I'm looking for examples of cities with the opposite of a simple grid system :)
I'll start with my home city of Kitchener-Waterloo (technically two cities, but if it wasn't for the signs, you would think it's one city) :-D
The cardinal directions are simply chaos!
1) King St (which is one continuous road), going from Cambridge to St. Jacobs, is King St E, King St W, King St S, and King St N
2) There are multiple intersections of roads with the same cardinal direction. Examples include:
King St E/River Rd E in Kitchener
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiAvADyM.png&hash=0291ac910eeff66bec73b0e26faf21e0bfd2abc8)
Highland Rd W/Westmount Rd W in Kitchener
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLKCn67b.png&hash=4fdc77df961128b529471e1ce631340ddef54896)
3) Kitchener in particular has cardinal directions which simply don't match actual compass directions:
Examples include Lancaster St E and W, which is clearly N-S!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FD9swlCb.png&hash=99c7560287ad18bd7ec0ca84535b453afaf154c2)
Victoria St S and N, which is much more E-W (Note: in this picture the route deviates slightly from Victoria St due to a road closure)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEU8d7ue.png&hash=a54bd3891be01e089fb72c629d3fe8ff955bfcd4)
But one example in Waterloo is University Ave E, which makes a large U-turn on it's east end
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Ft4VqhbL.png&hash=ee15a8525e493eb85a5ae79cc110a19962833d06)
4) Parallel streets sometimes have different cardinal directions
Victoria St S and Highland Rd W in Kitchener
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fu3OiQgK.png&hash=a6667dd44cd7b8b785140d64d23c1994599bed16)
And now getting away from cardinal directions...
5) Highway 8 and RR 8 share the same exit. This has confused a fair number of relatives coming to visit our house!
This GSV is on the 401 WB exit for the numbers 8's
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fn3rZ5rN.png&hash=9de25942062201be034c298529bce9b95697b7b2)
6) Highway 8 was built on top of a portion of King St E in Kitchener, resulting in this strange situation where the street changes name to Weber St E, and there's also a small cul-de-sac still named King St E. This was definitely confusing when I first moved here :)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FOz74j64.png&hash=3fd5706e8b3224c375804726b275b677b3b716dd)
7) Most of the roads are not straight and meet at strange angles.
Just look at that map! (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.4517115,-80.5028961,13z) You never know where a given road will go :-D
------------
So, what cities do you know of that have a odd street networks?
New York had a crazy colonial era non grid in lower Manhattan, in what "was once New Amsterdam".. anyone get the reference.
Then full on grid north of Greenwich village
The central business district of Seattle is a collision of three competing grids that are aligned to cardinal north, one man's claim on Elliott Bay, and another man's claim on Elliott Bay:
(https://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/6228198/il_570xN.227605882.jpg)
And then there's the neighborhoods that were absorbed as independent cities, like Ballard.
Boston... nuff said
London, UK.
Barnstable, MA where I currently reside. The main roads are pretty compact, at least in Hyannis. Topography however dictates where the roads can go.
Quote from: national highway 1 on July 30, 2016, 02:07:00 AM
London, UK.
Pretty much all of Europe. At least by American standards.
Quote from: mariethefoxy on July 30, 2016, 02:02:04 AM
Boston... nuff said
Boston is a legendary cluster.
Honorable mention goes to San Diego, that city's grid is basically forgotten outside of the downtown area.
Not as intense as some of the other ones posted, but St. Catharines, ON has an interesting street network. The arterial roads form (more or less) a grid, but with the E-W roads skewed to match Lake Ontario.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8moeF2X.png&hash=1950c16d4f8e20ec5e52dd87bc343d9a5e08b361)
There are also a few interesting intersections.
1) Welland Ave and Lake St, right next to Lake St and James St. (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.1619402,-79.250481,18z) These two closely-spaced intersections require interesting signage and signal phasing to make it function as one-intersection.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FT5wkPXW.png&hash=7cc2b0a3f46ea4e02ccf4f5763d1ec3c9f329e5e)
GSV of the signage heading south on Lake St
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYxTTzlT.png&hash=9da0c8b82b812dd5acdfc3d01c4af3e0210c14d4)
GSV heading south on Lake St
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FjpzGmC8.png&hash=a2930ed2a60af434ab7ae0e9fd5c6c9aa11b3965)
2) The 5-way intersection of St Paul St, Geneva St, Niagara St, and Queenston St. (https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.1619161,-79.240057,18z) The sign assembly on St Paul St heading into the intersection shows the necessary signage. I can tell you, when I first moved there for my co-op job, I made the wrong "left-turn" a few times :-D
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FrUOtOMm.png&hash=3637a7a5bcdd13d65bf5c3ccba1ed37b60ef0f96)
GSV of the signage on St Paul St
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Foq1RUsu.png&hash=20b838b5d57e21c6882e3a51cd6551ae767b3f82)
I'll put a plug in for Salt Lake City and a lot of Utah cities in general. It's not that networks or bad or not well planned it's just that he number system is incredibly strange. Instead of using something simple like a 1st Street and 1st Avenue a lot of them use something like 100 North or 100 South. Once you get it all makes sense but it's very different....and I'm to understand that was all part of the civic planning that the Mormons did when they were colonizing Utah in general.
Quote from: mariethefoxy on July 30, 2016, 02:02:04 AM
Boston... nuff said
Not sure if it's a street network or a work of art.
Ah what the heck, I'll put in Washington DC as a contender. Their roadways collide at a 5 way intersection and I have no way where I am walking. I actually need a map to see where I'm walking.
Quote from: noelbotevera on July 31, 2016, 01:58:04 AM
Quote from: mariethefoxy on July 30, 2016, 02:02:04 AM
Boston... nuff said
Not sure if it's a street network or a work of art.
