, this is traditionally called an "advanced green", this used to be shown in Ontario by flashing green ball lights. More on this later, it relates to the conversation.
The third example, "Alternative Doghouse 2" is usually referred to as a "split phase" when traffic going NB has the light all to themselves, while afterwards SB gets the same thing. Usually put in places where more people want to turn left instead of proceed straight. I'm not much of a fan of this kind of phasing.
There are two more that can be shown with doghouses but one can cause traffic to be yellow trapped.
Yellow Trap Doghouse (Lagging Left)
No LTA/Green Ball
Green LTA/Green Ball (oncoming traffic would face a red ball at this point)
Yellow LTA/Yellow Ball
No LTA/Red Ball
(Also this first example can be combined with the leading left to create what is known as leading-lagging left, dangerous to set up because of a yellow trap)
Lagging Simultaneous Left Turn
No LTA/Green Ball
No LTA/Yellow Ball
No LTA/Red Ball
Green LTA/Red Ball
Yellow LTA/Red Ball
Of course there are such variations to the first two example you provided, where a green ball may appear while a green arrow is there on a leading simultaneous left (essentially allowing one side to jump the gun) opposing traffic in this scenario would have no LTA and be on a red ball.
The FYA allows the lagging left phase as well as a leading-lagging phase to be set up safely, but the issue I have is with how it changes our definitions of the arrows.
So here is my solutionPicture a doghouse signal (or a 4-head signal with a bimodal arrow which we use here) or however this kind of phase is oriented on the signals in your area.
Take the green ball out, and replace it with a FLASHING YELLOW BALL.
Affix what you show to determine when a signal is a fully protected left, such as the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign, or the "lane turns left" sign (you know what I mean, what you see to show which lane goes which direction). Attach this next to the light, and voila you have done it without having ambiguous solid yellow arrows and puzzling flashing yellow arrows.
As for the flashing yellow ball, in Michigan they used to display a flashing red ball during phases of left turns in lights in that state for years, and that did not cause much of a problem.
This way all the traffic rules remain the same, and you have all the benefits of the FYA.
Even if the FYA replace the doghouses which I think is the master plan, consider that the typical "doghouse" signal didn't appear with all the common phases in Ontario until the late 80s/early 90s, instead we used to have an "Advanced Green" where the green ball flashes, this means that opposing traffic faces a red, and the intersection is fully protected from pedestrians as well (essentially it covers a right green arrow too), but of course, drivers from other places were not sure on to what a flashing green meant and well, it was thankfully phased out as you can do a lot more flexible signal phases with the doghouse.
It will take at least 30 years for the traditional doghouse to disappear entirely, i mean it's been over 25 years since the flashing greens were phased out of Ontario, and well this is a video of one I discovered that still runs in the GTA to this day.
My alternative to the FYA eliminates the issues involving the non right of way yellow arrow, I think this is what they should have went for.
Filmed this yesterday...my approach to this 5-section signal was skipped because I didn't arrive fast enough...a flashing yellow arrow disregards arrival times, defaulting straight to the flashing mode (unless it's one of those weird jurisdictions that synchronizes the FYA with the through signals -- not the case here). If this turn was a flashing yellow arrow, I could have proceeded, but because cross-traffic arrived first, it received the next green.
https://youtu.be/YA30kMB06cA
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 02:04:11 PM
Take the green ball out, and replace it with a FLASHING YELLOW BALL.
So now this indication now gets some ambiguity, changing from 'proceed with caution' to 'yield'
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 02:04:11 PMAffix what you show to determine when a signal is a fully protected left, such as the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign, or the "lane turns left" sign (you know what I mean, what you see to show which lane goes which direction). Attach this next to the light, and voila you have done it without having ambiguous solid yellow arrows and puzzling flashing yellow arrows.
And with the latter sign you have now violated the MUTCD in the US.
[quote author=MisterSG1 link=topic=18124.msg2151574#msg2151574 date=1465927451As for the flashing yellow ball, in Michigan they used to display a flashing red ball during phases of left turns in lights in that state for years, and that did not cause much of a problem.[/quote]
When used in Michigan, the flashing red ball kept it's general mean of 'stop, turn when safe to do so' and did not have any ambiguities of its own introduced.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2016, 03:17:57 PM
(unless it's one of those weird jurisdictions that synchronizes the FYA with the through signals -- not the case here).
What you consider "˜weird' is standard practice in other parts of the country. Maybe you are just an intolerant individual.
Quote from: tradephoric on June 14, 2016, 05:53:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2016, 03:17:57 PM
(unless it's one of those weird jurisdictions that synchronizes the FYA with the through signals -- not the case here).
What you consider "˜weird' is standard practice in other parts of the country. Maybe you are just an intolerant individual.
:confused:
I think it's weird because it defeats one of the major advantages of the FYA (independent operation of the left turn signal from the through signals). Surely my logic is at least somewhat sound.
Quote from: tradephoric on June 14, 2016, 10:46:31 AM
How many agencies suppress the flashing yellow arrow when the adjacent through is displaying a red? This is common around here. So if leading lefts terminate non-simultaneous, you will see an extended solid red arrow until the adjacent through turns green. This setup really doesn't affect capacity since at the start of the opposing through traffic will likely be queued up preventing any permissive turns from being made anyways.
Is there any advantage to suppressing the FYA until the adjacent through comes on though?
One benefit of FYA is tying into the opposing through green by default. I feel like holding the FYA until adjacent through green comes on takes extra programming that isn't necessary (unless it's somehow tied to a phase overlap)...
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 02:04:11 PM
So here is my solution
Picture a doghouse signal (or a 4-head signal with a bimodal arrow which we use here) or however this kind of phase is oriented on the signals in your area.
Take the green ball out, and replace it with a FLASHING YELLOW BALL.
Affix what you show to determine when a signal is a fully protected left, such as the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign, or the "lane turns left" sign (you know what I mean, what you see to show which lane goes which direction). Attach this next to the light, and voila you have done it without having ambiguous solid yellow arrows and puzzling flashing yellow arrows.
As for the flashing yellow ball, in Michigan they used to display a flashing red ball during phases of left turns in lights in that state for years, and that did not cause much of a problem.
This way all the traffic rules remain the same, and you have all the benefits of the FYA.
...
My alternative to the FYA eliminates the issues involving the non right of way yellow arrow, I think this is what they should have went for.
