From Ars Technica:
Death by GPS
Why do we follow digital maps into dodgy places?Quote
What happened to the Chretiens is so common in some places that it has a name. The park rangers at Death Valley National Park in California call it "death by GPS." It describes what happens when your GPS fails you, not by being wrong, exactly, but often by being too right. It does such a good job of computing the most direct route from Point A to Point B that it takes you down roads which barely exist, or were used at one time and abandoned, or are not suitable for your car, or which require all kinds of local knowledge that would make you aware that making that turn is bad news.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1e5)
People don't think. Interesting article about the pathways created in the brain. Physical maps create stronger pathways.
Most of us on here could make any trip without GPS, but I like the traffic information, i like Waze information on speed traps. But I prefer Google maps for an overall view.
Another question: do normal people ever look at maps anymore?
There is a degree of Darwinism at work here. I always thought this piece piece from 20/20 was pretty telling in regards to the road navigating ability of the average American driver these days:
What is somewhat shocking to someone like me is the nonchalant nature of this expedition, lack of preparation and lack of common sense. Basically they play this piece up like it was some sort of sympathetic story when I view it as an adult endangering others out of stupidity.
I've mentioned this before, my TomTom hates a paved road not too far from here and insists on directing me to turn onto every dirt cow path leading off it.
It's nearby so I know it's wrong, but I can imagine travelers to this area having a bad time on that stretch of hiway.
If its wasn't the computer telling them where to go, then they would have picked an obscure route on a paper map just the same. Even before technology, a wiser mind would tell you to stay off unfamiliar non-primary routes at night.
The truth of the matter is, that if you're going to take backroads, you should do your homework first and figure out if those roads are paved, over uneven terrain, or might be unsuitable beforehand. Satellite technology and photography makes this much easier than even two decades ago. While it's easy to jump to conclusions that technology "makes us dumber" it can actually help us make smarter or less-risky decisions, and still make an enjoyable and safe trip. Personally, it's a wonderful tool but not a complete substitute for prior research and one's instincts. An extreme example isn't going to stop me altogether, either.
The data in a GPS (or any software) is only as good as the humans who collected, sorted, and input hundreds-of-thousands of miles of road information; and then the programming of it in the first place, and the lawyers who tell you to watch for road conditions before venturing out with the machine giving the instructions.
I will keep repeating it, no matter what. I don't care if I sound like a broken record. I will never trust the GPS. I will never trust the GPS. I will never trust the GPS.
Now that that's out of my head, it also leads to disagreements. My brother says that the GPS is accurate and whatever and that I'm worse than it, blah blah blah. It's annoying, to say the least.
At least I can get paper maps without any hassle. It's also really strange that I'm planning a route the old fashioned way, because either I memorize it or try and get an "aerial" view.
Quote from: formulanone on June 12, 2016, 10:19:52 AM
If its wasn't the computer telling them where to go, then they would have picked an obscure route on a paper map just the same.
The truth of the matter is, that if you're going to take backroads, you should do your homework first and figure out if those roads are paved, over uneven terrain, or might be unsuitable beforehand. Satellite technology makes this much easier than even two decades ago. While it's easy to jump to conclusions that technology "makes us dumber" it can actually help us make smarter or less-risky decisions, and still make an enjoyable and safe trip.
About a month back I was traveling from Carson City down to ironically all places Death Valley. I don't know if it was GPS units or not but there was at least a dozen cars that jumped off onto ungraded roads in the National Park which I know from experience become a struggle for anything less than high clearance....if not 4wd. I think it's just in the nature of people to see a sign and assume there is a reliable road or the GPS knows the difference between a graded road, improved road or paved highway.
In the main example cited in that article, it wasn't even GPS doing a lot of the work. They had decided on a route using a map. And they didn't really decide on a route, but rather simply assumed they would get back to the highway without a problem.
Most of us would be willing to take such detours, but most of us would also look to see what our options are in getting back to the highway.
There's a host of issues here:
A) Bad drivers (and passenger seat drivers). They rely on too little information, rather than making decisions up as they go.
B) Thinking there's a better way. The other recent thread on Waze shows that sometimes, the result is increased traffic on a side street. In this case, they are fatally lost.
C) Making bad decision after bad decision. So, you've already gone umpteen miles out of your way, and you're not getting where you want to go. Do you decide to keep pressing on, like these people did, or do you decide to cut your losses and go back?
I was taking a trip one time from Vegas to the Grand Canyon's North Rim. Unbeknownst to me, my route would take me thru a National Park with a $25 fee. When I got there, I decided I didn't want to pay it, and asked how I could go anther way. The ranger told me just to go back to the first traffic light. Well, in my travels, I didn't know where that last traffic light was. I drove 30 minutes...and no traffic light! At that point, I cut my losses, made another U-turn, and returned to the National Park, paying my $25. That's the route I had directions for, and decided I'll just deal with it. The rangers were nice and informed me that by keeping my receipts from National Parks, once I reached $50 (at the time), I would get the Yearly pass anyway (which I may only have used for one other trip). While I was never in any real danger, it shows that sometimes you just need to make a decision based on what you do know, rather than venturing into the unknown.
D) Electronic devices really are the devil. Going back to Internet mapping sites, they weren't very accurate when they first came out. I saw numerous examples, a frequent one being motorists entering Delaware from NJ were told to take Exit 5 for I-95 South. This is where 295 South turns left and becomes 95 South...along with an Exit at that same location for Rt. 141 North...which was marked Exit 5. Thru my frequent travels here, I would watch vehicles merge left to exit at Exit 5, only to quickly swerve right again realizing that I-95 South continued on. This error lasted for years. I wonder how many people wound up in Newport, Delaware and points North, wondering what happened to I-95.