Ah what the heck, I'll put in Washington DC as a contender. Their roadways collide at a 5 way intersection and I have no way where I am walking. I actually need a map to see where I'm walking.
The old joke was that Boston's street pattern evolved from the cow paths created when they were set free into the fields by the original Puritan settlers.
St. Paul, where the downtown streets conform to the river. Jesse Ventura had his infamous comment on late night TV that the street grid was designed by drunken Irishmen.
I vote ATLANTA. I have lived in the metro area for over 30 years, and I still don't understand the way the streets are laid out.
Any city with a grid-based system that follows a curved axis, like New Orleans and the Mississippi River.
Or my personal favorite: Cedar Rapids, IA, which is grid-based with two curved axes: 1st Avenue and the Cedar River.
Saint Louis: Parts of it were laid out in subdivisions, so often you'd have one street going WNW, such as Westminster Place, but two streets north, Delmar goes east-west with a slight turn ESE. The major N/S streets turn to the NE after a certain point, like Grand, Vandeventer, Kingshighway, Union, and Goodfellow.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 31, 2016, 12:13:14 AM
I'll put a plug in for Salt Lake City and a lot of Utah cities in general. It's not that networks or bad or not well planned it's just that he number system is incredibly strange. Instead of using something simple like a 1st Street and 1st Avenue a lot of them use something like 100 North or 100 South. Once you get it all makes sense but it's very different....and I'm to understand that was all part of the civic planning that the Mormons did when they were colonizing Utah in general.
that's basically the way almost every county in indiana names their roads
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 01, 2016, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 31, 2016, 12:13:14 AM
I'll put a plug in for Salt Lake City and a lot of Utah cities in general. It's not that networks or bad or not well planned it's just that he number system is incredibly strange. Instead of using something simple like a 1st Street and 1st Avenue a lot of them use something like 100 North or 100 South. Once you get it all makes sense but it's very different....and I'm to understand that was all part of the civic planning that the Mormons did when they were colonizing Utah in general.
that's basically the way almost every county in indiana names their roads
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Indiana along with Illinois where the Mormons migrated to Utah from? Might stand to reason that the practices for road grids they had have origins in the Mid-West.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 01, 2016, 11:10:21 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 01, 2016, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 31, 2016, 12:13:14 AM
I'll put a plug in for Salt Lake City and a lot of Utah cities in general. It's not that networks or bad or not well planned it's just that he number system is incredibly strange. Instead of using something simple like a 1st Street and 1st Avenue a lot of them use something like 100 North or 100 South. Once you get it all makes sense but it's very different....and I'm to understand that was all part of the civic planning that the Mormons did when they were colonizing Utah in general.
that's basically the way almost every county in indiana names their roads
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Indiana along with Illinois where the Mormons migrated to Utah from? Might stand to reason that the practices for road grids they had have origins in the Mid-West.
definitely Illinois, not sure about Indiana.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 01, 2016, 11:10:21 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on August 01, 2016, 11:05:33 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 31, 2016, 12:13:14 AM
I'll put a plug in for Salt Lake City and a lot of Utah cities in general. It's not that networks or bad or not well planned it's just that he number system is incredibly strange. Instead of using something simple like a 1st Street and 1st Avenue a lot of them use something like 100 North or 100 South. Once you get it all makes sense but it's very different....and I'm to understand that was all part of the civic planning that the Mormons did when they were colonizing Utah in general.
that's basically the way almost every county in indiana names their roads
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Indiana along with Illinois where the Mormons migrated to Utah from? Might stand to reason that the practices for road grids they had have origins in the Mid-West.
They started in upstate NY, they were in Nauvoo , IL for a while and were run out of town, eventually ending up I. What was then outside the United States in Utah...
They believe the garden of Eden was in Jackson county, MO and that is where Christ will come again
Paris, France has this weird spider web grid going on
There are many cities that were laid out at an offset to true N-S in order to expose more sides of buildings to sunlight. Downtown Battle Creek is laid out in such a way. Of course, Battle Creek has different dividing lines depending on which part of town it is, and many streets' numbering begin at the start of a street rather than conform to any grid.
The downtown area of Santa Barbara is on a grid pattern:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F10g0kfp.jpg&hash=05f76a071ee2ec6a9f6d35acc604eb55218813f3)
However, the street grid is 48 degrees off from true north, which means that "north" is closer to east than it is to north. Also, the roads (like State Street) turn to pretty much straight east-west once you get out of downtown, which turns what's left of the grid off by about 90 degrees.
Bellingham, WA
https://www.google.com/maps/@48.7569991,-122.4744664,13.5z?hl=en
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on August 01, 2016, 06:36:45 AM
I vote ATLANTA. I have lived in the metro area for over 30 years, and I still don't understand the way the streets are laid out.
Atlanta's streets look like they were designed by a 3 year old with a crayon.
The south side of San Jose, CA -- at least south of San Carlos Avenue -- is laid out in a "fan" pattern, with the east side following Monterey Road (old US 101, now decommissioned CA 82), which cants about 30 degrees east from due N-S, to Meridian (one would think that with that name, it would delineate a N-S trajectory -- but no, it turns about 7 degrees to the east below Dry Creek, and finally to Bascom on the west (old CA 17), which heads straight N-S from the San Carlos central axis for about 3 miles before turning SW in Campbell so as to serve Los Gatos. First Street (the N. extension of Monterey Road), Meridian, and Bascom are only about a mile and a half apart along San Carlos, but by the time they reach Blossom Hill Road (which skirts the coastal hills to the south) Monterey Road is about 11 miles from Los Gatos Blvd., the Bascom extension. It's almost a cartoon version of "suburban sprawl" when seen from the air!