Your solution has some other issues though:
Part of the beauty of an FYA display is that you can have all arrow indications to control turning movements, which needs fewer signs next to signal heads. Using a flashing yellow ball for the permissive movement, with adjacent through green balls, introduces other ambiguities. For your idea, you now HAVE TO use a sign with the left turn display, or use louvers over the flashing circular yellow and normal circular yellow, to avoid confusion between a circular indication for left turns versus another circular indication for adjacent through traffic.
Again, the steady yellow indication previously never assigned a right of way. The yellow was an indication that the prior signal phase that allowed a permitted or protected movement is transitioning from green to red. That's it. The only change now is it indicates a transition from green/flashing yellow to red.
Quote from: Henry on June 14, 2016, 10:37:39 AM
I have a bad feeling that the FYA will eventually supersede the doghouse signal, which thankfully is trying to hang on for as long as possible. FWIW, I prefer the doghouse because it gives a better idea when you can and can't turn left.
All arrow displays for turn lanes will supersede the doghouses for any situation where the left turn has an exclusive signal face (turn lane has its own signal), because the MUTCD now prohibits circular ball indications over dedicated turn lanes. Doghouses are still okay for shared signal faces, where the doghouse is located on the lane line separating a turn lane from a through lane.
I don't see how a doghouse gives you any better idea of when you can/can't turn left than an FYA signal does. It just uses different indications to do it.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 02:04:11 PM
Yellow Trap Doghouse (Lagging Left)
No LTA/Green Ball
Green LTA/Green Ball (oncoming traffic would face a red ball at this point)
Yellow LTA/Yellow Ball
No LTA/Red Ball
(Also this first example can be combined with the leading left to create what is known as leading-lagging left, dangerous to set up because of a yellow trap)
In general, a lagging left does lead to yellow trap, but lagging lefts will not lead to yellow traps when the opposing left is somehow restricted.
- If the opposing left (and u-turn) is prohibited, a permissive lagging left will not lead to yellow trap. We see this commonly at T-intersections (there is no street for opposing traffic to turn into). And at one-way streets (opposing left prohibited from turning into one-way traffic).*
- If the opposing left is protected only, a permissive lagging left will not lead to yellow trap. Often where the left turn is much heavier than the opposing left turn, the signals are set up this way to give the more dominant left turn the permissive indication. So you will see a protected-only lead left turn combined with a protected/permissive lagging left turn for the heavier turn movement. Of course the down side is that people making the minor movement will have to wait for that green arrow.
As Brandon had said earlier:
QuoteLagging lefts allow the permissive part first, letting that traffic take gaps in traffic, and waiting for the protective phase if there are no gaps. It then allows the left turn lane to clear on the protective phase after the through signal has turned red. It also means that no one is stuck in the intersection after the signal has turned red, and through traffic can start up on green much faster.
Since the lagging left is operationally superior, if it can be set up in such a way as to avoid the yellow trap it should be done.
Many lagging lefts use a 4-signal display: R Y G GA. No need for YA when it is shown at the exact same time as a green.
* Many arterials in the outer boroughs of NYC do this extensively as most minor streets are one-way. Here is a stretch of Northern Blvd with a lagging left at every signal, even at minor streets:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7570836,-73.8703917,3a,75y,277.4h,74.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIaG1KhQM4Y5n4occoShj6w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1
[The most current signal has 5 heads, but look at previous years, only 4 heads were used.]
Quote from: mrsman on June 15, 2016, 02:19:21 PM
- If the opposing left is protected only, a permissive lagging left will not lead to yellow trap. Often where the left turn is much heavier than the opposing left turn, the signals are set up this way to give the more dominant left turn the permissive indication. So you will see a protected-only lead left turn combined with a protected/permissive lagging left turn for the heavier turn movement. Of course the down side is that people making the minor movement will have to wait for that green arrow.
Situations like this are generally avoided in Washington State. Opposing movements,
generally, use the same setups. I can't remember what the reasoning is, but I would imagine it's to prevent driver confusion ("if they can go why can't I?"). This is most often observed when there are dual turn lanes opposite a single left turn lane (both will use protected-only).
Quick question about Dallas phasing, when getting the protected arrow, did the green ball illuminate simultaneously just like on a regular 5stack?
Quote from: roadfro on June 14, 2016, 08:40:25 PM
All arrow displays for turn lanes will supersede the doghouses for any situation where the left turn has an exclusive signal face (turn lane has its own signal), because the MUTCD now prohibits circular ball indications over dedicated turn lanes. Doghouses are still okay for shared signal faces, where the doghouse is located on the lane line separating a turn lane from a through lane.
Technically doghouses and towers can still be used in front of left turn lanes since the statement on not putting circular greens left of the edge of a left turn lane is only a "should" statement:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCD Section 4D.13Guidance:
09 For new or reconstructed signal installations, on an approach with an exclusive turn lane(s) for a left-turn (or U-turn to the left) movement and with opposing vehicular traffic, signal faces that display a CIRCULAR GREEN signal indication should not be post-mounted on the far-side median or mounted overhead above the exclusive turn lane(s) or the extension of the lane(s).
It is when the left turn is controlled separately (such as having to remain red while the adjacent through movement gets a green) that a doghouse or tower is prohibited - see 4D.17 Paragraph 10 Item B, Paragraph 4D.18 Paragraph 02, and 4D.20 Paragraph 02 in the MUTCD.
Quote from: roadfro on June 14, 2016, 08:40:25 PMI don't see how a doghouse gives you any better idea of when you can/can't turn left than an FYA signal does. It just uses different indications to do it.
A traditional doghouse or tower is much less clear than a FYA head on when left turns are allowed since it has two different indications active at the same time during the protected part of the phase - a red ball and a green arrow - while a FYA head only has a green arrow displayed during the protected mode. I'm pretty sure this is documented in some of the research on using FYA displays.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 15, 2016, 04:16:25 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 15, 2016, 02:19:21 PM
- If the opposing left is protected only, a permissive lagging left will not lead to yellow trap. Often where the left turn is much heavier than the opposing left turn, the signals are set up this way to give the more dominant left turn the permissive indication. So you will see a protected-only lead left turn combined with a protected/permissive lagging left turn for the heavier turn movement. Of course the down side is that people making the minor movement will have to wait for that green arrow.
Situations like this are generally avoided in Washington State. Opposing movements, generally, use the same setups. I can't remember what the reasoning is, but I would imagine it's to prevent driver confusion ("if they can go why can't I?"). This is most often observed when there are dual turn lanes opposite a single left turn lane (both will use protected-only).
