I was looking at some car called a Nissan Tsuru. Apparently you can buy a brand new one in Chihuahua, Mexico for $7800 USD, which is dirt cheap for a new vehicle. Below is a photo of it. They kind of look like my father's old K Car.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFnTqOY8SFlyb3kRgbRP-rZ81bbWYxxja8G4pCoBlrlczYbo3vr5lKjSzK)
There are some other cars down there that you can buy brand new for around $9K cheaper than you can in the good ol' USA where they constantly rip you off. So my question is could I take a greyhound bus down to Chihuahua, buy a Tsuru (or other car), bring it back to Indiana, and then get it plated here? (We don't have emissions tests where I live and I don't plan on moving.)
I'm half tempted to go down this this winter and go buy one. I just want to make sure I'd be buying something I could bring back and get plated here. I'm not sure if I could since I'd be buying in another country.
The answer is NO. The car doesn't meet US safety and emission standards.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/
The car in question was actually sold in the US from 1990-94 as the B13 Nissan Sentra.
Specifically, the answer is that it would theoretically be possible if the car were manufactured to US emission standards, but cars sold in Mexico are not made that way.
Even US citizens who nationalize their car in Mexico cannot renationalize their car later in the US unless they can satisfactorily prove they haven't had any work done on the car in Mexico that would jeopardize emissions. That's very rare, and most expats who nationalize their car in Mexico do so with the understanding it can never again be tagged with a US plate.
Quote from: NJRoadfan on August 15, 2016, 04:45:06 PM
The answer is NO. The car doesn't meet US safety and emission standards.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/
The car in question was actually sold in the US from 1990-94 as the B13 Nissan Sentra.
That's not entirely accurate, reading the NHTSA information. If the vehicle in question is 25 years old or older, it does not have to meet US safety and emission standards. More modern vehicles could be, if they meet FMVSS. You would, I think reading the information, work with a registered vehicle importer on newer vehicles that meet FMVSS.
Not that it could be done nor plated but did you even factor in import taxes?
Quote from: Brandon on August 15, 2016, 05:32:49 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on August 15, 2016, 04:45:06 PM
The answer is NO. The car doesn't meet US safety and emission standards.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/
The car in question was actually sold in the US from 1990-94 as the B13 Nissan Sentra.
That's not entirely accurate, reading the NHTSA information. If the vehicle in question is 25 years old or older, it does not have to meet US safety and emission standards. More modern vehicles could be, if they meet FMVSS. You would, I think reading the information, work with a registered vehicle importer on newer vehicles that meet FMVSS.
Which with the sole exception of the Nissan Micra (which Nissan federalized to possibly sell in the US- you can get them in Canada), are going to be makes and models in body styles already available or identical to vehicles currently sold in the U.S.
If you want a new Tsuru, you're best off finding a junkyard Sentra and doing a VIN swap somehow. This would be illegal. Otherwise you'd have to bring several Tsurus up, retrofit them to pass crash tests/emissions/etc here, and then crash test them. This is to say it's not going to happen unless you're ready to spend $100,000+ to import a Tsuru that is so heavily modified it's not even fun anymore.
tl;dr: if this were easy I would do my car shopping exclusively in Mexico.
No. Unless it's 25 years old. In which case you can just buy a Sentra for 1/30th the price.
A Citroen C6 made its way to the US several years ago, presumably by way of a diplomat (immune from import laws). It eventually found itself on the private market (http://goo.gl/4BMkEm). You could theoretically bribe the Mexican consulate to import one for you, and then sell it to you (even though they aren't supposed to sell to anyone else except other diplomats).
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 05:53:17 PM
A Citroen C6 made its way to the US several years ago, presumably by way of a diplomat (immune from import laws). It eventually found itself on the private market (http://goo.gl/4BMkEm). You could theoretically bribe the Mexican consulate to import one for you, and then sell it to you (even though they aren't sell to anyone else except other diplomats).
Rooting for an administrative error is also an option- register at a small town DMV and hope they don't know the rules.
Quote from: corco on August 15, 2016, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 05:53:17 PM
A Citroen C6 made its way to the US several years ago, presumably by way of a diplomat (immune from import laws). It eventually found itself on the private market (http://goo.gl/4BMkEm). You could theoretically bribe the Mexican consulate to import one for you, and then sell it to you (even though they aren't sell to anyone else except other diplomats).
Rooting for an administrative error is also an option- register at a small town DMV and hope they don't know the rules.
I think most states would edit and audit.
Quote from: corco on August 15, 2016, 05:57:53 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 05:53:17 PM
A Citroen C6 made its way to the US several years ago, presumably by way of a diplomat (immune from import laws). It eventually found itself on the private market (http://goo.gl/4BMkEm). You could theoretically bribe the Mexican consulate to import one for you, and then sell it to you (even though they aren't sell to anyone else except other diplomats).
Rooting for an administrative error is also an option- register at a small town DMV and hope they don't know the rules.
I'm sure US41 is not the first person who ever thought of this. Expect the required
bribe tip to only be worthwhile if you want to import something exotic, not just a cheap economy car.
Well Dang! So much for that brilliant idea. I was hoping I could just go down and buy it in Chihuahua, drive it the Presidio / Ojinaga crossing with my bill of sale, come to Indiana and plate it. I knew my idea was going to be too good to be true.
On a side note I wish they sold very basic brand new cars (similar to a Tsuru) in the US that meant our standards. Something cheap (less than $10K) that wasn't very fancy at all, but still ran great.
The sad part is that this year (or maybe next) is the Tsuru's last year. New Mexican safety standards aren't going to tolerate the Tsuru, and it's going to be impossible to update it. I haven't seen an article in English yet, but here is one in Spanish:
http://www.lja.mx/2016/07/nissan-podria-suspender-la-produccion-tsuru-incumplimiento-normas-seguridad/
The last generation Nissan Versa I think is taking its spot as the base Nissan.
Quote from: corco on August 15, 2016, 07:18:25 PM
The last generation Nissan Versa I think is taking its spot as the base Nissan.
That brings up another question. If a Mexican dealer in Chihuahua sells me a car that we also sell in the US (for example a Nissan Versa), would I be able to buy that car in Mexico and bring it back since it would most likely meet our safety standards? I'm not sure if it would meet our emissions standards, but I'm not sure if that matters since my state doesn't require emissions tests.
EDIT: It says I can buy a brand new manual transmission Versa for $9900 (178,900 MXN), which is still a pretty good deal. There were Honda's and Toyota's even that I could save $9K on by buying them brand new down there instead of in the US.
I saw a German TDI Eurovan with a manual transmission on eBay motors... it was expensive but was legally imported somehow.. i would really like a diesel but our options in the us are limited, more so since the vw emissions hullabaloo
No. A Ford Explorer sold at a Mexican dealership is not identical to a Ford Explorer sold at a US dealership. Ford doesn't manufacture zillions of vehicles meeting strict crash and emission criteria to be sold in a country with looser regulations. This would be a waste of Ford's money. No, the auto manufacturers design and build their vehicles specific to the country they're destined for.
There is no easy way around this. There's no point in trying to find a loophole. If there were a worthwhile loophole to be found, the expat community in Mexico would be all over it already.
Quote from: kphoger on August 15, 2016, 07:42:05 PM
There is no easy way around this. There's no point in trying to find a loophole. If there were a worthwhile loophole to be found, the expat community in Mexico would be all over it already.
It's not easy, but where there's a will, there's a
way chance.
I met a gentleman last year, at the hotel I work at in Tacoma. He had a Mercedes Benz B class, which has never been sold in the US. His car was registered in California. He bought the car straight-up in Vancouver, went to a registered importer in California, was able to convince the local registration office that the vehicle met US safety standards -- and bam. Here's a photo I took. Judging by the plate series (starting with 5), the car has been in the US for some time.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FeqOE9d4.jpg&hash=68060a07e7b64a11bd04b7d1463f1614dfe45a57)
Don't you think that the illegals would be all over this already? If this was the case you would see huge dealerships on the border selling cars like candy bars to gringos.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 15, 2016, 08:07:20 PM
Don't you think that the illegals would be all over this already? If this was the case you would see huge dealerships on the border selling cars like candy bars to gringos.
No, because illegal imports (MB B-classes, Citroen C6s) have only been registered because someone was bribed, or didn't do their job correctly. There's no industry for illegal imports because there's no official way to import them. You just get lucky.
The "substantially similar" clause sometimes applies to cars that, while not officially sold in the US, are, underlying, the same as a car sold in the US. I've seen a few Acura ELs (sold only in Canada) with Washington plates. These are similar enough to Honda Civics that local registration offices have approved them, but I don't think every single Acura EL has been approved. You just get lucky.
As to the OP, you could attempt to prove that the Nissan Tsuru is substantially similar to Sentras of the past. They look identical, after all. Maybe your local registration office is easily persuaded.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEDzkh4A.jpg&hash=b199a8904cdde8aafe63bcb1d051c21d0bf8268b)
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 08:05:39 PM
I met a gentleman last year, at the hotel I work at in Tacoma. He had a Mercedes Benz B class, which has never been sold in the US. His car was registered in California. He bought the car straight-up in Vancouver, went to a registered importer in California, was able to convince the local registration office that the vehicle met US safety standards -- and bam. Here's a photo I took. Judging by the plate series (starting with 5), the car has been in the US for some time.
Canada's standards are more in line with those of the United States. Local car dealers around here buy used vehicles from Canada all the time, and resell them to the American market. It's not uncommon to see used cars with speedometers in kilometers around here.
