So while looking around on Google Maps I ran across this street in West Brownsville, PA where the freight tracks run right down the middle of Main Street for a few blocks. From watching lots of train videos with my son I know this is commonly called "street running", but it's still interesting to see active tracks running down a residential street. Trolleys and passenger light rail are one thing, but I can't imagine looking out my front door at a freight train coming down my street within inches of my parked car. Here's a few GSV links:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0252515,-79.8889213,3a,66.8y,36.81h,90.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spqwM_0EUfm1dRWx83PV3Xg!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0252515,-79.8889213,3a,66.8y,36.81h,90.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spqwM_0EUfm1dRWx83PV3Xg!2e0?force=lite)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0287226,-79.8832887,3a,79.3y,33.78h,89.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1squLZj7Rjd5IAMI2Pxg8XRQ!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0287226,-79.8832887,3a,79.3y,33.78h,89.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1squLZj7Rjd5IAMI2Pxg8XRQ!2e0?force=lite)
...and one of the videos of the train passing through:
And finally...
(https://akronrrclub.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/wb01.jpg)
Years ago, I came across the one in New Albany, IN and it just scared the hell out of me. I can imagine it being terrifying to be driving along, and seeing a giant locomotive in your rearview. I guess people get used to it.
The Port of Tacoma, in Washington State, has several railways running down the center of the street, but they're not commonly used.
Renton, WA has a passenger railway running down Houser Way, one of their main arterial roads. The railway is, however, hardly ever used (only, very rarely, by specialty dinner trains, and by Boeing to ship airplane fuselages to their Renton plant).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fep2FFMv.png&hash=466a62a2d1cf6d8bb07d0d59c64b646a852b7aff)
Burlington NJ, i think the Riverline (which is light rail) uses CSX track there. So that means at night there is the potential for trains to use it that are freight oriented.
Until 1933, train tracks shared the right of way with US-41/M-28 in Marquette.
La Grange, Kentucky is another example. The CSXT Cincinnati-Louisville main line runs down Main Street. Here's a pic I took back in March:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi448.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq203%2Fyimitz%2Fla-grange-street-running_zpscdyoaqyv.jpg&hash=a8ba5ed2afd5d89d2a032fed238d9a234eb2a311)
CN (original Chicago and North Western) goes down a few blocks of street in Oconto, WI, too.
Mike
I think some of the NICTD commuter train line does this en route to South Bend, IN. I've only been on it to Hammond, IN and it wasn't doing it there. The line heads out south and east from under Millennium Park in Chicago.
Hell that used to be a lot more common... Usually those kind of rail alignments if they still exist are found in the northeast where street grid pre-dates automobile traffic.
Monticello IN used to have this, until they line was decommissioned, and the rails removed. Now it is just a gravel median, with two blocks of planters, between the two directions of travel. The only clue on the ground is that the street is called "Railroad St".
Quote from: KEVIN_224 on July 11, 2016, 10:13:32 AM
I think some of the NICTD commuter train line does this en route to South Bend, IN. I've only been on it to Hammond, IN and it wasn't doing it there. The line heads out south and east from under Millennium Park in Chicago.
Yes, in Michigan City for a few blocks along 11th Street:
https://goo.gl/maps/oiaNbpprMt92
Can also be found in Marietta, OH.
Downtown Pensacola had a freight train through the street downtown at least in 1992. I went to visit my brother who was stained there and my friend and I went to the bar, people we climbing on the train and it was moving
Ashland, Virginia, has that, including a train station in town, but there is a curb to either side of the tracks separating the street from the tracks. It's one of the more interesting parts of the Auto Train run.
Edited to add Street View link: https://goo.gl/maps/JSwzLtyQhVy
E. First St. in Monroe, Michigan used to have a track running along the north curb line of the street. It was removed in the late 70s, I think.
All aboard, the Polar Express! :bigass:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.weardale-railway.org.uk%2Fimages%2Fnews66-1.jpg&hash=140c0e27335346e7740eef3949f9a724fe3ba1f8)
Here's one in Colton, CA that I found awhile back. We were looking at old wigwag signals on Youtube, and we came across this one with both wigwags and street running:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0619618,-117.3240402,3a,66.8y,136.48h,90.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sumYbpapJpfyHcEIANNupCQ!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0619618,-117.3240402,3a,66.8y,136.48h,90.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sumYbpapJpfyHcEIANNupCQ!2e0?force=lite)
And video:
Gadsden, AL:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0123751,-85.9995128,3a,60y,291.23h,87.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2UzpMEHLybFUF95QhmBN7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Tampa, FL:
https://www.google.com/maps/@27.9501751,-82.4608819,3a,60y,82.35h,84.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFZBzIa9k_uER35OX-d0D9w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
6th street in Augusta, GA has a street running rail line that follows it for about 10 blocks
Salt Lake City has a public transportation rail system that at a minimum occupies the same space as some left turn lanes...
I've found this to be surprisingly common, actually. Georgia seems to be fond of it; I know of active street running segments in Augusta (https://goo.gl/maps/rCrqHsf9vv32) and Columbus (https://goo.gl/maps/A49A2EF4jGz)–both on 6th Street, coincidentally.