IMO, when there are multiple left turn lanes, I am more inclined to only allow the left turns at different time periods. In many cases, if I am in the inside turn lane and needing to turn wide onto the other street, I am worried about the inside lane left turner who is opposing me. If the green arrows are on simultaneously, we can be close to crossing paths. In a jurisdiction with protected only for multiple left turn lanes, this is a good candidate for lead-lag operation
I will address a bunch of people over several posts, as I have some catching up to do.
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 14, 2016, 05:31:54 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 02:04:11 PM
Take the green ball out, and replace it with a FLASHING YELLOW BALL.
So now this indication now gets some ambiguity, changing from 'proceed with caution' to 'yield'
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 02:04:11 PMAffix what you show to determine when a signal is a fully protected left, such as the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign, or the "lane turns left" sign (you know what I mean, what you see to show which lane goes which direction). Attach this next to the light, and voila you have done it without having ambiguous solid yellow arrows and puzzling flashing yellow arrows.
And with the latter sign you have now violated the MUTCD in the US.
[quote author=MisterSG1 link=topic=18124.msg2151574#msg2151574 date=1465927451As for the flashing yellow ball, in Michigan they used to display a flashing red ball during phases of left turns in lights in that state for years, and that did not cause much of a problem.
When used in Michigan, the flashing red ball kept it's general mean of 'stop, turn when safe to do so' and did not have any ambiguities of its own introduced.
[/quote]
The way how I deduced what the FYA meant was from the flashing yellow ball. Obviously, if we had a FRA, that would mean the exact same thing of what used to be the standard in Michigan.
As for the flashing yellow ball and proceed with caution, try to imagine this, you are turning left at an intersection that has a flashing yellow ball, either on a beacon or at an intersection after hours, obviously, you cannot make this left turn unless you yield the right of way. So in essence, the flashing yellow ball means exactly that if it were applied to a left turn signal.
In Ontario and some other Canadian provinces as I posted earlier, we used to have a flashing green ball as the standard at some traffic signals, if you apply the logic regarding the flashing red ball and flashing yellow ball, thus the flashing green ball would show that you indeed have right of way, and can indeed make the left turn WITHOUT yielding the right of way.
Quote from: roadfro on June 12, 2016, 08:39:00 PM
I think this is the first thread where someone's issue with the FYA comes from the solid yellow arrow...
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 02:16:53 AM
By the rule book we all know what a solid yellow arrow is supposed to mean, complete the turn if in the intersection and do not start the turn if you are not in the intersection.
Ontario Ministry of Transportation, Driver's Handbook (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section3.2.2.shtml)
QuoteA yellow – or amber – light means the red light is about to appear. You must stop if you can do so safely; otherwise, go with caution.
A little bit different definitions. But the handbook makes the distinction. A solid yellow does not automatically equate to "go", despite what common practice has developed.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 12, 2016, 11:17:13 AM
And I challenge you, those who say that the FYA allows switching between PPLT and FPLT modes....while yes it would allow the left turn mode to indeed be amphibious, the question I ask, is there anywhere that actually switches between PPLT and FPLT at different points of the day?
There are multiple signals in the Las Vegas, NV area using FYA displays that switch into protected only mode during peak hour times. Las Vegas uses a lot of coordination on its arterials, so many left turns are run lead-lag to improve coordination. Simultaneously, platoons of opposing through vehicles on these arterials are typically heavy with little-to-no gaps to allow a permitted turn safely. (Many such situations are on arterials with three through lanes and speeds of 45mph or greater, which increases likelihood of no gap in peak travel times.) The protected mode only operates during peak periods, so permitted turning movements are allowed in off-peak times when it is more likely for there to be more gaps in opposing traffic.
At some signals, prior to installation of FYAs, the same effect was achieved with "Dallas Phasing" in a 5-aspect signal head (doghouse/vertical stack). This required a separate signal head anyway, with louvers on the green and yellow balls to allow permitted indications when the adjacent through vehicles had a red--I believe this also required extra signal controller programming to make it work. The FYA display achieves the same purpose, with a 4-aspect head and no additional programming required.
Ok, here's the link to the MTO on the yellow arrow, which appears under simultaneous left turn:
Ontario Ministry of Transportation, Driver's Handbook (http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/handbook/section3.2.6.shtml)
QuoteAfter the left-turn green arrow, a yellow arrow may appear. This means the green light is about to appear for traffic in one or both directions. Do not start your left turn. Stop if you can do so safely; otherwise, complete your turn with caution.
"Complete your turn with caution", this would have to be revamped slightly if FYA ever does find its way here. It would have to become complete your turn with caution and (possibly) yield to oncoming traffic.
The issue is more or less driver behavior, while a lot of drivers seem to understand that a yellow ball is moreso an extension of the red, this is definitely not true when drivers see a yellow arrow. Drivers here in the GTA will not stop turning until the arrow disappears completely. This is the whole issue why I made this topic.
So what is described here in the definition of a yellow left arrow in Ontario in the handbook, it is NEVER and I mean never seen out on the roads. If you were to stop on a yellow arrow, prepare to hear some horns honking behind you!
Quote from: roadfro on June 14, 2016, 08:37:10 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 14, 2016, 02:04:11 PM
So here is my solution
Picture a doghouse signal (or a 4-head signal with a bimodal arrow which we use here) or however this kind of phase is oriented on the signals in your area.
Take the green ball out, and replace it with a FLASHING YELLOW BALL.
Affix what you show to determine when a signal is a fully protected left, such as the "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" sign, or the "lane turns left" sign (you know what I mean, what you see to show which lane goes which direction). Attach this next to the light, and voila you have done it without having ambiguous solid yellow arrows and puzzling flashing yellow arrows.
As for the flashing yellow ball, in Michigan they used to display a flashing red ball during phases of left turns in lights in that state for years, and that did not cause much of a problem.
This way all the traffic rules remain the same, and you have all the benefits of the FYA.
...
My alternative to the FYA eliminates the issues involving the non right of way yellow arrow, I think this is what they should have went for.
Your solution has some other issues though:
Part of the beauty of an FYA display is that you can have all arrow indications to control turning movements, which needs fewer signs next to signal heads. Using a flashing yellow ball for the permissive movement, with adjacent through green balls, introduces other ambiguities. For your idea, you now HAVE TO use a sign with the left turn display, or use louvers over the flashing circular yellow and normal circular yellow, to avoid confusion between a circular indication for left turns versus another circular indication for adjacent through traffic.
Again, the steady yellow indication previously never assigned a right of way. The yellow was an indication that the prior signal phase that allowed a permitted or protected movement is transitioning from green to red. That's it. The only change now is it indicates a transition from green/flashing yellow to red.