Florida is pretty lax about legally questionable vehicles, but I'm not entirely sure why.
Quote from: cu2010 on August 15, 2016, 08:32:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 08:05:39 PM
I met a gentleman last year, at the hotel I work at in Tacoma. He had a Mercedes Benz B class, which has never been sold in the US. His car was registered in California. He bought the car straight-up in Vancouver, went to a registered importer in California, was able to convince the local registration office that the vehicle met US safety standards -- and bam. Here's a photo I took. Judging by the plate series (starting with 5), the car has been in the US for some time.
Canada's standards are more in line with those of the United States. Local car dealers around here buy used vehicles from Canada all the time, and resell them to the American market. It's not uncommon to see used cars with speedometers in kilometers around here.
For sure. Most American cars are virtually indistinguishable from their Canadian counterparts (sometimes, the lights are different, but that's rare). The catch here is that the B class was never sold in the US (only recently as an electric car). There's nothing substantially similar to it here. The safety standards are basically the same in both countries, but it's harder to prove your point about the car being safe when there's no American counterpart to compare it to.
I once read in one of the major car magazines about a B-Class that a diplomat (I can't remember where from) sold to a guy on the west coast somewhere. That may be the same one. Kind of ironic, since Mercedes is responsible for the 25-year rule in the first place. (Side note: screw Mercedes.)
I drove a Tsuru in Quintana Roo a few years ago. Had it up to 130 km/h on the way down to Tulum and while it was better than most other rentals I've had down there, on the whole I thought my brother's 1974 Beetle felt more solid at that speed (although the Beetle didn't have the nice AC the Tsuru did).
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 09:01:39 PM
Quote from: cu2010 on August 15, 2016, 08:32:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 08:05:39 PM
I met a gentleman last year, at the hotel I work at in Tacoma. He had a Mercedes Benz B class, which has never been sold in the US. His car was registered in California. He bought the car straight-up in Vancouver, went to a registered importer in California, was able to convince the local registration office that the vehicle met US safety standards -- and bam. Here's a photo I took. Judging by the plate series (starting with 5), the car has been in the US for some time.
Canada's standards are more in line with those of the United States. Local car dealers around here buy used vehicles from Canada all the time, and resell them to the American market. It's not uncommon to see used cars with speedometers in kilometers around here.
For sure. Most American cars are virtually indistinguishable from their Canadian counterparts (sometimes, the lights are different, but that's rare). The catch here is that the B class was never sold in the US (only recently as an electric car). There's nothing substantially similar to it here. The safety standards are basically the same in both countries, but it's harder to prove your point about the car being safe when there's no American counterpart to compare it to.
The B-Class, like the Nissan Micra, was crash tested in the U.S. for potential sale. So it's on the list of legal Canadian imports.
Here's some evidence of that: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/407304-jotaeh.html
Quote from: jakeroot on August 15, 2016, 08:20:59 PM
As to the OP, you could attempt to prove that the Nissan Tsuru is substantially similar to Sentras of the past. They look identical, after all. Maybe your local registration office is easily persuaded.
I don't think my BMV cares that much honestly. I might have to just stop in one sometime and ask them about it. I don't think my BMV has probably ever dealt with plating foreign cars. My BMV seems to plate anything as long as you have the bill of sale and your money.
I think my biggest problem might be when I try to enter the US with the car. I'm not sure what I might run into there. I would hate for them to confiscate something brand new with less than 200 miles on it I just paid $7800 for.
They won't let the car into the country without the proper paperwork.
I'd go further than "substantially similar" . The Tsuru is a 1993 Nissan Sentra that you can still buy brand new today. I suspect it's been de-contented to make it cheaper to build, and there have probably been a few minor refinements, but otherwise, it's the same as it was 23 years ago–much the same way and for the same reasons you could buy a brand new '70s-era Volkswagen Beetle in Mexico up until 2004.
And like the Beetle, you might be able to engage in the same chicanery to import one semi legally. When the old Beetle was still in production in Mexico, a few specialty companies were taking the chassis of junked '60s and '70s German Volkswagens that were legally imported to the US decades ago, then somehow moving its floor pan (and VIN plate) onto a new Mexican Beetle–so that as far as the US and state DOTs were concerned, you had a 1967 Volkswagen that just happened to have all brand-new 2003 parts.
Since the Sentra is a unibody car, it might be a more difficult swap (and more blatantly illegal), but you might be able to somehow transfer certain parts from a junked 1993 Sentra so that US authorities would recognize the car as a 1993 Sentra and not a 2016 Tsuru. But by that time, you'd certainly have much more money into the process than just buying a completely legal 2016 Nissan Versa at your local dealer.
I wonder how that would work - if you drove into Mexico in a 1993 Sentra, told customs you were going down to Mexico to get the car restored, which while an odd thing to do would be completely legal, and drove back up in a 2016 Tsuru with swapped VINs? Obviously the VIN-swapping would be illegal, but what method would they have to identify it - especially since we don't have exit controls in the U.S.?
Or, for instance, if I lived in a state with no emissions testing, and drove a U.S. titled and registered 2016 Nissan Frontier to Mexico, and came back with the same 2016 Nissan Frontier, now with a Nissan diesel engine not available in the U.S., would that be legal? What level of car modification is legal to undertake in Mexico with a U.S. plated car?
Quote from: corco on August 15, 2016, 11:59:19 PM
I wonder how that would work - if you drove into Mexico in a 1993 Sentra, told customs you were going down to Mexico to get the car restored, which while an odd thing to do would be completely legal, and drove back up in a 2016 Tsuru with swapped VINs? Obviously the VIN-swapping would be illegal, but what method would they have to identify it - especially since we don't have exit controls in the U.S.?
Or, for instance, if I lived in a state with no emissions testing, and drove a U.S. titled and registered 2016 Nissan Frontier to Mexico, and came back with the same 2016 Nissan Frontier, now with a Nissan diesel engine not available in the U.S., would that be legal? What level of car modification is legal to undertake in Mexico with a U.S. plated car?
It might work in a border town or in Baja, but I'm not sure about the rest of Mexico since you would have to import the car. Maybe I'm over thinking this.
I found this video online. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1kXQDDuMZM
If I was able to get an official letter from Nissan stating that its Versa meets US, EPA, and DOT standards apparently I can import the car legally. If I understood right I also won't have to pay duty on it since it's Mexican manufactured. The problem is that I probably won't be able to get the letter from the manufacturer (Nissan), but it's worth looking in to.
There is absolutely no way the new Nissan Tsuru meets current standards. You'd be looking at retrofitting airbags, something on the front to help with pedestrian safety, a completely reinforced body that crumples, an engine that isn't an ancient Renault engine and meets modern emission standards, etc. And that's just the obvious stuff.
There's a reason cars today don't look like cars in 1993 here - it largely has to do with safety regulations. A Tsuru upgraded to 2016 safety standards is something I can't even picture.
Also, you can usually find a base Versa in the U.S. for about $10,000 if that is what you want.
Quote from: corco on August 15, 2016, 11:59:19 PM
I wonder how that would work - if you drove into Mexico in a 1993 Sentra, told customs you were going down to Mexico to get the car restored, which while an odd thing to do would be completely legal
Why would you tell customs that? If you're talking about the border bridge, then they don't care what you plan to do in México as long as it isn't illegal. If it's the inland customs office you're talking about, then all they care about is that you legally own the vehicle and will be returning it to the USA before your permit expires.
Quoteand drove back up in a 2016 Tsuru with swapped VINs? Obviously the VIN-swapping would be illegal, but what method would they have to identify it - especially since we don't have exit controls in the U.S.?
Your issue here would not be US customs, but rather Mexican customs. If you had the work done within the border zone, than neither the Americans nor the Mexicans would have any record of your VIN having crossed the border. However, if you actually temporarily imported your vehicle to México and had the work done south of the border zone, then you'd be dead in the water. You would have no vehicle with the VIN on your import permit to return to the US, meaning you'd forfeit the deposit you had put down and likely be black-listed from ever driving into México again. Either way, though, you'd have a vehicle in the States whose VIN didn't match your title and registration, so I'm not sure how you'd go about renewing your tags when they expired.
QuoteOr, for instance, if I lived in a state with no emissions testing, and drove a U.S. titled and registered 2016 Nissan Frontier to Mexico, and came back with the same 2016 Nissan Frontier, now with a Nissan diesel engine not available in the U.S., would that be legal? What level of car modification is legal to undertake in Mexico with a U.S. plated car?
If you had a US-registered car, drove it to México for an engine swap, then returned to the US...nobody would ever know. It would be no different than having a tire changed, as far as the authorities were concerned. The VIN they check is under the windshield or on the door frame.
I like how the seats have been somewhat modernized. :-D
Love that big rubbery manual shifter, that's a relic in of itself. At least you get an actual gauge that shows your water temperature and a warning light to boot. I like the paint delete front bumper....thought it was interesting that they made sure to emphasize that it is indeed a 16 valve inline four.
I'm surprised nobody has even thrown out the Spark, doesn't that start somewhere around 12K for the base model?
I think some of you are selling your local DMV very short. It is all in the computers today. You show up with a bill of sale and $$ for a grey market import and the computer is going to reject the transaction. I don't care how far out in the country and unsophisticated you think the local office is, there are boxes that must be ticked and so on or the edits in the program will just reject the transaction.
And even if a DMV does not catch is, the insurance company will. Every company runs a VIN check with the NICB and would reject such a car.
