Why do they us Coeur d Alene ID as a control city for I-90? Just use Spokane makes far more sense. Way bigger and only 40 miles farther anyways. I also think the use of St Cloud MN on I-94 doesn't make sense either. I would just use Fargo. Any other examples of control cities being used but probably shouldn't.
Assuming you meant "unnecessary" in the title. As for the two cities you cite, both are over 50K population and are major regional centers. I see nothing wrong with using them.
Quote from: froggie on June 23, 2016, 08:17:43 PM
Assuming you meant "unnecessary" in the title. As for the two cities you cite, both are over 50K population and are major regional centers. I see nothing wrong with using them.
Ok your entitled to your opinion that's perfectly fine. There is no right answer or wrong answer I just wanted to discuss how any one felt about control cities they personally thought should not be used.
Quote from: dvferyance on June 23, 2016, 08:12:40 PM
Why do they us Coeur d Alene ID as a control city for I-90? Just use Spokane makes far more sense. Way bigger and only 40 miles farther anyways. I also think the use of St Cloud MN on I-94 doesn't make sense either. I would just use Fargo. Any other examples of control cities being used but probably shouldn't.
The way states set up control cities goes beyond the minimums that FHWA declares on its documents. Illinois uses categories when it comes to this - primary and secondary. Primary ones are listed on through placards and freeway junctions while secondary ones are listed on signs directing to the freeway from local roads. Other states use next major city - definition of major is a matter of perspective.
"Denton" on I-35E and I-35W in the Dallas area; it's a moderately big city and regional center, yes, but the fact that Oklahoma City is not mentioned until the very edge of the metroplex is ... strange.
Quote from: -NCX75- on June 23, 2016, 11:19:22 PM
"Denton" on I-35E and I-35W in the Dallas area; it's a moderately big city and regional center, yes, but the fact that Oklahoma City is not mentioned until the very edge of the metroplex is ... strange.
Denton is where the two come together. It makes sense in that context.
Quote from: -NCX75- on June 23, 2016, 11:19:22 PM
"Denton" on I-35E and I-35W in the Dallas area; it's a moderately big city and regional center, yes, but the fact that Oklahoma City is not mentioned until the very edge of the metroplex is ... strange.
I agree.
Fort Collins on I-25 in Denver always bothered me as you have Cheyenne just a little further.
Then Easton, PA now on I-78 instead of Allentown which is PA's third largest city and Easton, although a good sized city, is not nowhere near it in population. Its left over from when US 22 was the main route between the states as the US highway crossed the state border there and actually goes through its center. I-78 does not even go near its core.
Mahwah on I-287 in NJ is one that should use Suffern for or even Albany, NY. One is a place where two interstates meet and the other is the first major city on another joining interstate.
Many of us here, although not exactly me, consider New York in Maryland on I-95 to be totally unnecessary as Wilmington or Philadelphia could be either or both used instead.
The ultimate..
I-180, Hennepin IL
West Virginia's have always bugged me. Huntington, Charleston, Beckley and Morgantown all make plenty of sense, as they are either large cities or interstate junctions (or both). But Parkersburg, Clarksburg, Fairmont, Lewisburg and Bluefield are, to me, nonsensical in the bigger scheme of things. I-77 north at Charleston should be Cambridge, Oh. (intersection of I-70) and south at Bluefield should be Wytheville, Va. (intersection of I-81). I-64 east at Beckley should be Lexington, Va. (intersection of I-81) if not Richmond, which is listed as a supplemental (as is Charlotte for I-77 where the routes split). I-79 north at Charleston should be Morgantown (intersection of I-68).
Quote from: inkyatari on June 24, 2016, 09:13:52 AM
The ultimate..
I-180, Hennepin IL
Where else does it go? You could use Peoria, but I-180 makes that annoying turn to the east to cross the Illinois River and end in.....Hennepin.
When I-39 was signed in WI, the Cascade split had its control cities changed to Wausau and Merrimac. The first is I-39's north end, the second is for WIS-78 SB. Portage and Stevens Point were posted on a secondary sign saying use Exit 108B. Word has it Portage officials bitched about it since Portage was the original cc when it was signed as WIS-78 NB (US-51 doesn't go to I-90/94 at Portage). Compromise? Add Portage to the lane sign nearly making the down arrow fall off California style. At 39's north end, they kept Point when 39 was added, but (appropriately) also added Madison.
Portage's size doesn't justify their name as a control point.
For 3-way interchanges, WisDOT has listed a local point and a major city. For WIS-29's expressway, the west end uses Chippewa Falls (nearby) and Green Bay (major city - though didn't they forget Wausau????), the East end uses Wausau (no Shawano though). This seems true for most part if the local destination had been there already. in Wausau, the 29-West interchange added Chippewa Falls to an already existing Abbotsford (no room before since 52 had been connected previously before the reconstruction.) The 29-East is a bit different, since the village of Weston is new (late 90s) but it got it's name placed on the signs. The collective signage has Chippewa Falls and Green Bay as the two cities.
Using Netcong and Delaware Water Gap as control "cities" west of Paterson on I-80 is unnecessary. While I-80 doesn't pass directly through them, using Morristown from Paterson to I-287, and Scranton/Wilkes Barre from I-287 to I-380, and Williamsport west of I-380 makes more sense. PA should just use Scranton/Wilkes Barre from I-180 to I-81, and New York east of I-81 (Stroudsburg is way too small). New Jersey should use Paterson from the Delaware River east.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 24, 2016, 08:52:21 AMThen Easton, PA now on I-78 instead of Allentown which is PA's third largest city and Easton, although a good sized city, is not nowhere near it in population. Its left over from when US 22 was the main route between the states as the US highway crossed the state border there and actually goes through its center. I-78 does not even go near its core.
:confused: I just did a quick check on GSV and I-78 eastbound is signed for Allentown up to and including the PA 100 interchange (Exit 49). East of the Lehigh Valley, most of the I-78 westbound signage either reads
Pennsylvania or
Penna for short or
Phillipsburg.
Poland signs the remote focal point on its highways. In case of highways reaching a border, they sign the border town along the entire length of a route. So that means Jędrzychowice, a village with a population of 670, is signed across the country from hundreds of miles away...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6vSYvwB.jpg&hash=2226de03e668d6bd2eb45a62b51a935354f03a32)
In the other direction, they sign Korczowa, population 660, located at the Ukrainian border.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FvW2Ty.jpg&hash=0d75ae0e1c220b49d161baafbfd20e8bf72a6a34)
Benson and Dunn in North Carolina. I get it, they'd rather sign the I-40/95 junction and so just used the two nearest towns, but they're weak.
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2016, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: inkyatari on June 24, 2016, 09:13:52 AM
The ultimate..
I-180, Hennepin IL
Where else does it go? You could use Peoria, but I-180 makes that annoying turn to the east to cross the Illinois River and end in.....Hennepin.
Point taken, but I guess my comment is more about the semi-unnecessary state of the highway in general. I am aware of the iron mill / defense contractor history of the highway.
Quote from: Chris on June 24, 2016, 01:24:59 PM
Poland signs the remote focal point on its highways. In case of highways reaching a border, they sign the border town along the entire length of a route. So that means Jędrzychowice, a village with a population of 670, is signed across the country from hundreds of miles away...
In the other direction, they sign Korczowa, population 660, located at the Ukrainian border.
I remember a photo with a sign of Korczowa 654 (406 for most forumers here) near Jedrzychowice or whatever is written. But the record-holders are the ends of DK8, Budzisko (at the Lithuanian border) and Kudowa-Slone (at the Czech one), there are signs over 800 km (500 miles) away!
Quote from: Chris on June 24, 2016, 01:24:59 PM
Poland signs the remote focal point on its highways. In case of highways reaching a border, they sign the border town along the entire length of a route. So that means Jędrzychowice, a village with a population of 670, is signed across the country from hundreds of miles away...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6vSYvwB.jpg&hash=2226de03e668d6bd2eb45a62b51a935354f03a32)
Yes, but mileage signs are a different beast from control cities. Is Jędrzychowice used on any guide signs at junctions any farther east than Gliwice? I can't find any on GSV. That is to say, it isn't used as a control city until less than 200 miles from the border, at which point it's reasonable to think more motorists would want guidance to the German border (although I still probably wouldn't use it until west of Wrocław).
Quote from: dvferyance on June 23, 2016, 08:12:40 PM
Why do they us Coeur d Alene ID as a control city for I-90? Just use Spokane makes far more sense. Way bigger and only 40 miles farther anyways. I also think the use of St Cloud MN on I-94 doesn't make sense either. I would just use Fargo. Any other examples of control cities being used but probably shouldn't.
Coeur d'Alene is there because "US 95" isn't a city.
I-10 in much of the southwest is pretty bad. California's "other Desert Cities", New Mexico's Lordsburg and Deming, and Texas's Fort Stockton (and random use of even more meaningless towns like Ozona and Sonora) are all terrible. Arizona is not included here since they do it properly, using only LA, Phoenix, Tucson, and El Paso.
At the split of US-70/US-70 Bypass (Future I-42) east of Goldsboro in NC, "TO La Grange" is used for westbound US-70 while Goldsboro is used for US-70 Bypass. Using La Grange is stupid because when you reach that split going westbound, you had already passed La Grange and it's NC-903 interchange. :pan: Goldsboro should be used for US-70 since it actually goes through Goldsboro and Smithfield should take Goldsboro's place on the US-70 Bypass sign.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi703.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww34%2Fslorydn1%2FRoad%2520Photos%2F20160530_123429_zpsrg5cbh4n.jpg&hash=d19819c10410bec003f9798aef3e647814616b80)
Goldsboro should also be used on the sign for US-70 West here since La Grange is east of this point.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi703.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww34%2Fslorydn1%2FRoad%2520Photos%2F20160530_164708_zpsnj2yeojr.jpg&hash=ddfe9d85a5153af11877c8ca2407022cd7cfbe08)
Quote from: dfwmapper on June 25, 2016, 06:19:04 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on June 23, 2016, 08:12:40 PM
Why do they us Coeur d Alene ID as a control city for I-90? Just use Spokane makes far more sense. Way bigger and only 40 miles farther anyways. I also think the use of St Cloud MN on I-94 doesn't make sense either. I would just use Fargo. Any other examples of control cities being used but probably shouldn't.
Coeur d'Alene is there because "US 95" isn't a city.
I-10 in much of the southwest is pretty bad. California's "other Desert Cities", New Mexico's Lordsburg and Deming, and Texas's Fort Stockton (and random use of even more meaningless towns like Ozona and Sonora) are all terrible. Arizona is not included here since they do it properly, using only LA, Phoenix, Tucson, and El Paso.
I've seen several things over the years referring to "the other Desert Cities" in reference to various other "cities" located in the general region around Indio, so maybe that sign isn't as stupid as it seems to most of us if it's a recognized expression out there?
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 24, 2016, 01:20:27 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 24, 2016, 08:52:21 AMThen Easton, PA now on I-78 instead of Allentown which is PA's third largest city and Easton, although a good sized city, is not nowhere near it in population. Its left over from when US 22 was the main route between the states as the US highway crossed the state border there and actually goes through its center. I-78 does not even go near its core.
:confused: I just did a quick check on GSV and I-78 eastbound is signed for Allentown up to and including the PA 100 interchange (Exit 49). East of the Lehigh Valley, most of the I-78 westbound signage either reads Pennsylvania or Penna for short or Phillipsburg.
I was referring to it in New Jersey. Yes PennDOT has "Allentown" from I-81 all the way to PA 100. For years NJDOT did not use Easton at all until the mid 1990's on I-287's updated signs. Sure a few existed on the 1986 opened Watchung Reservation stretch as one is on CR 527 in Summit and the other on Diamond Hill Road SB in Berkley Heights, but that was it as most ramps to I-78 never used control cities at all. NJ 31 always, and still has from last visit, used Phillipsburg.
The 1990 opening of I-78 into PA from NJ yes uses Penna for the control city for whatever reason. So its really more mixed up than using Easton over Allentown.
Anyway, from I-287 it should be now Allentown or revert back to Clinton as it was before 1994 circa. Clinton and Phillipsburg I have no quarrels with, but in Union County the Easton signs should be changed to "Clinton" and those annoying "Springfield" signs on the Garden State Parkway should be either Clinton or heck even use Allentown from there.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2016, 10:21:24 PM
I've seen several things over the years referring to "the other Desert Cities" in reference to various other "cities" located in the general region around Indio, so maybe that sign isn't as stupid as it seems to most of us if it's a recognized expression out there?