Fort Collins is another major example, along Mason St. I see from Street View that they've reconstructed it to give the tracks a dedicated median, but it used to be flush with the road surface: https://goo.gl/maps/43eNQGcFx5x
Quote from: Mapmikey on July 12, 2016, 08:40:28 AM
Salt Lake City has a public transportation rail system that at a minimum occupies the same space as some left turn lanes...
Phoenix has that too in some locations in downtown since they put in the light rail. But by that token wouldn't the street cars in San Francisco kinda sorta qualify if we're going beyond freight grade rails?
Trolleys and passenger light rail are pretty common, as is freight in industrial areas. I would think less common would be freight running for a significant distance down residential streets as in the West Brownsville and Colton examples.
How are we defining "street running" here? Are we defining it where it's simply a rail line that runs down a street? In this case, several public-transit lines across the country would qualify, including the ones already mentioned.
Or are we defining it more narrowly in that it's a rail line that runs down the middle of a street and where non-train traffic can use the same "lane" that the train does? In many cases, particularly with the rail transit lines, the line may run down the street but non-train traffic is not authorized to use the lane. This is also the case with the CSX tracks through Ashland, VA that 1995hoo mentioned earlier...vehicle traffic cannot use the space the tracks are in.
That's why I noted there is a curb to either side. I wasn't sure whether it's exactly the same thing. Sure is interesting to see when you're on the train through Ashland, though.
The old street running in Lafayette, Indiana was a regular heavy-rail line that shared space with traffic, pre-relocation of the line to along the river. Near the end of this video (as well as in the middle), you can see (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Fdih663BI) traffic following the train. That would seem to be literal "street running."
Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2016, 01:11:02 PM
How are we defining "street running" here? Are we defining it where it's simply a rail line that runs down a street? In this case, several public-transit lines across the country would qualify, including the ones already mentioned.
Or are we defining it more narrowly in that it's a rail line that runs down the middle of a street and where non-train traffic can use the same "lane" that the train does? In many cases, particularly with the rail transit lines, the line may run down the street but non-train traffic is not authorized to use the lane. This is also the case with the CSX tracks through Ashland, VA that 1995hoo mentioned earlier...vehicle traffic cannot use the space the tracks are in.
This is why the OP said "Trolleys and passenger light rail are one thing, but..."
I've simply been assuming this thread was only intended for freight or long-haul passenger trains.
Quote from: kphoger on July 12, 2016, 05:44:32 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 12, 2016, 01:11:02 PM
How are we defining "street running" here? Are we defining it where it's simply a rail line that runs down a street? In this case, several public-transit lines across the country would qualify, including the ones already mentioned.
Or are we defining it more narrowly in that it's a rail line that runs down the middle of a street and where non-train traffic can use the same "lane" that the train does? In many cases, particularly with the rail transit lines, the line may run down the street but non-train traffic is not authorized to use the lane. This is also the case with the CSX tracks through Ashland, VA that 1995hoo mentioned earlier...vehicle traffic cannot use the space the tracks are in.
This is why the OP said "Trolleys and passenger light rail are one thing, but..."
I've simply been assuming this thread was only intended for freight or long-haul passenger trains.
Yes, there are plenty of trolley and light rail tracks running down streets out there, although dwindling (trolleys at least). Also 'street running' would have no separation, with traffic sharing the 'lane' with the tracks in the pavement. Here's the 'definition' for what it's worth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_running (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_running)
And then of course there's the tunnel in Whittier, AK. Hopefully I'll get there someday. Sharing bridges and tunnels with trains looks like fun too:
https://www.google.com/maps/@60.7772559,-148.73259,3a,66.8y,292.38h,93.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sN2xfsCTHhTwbbGTpxDwdnw!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@60.7772559,-148.73259,3a,66.8y,292.38h,93.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sN2xfsCTHhTwbbGTpxDwdnw!2e0?force=lite)
One of the most notorious street-running examples can be found in Oakland, CA, where the UP (former SP) main San Jose-Sacramento line, used by freights, intercity Amtrak (Coast Starlight, San Francisco Zephyr), and the intercity California Amtrak use a double (and occasionally triple-) track right down the middle of the Embarcadero -- right past Jack London Square, a principal local tourist center. Trains of all types roll down that street 24/7; Amtrak trains must negotiate a series of in-street switches to get to the boarding tracks of the Oakland passenger station just south of the Square. Several major hotels front on the Embarcadero along this section; it's always amusing to see tourists or other hotel guests emerge from their parking garages onto the street -- and to observe the WTF expressions on their faces when they see a train coming only a few yards away! (yeah, I know it's "schadenfreude" on my part -- but this has been going on at this location for about 90 years!)