Yes, you may HAVE to use a sign, but what is the issue with that. Didn't these appear everywhere where FYA were installed?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flagniappemobile.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F01%2Fleft-turn-yield-sign.jpg&hash=63bf88d94cf865102c78fb098cda6e43b32d0525)
Such signs don't cause problems, I mean even in downtown Toronto which prides itself as a huge multicultural city, you have 4 different types of lights now at one intersection on the newly redesigned Queen's Quay, and well they don't seem to cause problems as to what they mean, even if it means placing a sign next to each signal:
(https://ontariotrafficman.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/qqfirewb.jpg)
Quote from: mrsman on June 15, 2016, 02:19:21 PM
As Brandon had said earlier:
QuoteLagging lefts allow the permissive part first, letting that traffic take gaps in traffic, and waiting for the protective phase if there are no gaps. It then allows the left turn lane to clear on the protective phase after the through signal has turned red. It also means that no one is stuck in the intersection after the signal has turned red, and through traffic can start up on green much faster.
Since the lagging left is operationally superior, if it can be set up in such a way as to avoid the yellow trap it should be done.
Many lagging lefts use a 4-signal display: R Y G GA. No need for YA when it is shown at the exact same time as a green.
* Many arterials in the outer boroughs of NYC do this extensively as most minor streets are one-way. Here is a stretch of Northern Blvd with a lagging left at every signal, even at minor streets:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7570836,-73.8703917,3a,75y,277.4h,74.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIaG1KhQM4Y5n4occoShj6w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1!6m1!1e1
[The most current signal has 5 heads, but look at previous years, only 4 heads were used.]
But is the lagging left superior? I could see benefits in the lagging simultaneous left turn, which we oddly don't use here but wouldn't require any FYAs to set up (unless you wanted one to start prematurely, like how leading simultaneous lefts end prematurely for one side)
But as for the lagging "advanced green" as I call it, that is green ball with green arrow, the exact same issue that Brandon quotes does in fact happen in that scenario. One side will face a FYA, the other side will have a green ball and green arrow. Traffic sitting in the left turn lane (on the side facing the FYA) like they normally do in any permissive turn will keep turning until the very last possible second even after the light becomes yellow. This causes vehicles to be completing turns in the all-red phase and even when the cross traffic begins its sequence. As oncoming traffic will have drivers who run reds, and people making the turn rightfully will have to be very cautious and turn only if they know for certain a vehicle is stopping.
I can see all this being avoided with lagging simultaneous lefts, which doesn't require FYAs to be set up and can be done with doghouses.
It's also of course worth mentioning that with any lagging turn movement, you have the potential to overload the left turn lane into the lanes that proceed straight, causing a backup on the road. As the protected phase only happens until traffic proceeding straight turns red for at least one side.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 16, 2016, 07:29:50 AM
Yes, you may HAVE to use a sign, but what is the issue with that. Didn't these appear everywhere where FYA were installed?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flagniappemobile.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F01%2Fleft-turn-yield-sign.jpg&hash=63bf88d94cf865102c78fb098cda6e43b32d0525)
That sign is not MUTCD compliant in the US since the yellow arrow on black ball symbol has not been approved, although that has not stopped it nor some variants with the yellow arrow being dashed from popping up. There have been a few new FYA heads in Wisconsin and Nebraska that have been installed without the supplemental sign.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 16, 2016, 07:29:50 AMSuch signs don't cause problems, I mean even in downtown Toronto which prides itself as a huge multicultural city, you have 4 different types of lights now at one intersection on the newly redesigned Queen's Quay, and well they don't seem to cause problems as to what they mean, even if it means placing a sign next to each signal:
(https://ontariotrafficman.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/qqfirewb.jpg)
Relying on a sign can become an issue if the sign should be blown or knocked off the mast arm while the signal head needing the sign remains intact, creating confusion when a motorist sees two different colored circular indications at the same time.
As for the above photo, I see that intersection also having problems with the signal heads being poorly located (the left turn heads are too far to the left) and issues with overloading the driver, who has to find which signal head applies to him, then see what signs go with the signal head. The driver is probably already trying to find street signs for navigation and watching for disobedient pedestrians, and does not need to be distracted further with having to read additional signs.
But does the intersection actually have issues, or are we making a bunch of assumptions based on a single photo that 100% of the drivers using the intersection don't have?
It probably works fine for there, and I imagine if one was actually driving on the street you'd have a better context. Signal heads are poorly located though.
However, it seems like some turn arrows and white indication transit signals could reduce potential confusion and sign clutter...
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 16, 2016, 07:29:50 AM
Yes, you may HAVE to use a sign, but what is the issue with that. Didn't these appear everywhere where FYA were installed?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flagniappemobile.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F01%2Fleft-turn-yield-sign.jpg&hash=63bf88d94cf865102c78fb098cda6e43b32d0525)
In Florida I'd say most PPLT don't have signs... whether they use a FYA or doghouse.
Quote from: roadfro on June 19, 2016, 03:12:22 PM
It probably works fine for there, and I imagine if one was actually driving on the street you'd have a better context. Signal heads are poorly located though.
However, it seems like some turn arrows and white indication transit signals could reduce potential confusion and sign clutter...
I believe the reason for the location of the protected only left turn signal heads is because that's where they were located before prior to the massive reconstruction that led to the road diet.
Before Queen's Quay had two carriageways with the streetcar tracks in the middle, as you can see, the south side of Queen's Quay is now a bicycle path, which has now moved all traffic to what was originally the westbound carriageway.
The streetcar and road were closed for several years due to this reconstruction.
As for left arrows, that's kind of hard when the Ontario Traffic Manual to my knowledge only allows us to use an arrow for the green light, yellow and red must be balls. So there would have to be some rewriting to the laws to accomodate that.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 21, 2016, 07:21:55 AM
As for left arrows, that's kind of hard when the Ontario Traffic Manual to my knowledge only allows us to use an arrow for the green light, yellow and red must be balls. So there would have to be some rewriting to the laws to accomodate that.
I think it's interesting that Canada and the US often share traffic control innovations, yet the concept of the red or yellow arrow has lagged behind for some time and needs legal changes to implement. (Although, the same could be said for some US states, which have only recently begun phasing in red arrows despite red arrows being a thing for 40+ years.)
I think that the overall problem lies with how complicated we've made it to signal left turns these days. In the old days, if you needed a protected phase to do a left turn at an intersection, you just added a green arrow head to a standard 3-ball light. During the protected turn, the arrow was on, when the turn was permissive but not protected, the arrow was off (just the green ball), and the driver was EXPECTED to know that and make sure traffic was clear before making the left turn.
