From the 1920s-1960s, US 16 included a ferry segment between Milwaukee and Muskegon. I had always assumed Milwaukee's ferry dock was somewhere near the downtown area... and maybe it was for some of that time. But for several years US 16 was routed along Capitol Drive, which is far to the north of downtown. Was there ever another ferry dock up that way? Like maybe where Atwater Park is now? Aerial photos show some dilapidated docks there, but they don't look very substantial.
Historic Aerials doesn't show any docks up that way going back as far as 1955. The topos all showed 16 going into downtown - one topo had US 16 and 18 on it, and another had just WIS 16. At what time did 16 use Capitol Drive?
Quote from: Alps on June 22, 2016, 07:42:57 PM
At what time did US 16 use Capitol Drive?
Not sure of the full timeframe, but I've seen it that way on 1940 and 1947 maps. You can view one of them by going to the David Rumsey website, searching the collection for "Milwaukee 1940", and clicking on the first result.
Quote from: usends on June 22, 2016, 06:39:18 PM
Was the ferry dock up that way? Like maybe where Atwater Park is now? Aerial photos show some dilapidated docks there, but they don't look very substantial.
Those were never docks. They are breakwaters/groins for the beach.
The old railroad ferry(s) docked on west side of Jones Island on the inside of the last bend in the Kinnickinnic River.
Here:
http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=43.02135,-87.90298&z=17&t=H (http://mapper.acme.com/?ll=43.02135,-87.90298&z=17&t=H)
Quote from: triplemultiplex on June 22, 2016, 10:40:12 PM
The old railroad ferry(s) docked on west side of Jones Island on the inside of the last bend in the Kinnickinnic River.
OK, but was that the same place where the auto ferries docked? I've never seen a map showing US 16 routed to Jones Island.
The auto docks were where Discovery World is right now. Basically at the end of Michigan Street just east of downtown. (That is why the extension of Michigan is Harbor Drive.)
If you look at this site, the second picture has a description of where the "Municipal Passenger and Auto Pier" was located.
http://content.mpl.org/cdm/search/collection/MilwWaterwa/searchterm/Car%20ferries%20--%20Wisconsin%20--%20Milwaukee/mode/exact
BTW, I have a map on my wall circa 1940 that shows the US-16 routing along Capitol Drive ending at US-141. I have never seen a map routing US-16 along US-141 to the downtown auto docks however.
So either it was signed and unmarked on maps, or simply went unsigned up until 1947 when US-16 was moved further south and duplexed with US-18 downtown.
Was US-16 on the downtown route prior to 1940?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 11:23:03 AM
The auto docks were where Discovery World is right now. Basically at the end of Michigan Street just east of downtown. (That is why the extension of Michigan is Harbor Drive.)
Thanks for the info. Was there ever a different location for the car ferry docks? I've never seen a map showing US 16 routed to where Discovery World is now. The maps I've seen show US 16's downtown route going south on Milwaukee, then southeast on Erie, to a point near the river outlet to Lake Michigan; they can be viewed on this temporary page: http://usends.weebly.com/milwaukee.html
I was assuming that, at that time, the ferry dock must have been off Erie, but the maps do not explicitly confirm that.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 11:38:46 AM
...either [US-16] was signed and unmarked on maps, or simply went unsigned up until 1947 when US-16 was moved further south and duplexed with US-18 downtown.
Seems like that would have been really odd, to not direct US 16 traffic to the ferry dock. Do you know for sure that 1947 was the year US 16 was moved off Capitol Drive?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 11:38:46 AM
Was US-16 on the downtown route prior to 1940?
I don't know; 1940 is the earliest detailed map I've seen.
Quote from: usends on June 23, 2016, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 11:23:03 AM
The auto docks were where Discovery World is right now. Basically at the end of Michigan Street just east of downtown. (That is why the extension of Michigan is Harbor Drive.)