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 13, 2016, 12:24:05 AM
And then of course there's the tunnel in Whittier, AK. Hopefully I'll get there someday. Sharing bridges and tunnels with trains looks like fun too:
https://www.google.com/maps/@60.7772559,-148.73259,3a,66.8y,292.38h,93.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sN2xfsCTHhTwbbGTpxDwdnw!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@60.7772559,-148.73259,3a,66.8y,292.38h,93.94t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sN2xfsCTHhTwbbGTpxDwdnw!2e0?force=lite)
Yeah, that hadn't occurred to me because it was originally a rail-only tunnel, only recently converted to allow auto/truck traffic. Also, you don't have trains and motor vehicles sharing the tunnel at once -- eastbound motor vehicles, westbound motor vehicles, and trains get their own time slots.
http://www.alaskaroads.com/photos-whittier-access.htm
Baltimore City once had a fair amount of street running on railroad tracks that were effectively spurs, but I believe nearly all of them are now gone (remains on Wicomico Street here (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2756364,-76.6340816,3a,75y,187.45h,69.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8MTkrlYRSOG-JUffpslF1A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)).
In the District of Columbia, the CSX Georgetown Branch terminated on K Street, N.W. under the Whitehurst Freeway (U.S. 29), though there are no remnants in the streets left (though this bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9251553,-77.1076698,3a,75y,129.83h,79.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si8oJDG35Ta0gU0Vh3h9Dlw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1) (not street running) was converted to a multi-use trail), and in the Southwest industrial area of town, near the Nationals ballpark is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8694763,-77.0123317,3a,75y,130.59h,73.21t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYDxqWm0UoUIdoCm3Z9LYCA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) remnant of track.
Quote from: sparker on July 13, 2016, 03:05:14 AM
One of the most notorious street-running examples can be found in Oakland, CA, where the UP (former SP) main San Jose-Sacramento line, used by freights, intercity Amtrak (Coast Starlight, San Francisco Zephyr), and the intercity California Amtrak use a double (and occasionally triple-) track right down the middle of the Embarcadero -- right past Jack London Square, a principal local tourist center. Trains of all types roll down that street 24/7; Amtrak trains must negotiate a series of in-street switches to get to the boarding tracks of the Oakland passenger station just south of the Square. Several major hotels front on the Embarcadero along this section; it's always amusing to see tourists or other hotel guests emerge from their parking garages onto the street -- and to observe the WTF expressions on their faces when they see a train coming only a few yards away! (yeah, I know it's "schadenfreude" on my part -- but this has been going on at this location for about 90 years!)
I note the plastic pylons along the yellow lines at some intersections, discouraging left-turning traffic from using the railroad as a left-turn lane when the queue builds up.
Quote from: sparker on July 13, 2016, 03:05:14 AM
One of the most notorious street-running examples can be found in Oakland, CA, where the UP (former SP) main San Jose-Sacramento line, used by freights, intercity Amtrak (Coast Starlight, San Francisco Zephyr), and the intercity California Amtrak use a double (and occasionally triple-) track right down the middle of the Embarcadero -- right past Jack London Square, a principal local tourist center. Trains of all types roll down that street 24/7; Amtrak trains must negotiate a series of in-street switches to get to the boarding tracks of the Oakland passenger station just south of the Square. Several major hotels front on the Embarcadero along this section; it's always amusing to see tourists or other hotel guests emerge from their parking garages onto the street -- and to observe the WTF expressions on their faces when they see a train coming only a few yards away! (yeah, I know it's "schadenfreude" on my part -- but this has been going on at this location for about 90 years!)
Yes, I'd say this more than qualifies:
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7955798,-122.2774897,3a,66.8y,88.25h,86.97t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbZI_wcaksoipJ3msPEBJog!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7955798,-122.2774897,3a,66.8y,88.25h,86.97t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sbZI_wcaksoipJ3msPEBJog!2e0?force=lite)
St. Marys, WV (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3900479,-81.2068748,3a,75y,26.61h,84.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQfMMB-S1tG-4MX3t9QGeJw!2e0!7i3328!8i1664)
Elizabeth, PA (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.273049,-79.8872653,3a,75y,207.2h,70.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB_Ach5BEgpQcywgkdyNA5Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Until about 15 years ago, the Embarcadero street-running line in Oakland was only one of two in that immediate area; the second was two blocks away on 3rd Street (Embarcadero was an alternate name for the 1st Street trajectory). The Embarcadero line was originally Southern Pacific (SP), while the parallel tracks were part of Western Pacific (WP). The WP Oakland passenger station was actually at 3rd and Broadway, right on the corner. There were no separate "platform tracks" at that station for passenger boarding or unloading; they boarded passenger trains right in the middle of 3rd street; RR personnel directed automotive traffic away from that street segment during the boarding process. WP, according to lore, had an unwritten agreement with the City of Oakland to avoid blocking Broadway whenever possible; the eastbound California Zephyr, the "flagship" passenger train on the line (which technically began its journey at the waterfront Oakland Mole, picking up ferry passengers from San Francisco there) pulled up to the station slowly so the front of the lead locomotive (always an EMD FP7, for rail buffs!) sat right at the Broadway crosswalk. The 3rd Street street-running arrangement was about a mile and a half in length.
WP was "merged" with UP in early 1983 (it was actually a $90M cash purchase) well after passenger operations over that line had ceased; the 3rd street line was freight only after the inception of Amtrak in 1971. UP had done another "merger" with SP in 1996 (more or less a "fire sale" of SP to UP by Phil Anschutz, who had bought the line in 1988), and decided that two parallel street-running tracks through Oakland was one too many to maintain, so the former WP 3rd Street tracks were taken up circa 2001 and a connecting track between the lines installed a couple of miles southeast.