The region is primarily referred to as the Coachella Valley, or if you're in LA, "the desert". I've never heard the phrase "other desert cities" used in any context that isn't a reference to the signs. In any case, it doesn't start appearing as a control city until the CA 111 exit in Palm Springs, and it comes beneath Indio on the sign, so whatever the "other" cities are, they would have to be beyond Indio.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 26, 2016, 05:06:21 PMFor years NJDOT did not use Easton at all until the mid 1990's on I-287's updated signs. Sure a few existed on the 1986 opened Watchung Reservation stretch as one is on CR 527 in Summit and the other on Diamond Hill Road SB in Berkley Heights, but that was it as most ramps to I-78 never used control cities at all. NJ 31 always, and still has from last visit, used Phillipsburg.
The 1990 opening of I-78 into PA from NJ yes uses Penna for the control city for whatever reason. So its really more mixed up than using Easton over Allentown.
Anyway, from I-287 it should be now Allentown or revert back to Clinton as it was before 1994 circa. Clinton and Phillipsburg I have no quarrels with, but in Union County the Easton signs should be changed to "Clinton" and those annoying "Springfield" signs on the Garden State Parkway should be either Clinton or heck even use Allentown from there.
Interestingly, while the I-78 westbound ramp signage from I-287 list
Easton, Pa; the pull-through BGS along I-78 westbound at the same interchange lists
Phillipsburg (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6435767,-74.6336607,3a,75y,252.07h,76.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sl-vWQyYTxjPTV5VpBVdO7Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (assuming the BGS wasn't changed since the last GSV).
Quote from: roadman65 on June 24, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
Fort Collins on I-25 in Denver always bothered me as you have Cheyenne just a little further.
Fort Collins is a major college town as well as being nearly three times as large as Cheyenne.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 28, 2016, 02:30:04 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on June 24, 2016, 08:52:21 AM
Fort Collins on I-25 in Denver always bothered me as you have Cheyenne just a little further.
Fort Collins is a major college town as well as being nearly three times as large as Cheyenne.
I have no problem with using it for the NB direction. However I didn't like Wyoming replacing Denver with Fort Collins for the SB direction.
Quote from: hbelkins on June 24, 2016, 09:30:56 AM
West Virginia's have always bugged me. Huntington, Charleston, Beckley and Morgantown all make plenty of sense, as they are either large cities or interstate junctions (or both). But Parkersburg, Clarksburg, Fairmont, Lewisburg and Bluefield are, to me, nonsensical in the bigger scheme of things. I-77 north at Charleston should be Cambridge, Oh. (intersection of I-70) and south at Bluefield should be Wytheville, Va. (intersection of I-81). I-64 east at Beckley should be Lexington, Va. (intersection of I-81) if not Richmond, which is listed as a supplemental (as is Charlotte for I-77 where the routes split). I-79 north at Charleston should be Morgantown (intersection of I-68).
Parkersburg is a lot bigger than Cambridge. Everything else though I agree with.
In big Spanish cities like Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Seville... sometimes, freeway signs don't show control cities; but the words "Todas direcciones" which means "all directions". This happens specially in Madrid, where you can find redundant signs because of that.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaEAI7cj.png&hash=cbea384c4a1bc2aba655a99c743ff68577b5dc84)
Who needs control cities when you can drive everywhere?
Quote from: dvferyance on June 28, 2016, 11:30:21 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on June 24, 2016, 09:30:56 AM
West Virginia's have always bugged me. Huntington, Charleston, Beckley and Morgantown all make plenty of sense, as they are either large cities or interstate junctions (or both). But Parkersburg, Clarksburg, Fairmont, Lewisburg and Bluefield are, to me, nonsensical in the bigger scheme of things. I-77 north at Charleston should be Cambridge, Oh. (intersection of I-70) and south at Bluefield should be Wytheville, Va. (intersection of I-81). I-64 east at Beckley should be Lexington, Va. (intersection of I-81) if not Richmond, which is listed as a supplemental (as is Charlotte for I-77 where the routes split). I-79 north at Charleston should be Morgantown (intersection of I-68).
Parkersburg is a lot bigger than Cambridge. Everything else though I agree with.
So are Bluefield, Clarksburg, Fairmont and (I believe) Lewisburg. The reason I picked Cambridge is because it's an interstate crossroads, like Wytheville or Washington, Pa. If not for the presence of I-70 making Washington an interstate junction, I'd sign Pittsburgh on I-79 north of Morgantown.
Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW1108D8.png&hash=26e511ba6cdeb60a9f4a4b200e41be23ece204d0)
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 29, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW1108D8.png&hash=26e511ba6cdeb60a9f4a4b200e41be23ece204d0)
I'm more curious as towards why this signage completely ignores listing MA 28; 28 northbound is accessible via Exit 3 and 28 southbound becomes the through-highway just south of this interchange.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 30, 2016, 04:01:07 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 29, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW1108D8.png&hash=26e511ba6cdeb60a9f4a4b200e41be23ece204d0)
I'm more curious as towards why this signage completely ignores listing MA 28; 28 northbound is accessible via Exit 3 and 28 southbound becomes the through-highway just south of this interchange.
US 6 and MA 28 are co-signed through eastern Wareham, though. Exit 2 is signed for both MA 28 and US 6. Honestly though, who in their right mind is going to get off at exit 3 on 25
South to get onto 28
North? 25 was built to bypass 28 and 6. So I'm guessing 28 is not listed on exit 3 so that vacation traffic doesn't start using it to get to Wareham.
Quote from: Chris on June 24, 2016, 01:24:59 PM
Poland signs the remote focal point on its highways. In case of highways reaching a border, they sign the border town along the entire length of a route. So that means Jędrzychowice, a village with a population of 670, is signed across the country from hundreds of miles away...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6vSYvwB.jpg&hash=2226de03e668d6bd2eb45a62b51a935354f03a32)
Why not just use the Polish language words for "International Border," or even just the PL/D Euroband Ovals they already have up there? That's kind of like "State Line" used as a "control city" on mileage signs here in the US.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 30, 2016, 04:40:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 30, 2016, 04:01:07 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 29, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW1108D8.png&hash=26e511ba6cdeb60a9f4a4b200e41be23ece204d0)
I'm more curious as towards why this signage completely ignores listing MA 28; 28 northbound is accessible via Exit 3 and 28 southbound becomes the through-highway just south of this interchange.
US 6 and MA 28 are co-signed through eastern Wareham, though. Exit 2 is signed for both MA 28 and US 6. Honestly though, who in their right mind is going to get off at exit 3 on 25 South to get onto 28 North? 25 was built to bypass 28 and 6. So I'm guessing 28 is not listed on exit 3 so that vacation traffic doesn't start using it to get to Wareham.
That and as far as the pull through, the general public likely assumes that the Bridge is 25 so signing 28 only could be confusing. Early in my roadgeeking days I was not even aware that 25 did not cross the bridge, I assumed that 25 and 28 were at least concurrent over the bridge, and I assume most of the general population believes this.
Quote from: AMLNet49 on June 30, 2016, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 30, 2016, 04:40:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 30, 2016, 04:01:07 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 29, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW1108D8.png&hash=26e511ba6cdeb60a9f4a4b200e41be23ece204d0)
I'm more curious as towards why this signage completely ignores listing MA 28; 28 northbound is accessible via Exit 3 and 28 southbound becomes the through-highway just south of this interchange.
US 6 and MA 28 are co-signed through eastern Wareham, though. Exit 2 is signed for both MA 28 and US 6. Honestly though, who in their right mind is going to get off at exit 3 on 25 South to get onto 28 North? 25 was built to bypass 28 and 6. So I'm guessing 28 is not listed on exit 3 so that vacation traffic doesn't start using it to get to Wareham.
That and as far as the pull through, the general public likely assumes that the Bridge is 25 so signing 28 only could be confusing. Early in my roadgeeking days I was not even aware that 25 did not cross the bridge, I assumed that 25 and 28 were at least concurrent over the bridge, and I assume most of the general population believes this.
I think it ends/begins at the 28 ramps on/off the Bourne Bridge. Mileage counts up from the end of I-495 so I can't say for sure. The best thing to do would be to re-number MA 25 as MA 495.
When I was little I actually thought MA 25 went all the way down MacArthur Blvd.
Quote from: tckma on June 30, 2016, 05:59:21 PM
Quote from: Chris on June 24, 2016, 01:24:59 PM
Poland signs the remote focal point on its highways. In case of highways reaching a border, they sign the border town along the entire length of a route. So that means Jędrzychowice, a village with a population of 670, is signed across the country from hundreds of miles away...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6vSYvwB.jpg&hash=2226de03e668d6bd2eb45a62b51a935354f03a32)
Why not just use the Polish language words for "International Border," or even just the PL/D Euroband Ovals they already have up there? That's kind of like "State Line" used as a "control city" on mileage signs here in the US.
For example, "Indiana" shows up around here often as one of these lines. It's the distance to the Illinois/Indiana state line. Poland could simply use the "D" or Polish for "Germany".
And if they wanted to sign the last town before the border, why they sign Jedrzychowice or whatever is written (And pronounced, Polish language is weird, they have a city that is written Lodz but pronounced 'Woodge') when they could sign the nearby, larger Zgorzelec?
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 30, 2016, 09:40:09 PM
Quote from: AMLNet49 on June 30, 2016, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 30, 2016, 04:40:59 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 30, 2016, 04:01:07 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 29, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW1108D8.png&hash=26e511ba6cdeb60a9f4a4b200e41be23ece204d0)
I'm more curious as towards why this signage completely ignores listing MA 28; 28 northbound is accessible via Exit 3 and 28 southbound becomes the through-highway just south of this interchange.
US 6 and MA 28 are co-signed through eastern Wareham, though. Exit 2 is signed for both MA 28 and US 6. Honestly though, who in their right mind is going to get off at exit 3 on 25 South to get onto 28 North? 25 was built to bypass 28 and 6. So I'm guessing 28 is not listed on exit 3 so that vacation traffic doesn't start using it to get to Wareham.
That and as far as the pull through, the general public likely assumes that the Bridge is 25 so signing 28 only could be confusing. Early in my roadgeeking days I was not even aware that 25 did not cross the bridge, I assumed that 25 and 28 were at least concurrent over the bridge, and I assume most of the general population believes this.
I think it ends/begins at the 28 ramps on/off the Bourne Bridge. Mileage counts up from the end of I-495 so I can't say for sure. The best thing to do would be to re-number MA 25 as MA 495.
When I was little I actually thought MA 25 went all the way down MacArthur Blvd.
The above-interchange and the
blending into the Bourne Bridge has only existed for about 27-28 years. Previously, MA 25 used to end at US 6/MA 28 (current Exit 2) just east of I-195/495. Once upon a time, MA 25 was planned to go as far as Plymouth and end at MA 3.
While signing Exit 3 as
28 NORTH (along w/US 6) could cause
some confusion; not signing it as 28
at all, IMHO, is misleading... especially since 28 becomes the highway itself leading to the Bourne Bridge.
I would've definitely added a
28 SOUTH for the pull-through BGS but just added a MA 28 shield to the Exit 3 BGS w/no direction cardinal. So what if US 6 & MA 28 are already signed at Exit 2; both interchanges are about 7 miles away from each other.
BTW, here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7563478,-70.5939455,3a,75y,356.42h,80.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skHBxE3LQgXsOjxPgUFbhIQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1) how the interchange is signed from the opposite direction.
Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bourne,+MA/@41.7650302,-70.6708908,3a,75y,293.38h,74.31t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sThFKX5gnJYvk3DZL2MlrbQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DThFKX5gnJYvk3DZL2MlrbQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D62.640846%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e4cecdb496753b:0x7e64c696883775e7!8m2!3d41.7412773!4d-70.5989325!6m1!1e1) how Exit 2 is signed from 25 westbound.
Exit 2 from 25 eastbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7692284,-70.6858055,3a,75y,99.06h,81.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXi005VSJTvWsIRBG-CPf0g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
This one on I-95 NB in CT has always grinded my gears.... why didn't they use Worcester instead of Plainfield for I-395 NB? Once you get past Norwich on I-395, the control city becomes Worcester (except from CT 2 EB to I-395 NB, where Providence is used). There's no Plainfield control city mentioned at all, until you see the BGSs for the Plainfield exits. The old signs at this location also featured Plainfield, with "Mass Tpke/Worcester" on a secondary sign. That secondary sign was not replaced when this area got new signage in 2000.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5689/21925408271_8059c01a6e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zpts1x)95NB-Exit76 (https://flic.kr/p/zpts1x) by Jay Hogan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/), on Flickr
Quote from: shadyjay on July 02, 2016, 04:29:53 PM
This one on I-95 NB in CT has always grinded my gears.... why didn't they use Worcester instead of Plainfield for I-395 NB? Once you get past Norwich on I-395, the control city becomes Worcester (except from CT 2 EB to I-395 NB, where Providence is used). There's no Plainfield control city mentioned at all, until you see the BGSs for the Plainfield exits. The old signs at this location also featured Plainfield, with "Mass Tpke/Worcester" on a secondary sign. That secondary sign was not replaced when this area got new signage in 2000.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5689/21925408271_8059c01a6e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zpts1x)95NB-Exit76 (https://flic.kr/p/zpts1x) by Jay Hogan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/), on Flickr
Well, technically I-395 ends in Auburn at I-290.