As mentioned, Waze is another one. As jwolfer points out, he uses it for speed traps. Why? Unless you make it a habit of driving 20 mph over the limit, chances are as long as you're within 10 mph or so on the highway you're fine. I've seen Waze point out speed traps, because there was a cop car there. That cop would be tending to an accident, or clear on the other side of the highway, but some worrywart posted there was a speed trap there. And what does the overly cautious driver do? Slow down to 5 mph below the speed limit in the left lane, creating other issues.
GPSs are fine and have their place, but some people have way too much over-reliance on them. And there truly are people that can't find their mailbox down the end of the driveway without them. But hey, they knew what the red, 8 sided sign with the letters STOP meant, and could correctly site that 0.08 was the legal limit for alcohol, so they got their license...and had no clue how to get home from the testing center without using those electronic devices that have caused so many accidents.
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 12, 2016, 10:23:54 AM
I will keep repeating it, no matter what. I don't care if I sound like a broken record. I will never trust the GPS. I will never trust the GPS. I will never trust the GPS.
Says the fellow who hasn't legally driven a car yet. They're great for pointing out that a route is filled with too much traffic, accidents, or construction. If you're willing to take a decent alternative, they can save your bacon on a tight schedule, or other annoyances incurred with not/barely moving. While I won't deter you from doing things the old-fashioned way; I do the same for unfamiliar places or places I want to check out, a map (or really anything else) can also be a distraction, due to its size. A handful of slow-day media incidents are not indicative of the whole nor the masses.
And that same GPS helps a bit if you actually get lost...surely, I can't be the only person who found their way into something and wanted a bit of assistance in getting back on track?
GPS is a tool. As others have pointed out, you still have to use some thought.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
I'll have to try to recreate the directions, but it was another National Park we approached on our way to the North Rim who ranger told us to go back to the first light if I wanted to avoid paying the fee. It was probably legit directions, but I would've been totally lost.
Remember, this was 2006, not 2015. We didn't have GPSs back then for the most part.
I agree - GPS is a tool. It can be used with great result, or get you to the middle of nowhere.. Or you can hit your finger with a hammer to basically same effect.
Paper maps are not perfect as well, with limited details and infrequent updates... What GPS can do - and paper maps are less likely to do - is hide a bigger picture. You're also more likely to find yourself without paper map for a given area - and my phone has offline maps for 50 states, 6 provinces and Mexico... Just in case - and storage is so cheap these days...
Neither GPS nor paper are substitute for common sense. Worst comes to worst - pull over and ask for directions!
The ironic thing about that story is that if they had just stayed on Idaho 51, it would later become Nevada 225, and go right through Mountain City. Heck, if they were even more patient, they could've driven to Elko and take I-80 east to US 93. How did they forget that interstate? If that doesn't work out, they should've scrapped their plans and just slept in the van.
Should've had second thoughts when the road leads you into dirt.
Even if your GPS was perfect, cars do break down sometimes. Venturing into a severe and unpopulated environment like Death Valley, you should have a couple of days' water with you and start rationing it as soon as you run into difficulties.
I remember the Park Service map and road signs being pretty clear and perfectly adequate for navigation to major points like Scotty's Castle. Going off the paved roads without consulting local authorities was their second big mistake, followed closely by not leaving their detailed route plan with someone who could inform searchers.
and I have slow internet in this rural backwater.
Last time I tried to update my TomTom it indicated it was going to something like 12 or 13 hours, TomTom website will kick you off long before an update that long can finish.
Quote from: kalvado on June 12, 2016, 12:16:10 PM
I agree - GPS is a tool. It can be used with great result, or get you to the middle of nowhere.. Or you can hit your finger with a hammer to basically same effect.
Paper maps are not perfect as well, with limited details and infrequent updates... What GPS can do - and paper maps are less likely to do - is hide a bigger picture. You're also more likely to find yourself without paper map for a given area - and my phone has offline maps for 50 states, 6 provinces and Mexico... Just in case - and storage is so cheap these days...
Neither GPS nor paper are substitute for common sense. Worst comes to worst - pull over and ask for directions!
The importance of hiding the bigger picture is not to be underestimated. When you get stuck in a traffic jam on the Interstate in the middle of nowhere and you're trying to figure out whether that next exit will give you a viable alternate route, the navigation function often won't help because if you exit, it will start bleating at you to make a U-turn, and if you zoom out, you may not be able to see that back road you'd be using. Depending on the design of your device, swiping across the screen lots of times may not be a viable option, especially if you don't have a passenger (this is one reason why I like having a joystick below the one in my primary car). I'm sure all of this is one major reason why some people just follow what the device says.
With that said, obviously they can be very useful for guiding you back to a place if you do turn off the main road in unfamiliar territory, whether it's to take an alternate route or to go visit someone who lives off the beaten path or whatever, and they can be quite helpful for things like finding what gas stations are nearby and the like. I certainly like having one available to me even if I'm not using the navigation function probably 95% of the time I'm driving.
("Not using the navigation function" denoting that since my device is built into the dashboard, I go ahead and hit the "OK" button on the nag screen so the map comes on, partly because doing so also enables the XM track information screen and the voice control for the audio system and climate control.)
QuoteWhat GPS can do - and paper maps are less likely to do - is hide a bigger picture.
On the other hand, hiding the big picture can be a good thing. If this couple coming from Canada to Nevada only had a paper map, they would've been more likely to stay on the routes shown on that map, instead of taking needless risks in the goal of 'finding scenery'.
Quote from: formulanone on June 12, 2016, 10:19:52 AM
If its wasn't the computer telling them where to go, then they would have picked an obscure route on a paper map just the same.
Sums it up perfectly in my opinion.
I won't even get off the main drag to get gas unless I can see the actual sign for the gas station from the road(if you've ever driven through PA, you know what I'm talking about). And I'm someone who is in great physical shape and can fend for myself just fine.