Thanks for the info. Was there ever a different location for the car ferry docks? I've never seen a map showing US 16 routed to where Discovery World is now. The maps I've seen show US 16's downtown route going south on Milwaukee, then southeast on Erie, to a point near the river outlet to Lake Michigan; they can be viewed on this temporary page: http://usends.weebly.com/milwaukee.html
I was assuming that, at that time, the ferry dock must have been off Erie, but the maps do not explicitly confirm that.
In looking at those maps, and at some old pictures from that time, I think the carferry docks had to be accessed by Erie Street by car even though they were physically located just east of downtown.
Looks like there was a train station and a bunch of tracks that prevented shorter access by car.
http://content.mpl.org/cdm/ref/collection/MilwWaterwa/id/951
For instance here is an add for the Milwaukee Seadrome from the Milwaukee Journal in 1939 that specifically states "Autos take East Erie Street."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19390805&id=kK5QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=OSIEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5928,4658164&hl=en
Finally, if you go to the section marked "The Ward" here, you can a map that looks like docks just east of downtown, but no street to access it.
https://books.google.com/books?id=kSr9CwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Milwaukee+in+the+1930s:+A+Federal+Writers+Project+City+Guide&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj6pcbB2L7NAhWINj4KHYCQDScQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=Milwaukee%20in%20the%201930s%3A%20A%20Federal%20Writers%20Project%20City%20Guide&f=false
Quote from: usends on June 23, 2016, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 11:38:46 AM
...either [US-16] was signed and unmarked on maps, or simply went unsigned up until 1947 when US-16 was moved further south and duplexed with US-18 downtown.
Seems like that would have been really odd, to not direct US 16 traffic to the ferry dock. Do you know for sure that 1947 was the year US 16 was moved off Capitol Drive?
Yes. From Bessert's page on WI-190
"Prior to 1947, Capitol Dr from the Village of Pewaukee easterly through Milwaukee to Shorewood was designated as part of US-16, stretching across the state as part of the Detroit-to-Yellowstone routing of that US Highway. Also at that time, STH-19 was one of three highways running from Madison to Milwaukee (STH-30 and US-18 were the other two), running concurrently with US-16 from Watertown to Pewaukee and with US-18/STH-30 from Waukesha into Milwaukee. In 1947, STH-19 was scaled back to end in Watertown and the sole non-concurrent stretch of that highway from Pewaukee to US-18/STH-30 at Goerkes Corners northeast of Waukesha was redesignated as a part of a relocated US-16, which then continued easterly with US-18 & STH-30 into downtown Milwaukee. This left Capitol Dr from Pewaukee to Shorewood–which had been designated US-16–without a state trunk highway designation. The STH-190 routing was applied to that route and has remained ever since. While Capitol Dr has been upgraded greatly since 1947, it has remained in the same place locationally."
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 01:41:20 PM
In looking at those maps, and at some old pictures from that time, I think the carferry docks had to be accessed by Erie Street by car even though they were physically located just east of downtown.
Looks like there was a train station and a bunch of tracks that prevented shorter access by car.
Yes, I think that may very well be true, and that seems to make sense when viewing the last map on my page:
http://usends.weebly.com/milwaukee.html
However, I have just added another map (fifth one down; you may have to refresh the page) that is pretty clear about a different location for the ferry dock, off Erie. I wonder if that was a temporary situation; maybe the original docks on the lakeshore had been damaged and required repairs...
The simple answer could be that the auto docks were moved from the location just east of downtown to the Erie Street location to make it more accessible.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 02:31:50 PM
The simple answer could be that the auto docks were moved from the location just east of downtown to the Erie Street location to make it more accessible.
True, but the reason I thought it might have been temporary is because the 1956 map showed the Erie dock, but the 1967 map showed the dock back on the lakeshore.
Quote from: usends on June 23, 2016, 01:15:15 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 11:38:46 AM
...either [US-16] was signed and unmarked on maps, or simply went unsigned up until 1947 when US-16 was moved further south and duplexed with US-18 downtown.
Seems like that would have been really odd, to not direct US 16 traffic to the ferry dock. Do you know for sure that 1947 was the year US 16 was moved off Capitol Drive?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 11:38:46 AM
Was US-16 on the downtown route prior to 1940?