I, for one, have never figured out why I-84 westbound from Portland uses Ontario as a far-off control city (after more reasonable ones like The Dalles and Pendleton). Boise's another 50 miles, sure, but it's also 20 times bigger, not to mention a state capital, and a lot of the long haul traffic ends up there. Or Salt Lake, but that's unreasonably far.
Another one that irks me is I-5 southbound from Portland uses Salem as a control city, rather than Eugene, but I-5 northbound from Eugene skips Salem and uses Portland. I can understand why you'd use Salem or why you'd skip it, but not why you'd do both.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 02, 2016, 04:43:03 PM
Quote from: shadyjay on July 02, 2016, 04:29:53 PM
This one on I-95 NB in CT has always grinded my gears.... why didn't they use Worcester instead of Plainfield for I-395 NB? Once you get past Norwich on I-395, the control city becomes Worcester (except from CT 2 EB to I-395 NB, where Providence is used). There's no Plainfield control city mentioned at all, until you see the BGSs for the Plainfield exits. The old signs at this location also featured Plainfield, with "Mass Tpke/Worcester" on a secondary sign. That secondary sign was not replaced when this area got new signage in 2000.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5689/21925408271_8059c01a6e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zpts1x)95NB-Exit76 (https://flic.kr/p/zpts1x) by Jay Hogan (https://www.flickr.com/photos/shadyjay/), on Flickr
Well, technically I-395 ends in Auburn at I-290.
And I-84 ends well short of Boston but that doesn't stop the CT DOT from signing Boston as a control city on I-84
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2016, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: inkyatari on June 24, 2016, 09:13:52 AM
The ultimate..
I-180, Hennepin IL
Where else does it go? You could use Peoria, but I-180 makes that annoying turn to the east to cross the Illinois River and end in.....Hennepin.
And there are signs on 80 that say use 180 to Peoria. Just saying. Hennepin is fine.
Quote from: peperodriguez2710 on June 29, 2016, 07:37:01 AM
In big Spanish cities like Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Seville... sometimes, freeway signs don't show control cities; but the words "Todas direcciones" which means "all directions". This happens specially in Madrid, where you can find redundant signs because of that.
Who needs control cities when you can drive everywhere?
At least is better than when they write the same city twice.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 04, 2016, 02:13:10 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2016, 09:48:31 AM
Quote from: inkyatari on June 24, 2016, 09:13:52 AM
The ultimate..
I-180, Hennepin IL
Where else does it go? You could use Peoria, but I-180 makes that annoying turn to the east to cross the Illinois River and end in.....Hennepin.
And there are signs on 80 that say use 180 to Peoria. Just saying. Hennepin is fine.
Yes...
https://goo.gl/maps/9e9W4RAdLpw
For some reason i find signing "Camden" on 295 south in Trenton is a bit of a misnomer. 295 does not actually enter Camden, nor does it enter Trenton. But Trenton makes sense to me, Camden doesn't. I'd sign it as either Delaware, or Wilmington DE, or Deptford NJ. Switching to the Delaware ones once you get past I76.
Quote from: opspe on July 02, 2016, 11:21:10 PM
I, for one, have never figured out why I-84 westbound from Portland uses Ontario as a far-off control city (after more reasonable ones like The Dalles and Pendleton). Boise's another 50 miles, sure, but it's also 20 times bigger, not to mention a state capital, and a lot of the long haul traffic ends up there. Or Salt Lake, but that's unreasonably far.
Another one that irks me is I-5 southbound from Portland uses Salem as a control city, rather than Eugene, but I-5 northbound from Eugene skips Salem and uses Portland. I can understand why you'd use Salem or why you'd skip it, but not why you'd do both.
That must have changed because when I was there in 2007 the control city was The Dalles. I have no problem with using Salem after all it's the state capitol. I believe Portland is used as the NB control city as far south as Redding CA while Oregon never uses that. Only Yreka is used in Oregon just before California which doesn't make sense. I would use Redding after Medford and not use Ashland either. I would probably not use Roseburg as well.
At the MEX 57 / MEX 40D interchange in Coahuila they use Ramos Arizpe as the control city for southbound 57. What's wrong with using Saltillo or even Matehuala as the control city? I had never even heard of Ramos Arizpe before and it's not even listed in my road atlas.
https://goo.gl/maps/agjdccVdovQ2
Same deal a few hundred feet south on MEX 57.
https://goo.gl/maps/7HK47x2RkJK2
I-505 uses Winters (population about 6000) as a control city, where I feel it'd make more sense to simply use San Francisco, as most drivers heading south on I-5 and exiting onto I-505 are SF bound.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on July 06, 2016, 11:18:28 AM
I-505 uses Winters (population about 6000) as a control city, where I feel it'd make more sense to simply use San Francisco, as most drivers heading south on I-5 and exiting onto I-505 are SF bound.
Looking at the current signs using GMSV, exit signs for I-505 use both Winters and San Francisco as control cities. I have no problem with that (although the layout of both the I-505 exit and I-5 pull through signs leave much to be desired... might take this gantry to the redesign thread).
Quote from: SteveG1988 on July 05, 2016, 02:11:09 PM
For some reason i find signing "Camden" on 295 south in Trenton is a bit of a misnomer. 295 does not actually enter Camden, nor does it enter Trenton. But Trenton makes sense to me, Camden doesn't. I'd sign it as either Delaware, or Wilmington DE, or Deptford NJ. Switching to the Delaware ones once you get past I76.
I think it depends at which junction though. If you are in the Trenton area, I can see using Camden on an opposing sign that says Philadelphia. But certainly south of I-76 I would use the Delaware Memorial Bridge or Wilmington.
Quote from: US 41 on July 05, 2016, 09:15:55 PM
At the MEX 57 / MEX 40D interchange in Coahuila they use Ramos Arizpe as the control city for southbound 57. What's wrong with using Saltillo or even Matehuala as the control city? I had never even heard of Ramos Arizpe before and it's not even listed in my road atlas.
https://goo.gl/maps/agjdccVdovQ2
Same deal a few hundred feet south on MEX 57.
https://goo.gl/maps/7HK47x2RkJK2
I've driven through that junction eight times (although on 40, not 57), so let me do some explaining.
Until October 2010, that junction did not exist because that toll road did not exist. The older junction is 4 km down the road at the Libre. If you notice,
signs there (https://goo.gl/maps/jj72hr6i8Lp) do indeed say SALTILLO. Back before the construction of the Libramiento Norponiente de Saltillo, that was basically the only way to get to Saltillo from where you dropped the pegman.
You might not have heard of Ramos Arizpe and it might not be listed on your atlas (I'm guessing you're looking at a one- or two-page map of the whole country rather than an actual Mexican atlas), but it's a city of 75,000 people and the principal suburb of Saltillo; of the 38 municipios (counties) in Coahuila, Ramos Arizpe is the 8
th most populous. It's certainly a well-known location in that region.
As to why the junction with the newer toll road lists Ramos Arizpe instead of Saltillo, I can only guess. But I think the most likely explanation is that, continuing straight ahead, the next junction will take you to either Ramos Arizpe
or Saltillo. However, turning at this first junction, it is still possible to reach Saltillo (not signed, but a reasonable way of reaching the southern half of the city) but
not Ramos Arizpe. Or, to put it another way, traffic heading to Ramos Arizpe is unlikely to want to
pay a toll in order to go 6 miles out of their way by overshooting their destination and then doubling back (https://goo.gl/maps/ev819JjHru12), and so they are advised to
continue straight instead (https://goo.gl/maps/i6CovsSLDrx).
I think the curious thing is not actually that they used Ramos Arizpe instead of Saltillo, but rather why they didn't just use Matehuala instead, which you also suggested in your comment. That would certainly be the more "normal" Mexican way of doing things. The above explanation might be the reason, though: to specifically call out Ramos Arizpe traffic before switching control cities.
Quote from: dfwmapper on June 27, 2016, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2016, 10:21:24 PM
I've seen several things over the years referring to "the other Desert Cities" in reference to various other "cities" located in the general region around Indio, so maybe that sign isn't as stupid as it seems to most of us if it's a recognized expression out there?
The region is primarily referred to as the Coachella Valley, or if you're in LA, "the desert". I've never heard the phrase "other desert cities" used in any context that isn't a reference to the signs. In any case, it doesn't start appearing as a control city until the CA 111 exit in Palm Springs, and it comes beneath Indio on the sign, so whatever the "other" cities are, they would have to be beyond Indio.
"Other desert cities" is a reference to the other cities of the Coachella Valley: Cathedral City, Palm Desert, La Quinta, etc. There's only one sign with those words on it and it's at the EB I-10 junction with CA-111 which splits off to head for Palm Springs. The control city for the area is Indio, as marked on that sign as well as all the eastbound on-ramps in the area.
Now if you wanna talk about weird control cities in Southern California, there's "Beach Cities" on WB CA-91, Pasadena on NB I-710 (even though there's an infamous gap in the way), and Los Angeles/Riverside on SB I-215 in San Bernardino for some reason.
In Georgia, I-59 SB uses Birmingham. Once the route crosses into Alabama, ALDOT uses Gadsden. That one has never made sense.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 04, 2016, 02:13:10 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 24, 2016, 09:48:31 AM
Where else does it go? You could use Peoria, but I-180 makes that annoying turn to the east to cross the Illinois River and end in.....Hennepin.
And there are signs on 80 that say use 180 to Peoria. Just saying. Hennepin is fine.
It could be signed 'To [IL 29 shield]/Peoria" as is done for EB I-80 on WB I-88: Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5360609,-90.3265684,3a,75y,270.54h,88.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUZkyETKLElGS3Wu6KUHC1A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
Quote from: djsekani on July 09, 2016, 05:08:56 PM
"Other desert cities" is a reference to the other cities of the Coachella Valley: Cathedral City, Palm Desert, La Quinta, etc. There's only one sign with those words on it and it's at the EB I-10 junction with CA-111 which splits off to head for Palm Springs. The control city for the area is Indio, as marked on that sign as well as all the eastbound on-ramps in the area.
Then it ought to be other Desert Cities/Indio, not the other way around. Still dumb. Indio/Phoenix would be what most anyone but Caltrans would use.
QuoteNow if you wanna talk about weird control cities in Southern California, there's "Beach Cities" on WB CA-91, Pasadena on NB I-710 (even though there's an infamous gap in the way), and Los Angeles/Riverside on SB I-215 in San Bernardino for some reason.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Beach Cities, especially with CA 91 having been cut back to end at I-105.
Where is LA/Riverside used as a control city on SB I-215? I don't think I've ever seen LA, only Riverside, but I can't say I've ever spent much time on I-215 except for the overlap with CA 60.
Quote from: djsekani on July 09, 2016, 05:08:56 PM
Quote from: dfwmapper on June 27, 2016, 08:56:34 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 25, 2016, 10:21:24 PM
I've seen several things over the years referring to "the other Desert Cities" in reference to various other "cities" located in the general region around Indio, so maybe that sign isn't as stupid as it seems to most of us if it's a recognized expression out there?
The region is primarily referred to as the Coachella Valley, or if you're in LA, "the desert". I've never heard the phrase "other desert cities" used in any context that isn't a reference to the signs. In any case, it doesn't start appearing as a control city until the CA 111 exit in Palm Springs, and it comes beneath Indio on the sign, so whatever the "other" cities are, they would have to be beyond Indio.
"Other desert cities" is a reference to the other cities of the Coachella Valley: Cathedral City, Palm Desert, La Quinta, etc. There's only one sign with those words on it and it's at the EB I-10 junction with CA-111 which splits off to head for Palm Springs. The control city for the area is Indio, as marked on that sign as well as all the eastbound on-ramps in the area.
Now if you wanna talk about weird control cities in Southern California, there's "Beach Cities" on WB CA-91, Pasadena on NB I-710 (even though there's an infamous gap in the way), and Los Angeles/Riverside on SB I-215 in San Bernardino for some reason.
Finally someone isn't putting down the "Other Desert Cities" Sign. I think it refers to the Coachella Valley Cities and might be going back to when US 99 ran along the now I-10, so it includes Imperial Valley, El Centro ect.
I think they sign 215 South for Los Angeles and Riverside because they do it along 210 West or they did along 30 west for 215 South partially for Big Bear Traffic I'm guessing, and also the San Bernardino Freeway transfers from the 215 to the 10. That's my guess anyways.