The only major difference between US and Canadian models (aside from Metric issues) is passive restraints. If you can show it meets US standards, the US DOT will allow importation. But your local DMV needs a document from the US DOT that certifies that. I have seen originally Canadian vehicles for sale from time to time. I will say that generally just the Metric spedo will cut it a couple hundred under a similar US vehicle in resale. I have seen lots of Florida plated cars with dealer add on labels from Ontario, but I'm sure these snowbirds have filled out the proper paperwork.
Other countries, including Mexico, do not meet US safety or emission standards. Even if it is a model sold in the US, one sold in Mexico is not the same. The auto companies know where a vehicle is going to be sold and have different production codes. It might even be made on the same production line, but it will leave out US mandated safety equipment, and US emissions devices (both physical devices and different toggles in the engine control software, in fact a lot of this hipster "tuner" stuff is just reflashing the software to a third world setting). If you go to a car lot in Mexico you will often see a sticker that the dealer is supposed to remove in prep that says "FOR EXPORT" on US made vehicles, similar to that weird tape the trunk shut deal that US dealers are supposed to remove at prep from Mexico made cars, but often do not. The US DOT, save impractical nitpicky loopholes, will not issue a clearance for a car from Mexico.
However, there used to be a guy in Cincinnati who, pretty openly sold brand new Beetles (which were made in Mexico until 2003 and Buses (which were made in Brazil until last year and available for purchase in Mexico) . He would take a worn out Beetle down there and do a VIN swap. Apparently he had been around the tree with the government enough times on the idea that he had "repaired" the car in Mexico (by replacing every single part in it) and he was so much trouble and so small they let him by with it.
And, the people who live across from my daughter in Lexington, KY, have a Kentucky plated VW Caddy (a Type 9K in VW internal speak) and what I am pretty sure is a Mexican spec Toyota, and have guests that have a Chevy Tornado, also Kentucky plated. How they did that, I don't know.
Quote from: kphoger on August 16, 2016, 10:37:50 AM
Your issue here would not be US customs, but rather Mexican customs. If you had the work done within the border zone, than neither the Americans nor the Mexicans would have any record of your VIN having crossed the border. However, if you actually temporarily imported your vehicle to México and had the work done south of the border zone, then you'd be dead in the water. You would have no vehicle with the VIN on your import permit to return to the US, meaning you'd forfeit the deposit you had put down and likely be black-listed from ever driving into México again.
I think you're misunderstanding–the idea would be to drive a '93 Sentra into Mexico, then move its VIN plate to a 2016 Tsuru. So you would have a VIN that matches the temporary import record. The issue would be whether the swap could be done professionally enough to avoid either the Mexican or US authorities noticing that the VIN had been tampered with.
But still, I don't see any reason that such a ruse shouldn't be done in the border zone anyway–to avoid suspicion.
As to issues with registration in your home state, I know that every state operates differently, but most I'm familiar with require a VIN verification only when a vehicle has been brought in from out of state and is being registered for the first time. Even then (in PA at least) verification can be done by any state-licensed inspection garage. I'm sure it would't be too hard to find a "Lenny's Discount Auto Repair" where they wouldn't know (or care) that the VIN plate had been swapped. But as long as you stayed in the same state, you could continue to renew your '93 Sentra registration forever with no questions asked.
Quote from: briantroutman on August 16, 2016, 11:15:15 AM
I think you're misunderstanding–the idea would be to drive a '93 Sentra into Mexico, then move its VIN plate to a 2016 Tsuru. So you would have a VIN that matches the temporary import record. The issue would be whether the swap could be done professionally enough to avoid either the Mexican or US authorities noticing that the VIN had been tampered with.
But still, I don't see any reason that such a ruse shouldn't be done in the border zone anyway–to avoid suspicion.
Ah, gotcha. But then you'd have a VIN on a different model of vehicle than the one you brought into México. The import paperwork includes manufacturer, model year, and VIN. Huge red flag.
As you state, though, importation only applies south of the border zone. Any modifications done in Nuevo Laredo, for example, would be off the radar as far as Mexican and American customs go. However, a VIN plate ending up on a different model of vehicle would then cause issues if you ever moved to another state and had to have it inspected for registration.
Quote from: kphoger on August 16, 2016, 11:27:03 AM
Ah, gotcha. But then you'd have a VIN on a different model of vehicle than the one you brought into México. The import paperwork includes manufacturer, model year, and VIN. Huge red flag.
The vehicle prompting this discussion is the Nissan Tsuru–which, apart from a minor change to the grille, is visually identical to the car sold in this country 20-odd years ago as the Nissan Sentra. So if you peel off the "TSURU" on the back and slap on the "SENTRA" badge from your '93, you'd have paperwork that says "1993 Nissan Sentra" with a certain VIN and a vehicle that matches that description. Is someone going to say "This car looks too nice to be a '93?"
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcarphotos.cardomain.com%2Fride_images%2F4%2F624%2F1409%2F39058204001_original.jpg&hash=2281838b3c3f6542b5dc426afc2f4067feec496d)(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thetruthaboutcars.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F03%2F2016-Nissan-Tsuru-silver.jpg&hash=049d9d3653e3e65d5048f8b0b475a5d0597d4f3f)
It's like the situation with the gray market Mexican Volkswagens which were imported into the country in the '80s and '90s–if the VINs match, would most people be able to tell a '75 from a '95?
Goes to show you that regulations add thousands of dollars.
Quote from: briantroutman on August 16, 2016, 11:52:43 AM
The vehicle prompting this discussion is the Nissan Tsuru–which, apart from a minor change to the grille, is visually identical to the car sold in this country 20-odd years ago as the Nissan Sentra. So if you peel off the "TSURU" on the back and slap on the "SENTRA" badge from your '93, you'd have paperwork that says "1993 Nissan Sentra" with a certain VIN and a vehicle that matches that description. Is someone going to say "This car looks too nice to be a '93?"
We're assuming ALL of the following are true:
1) Your Mexican buyer is willing to own a car that cannot be legally registered in México (because it entered the country with either no paperwork or temporary paperwork), or your Mexican buyer is just like you in reverse (willing to trade vehicles and also try and trick the Mexican authorities).
2) You successfully swap the VIN plate under the windshield and the VIN sticker on the door frame without any evidence of tampering; by the way, they take photo record of your vehicle upon permit cancellation from three different angles, including those VIN locations.
3) Nobody at customs (assuming you did a temporary import) catches on that the vehicle in front of them is not the vehicle on your permit being canceled.
3) Nobody during any future inspection in the US catches on that the vehicle in front of them is not the vehicle on your title either.
I suppose this might theoretically be possible, IF all of the above were true, but the chances of that are fairly slim. Also, if the person you sell to in México is NOT doing the exact same as you in reverse, then he would need to get unofficial license plates through an organization like ONAPPAFA. These organizations are halfway to organized crime, as they strong-arm the authorities into letting illegal vehicles slide due to public opposition to the current vehicle import regulations. Those who deal with these organizations are generally poor people with very limited means to secure a decent car through legal means, which means they're also not likely to own a vehicle you'd actually want to have.
For what it's worth, here is what a temporary importation permit looks like. As you can see, it include model year, manufacturer, and full VIN.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1092.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi410%2Fkphoger%2FIMG_20160806_213124_zpsmtoe0zgu.jpg&hash=3546507b8303e20c12dcadc53c58e81efdd094af)
Also of note - US customs DOES, at least occasionally, run exit inspections on the Mexican border, and plans to make them permanent.
And, in case anyone is wondering how closely border officials check the VIN plates on vehicles... I personally know someone who ran into a headache with border officials because he'd had major work done on his vehicle and so the VIN sticker on the door frame didn't match the VIN plate under the windshield. He and the official were at an impasse until the official gave up trying to understand the whole story and just waved him through; if she hadn't, it's likely he wouldn't have been allowed entry.
Quote from: briantroutman on August 15, 2016, 10:49:18 PM
I'd go further than "substantially similar" . The Tsuru is a 1993 Nissan Sentra that you can still buy brand new today. I suspect it's been de-contented to make it cheaper to build, and there have probably been a few minor refinements, but otherwise, it's the same as it was 23 years ago–much the same way and for the same reasons you could buy a brand new '70s-era Volkswagen Beetle in Mexico up until 2004.
And like the Beetle, you might be able to engage in the same chicanery to import one semi legally. When the old Beetle was still in production in Mexico, a few specialty companies were taking the chassis of junked '60s and '70s German Volkswagens that were legally imported to the US decades ago, then somehow moving its floor pan (and VIN plate) onto a new Mexican Beetle–so that as far as the US and state DOTs were concerned, you had a 1967 Volkswagen that just happened to have all brand-new 2003 parts.
Since the Sentra is a unibody car, it might be a more difficult swap (and more blatantly illegal), but you might be able to somehow transfer certain parts from a junked 1993 Sentra so that US authorities would recognize the car as a 1993 Sentra and not a 2016 Tsuru. But by that time, you'd certainly have much more money into the process than just buying a completely legal 2016 Nissan Versa at your local dealer.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmjY8lmzWBc)
This mini was imported with forged numbers. It is a 2000, but was imported as a 25 or older mini. Once discovered, the car has to be destroyed. Since it has no legal identity in terms of a Vin #, they cannot ever link it back to a proper vin.
The VW pan swap is legal, because you are still keeping the chassis the same as a 1960s VW. In a way it is more akin to restoration with new-old stock parts.