Wikipedia has a list with examples from around the world, and a comprehensive list of U.S. examples: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_running#United_States
Depending on the definition, a bridge/tunnel shared between trains and buses could count. There's a few U.S. examples, like the Downtown Seattle Transit Tunnel or the Tillikum Bridge in Portland.
Quote from: jakeroot on July 11, 2016, 03:16:17 AM
The Port of Tacoma, in Washington State, has several railways running down the center of the street, but they're not commonly used.
Renton, WA has a passenger railway running down Houser Way, one of their main arterial roads. The railway is, however, hardly ever used (only, very rarely, by specialty dinner trains, and by Boeing to ship airplane fuselages to their Renton plant).
Sadly, the dinner train has been gone for a few years and the tracks up north are being converted to a bike trail (with a loud minority whining about a proposal to turn them partially back to rail transit come 2024...), so the street-running segment through Renton is rarely used at unscheduled intervals. It'd be nice to know when a 737 fuselage was going on the tracks.
Hancock St in New Bern NC here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1084509,-77.0412327,3a,75y,213.51h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCOoUYaxsyr1Gx3xY8Z48-A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DCOoUYaxsyr1Gx3xY8Z48-A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D300.28473%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
There's one in Downtown Anaheim, CA along Santa Ana Street and Olive Street.
Addendum to my Oakland post -- if you think a normal, everyday UP freight or Amtrak passenger train on the Embarcadero elicits WTF reactions from the tourists, you should have seen it back in 1984 when the steam "Daylight" passenger locomotive 4449 came through town, 12-car matching train in tow, on its way to the New Orleans World's Fair of that year. With a chime whistle that sounds like bagpipes on steroids -- and sounding like the biggest & loudest teakettle in the world -- folks on the sidewalk and in cars were literally slack-jawed! The only people not surprised were the RR "foamers" (myself included) who followed the train around the Bay Area (actually, I took some time off work and followed it from Klamath Falls back to San Jose, and later -- after it did several days of excursion work between SF and SJ -- all the way to Yuma!), who were virtually occupying Jack London Square. Fun times back when the tracks belonged to SP; UP no longer allows steam excursions other than with their own two (soon to be 3) operating "heritage" locomotives to use their tracks (except via trackage rights of other lines). Even though they absorbed SP back in 1996, they don't consider SP 4449 to be one of their own.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 11, 2016, 07:36:15 PM
Here's one in Colton, CA that I found awhile back. We were looking at old wigwag signals on Youtube, and we came across this one with both wigwags and street running:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0619618,-117.3240402,3a,66.8y,136.48h,90.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sumYbpapJpfyHcEIANNupCQ!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0619618,-117.3240402,3a,66.8y,136.48h,90.83t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sumYbpapJpfyHcEIANNupCQ!2e0?force=lite)
And video:
I didn't think wigwags still existed, much less one in good working condition!
Still plenty of wig-wags on the former SP agricultural branches in the San Joaquin Valley. Most of these branches are now being run by short-line operators; these tend to leave extant signaling in place, usually replacing them with simple crossbucks if & when they fail. About the only time they're upgraded to gates is if that is subsidized by state/local agencies.
Not mentioned above: a line that runs along Roosevelt Street in Albany, GA.
East end (https://goo.gl/maps/jhY3wbTKUKS2).
West end (https://goo.gl/maps/mxpnC2ioKhu).
An interesting bit about this one is at the intersection with Jefferson Street. Previously there was just a simple crossing, as this GSV from Roosevelt Street, 2012 (https://goo.gl/maps/KKYPrusLUQD2) shows - but it also shows construction underway for adding a wide island, gantries and crossing arms that the GSV for Jefferson (https://goo.gl/maps/aBU1ayEZJxj) shows in place. The "overlapping" Left Turn Only lanes are also a somewhat different touch!
In case it didn't make the national news, the street-running UP trackage along the Embarcadero in Oakland recently was the locale of an unfortunate incident in which two members of the longstanding Bay Area jazz/rock group Tower of Power were struck by an Amtrak train (one of the "Capitols" that run between San Jose and Sacramento); they were waiting for a freight to pass on one of the tracks and proceeded to walk across the tracks only to be struck by the Amtrak train heading in the opposite direction on the adjacent track (the musicians were en route to a club gig about a block away). Despite taking a direct hit from the train, which was traveling about 20 mph at the time, they survived with some serious injury. The tracks and the street in which they run are wide open to the public; so far there hasn't been much of an outcry to somehow isolate the tracks from their surroundings (as a long time area resident, I'm as surprised as anyone that such rumblings haven't been heard!); the fact that the victims were jaywalking may have something to do with that.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on July 11, 2016, 01:24:27 AM
So while looking around on Google Maps I ran across this street in West Brownsville, PA where the freight tracks run right down the middle of Main Street for a few blocks. From watching lots of train videos with my son I know this is commonly called "street running", but it's still interesting to see active tracks running down a residential street. Trolleys and passenger light rail are one thing, but I can't imagine looking out my front door at a freight train coming down my street within inches of my parked car. Here's a few GSV links:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0252515,-79.8889213,3a,66.8y,36.81h,90.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spqwM_0EUfm1dRWx83PV3Xg!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0252515,-79.8889213,3a,66.8y,36.81h,90.25t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1spqwM_0EUfm1dRWx83PV3Xg!2e0?force=lite)
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0287226,-79.8832887,3a,79.3y,33.78h,89.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1squLZj7Rjd5IAMI2Pxg8XRQ!2e0?force=lite (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0287226,-79.8832887,3a,79.3y,33.78h,89.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1squLZj7Rjd5IAMI2Pxg8XRQ!2e0?force=lite)
...and one of the videos of the train passing through:
And finally...