The US 67-167 freeway in central Arkansas lists St. Louis as a control city, and does so on several signs between Jacksonville and Searcy. Why St. Louis when there is Newport and Walnut Ridge (that section to be opened up soon)? I can see St Louis being mentioned ONCE but only once (listed 2-3 times). The control cities depicted on that freeway leave a lot to be desired. Oh and the 4 lane section stops LONG before reaching St. Louis.
Why is Fort Smith, AR used in Missouri for I-49 South of Joplin when the cities of NW Arkansas now are big enough to warrant either Bentonville, Fayetteville, or one of the other big ones near there?
Futhermore, Arkansas does not use "Joplin" from Fort Smith and actually use one of the big NW Arkansas cities.
Quote from: dfwmapper on July 10, 2016, 12:27:13 AM
Where is LA/Riverside used as a control city on SB I-215? I don't think I've ever seen LA, only Riverside, but I can't say I've ever spent much time on I-215 except for the overlap with CA 60.
Here's a street view from the westbound 210. (https://goo.gl/maps/3Px98HKyNtr) This one is just really weird to me since you can get to Los Angeles going straight ahead on the 210, but I guess they want everyone to take the 215 south to the 10 or 60 freeways. Also this is the only place on the 215 where I've seen Los Angeles as a control city.
I went to St Louis last weekend and noticed the control city often on I-55 SB south of Springfield was East St Louis. This is probably the most unnecessary control city of all.
The control city on EB I-96 in Detroit is "Bridge to Canada." Technically it does end at the Ambassador Bridge going into Windsor, Ontario while cosigned with I-75.
Quote from: djsekani on July 12, 2016, 02:52:05 AM
Quote from: dfwmapper on July 10, 2016, 12:27:13 AM
Where is LA/Riverside used as a control city on SB I-215? I don't think I've ever seen LA, only Riverside, but I can't say I've ever spent much time on I-215 except for the overlap with CA 60.
Here's a street view from the westbound 210. (https://goo.gl/maps/3Px98HKyNtr) This one is just really weird to me since you can get to Los Angeles going straight ahead on the 210, but I guess they want everyone to take the 215 south to the 10 or 60 freeways. Also this is the only place on the 215 where I've seen Los Angeles as a control city.
My guess is that this is a relic from when the Route 30 freeway (now part of the completed 210) only extended from just west of 215 to Redlands; in that case, the nearest east-west route at the time back to LA was indeed 215 south to 10 west. This was true even ca. 2001:
https://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/us_2001/california_ref_2001.pdf
Not sure if this really counts as "unnecessary" but I've always found it interesting that Peoria is used as the WB control city on I-74 in Indiana. Personally, I love seeing all the Peorias on the local road BGS's since I was born and raised there. But, really, it seems Indiana would prefer to use in-state Crawfordsville or even Danville IL (twice the size of Crawfordsville). And, to make it even more intriguing, Illinois, Peoria's own state, uses Danville, Champaign, and Bloomington as control cities rather than Peoria (on local roads).
Memphis is an interesting control city for SB I-57 in Illinois, but I guess it makes more sense than Sikeston or Cairo (I mean for the BGS's on intersecting interstates, not the BGSs on smaller highways that do indeed use smaller local towns such as Cairo).
On a semi-related note, growing up in Illinois I always thought it was "unecessary" to include both East St Louis and St Louis on mileage signs on SB I-55. (Yes, I know, those aren't the same as control cities, but it certainly seems to fit the "unnecessary" aspect of this discussion.)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/gallery/13639_12_07_16_9_53_36.jpeg)
Peoria always puzzled me, as well, because there are several other decent-sized burgs in Illinois along I-74 that serve as major interstate junctions. I mean, if West Virginia can use Washington, Pa. instead of Pittsburgh, then surely Indiana can use something closer than Peoria.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2016, 03:22:27 PM
Peoria always puzzled me, as well, because there are several other decent-sized burgs in Illinois along I-74 that serve as major interstate junctions. I mean, if West Virginia can use Washington, Pa. instead of Pittsburgh, then surely Indiana can use something closer than Peoria.
Danville is too small but I would be just fine if they used Champaign though I can see why they use Peoria something more significant. Keep in mind though IDOT uses Indianapolis in the EB direction at Peoria so I guess it keeps it consistent.
Quote from: dvferyance on July 13, 2016, 03:57:17 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 13, 2016, 03:22:27 PM
Peoria always puzzled me, as well, because there are several other decent-sized burgs in Illinois along I-74 that serve as major interstate junctions. I mean, if West Virginia can use Washington, Pa. instead of Pittsburgh, then surely Indiana can use something closer than Peoria.
Danville is too small but I would be just fine if they used Champaign though I can see why they use Peoria something more significant. Keep in mind though IDOT uses Indianapolis in the EB direction at Peoria so I guess it keeps it consistent.
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.
Quote from: dvferyance on July 12, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
I went to St Louis last weekend and noticed the control city often on I-55 SB south of Springfield was East St Louis. This is probably the most unnecessary control city of all.
It's a secondary control. IDOT (as I've said many, many times before) uses secondary and primary controls. St Louis is the primary control from Chicago southward. The secondary controls are Joliet, Bloomington, Springfield, and East St Louis.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.
Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.
Quote from: Brandon on July 14, 2016, 10:05:58 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on July 12, 2016, 05:53:50 PM
I went to St Louis last weekend and noticed the control city often on I-55 SB south of Springfield was East St Louis. This is probably the most unnecessary control city of all.
It's a secondary control. IDOT (as I've said many, many times before) uses secondary and primary controls. St Louis is the primary control from Chicago southward. The secondary controls are Joliet, Bloomington, Springfield, and East St Louis.
They do the same thing on I-70 in Illinois. Indianapolis and St Louis are the primary controls, while Terre Haute, Effingham, and E. St. Louis are the secondary control cities. On I-70 between Indianapolis and the IL state line, Indianapolis and St Louis are the only two cites ever mentioned as control cities. Illinois does a better job of advertising Terre Haute than Indiana does which is sad in my opinion.
Quote from: dvferyance on July 05, 2016, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: opspe on July 02, 2016, 11:21:10 PM
I, for one, have never figured out why I-84 westbound from Portland uses Ontario as a far-off control city (after more reasonable ones like The Dalles and Pendleton). Boise's another 50 miles, sure, but it's also 20 times bigger, not to mention a state capital, and a lot of the long haul traffic ends up there. Or Salt Lake, but that's unreasonably far.
Another one that irks me is I-5 southbound from Portland uses Salem as a control city, rather than Eugene, but I-5 northbound from Eugene skips Salem and uses Portland. I can understand why you'd use Salem or why you'd skip it, but not why you'd do both.
That must have changed because when I was there in 2007 the control city was The Dalles. I have no problem with using Salem after all it's the state capitol. I believe Portland is used as the NB control city as far south as Redding CA while Oregon never uses that. Only Yreka is used in Oregon just before California which doesn't make sense. I would use Redding after Medford and not use Ashland either. I would probably not use Roseburg as well.
How about Oregon using Hermiston and Umatilla as the control cities on I-82 instead of the Tri-Cities and Seattle?
I've always been a bit baffled why I-405 NB uses "Sacramento" as a control city. I mean, it makes sense in that I-405 flows onto I-5, which in turn goes to Sacramento, but it seems like a city actually reachable via the 405 would make more sense. Perhaps San Fernando, Sylmar? (And of course, the entire 405 is also the "San Diego Freeway," another odd choice). I believe the SB control city in the valley is Santa Monica, a much better choice than Sacramento.
US-395 still has "San Diego" as a control city in the High Desert area, but this is a holdover from the days when it did reach the city.
Quote from: hbelkins on July 14, 2016, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.
Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.
Or as Illinois itself does for Nashville IL.
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2016, 01:50:25 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 14, 2016, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.
Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.
Or as Illinois itself does for Nashville IL.
Or as Virginia does for Rocky Mount, NC on I-95.
Quote from: slorydn1 on July 15, 2016, 04:21:44 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2016, 01:50:25 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 14, 2016, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.
Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.
Or as Illinois itself does for Nashville IL.
Or as Virginia does for Rocky Mount, NC on I-95.
Or as West Virginia does for Roanoke, VA on I-81.
Quote from: noelbotevera on July 15, 2016, 04:42:08 PM
Or as West Virginia does for Roanoke, VA on I-81.
West Virginia tends to do that on all its interstates for out-of-state destinations.
Quote from: slorydn1 on July 15, 2016, 04:21:44 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2016, 01:50:25 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 14, 2016, 10:41:07 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 14, 2016, 09:06:09 PM
It could use Champaign. It couldn't use Bloomington or Danville because Indiana has cities called that.
Danville wouldn't make any sense, as it's not a major interstate junction. But they could always tack the state name on the end, like Tennessee does for Jackson, Miss., in the Memphis area, to distinguish it from Jackson, Tenn.
Or as Illinois itself does for Nashville IL.
Or as Virginia does for Rocky Mount, NC on I-95.
Virginia also uses "Charlotte NC" for I-77 South at both I-81/I-77 splits in Wytheville and Fort Chiswell, presumably to distinguish Charlotte from Charlottesville.
Don't know why I didn't think of it earlier, but another unneccessary control city is Kenly in NC. It's used as one of the control cities (the other being Goldsboro) for I-795 southbound where I-795 leaves US-264 in Wilson, heading south towards Goldsboro, since the US-301 (which goes to Kenly) exit on I-795 is close by the I-795/US-264 split.
It makes no sense to use Kenly for I-795 since almost everybody on eastbound US-264 going to Kenly would simply take I-95 South. The I-795 BGS at the split should read:
I-795 South
Goldsboro
Wilmington
I-795/US-117 serves as a shortcut to Wilmington for tourists and truck traffic via a connection to I-40 near Faison.
Quote from: TheStranger on July 12, 2016, 08:27:28 PM
Quote from: djsekani on July 12, 2016, 02:52:05 AM
Quote from: dfwmapper on July 10, 2016, 12:27:13 AM
Where is LA/Riverside used as a control city on SB I-215? I don't think I've ever seen LA, only Riverside, but I can't say I've ever spent much time on I-215 except for the overlap with CA 60.
Here's a street view from the westbound 210. (https://goo.gl/maps/3Px98HKyNtr) This one is just really weird to me since you can get to Los Angeles going straight ahead on the 210, but I guess they want everyone to take the 215 south to the 10 or 60 freeways. Also this is the only place on the 215 where I've seen Los Angeles as a control city.
My guess is that this is a relic from when the Route 30 freeway (now part of the completed 210) only extended from just west of 215 to Redlands; in that case, the nearest east-west route at the time back to LA was indeed 215 south to 10 west. This was true even ca. 2001:
https://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/us_2001/california_ref_2001.pdf
The old 30 freeway was a connector from Redlands - Highland - San Bernardino. At the I-10 junction in Redlands, the control city for the 30 freeway was Highland, but it now reads as 210 to Pasadena. Once in the city of San Bernardino, the westbound control for the 30 freeway used to be Los Angeles and traffic was guided down the unsigned 259 freeway to the 215 to the 10. Traffic from the mountains is also directed that way from CA-18 to head back to L.A.
In historical CA control signing practice, LA and SF are such huge magnets that any road that even hints at the direction of either LA or SF will have LA or SF as the control, even if the road itself doesn't go there all the way. Some are relics of old routings that did head into the city (I-15 used to have a LA control from the NV border all the way to I-10, this nearly matched US 66). Others never really did (CA-30 freeway, CA-91 freeway, CA-126). Historically, these roads may eventually link up with I-5 or some other road that gets you directly there. If you keep following every last sign to LA, you will reach the 4-level interchange.
Nowadays, they are stepping away from that - a little too much. There is no good reason for LA to be removed from I-5 NB in southern OC to be replaced by Santa Ana.
With the completion of the 210 freeway, most of the westbound controls on the 210 now say Pasadena - but some relics can be found that still say LA.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1434067,-117.2524072,3a,75y,203.18h,92.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHvPj_8AqCdZK2-8MBzoCDg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
West Palm Beach is the NB control city on US 98 & FL 80 at I-95. The funny thing is that the interchange is located in West Palm Beach so having it there is totally unnecessary. Lets take another road into the very same place we are in makes a whole lot of sense.