It can even happen with cars like the pre-production vipers that were donated to schools, and are not road-worthy in the sense of smog and safety.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a7277/chrysler-crushing-first-vipers-video/
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 16, 2016, 11:54:46 AM
Goes to show you that car companies use regulations as an excuse to add thousands of dollars.
FIFY
I hate all of our stupid regulations, especially ones created by the EPA. It makes everything here so much more expensive and it makes us even less competitive with the rest of the world.
Obviously making a GM vehicle to Mexican standards is a lot cheaper to do in Mexico with cheaper wages, etc. Which is why they have a huge plant in Saltillo. Plus in Saltillo you don't have the to worry about meeting EPA standards for emissions from the factory into the air. I'm sure Mexico has some standards, but I know for a fact they're not as high. And since everything is already cheaper to produce in Saltillo, why not just build cars down there that meet American standards too?
On a side note Ford also announced this year that they were going to build a new plant in San Luis Potosi.
The air pollution and safety regulations are a minor reason cars are more expensive to make here. The major reason is workers in Mexico don't get paid nearly as much.
Quote from: kkt on August 19, 2016, 12:08:11 PM
The air pollution and safety regulations are a minor reason cars are more expensive to make here. The major reason is workers in Mexico don't get paid nearly as much.
The UAW claims that labor costs represent only 10% of a car's costs. The NY Times believes that this figure was somewhat understated and believes it is about 15%.
In any event the UAW cites $40/hour as its standard wage cost (not including benefits) while Mexican wages are about 1/10th of that, with much less benefits.
Regulations have two cost factors relative to cars. First, of course, are those related to the product itself. A car, no matter where made, has to meet the standards of the place it is to be sold. This is true, but it is also true that every such regulation add to the costs. It is certainly a fair statement to understand that every person's material wealth is going to be less every time yet another regulation is passed. Many people, including apparently the OP, would be quite happy with a product without the current enviomentally extreme devices. I certainly would.
But most importantly, is the crushing burden of US regulations on the operation of a factory, mill, mine, or whatever. These regulations only need be met in the US. The EPA, and other regulators, kill 100s of 1000s of jobs every year with more and more burdens that must be passed on to the consumer. Since consumers will go for items of the lowest price, job creators will move their jobs to places with more reasonable regulations.
So it is certainly far to understand that, even if so called "Trans-plants" paid US level wages, one, a product many people desire such as the car in question, without all these "modern" features, could be made, but for government. And, two, any product (including those that meet US standards) can be made more economically because of the absense of job killing regulations. Or both.
It is easy to blame low paid workers for the transplants. They are only a small part of the causes.
Those regulations are, however, a major reason why new cars cost so much these days. All those extra airbags, automatic braking, etc. aren't cheap. Plus all the extra material to meet crash standards add weight to the car, which requires more R&D resources if the companies want to meet mileage standards. The extra bulk needed to meet crash standards made it more difficult to see, leading to the backup camera mandate (and the invention of side cameras). The crash standards also make repairs more expensive; when a car crumples, even what used to be a minor fender bender can total the car (not to mention the complexity of getting at the components of a modern car).
Normally I'm all in favor of having regulations to protect the environment and consumers (lord knows they're needed, given how badly corporations act if not restrained), but when it comes to cars, it's been getting ridiculous. We're at the point where the automakers are doing the equivalent of adjusting the margins and line spacing to meet a page count (the massive phase out of manuals is because the modern mileage standards can only be met by adding a large number of gears and telling the computer to upshift too soon). I think it's interesting that US car regulations are stricter than Europe's... normally, it's the other way around!
The price of new cars has actually decreased since 1996 relative to inflation.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 19, 2016, 02:14:22 PM
The price of new cars has actually decreased since 1996 relative to inflation.
The cost of all this now mandated safety equipment is marginal compared to what it used to cost. Remember, back in the day a mercedes having an airbag was a big deal.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 19, 2016, 02:14:22 PM
The price of new cars has actually decreased since 1996 relative to inflation.
Well, that's certainly something the NMA has never mentioned. Still, it certainly seems like cars are more unaffordable than they once were. A high school student used to be able to afford a decent car on a summer job. Not so now. The points on repair costs (which no doubt affect insurance costs) certainly still apply.
Cash for clunkers certainly didn't help on that front, decreasing the supply of used cars when demand was sky high due to the recession. Today, good used cars cost nearly as much as new (at least Hondas do, to the point where depreciation isn't really a thing within the first five years), and the only ones that are affordable are unreliable beaters.
I bought my car last year for $2700. I've put a lot of miles on it and it is supposedly worth $2100 now (very good condition). It was worth $2800 when I bought it, but a year and a half has passed and I've added nearly 30K miles to it since then. I'm hoping to get another 2 or more years out of it. I will probably get rid of it once it isn't reliable enough to take on long road trips anymore.
I'd like to say that in a couple of years I'll get a new car, but honestly I'm probably going to look for another car that is around 10 or so years old that runs great for around $3000. I like older cars because I can just purchase liability only insurance (as a young driver it is much cheaper for me), my plates are like $50 rather than $300, and I'm not driving a brand new car into Mexico (I don't want to look like a rich gringo).
Quote from: vdeane on August 20, 2016, 04:34:02 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 19, 2016, 02:14:22 PM
The price of new cars has actually decreased since 1996 relative to inflation.
Well, that's certainly something the NMA has never mentioned. Still, it certainly seems like cars are more unaffordable than they once were. A high school student used to be able to afford a decent car on a summer job. Not so now.
Yes, well, the price of a used car has gone through the roof. Not just because of cash for clunkers, but also because
1) with cars lasting longer than they used to, what used to be a true clunker with one foot in the grave is now middle aged.
2) Thanks to item number 1 the economics of buying a used car are better than they were in the past, even at higher prices, and there isn't a stigma on buying a used car like their used to be. This has driven some people to buy a used car even when they can afford a new one for the sake of saving a bit of money.
3) There has been a lot of predatory lending on auto loans which has people buying cars which are not really in the best position to afford them. Continually low interest rates affect this as well. Via bubble economics this drives the price up.
With everyone looking to buy used, this has naturally dragged the retail price of new cars down because demand for them is lower - so dealers have to entice people to buy new cars somehow in order to generate future used cars.
Quote from: corco on August 15, 2016, 11:59:19 PMI wonder how that would work - if you drove into Mexico in a 1993 Sentra, told customs you were going down to Mexico to get the car restored, which while an odd thing to do would be completely legal, and drove back up in a 2016 Tsuru with swapped VINs? Obviously the VIN-swapping would be illegal, but what method would they have to identify it - especially since we don't have exit controls in the U.S.?
It's pretty hard to track down every single part that has a VIN on it. On the 2005 Camry I use as a roadtrip vehicle, for example, I saw a VIN plate (that I was not at all expecting to see) on the back of the bumper assembly when I was inspecting damage from a deer collision. You can try swapout of the windshield VIN plate, the FMVSS certification labels, the emissions labels, etc. but any VIN-marked part you miss that Customs knows to look for will give the game away. There are bound to be VINs in locations (e.g., the spaceframe) that cannot reasonably be explained away as installation of salvage parts, and in any case it is a very strange 23-year-old car that has VIN-marked salvage parts from a vehicle barely a year old. And this is without getting into the issue that (1) VINs identify country of manufacture and (2) there is little above-ground international traffic in auto salvage parts.
Quote from: corco on August 15, 2016, 11:59:19 PMOr, for instance, if I lived in a state with no emissions testing, and drove a U.S. titled and registered 2016 Nissan Frontier to Mexico, and came back with the same 2016 Nissan Frontier, now with a Nissan diesel engine not available in the U.S., would that be legal? What level of car modification is legal to undertake in Mexico with a U.S. plated car?
There are a couple of layers to think about.
* Specific vehicle approval. If emissions from the diesel meets current federal standards, then it can be accepted as legal on a single-vehicle-import basis. Seeking this type of approval would require you to be open with Customs about having modified the vehicle, instead of trying to pull a fast one by them, hoping they don't look under the hood and that there are no other visible or audible indications of substantial modification in Mexico.
* Type approval. I believe this can be applied for only by the manufacturer, not by the individual owner. The main benefit of type approval is to avoid enforcement of specific compliance at the point of title issuance.
* Emissions and safety inspection. This is not an issue in a state that doesn't carry out such inspections, but can be an obstacle to replating in a jurisdiction that does, unless compliance can somehow be demonstrated (or faked).
There are ways to be quietly illegal. There are plenty of people running around with custom engine management programs that somehow manage to survive California emissions inspection. Similarly, there are plenty of people running HC-based A/C refrigerants in states that ban them. But insurability can be at issue. If, for example, you are knowingly running HC in a state that bans it, and you are in a crash where HC escaping from the A/C ignites and causes damage or injury, your insurance company can say you are not covered.
Quote from: kphoger on August 16, 2016, 11:27:03 AMQuote from: briantroutman on August 16, 2016, 11:15:15 AM
I think you're misunderstanding–the idea would be to drive a '93 Sentra into Mexico, then move its VIN plate to a 2016 Tsuru. So you would have a VIN that matches the temporary import record. The issue would be whether the swap could be done professionally enough to avoid either the Mexican or US authorities noticing that the VIN had been tampered with.
Ah, gotcha. But then you'd have a VIN on a different model of vehicle than the one you brought into México. The import paperwork includes manufacturer, model year, and VIN. Huge red flag.