(https://akronrrclub.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/wb01.jpg)
I have relatives in West Brownsville, and the trains pass by fairly often, but are limited to about 10 mph. Still weird to see a train right between two houses!
Here is another view of Main St. in West Brownsville, PA (no train running down the street, though)...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8045/29277239325_d3631f48b7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/LB8vfn)
West Brownsville, PA (https://flic.kr/p/LB8vfn) by Jon Dawson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/jmd41280/), on Flickr
Fayetteville, NC has a couple of examples of street running with both styles mentioned above. The CSX Vander Spur runs down the middle of Russell Street for almost a mile or so from downtown out to near Eastern Blvd. (US 301/Bus. 95). The main A line runs down the middle of middle of Winslow Street for 3 or 4 blocks just south of the Amtrak station. In both of these cases, the tracks are separated from the roadway by a curb, so you can not actually drive on the tracks. Just north of downtown, however, the NS line from Raleigh and Fuquay run down the middle of Hillsboro Street for several blocks. The tracks are literally in the pavement with only the rails exposed. A yellow line on either side of the tracks serves as a median to deter people from driving on the tracks, but there is nothing to really stop you. I think the NS line gets a round trip train on weekdays from Raleigh to Fayetteville, so it does get regular rail traffic.
A different kind of situation in Ballard, Seattle: A major bike trail is forced onto the street because of a near-defunct railroad that keeps blocking a full project.
(https://i.imgur.com/6UHeFNr.jpg)
Does the double-yellow line separate same-direction traffic? (Bikes and cars in one direction)
Seems like the double yellow should be between the bike lanes (as it is now), and a wider white buffer between traffic. At least if we are to reserve yellow for same direction traffic opposing directions.
(For the record, I recognize that the bike lane was simply laid down over the old lane, but the double yellow should have been removed if I'm interpreting the situation correctly.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 27, 2020, 06:30:02 PM
Does the double-yellow line separate same-direction traffic? (Bikes and cars in one direction)
Seems like the double yellow should be between the bike lanes (as it is now), and a wider white buffer between traffic. At least if we are to reserve yellow for same direction traffic.
(For the record, I recognize that the bike lane was simply laid down over the old lane, but the double yellow should have been removed if I'm interpreting the situation correctly.
The street is one way for cars and two way for bikes and trains.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
When it comes to rail branches such as the one pictured, there's a binary situation: it's either in operation or it isn't; the tracks are owned by the RR, and if there's a paying customer on the line, it'll remain in use and legally can't be removed (this is per FRRA/USDOT rules) without consent of all parties. Of course, if it costs more to operate than the revenue received, the RR may elect to remove the tracks and provide truck service (usually by contract) to the customer. The fact that the tracks likely date from the early part of the 20th century and are still there attest to the fact that there's enough business to maintain the tracks (which can be expensive, since pavement must be torn up and replaced if track work is necessary). If urban advocates think removal of freeways is a difficult process, taking on privately owned and legally protected rail facilities is considerably worse -- the rail companies (in the case of Seattle, either BNSF or UP) can in effect raise their middle finger at such plans with impunity.
Quote from: PurdueBill on July 12, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
The old street running in Lafayette, Indiana was a regular heavy-rail line that shared space with traffic, pre-relocation of the line to along the river. Near the end of this video (as well as in the middle), you can see (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8Fdih663BI) traffic following the train. That would seem to be literal "street running."
Yep, until both the 5th Street railroad and the railroad that ran diagonally NE to SW through Lafayette were relocated in the late 1990s or so. The 5th Street railroad was also an Amtrak route, so Amtrak trains would stop in the middle of town (halting east-west traffic) to load and unload passengers. Those railroad tracks were embedded in 5th Street for about 150 years.
Quote from: sparker on February 28, 2020, 02:40:13 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
When it comes to rail branches such as the one pictured, there's a binary situation: it's either in operation or it isn't; the tracks are owned by the RR, and if there's a paying customer on the line, it'll remain in use and legally can't be removed (this is per FRRA/USDOT rules) without consent of all parties. Of course, if it costs more to operate than the revenue received, the RR may elect to remove the tracks and provide truck service (usually by contract) to the customer. The fact that the tracks likely date from the early part of the 20th century and are still there attest to the fact that there's enough business to maintain the tracks (which can be expensive, since pavement must be torn up and replaced if track work is necessary). If urban advocates think removal of freeways is a difficult process, taking on privately owned and legally protected rail facilities is considerably worse -- the rail companies (in the case of Seattle, either BNSF or UP) can in effect raise their middle finger at such plans with impunity.