Personally, I'm in favor of using two control cities whenever the nearest major city is very far away, or if there's a very large city along the route. Here's how I'd do the control cities on I-80 between Youngstown and New York:
I-80 EASTBOUND
OH Exit 218 to OH Exit 234
Sharon
New York
OH Exit 234 to PA Exit 161
State College
New York
PA Exit 161 to PA Exit 178
Williamsport
New York
PA Exit 178 to PA Exit 261
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre
New York
(TO I-84 East | New England | USE I-81 North)
PA Exit 261 to PA Exit 307
East Stroudsburg
New York
PA Exit 307 to NJ Exit 60
New York
NJ Exit 60 to NJ Exit 68
TO I-95
George Washington Br
New York
I-80 WESTBOUND
NJ Exit 68 to NJ Exit 60
Paterson
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre
NJ Exit 60 to PA Exit 307
East Stroudsburg
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre
PA Exit 307 to PA Exit 294
Scranton/Wilkes-Barre
Cleveland
PA Exit 294 to PA Exit 284
Wilkes-Barre
Cleveland
PA Exit 284 to PA Exit 211
Williamsport
Cleveland
PA Exit 211 to PA Exit 161
State College
Cleveland
(TO U.S. 22 West | Pittsburgh | USE I-99 South)
PA Exit 161 to PA Exit 4
Sharon
Cleveland
PA Exit 4 to OH Exit 229
Youngstown
Cleveland
OH Exit 229 to OH Exit 218
Akron
Cleveland
And here's how I'd do the control cities on the Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania Turnpikes:
TURNPIKES EASTBOUND
East to IN Exit 77
South Bend
Cleveland
IN Exit 77 to OH Exit 64
Toledo
Cleveland
OH Exit 64 to OH Exit 142
Cleveland
OH Exit 142 to OH Exit 173
Akron
Pittsburgh
OH Exit 173 to OH Exit 218
Youngstown
Pittsburgh
OH Exit 218 to PA Exit 28
Pittsburgh
PA Exit 28 to PA Exit 75
Harrisburg
Philadelphia
PA Exit 75 to PA Exit 161
Baltimore
Washington DC
Harrisburg
Philadelphia
(I-70 East | Baltimore | Washington DC || I-76 East | Harrisburg | Philadelphia)
PA Exit 161 to PA Exit 242
Harrisburg
Philadelphia
PA Exit 242 to PA Exit 326
Philadelphia
PA Exit 326 to PA Exit 351
Trenton
New York
PA Exit 351 to PA Exit 356
To I-95
Trenton
New York
PA Exit 356 to NJ Exit 6
New York
TURNPIKES WESTBOUND
NJ Exit 6 to PA Exit 356
Philadelphia
PA Exit 356 to PA Exit 247
Harrisburg
Pittsburgh
PA Exit 247 to PA Exit 161
Pittsburgh
PA Exit 161 to PA Exit 75
Columbus
Pittsburgh
(I-70 West | Columbus || I-76 West | Pittsburgh)
PA Exit 75 to PA Exit 57
Pittsburgh
PA Exit 57 to OH Exit 234
Youngstown
Cleveland
OH Exit 234 to OH Exit 218
Akron
Cleveland
OH Exit 218 to OH Exit 173
Cleveland
OH Exit 173 to OH Exit 64
Toledo
Chicago
OH Exit 64 to IN Exit 77
South Bend
Chicago
IN Exit 77 and West
Chicago
Before construction of I-74 in southeastern North Carolina started, the crossing between I-95 and U.S. Route 74 south of Lumberton was a simple diamond interchange, Exit 14. The control cities were Maxton and Laurinburg, both of which are located westbound on U.S. 74 from the I-95 interchange. I would have replaced one of those cities with Whiteville, which is an eastbound city. That exit has been dismantled and that section of U.S. 74 is now Alternate U.S. 74. Mainline U.S. 74 is now concurrent with I-74 along that existing segment of I-74. The control cities on the signs along I-95 proper are Rockingham and Wilmington, while second control cities in both directions along the collector-distributor lanes are Laurinburg and Whiteville. This newer interchange is Exit 13. Exit 14 has been dismantled, but the accompanying frontage roads stemming from Alternate U.S. 74 still form the shape of the old diamond interchange.
A former example - or so I thought - in my neck of the woods was Exit 80 off I-95 in Maryland, for Maryland Route 543. The old Highway Gothic signs had the destination towns as Churchville and Riverside. MD-543 doesn't go through Churchville. However, I recently realized that drivers can take MD-543 north from I-95 to MD-136 at Creswell, and then follow 136 up to the MD-22 intersection, which is the Churchville crossroads. However, Churchville was also mentioned in both directions at the next two exits, 85 (MD-22) and 89 (MD-155). MD-155's western terminus is in Churchville as well. But now I realize that maybe only Aberdeen and Havre de Grace should have been listed northbound on the other two exits, because of the 543 to 136 thing for northbound drivers. Exit 85 still says Churchville-Aberdeen in both directions. Churchville has been removed from 80 and 89 with the Clearview update; they now say Belcamp (the same place as Riverside) and Havre de Grace.
How about a traffic circle? Maryland Routes 273 and 276 on the west end of Rising Sun. The control point for MD-273 west from either direction of MD-276 is a hamlet called Harrisville. However, that traffic circle actually is Harrisville. It should just say "MD-273 west to U.S. 1".
Ludington being the northbound control city at US-31's exit 166. PM Highway is a shorter route into Ludington than using the US-31 freeway. Manistee or even Traverse City would be a better control city at that exit
I do not know why PennDOT in Oxford Valley, PA continues to use "Trenton" for I-95 Northbound from US 1 at the cloverleaf interchange at that location. Trenton is directly north on US 1 and therefore "New York" should be used or even "Princeton" would be better. Also on I-95 at the very same interchange there is no mention of Trenton for US 1 north at all either. You follow the control city of "Trenton" out of Philadelphia on I-95 and you end up doubling back on NJ 29 once inside NJ. Exiting at US 1 would be most direct from that interchange!
Also in Enola, PA on US 11 & 15 the city of Harrisburg is used for I-81 N Bound when its completely useless there. Harrisburg is east of Wormleysburg several miles to the south of that said interchange. Yes true the actual exits for Harrisburg on I-81 are the first two exits north of US 11 & 15 in Enola, but I think it safe to assume to start using "Hazleton" being most traffic there on US 11 & 15 are locals who know where Harrisburg is anyhow.
Oh, then there is "Apopka" on US 441 at FL 414 in Lockhart, FL. Considering US 441 is Apopka's main street just a few miles north of that particular interchange, then no one needs to enter the FL 414 toll road to get there from there at all. In fact the two exits signed for Apopka on FL 414 have its second exit signed along FL 459 which leads to US 441 again on the far side of the said city only to have you double back the other way. So going NB on US 441, you see the sign for Apopka to use WB FL 414. You get on the freeway to use two exits. If your choice is number two, you travel north on FL 459 and then back south on US 441 coming into the city from the opposite side. Real smart!
Anybody who knows me know I have a pet peeve about Grenada and McComb being used as control cities on I-55 in Mississippi. Grenada is often co-signed with Memphis, and McComb with New Orleans. I don't know the history, but I wonder if the interstate wasn't finished all the way to Memphis and New Orleans; thus, travelers had to turn off at the aforementioned locations. This is why Pascagoula is signed on I-10 EB at Mobile. I-10 was finished all the way through MS, so travelers had to get off at Pascagoula onto US 90.
Quote from: Quillz on July 15, 2016, 01:28:34 AM
I've always been a bit baffled why I-405 NB uses "Sacramento" as a control city. I mean, it makes sense in that I-405 flows onto I-5, which in turn goes to Sacramento, but it seems like a city actually reachable via the 405 would make more sense. Perhaps San Fernando, Sylmar? (And of course, the entire 405 is also the "San Diego Freeway," another odd choice). I believe the SB control city in the valley is Santa Monica, a much better choice than Sacramento.
US-395 still has "San Diego" as a control city in the High Desert area, but this is a holdover from the days when it did reach the city.
I think for Navigating Purposes it makes sense to have the 405 North have the same Control City at the 5 considering it is really headed towards there. Just like the 60 West Uses Los Angeles, and the 14 South uses Los Angeles but you still have to take the 5 to get there, or 99 south ect.
Also the 405 was named the San Diego Freeway intentionally, the reason behind it was the 405 was considered a bypass for Los Angeles when it was being built and having it named the San Diego Freeway helped with guiding people towards San Diego from points further north.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on August 26, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 15, 2016, 01:28:34 AM
I've always been a bit baffled why I-405 NB uses "Sacramento" as a control city. I mean, it makes sense in that I-405 flows onto I-5, which in turn goes to Sacramento, but it seems like a city actually reachable via the 405 would make more sense. Perhaps San Fernando, Sylmar? (And of course, the entire 405 is also the "San Diego Freeway," another odd choice). I believe the SB control city in the valley is Santa Monica, a much better choice than Sacramento.
US-395 still has "San Diego" as a control city in the High Desert area, but this is a holdover from the days when it did reach the city.
I think for Navigating Purposes it makes sense to have the 405 North have the same Control City at the 5 considering it is really headed towards there. Just like the 60 West Uses Los Angeles, and the 14 South uses Los Angeles but you still have to take the 5 to get there, or 99 south ect.
I agree, though I totally see Quillz's point - long-distance control cities are somewhat inconsistent with the local emphasis (sometimes too local) for most destinations on LA/Orange County freeways. 405 at this point has been way more of a local commute route for years, and the nearby 210 is signed for San Fernando (its western terminus) at least once.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on August 26, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
Also the 405 was named the San Diego Freeway intentionally, the reason behind it was the 405 was considered a bypass for Los Angeles when it was being built and having it named the San Diego Freeway helped with guiding people towards San Diego from points further north.
It was first named the Sepulveda Freeway in the early 1950s (back when the nearby surface street lent its name to the parallel freeways being built, i.e. Ramona Parkway, Cahuenga Parkway, Colorado Freeway) before being shifted to the "San Diego" name ca. 1956-1957. the Foothill Freeway is the only vestige of the parallel-street naming (the Golden State Freeway is named after US 99's overall moniker of Golden State Highway that does appear on surface streets in the Central Valley, but parallels San Fernando Road) still in use today, while the late-1940s Santa Ana Freeway was the first to receive a destination-based appellation.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 09, 2016, 03:08:35 AM
I do not know why PennDOT in Oxford Valley, PA continues to use "Trenton" for I-95 Northbound from US 1 at the cloverleaf interchange at that location. Trenton is directly north on US 1 and therefore "New York" should be used or even "Princeton" would be better. Also on I-95 at the very same interchange there is no mention of Trenton for US 1 north at all either. You follow the control city of "Trenton" out of Philadelphia on I-95 and you end up doubling back on NJ 29 once inside NJ. Exiting at US 1 would be most direct from that interchange!
The signs for I-95 North off US 1 Southbound were changed to list Princeton as a destination (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1932823,-74.8732488,3a,75y,263.57h,86.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sU_bgyfuck0-CXyQji5yAbA!2e0!5s20150901T000000!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1) at least a decade ago.
For some reason, the exit signs along US 1 Northbound weren't changed (but the southbound I-95 signs were changed from
Central Philadelphia to just
Philadelphia (the former was greened out).
Why US 1 northbound isn't signed for Trenton (Morrisville is used instead) is unknown (or IMHO, PennDOT just being PennDOT). It certainly should be. I-95 northbound, Somerset Freeway or no Somerset Freeway should
not be signed for Trenton from this interchange (Exit 46A-B) & northward.
I think north of this interchange it should be "Princeton" although many argue that it don't go there, but its in the vicinity of where I-95 and I-295 meet. Lawrence is not well known and is a large township that just covers areas in between Trenton and Princeton.
I am also not in favor of using "Ewing" on NB I-295 mileage signs starting from the Deepwater Rest Area that does not even mention Trenton, that is I-295 Northbound's primary control city. Ewing is a suburb of Trenton and it is odd they use a shadow of a larger well known city to make as a point of control. It should be "Trenton" all the way up to Exit 60 and then Ewing could be fine, although the last mileage sign is north of US 130 in Bordentown so I guess my suggestion now is not applicable.
Quote from: roadman65 on August 26, 2016, 01:15:09 PM
I think north of this interchange it should be "Princeton" although many argue that it don't go there, but its in the vicinity of where I-95 and I-295 meet. Lawrence is not well known and is a large township that just covers areas in between Trenton and Princeton.
I am also not in favor of using "Ewing" on NB I-295 mileage signs starting from the Deepwater Rest Area that does not even mention Trenton, that is I-295 Northbound's primary control city. Ewing is a suburb of Trenton and it is odd they use a shadow of a larger well known city to make as a point of control. It should be "Trenton" all the way up to Exit 60 and then Ewing could be fine, although the last mileage sign is north of US 130 in Bordentown so I guess my suggestion now is not applicable.
I agree. Princeton as the control city for I-95 north of US 1 signifies the role that I-95 here serves as a BYPASS of central Trenton. It should absolutely be signed consistently from US1/I-95 northward to at least the US 206 interchange.
As someone who frequently uses I-295 as a shunpike route to bypass the southern NJTP, I wish that Camden and Trenton were on the mileage signs and even NYC every now and again. To the extent that NYC is used as a mileage sign control on NJTP (or parallel route), what is the mileage referening? I mean if the sign says 150 miles to NYC, are we measuring to Staten Island or to the Holland, Lincoln, or GWB, or to a point somewhere within the city limits?