The reality is, it's part of this new era where people refuse to take responsibility for their own actions. It's not just the "millennials" that are guilty of it, it's a plague sweeping across this entire country. Remember when your parents told you to bring a coat even though it was 85* outside "just in case?" Now we blame the weather for dropping to 50* overnight.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2016, 03:20:44 PM
QuoteWhat GPS can do - and paper maps are less likely to do - is hide a bigger picture.
On the other hand, hiding the big picture can be a good thing. If this couple coming from Canada to Nevada only had a paper map, they would've been more likely to stay on the routes shown on that map, instead of taking needless risks in the goal of 'finding scenery'.
By "big picture" I mean positions of major roads and where they eventually lead you. Quickest glance on paper map (assuming you know where you are on paper map!) will tell that turning right mans going towards major highway, and on the left road splits up into local roads and disappears - something that may not be obvious behind a thick "suggested route" line on the screen.
Yeah, if they had just kept going, they would have gotten to Mountain City just fine, and eventually to I-80. Why the GPS tried to route them on dirt roads instead is a mystery.
Apparently GPS devices have a "use major roads" option. It seems quite clear to me that this option should be mandated by law to be the default, especially since people appear to assume it is anyways. In fact, I would go so far as to say that perhaps it should be illegal for any kind of driving directions to route someone on a dirt road under any circumstances unless their origin or destination is on one, at the very least if the user doesn't select a "route on minor roads" option that would require the user to read a dialog informing them of the risk that routing entails. Perhaps we could even go so far as to give the GPS what type of vehicle you're driving every time you turn it on and for the GPS to have data for all types of vehicles (which would help prevent the trucks crashing into bridges because they're using a car GPS).
Quote from: vdeane on June 12, 2016, 05:22:54 PM
Yeah, if they had just kept going, they would have gotten to Mountain City just fine, and eventually to I-80. Why the GPS tried to route them on dirt roads instead is a mystery.
Apparently GPS devices have a "use major roads" option. It seems quite clear to me that this option should be mandated by law to be the default, especially since people appear to assume it is anyways. In fact, I would go so far as to say that perhaps it should be illegal for any kind of driving directions to route someone on a dirt road under any circumstances unless their origin or destination is on one, at the very least if the user doesn't select a "route on minor roads" option that would require the user to read a dialog informing them of the risk that routing entails. Perhaps we could even go so far as to give the GPS what type of vehicle you're driving every time you turn it on and for the GPS to have data for all types of vehicles (which would help prevent the trucks crashing into bridges because they're using a car GPS).
My old boss had a full size RV bus. He had to be careful with tree canopies on many residential streets
I think most GPSs have 3 options: Avoid tolls (doesn't apply here), shortest route by mileage, and shortest route by time. I'd bet the default on some GPSs are by mileage, which maybe this person didn't know.
Sounds like they took it out of the box on their journey, without any knowledge of the thing. That's like a runner putting on brand new running shoes at the starting line of a marathon...they are bound to have issues during the race because they haven't broken them in, and have no clue how their feet will react.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2016, 05:57:29 PM
Sounds like they took it out of the box on their journey, without any knowledge of the thing. That's like a runner putting on brand new running shoes at the starting line of a marathon...they are bound to have issues during the race because they haven't broken them in, and have no clue how their feet will react.
When people get themselves into these sort of situations, it also involves another sort of lack of knowlege: namely, a failure to appreciate the level of wilderness they are dealing with.
This couple decided to take ID 51 south and assumed that surely there must be some way back to US 93, never expecting that the closest road suitable for travel by ordinary vehicles that would accomplish that is I-80, nearly 200 miles ahead. Clearly, they were oblivious as to just how remote the area they were driving through was, and made some decisions even before they started using their GPS which were bad due to their lack of situational awareness.
What's incredible about this, too, is that it's not like this couple was from the eastern seaboard or somewhere else where they may never have experienced anything approaching the levels of remoteness that are typical in the western US. No, they are from British Columbia. They should be used to infrequent road connections being a thing.
So, I see an issue here that is broader than just blindly trusting one's GPS to find them a route. I see an issue here where people are traveling without knowing what sort of places their journey will take them through, and are not prepared to handle the circumstances that might arise from it.
If you are going to drive down dirt roads through the wilderness in Northern Nevada where if your vehicle gets stranded it may be weeks until the next human passes your location, you had really better come prepared with supplies and a plan for what you do if that happens, since these are the sort of situations where lack of preparedness can easily be deadly.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2016, 11:25:05 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
I'll have to try to recreate the directions, but it was another National Park we approached on our way to the North Rim who ranger told us to go back to the first light if I wanted to avoid paying the fee. It was probably legit directions, but I would've been totally lost.
Remember, this was 2006, not 2015. We didn't have GPSs back then for the most part.
The short runners would be Zion or Bryce National Parks, maybe Pipe Spring National Monument? I'm fairly certain that there are some dirt roads that still access Mount Trumbell on the North Rim but those won't be anything but a good high clearance vehicle can handle. I'm fairly certain AZ 67 was it until you get by that Park Gate.
:-D https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 12, 2016, 10:34:37 PM
:-D https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.
Probably the worst incident I ever heard of at a National Park was at Joshua Tree. Apparently some kids from Eastern Europe took a Charger all the way up I-10 up past the Cottonwood Visitor Center to Black Eagle Mine Road. I was told by a park ranger they found the car a couple weeks latter buried up to the axles and the occupants basically were jerkey from the sun. Apparently they were relying on GPS I'm told as well.
When people come to my house from the south I tell them to ignore the GPS - get off at a specific exit, use the road that parallels the highway, go straight thru the traffic light, and at that point the GPS will recalculate.