Compare the road networks of Atlanta and Detroit. Green lines represent two-lane roads (lowest capacity arterials) and red and dark blue lines are boulevards or 6-lane roads (highest capacity arterials). Notice how in Atlanta so many major areterials just funnel traffic to the freeways and either dead end or turn into a two-lane road. Atlanta seems to be so reliant on their freeways. Detroit is basically the exact opposite (drivers in Detroit rely heavily on major arterials to get around).
ATLANTA:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FAtlanta25-mile-3.jpg&hash=5403f68039bbb2c1f36d72e62cf36bd72e2eda4b)
DETROIT:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FDetroit25-mile-2.jpg&hash=85e1f9399f2bfb34bd36a3813b7747185dd267e3)
Victoria, British Columbia. This city is so incredibly English-feeling, right down to the layout of the roads. Neither the "St" nor "Ave" suffixes follow any sort of cardinal direction. Roads change names frequently, seemingly at random.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F4M9kfU6.png&hash=3af3296e771331868c03238158106796e5b7e717)
Us who live in the Chicago / Milwaukee metroplex have life prety easy, for the most part.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on August 01, 2016, 02:43:49 PM
The downtown area of Santa Barbara is on a grid pattern:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F10g0kfp.jpg&hash=05f76a071ee2ec6a9f6d35acc604eb55218813f3)
However, the street grid is 48 degrees off from true north, which means that "north" is closer to east than it is to north. Also, the roads (like State Street) turn to pretty much straight east-west once you get out of downtown, which turns what's left of the grid off by about 90 degrees.
The Sylmar/Pacoima area of the San Fernando Valley (Los Angeles) is also a grid that's diagonal in relationship to the rest of the Valley's grid layout.
Honolulu's street system is a grid (with a few diagonal streets breaking up the pattern, such as Kalakaua Avenue and Kapiolani Boulevard) that's tilted askew from the four cardinal directions because of the geography of the island of Oahu. Many smaller towns in Hawaii have streets that meander every which-way because of the mountainous terrain of the islands. If I remember correctly from living on Kauai, Kapaa is one of those towns.
Speaking of streets that run every which-way with no logical pattern, Concord, California is one screwed-up town (sorry, any residents of the place who sees this)! To make matters worse, some of the streets change names. I had relatives who lived there and whenever my folks and/or I would try to see them, we/I would always get lost. Always! And both my late father and I have great sense of direction. My brother also lived in Concord for a while as a paramedic, and even the fire department would get lost on those streets! :no:
The larger cities arrayed along CA 99 in the San Joaquin Valley, from Fresno northward, are laid out in a "dual-grid" pattern, with the original city core (based on the original SP rail line that parallels 99) laid out in a diagonally-oriented grid. Past a point (that varies from city to city), the grid reverts to a more traditional N-S/E-W approach; any suburbs tend to follow the latter pattern. When looked at from the air, it looks like a patchwork "quilt" with the center piece askew from the rest of the pattern. This "system" is seen in Fresno itself, Madera, Merced, Turlock, and Modesto. Once 99 reverts to a more north-south trajectory starting at Manteca, the cities and towns follow suit, maintaining a more directionally traditional layout.
In my various drawings over the years I have conceived of towns with radial grids. Here's a quick sketch of what I mean:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLTYWNuM.png&hash=d86ad07adb84fa441b7c7a4b4159fccd2ac61a99)
I know of no real world examples of this, however.
Brasilia:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bras%C3%ADlia,+Brasilia+-+Federal+District,+Brazil/@-15.8074585,-47.9090676,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x935a3d18df9ae275:0x738470e469754a24!8m2!3d-15.7942287!4d-47.8821658!6m1!1e1?hl=en
Orlando always confuses me, especially with the positioning of I-4, which is labeled as E-W, but goes almost completely north-south betweed downtown and Sand Lake Rd.
Quote from: gp248 on August 04, 2016, 10:44:17 PM
Orlando always confuses me, especially with the positioning of I-4, which is labeled as E-W, but goes almost completely north-south betweed downtown and Sand Lake Rd.
Those lakes basically made any grid network impossible. If you want to see how bad it gets check out FL 15 from Colonial to Naroossee Road....it basically travels through a crap ton of neighborhood streets! Tracking the older alignments of FL 50 is a complete riot in the Orlando area, that thing was all over the place until it was straightened with Colonial.
Quote from Max Rockastansky:
QuoteThose lakes basically made any grid network impossible. If you want to see how bad it gets check out FL 15 from Colonial to Naroossee Road....it basically travels through a crap ton of neighborhood streets! Tracking the older alignments of FL 50 is a complete riot in the Orlando area, that thing was all over the place until it was straightened with Colonial.
The biggest issue I noticed in the Orlando Metro is the very wide arterial spacing compared to the northern Dallas suburbs. I didn't really notice it until I visited Orlando again recently, and started looking for a reason for the severe arterial intersection congestion that occurs at all hours of the day, which is very different from the Dallas area, where pretty much all the congestion is on the interstates, and only at rush hour.
It's not just the lakes that get in the way. There are a lot of swampy areas as well. I still think they could have planned and built much more closely spaced arterials than they did. They just stuck to the old rural road layout way too much, especially in the Kissimmee/Disney area. That area has the worst street layout to me. It's like it was allowed to develop with no thoroughfare plan whatsoever. In fact, the planning is so poor, they are now talking about removing a lot of not-so-old houses in order to extend the Osceola Pkwy eastward
Concerning SR 15: The only odd part is between SR 408 and SR 50. One of the reasons it is so odd (brick one way residential streets with stairsteps) is that it didn't used to go that way. From N to S, from Mills it went west on Robinson, south on Orange/(NB on Magnolia) (SR 527 NB moved from Magnolia to Rosalind in the 90's, just learned that), then back east on Anderson, with eastbound using South St.