I've already spelled out separately the reasons I don't think this scam would work (VIN-marked parts), but from the
aduanal point of view in Mexico there is no problem, aside from the one of transferring a temporary vehicle import sticker from one vehicle to another without destroying it. A 1993 Sentra comes into the country, and a 2016 Tsuru leaves the country with sticker, VIN identification, and badging belonging to the 1993 Sentra. The problem is left in the Mexican interior: somewhere in government records there is a 2016 Tsuru that has been granted a title in Mexico, and on which
tenencias (registration taxes) are owed, which no longer physically exists in Mexico.
Quote from: US 41 on August 15, 2016, 04:19:32 PM
I was looking at some car called a Nissan Tsuru. Apparently, you can buy a brand new one in Chihuahua, Mexico for $7800 USD, which is dirt cheap for a new vehicle. Below is a photo of it. They kind of look like my father's old K Car.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFnTqOY8SFlyb3kRgbRP-rZ81bbWYxxja8G4pCoBlrlczYbo3vr5lKjSzK)
There are some other cars down there that you can buy brand new for around $9K cheaper than you can in the good ol' USA where they constantly rip you off. So my question is could I take a greyhound bus down to Chihuahua, buy a Tsuru (or other car), bring it back to Indiana, and then get it plated here?
Uh, no, it's a bad idea. A very BAD idea.
Not only would there be an emissions issue, but the cars sold in Mexico are manufactured to a lower safety standard than what is required in the United States. That's why they're cheaper.
You are better off getting a previous daily rental from Hertz Car sales.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 22, 2016, 12:26:34 AM
Quote from: kphoger on August 16, 2016, 11:27:03 AMQuote from: briantroutman on August 16, 2016, 11:15:15 AM
I think you're misunderstanding–the idea would be to drive a '93 Sentra into Mexico, then move its VIN plate to a 2016 Tsuru. So you would have a VIN that matches the temporary import record. The issue would be whether the swap could be done professionally enough to avoid either the Mexican or US authorities noticing that the VIN had been tampered with.
Ah, gotcha. But then you'd have a VIN on a different model of vehicle than the one you brought into México. The import paperwork includes manufacturer, model year, and VIN. Huge red flag.
I've already spelled out separately the reasons I don't think this scam would work (VIN-marked parts), but from the aduanal point of view in Mexico there is no problem, aside from the one of transferring a temporary vehicle import sticker from one vehicle to another without destroying it. A 1993 Sentra comes into the country, and a 2016 Tsuru leaves the country with sticker, VIN identification, and badging belonging to the 1993 Sentra. The problem is left in the Mexican interior: somewhere in government records there is a 2016 Tsuru that has been granted a title in Mexico, and on which tenencias (registration taxes) are owed, which no longer physically exists in Mexico.
Either I'm misunderstanding you, or you're misunderstanding me. When you cancel your importation permit at Mexican customs, you'd be sitting in a car that says "Tsuru" on the back of it, while the paper you just handed the agent says "Sentra" on it, yet the VIN mysteriously matches. How could this be OK?
Quote from: kphoger on August 22, 2016, 01:39:29 PMEither I'm misunderstanding you, or you're misunderstanding me. When you cancel your importation permit at Mexican customs, you'd be sitting in a car that says "Tsuru" on the back of it, while the paper you just handed the agent says "Sentra" on it, yet the VIN mysteriously matches. How could this be OK?
The car would not actually say "Tsuru" on the back because the badge as well as the VIN labeling would be swapped in from the 1993 Sentra.
The real obstacle to this type of fraud is Customs inspection of VIN-marked parts on the US side. Dealing with those is far less straightforward than simply swapping out plates and labels. Also, we are assuming that a car manufactured in Mexico in 2016 will have at least the emissions control equipment that was required in the US in 1993, or at any rate has no major components obviously missing. I don't think this can be taken for granted. With all the smog in the Valle de Mexico the Mexican government has an incentive to regulate, but there is still a lag and I don't know exactly how large it is.
I still think the largest obstacle of all would be finding a Mexican who has a desirable, legal, registered vehicle, who is for some reason willing to trade it for your tampered-with, illegally imported vehicle that you're for some reason eager to part with.
Vehicle importation laws in Mexico are designed to protect the car manufacturing industry there, stemming the flow of well-cared-for used cars coming into the country to compete for buyers' pesos against brand-new Mexican-produced ones. The people who could benefit the most from less stringent regulations are the working poor, and it is for their sake that organizations of pseudo-thugs exist to issue phony license plates for chocolates (illegally imported cars with no Mexican registration) and bully the police into not impounding them. The people in Mexico who are willing to tag their car through such channels are not the type who currently own a car that anyone in their right mind would go to all this trouble to import back into the United States. Rather, they are the ones who cannot afford anything except an illegal junker on its last legs.
I don't think that is the scenario under discussion, which is essentially to "steal" the identity of a 1993 Sentra (North American spec) and apply it to a 2016 Tsuru (Mexican spec) with the object of driving it primarily in North America. Probably the safest thing to do with the 1993 Sentra once its identifying marks were transferred to the Tsuru would be to run it through a crusher on the quiet. The more complicated part of the transaction, I think, is to get the Tsuru off the Mexicans' books somehow.
You could probably get away with outright ditching your Sentra somewhere in the border zone after you stripped off everything you were going to put on the Tsuru. I'd imagine there's a bribe that would magically turn your Sentra into an "unfortunately totaled" Tsuru in some junkyard in Matamoros or Juarez. For that matter, just let someone steal it - it'd probably get parted out to fix more Tsurus.
At the other end of the deal the Mexican authorities will gladly let Mexicans buy new Tsurus in the border zone. Give your straw buyer a 10% finders fee and I doubt anyone south of the Rio Grande would care.
However... I'm 99.8% sure this entire charade would fall apart somewhere between the border and the inland United States, since you're going to have to roll through two border patrol checkpoints in your suspiciously new-looking "1993 Sentra" that looks different from the 1993 Sentra you drove south. (They also record every vehicle border-bound at these checkpoints.)
All that said, I think you could probably get a reliable mid-2000s used Sentra for cheap enough that going through this exercise in chicanery would be rather pointless except for the mild thrill of putting one over on Uncle Sam.
Quote from: lordsutch on August 22, 2016, 11:18:25 PM
You could probably get away with outright ditching your Sentra somewhere in the border zone after you stripped off everything you were going to put on the Tsuru. I'd imagine there's a bribe that would magically turn your Sentra into an "unfortunately totaled" Tsuru in some junkyard in Matamoros or Juarez. For that matter, just let someone steal it - it'd probably get parted out to fix more Tsurus.
At the other end of the deal the Mexican authorities will gladly let Mexicans buy new Tsurus in the border zone. Give your straw buyer a 10% finders fee and I doubt anyone south of the Rio Grande would care.
However... I'm 99.8% sure this entire charade would fall apart somewhere between the border and the inland United States, since you're going to have to roll through two border patrol checkpoints in your suspiciously new-looking "1993 Sentra" that looks different from the 1993 Sentra you drove south. (They also record every vehicle border-bound at these checkpoints.)
All that said, I think you could probably get a reliable mid-2000s used Sentra for cheap enough that going through this exercise in chicanery would be rather pointless except for the mild thrill of putting one over on Uncle Sam.
The secondary customs checkpoints are easy to avoid. I'm pretty sure they just put them on state highways. The easiest way to avoid them is to look on Google Maps and see where they're located and then just bypass them using county roads for a few miles.
Quote from: US 41 on August 23, 2016, 12:20:01 AM
The secondary customs checkpoints are easy to avoid. I'm pretty sure they just put them on state highways. The easiest way to avoid them is to look on Google Maps and see where they're located and then just bypass them using county roads for a few miles.
Free tip: if CBP was
that easy to avoid, people wouldn't pay thousands of bucks to get smuggled into the U.S.
BTW, there's another fly in the ointment: you also have to export enough cash or monetary instruments to pay for the car. Better hope it's under $10k US, because if it isn't and you don't disclose it, you've just committed a felony. And if you do disclose it, they'll probably seize it as drug money.
The border zone is not like relatively well-watered parts of the US, where you can count on at least one crossroad (typically under local jurisdiction) every mile. Often the state highway the Border Patrol camps out on is the only improved road for miles in either direction.
The $10,000 reporting requirement is not a huge obstacle since the purchase price of a Tsuru is less than that and most sundry expenses can be met by using a credit card as a cash pipeline across the border. But a VIN mismatch is definitely fatal. We also haven't looked closely at whether a 2016 Tsuru is an exact match to a 1993 Sentra in terms of styling. Minor variations are possible even if a Tsuru is in fact made from the same production equipment that was used 23 years earlier for the Sentra.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 23, 2016, 11:25:10 AM
We also haven't looked closely at whether a 2016 Tsuru is an exact match to a 1993 Sentra in terms of styling. Minor variations are possible even if a Tsuru is in fact made from the same production equipment that was used 23 years earlier for the Sentra.
Most obvious giveaways are the different grill, different headlamps (slightly more curve in the Tsuru's), as well as no orange reflector in the bumper (required if not in the headlamps, AFAIK).
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 22, 2016, 11:17:24 PM
I don't think that is the scenario under discussion, which is essentially to "steal" the identity of a 1993 Sentra (North American spec) and apply it to a 2016 Tsuru (Mexican spec) with the object of driving it primarily in North America. Probably the safest thing to do with the 1993 Sentra once its identifying marks were transferred to the Tsuru would be to run it through a crusher on the quiet. The more complicated part of the transaction, I think, is to get the Tsuru off the Mexicans' books somehow.