I forget if it's Garmin or TomTom because one of them is better at getting people to my house, but if they use the one that screws up the directions, they will follow the GPS as it instructs them to use a slip ramp after the next exit. The problem is, the slip ramp comes up so quick that the GPS barely has a chance to tell them to take it. Next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call with them telling me they're about 5 miles from my house all confused.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:44:18 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 12, 2016, 10:34:37 PM
:-D https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.
Probably the worst incident I ever heard of at a National Park was at Joshua Tree. Apparently some kids from Eastern Europe took a Charger all the way up I-10 up past the Cottonwood Visitor Center to Black Eagle Mine Road. I was told by a park ranger they found the car a couple weeks latter buried up to the axles and the occupants basically were jerkey from the sun. Apparently they were relying on GPS I'm told as well.
In fact... (https://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/directions.htm)
Yeah it's really similar to Death Valley NP where people take roads that no longer exist or their cars can't handle them. This is a desolate area, to be honest, so that should be expected to not rely on the GPS and bring loads of water. Look at these poor souls (http://www.sacbee.com/entertainment/living/travel/article2573180.html) who stuck to the GPS like glue. I think they deserved to die, they should NOT have survived.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
How do you see the North Rim without going into the park??? We just went to Big Bend ($25) knowing we are going to Zion, Bryce, and the North Rim next month so paid the $80. Kind of a guessing game.
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 12, 2016, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:44:18 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on June 12, 2016, 10:34:37 PM
:-D https://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/directions.htm
Even the NPS doesn't want you to follow GPS.
Probably the worst incident I ever heard of at a National Park was at Joshua Tree. Apparently some kids from Eastern Europe took a Charger all the way up I-10 up past the Cottonwood Visitor Center to Black Eagle Mine Road. I was told by a park ranger they found the car a couple weeks latter buried up to the axles and the occupants basically were jerkey from the sun. Apparently they were relying on GPS I'm told as well.
In fact... (https://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/directions.htm)
Yeah it's really similar to Death Valley NP where people take roads that no longer exist or their cars can't handle them. This is a desolate area, to be honest, so that should be expected to not rely on the GPS and bring loads of water. Look at these poor souls (http://www.sacbee.com/entertainment/living/travel/article2573180.html) who stuck to the GPS like glue. I think they deserved to die, they should NOT have survived.
Deserve is a strong weird...stupid yes...lucky to survive yes. And wasn't that basically the same story from the original post? A lot more went into those decisions than just blindly trusting the GPS. Throw on top of the GPS a lack of preparation with emergency supplies, a lack of a respect of the terrain, a lack of understanding what road grade qualities are, a lack of map reading ability and a lack of knowing what your vehicle is/isn't capable of leads to situations like that. Sadly there isn't really a place you can go to get common sense or learn it in a classroom, it's often learned through experience... Although, I don't think that I felt too comfortable with off-roading until I learned out to read BLM and Topo Maps along with having some eased in experience with high-clearance vehicles before I went too crazy seeking out natural wonders or abandoned mines in the desert.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2016, 10:58:03 PM
When people come to my house from the south I tell them to ignore the GPS - get off at a specific exit, use the road that parallels the highway, go straight thru the traffic light, and at that point the GPS will recalculate.
I forget if it's Garmin or TomTom because one of them is better at getting people to my house, but if they use the one that screws up the directions, they will follow the GPS as it instructs them to use a slip ramp after the next exit. The problem is, the slip ramp comes up so quick that the GPS barely has a chance to tell them to take it. Next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call with them telling me they're about 5 miles from my house all confused.
People used to refuse to listen to me tell them the short way and listen to their gps which always took them around the long way.
Quote from: texaskdog on June 13, 2016, 12:11:38 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
How do you see the North Rim without going into the park??? We just went to Big Bend ($25) knowing we are going to Zion, Bryce, and the North Rim next month so paid the $80. Kind of a guessing game.
Well you don't since you technically have to enter the NPS boundary. There is a route that I know exists but it's dirt and from my understanding pretty heavy duty to Mount Trumbull (the big volcano on the North Rim) so I wouldn't suggest trying:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Mount+Trumbull,+Mohave+County,+AZ/Zion+National+Park,+Utah+84737/@36.6591289,-113.2299647,9z/data=!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x80cb6383ff6952cb:0x860d9d209ea79a65!2m2!1d-113.1382671!2d36.4099814!1m5!1m1!1s0x80caead08844f8d9:0x7c2e3a15aa3656f5!2m2!1d-113.0263005!2d37.2982022?hl=en
Basically all that is a lot of BLM land that passes through Grand Canyon/Parashant National Monument. Basically the area is uninhabited and rarely visited. Found a Park Service Map for you:
https://www.nps.gov/para/planyourvisit/maps.htm
Quote from: texaskdog on June 13, 2016, 12:12:40 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2016, 10:58:03 PM
When people come to my house from the south I tell them to ignore the GPS - get off at a specific exit, use the road that parallels the highway, go straight thru the traffic light, and at that point the GPS will recalculate.
I forget if it's Garmin or TomTom because one of them is better at getting people to my house, but if they use the one that screws up the directions, they will follow the GPS as it instructs them to use a slip ramp after the next exit. The problem is, the slip ramp comes up so quick that the GPS barely has a chance to tell them to take it. Next thing I know, I'm getting a phone call with them telling me they're about 5 miles from my house all confused.
People used to refuse to listen to me tell them the short way and listen to their gps which always took them around the long way.
When I lived in Sanford FL GPS invariably would send people coming down a dirt road an unimproved "paper street" that was part of planned development that never happened. My landlord told me when I went to look at the place to go half a mile down and it was all paved.