Concerning SR 50, it really wound around even more in the Ocoee to Clermont area.
15 even used to use Briercliff and Curry Ford Road at one point...that must have been hellish but nowadays it's actually the sneaky route into downtown. I never understood why 15 was never moved over to Lee Vista which has four lanes for the most part instead of Hoffner. Hoffner is a terrible and disgusting road that goes by some "just above" cracker hours...hell I don't even think there is really even side walk to this very day.
In the eastern part of the city I think that Orlando got lucky in that Conway, Semoran and Goldenrod were pretty much straight roads a long time ago. About the only ones that are really modern in design are Colonial, Semoran, John Young Parkway, Sand Lake....and...ugh....OBT. Personally when I was living there I always preferred Orange Ave to OBT even though it went directly through downtown given everyone would pile on the former due to I-4 access. Funny to think Orange Ave was the original US 92/17....it seems overbuilt these days...about the only street.
Another problem with Orlando is that there isn't enough free roads. Basically that means every cheap ass is going to use either I-4 or stay on a surface grid that isn't designed for it. Tampa has a similar issue but at least when you get off on a surface road it tends to flow well because there is an existing grid. But then again we're talking about a really old city too with Orlando. Most people don't realize that it was county seat of Orange County way back in 1856.
Rapid City, SD has 2 N-S grids separated by an offset grid that follows the creek. As such, if you stay on one road throughout (e.g. Allen Ave./Mt. Rushmore Rd.) you end up being two blocks further west than you started (going south). Rapid also has a problem with street names changing randomly.
Nampa, ID has a diagonal downtown core, which switches to a typical cardinal direction grid outside of downtown (with the arterials anyways; much of the in between streets are typical suburban maze. See Meridian if you want a whole city like that!), with exception of the major arterial Nampa-Caldwell Blvd (and paralleling I-84) which continue diagonally. The transitions in and out of downtown can be confusing. Look at the weird discontinuity in Roosevelt Ave, for example.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FFHaxBJO.png&hash=eeb745d98737d40d8b1bd4dbbd162e26d4a55ad6)
Boise is kind of similar downtown but a bit less confusing (though due to the size and diversity of topography of the city, there are many different street layouts).
If we're going that route, San Francisco's grids count (https://goo.gl/maps/PBThRW4Kt1B2), too.
I tried to rank the top metros based on "arterial street efficiency" . Essentially I looked at suburbs that were roughly 20 miles out from the city center and found the most efficient arterial to get into downtown (without taking any freeways). I looked for major suburbs that radiated out from all directions. From there, I compared the route distance to the "as the crow flies" distance to determine the efficiency of the regions arterial network. This is the results I came up with along with a few sample maps to show the idea behind it:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2Fsummaryefficient_zpsda4d6bea.jpg&hash=5da30fb7f25d02c90e6b482db1863870b6682c45)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FHouston_zps0fbdd668.jpg&hash=bbba4f454b46fa872d6cc8ffbc5853d44095b175)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FDetroit_zpsea03e835.jpg&hash=cb4e27b8ccdd90d4b515180aa5fd16004f75fce4)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FSeattle_zpsc8acd595.jpg&hash=bd00480a5a6caa64ffbc71892423dcf688102667)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FSanFrancisco_zpse1ee9bdd.jpg&hash=7693be19c6377e6963311827ff47b220d5ee0549)
The city that caught my eye the most was Phoenix. The city has a very structured street network. But they are mainly E/W and N/S streets. There is only one major street that radiates downtown at an angle. This leads to a pretty low efficiency street network.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FPhoenix_zps09f24873.jpg&hash=63d8daf508d1b79f9bbc67873e066b11bde979ad)
Nice analysis tradephoric!
Quote from: tradephoric on August 05, 2016, 04:08:06 PM
The city that caught my eye the most was Phoenix. The city has a very structured street network. But they are mainly E/W and N/S streets. There is only one major street that radiates downtown at an angle. This leads to a pretty low efficiency street network.
I definitely think having diagonal streets can make a big difference for efficiency. That's one thing I like about KW's street network is that the diagonal streets allow for lots of shortcuts (relative to a grid).
Two examples I use all the time:
River Rd to get between King St and Fairway Rd (Kitchener)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fb7dOBej.png&hash=8d543834c5a935d1e99785cbb90af8184aad684c)
Albert St and Central St to get between University Ave and King St (Waterloo)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fdj4uXGK.png&hash=8fb373d2526985e382b15c3cffa15abbfaebe419)
Quote from: tradephoric on August 05, 2016, 04:08:06 PM
The city that caught my eye the most was Phoenix. The city has a very structured street network. But they are mainly E/W and N/S streets. There is only one major street that radiates downtown at an angle. This leads to a pretty low efficiency street network.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FPhoenix_zps09f24873.jpg&hash=63d8daf508d1b79f9bbc67873e066b11bde979ad)
Plays different with real traffic though. If one street is busy all you need to do is go a half-block/block over usually to get things back on track. Usually the back ups happen on streets like Grand Avenue which are diagonals. I used to a do a zig-zag pattern before the 101 was finished which seemed to work pretty well, but then again I knew most of the bad back up points.