Quote from: mrsman on October 20, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
I mean if the sign says 150 miles to NYC, are we measuring to Staten Island or to the Holland, Lincoln, or GWB, or to a point somewhere within the city limits?
In general, aren't those "xx miles to x city" signs referring to the distance to that city's downtown or city hall?
i.e. the distance marked to San Francisco from I-80 westbound in Pinole is about 27 miles, even though there are only 26 miles left on the Interstate and I-80 reaches SF city limits in Treasure Island (Exit 4) and has first access to the central business district at the Fremont Street ramp (exit 2D).
Quote from: TheStranger on October 20, 2016, 12:03:17 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 20, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
I mean if the sign says 150 miles to NYC, are we measuring to Staten Island or to the Holland, Lincoln, or GWB, or to a point somewhere within the city limits?
In general, aren't those "xx miles to x city" signs referring to the distance to that city's downtown or city hall?
That depends. I know there is a state law in Massachusetts stating the distance to Boston on any mileage sign must reflect the distance to the State House. I don't know about any other legislation in other areas, but I am sure it exists.
Quote from: tckma on October 20, 2016, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on October 20, 2016, 12:03:17 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 20, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
I mean if the sign says 150 miles to NYC, are we measuring to Staten Island or to the Holland, Lincoln, or GWB, or to a point somewhere within the city limits?
In general, aren't those "xx miles to x city" signs referring to the distance to that city's downtown or city hall?
That depends. I know there is a state law in Massachusetts stating the distance to Boston on any mileage sign must reflect the distance to the State House. I don't know about any other legislation in other areas, but I am sure it exists.
Actually, the reference point for mileage in Boston was the Federal Custom House, and not the Massachusetts State House. Although this was known practice, I don't recall ever seeing actual an actual Legislative Act requiring it. And, yes, the currently accepted practice is for distances displayed on post-interchange distance signs to be measured to the established town or city center (typically the town hall) in the community. However, in the past, many toll roads and other agencies would show the distances from the sign to either the town/city border or the first interchange serving that community. This initially raised some eyebrows when MassHighway updated their post-interchange distance signs back in 2004, when you wound up with (to quote my favorite example) a distance sign reading
Stoneham 3 that is located after an advance interchange sign reading
Stoneham 1 Mile.
Funny. At tours of the State House in Boston, they said that the mileages on the Pike to Boston were to the gold dome of the State House.
...not that I'd be surprised if they were just telling tales out of school...
Quote from: TheStranger on August 26, 2016, 12:37:23 PM
Quote from: Interstate Trav on August 26, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 15, 2016, 01:28:34 AM
I've always been a bit baffled why I-405 NB uses "Sacramento" as a control city. I mean, it makes sense in that I-405 flows onto I-5, which in turn goes to Sacramento, but it seems like a city actually reachable via the 405 would make more sense. Perhaps San Fernando, Sylmar? (And of course, the entire 405 is also the "San Diego Freeway," another odd choice). I believe the SB control city in the valley is Santa Monica, a much better choice than Sacramento.
US-395 still has "San Diego" as a control city in the High Desert area, but this is a holdover from the days when it did reach the city.
I think for Navigating Purposes it makes sense to have the 405 North have the same Control City at the 5 considering it is really headed towards there. Just like the 60 West Uses Los Angeles, and the 14 South uses Los Angeles but you still have to take the 5 to get there, or 99 south ect.
I agree, though I totally see Quillz's point - long-distance control cities are somewhat inconsistent with the local emphasis (sometimes too local) for most destinations on LA/Orange County freeways. 405 at this point has been way more of a local commute route for years, and the nearby 210 is signed for San Fernando (its western terminus) at least once.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on August 26, 2016, 11:53:53 AM
Also the 405 was named the San Diego Freeway intentionally, the reason behind it was the 405 was considered a bypass for Los Angeles when it was being built and having it named the San Diego Freeway helped with guiding people towards San Diego from points further north.
It was first named the Sepulveda Freeway in the early 1950s (back when the nearby surface street lent its name to the parallel freeways being built, i.e. Ramona Parkway, Cahuenga Parkway, Colorado Freeway) before being shifted to the "San Diego" name ca. 1956-1957. the Foothill Freeway is the only vestige of the parallel-street naming (the Golden State Freeway is named after US 99's overall moniker of Golden State Highway that does appear on surface streets in the Central Valley, but parallels San Fernando Road) still in use today, while the late-1940s Santa Ana Freeway was the first to receive a destination-based appellation.
I do remember the 405 had the name for the Sepulveda Freeway, just like the 10 in East Los Angeles was originally the Ramona Freeway for a little bit if I'm not mistaken for Ramona blvd, and I think both were changed for there destination.
I agree the 405 is a commuter route, but it can be considered a through route as well. The 210 is now signed for Sacramento if I'm not mistaken. but I understand your point. On a mileage sign on 405 north in the valley it lists Santa Clarita -huge commute point- Bakersfield and Sacramento.
One I think is not the greatest is the 210 east only being signed for Redlands and not mentioning Palm Springs or Indio once you reach San Bernardino.
Quote from: tckma on October 20, 2016, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on October 20, 2016, 12:03:17 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 20, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
I mean if the sign says 150 miles to NYC, are we measuring to Staten Island or to the Holland, Lincoln, or GWB, or to a point somewhere within the city limits?
In general, aren't those "xx miles to x city" signs referring to the distance to that city's downtown or city hall?
That depends. I know there is a state law in Massachusetts stating the distance to Boston on any mileage sign must reflect the distance to the State House. I don't know about any other legislation in other areas, but I am sure it exists.
I know most cities in California it's listed to Downtown, in Nevada, Las Vegas is listed as 41 miles from Primm and thats the mileage to Downtown Las Vegas.
Same with Los Angeles, it's usually the Downtown interchange that is used.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on October 20, 2016, 04:32:44 PM
I agree the 405 is a commuter route, but it can be considered a through route as well. The 210 is now signed for Sacramento if I'm not mistaken. but I understand your point. On a mileage sign on 405 north in the valley it lists Santa Clarita -huge commute point- Bakersfield and Sacramento.
I think 210 is signed for Sacramento only from 134 to 5, i.e. this:
https://goo.gl/maps/2gMQXv9MWDx
It's signed for Pasadena westbound as far west as Route 19:
https://goo.gl/maps/8727iryEsuC2
Quote from: Interstate Trav on October 20, 2016, 04:32:44 PM
One I think is not the greatest is the 210 east only being signed for Redlands and not mentioning Palm Springs or Indio once you reach San Bernardino.
Other than all the signs pointing to Sacramento/I-5 north (i.e. 210, 405), long-distance controls don't seem to be emphasized much in the LA metro area and the Inland Empire, especially in comparison to other parts of the state.
Quote from: Rothman on October 20, 2016, 12:29:23 PM
Funny. At tours of the State House in Boston, they said that the mileages on the Pike to Boston were to the gold dome of the State House.
...not that I'd be surprised if they were just telling tales out of school...
Sure, why not? Tour guides have made up about half the etymologies of words. Especially anything related to shipbuilding or the navy.
Quote from: Interstate Trav on October 20, 2016, 04:34:07 PM
Quote from: tckma on October 20, 2016, 12:11:34 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on October 20, 2016, 12:03:17 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 20, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
I mean if the sign says 150 miles to NYC, are we measuring to Staten Island or to the Holland, Lincoln, or GWB, or to a point somewhere within the city limits?
In general, aren't those "xx miles to x city" signs referring to the distance to that city's downtown or city hall?
That depends. I know there is a state law in Massachusetts stating the distance to Boston on any mileage sign must reflect the distance to the State House. I don't know about any other legislation in other areas, but I am sure it exists.
I know most cities in California it's listed to Downtown, in Nevada, Las Vegas is listed as 41 miles from Primm and thats the mileage to Downtown Las Vegas.
Same with Los Angeles, it's usually the Downtown interchange that is used.
Apologies for the bump. Just now reading this thread, and wanted to comment on this.
NDOT's general policy is to use the distance to the community's city center or city hall. In cases of small rural towns without a business district or city hall, the post office location is sometimes used. However, my informal observation along freeways is that a distance to a particular interchange is used.
Regarding the Las Vegas distance mentioned: For Las Vegas, NDOT uses the I-15/I-515/US 93/US 95 "Spaghetti Bowl" interchange as the origin point for Las Vegas, which is located generally in Downtown. For the mileage sign on I-15 north, it is indeed 41 miles to the bowl at that point. From that same point it is actually about 36 miles to Las Vegas proper, and is only about 26 miles to the urban limit of what is commonly considered Las Vegas (chalk this up to the distinction between incorporated city limit versus the unincorporated Las Vegas area townships that use mailing addresses of "Las Vegas").
I-77 north of Statesville in NC uses Elkin. I think Charleston WV or even Roanoke VA (via I-81) would be more appropriate than Elkin.
EDIT: I would also replace Lake City on I-10 west of Jacksonville in Florida with Tallahassee. I suspect drivers merging onto I-10 from I-95 would be far more interested in Tallahassee than Lake City.
Quote from: Zzonkmiles on November 05, 2016, 07:20:09 PM
I-77 north of Statesville in NC uses Elkin. I think Charleston WV or even Roanoke VA (via I-81) would be more appropriate than Elkin.
EDIT: I would also replace Lake City on I-10 west of Jacksonville in Florida with Tallahassee. I suspect drivers merging onto I-10 from I-95 would be far more interested in Tallahassee than Lake City.
^ I agree with listing Tallahassee instead of Lake City--even though Lake City is the nearest city to the I-10/I-75 interchange. This is why Lake City is the control point instead of Tallahassee, although I would use Tallahassee.
A more appropriate control point for I-77 north of Statesville would be Wytheville. Charleston is a bit "too far" and Roanoke isn't on I-77's path--but neither is Memphis on I-57's path. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing both Charleston
and Roanoke listed. It would be listed like this in Illinois, more than likely.
I have always been a proponent of having larger cities on BGS's at major interchanges. For example, I would use New York and Cleveland at the major interchanges (I-79, I-99/US 220, US 15, I-180, I-81, and PA 33) along I-80 instead of the smaller towns currently shown. Keep the current ones for the other interchanges along I-80 except for I-380. Have I-80 EAST show New York and keep Hazleton on I-80 WEST.
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 30, 2016, 04:01:07 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on June 29, 2016, 02:29:31 PM
Is it common to list (non-roadway accessible) islands as a control city?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FW1108D8.png&hash=26e511ba6cdeb60a9f4a4b200e41be23ece204d0)
I'm more curious as towards why this signage completely ignores listing MA 28; 28 northbound is accessible via Exit 3 and 28 southbound becomes the through-highway just south of this interchange.
While we're in that general area US 6 uses Boston as a control city (at least here in Hyannis) as well as Providence. 6 has to go through New Bedford and Fall River before it even hits Providence, so why can't MASSDOT use NB and Fall River as control cities? As for Boston, you can get to it from the Cape on Route 3.
On "The Islands" in that sign, it must be old because you have to go through Hyannis to get to Nantucket. The days of going through Woods Hole to get to Nantucket are well over.
Quote from: CapeCodder on November 06, 2016, 11:24:55 AMOn "The Islands" in that sign, it must be old because you have to go through Hyannis to get to Nantucket. The days of going through Woods Hole to get to Nantucket are well over.
The Islands can also include Martha's Vineyard as well; which is only a short ferry ride from Woods Hole compared to Hyannis.
I like Bear Mountain and Delaware Water Gap in the NYC area.
Although on I-80 west of its east terminus, what could you really use anyhow? No cities until Youngstown, OH that is well over 400 miles from Teaneck. Then again it could be Stroudsburg from the NJ Turnpike (and Cleveland could be also used from there only) up till Stroudsburg. Then Hazleton (because of I-81) and then Williamsport ( being its not on there so is Dayton not on I-70 yet now signed from Columbus and Indy, and so its Huntsville in both AL and TN for I-65 that is also not on it) up until its reached and then Youngstown as its close enough to warrant a distant city.
Then on I-80 E Bound it would be Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, and New York.
Also in NJ are not the mileage signs on the interstates have unnecessary control cities? They do not use the next exit, sequential town with its next major city, but three points listed along the way until each first point is reached. Then comes the next sign advancing number two to one, and bringing in a new number two as the final point is usually a terminus of the signed route or state line community at roads leaving NJ, or a major NJ City like Newark, Trenton, and Somerville.
On I-78 they use Bedminster where they think that everyone knows its where I-287 junctions, but being its not signed anywhere on guides except at where the interstate enters the township, its not that noticeable. Using I-287 instead would be more benificial than that.