Granted not the desolation of northern Nevada, but it was on the edge of preservation land.. i saw deer almost everyday, black bears and wild boars.. it was minutes off i4 not 20 miles from downtown Orlando
GPS, paper maps, and online maps are only as good as the people who use them. They are tools. You have to know how to use and understand those tools. Take, for instance, GPS. GPS, by itself, only tells you where you are located by latitude and longitude. It is the maps that tell you exactly where you are, and how to get from point A to point B. GPS is also very when estimating travel times, and have provided alternative routes when rush hour has your main route blocked. I have been known to stare at Google Maps for hours to prepare a trip just to get an idea what to expect.
It always bothers me when people get "new technology" a day or so prior to a trip, then get frustrated when it "doesn't work". Unfortunately, GPS, smartphones, XBox, and Playstations are essentially computers, and more often than not, they need a update right out of the box. People, however, don't want to go through the time and trouble of performing the update. These are the folks who don't read the manual either, or spend some time "playing" with their new toys in a familiar environment. :pan:
But, then again, there are folks who ignore signs that state explicitly "No bull, no service for 106 miles" (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=11581.0). Death Valley is an extreme example of an unforgiving environment that punishes the unprepared. Then, add a multiplier for Summertime, plus a bonus score if that person is dependent on cell phone to get them out of a jam.
Yes, I have been known to travel off the beaten Interstate, and travel in areas with large distances between filling stations. I carry an ice chest filled with drinks just in case, although the primary reason is to save money.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:05:40 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2016, 11:25:05 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
I'll have to try to recreate the directions, but it was another National Park we approached on our way to the North Rim who ranger told us to go back to the first light if I wanted to avoid paying the fee. It was probably legit directions, but I would've been totally lost.
Remember, this was 2006, not 2015. We didn't have GPSs back then for the most part.
The short runners would be Zion or Bryce National Parks, maybe Pipe Spring National Monument? I'm fairly certain that there are some dirt roads that still access Mount Trumbell on the North Rim but those won't be anything but a good high clearance vehicle can handle. I'm fairly certain AZ 67 was it until you get by that Park Gate.
It looks like it was Zion National Park.
Even now, if you use Google Maps for directions from Vegas to Zion National Park to GC North Rim, there's never any mention of the Entry Fee, so like me, it could come as a shock to suddenly bump into this, especially if one doesn't do any additional research. I probably saw this route as something to drive thru and visit on my drive to the North Rim, but didn't have any intentions of stopping here, so I didn't bother to look into it further.
So, just goes to show that even today, those electronic devices aren't going to fill you in on everything!
BTW, most people go to Grand Canyon's South Rim. The North Rim is much more wooded and quiet with wildlife everywhere, with limited lodging and dining options. Definitely off the beaten path...and well worth the trip!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 13, 2016, 09:21:57 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:05:40 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 12, 2016, 11:25:05 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on June 12, 2016, 10:48:16 AM
It's $80 now for that same National Parks Pass you mentioned. Worth every dime if you travel to a lot of parks annually like I do. I think the Park Ranger was trying to punk you, there isn't any traffic lights with the boundary of North Rim....I'm fairly certain there isn't one until Fredonia.
I'll have to try to recreate the directions, but it was another National Park we approached on our way to the North Rim who ranger told us to go back to the first light if I wanted to avoid paying the fee. It was probably legit directions, but I would've been totally lost.
Remember, this was 2006, not 2015. We didn't have GPSs back then for the most part.
The short runners would be Zion or Bryce National Parks, maybe Pipe Spring National Monument? I'm fairly certain that there are some dirt roads that still access Mount Trumbell on the North Rim but those won't be anything but a good high clearance vehicle can handle. I'm fairly certain AZ 67 was it until you get by that Park Gate.
It looks like it was Zion National Park.
Even now, if you use Google Maps for directions from Vegas to Zion National Park to GC North Rim, there's never any mention of the Entry Fee, so like me, it could come as a shock to suddenly bump into this, especially if one doesn't do any additional research. I probably saw this route as something to drive thru and visit on my drive to the North Rim, but didn't have any intentions of stopping here, so I didn't bother to look into it further.
So, just goes to show that even today, those electronic devices aren't going to fill you in on everything!
BTW, most people go to Grand Canyon's South Rim. The North Rim is much more wooded and quiet with wildlife everywhere, with limited lodging and dining options. Definitely off the beaten path...and well worth the trip!
Yeah I'm fairly certain the only reference to a toll being there is the entrance fee page on the NPS website. Like you said it's completely different ballgame out on the North Rim than the south, much more scenic in my opinion....especially if you take US 89A to pass through the Vermillion Cliffs and Marble Canyon. I have a lot of friends who go out to Arizona just to see the South Rim, I always tell them to head to the North Rim so they have easy access to Zion and Bryce as well.
I still can't bring myself to trust a GPS. I bought a little Garmin unit a number of years ago because I thought it would be neat to scroll around on the maps, which didn't turn out to be as easy as I thought (and this was before phone maps became big). We rarely ever pop it out of the glove box except for road trips, and that's really so I can watch my car on the screen depicted as a monster truck, beach ball or tank cruising down the road. I tried the directions once or twice on a route I already knew well, and I almost immediately had to ignore the directions to take what I knew was a better route ('Recalculating...'). It's basically a tool of last resort, and the atlas and other maps take priority. I think I'm probably like a lot of people here who have a good spatial awareness (from all those years staring at maps) that just can't cede control to a voice telling us to turn right or left, or even to written directions without a map.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on June 13, 2016, 09:48:12 PM
I still can't bring myself to trust a GPS. I bought a little Garmin unit a number of years ago because I thought it would be neat to scroll around on the maps, which didn't turn out to be as easy as I thought (and this was before phone maps became big). We rarely ever pop it out of the glove box except for road trips, and that's really so I can watch my car on the screen depicted as a monster truck, beach ball or tank cruising down the road. I tried the directions once or twice on a route I already knew well, and I almost immediately had to ignore the directions to take what I knew was a better route ('Recalculating...'). It's basically a tool of last resort, and the atlas and other maps take priority. I think I'm probably like a lot of people here who have a good spatial awareness (from all those years staring at maps) that just can't cede control to a voice telling us to turn right or left, or even to written directions without a map.