Quote from: tradephoric on August 05, 2016, 03:58:41 PM
I tried to rank the top metros based on "arterial street efficiency" . Essentially I looked at suburbs that were roughly 20 miles out from the city center and found the most efficient arterial to get into downtown (without taking any freeways). I looked for major suburbs that radiated out from all directions. From there, I compared the route distance to the "as the crow flies" distance to determine the efficiency of the regions arterial network. This is the results I came up with along with a few sample maps to show the idea behind it:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2Fsummaryefficient_zpsda4d6bea.jpg&hash=5da30fb7f25d02c90e6b482db1863870b6682c45)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FHouston_zps0fbdd668.jpg&hash=bbba4f454b46fa872d6cc8ffbc5853d44095b175)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FDetroit_zpsea03e835.jpg&hash=cb4e27b8ccdd90d4b515180aa5fd16004f75fce4)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FSeattle_zpsc8acd595.jpg&hash=bd00480a5a6caa64ffbc71892423dcf688102667)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FSanFrancisco_zpse1ee9bdd.jpg&hash=7693be19c6377e6963311827ff47b220d5ee0549)
where are you getting this data
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 01, 2016, 03:28:07 AM
St. Paul, where the downtown streets conform to the river. Jesse Ventura had his infamous comment on late night TV that the street grid was designed by drunken Irishmen.
I'm Irish and absolutely agree with what he said. Having spent plenty of time in St. Paul, I can attest to how screwy it is, especially compared to Minneapolis, which also has its quirks. Milwaukee probably has the cleanest street/address layout. Just name an address, a street name, and section of town, and one can actually find it without a map.
Quote from: FightingIrish on August 06, 2016, 12:52:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 01, 2016, 03:28:07 AM
St. Paul, where the downtown streets conform to the river. Jesse Ventura had his infamous comment on late night TV that the street grid was designed by drunken Irishmen.
I'm Irish and absolutely agree with what he said. Having spent plenty of time in St. Paul, I can attest to how screwy it is, especially compared to Minneapolis, which also has its quirks. Milwaukee probably has the cleanest street/address layout. Just name an address, a street name, and section of town, and one can actually find it without a map.
Are the sections of town have distinctive things to tell you what it is, or it is marked by signage? Because in other cities they usually don't mark neighborhoods and you have to look at a map or check on your phone. I can attest to this by going to New York City multiple times and never found the difference between Brooklyn and Queens and only figured out the boundary by looking at maps.
Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2016, 03:23:01 PM
If we're going that route, San Francisco's grids count (https://goo.gl/maps/PBThRW4Kt1B2), too.
Here's a sampling of the amount of SF street grids that exist:
- Outside lands area (Sunset/Richmond) which has connectivity with the classic downtown/Fillmore/Marina (north of Market) grid. The latter connects somewhat with the Haight-Ashbury/Panhandle grid due to Fell and Oak Streets
- Potrero Hill/Dogpatch/Mission/Noe Valley/Castro which connects out to the diagonal South of Market (Central Freeway northwest to the Embarcadero) grid
- Bernal Heights
- Bayview (streets perpendicular to the long portion of 3rd Street)
- Visitacion Valley, which connects to the layout of Daly City's Bayshore neighborhood
- Portola, diagonal to the Visitacion Valley grid
- Excelsior (country-named streets perpendicular to Mission Street)
- Ingleside (south of Ocean Avenue)
- Outer Mission, slightly between Ingleside and Excelsior layouts and near Crocker-Amazon curved grid
- Parkmerced
Non-gridded: Presidio, Forest Hill, West Portal, Diamond Heights
---
Quote from: tradephoric(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FMajor%2520Metro%2520Arterials%2FSanFrancisco_zpse1ee9bdd.jpg&hash=7693be19c6377e6963311827ff47b220d5ee0549)
Your SF map has one key flaw, in that several freeway routes into the city are being labeled as "arterials", i.e. Route 1 from Pacifica to the SF line, or the Bay Bridge and Golden Gate Bridge. Really, there are only a handful of major arterials that enter the city limits from elsewhere at all, all coming from the south:
from Daly City:
Skyline Boulevard (Route 35)
Lake Merced Boulevard
San Jose Avenue (Route 82/former US 101)
Mission Street
Geneva Avenue (entering southeast to northwest)
Brisbane:
Bayshore Boulevard (former Bypass US 101)
Tunnel Avenue
All other entrances to SF are via freeway (from the south: 280, 101, 1 which has 3 exits between 280 and 19th Avenue; from the north: 101/1, from the east: 80).
One of your blue lines marks a path connecting Route 82/El Camino Real in San Bruno with Airport Boulevard/Bayshore Boulevard (former Bypass US 101) via San Mateo Avenue. While in the pre-freeway era, San Mateo was a viable connector, today it is a two-lane street serving downtown San Bruno and an industrial portion of South San Francisco, almost entirely local traffic only.
Quote from: TheStranger on August 06, 2016, 04:53:54 PM
Your SF map has one key flaw, in that several freeway routes into the city are being labeled as "arterials", i.e. Route 1 from Pacifica to the SF line, or the Bay Bridge and Golden Gate Bridge. Really, there are only a handful of major arterials that enter the city limits from elsewhere at all, all coming from the south:
Yeah San Fran is unique. I should have said i avoided freeways whenever possible, but with San Fran you really can't avoid them completely.
Quote from: Brian556 on August 04, 2016, 11:26:53 PM
It's not just the lakes that get in the way. There are a lot of swampy areas as well. I still think they could have planned and built much more closely spaced arterials than they did. They just stuck to the old rural road layout way too much, especially in the Kissimmee/Disney area. That area has the worst street layout to me. It's like it was allowed to develop with no thoroughfare plan whatsoever. In fact, the planning is so poor, they are now talking about removing a lot of not-so-old houses in order to extend the Osceola Pkwy eastward
The sense I get is that Florida isn't into the concept of reserving ROW for future use. Combine this with rapid growth and fiascos inevitably ensue.