Well, the Tsuru has to come from
somewhere.
We cannot be talking about buying a car from a dealership in México, because dealerships require you to present your residency visa at the time of purchase, and most states also require a Mexican driver's license in order to transfer ownership, plus you would need to provide your address and phone number in México for the paperwork. You would not have any of these things. It is not possible to purchase a car from a dealership with just a tourist card.
We also cannot be talking about simply buying a car from a private party prior to doing the VIN swap, because the paperwork requirements would be basically the same, the only real difference being that you and the seller would be doing the legwork at the government office rather than the dealer doing it for you. Without having the title transferred from his name to yours, no seller would be willing to part with his car.
Nor can we be talking about buying from a private party after already having the VIN swap done, because no seller would be willing to watch an American drive his vehicle away with a VIN plate matching his title–payment received or not–especially a seller responsible and respectable enough to own the kind of car you're wanting to buy.
The only option I see left is a straight trade, in which case... see my original reply:
QuoteI still think the largest obstacle of all would be finding a Mexican who has a desirable, legal, registered vehicle, who is for some reason willing to trade it for your tampered-with, illegally imported vehicle that you're for some reason eager to part with.
Vehicle importation laws in Mexico are designed to protect the car manufacturing industry there, stemming the flow of well-cared-for used cars coming into the country to compete for buyers' pesos against brand-new Mexican-produced ones. The people who could benefit the most from less stringent regulations are the working poor, and it is for their sake that organizations of pseudo-thugs exist to issue phony license plates for chocolates (illegally imported cars with no Mexican registration) and bully the police into not impounding them. The people in Mexico who are willing to tag their car through such channels are not the type who currently own a car that anyone in their right mind would go to all this trouble to import back into the United States. Rather, they are the ones who cannot afford anything except an illegal junker on its last legs.
I really think people are underestimating...
(1) How much paperwork is involved in doing
anything in México;
(2) The likelihood that people who buy and sell cars for a living along the border would have already discovered such a loophole;
(3) The willingness of Mexican citizens to be involved in international fraud with a stranger from another country;
(4) The stringency of checks and balances in a lucrative industry such as international car sales.
These formalities (on the Mexican side) is why LordSutch suggested upthread that the scam could be made to work by having a straw purchaser buy the Tsuru, ostensibly for driving within Mexico. Depending on how the Mexicans handle vehicle thefts, it could be reported stolen once the VIN swap is done. This leaves VIN-marked parts and trim/equipment mismatches as the main potential stumbling blocks north of the border.
In regard to the four points raised: (1) Yes, Mexico is infamous for it taking three weeks to open a bank account, and it is harder for a gringo to develop the detailed knowledge of admin procedure required to hack it; (2) the financial payoff is slim once the hassle factor is taken into account; (3) narcotraficantes exist, though the problem of finding reliable partners for a criminal enterprise is universal; and (4) one test of the success of such checks and balances is whether they alter the balance of comparative advantage in favor of the legal option.
Just so we're clear, this kind of endeavor would involve committing state and federal crimes in two nations; hiring people in a country not your own to engage in criminal activity; risk of property seizure, fines, jail time, and deportation; and probably some things I'm forgetting. If leaving an unsalable vehicle in Mexico, it also indirectly aids organized crime by giving someone a reason to pay an organization like ONAPPAFA to "protect" your car that they now own from "unfairly" being impounded for having no valid registration.
The clear answer to the original question on this thread is NO. It is not legal to do this. It is very illegal in several ways. As we have shown by now, it would also be very difficult to pull off, require knowledge and the cooperation of shady enterprises and individuals in México, risk future registration problems in the USA, and present a serious ethical dilemma.
If there were a way to do this in anything resembling a legitimate manner, then people would already be making a living at it. There are people who make a living out of importing and exporting cars across the Mexican border, and this is something that is simply not done.
I agree; while it's a fun little thought experiment at the level of "how much of a computer's components can I replace before Microsoft makes me buy a new Windows license," with the added frisson of involving a half-dozen law enforcement agencies, bribery, Nissan Mexico, and grand theft auto, doing this would be colossally boneheaded even if you thought you'd covered all the bases.
The best you can do is to lobby Congress to harmonize FMVSS with the ECE/UN standards, perhaps via TTIP. But by that point I'd imagine Mexican cars will probably be much closer in safety and emission requirements to American ones (there's a reason they're discontinuing the Tsuru, after all, and it's not because Nissan wouldn't be happy to keep selling them to Mexican buyers if they could).
I don't think anyone in this thread has claimed that the basic VIN swap strategy under discussion, which was originally offered as a Gedankenexperiment, is, could be, or should be legal. I think we are all safe from allegations of being involved in criminally facilitative speech.
This said, the OP does raise an interesting point about the price differential between the US and Mexico. It is easy to blame that on higher regulatory overhead on this side of the border, and while that is certainly a factor, it is worth asking whether cars in the US have become relatively less affordable in the decades that highly similar cars (bar differences in equipment such as variable venturi carburetors in Mexico at a time throttle-body fuel injection was being used in the US) have been available on either side of the border.
It's also worth looking more closely at the question of whether lower prices in developing and medium-income countries are made possible by the use of production equipment that has been amortized in affluent countries. This may be true for some models (e.g. Nissan Sentra/Tsuru, Volkswagen Beetle, various iterations of the Toyota Mark II/Cressida), but not for others that are being produced simultaneously for the US and Mexican markets.
Like a lot of manufactured consumer goods like books, DVDs, and household appliances, I'd imagine cars sell for about the marginal cost of production in the developing world while being a little above the average cost of production in the developed world (excluding VAT/sales/import taxes). My Altima subsidized some guy in Mexico City's Tsuru; I paid $20 for a Blu-ray of the latest Star Wars because Disney had to dump it in Asia for $2 to compete with bootlegs.
Pharma is the extreme case, since the US is basically the only price-unregulated developed market, so the US consumer pays (directly or indirectly) well over the average cost of production to subsidize the production at marginal or somewhat-over-marginal cost for developing and price-capped markets.
Regulations in Third World counties are not what they are in United States.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on August 24, 2016, 03:24:03 PM
Regulations in Third World counties are not what they are in United States.
I'm not sure exactly what this is in reply to. There have already been several posts about how México has less stringent safety and emissions standards than the United States.
I'm also interested to see you apply the term "third world" to México. Historically speaking, México was a third-world nation because it was a neutral party during the Cold War. But, then, so were France and Sweden, yet nobody calls those places "third-world countries." I must assume, then, you mean that México is not a developed nation. Yet it ranks 74th in the world on the Human Development Index, above Brazil and China and Thailand. The UN categorizes México's level of human development as "high."
France was a member of NATO since it was founded in 1949. I'd hardly call that "neutral".
Wikipedia puts the break between using Third World to refer to nonaligned countries and using it exclusively to refer to developing countries/the Global South at around the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
These days I see Mexico referred to as a medium-income country. It has relatively high GDP (PPP) per capita for a country traditionally counted among the Global South, and has made massive investments (especially in highway infrastructure) in the last 25 years. However, it is still not a member of the of-course-drinkable-tap-water club, which is my personal favorite measure of high HDI.
About twenty or twenty-five years ago, when Turkey was still considered a promising candidate for EU accession, Lester Thurow wrote that Turkey was more likely to be accepted as an EU member than Mexico was to be taken into an immigration union with the US and Canada, because the gap in per capita GDP (PPP) between Turkey and the poorest country already in the EU was less than that between the poorest US state (Mississippi) and the richest Mexican state (one of the northern states--not sure if it was Chihuahua, Coahuila, or Nuevo Leon). There has been a considerable amount of economic growth since then, though I am not sure there has been enough in the poorer countries to disturb this analysis. Turkey is also not a member of the of-course-drinkable-tap-water club, although long-term residents have told me that trustworthiness of tap water there varies from city to city.
Given the recent issues with water contamination (West Virginia, Flint, Hoosick Falls, anywhere with fracking, etc.), I wouldn't consider the US to be a member of the of-course-drinkable-tap-water club any more either.
Quote from: vdeane on August 25, 2016, 06:09:13 PM
Given the recent issues with water contamination (West Virginia, Flint, Hoosick Falls, anywhere with fracking, etc.), I wouldn't consider the US to be a member of the of-course-drinkable-tap-water club any more either.
You're right. Sigh.
Quote from: vdeane on August 25, 2016, 06:09:13 PM
Given the recent issues with water contamination (West Virginia, Flint, Hoosick Falls, anywhere with fracking, etc.), I wouldn't consider the US to be a member of the of-course-drinkable-tap-water club any more either.
Heck even my school had this problem with the brown murky water. A water main broke near the school and thus we had problems with the water, and we were told not to drink from the fountains. There's still a weird taste to the water whenever I drink it, so it's possible that there's something iffy there.
I don't drink tap water at all unless its from my hometown. If I'm out of town I buy bottled water or a soft drink.
Rome was famous in antiquity for its excellent water from the aqueducts, and the Popes who restored the aqueducts to working order in the renaissance were considered to be heroes. The water is perfectly drinkable now and pretty good tasting. Yet when you order water in a restaurant in Rome, they bring bottled water. I suppose so they can charge 4 Euro for it.
I think some of it's cultural... I've heard that, in Europe, it's customary for the waiter to bring your cup with ice and your drink in the can/bottle, and you pour it yourself. This is probably to be consistent with that.