I don't know; 1940 is the earliest detailed map I've seen.
The 1934 Milwaukee County Highway Map shows US 16 running to US 141 Shorewood.
http://www.themakingofmilwaukee.com/classroom/photo_large.cfm?cat=11&p=758
Note that downloading the image only improves its legibility slightly so that you can tell US 16 does this but it is hard to see if all the shields along Lakeshore south to downtown are 141s...
Quote from: usends on June 23, 2016, 02:46:53 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 23, 2016, 02:31:50 PM
The simple answer could be that the auto docks were moved from the location just east of downtown to the Erie Street location to make it more accessible.
True, but the reason I thought it might have been temporary is because the 1956 map showed the Erie dock, but the 1967 map showed the dock back on the lakeshore.
Or maybe they were always on the lakeshore and the map made an assumption given where the highway ended.
Interesting question. I can do some additional research and see what I come up with.
I have examined aerial photographs of the Erie Street location from 1951, 1955 and 1963 and it is not an obvious ferry dock; no discernible staging area. However, the 1955 aerial available at Historic Aerials appears to show the Milwaukee Clipper docked along Erie St. at this location. The 1963 aerial shows the ferry terminal at the modern location of Discovery World.
Cross-lake auto/passenger ferry service between Milwaukee and Michigan was handled by the Milwaukee Clipper beginning in 1941. The ferry company even advertised itself as a water link of US 16 in its timetables.
The original Clipper dock in Milwaukee was indeed located at the foot of E. Erie Street, along the Milwaukee River. There wasn't much of a segregated auto staging area, just some empty lots across from the terminal building, as well as inside the building itself (the Clipper was side-loaded, so cars had to go through the building in order to be loaded).
The Clipper's dock was relocated to the lakefront about 1960 or so, to the then-new Municipal Pier. In addition to the new terminal building, there was plenty of staging area to accommodate autos. The boat continued to dock there until service was discontinued in 1970.
Incidentally, in the off-tourist season, the Milwaukee Clipper was used to carry loads of brand new automobiles across the lake (for example, westbound loads of GM cars from Michigan; eastbound Nash/AMC cars from Wisconsin). For a while this service was so successful that a second boat was acquired (decommissioned Navy LST 393) and converted just for new auto shipments (no passenger accommodations). This boat was named Highway 16, in reference to the US highway route to which it connected. Highway 16 plied the water between Milwaukee and Muskegon from 1948 to 1973.
Both the Milwaukee Clipper and Highway 16 (reconverted back into WWII veteran LST 393) are docked in Muskegon today as floating maritime museums.
At long last! A mid-1950's photo at the terminus of US 16/E. Erie Street in Milwaukee, next to the Milwaukee Clipper's riverside office/dock. As the signage indicates, autos were loaded onto the boat via a passageway through the building just off the right edge of the photo.
(https://s25.postimg.org/ebme08f7j/Milwaukee_Clipper_Erie_Street_Milwaukee.jpg)
Great photo, thanks for sharing. Where did you get it?
Quote from: usends on December 09, 2016, 09:32:54 AM
Great photo, thanks for sharing. Where did you get it?
The photo was making the rounds recently on the Old Milwaukee and AmeriCar the Beautiful groups on Facebook.
I wonder how long it took to get across the lake by ferry, and if it wouldn't have been faster, even then, to just drive around it? Awesome picture, by the way!
Quote from: slorydn1 on December 28, 2016, 11:46:58 PM
I wonder how long it took to get across the lake by ferry, and if it wouldn't have been faster, even then, to just drive around it? Awesome picture, by the way!
I'd imagine about the same amount of time it takes the Badger now, 4 hours.
Quote from: slorydn1 on December 28, 2016, 11:46:58 PM
I wonder how long it took to get across the lake by ferry, and if it wouldn't have been faster, even then, to just drive around it? Awesome picture, by the way!
The fact that the ferry went away probably answers that question for you.
The Lake Express takes 2 1/2 hours to cross Lake Michigan, certainly a time and hassle saver vs. driving through Chicago, but it doesn't come cheap.
http://www.lake-express.com/