See for example what happened with SR 429 - OOCEA went and built the southern half ending at US 441, but no one bought up or otherwise reserved any of the land past the end of it necessary to extend it further. Said land quickly got gobbled up by private developers and built over. OOCEA then had to rip up a perfectly good section of freeway only 10 years old so the road could be realigned to a corridor a couple miles to the west that was still free of development in order to finish it.
I'd probably go with Sounder and say that Seattle has one of the most unique networks in the US.
But I figure I'll throw in Buffalo to this as well, because it really is unique and I'm not just trying to pump it up...
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/MapOfBuffalo.jpg)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flibrary.buffalo.edu%2Fpan-am%2Fimg%2Ffig1.jpg&hash=8b8b025ea1c609e81eccc87f11d1d698dd454cde)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flibrary.buffalo.edu%2Fmaps%2Fimg%2Fbuffaloandriver.jpg&hash=f2992cb7f4ad312b8e8bba8c0f1e157bdaf42448)
Over the years the street grid in the downtown area has been mutilated by failed urban renewal projects however.
Budapest has one that actually makes sense when you work it out.
Also, I'd like to see an analysis of Portland's network.
Google "Crayon the Grids" and take a look at some of the maps. The colors of the map show the different orientations within a city's grid. Here are a few examples:
NYC:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.adsttc.com%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F5451%2F2be9%2Fe58e%2Fcea3%2Fa000%2F0249%2Flarge_jpg%2FNew_York.jpg%3F1414605790&hash=297dab793f2cac8299aadc8798bd3c1023a54b51)
Berlin:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.adsttc.com%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F5451%2F2ba8%2Fe58e%2Fcea3%2Fa000%2F0245%2Flarge_jpg%2FBerlin.jpg%3F1414605720&hash=1eddafedea18f460e498d0a33b7edb951ae03e94)
Washington DC:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.adsttc.com%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F5451%2F2bc9%2Fe58e%2Fcea3%2Fa000%2F0247%2Flarge_jpg%2FDC.jpg%3F1414605753&hash=623a8720f931604a16ad8a9811a7f7e929e0a3b9)
Paris:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.adsttc.com%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F5451%2F2bf0%2Fe58e%2Fcef8%2F1300%2F024c%2Flarge_jpg%2FParis.jpg%3F1414605798&hash=da140d18dab15b954f36bda3bd15f9a9cc023794)
I know many of us would be able to I'd the city based on grid alone. I can with most US cities from years of looking at Rand McNally Atlas.
My ex wife was astounded i knew cities from the air when we flew to California for her grandmas funeral
Quote from: jwolfer on August 10, 2016, 01:49:58 PM
I know many of us would be able to I'd the city based on grid alone. I can with most US cities from years of looking at Rand McNally Atlas.
My ex wife was astounded i knew cities from the air when we flew to California for her grandmas funeral
I flew to Disney World 3 years ago from Buffalo and recognized Charlotte from the air.
Hell I had person next to me flip out on the place from California to Denver in June when I took my long road trip. The plane was flying over basically US 6 and then US 50...pretty easy to track the terrain from the air if you recognize it all. I got some really cool shots of the confluence of the Green and Colorado Rivers in the Canyonlands. I guess the guy next to me didn't like the window open and was afraid of flying.
So cities, yes those are pretty easy to identify based off the road network.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 10, 2016, 04:01:07 PM
Hell I had person next to me flip out on the place from California to Denver in June when I took my long road trip. The plane was flying over basically US 6 and then US 50...pretty easy to track the terrain from the air if you recognize it all. I got some really cool shots of the confluence of the Green and Colorado Rivers in the Canyonlands. I guess the guy next to me didn't like the window open and was afraid of flying.
So cities, yes those are pretty easy to identify based off the road network.
For us it's easy... Most normal people couldn't ID their hometown from the grid
Waukesha WI is poorly laid out. You can't get from one end to the other without having to change streets. No roads lead both in and out.
The network in Washington, DC has always seemed odd to me. I wonder what the rationale was for the locations and angles of the Avenues?
^In July, 1790 congress passed the "Residence Act" which laid out the limits of Washington D.C.'s 10 square mile federal district. In 1791 George Washington appointed Pierre Charles L'Enfant to layout the new city. This was taken from Wikipedia:
QuoteL'Enfant's "Plan of the city intended for the permanent seat of the government of the United States..." encompassed an area bounded by the Potomac River, the Eastern Branch, the base of the escarpment of the Atlantic Seaboard Fall Line, and Rock Creek.[21][27] His plan specified locations for the "Congress House" (the United States Capitol), which would be built on "Jenkins Hill" (later to be known as "Capitol Hill"), which he described as a "pedestal awaiting a monument". The "President's House" at a northwest diagonal from the halls of Congress along an unusually broad Pennsylvania Avenue (later known after its 1815—1817 rebuilding and white-washing the stone walls, as the famous "White House" or "Executive Mansion"), which would be situated on a ridge parallel to the Potomac River, situated north of a riverfront marsh and canal (later known as "Tiber Canal" or the "Washington City Canal" during the 1800s).[15][28]
L'Enfant envisioned the "President's House" to have public gardens and monumental architecture. Reflecting his grandiose visions, he specified that the "President's House" (occasionally referred to as the "President's Palace") would be five times the size of the building that was actually constructed, even then becoming the largest residence then constructed in America.[16] Emphasizing the importance of the new Nation's Legislature, the "Congress House" would be located on a longitude designated as 0:0.[22][29][30][31]
The plan specified that most streets would be laid out in a grid. To form the grid, some streets (later named for letters of the alphabet) would travel in an east-west direction, while others (named for numbers) would travel in a north-south direction. Diagonal broader avenues, later named after the states of the Union, crossed the north/south-east/west grid.[31][32][33] The diagonal avenues intersected with the north-south and east-west streets at circles and rectangular plazas that would later honor notable Americans and provide open space.