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2016, 06:32:01 PM
I think some of it's cultural... I've heard that, in Europe, it's customary for the waiter to bring your cup with ice and your drink in the can/bottle, and you pour it yourself. This is probably to be consistent with that.
(As I'm sure you're aware) most countries outside of North America don't offer free refills; when I was in the UK, most of my drinks came on-ice. But the continentals may do it differently. Perhaps to make the idea of refills
not being free easier to understand, they just bring the bottle or can -- if you want another, you buy another.
I think I first heard it in middle school Spanish class, so it might just be Spain, but I would guess it's a continental thing. I heard it was to prevent the drink from becoming watery as the ice melts.
I think this is pertinent to the conversation, posted by a reliable source just five days ago. FYI, an
amparo is a special judicial action which had allowed some un-import-able vehicles import-ability to México. The process whereby this was happening allowed people to steal vehicles in the USA and import them into México before the database caught up with them. This is the kind of thing you have to understand in order to wrap your head around the vehicle importation rules in México.
Quote from: MexConnect.com forums
Prior to Sept. 2014, Aduana did not check to see if American-titled vehicles had been legally exported from the US.
As a part of a US-CBP + Aduana effort to stop auto theft gangs from moving stolen cars across the border, Aduana cracked down on a number of dubious amparos - arresting the judge(s) who issued them, cancelled the amparos, jailed a number of Mexican customs brokers & 'facilitators' ... and jailed Aduana agents who also helped facilitate the prior years of illegal auto permanent imports under those amparos. [One such facilitator] reported that the Aduana office processing her special amparo auto-import deals had all of her records seized and put on lock-down.
That's how [she] got some gringo cars caught in the web of prosecutions ... with no plates, no pedimentos, and no refunds for over a year, according to [her] Facebook page.
Because the car theft gangs found that when they moved a car into Mexico in just a day after being stolen, (permanently imported under [her] prior amparo), they realized that the Mexican & US police databases of stolen cars were not being updated for 2-3 days - giving the thieves a window of time to use the amparo, without the stolen cars showing up in police databases.
The US CBP put pressure on Aduana to close this loophole. In Sept 2014 Aduana responded by implementing a NEW requirement that EVERY American-titled vehicle have it's US title clearly stamped as 'CANCELLED' by CBP.
Since CBP rules since 1994 required that American-titled vehicles be put 'on-hold' for 72 hrs, to check US police databases for the legal status of the vehicle ... when Aduana adopted the rule to have every US-titled vehicle have its title stamped 'cancelled' before being allowed to be processed for permanent import into Mexico... that basically closed the car-thieves loophole.
Note that US CBP issued a formal technical ruling in 2015 that a US-titled vehicle taken out of the USA for more than [twelve] continuous months, should be formally exported. We know of no examples of enforcement of this rule in the meantime ... but know that the Federal Law on this provides for a minimum of $500 in fines and being convicted of a Federal Felony if caught.
[This] leaves people taking their US-titled vehicles into Mexico as pseudo-imports ... at risk of both US felony convictions ... and potentially having their cars seized, if [their faciliator's] amparo gets cancelled.
Also note that [this facilitator's] process opens the same loophole that cross-border auto-theft gangs used in the past (by ignoring the US legal CBP required export process) ... it seems to support potential auto thefts - triggering potential future government crackdowns - as happened to her in 2014 through 2015
As you can see, there are concerted and internationally cooperative efforts to ensure people do not leave vehicles in México that weren't properly imported. The system is actively seeking to prevent people from succeeding in precisely the kind of endeavor being suggested in this thread. Felony charges, thousands of dollars in fines, and jail time are all very real possibilities for those found in violation of the law here.
Quote from: kphoger on September 03, 2016, 03:29:34 PM
México...México...México...México
I know we aren't supposed to comment on grammar, but I'm going to anyway: you don't need to put an accent over the "e" when you're writing in English.
México is Spanish.
Mexico is English. Given that the rest of what you wrote was in English, it's better to not use the accent. It's the equivalent of writing "España" over and over again, instead of Spain.
That said, I can tell you understand Spanish far better than I do, so if you disagree, by all means keep using the accent (let me know if my assessment of the issue here is incorrect, as well).
Someone mentioned that most countries don't offer free refills on drinks outside of North America. So do most places in Mexico offer free refills? I've never really considered this before.
Quote from: vdeane on August 26, 2016, 06:32:01 PM
I think some of it's cultural... I've heard that, in Europe, it's customary for the waiter to bring your cup with ice and your drink in the can/bottle, and you pour it yourself. This is probably to be consistent with that.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2016, 07:09:51 PM
(As I'm sure you're aware) most countries outside of North America don't offer free refills; when I was in the UK, most of my drinks came on-ice. But the continentals may do it differently. Perhaps to make the idea of refills not being free easier to understand, they just bring the bottle or can -- if you want another, you buy another.
Quote from: vdeane on August 27, 2016, 02:04:42 PM
I think I first heard it in middle school Spanish class, so it might just be Spain, but I would guess it's a continental thing. I heard it was to prevent the drink from becoming watery as the ice melts.
Quote from: US 41 on September 04, 2016, 04:29:16 PM
Someone mentioned that most countries don't offer free refills on drinks outside of North America. So do most places in Mexico offer free refills? I've never really considered this before.
Since the topic at hand (importing a Nissan Tsuru) has run its course, hopefully the OP won't mind me making an off-topic comment.
The whole pour it yourself/no refills business doesn't have its roots in some esoteric old world/new world cultural divide or anything of the sort. It's much simpler.
The vast majority of restaurants in the U.S.–from franchised Chili's and Applebee's locations to neighborhood diners and local sandwich shops–have soda fountains. Once a restaurant has paid a local beverage distributor to install the necessary equipment, the restauranteur's marginal cost to provide refills is almost zero. On top of that, the menu price for a fountain beverage is usually high enough that, even with multiple refills, the beverage remains a highly profitable portion of the total check.
Elsewhere in the world, soda fountains are not nearly as prevalent–and since refills cost the restauranteur a measurable amount, they're not free. Your server could simply pre-pour the bottle or can for you, but the ice would begin diluting the beverage before you might be ready to drink it (as was mentioned), and also there is a generally established practice of providing products which come in single-serve containers directly to the customer (creamers, butter/jam containers, wine and beer bottles). With a fountain, the server has no choice but to pre pour.
And as further evidence: If you go into a hole in the wall pizza joint or Chinese restaurant in the U.S. that
doesn't have a soda fountain, you'll get the European treatment.
That's not to say that soda fountains don't exist outside the U.S.–they do. But they enjoyed much greater popularity in the U.S., first through drugstores and later in restaurants. Coupled with the American "more and cheaper is better" ethic (also less prevalent elsewhere, particularly in Europe), the soda's low cost led to the use of free refills as a marketing ploy in the war to attract Middle America's dining dollars. Once
FREE REFILLS became fully entrenched in the American psyche, how could any restauranteur roll back to the pay-as-you-go past? It would be akin to a midlevel motel NOT offering the "complimentary continental breakfast" that was unheard of a few decades ago–no matter how stale or puny that breakfast might be.
I think the only restaurant I've been to in México that had a serve-yourself soda fountain was a Burger King in Monclova, Coahuila. At all other pay-ahead restaurants I've been to, you are handed a bottle from behind the counter upon ordering, and refills (more bottles) cost extra (including Subway and Church's Chicken locations I've been to). Nicer sit-down restaurants do sometimes offer free refills, but even those are often in the form of a bottle delivered to your table. As already mentioned, the prevalence of soda fountains is noticeably less there than here.
Regarding the spelling of México versus Mexico... This is a fuzzy topic when it comes to what's "right." Should I call the African country Côte d'Ivoire, Cote d'Ivoire, or Ivory Coast? Should I call the German city Düsseldorf , Duesseldorf, or Dusseldorf? Should I call the Brazilian city São Paulo or Sao Paulo? Should I call the Canadian province Québec or Quebec? Should I call the Spanish city Málaga or Malaga? I think most people would be fine with either one in all those cases, but maybe I'm wrong. It's not like I'm saying Ãsland instead of Iceland, Wien instead of Vienna, or Cameroun instead of Cameroon. All in doing is adding the diacritic
Quote from: US 41 on September 04, 2016, 04:29:16 PM
Someone mentioned that most countries don't offer free refills on drinks outside of North America. So do most places in Mexico offer free refills? I've never really considered this before.
Yes, in some restaurants (mostly all in certain beverages such sodas and prepared), they do offer refills, fast food restaurants it's a must like KFC, McDonalds, Burger King, Carls Jr and so.
It is a fuzzy topic indeed, and in the past I have written México in English, but I think I would omit the diacritic in this case because it is just uncommon enough in English to rub against native English speakers.
I would suggest a decision rule: given a choice between a name with and without diacritic, use the one without the diacritic (in English writing) if it returns more hits on an English-speaking Google and usages without the diacritic are in the majority of the first ten or so hits. By this test "Mexico" clearly wins out over "México": 1.29 billion without diacritic versus 736 million with diacritic, and none of the top results features "México." "Düsseldorf" also wins out over "Dusseldorf": the number of hits is approximately the same (105 million with, 121 million without), but the majority of the top hits when searching without the umlaut do spell the name with the umlaut. (While native German speakers do insert the e after vowels in contexts where the umlaut is unavailable, e.g. 128-character ASCII, I try to steer clear of this because it can lead to hypercorrection, e.g. "Göbbels.") Similarly, "Côte d'Ivoire" wins out over "Cote d'Ivoire" because the latter returns fewer hits (111 million versus 156 million), although the top hits for both are fairly evenly mixed between the forms with and without circumflex.