Left turn signals, red arrows/yellow arrows/FYAs have just added a layer of complexity, that and the "overuse" of them at intersections that don't necessarily require them.
Quote from: doogie1303 on June 25, 2016, 09:02:34 AM
I think that the overall problem lies with how complicated we've made it to signal left turns these days. In the old days, if you needed a protected phase to do a left turn at an intersection, you just added a green arrow head to a standard 3-ball light. During the protected turn, the arrow was on, when the turn was permissive but not protected, the arrow was off (just the green ball), and the driver was EXPECTED to know that and make sure traffic was clear before making the left turn.
Left turn signals, red arrows/yellow arrows/FYAs have just added a layer of complexity, that and the "overuse" of them at intersections that don't necessarily require them.
+Infinity.
Quote from: doogie1303 on June 25, 2016, 09:02:34 AM
In the old days, if you needed a protected phase to do a left turn at an intersection, you just added a green arrow head to a standard 3-ball light. During the protected turn, the arrow was on, when the turn was permissive but not protected, the arrow was off (just the green ball), and the driver was EXPECTED to know that and make sure traffic was clear before making the left turn.
So, like a bi-modal green/yellow arrow? Or just a green arrow that randomly expired?
Quote from: jakeroot on June 25, 2016, 12:29:34 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on June 25, 2016, 09:02:34 AM
In the old days, if you needed a protected phase to do a left turn at an intersection, you just added a green arrow head to a standard 3-ball light. During the protected turn, the arrow was on, when the turn was permissive but not protected, the arrow was off (just the green ball), and the driver was EXPECTED to know that and make sure traffic was clear before making the left turn.
So, like a bi-modal green/yellow arrow? Or just a green arrow that randomly expired?
In my early days growing up the GTA, I do recall seeing such arrows that used to just be green, and then disappear....and the old flashing green balls I've spoken about, that also has the exact same problem as it becomes a solid green at random.
Quote from: roadfro on June 22, 2016, 11:15:07 AM
I think it's interesting that Canada and the US often share traffic control innovations, yet the concept of the red or yellow arrow has lagged behind for some time and needs legal changes to implement. (Although, the same could be said for some US states, which have only recently begun phasing in red arrows despite red arrows being a thing for 40+ years.)
They were reluctant in adopting the basic conventions of the doghouse in Ontario for the longest time because by law (as far as I know anyways), arrow signals meant something VERY specific. To this day in Ontario, if there's an intersection where you can only make one legal movement during the green phase, the light will show an arrow for that direction. For instance, the intersection of Yonge/Dundas in downtown Toronto has fully prohibited left and right turns, so the green phases show an arrow pointing upwards instead of a green ball as proceeding straight is the only move you can make. Here is Yonge & Dundas below showing the green arrow:
https://goo.gl/maps/hziLmx7SwfK2 (https://goo.gl/maps/hziLmx7SwfK2)
Similarly, in the GSV image of the 401 WB offramp at Hwy 25 BELOW, as you can only turn left at this intersection, thus during the green phase it shows a left green arrow, yellow and red are shown by ball signals though:
https://goo.gl/maps/Md6uDZ85Ad62 (https://goo.gl/maps/Md6uDZ85Ad62)
*edit*
BUT ONE VERY IMPORTANT THING, whenever arrow signals are used, this means that the driver facing this arrow is ALSO protected from pedestrians during this phase, so what I said earlier isn't 100% true, take for instance the intersection of Victoria/Adelaide downtown, traffic facing SB on Victoria must turn WB on Adelaide, yet they face a four headed signal with a bimodal arrow.....the arrow is only used when fully protected from pedestrians, here's the intersection below:
https://goo.gl/maps/Ego7AWYgJvn (https://goo.gl/maps/Ego7AWYgJvn)
I know I am going off on a tangent, but the reluctance to accept the doghouse equivalent signal in part was due to being able to make movements other than what the arrow movement is showing.
This is why Ontario allowed what we call the simultaneous left turn, that is RED BALL with GREEN ARROW was because it fit in with the rules regarding arrows being the move you must make.
Until sometime in the late 1980s, the movement that can be described in a doghouse with a GREEN BALL and GREEN ARROW was shown instead with a FLASHING GREEN BALL, telling the drivers facing that light that their side was protected completely against oncoming traffic while the green ball flashed. The reasoning behind this is that it creates a conflict as to what the arrow signal meant before, consider with a green ball and green arrow that now one could choose to drive straight or turn left. Of course after they decided to adapt the conventions of the doghouse signal, flashing green balls still existed......some green balls still flashed in the heart of downtown Toronto well into the late 2000s before finally being replaced with a four headed signal with bimodal arrow.
And to this day, only in the permissive four headed signal, will one encounter a yellow arrow here in Ontario. Any kind of protected only signal will show a yellow ball and red ball.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 25, 2016, 12:29:34 PM
So, like a bi-modal green/yellow arrow? Or just a green arrow that randomly expired?
Before it was upgraded, there used to be a sensorless, timed light at 103rd and Western in Chicago. It would show a red ball with a green arrow for protected lefts, then the green arrow would disappear and the light would go back to red. After a pause of about 2-3 seconds, the through lights would turn green. Lights were timed equally for opposing directions. They were four section lights and there was no yellow arrow or bimodal. The pause time was a substitute for the yellow arrow. The whole installation was replaced sometime between 1999 and 2007, and it's now a standard installation with the usual 5 section lights seen throughout Chicago. Whether or not the yellow arrow was beneficial at this particular intersection is debatable.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 25, 2016, 12:29:34 PM
So, like a bi-modal green/yellow arrow? Or just a green arrow that randomly expired?
I'm talking "old" days, no bi-modal arrows. There was just a green arrow that extinguished, granted a pause was left in before oncoming traffic was changed to green to allow for the intersection to clear. Eventually the bi-modal arrow was added to give drivers more of a indication when the protected phase was ending.
I'm trying to remember when I saw the first bi-modal arrow, the old fiber optic ones ... I think it was like in the early 80's.
The point raised in the OP is an interesting one although one that strikes me as minor compared to another ambiguity that FYA creates: inconsistent meaning of flashing lights.
A flashing yellow arrow means yield. A flashing yellow ball does not, it simply means caution.