L'Enfant laid out a 400 feet (122 m)-wide garden-lined "grand avenue", which he expected to travel for about 1 mile (1.6 km) along an east-west axis in the center of an area that would later become the National Mall.[32] He also laid out a narrower avenue (Pennsylvania Avenue) which would connect the "Congress House" with the "President's House".[22][32] In time, Pennsylvania Avenue developed into the capital city's present "grand avenue".
Andrew Ellicott's 1792 revision of L'Enfant's plan of 1791—1792 for the "Federal City" later Washington City, District of Columbia.
L'Enfant's plan additionally laid out a system of canals (later designated as the Washington City Canal) that would pass the "Congress House" and the "President's House". One branch of the canal would empty into the Potomac River south of the "President's House" at the mouth of old Tiber Creek, which would be channelized and straightened.[32]
L'Enfant secured the lease of quarries at Wigginton Island and further southeast along Aquia Creek off the lower Potomac River southern bank in Virginia to supply well-regarded "Aquia Creek sandstone" for the foundation and later for the wall slabs and blocks of the "Congress House" in November 1791.[34] However, his temperament and his insistence that his city design be realized as a whole, brought him into conflict with the Commissioners, who wanted to direct the limited funds available into construction of the Federal buildings. In this, they had the support of Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson.
During a contentious period in February 1792, Andrew Ellicott, who had been conducting the original boundary survey of the future District of Columbia (see: Boundary Stones (District of Columbia)) and the survey of the "Federal City" under the direction of the Commissioners, informed the Commissioners that L'Enfant had not been able to have the city plan engraved and had refused to provide him with the original plan (of which L'Enfant had prepared several versions).[35][36][37] Ellicott, with the aid of his brother, Benjamin Ellicott, then revised the plan, despite L'Enfant's protests.[35][36][37][38]
Shortly thereafter, having along with Secretary Jefferson grown increasingly frustrated by L'Enfant's unresponsiveness and headstrong ways, President Washington dismissed the architect. After L'Enfant departed, Andrew Ellicott, Benjamin Banneker, and several of Ellicott's assistants continued the city survey in accordance with the revised plan, several versions of which were engraved, published and distributed. In addition, Benjamin Banneker, placed on the planning committee at Thomas Jefferson's request, saved the project by reproducing from memory, in two days, a complete layout of the streets, parks, and major buildings. Thus Washington, D.C. itself can be considered a monument to the genius of this great man.[39] As a result, Ellicott's revisions subsequently became the basis for the Capital City's development.[35][36][40][41][42][43]
L'Enfant was initially not paid for his work on his plan for the "Federal City". He fell into disgrace, spending much of the rest of his life trying to persuade Congress to pay him the tens of thousands of dollars that he claimed he was owed.[6] After a number of years, Congress finally paid him a small sum, nearly all of which went to his creditors.[4][44]
Quote from: corcko on August 11, 2016, 02:08:46 PM
The network in Washington, DC has always seemed odd to me. I wonder what the rationale was for the locations and angles of the Avenues?
The channeling of Masonic energy into the seat of government.
Anyone willing to explain to Philadelphia mess please feel free. I've been in the area multiple times in the past month to clinch highway segments.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEWk5Jkc.jpg&hash=d6389d2c55ff004d2afb3f48716b7c82f7b9f75f)
Quote from: corcko on August 11, 2016, 02:08:46 PM
The network in Washington, DC has always seemed odd to me. I wonder what the rationale was for the locations and angles of the Avenues?
To facilitate getting around in the city. Remember, when DC was first platted, people walked, rode horses, or rode in carriages/wagons. Having avenues that cut off the angles would help cut down the distance required to walk.
Never thought of Philadelphia as that much of a mess. It was one of the first planned-out cities in the U.S. You can see the original central grid.
Quote from: epzik8 on August 15, 2016, 11:40:39 PM
Anyone willing to explain to Philadelphia mess please feel free. I've been in the area multiple times in the past month to clinch highway segments.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEWk5Jkc.jpg&hash=d6389d2c55ff004d2afb3f48716b7c82f7b9f75f)
This isn't a Philadelphia mess. You're looking at a huge area of Southeast Pennsylvania. It's just a regional road network, just like one you'll find in any suburban area of any city throughout the country.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 04, 2016, 09:23:33 PM
Brasilia:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Bras%C3%ADlia,+Brasilia+-+Federal+District,+Brazil/@-15.8074585,-47.9090676,13z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x935a3d18df9ae275:0x738470e469754a24!8m2!3d-15.7942287!4d-47.8821658!6m1!1e1?hl=en
Canberra, Australia (https://www.google.com/maps/@-35.3078005,149.1161453,14.24z?hl=en) to some extent, too.
This is an updated rendering of the 1807 Woodward Plan for Detroit.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Foj08m.jpg&hash=4fb9a81aa40d3d0ac92016c11a0613f5c3a30031)
Quote from: tradephoric on September 03, 2016, 06:27:02 PM
This is an updated rendering of the 1807 Woodward Plan for Detroit.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Foj08m.jpg&hash=4fb9a81aa40d3d0ac92016c11a0613f5c3a30031)
This reminds me of paris, france. Why wasn't this completely built? Or was it and it was changed over the yrs?
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 04, 2016, 06:37:00 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on September 03, 2016, 06:27:02 PM
This is an updated rendering of the 1807 Woodward Plan for Detroit.