Quote from: kphoger on September 06, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Regarding the spelling of México versus Mexico... This is a fuzzy topic when it comes to what's "right."
Don't forget Hawaii versus Hawai'i. One of my friends is ethnic Hawaiian and insists on including the apostrophe, which represents a glottal stop.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 08, 2016, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 06, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Regarding the spelling of México versus Mexico... This is a fuzzy topic when it comes to what's "right."
Don't forget Hawaii versus Hawai'i. One of my friends is ethnic Hawaiian and insists on including the apostrophe, which represents a glottal stop.
It's called an "okina", and is an essential part of Hawai'ian.
Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 08, 2016, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 06, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Regarding the spelling of México versus Mexico... This is a fuzzy topic when it comes to what's "right."
Don't forget Hawaii versus Hawai'i. One of my friends is ethnic Hawaiian and insists on including the apostrophe, which represents a glottal stop.
It's called an "okina", and is an essential part of Hawai'ian.
I can finally correct everyone at school and all of those maps that it's really "Hawai'i". And that Google auto correction software is always wrong.
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 08, 2016, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 08, 2016, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 06, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Regarding the spelling of México versus Mexico... This is a fuzzy topic when it comes to what's "right."
Don't forget Hawaii versus Hawai'i. One of my friends is ethnic Hawaiian and insists on including the apostrophe, which represents a glottal stop.
It's called an "okina", and is an essential part of Hawai'ian.
I can finally correct everyone at school and all of those maps that it's really "Hawai'i". And that Google auto correction software is always wrong.
Maybe hold off, though, unless you're prepared to also insist that the maps show "Deutschland"...
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 08, 2016, 10:20:28 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 08, 2016, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 08, 2016, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 06, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Regarding the spelling of México versus Mexico... This is a fuzzy topic when it comes to what's "right."
Don't forget Hawaii versus Hawai'i. One of my friends is ethnic Hawaiian and insists on including the apostrophe, which represents a glottal stop.
It's called an "okina", and is an essential part of Hawai'ian.
I can finally correct everyone at school and all of those maps that it's really "Hawai'i". And that Google auto correction software is always wrong.
Maybe hold off, though, unless you're prepared to also insist that the maps show "Deutschland"...
Yep. The legal state name is Hawaii. Spelling it with an apostrophe is incorrect. That said, the islands are legally
the Hawai'ian Island, and the big island is
Hawai'i. But the state name?
Hawaii.
I have to ask, if you buy a car in a foreign country with stricter standards than the US, are you allowed to import it into the US? I'd assume so, since it'd likely be able to meet the minimum requirements for cars here in the US with ease.
Quote from: freebrickproductions on September 16, 2016, 05:43:00 PM
I have to ask, if you buy a car in a foreign country with stricter standards than the US, are you allowed to import it into the US? I'd assume so, since it'd likely be able to meet the minimum requirements for cars here in the US with ease.
Short answer: no. It's not a matter of having stricter standards or looser standards, it's a matter of meeting
exact specifications.
For example, European lighting standards have long allowed the use of much higher output halogen headlamps that used a removable bulb with a fixed reflector built into the car. But the use of these superior headlamps was illegal in the U.S., where inferior sealed beam headlights–1930s technology–were made mandatory in 1940. It wasn't until 1983 that the U.S. allowed the use of aerodynamic headlamps.
Apparently, my own car (a 7th gen. Volkswagen Golf) had its tail lamps redesigned (and made inferior) for the U.S. market. European models get tail lamp clusters with brighter LED brake lights and inset amber LED turn signals–both features that make the car more conspicuous and therefore safer. But apparently, the U.S. standard requires an arbitrary "square inches of illuminated area" which the European designed cluster doesn't meet. So what do U.S.-bound Golfs get? Incandescent red tail lamps and signals which merely flash the red tail lamp on the side you're turning–yes, like 1940 Chevy.
This is tangential, but I actually rather wish we would abolish the carve-out for red rear turn signals; the last car I had with them was a 1978 Chevrolet Impala. The only area of automotive lighting regulation where I would have serious concerns about harmonizing with international regulations is cornering lamps, which are apparently forbidden overseas (and not nearly as common on cars sold in the US market as they were in the 1980's--my last car with cornering lamps was a 1986 Nissan Maxima).
Quote from: briantroutman on September 16, 2016, 06:21:42 PM
Apparently, my own car (a 7th gen. Volkswagen Golf) had its tail lamps redesigned (and made inferior) for the U.S. market. European models get tail lamp clusters with brighter LED brake lights and inset amber LED turn signals–both features that make the car more conspicuous and therefore safer. But apparently, the U.S. standard requires an arbitrary "square inches of illuminated area" which the European designed cluster doesn't meet. So what do U.S.-bound Golfs get? Incandescent red tail lamps and signals which merely flash the red tail lamp on the side you're turning–yes, like 1940 Chevy.
I too am an owner of a Golf "7", and this particular feature drives me crazy, even if I never see the tail lamps blink. I do see myself replacing the lights on the vehicle with the European lamps in the future.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 09, 2016, 09:50:56 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 08, 2016, 10:20:28 PM
Quote from: noelbotevera on September 08, 2016, 10:03:33 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 08, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 08, 2016, 01:10:43 AM
Quote from: kphoger on September 06, 2016, 08:16:20 PM
Regarding the spelling of México versus Mexico... This is a fuzzy topic when it comes to what's "right."
Don't forget Hawaii versus Hawai'i. One of my friends is ethnic Hawaiian and insists on including the apostrophe, which represents a glottal stop.
It's called an "okina", and is an essential part of Hawai'ian.
I can finally correct everyone at school and all of those maps that it's really "Hawai'i". And that Google auto correction software is always wrong.
Maybe hold off, though, unless you're prepared to also insist that the maps show "Deutschland"...
Yep. The legal state name is Hawaii. Spelling it with an apostrophe is incorrect. That said, the islands are legally the Hawai'ian Island, and the big island is Hawai'i. But the state name? Hawaii.
Spelling it with an apostrophe is incorrect either way because an apostrophe is not the same thing as an okina, although of course a particular keyboard or typeface (or turning off so-called "smart quotes") can render the distinction irrelevant in some situations.
It's similar to how it's all too common these days to see people incorrectly using an opening single quotation mark instead of an apostrophe when they're truncating the beginning of a word, such as on the sign here at a UVA football game some years ago. This is why I said "so-called 'smart quotes'" in the previous paragraph–MS Word doesn't handle this situation correctly and most users assume that whatever formatting the software applies is correct.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FApostrophe.jpg&hash=1d17c99e54a24f01c5b73bb9345f0c63204a490b)
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 01, 2016, 01:13:57 PM
It's similar to how it's all too common these days to see people incorrectly using an opening single quotation mark instead of an apostrophe when they're truncating the beginning of a word, such as on the sign here at a UVA football game some years ago. This is why I said "so-called 'smart quotes'" in the previous paragraph–MS Word doesn't handle this situation correctly and most users assume that whatever formatting the software applies is correct.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FApostrophe.jpg&hash=1d17c99e54a24f01c5b73bb9345f0c63204a490b)
Thank goodness there are those willing to fight the wars that so many of us are not.
Relevant to the subject of this thread: why the Tsuru is being taken off the market. http://jalopnik.com/horrifying-crash-test-against-a-modern-car-shows-why-me-1788423100 (http://jalopnik.com/horrifying-crash-test-against-a-modern-car-shows-why-me-1788423100)
Yeah, that's quite a deformed A-pillar on the red car...The odd thing is that result was probably "average" for the crash-test ratings of its time (1991-92), although the variety of required crash tests performed a the time were minimal compared to today.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.straitstimes.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Farticle_pictrure_780x520_%2Fpublic%2Farticles%2F2016%2F10%2F29%2F13-40335599_-_28_10_2016_-_usa-autocrash_.jpg&hash=ceb84720d0f8f3031fd1685055c41a3dbbab59ce)
As a number of race drivers, motorcyclists, and bicyclists have said before: it's okay buy a $20 helmet if you have a 20-dollar head.
Here's what I don't understand. How can we have such strict emissions standards, but yet the rednecks can put chips in their diesel trucks to make them blow out a ridiculous amount of black smoke? How is that not illegal? :confused:
Quote from: US 41 on November 01, 2016, 07:25:39 PMHere's what I don't understand. How can we have such strict emissions standards, but yet the rednecks can put chips in their diesel trucks to make them blow out a ridiculous amount of black smoke? How is that not illegal? :confused:
It is illegal. It is against federal law to disable an emissions control device. However, enforcement is left up to the states, and tuners get around state-level enforcement regimes by temporarily restoring the factory settings before taking the car in for inspection.
Quote from: J N Winkler on November 01, 2016, 07:32:20 PM
It is illegal. It is against federal law to disable an emissions control device. However, enforcement is left up to the states, and tuners get around state-level enforcement regimes by temporarily restoring the factory settings before taking the car in for inspection.
And most states don't require inspections except in EPA non-attainment areas (some of those have even been phased out, like in Memphis). Even states that do require inspections don't always look at emissions; I don't think any of the southeastern states that require inspections check for emissions issues statewide (I know LA, MS, TX, and VA don't).
Editorializing, I tend to think the inspection stickers in most of the southern states are largely there to target poor and minority drivers and give law enforcement another excuse for pulling people over; I don't think there's any real evidence that they have a meaningful positive safety effect overall.