The great irony is that I tend to use my GPS mostly to find addresses on streets. Getting around navigating on highways is a breeze but trying to read an address on a busy city street not so much. But then again that's nothing that Google Street view and a quick photo can't do for me just the same.
my GPS took me across the bad part of Willmington Delaware once, I seriously thought I was gunna die.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on June 13, 2016, 09:48:12 PM
I still can't bring myself to trust a GPS. I bought a little Garmin unit a number of years ago because I thought it would be neat to scroll around on the maps, which didn't turn out to be as easy as I thought (and this was before phone maps became big). We rarely ever pop it out of the glove box except for road trips, and that's really so I can watch my car on the screen depicted as a monster truck, beach ball or tank cruising down the road. I tried the directions once or twice on a route I already knew well, and I almost immediately had to ignore the directions to take what I knew was a better route ('Recalculating...'). It's basically a tool of last resort, and the atlas and other maps take priority. I think I'm probably like a lot of people here who have a good spatial awareness (from all those years staring at maps) that just can't cede control to a voice telling us to turn right or left, or even to written directions without a map.
I haven't spent as much time staring at maps, but I did later learn that I can't just put my trust into a machine. Humans are better than the machines, as we learn, and they don't. I've gotten better at things. The GPS that we formerly used hasn't. I can get around places fine, and I don't need a machine doing it for us.
Quote from: mariethefoxy on June 14, 2016, 12:46:22 AM
my GPS took me across the bad part of Willmington Delaware once, I seriously thought I was gunna die.
All I could think of when I read this was the old Awareness Del skit on Saturday Live. Maybe your GPS was making people aware, aware of Delaware? :-D
Quote from: mariethefoxy on June 14, 2016, 12:46:22 AM
my GPS took me across the bad part of Willmington Delaware once, I seriously thought I was gunna die.
Fixed. :D
Reminds me how people love to bash walmart, how bad things are, and nobody seem to be their customer!
Yet, there are always lots of cars on a parking lot and lines at checkout...
Quote from: kalvado on June 14, 2016, 10:55:04 AM
Reminds me how people love to bash walmart, how bad things are, and nobody seem to be their customer!
Yet, there are always lots of cars on a parking lot and lines at checkout...
Yep. And people say that no one shops there anymore, and they'll be out of business.
Then, Target speaks up. Unless their customers start going to Kmart, they're kinda limited on options where to go. Walmart continues to do quite well.
See also: McDonalds. Chick-fil-a. And every other store on this planet. Forums dedicated to specific chains are interesting, such as the Flyertalk forums for hotels and airlines. Guess what...their customers have had enough, and will have you think that any one specific hotel or airline is the worst, and everyone will start flocking to the competitors. Even better, go back a few years, and those same customers had enough back then too, and they say they're going to start flocking to their competitors!
Oh, and people wonder why companies don't care when customers complain. Unless a company literally kills their customers (yeah, yeah, I see you back there jumping up and down Chi-Chis) or do something so incredibly stupid over a long period of time, they're probably not going to go out of business anytime soon.
As with most people in this forum, I can make most road trips without the aid of GPS or sometimes even without maps. I like Waze for its traffic avoidance, and because, in most places, it tends to be kept up-to-date by editors with local knowledge of the areas they edit, something standalone GPS devices lack.
On the second day of the Corridor H meet, I had plans to meet up for breakfast with a friend of mine who lives in Fairmont, WV. We had plans to have breakfast at the Bob Evans there, which is very easily reached by taking a left turn off the Exit 132 ramp from I-79 southbound (I was coming from my hotel in Morgantown). I have no idea why I didn't look at the blue services signs. Waze had me turn right instead, and, not remembering if my friend had said to turn right or left off the ramp, followed Waze as it eventually took me along a dirt road ("turn right on dirt road") through a housing development still under construction, and into the shopping center from the back. I only decided to continue along this route, knowing it was wrong, because (a) I was early for our meeting, (b) I drive a Subaru with 4WD, and (c) I'm a roadgeek. Remove (a) or (b) and I would have turned around and went back to where I'd come off I-79. When I got to the Bob Evans, I noticed that dirt road had started to knock off my front bumper and I had to do some DIY auto body work.
For reference, with this zoom-in on Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fairmont,+WV+26554/@39.4322141,-80.1839928,16.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x884a7ddaaa5f7171:0xda7771214d47916b!8m2!3d39.4850848!4d-80.1425781), the route it had me take was Vinegar Hill Road to Bentons Ferry Road to bumpy dirt road not on that map to Ashbury Lane and thence to the mall.
I had some short argument with a fellow Area Manager in WV that this should have been marked as a private road. I lost that argument.
Quote from: vdeane on June 12, 2016, 05:22:54 PM
....
Apparently GPS devices have a "use major roads" option. It seems quite clear to me that this option should be mandated by law to be the default, especially since people appear to assume it is anyways. In fact, I would go so far as to say that perhaps it should be illegal for any kind of driving directions to route someone on a dirt road under any circumstances unless their origin or destination is on one, at the very least if the user doesn't select a "route on minor roads" option that would require the user to read a dialog informing them of the risk that routing entails. Perhaps we could even go so far as to give the GPS what type of vehicle you're driving every time you turn it on and for the GPS to have data for all types of vehicles (which would help prevent the trucks crashing into bridges because they're using a car GPS).