// image snipped//
This reminds me of paris, france. Why wasn't this completely built? Or was it and it was changed over the yrs?
It probably wasn't implemented completely because of the old French land grants. Farmers were given long narrow strips of land perpendicular to the Detroit River which came to be called corridors (e.g the "Cass Corridor"). It gave each land owner access to the river.
Campus Martius and the south half of Grand Circus Park ended up being in these configurations. But probably it would have involved taking out too many private buildings which had developed over the past century to complete this fully in the 1800's.
I find it interesting that Grand River Avenue is completely missing from the proposed plan, and there's nothing showing how Gratiot Avenue meets up with Monroe. Grand River and Gratiot, along with Jefferson, Woodward and Michigan, form the main spokes of the Detroit surface streets and all became state and US highways.
Where does grand circus get it's name from?
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 04, 2016, 06:37:00 PM
This reminds me of paris, france. Why wasn't this completely built? Or was it and it was changed over the yrs?
Augustus Woodward came to Detroit in 1805 just a few weeks after a fire burned the city to the ground (there was only one building left standing). Before coming to Detroit, Woodward lived in Washington D.C. and was friends with Thomas Jefferson and Pierre Charles L'Enfant, the designer of Washington D.C.'s street plan. Woodward was inspired by L'Enfant's street plan for Washington D.C. and incorporated many of the same design elements in Detroit. East-west and north-south avenues that radiated out from the Grand Circuses were to be 200 feet wide, even wider than the widest avenues of Washington D.C. Some examples of these 200' wide avenues include Washington Blvd, Madison Street, and Cadillac Square. One potential reason Woodward proposed such wide avenues was to prevent another large fire in the city from leaping across the street and burning the entire city to the ground like the 1805 fire did. Here's a great picture showing the 120' wide Woodward Avenue to the left and the 200' wide Washington Blvd to the right (Woodward is only 120' wide because it doesn't run straight E-W or N-S).
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2F1919%2520Woodward%2520SHORPY_4a25752a_zpscdoaalpk.jpg&hash=e79786825c19f42c0269f6fe72d7103efc62115c)
Woodward's plan was followed for the first 11 years before being abandoned. North of Adams Street the width of Woodward was reduced and rectangular plots were sold. This proved to be problematic when in the 1920's Detroit voted to widen Woodward Avenue to 120 feet from Adams Street to Highland Park in order to fit 4-subway lines under Woodward Avenue. The first major widening of Woodward was complete in 1935 but it took another few decades before it was completely widened to 120 feet all the way to 6 mile (North of 6 mile, Woodward became a suburban boulevard and had an even larger ROW of 204'). They literally cut out the middle sections of churches and rolled the front facade 30' back to make room for the wider Woodward:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2F1935%2520widening_zps0gi2owkc.jpg&hash=9f5333dcb2305fa483f4ca90488fd7974cc115de)
As to why the Woodward plan was abandoned, this is what i could find:
QuoteWhile Judge Woodward was away in Washington (not sweeping his office) in 1817, Governor Lewis Cass and fellow Judge James Witherell conspired to undo Woodward's plan. The new plan reduced the size of the massive streets proposed by Woodward and redirected certain streets so that they would avoid cutting across certain farms, including Cass'. One street was renamed to Witherell Avenue, which was typical among officials seeking to immortalize themselves. Woodward protested to Withrell declaring ominously,
You have well named the main avenue as Witherell, for you have withered my beautiful plan of Detroit and have spoiled the beauty and symmetry of the city of Detroit for all time!
I've always wondered why the roads are so wide over there!
I've wondered about city plans that only take into consideration how they look like from the air. Something that looks like a garden from above translates into an efficient or even aesthetically pleasing city at ground level?
Quote from: silverback1065 on September 04, 2016, 06:52:31 PM
Where does grand circus get it's name from?
Woodward took inspiration from the Greeks and Romans. He named one of the major areas in his plan Campus Martius after an open space in classical Rome. To the other major space in his plan for Detroit, Woodward gave the name Grand Circus Park because that name was used for circular areas in Rome where games and public spectacles were held. By about 1808 or so, streets were laid out according to Woodward's plan.
Grand Circus Park (1920):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstateofred.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F09%2FGrand-Circus-Park-aerial-1920-v3-1024x803.jpg&hash=c32a462b8418f38d1776dc805bf070f604d4c591)
Campus Martius panorama (1907):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbig.assets.huffingtonpost.com%2FTr9dAyM.jpg&hash=504adabf16b9a1b22bcaab744b965aa15149a1ea)
Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2016, 08:07:08 AM
I've wondered about city plans that only take into consideration how they look like from the air. Something that looks like a garden from above translates into an efficient or even aesthetically pleasing city at ground level?
I doubt Judge Woodward's plan would be efficient if it had been fully implemented but I'm glad at least some of his plan was realized. Grand Circus Park looks pretty interesting today compared to what it could have been if they just built up the city in a rectangular grid.
Quote from: Rothman on September 06, 2016, 08:07:08 AM
I've wondered about city plans that only take into consideration how they look like from the air. Something that looks like a garden from above translates into an efficient or even aesthetically pleasing city at ground level?
Your post reminded me of another place in southern California with an odd street pattern from when it was built in the 1920s: an obscure L.A. suburb called Montrose, tucked in between Glendale, La Crescenta and La Canada Flintridge. Supposedly, Florencita Avenue, Waltonia Drive and others were laid out in concentric ovals around the intersection of Montrose Avenue and Ocean View Boulevard to (kinda, sorta) look like a rose when viewed from the air. The 210 Freeway disrupts the pattern to some extent, but look at a map or aerial picture and you can still see it.