Plus NJ should use also the next town and large city concept. I am not going to say next exit as the exits are too dense on many NJ Freeways. I-80 from the Gap should use Netcong, Paterson, and New York. A sign in the middle of Columbia and Netcong should update that info while east of Netcong it should have signs post NJ 10 exit for Denville, Paterson and New York; and another for it after Route 15. Then from there I-287, Paterson, and New York and so on.
NJ did try to implement a more standard system like other states hence the Columbia 7, and Del. Water Gap 11 sign near Hope as Columbia is the next exit and the Gap is the control point. However, over the years NJDOT gave up on that as well as the NJ Turnpike with the every 10 miles for New York on the ten that used to be for many years after the road opened.
I have never liked Delaware Water Gap as a "control city." It should be Stroudsburg from I-287 on.
These are my opinions on how I would sign control cities on I-80 in New Jersey and Pennsylvania...
I-80 west starting from I-95: Paterson, Netcong, Stroudsburg, Hazleton, Williamsport, Sharon, Youngstown.
I-80 east starting from Youngstown: New York (in OH), DuBois, Williamsport, Hazleton, Stroudsburg, Netcong, Paterson.
These would be for the non-major interchanges along I-80. The major interchanges in Pennsylvania I posted above would have New York and Cleveland. The I-287 interchange in Parsippany would have New York and Stroudsburg and no Delaware Water Gap!
Some of the above could be double listed on pull-throughs, such as Netcong/Stroudsburg, Sharon/Youngstown, and Netcong/Paterson.
Mileage signs should reflect the control cities mentioned above--even if there needs to be a three-line post interchange mileage sign.
Examples: Clarion 43 Brookville 15
Dubois 79 Clarion 34
New York 367 Sharon 99
Not all mileage signs need to be changed--just a few. It would cost too much. In fact, this whole endeavor would cost too much. :-D I just believe that along I-80 in Pennsylvania and, to a smaller extent, New Jersey should have fewer control cities on their signs. Don't need every small town listed.
NJ needs better mileage signs. You get the Netcon-Denville-Paterson sign east of NJ 94 which is all right, but give another after CR 521 and CR 517. Then east of US 206 it should be like it is, but another should be after NJ 15. Then after US 46 at Denville it should be I-287-Paterson- New York followed by east of I-287 Paterson-Hackensack-New York with more signs east of NJ 23 to support that.
East of Paterson, its hard to do a three point so east of the GSP it should be the last mileage sign for Hackensack-New York.
West it should be like this at the beginning. Paterson-Denville-Stoudsburg. Heck a sign like along I-70 in MD could be such as Chicago-Des Moines-Salt Lake- San Fransisco could be erected somewhere between I-95 and NJ 17. West of NJ 19 it should be I-287-Denville- Stroudsburg. Then west of NJ 23 the same followed next with Denville-Netcong- Stroudsburg at US 202. After US 202 it should be Netcong-Columbia-Stroudsburg both at US 46 and NJ 15, Then after Netcong it should be Columbia-Stroudsburg at all interchanges in between US 206 and Columbia. At NJ 94 it should have Stroudsburg- Hazleton as the last NJ mileage sign.
^ I totally agree with you on this. In fact, I believe New Jersey needs more post interchange mileage signs throughout the state. I-287 could use a few (after the I-80 interchange, the NJ 24 interchange, I-78, south of US 202/206, west of the NJ Turnpike, and south of the Thruway), I-78's could be improved, and the NJ Turnpike definitely needs them.
The signs should be those that are seen on freeways instead of those looking like they are on regular state highways.
Even Supplemental signs in NJ are like they belong on the regular non freeways.
Anyway, Secaucus now is being used on The Parkway in NJ for Exit 153A. NYC is right behind the Hudson County Town and the largest city in the US, and the NJTA comes up with that one. Ugghhhh! Anyhow, at least they decided on Wayne for NJ 3 West, although Little Falls is used along NJ 23 to the same intersection.
Then Paramus now is used in East Orange on the pull through on N Bound GSP at I-280. Another useless control destination.
The NJTP should restore giving the distance to New York on the tens like they did before along with Camden, Trenton, Elizabeth, and maybe Fort Lee. The only one I ever saw when I drove for a trucking company was one that had New York 90 miles away. They also should give the distances to Elizabeth, Trenton, Camden, Wilmington, and maybe Baltimore southbound from New York.
Quote from: amroad17 on November 12, 2016, 08:02:22 PM
The NJTP should restore giving the distance to New York on the tens like they did before along with Camden, Trenton, Elizabeth, and maybe Fort Lee. The only one I ever saw when I drove for a trucking company was one that had New York 90 miles away. They also should give the distances to Elizabeth, Trenton, Camden, Wilmington, and maybe Baltimore southbound from New York.
Tried that one. William Buckley of the NJTA told me the demands are no longer there for mileage signs so any one you see is leftover from the past.
It should really be that on the tens and for the smaller cities use it post interchange south of Exit 13. North of 13 its hard to with interchanges so densely spaced, but entering NJ from NY should have Newark, Trenton, and Camden at least someplace south of NJ 4 in the cut of Bergen Hill. On the Western Spur south of the 18W Plaza one should be for Trenton, Camden, and Wilmington.
So, apparently, the NJTA believes every city is an unnecessary control city on the NJTP?
Quote from: amroad17 on November 14, 2016, 03:19:34 PM
So, apparently, the NJTA believes every city is an unnecessary control city on the NJTP?
Basically. This has been discussed before, but the newer signs on the Turnpike southbound use Wilmington, Trenton, Camden. I believe this should have been changed to "Baltimore" or just simply Delaware since it technically does not go to Wilmington.
In NC on US 264, where it meets I-95 in Wilson, the EB and WB lanes use Benson as a control city disregarding the much bigger Smithfield.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_W_DDBozH_yQ%2FTNJt-Ns4_YI%2FAAAAAAAAAaw%2FLDo5twg_zfg%2Fs640%2Fbaghdad%2Bsign.jpg&hash=6e2f119f5d01091f6861420b750943ced86e9049)
Baghdad, as signed in Syria. A fat lot of good that control city will do you these days!
I think Oregon goes overboard with them on I-5 south. I get Salem and Eugene and I am ok with Medford but come on Roseburg, Grants Pass and Ashland? Then once you get past that and close to the end near California they don't use Sacramento or even Redding it's Yreka the first town you come to in California that nobody has ever heard of.
Grant's Pass is significant because 199 splits off there for the coast.
Ashland has the Oregon Shakespeare Festival that attracts large numbers of visitors.
Yreka is, umm, good for word games?
Quote from: J Route Z on December 19, 2016, 02:31:45 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on November 14, 2016, 03:19:34 PM
So, apparently, the NJTA believes every city is an unnecessary control city on the NJTP?
Basically. This has been discussed before, but the newer signs on the Turnpike southbound use Wilmington, Trenton, Camden. I believe this should have been changed to "Baltimore" or just simply Delaware since it technically does not go to Wilmington.
Some signs used to list
Delaware but such is now afoul w/FHWA/MUTCD (the use of state names as control city/destinations are no longer allowed).
If one's going to not consider Wilmington as an NJTP control city because it technically doesn't go to Wilmington; a similar argument can be made for not using
New York or
New York City as a listed northbound NJTP destination for the same exact reason.
Cross-posted from another thread:
Quote from: briantroutman on January 23, 2017, 01:08:49 PM(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/335/31673980553_4f4624252a_k.jpg)
New England! The city where the Patriots play! /s
Which got me thinking. Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton? As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.
[/quote]
Quote from: roadman on January 25, 2017, 02:38:00 PM
Cross-posted from another thread:
Quote from: briantroutman on January 23, 2017, 01:08:49 PM(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/335/31673980553_4f4624252a_k.jpg)
New England! The city where the Patriots play! /s
Which got me thinking. Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton? As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.
[/quote]
That sign's new from the last time I was through there. How long has it been up? And is it the first mention of NYC since Youngstown?
Quote from: roadman on January 25, 2017, 02:38:00 PM
Which got me thinking. Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton? As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.
(Also cross-posted from that thread:)
Population-wise, Scranton is nearly twice the size of Wilkes-Barre (77,000 vs. 40,000), although the cluster of municipalities that makes up greater Wilkes-Barre is even more fragmented (W-B City vs. W-B Township, plus Kingston, Forty-Fort, etc.) than that of greater Scranton, so the practical gap in city size is perhaps not as great.
But I understand that there is a certain us vs. them dynamic at work–enough that Wilkes-Barre resident and former (and disgraced) Congressman Dan Flood fought relentlessly to get the airport designated as "Wilkes-Barre/Scranton" and not "Scranton/Wilkes-Barre" .
I grew up in Williamsport, where the local TV network affiliates are all translators of Scranton/Wilkes-Barre stations (with token coverage of Central PA), and I always thought of the two cities as a unit. But my wife, who's a native of Wilkes-Barre, says that the two cities are different worlds that rarely intermix. She grew up reading W-B newspapers, listening to W-B radio, and shopping at W-B stores–never going to Scranton.
That brings up the question of "twin city" pairs in general. Heading east out of Abilene on I-20, does TxDOT sign the larger Dallas or the smaller Fort Worth that you encounter first? Same thing on I-94 heading west out of Wisconsin: St. Paul or Minneapolis? Perhaps the better question is: How
should these pairs be signed?
In the case of I-81, I believe PennDOT signs whichever you hit first–Wilkes-Barre northbound and Scranton southbound.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 25, 2017, 08:45:50 PM
That sign's new from the last time I was through there. How long has it been up? And is it the first mention of NYC since Youngstown?
I just noticed the sign on a visit to PA last weekend, and I don't recall seeing the sign on my Christmas visit home, so I suspect it went up after the first of the year. As far as I know, it's the first mention of New York eastbound motorists get after Youngstown and the last they'll see until they're well into New Jersey.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 25, 2017, 08:45:50 PM
Quote from: roadman on January 25, 2017, 02:38:00 PM
Cross-posted from another thread:
Quote from: briantroutman on January 23, 2017, 01:08:49 PM(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/335/31673980553_4f4624252a_k.jpg)
New England! The city where the Patriots play! /s
Which got me thinking. Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton? As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.
Also bizarre is that I-80 doesn't go anywhere near Hazleton and only has one far away exit for it. The much more direct route would be I-81 south of the interchange which goes much closer to and has multiple exits for Hazleton. Insted the control city for I-81 south is Harrisburg. I will say though I like how there are 2 control control cities listed, one local, and one more populated, but farther away which I think is less confusing for drivers.
Quote from: briantroutman on January 25, 2017, 09:22:39 PM
Quote from: roadman on January 25, 2017, 02:38:00 PM
Which got me thinking. Why Wilkes-Barre and not Scranton? As Scranton is the I-81/I-84 junction, it would make more sense to use that as the control city.
(Also cross-posted from that thread:)
That brings up the question of "twin city" pairs in general. Heading east out of Abilene on I-20, does TxDOT sign the larger Dallas or the smaller Fort Worth that you encounter first? Same thing on I-94 heading west out of Wisconsin: St. Paul or Minneapolis? Perhaps the better question is: How should these pairs be signed?
In the case of I-81, I believe PennDOT signs whichever you hit first–Wilkes-Barre northbound and Scranton southbound.
In Texas, from the west Fort Worth is used. At the 10/20 split east of El Paso, the BGS says I-20 East, Ft Worth and Dallas below. Fort Worth and Abilene are used interchangeably on guide signs and then Ft. Worth alone east of Abilene. At the I-20/30 split, Fort Worth is shown on I-30 and Dallas is on the I-20 pull through.
I think this set up is fine. List the city you come to first, even if it's the smaller of the twins.
Quote from: kkt on January 24, 2017, 06:21:43 PM
Yreka is, umm, good for word games?
Zzyzx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zzyzx,_California) is better for word games, I think.
Quote from: tckma on February 01, 2017, 04:07:06 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 24, 2017, 06:21:43 PM
Yreka is, umm, good for word games?
Zzyzx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zzyzx,_California) is better for word games, I think.
Too bad Scrabble has only 1 Z.
Quote from: GaryV on February 01, 2017, 06:38:21 PM
Quote from: tckma on February 01, 2017, 04:07:06 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 24, 2017, 06:21:43 PM
Yreka is, umm, good for word games?
Zzyzx (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zzyzx,_California) is better for word games, I think.
Too bad Scrabble has only 1 Z.
Yes, but two (albeit non-scoring) blank tiles.
Of course proper names aren't allowed, but...
It's more of an improper name, if you ask me.
All control cities that are there just because of an Interstate junction. How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 17, 2017, 02:29:41 AM
All control cities that are there just because of an Interstate junction. How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?
:clap:
Even more so, those which exist solely because of a junction with a US highway. (Santa Rosa, NM; Van Horn, Texas; and McComb, Mississippi I'm looking at you.)