To me this makes no sense (no offense to vdeane). Part of that, I'm sure, is my distaste for the idea of government inserting itself into everything and for the idea that passing laws is always the solution (and yes, I know some people would consider that second statement odd in view of my line of work). The bigger reason, in my mind, is that I think this is the sort of issue that ultimately falls to personal responsibility. It doesn't matter whether you actually learned how your sat-nav works–it seems to me if you choose to use one, you tacitly accept the responsibility to use it properly and to know how it works.
As it is, I think the one in my primary car can be a bit too nanny-ish. I'd have to go downstairs and turn on the car to confirm, but I believe mine has the following options:
–Direct Route (uses the shortest-distance route to the destination)
–Easy Route (uses the route with the fewest turns, even if it's longer)
Then under each of those you have:
–Maximize Freeways
–Avoid Freeways (it may say "Minimize Freeways," I'm not positive)
–Avoid Toll Roads
....and I think there's one other option I forget, though I think you may be able to avoid surface streets. Then there's "Detour," which is what it sounds like.
What I find nanny-ish is that "Avoid Freeways" is not selectable if the destination is more than 100 miles away because apparently it would take too long for you to make the trip. (Obviously where an all-freeway route is impractical–say, if I'm going from home to Charlottesville–it will typically use the "highest grade" of road available, which in that example is US-29.) I think the same applies to "Avoid Toll Roads," too. I find this to be dumb because it seems to me you might specifically WANT to take a longer route that avoids Interstates for all sorts of perfectly good reasons, and if that's what you want to do, the device ought to accommodate that. I seldom adjust any of those options, BTW. More often than not when I turn on the directions it's because we're on a trip and I want to find a gas station or lunch spot or I want to confirm the routing to lodging or a friend/relative's house we haven't visited in a year or two. In those situations I don't much care how it routes me. (This past Christmas I used it repeatedly for directions to our hotel near Fort Myers because the turn was easy to miss at night.)
I like the ones though that will take you on side roads or the unconventional, faster way, like driving around town.
Perhaps the classic example (in the Middle-Atlantic) of "death by GPS" might just be the low-water bridges that can be found in various places, including this bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Front+Royal,+VA+22630/@38.9582055,-78.1218374,3a,75y,353.85h,76.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8AAOdrFA_Dbxq6Hfu2rZyA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D8AAOdrFA_Dbxq6Hfu2rZyA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D133.36894%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b5c5b42db888c3:0xda2cea8374e94e78!8m2!3d38.9181671!4d-78.1944446!6m1!1e1), Va. 624, Morgan Ford Road (now closed and being demolished so it can be replaced with a higher bridge).
I have been told that drivers (following their GPS units but not noticing the ample warning signs, including ones that tell drivers not cross when the bridge is covered by water) have driven out onto a bridge that was covered by flowing water and been swept downstream and drowned.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on June 15, 2016, 04:59:20 PM
Perhaps the classic example (in the Middle-Atlantic) of "death by GPS" might just be the low-water bridges that can be found in various places, including this bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Front+Royal,+VA+22630/@38.9582055,-78.1218374,3a,75y,353.85h,76.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8AAOdrFA_Dbxq6Hfu2rZyA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D8AAOdrFA_Dbxq6Hfu2rZyA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D133.36894%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89b5c5b42db888c3:0xda2cea8374e94e78!8m2!3d38.9181671!4d-78.1944446!6m1!1e1), Va. 624, Morgan Ford Road (now closed and being demolished so it can be replaced with a higher bridge).
I have been told that drivers (following their GPS units but not noticing the ample warning signs, including ones that tell drivers not cross when the bridge is covered by water) have driven out onto a bridge that was covered by flowing water and been swept downstream and drowned.
I personally witnessed a similar situation - someone driving past police vehicle with flashing lamps blocking the road into a flood on a major street.
Water was not deep enough to endanger driver, but car remained in water for next 2 hours at least.... No GPS required for that!
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 14, 2016, 08:52:05 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 12, 2016, 05:22:54 PM
....
Apparently GPS devices have a "use major roads" option. It seems quite clear to me that this option should be mandated by law to be the default, especially since people appear to assume it is anyways. In fact, I would go so far as to say that perhaps it should be illegal for any kind of driving directions to route someone on a dirt road under any circumstances unless their origin or destination is on one, at the very least if the user doesn't select a "route on minor roads" option that would require the user to read a dialog informing them of the risk that routing entails. Perhaps we could even go so far as to give the GPS what type of vehicle you're driving every time you turn it on and for the GPS to have data for all types of vehicles (which would help prevent the trucks crashing into bridges because they're using a car GPS).
To me this makes no sense (no offense to vdeane). Part of that, I'm sure, is my distaste for the idea of government inserting itself into everything and for the idea that passing laws is always the solution (and yes, I know some people would consider that second statement odd in view of my line of work). The bigger reason, in my mind, is that I think this is the sort of issue that ultimately falls to personal responsibility. It doesn't matter whether you actually learned how your sat-nav works–it seems to me if you choose to use one, you tacitly accept the responsibility to use it properly and to know how it works.
As it is, I think the one in my primary car can be a bit too nanny-ish. I'd have to go downstairs and turn on the car to confirm, but I believe mine has the following options:
–Direct Route (uses the shortest-distance route to the destination)
–Easy Route (uses the route with the fewest turns, even if it's longer)
Then under each of those you have:
–Maximize Freeways
–Avoid Freeways (it may say "Minimize Freeways," I'm not positive)
–Avoid Toll Roads
....and I think there's one other option I forget, though I think you may be able to avoid surface streets. Then there's "Detour," which is what it sounds like.