Of course, left turning traffic always has to yield unless it has a green arrow, so one could argue that the yield directive is implicit and the flashing yellow arrow itself merely means caution the same as the ball.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 25, 2016, 01:21:19 PM
Until sometime in the late 1980s, the movement that can be described in a doghouse with a GREEN BALL and GREEN ARROW was shown instead with a FLASHING GREEN BALL, telling the drivers facing that light that their side was protected completely against oncoming traffic while the green ball flashed. The reasoning behind this is that it creates a conflict as to what the arrow signal meant before, consider with a green ball and green arrow that now one could choose to drive straight or turn left. Of course after they decided to adapt the conventions of the doghouse signal, flashing green balls still existed......some green balls still flashed in the heart of downtown Toronto well into the late 2000s before finally being replaced with a four headed signal with bimodal arrow.
As of 2015, there is still a flashing green ball in Thornbury on Highway 26 (it certainly looks weird in the picture) :)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F14GkoLd.png&hash=4acd0c26973bf61691a794a6c23da8569afe64b2)
https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.5617601,-80.4527419,3a,30y,293.8h,93.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sODdM6w84KafyXR59QSBBYA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@44.5617601,-80.4527419,3a,30y,293.8h,93.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sODdM6w84KafyXR59QSBBYA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 16, 2016, 07:29:50 AM
Such signs don't cause problems, I mean even in downtown Toronto which prides itself as a huge multicultural city, you have 4 different types of lights now at one intersection on the newly redesigned Queen's Quay, and well they don't seem to cause problems as to what they mean, even if it means placing a sign next to each signal:
(https://ontariotrafficman.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/qqfirewb.jpg)
For the above picture; the two signals on the left "for left turns", why don't they have all three bulbs use arrows, that way the "Left Turn Signal" signs wouldn't be needed? I think it would be less confusing too.
I'm glad I read this thread before encountering the FYA in my travels. It would have freaked me out, not knowing what it meant :-D
Quote from: Duke87 on July 06, 2016, 10:18:32 PM
The point raised in the OP is an interesting one although one that strikes me as minor compared to another ambiguity that FYA creates: inconsistent meaning of flashing lights.
A flashing yellow arrow means yield. A flashing yellow ball does not, it simply means caution.
Of course, left turning traffic always has to yield unless it has a green arrow, so one could argue that the yield directive is implicit and the flashing yellow arrow itself merely means caution the same as the ball.
I'm not sure if I follow you, my interpretation as to what the flashing yellow arrow meant when I first heard of it, I assumed it meant "make a left turn only if safe to do so", I've asked other people who I know who have drove for years and were unaware of the FYA and they thought it meant the same thing as I thought. The FYA is based on the meaning of the flashing yellow ball.
As I have stated before, when I first seen the flashing red ball left signals in Michigan years ago, I easily deduced what they mean, and this was back when I was 13 years old:
Obviously, you must stop in the left turn lane, and can only make the left turn if safe to do so. If instead there was a flashing yellow ball, I'm sure most could figure that out to mean the same thing except it didn't require the driver to stop. Indeed, if one were to make a left turn on a flashing yellow ball hanging by itself in the boonies, they of course have to yield.
I've always understood the flashing yellow ball to mean "proceed if safe to do so", rather than proceed, as so many think is the case. Similarly, one can only make a left turn if it is safe to do so, so there is no ambiguity on the meaning of the flashing yellow.
Indeed, the FYA loses the sacred meaning of an arrow signal, which I've stated many times on this thread before, Arrow was very synonymous of meaning "right of way" but this is lost, especially with the solid yellow arrow problem I've been discussing. I offered a solution that allows us to keep the FYA-esque signal but keep the meaning of arrows intact which I posted earlier in this thread.
As for the flashing green, I'm not sure if the MUTCD defines it, but I would understand that as meaning the right of way favors all movements who face the flashing green. Indeed, this is precisely what the flashing green ball phase meant in intersections in several Canadian provinces. I would assume although it was never seen, that if a flashing green ball appeared as a beacon blinking by itself in the boonies, then it would mean that all of my movements have the right of way.....oncoming traffic would thus face a flashing red ball as would the other two directions. But again this is a fictional scenario that was never used.
Quote from: 7/8 on July 11, 2016, 07:57:16 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on June 16, 2016, 07:29:50 AM
Such signs don't cause problems, I mean even in downtown Toronto which prides itself as a huge multicultural city, you have 4 different types of lights now at one intersection on the newly redesigned Queen's Quay, and well they don't seem to cause problems as to what they mean, even if it means placing a sign next to each signal:
(https://ontariotrafficman.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/qqfirewb.jpg)
For the above picture; the two signals on the left "for left turns", why don't they have all three bulbs use arrows, that way the "Left Turn Signal" signs wouldn't be needed? I think it would be less confusing too.
I'm glad I read this thread before encountering the FYA in my travels. It would have freaked me out, not knowing what it meant :-D
The reason they don't use a red left arrow and yellow left arrow is because by Ontario law, only the green signal is allowed to have an arrow.
Yes, I understand that we have yellow arrows for protected-permissive signals, but if a light is solely dedicated to a specific movement, only green can have the arrow.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 11, 2016, 10:16:24 PM
As for the flashing green, I'm not sure if the MUTCD defines it, but I would understand that as meaning the right of way favors all movements who face the flashing green. Indeed, this is precisely what the flashing green ball phase meant in intersections in several Canadian provinces. I would assume although it was never seen, that if a flashing green ball appeared as a beacon blinking by itself in the boonies, then it would mean that all of my movements have the right of way.....oncoming traffic would thus face a flashing red ball as would the other two directions. But again this is a fictional scenario that was never used.
It's worth noting that our neighbor to the south makes wide use of the flashing green ball, and it means something quite different from what you would apparently assume. In Mexico, a flashing green ball (and flashing green left arrow, where those are used) means your right of way is about to end, i.e. the light will soon change to yellow. I think it would be bad business for the U.S. to consider using a flashing green at all, when in our neighboring nations it means such different things.
The Mexican meaning seems more natural to me:
Flashing red = Stop
Flashing yellow = Give way if needed
Flashing green = Prepare to yield/stop
Less natural to me is this progression:
Flashing red = Stop
Flashing yellow = Give way if needed
Flashing green = You have right of way
Quote from: kphoger on July 11, 2016, 10:29:49 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 11, 2016, 10:16:24 PM
As for the flashing green, I'm not sure if the MUTCD defines it, but I would understand that as meaning the right of way favors all movements who face the flashing green. Indeed, this is precisely what the flashing green ball phase meant in intersections in several Canadian provinces. I would assume although it was never seen, that if a flashing green ball appeared as a beacon blinking by itself in the boonies, then it would mean that all of my movements have the right of way.....oncoming traffic would thus face a flashing red ball as would the other two directions. But again this is a fictional scenario that was never used.