This specific situation is different. This section is the "Missing Link" in the Burke-Gilman Trail, a long rail trail that was built in the 1970s/1980s along the abandoned Seattle Lakeshore and Eastern Railway. While there is some industry left in Ballard, it is largely maritime and does not rely on these tracks, which now belong to a shortline railroad whose sole purpose is to "use" these tracks occasionally to prevent them from being decommissioned. The business owners do not want the bike trails (going so far as to assault a city councilmember when he suggested them) but the rest of the community are in favor of it.
Quote from: Finrod on February 28, 2020, 01:59:28 PM
Yep, until both the 5th Street railroad and the railroad that ran diagonally NE to SW through Lafayette were relocated in the late 1990s or so. The 5th Street railroad was also an Amtrak route, so Amtrak trains would stop in the middle of town (halting east-west traffic) to load and unload passengers. Those railroad tracks were embedded in 5th Street for about 150 years.
Here is a site with pictures and some video of Amtrak trains going down 5th Street:
http://indianarailroads.org/board/index.php?topic=12235.0
Quote from: jakeroot on February 27, 2020, 06:30:02 PM
Does the double-yellow line separate same-direction traffic? (Bikes and cars in one direction)
Seems like the double yellow should be between the bike lanes (as it is now), and a wider white buffer between traffic. At least if we are to reserve yellow for same direction traffic.
(For the record, I recognize that the bike lane was simply laid down over the old lane, but the double yellow should have been removed if I'm interpreting the situation correctly.
You are correct, it should be white. I even noticed this while working on a minor signage/crosswalk improvement in that area, however we decided to just leave it yellow since the road will be returning to its previous two-way operation anyway once the missing link is complete, which is supposed to be later this year! (Fingers crossed)
Quote from: Bruce on February 28, 2020, 02:07:11 PM
Quote from: sparker on February 28, 2020, 02:40:13 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
When it comes to rail branches such as the one pictured, there's a binary situation: it's either in operation or it isn't; the tracks are owned by the RR, and if there's a paying customer on the line, it'll remain in use and legally can't be removed (this is per FRRA/USDOT rules) without consent of all parties. Of course, if it costs more to operate than the revenue received, the RR may elect to remove the tracks and provide truck service (usually by contract) to the customer. The fact that the tracks likely date from the early part of the 20th century and are still there attest to the fact that there's enough business to maintain the tracks (which can be expensive, since pavement must be torn up and replaced if track work is necessary). If urban advocates think removal of freeways is a difficult process, taking on privately owned and legally protected rail facilities is considerably worse -- the rail companies (in the case of Seattle, either BNSF or UP) can in effect raise their middle finger at such plans with impunity.
This specific situation is different. This section is the "Missing Link" in the Burke-Gilman Trail, a long rail trail that was built in the 1970s/1980s along the abandoned Seattle Lakeshore and Eastern Railway. While there is some industry left in Ballard, it is largely maritime and does not rely on these tracks, which now belong to a shortline railroad whose sole purpose is to "use" these tracks occasionally to prevent them from being decommissioned. The business owners do not want the bike trails (going so far as to assault a city councilmember when he suggested them) but the rest of the community are in favor of it.
OK -- this begs three related questions: Is the short line that ostensibly operates these tracks owned by the local businesses that have lined up against the presence of the bike trails? It's difficult to imagine a RR corporation set up to simply run up and down the line without generating any online revenue unless it's simply a technical ruse by said businesses to "gaslight" the bike-trail concept. And second -- what is there about the presence of bike trails that has resulted in the businesses' opposition to their deployment -- is their development dependent upon track removal or, as the picture seems to illustrate, can the bike trail extend alongside the tracks? And the third -- are the opposing businesses in question planning to actually employ the tracks as part of their future businesses? If the rail-to-trail full-length concept was planned speculatively prior to actual acquisition or ceding of the rail property -- and, as described, the section in question is a "missing link" to connecting the dedicated ROW's seemingly desired by the trail advocates, then what's happening is an impasse. Bike trail supporters would need to legally prove that the operation of the track segment is not only unnecessary for the conduct of the business (and it's unlikely that the courts would accept simply statistical data regarding the commercial characteristics of the neighborhood) -- but that the current operation of that trackage is fraudulent. That'll be a tough one; as long as some cargo is being delivered or shipped from at least one of the on-line entities, the precedent has been to consider the line in use and thus "untouchable" from a legal or administrative standpoint. One would have thought that the planners of the rail-to-trail here would have had their ducks fully in a row prior to making promises about the complete deployment of their corridor. The old adage about making assumptions certainly applies in this instance! The trail may have to consider an alternate alignment in the vicinity of the trackage if some sort of agreement can't be successfully reached.
Second Street in St. Louis, MO (https://goo.gl/maps/zfxy8fM9HxcJjeA3A), at least used to have street running. There was another section on 2nd south of the Anheuser-Busch Brewery that went under I-55.
Quote from: stevashe on February 28, 2020, 02:58:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 27, 2020, 06:30:02 PM
Does the double-yellow line separate same-direction traffic? (Bikes and cars in one direction)
Seems like the double yellow should be between the bike lanes (as it is now), and a wider white buffer between traffic. At least if we are to reserve yellow for same direction traffic.