What I find nanny-ish is that "Avoid Freeways" is not selectable if the destination is more than 100 miles away because apparently it would take too long for you to make the trip. (Obviously where an all-freeway route is impractical–say, if I'm going from home to Charlottesville–it will typically use the "highest grade" of road available, which in that example is US-29.) I think the same applies to "Avoid Toll Roads," too. I find this to be dumb because it seems to me you might specifically WANT to take a longer route that avoids Interstates for all sorts of perfectly good reasons, and if that's what you want to do, the device ought to accommodate that. I seldom adjust any of those options, BTW. More often than not when I turn on the directions it's because we're on a trip and I want to find a gas station or lunch spot or I want to confirm the routing to lodging or a friend/relative's house we haven't visited in a year or two. In those situations I don't much care how it routes me. (This past Christmas I used it repeatedly for directions to our hotel near Fort Myers because the turn was easy to miss at night.)
What of the personal responsibility of companies to provide the best and most accurate service possible? I would think routing via a paved road rather than a winding gravel road is just plain common sense and blatantly obvious. I would say that people expecting the GPS to route them via a navigable route is a reasonable expectation.
But what does that have to do with passing a law? Your comment seemed to me to be calling for Congress to try to regulate it, presumably via an exercise of Commerce Clause power (whether that would be a valid use of it is a separate question, of course). I thought, and think, that's serious overkill. We already have a tort system in which someone can go after the sat-nav manufacturer. Depending on where you are, it may not be that hard to convince twelve persons of average ignorance that the manufacturer ought to be liable, given some of the other nonsensical verdicts we've seen over the years.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 15, 2016, 08:00:28 PM
But what does that have to do with passing a law? Your comment seemed to me to be calling for Congress to try to regulate it, presumably via an exercise of Commerce Clause power (whether that would be a valid use of it is a separate question, of course). I thought, and think, that's serious overkill. We already have a tort system in which someone can go after the sat-nav manufacturer. Depending on where you are, it may not be that hard to convince twelve persons of average ignorance that the manufacturer ought to be liable, given some of the other nonsensical verdicts we've seen over the years.
There should be some fine print saying that manufacturer is not liable, and user had to acknowledge that on first run.
In fact, here are some quotes from Wase TOC:
Quote
Road information prevails . The information provided by the Service is not intended to replace the information provided on the road, such as travel direction, time based restrictions, lane restrictions, road blockades, traffic signs, traffic lights, police instructions, etc.
Cautious driving . Always drive vigilantly according to road conditions and in accordance with traffic laws.
....
Content submitted by users for publication does not reflect the views of Waze. Publishing Content does not warrant its validity, reliability, accuracy, legality or it being up-to-date.
Every sat-nav I've used has a nag screen that shows up every time you turn it on that basically says what you suggest. The one in my primary car is notable for containing the word "judgement" spelled as I just put it (which is the standard English spelling outside the USA) when it tells you you must "use your own best judgement."
By referring to the tort system I didn't mean to imply I think the manufacturers should be liable as vdeane suggests or that it's somehow their responsibility to ensure nobody ever gets steered wrong. I do firmly believe common sense has a role to play even if common sense doesn't seem so common nowadays. I don't think the fact that your sat-nav recommended you drive down a gravel road that proved impassable is a reason for you to channel Short Round and say "Not my fault, Docta Jones!!!" when your car gets stuck because you didn't turn around when it became clear it was a dodgy route. BUT I also don't want to say I can't ever conceive of a situation where the directions might be problematic.
Some of this sort of thing is why sat-navs won't route you into Rock Creek Parkway in DC (because it's one-way during rush hour and two-way at other times, and the manufacturers don't want to risk a dipshit jury finding them liable when someone goes the wrong way) or I-66 inside the Beltway (because it's HOV-restricted in peak direction and the sat-nav can't know whether you satisfy the restriction, and again they don't want people trying to foist off traffic tickets on them).
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 14, 2016, 08:52:05 PM
What I find nanny-ish is that "Avoid Freeways" is not selectable if the destination is more than 100 miles away because apparently it would take too long for you to make the trip. (Obviously where an all-freeway route is impractical–say, if I'm going from home to Charlottesville–it will typically use the "highest grade" of road available, which in that example is US-29.) I think the same applies to "Avoid Toll Roads," too. I find this to be dumb because it seems to me you might specifically WANT to take a longer route that avoids Interstates for all sorts of perfectly good reasons, and if that's what you want to do, the device ought to accommodate that.
But at that point, you're not using the GPS the way it was intended to be used. It can't guess what routes you want, and if you have a specific route in mind, you don't really need a GPS at that point. If you eliminate all highways and toll roads, it's not going to know if you really want US routes, state routes, etc.
I find google maps most useful in somehow always knowing where bad traffic is.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2016, 11:12:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 14, 2016, 08:52:05 PM
What I find nanny-ish is that "Avoid Freeways" is not selectable if the destination is more than 100 miles away because apparently it would take too long for you to make the trip. (Obviously where an all-freeway route is impractical–say, if I'm going from home to Charlottesville–it will typically use the "highest grade" of road available, which in that example is US-29.) I think the same applies to "Avoid Toll Roads," too. I find this to be dumb because it seems to me you might specifically WANT to take a longer route that avoids Interstates for all sorts of perfectly good reasons, and if that's what you want to do, the device ought to accommodate that.
But at that point, you're not using the GPS the way it was intended to be used. It can't guess what routes you want, and if you have a specific route in mind, you don't really need a GPS at that point. If you eliminate all highways and toll roads, it's not going to know if you really want US routes, state routes, etc.
Sure, but my point is simply that if you want to "avoid freeways," even on a long trip, there's no reason why it ought to second-guess you on that desire, even if it makes the drive considerably longer time-wise due to lower speed limits and traffic lights. I didn't mean to suggest or imply that it ought to be able to know which roads you want, only that it ought to respect your desire to avoid freeways (or toll roads).
BTW, "avoid" not necessarily meaning "stay off entirely," since obviously there are places where that would be unrealistic or insanely impractical (driving from New Jersey into New York City being a good example).