It's worth noting that our neighbor to the south makes wide use of the flashing green ball, and it means something quite different from what you would apparently assume. In Mexico, a flashing green ball (and flashing green left arrow, where those are used) means your right of way is about to end, i.e. the light will soon change to yellow. I think it would be bad business for the U.S. to consider using a flashing green at all, when in our neighboring nations it means such different things.
The Mexican meaning seems more natural to me:
Flashing red = Stop
Flashing yellow = Give way if needed
Flashing green = Prepare to yield/stop
Less natural to me is this progression:
Flashing red = Stop
Flashing yellow = Give way if needed
Flashing green = You have right of way
And the real kicker to all of this, even in different parts of Canada, a flashing green ball means something totally different. In BC, it means that this traffic light is solely controlled by pedestrians.
The flashing green ball in Ontario is practically all but extinct, very few intersections exist, and only one in the huge GTA as far as I know still has a flashing green ball. PPLT movements at intersections now basically mirror those covered under the MUTCD with the use of green and yellow arrows.
Personally I think my progression makes more sense as it allows more movement with how much more "positive" the signal is, look at Google Maps, intuition tells you that green means traffic is moving, yellow means that traffic is moving slowly, and that red means traffic is moving at a stop and go pace. In the Mexican example, the flashing green doesn't make sense to me as it seems to indicate a negative compared to what the red and yellow flashes meant.
In some areas of Canada, even some parts of Ontario, they allow the left turn arrows to flash....this doesn't mean anything different at all (even though I'm not much of a fan of it). The Mexican seems to have uneccesarily created a second step to get to red, the single step to red (the yellow) is all you need, that is the purpose of the yellow, to tell drivers that the green is over and the light will be red, and to stop if you can.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 11, 2016, 10:44:49 PM
And the real kicker to all of this, even in different parts of Canada, a flashing green ball means something totally different. In BC, it means that this traffic light is solely controlled by pedestrians.
The flashing green ball in Ontario is practically all but extinct, very few intersections exist, and only one in the huge GTA as far as I know still has a flashing green ball. PPLT movements at intersections now basically mirror those covered under the MUTCD with the use of green and yellow arrows.
Personally I think my progression makes more sense as it allows more movement with how much more "positive" the signal is, look at Google Maps, intuition tells you that green means traffic is moving, yellow means that traffic is moving slowly, and that red means traffic is moving at a stop and go pace. In the Mexican example, the flashing green doesn't make sense to me as it seems to indicate a negative compared to what the red and yellow flashes meant.
In some areas of Canada, even some parts of Ontario, they allow the left turn arrows to flash....this doesn't mean anything different at all (even though I'm not much of a fan of it). The Mexican seems to have uneccesarily created a second step to get to red, the single step to red (the yellow) is all you need, that is the purpose of the yellow, to tell drivers that the green is over and the light will be red, and to stop if you can.
Could someone explain BC's version of flashing green in the most simplistic way possible? :)
I've noticed in KW that left turn signals use flashing green arrows, while right turn signals use solid green arrows. I've also noticed that going NB on Regina St at Bridgeport Rd in Waterloo, the left turn arrow completely lacks a yellow arrow. It goes from green arrow to nothing. Does the OTM Book 12 allow this, since it seems sketchy :confused:
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 06:18:59 PM
Could someone explain BC's version of flashing green in the most simplistic way possible? :)
Flashing green orbs indicate signal heads that are pedestrian-controlled. If the signal is at an intersection, the intersecting street(s) have stop signs.
It's common to see driver's gun it (stop sign be-damned) when they see the pedestrian signal face displaying anything except a solid red hand, because they know cross-traffic is facing a red signal, and it may be a while until they have another chance to go. Vancouver's main arterial roads are chock full of flashing green orbs.
Quote from: jakeroot on July 19, 2016, 07:41:01 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 06:18:59 PM
Could someone explain BC's version of flashing green in the most simplistic way possible? :)
Flashing green orbs indicate signal heads that are pedestrian-controlled. If the signal is at an intersection, the intersecting street(s) have stop signs.
It's common to see driver's gun it (stop sign be-damned) when they see the pedestrian signal face displaying anything except a solid red hand, because they know cross-traffic is facing a red signal, and it may be a while until they have another chance to go. Vancouver's main arterial roads are chock full of flashing green orbs.
Okay, so would it be like this intersection in Waterloo (Albert St and Seagram Dr):
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4722513,-80.5300766,3a,37.5y,131.98h,89.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL3hPVQpxMHBE6kKN5Hz0-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4722513,-80.5300766,3a,37.5y,131.98h,89.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL3hPVQpxMHBE6kKN5Hz0-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FHxk4y9j.png&hash=1bab207e333614bda3df575a3f629808675d4f37)
Except while in Ontario we would use a solid green, in B.C. this would have a flashing green.
I've found these a bit confusing. When sitting at the red light facing north on Albert, it feels tempting to make the "left on red" if no cars are on Seagram since you wouldn't be passing through the crosswalk. But I'm not sure if this is allowed. :hmmm:
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 06:18:59 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 11, 2016, 10:44:49 PM
And the real kicker to all of this, even in different parts of Canada, a flashing green ball means something totally different. In BC, it means that this traffic light is solely controlled by pedestrians.
The flashing green ball in Ontario is practically all but extinct, very few intersections exist, and only one in the huge GTA as far as I know still has a flashing green ball. PPLT movements at intersections now basically mirror those covered under the MUTCD with the use of green and yellow arrows.
Personally I think my progression makes more sense as it allows more movement with how much more "positive" the signal is, look at Google Maps, intuition tells you that green means traffic is moving, yellow means that traffic is moving slowly, and that red means traffic is moving at a stop and go pace. In the Mexican example, the flashing green doesn't make sense to me as it seems to indicate a negative compared to what the red and yellow flashes meant.
In some areas of Canada, even some parts of Ontario, they allow the left turn arrows to flash....this doesn't mean anything different at all (even though I'm not much of a fan of it). The Mexican seems to have uneccesarily created a second step to get to red, the single step to red (the yellow) is all you need, that is the purpose of the yellow, to tell drivers that the green is over and the light will be red, and to stop if you can.