(For the record, I recognize that the bike lane was simply laid down over the old lane, but the double yellow should have been removed if I'm interpreting the situation correctly.
You are correct, it should be white. I even noticed this while working on a minor signage/crosswalk improvement in that area, however we decided to just leave it yellow since the road will be returning to its previous two-way operation anyway once the missing link is complete, which is supposed to be later this year! (Fingers crossed)
For the record, there was a typo in that post. Should have said, "...reserve yellow for
opposing traffic", not same direction traffic. Though I'm guessing you figured that out.
Regardless, I appreciate the explanation.
Quote from: sparker on February 28, 2020, 05:16:07 PM
OK -- this begs three related questions: Is the short line that ostensibly operates these tracks owned by the local businesses that have lined up against the presence of the bike trails? It's difficult to imagine a RR corporation set up to simply run up and down the line without generating any online revenue unless it's simply a technical ruse by said businesses to "gaslight" the bike-trail concept. And second -- what is there about the presence of bike trails that has resulted in the businesses' opposition to their deployment -- is their development dependent upon track removal or, as the picture seems to illustrate, can the bike trail extend alongside the tracks? And the third -- are the opposing businesses in question planning to actually employ the tracks as part of their future businesses? If the rail-to-trail full-length concept was planned speculatively prior to actual acquisition or ceding of the rail property -- and, as described, the section in question is a "missing link" to connecting the dedicated ROW's seemingly desired by the trail advocates, then what's happening is an impasse. Bike trail supporters would need to legally prove that the operation of the track segment is not only unnecessary for the conduct of the business (and it's unlikely that the courts would accept simply statistical data regarding the commercial characteristics of the neighborhood) -- but that the current operation of that trackage is fraudulent. That'll be a tough one; as long as some cargo is being delivered or shipped from at least one of the on-line entities, the precedent has been to consider the line in use and thus "untouchable" from a legal or administrative standpoint. One would have thought that the planners of the rail-to-trail here would have had their ducks fully in a row prior to making promises about the complete deployment of their corridor. The old adage about making assumptions certainly applies in this instance! The trail may have to consider an alternate alignment in the vicinity of the trackage if some sort of agreement can't be successfully reached.
The tracks in question are owned by the Ballard Terminal Rail Company, named after the neighborhood they're located in. According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballard_Terminal_Railroad), the company was formed in 1997 when BNSF abandoned the spur by the three remaining companies that were being serviced along the route. The article also states that as of 2008, only one company (Salmon Bay Sand and Gravel) still uses the rail line and this appears to still be the case today. However the rail company has expanded to two other short routes in the area, one between Woodinville and Snohomish, which is also the site of a proposed trail, and one in the Puyallup area, which appears to already have a parallel trail (I'm beginning to see a pattern here...)
Anyway, about the implications for trail development, yes, the track are actually legitimately used, though only at night so one would be forgiven for mistaking them as abandoned. However, the planners did indeed "have their ducks in a row" as you say since yes, the trail can go in alongside the tracks without necessitating removal, and the current iteration of the construction plans shows this, and previous ones did as well, as far as I'm aware.
The opposition of businesses in the area (both those using the rail line and not) seems to stem from not wanting a bike trail in the first place, which seems somewhat reasonable given the industrial nature of the area surrounding the missing link. However, their stated reason for opposition according to this article from 2003 (https://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Burke-Gilman-extension-as-seen-by-business-1112162.php) is concerns over "safety and liability issues inherent in the convergence of trains, trucks, cyclists, and pedestrians" but I'd think having a proper trail to formalize conflict points and crossings between bikes, pedestrians, trains, and trucks would be safer than the mess we have now! Of course I'm sure there would be an increase in bike/ped traffic but I'm sure there's already significant usage now what with the trail continuing on either end.
At any rate the point seems to be moot now since construction has started. The trail will alongside the streets of NW 54th St and NW Market St, and run along both the tracks and the street on Shilshole Ave NW and NW 45th St (where the picture is from). More infor on the project can be found here (https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs/programs/bike-program/ballard-multimodal-corridor).
There was a unique situation in Savannah, GA. River Rd., mostly narrow and cobblestone, had an active railroad running through an "old town" district. When freight service was abandoned, the city turned it into a tourist trolley (no wires, only one car). That appears to have been (temporarily) shut down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Street_Streetcar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Street_Streetcar)
See also this Google MyMap (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1w4VjRvzLx9dQzswYVseJrfcXvOM5L40N&usp=sharing) for 9 former street-running locations.
This doesn't really count, but a freight rail line travels in the median of US-64 in Tulsa for more than three miles, which I thought was interesting for something that isn't public transit.
(https://i.imgur.com/AdtxwSv.png)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2020, 02:31:37 AM
This doesn't really count, but a freight rail line travels in the median of US-64 in Tulsa for more than three miles, which I thought was interesting for something that isn't public transit.
(https://i.imgur.com/AdtxwSv.png)
Reminds me of the 10 Freeway in Los Angeles, where there is a rail line right down the middle that's only used very occasionally:
https://youtu.be/xp-b4Ce4Mf4
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! Great video; there must have been a huge number of WTF moments with drivers on I-10 that day!