Here's my running list of ideal control cities. Let me know what you think:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11NPi2nTWI5mBt0FWx2x3RSscQsnKPMrs_qdzJqvEKo0/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/document/d/11NPi2nTWI5mBt0FWx2x3RSscQsnKPMrs_qdzJqvEKo0/edit?usp=sharing)
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 17, 2017, 02:29:41 AM
All control cities that are there just because of an Interstate junction. How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?
Agree. While the standards need to be flexable due to the very long distances in some parts of the country between towns of any significance, being a JCT of two interstates, or worse yet of an interstate and some lesser road such as an Appalachian Corridor, is a dumb reason to be a control city. People that are navigating by route numbers already know that. Cambridge, and a lot of other similar places, if the JCT was one exit up or down the road, would never be considered.
I would think that control cities should be towns of enough significance that a person of reasonable education would know of their existance just as a matter of being a functioning part of society. Generally that is population, but other factors can be educational (college towns), tourist destinations, transportation hubs (which is more than two interstates crossing in a corn field), historical significance, political (state capitals) or military (major bases).
Of the roads in my area, IMHO, on 77 I would use Wytheville because it is a major cross roads and a regional services hub. Then Bluefield, then Charleston, then Parkersburg because Cleveland is too far, then Cleveland or Canton-Akron-Cleveland. On 64 from Lexington they should use Huntington because the road only skirts Ashland and Ashland is a smaller town of little significance, the Charleston then I think you have to go with Beckley and then Lewisburg, even though both are small. The next city of any more significance is maybe Lexington VA, which would cause confusion with Lexington KY, and really it would be Richmond, which is just too far, although the secondary use of Charlotte and Richmond at the 64 77 split is helpful. 79 should just use Morgantown, then Pittsburgh. Clarksburg and Fairmont are insignificant and Washington PA is little more than Cambridge and confusing with DC. Really the best control "city" for 68 at Morgantown is just "Maryland". Cumberland is not significant, and "Baltimore" or "Baltimore-Washington" is too far.
So much for Beckley.
And Norfolk along I-64 East.
Also, any control point for I-80 and I-90 east of Chicago.
Goodbye, Tomah and Albert Lea. Nice knowing you.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 17, 2017, 02:29:41 AM
How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?
They don't. Ohio uses Columbus/Wheeling W.Va for control points on I-70, and Cleveland/Marietta for control points on I-77. You only see Cambridge on the local roads.
Quote from: amroad17 on April 17, 2017, 04:18:01 PM
And Norfolk along I-64 East.
Also, any control point for I-80 and I-90 east of Chicago.
I'm assuming that you're referring to the I-80/90 multiplex, no?
There are plenty of noteworthy places along I-90. Cleveland, Buffalo, and Albany are all pretty useful control points for eastbound I-90 traffic.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 18, 2017, 10:29:31 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on April 17, 2017, 04:18:01 PM
And Norfolk along I-64 East.
Also, any control point for I-80 and I-90 east of Chicago.
I'm assuming that you're referring to the I-80/90 multiplex, no?
There are plenty of noteworthy places along I-90. Cleveland, Buffalo, and Albany are all pretty useful control points for eastbound I-90 traffic.
Not if you're in northern Indiana.
There aren't really many useful locales along I-80/90 through Indiana. Here in Joliet, IL, the eastern control city shown is either Gary, Toledo, or simply "Indiana." The tollways through Ohio and Indiana are mainly intended as a route long-distance travelers, hence the heavily-limited access. I always kind of wondered why no signs in the Chicago area mention anything about Cleveland. Toledo is good enough I guess.
If there aren't well-known control cities in Indiana, they should use cities outside of Indiana. I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
Of course I-5's control cities here are Vancouver BC and Portland OR.
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
If there aren't well-known control cities in Indiana, they should use cities outside of Indiana. I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
Of course I-5's control cities here are Vancouver BC and Portland OR.
At least it's not Blaine and Vancouver.
Quote from: SP Cook on April 17, 2017, 02:24:41 PM
Agree. While the standards need to be flexable due to the very long distances in some parts of the country between towns of any significance, being a JCT of two interstates, or worse yet of an interstate and some lesser road such as an Appalachian Corridor, is a dumb reason to be a control city. People that are navigating by route numbers already know that. Cambridge, and a lot of other similar places, if the JCT was one exit up or down the road, would never be considered.
I would think that control cities should be towns of enough significance that a person of reasonable education would know of their existance just as a matter of being a functioning part of society. Generally that is population, but other factors can be educational (college towns), tourist destinations, transportation hubs (which is more than two interstates crossing in a corn field), historical significance, political (state capitals) or military (major bases).
Of the roads in my area, IMHO, on 77 I would use Wytheville because it is a major cross roads and a regional services hub. Then Bluefield, then Charleston, then Parkersburg because Cleveland is too far, then Cleveland or Canton-Akron-Cleveland. On 64 from Lexington they should use Huntington because the road only skirts Ashland and Ashland is a smaller town of little significance, the Charleston then I think you have to go with Beckley and then Lewisburg, even though both are small. The next city of any more significance is maybe Lexington VA, which would cause confusion with Lexington KY, and really it would be Richmond, which is just too far, although the secondary use of Charlotte and Richmond at the 64 77 split is helpful. 79 should just use Morgantown, then Pittsburgh. Clarksburg and Fairmont are insignificant and Washington PA is little more than Cambridge and confusing with DC. Really the best control "city" for 68 at Morgantown is just "Maryland". Cumberland is not significant, and "Baltimore" or "Baltimore-Washington" is too far.
I totally agree with your first two paragraphs, but you lost me on the third one. I'm a roadgeek, and I've never heard of Wytheville, Bluefield, Parkersburg, Ashland, or Lewisburg. No rank and file motorist from outside the region will have any clue where those places are. As an outsider, I'd go with (from Charleston) Morgantown, Huntington (or even Lexington KY), and Beckly (only because of the long 64-77 concurrency), and then from Beckly I'd go Charleston, Charlotte, and Richmond. I agree that 79 out of Morgantown should be Pittsburgh.
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
Amen!
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
You mean it doesn't? And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.
Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
You mean it doesn't? And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.
People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi. They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.
Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2017, 01:53:36 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
Amen!
Or on the other side of the state line, see Morrisville on US 1 in NJ or Del Water Gap on I-80 in NJ
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2017, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
You mean it doesn't? And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.
People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi. They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.
As opposed to New Yorkers, who see the world as New England, New York, New Jersey, [some something], California. All of them roughly the same size.
Quote from: GaryV on April 20, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
As opposed to New Yorkers, who see the world as New England, New York, New Jersey, [some something], California. All of them roughly the same size.
About like this?
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b5/10/42/b510423d3f86b92884dc21fe1eb29cee.jpg)
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2017, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
You mean it doesn't? And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.
People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi. They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.
Don't you mean the Fox River and South of 80?
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.
(https://www.aaroads.com/southeast/north_carolina095/i-095_nb_exit_138_03.jpg)
Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.
Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.
Agree. And, since you brought up the subject, while not as formalized as interstates, other major roads, also should have informative control cities that a reasonabably knowledgable person might actually have heard of, expecially if exiting from an interstate onto another level of highway is something a major portion of the traffic is going to do at that exit.
Quote from: SP Cook on April 21, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.
Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.
Agree. And, since you brought up the subject, while not as formalized as interstates, other major roads, also should have informative control cities that a reasonabably knowledgable person might actually have heard of, expecially if exiting from an interstate onto another level of highway is something a major portion of the traffic is going to do at that exit.
There should definitely be a test of "would the average person know of this destination?" Control cities are ultimately supposed to be informative. NC DOT misses that point so often.
The only area where they get it correct (in my mind) is signing Richmond as a control city on I-95 north of Rocky Mount.
Quote from: inkyatari on April 21, 2017, 09:14:53 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2017, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.
You mean it doesn't? And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.
People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi. They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.
Don't you mean the Fox River and South of 80?
No, if the corn starts at the Fox River, then they can no longer make fun of Iowa.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.
(https://www.aaroads.com/southeast/north_carolina095/i-095_nb_exit_138_03.jpg)
Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.
Yes, it should be Rocky Mount and Raleigh on the exit BGS with Tarboro and Nashville on a supplemental sign. The reasons Nashville is on the sign is because, I believe, that part of I-95 is in Nash County and Nashville is the county seat and when I-95 was first completed, US 64 was a regular two-lane highway instead of the freeway it is now. The control cities should have been updated when the US 64 freeway was finished.
North Carolina loves adding control cities to signs--sometimes not in a "clean", steamlined way. Many BGS's have three or even four cities listed on the signs. Plus, they have a little Pennsylvania in them in that they sign non-descript control cities (Benson, Dunn, Elkin, and Hickory) instead of larger cities. However, most DOT's in any state never really "update" themselves when it comes to signing control cities. Signs are usually "carbon copied" and don't show changes that may have occurred in areas. For I-95 in NC, there should be four control cities along its path--Richmond, Rocky Mount, Fayetteville, and Florence, SC. No mentions of Benson, Dunn, Kenly, Smithfield, or Lumberton.
This makes me wonder what control cities will be used for I-42 at I-95. Would they be Goldsboro/Raleigh (the logical one), Goldsboro/Garner, or maybe even Goldsboro/Clayton?
Take US 17 in northeastern NC, for example. Beginning at the south end of the Elizabeth City bypass, US 17 north is signed for Chesapeake, VA--which is good since this is the next "large" city US 17 goes through. There are two things "wrong" with this, however. First, Chesapeake does not really have an urban, downtown area. The part of US 17 in Chesapeake goes through rural farms then semi-suburban areas. So, yes, US 17 goes through Chesapeake, but nowhere near a city "center", although it does go through the city for a considerable distance. Second, after the Elizabeth City bypass ends and US 17 passes Morgan's Corner, the first distance sign encountered lists
Portsmouth and
Hampton. I always found this to be fascinating. I could understand the Portsmouth listing since US 17 does come close to its downtown area but US 17 does not even enter Hampton.
That is unnecessary. But what I am getting at is that US 17 should be signed for Portsmouth instead of Chesapeake and that Hampton should be replaced with Newport News.
When the distance signs were first put up in 1983, US 17 followed now Business US 17 through Deep Creek and up to I-64. Dominion Blvd. was VA 104 and headed to the I-464/I-64 interchange. US 17 was re-routed along Dominion and I-64 around 2001-02. So, maybe, US 17
could have Norfolk as a control city--even though US 17 does not go into Norfolk but leads to a highway that does enter Norfolk (I-464).
Of course, in (optimistically) 20-30 years, US 17 could be co-signed with I-87 and the control city
would be Norfolk.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.
(https://www.aaroads.com/southeast/north_carolina095/i-095_nb_exit_138_03.jpg)
Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.
Quote from: SP Cook on April 21, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.
Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.
Agree. And, since you brought up the subject, while not as formalized as interstates, other major roads, also should have informative control cities that a reasonabably knowledgable person might actually have heard of, expecially if exiting from an interstate onto another level of highway is something a major portion of the traffic is going to do at that exit.
Case in point: US 23's I-64 exit in Kentucky. Destinations are Louisa and Ashland, but US 23 serves a lot more cities than just those two towns. That corridor runs from Columbus, Ohio through Chillicothe and Portsmouth; then Pikeville, Ky.; then Norton, Va.; Kingsport and Johnson City, Tenn.; and Asheville, NC. Any of those places could legitimately be listed at the I-64 exit. I might not post the Ohio cities because Portsmouth is best reached from US 52 and Chillicothe and Columbus by other routes leading out of Charleston, but I'd be tempted to sign Pikeville and possibly Kingsport.
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.
(https://www.aaroads.com/southeast/north_carolina095/i-095_nb_exit_138_03.jpg)
Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.
Based on GSV, this photo appears to have been taken in the northbound direction. Southbound, the sign has a larger Raleigh banner at the top in place of the smaller Tarboro banner shown here, though it still has Rocky Mount and Nashville listed as the control cities on main guide sign itself.
But by this point headed north, you've already passed two other all-freeway routes to Raleigh (I-40 near Benson, I-587/US 264 near Wilson), and you're entirely north of Raleigh itself and headed away from it. In other words, I-95 North to US 64 West is an illogical route to Raleigh that no one but a roadgeek wanting to rack up extra miles would take. And if US 64 serves a much more important purpose as the primary gateway to Nashville from the south, I think there's a good reason to sign Nashville, not Raleigh, facing northbound traffic, even if the primary westward control should be Raleigh to southbound traffic.
I would keep US 23 at I-64 as Louisa and Ashland. Both are significant towns in the region.
Having family in Floyd County and environs, if you get on US 23 from I-64 and you're not a coal truck, you aren't driving further south than Pikeville, usually.