Could someone explain BC's version of flashing green in the most simplistic way possible? :)
I've noticed in KW that left turn signals use flashing green arrows, while right turn signals use solid green arrows. I've also noticed that going NB on Regina St at Bridgeport Rd in Waterloo, the left turn arrow completely lacks a yellow arrow. It goes from green arrow to nothing. Does the OTM Book 12 allow this, since it seems sketchy :confused:
Does the intersection you mention use split phasing, because if it does, the green ball and green arrow both end simultaneously and just a yellow ball appears.
Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 19, 2016, 08:34:54 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 06:18:59 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on July 11, 2016, 10:44:49 PM
And the real kicker to all of this, even in different parts of Canada, a flashing green ball means something totally different. In BC, it means that this traffic light is solely controlled by pedestrians.
The flashing green ball in Ontario is practically all but extinct, very few intersections exist, and only one in the huge GTA as far as I know still has a flashing green ball. PPLT movements at intersections now basically mirror those covered under the MUTCD with the use of green and yellow arrows.
Personally I think my progression makes more sense as it allows more movement with how much more "positive" the signal is, look at Google Maps, intuition tells you that green means traffic is moving, yellow means that traffic is moving slowly, and that red means traffic is moving at a stop and go pace. In the Mexican example, the flashing green doesn't make sense to me as it seems to indicate a negative compared to what the red and yellow flashes meant.
In some areas of Canada, even some parts of Ontario, they allow the left turn arrows to flash....this doesn't mean anything different at all (even though I'm not much of a fan of it). The Mexican seems to have uneccesarily created a second step to get to red, the single step to red (the yellow) is all you need, that is the purpose of the yellow, to tell drivers that the green is over and the light will be red, and to stop if you can.
Could someone explain BC's version of flashing green in the most simplistic way possible? :)
I've noticed in KW that left turn signals use flashing green arrows, while right turn signals use solid green arrows. I've also noticed that going NB on Regina St at Bridgeport Rd in Waterloo, the left turn arrow completely lacks a yellow arrow. It goes from green arrow to nothing. Does the OTM Book 12 allow this, since it seems sketchy :confused:
Does the intersection you mention use split phasing, because if it does, the green ball and green arrow both end simultaneously and just a yellow ball appears.
It's not split phasing. Here's the intersection and signal in question (on Regina facing north):
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4677751,-80.5218775,3a,37.5y,341h,92.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smJs0SdtzZEabkNduglrW_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4677751,-80.5218775,3a,37.5y,341h,92.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smJs0SdtzZEabkNduglrW_A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FylFFkmh.png&hash=2ec7e2ed064885d3ea4f011969e9bd45d3a201ca)
Bridgeport is a one-way street (going west), while Regina is two-way. For Regina St, the signal phasing is as follows:
1) for NB, green bulb and green left arrow
2) green bulb for both directions
Because Regina St is only two-lanes (one each way), the left turn signal is definitely needed since a single left turning vehicle is enough to block all the cars behind it. And of course, SB doesn't need any arrow since Bridgeport is one-way :)
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 19, 2016, 07:41:01 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 06:18:59 PM
Could someone explain BC's version of flashing green in the most simplistic way possible? :)
Flashing green orbs indicate signal heads that are pedestrian-controlled. If the signal is at an intersection, the intersecting street(s) have stop signs.
It's common to see driver's gun it (stop sign be-damned) when they see the pedestrian signal face displaying anything except a solid red hand, because they know cross-traffic is facing a red signal, and it may be a while until they have another chance to go. Vancouver's main arterial roads are chock full of flashing green orbs.
Okay, so would it be like this intersection in Waterloo (Albert St and Seagram Dr):
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4722513,-80.5300766,3a,37.5y,131.98h,89.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL3hPVQpxMHBE6kKN5Hz0-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4722513,-80.5300766,3a,37.5y,131.98h,89.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL3hPVQpxMHBE6kKN5Hz0-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Except while in Ontario we would use a solid green, in B.C. this would have a flashing green.
I've found these a bit confusing. When sitting at the red light facing north on Albert, it feels tempting to make the "left on red" if no cars are on Seagram since you wouldn't be passing through the crosswalk. But I'm not sure if this is allowed.
Yes, this signal would feature a flashing green orb in BC.
As for the left turn paradox, it's hard to say. Technically, the stop line is for the crosswalk. But if your maneuver doesn't take you over the crosswalk, I'm not certain that it counts as running the light. You do have to pass over the stop line to turn left, however. So I'd probably just sit and wait. But if you did turn left on red, and a cop stopped you, you might get off with a warning (simply explain to him that you thought the signal was for the crosswalk, not the side street -- not sure if that would work, but that's what I'd say).
BC gets around this issue by using two crosswalks, one for each side of the intersection. So to turn left, you'd have to cross one of the crosswalks.
Quote from: jakeroot on July 19, 2016, 09:37:43 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 08:23:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 19, 2016, 07:41:01 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on July 19, 2016, 06:18:59 PM
Could someone explain BC's version of flashing green in the most simplistic way possible? :)
Flashing green orbs indicate signal heads that are pedestrian-controlled. If the signal is at an intersection, the intersecting street(s) have stop signs.
It's common to see driver's gun it (stop sign be-damned) when they see the pedestrian signal face displaying anything except a solid red hand, because they know cross-traffic is facing a red signal, and it may be a while until they have another chance to go. Vancouver's main arterial roads are chock full of flashing green orbs.
Okay, so would it be like this intersection in Waterloo (Albert St and Seagram Dr):
https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4722513,-80.5300766,3a,37.5y,131.98h,89.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL3hPVQpxMHBE6kKN5Hz0-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4722513,-80.5300766,3a,37.5y,131.98h,89.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sL3hPVQpxMHBE6kKN5Hz0-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Except while in Ontario we would use a solid green, in B.C. this would have a flashing green.
I've found these a bit confusing. When sitting at the red light facing north on Albert, it feels tempting to make the "left on red" if no cars are on Seagram since you wouldn't be passing through the crosswalk. But I'm not sure if this is allowed.
Yes, this signal would feature a flashing green orb in BC.
As for the left turn paradox, it's hard to say. Technically, the stop line is for the crosswalk. But if your maneuver doesn't take you over the crosswalk, I'm not certain that it counts as running the light. You do have to pass over the stop line to turn left, however. So I'd probably just sit and wait. But if you did turn left on red, and a cop stopped you, you might get off with a warning (simply explain to him that you thought the signal was for the crosswalk, not the side street -- not sure if that would work, but that's what I'd say).
BC gets around this issue by using two crosswalks, one for each side of the intersection. So to turn left, you'd have to cross one of the crosswalks.
That's a good idea. Or they could put a sign saying either left on red allowed or no left on red. I don't remember my driving school explaining this scenario either.