Quote from: sparker on March 08, 2020, 05:38:51 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wow! Great video; there must have been a huge number of WTF moments with drivers on I-10 that day!
"This is the most ridiculous left lane camper I've ever seen!"
:D
Quote from: jakeroot on March 07, 2020, 02:21:53 PM
Reminds me of the 10 Freeway in Los Angeles, where there is a rail line right down the middle that's only used very occasionally:
That rail line in the median of the 10 is Metrolink's San Bernardino commuter rail line. Used a lot more than occasionally! There's even a station (Cal State LA) located within the 10/710 interchange as the rail line is transitioning from the north side of the ROW to the median: https://goo.gl/maps/6qcVrtAe8fpfD41K7
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on March 09, 2020, 10:47:07 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 07, 2020, 02:21:53 PM
Reminds me of the 10 Freeway in Los Angeles, where there is a rail line right down the middle that's only used very occasionally:
That rail line in the median of the 10 is Metrolink's San Bernardino commuter rail line. Used a lot more than occasionally! There's even a station (Cal State LA) located within the 10/710 interchange as the rail line is transitioning from the north side of the ROW to the median: https://goo.gl/maps/6qcVrtAe8fpfD41K7
The line down the middle of I-10/San Bernardino Freeway was there long before any roadways flanked it; it was the main Pacific Electric (electric interurban greater L.A.-serving SP subsidiary) line east from central L.A., ending up in San Bernardino. The Ramona Parkway was constructed by expanding the PE ROW outward; it extended out to Rosemead Blvd. by the mid-50's, even though the state highway (then US 60/70/99) diverged onto parallel Garvey Ave. in Monterey Park; the routes were moved to the parkway by 1957, at which time it was renamed to its current monicker. The line was one of the routes traveled by the "Big Red Cars", massive self-propelled passenger cars that formed the backbone of the PE fleet. Passenger service began being cut back in the early '50's due to diminishing ridership (parent SP was also trying to rid itself of most of its passenger service at the time); the last service on the line was in 1960. The line was retained as a local freight server by SP (a couple of major lumber yards were trackside in El Monte and Covina), but was upgraded in 1970 as a second egress line for SP east of downtown L.A.; a new junction with the main SP line in El Monte was built then, and when Amtrak service began over SP in '71, the line was used for the westbound Sunset Limited to avoid freight traffic at the railroad's then-main container facility east of the L.A. River. Even then, use was limited to the daily Amtrak train until Metrolink purchased it from SP in 1987, opening the line to commute service in 1992. Today, both Amtrak and Metrolink passenger service use the line; all freights utilize the original SP line through Alhambra to the north. Incidentally, the best free advertising Metrolink can have is the sight of their trains whizzing by at 75mph while traffic on adjacent I-10 is inching along bumper-to-bumper.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2020, 02:31:37 AM
...a freight rail line travels in the median of US-64 in Tulsa for more than three miles
Not only that, but there used to be a spur that branched off of there. The tracks crossed the WB lanes -- and an off-ramp --
at grade. The branch ran north, between backyards of a residential neighborhood to get to the Tulsa State Fair grounds. The route it took is marked by trees, and a pave-over in the off-ramp is still visible on GSV. https://goo.gl/maps/dARZw4sUF3bhPVbBA (https://goo.gl/maps/dARZw4sUF3bhPVbBA)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2020, 02:31:37 AM
This doesn't really count, but a freight rail line travels in the median of US-64 in Tulsa for more than three miles, which I thought was interesting for something that isn't public transit.
(https://i.imgur.com/AdtxwSv.png)
There's a similar situation on the MoPac Freeway in Austin.
Quote from: lepidopteran on March 10, 2020, 03:26:58 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 07, 2020, 02:31:37 AM
...a freight rail line travels in the median of US-64 in Tulsa for more than three miles
Not only that, but there used to be a spur that branched off of there. The tracks crossed the WB lanes -- and an off-ramp -- at grade. The branch ran north, between backyards of a residential neighborhood to get to the Tulsa State Fair grounds. The route it took is marked by trees, and a pave-over in the off-ramp is still visible on GSV. https://goo.gl/maps/dARZw4sUF3bhPVbBA (https://goo.gl/maps/dARZw4sUF3bhPVbBA)
Appears the foundations for a former cantilver and crossing gate for the WB lanes may still be there. (https://goo.gl/maps/3q73rysMYAViBeDt7)
Santa Ana Street in Anaheim has a street running rail. I posted about it on the Pacific Southwest board:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33805.msg2869902#new
Quote from: catch22 on July 11, 2016, 07:35:28 AM
La Grange, Kentucky is another example. The CSXT Cincinnati-Louisville main line runs down Main Street. Here's a pic I took back in March:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi448.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq203%2Fyimitz%2Fla-grange-street-running_zpscdyoaqyv.jpg&hash=a8ba5ed2afd5d89d2a032fed238d9a234eb2a311)
Live video of his section of street running is a featured location on the Virtual Railfan website. Search for 'la grange ky railcam' on YT to see it.
Mike