Just back in Minnesota & Wisconsin after 10 years of living in Texas. I forgot about the awful 2 lane freeway. Heading 3 hours from Saint Paul to Tomah, NO ONE would get out of the left lane. I was ready to exit and take back roads. Funny thing is it was pouring rain on the way back and we didn't have those problems.
This is why I say that Wisconsin has plenty of routes that have upgraded to four-lanes over the past 20-30 years. Now they have to concentrate on adding capacity to existing routes. I-94 should be at least three lanes for its entire length in Wisconsin.
I was thinking about this on my own long distance road trip last week. imho, I-94 3 lanes each way is justified in most, but not quite all of the state. The portion between Eau Claire and Tomah is still low-volume enough for just 2. I'd save that stretch for last if an upgrade were to happen, but it's not on the cards as I understand it, except for 6 miles near me between exits 4 and 10.
Even 3 lane (each way) freeways can have the left-lane hog problem. I encountered a bad case of one yesterday driving to Toronto on the 401. There were 2 empty lanes to his right, but this pickup truck driver felt he had the right to drive in the left lane I guess. Even after I passed him on the right, I didn't see him move over. :angry:
But of course, a 3 lane freeway is still better than 2 lanes for this problem.
Funny enough, I didn't have left lane hog problems in Minnesota or Wisconsin (or coming back to the northwest through ND, MT, ID and WA). If a car in the left lane got passed on the right, they moved over.
Crossing into Oregon, however... x.x
Quote from: texaskdog on August 22, 2016, 09:40:57 AM
Just back in Minnesota & Wisconsin after 10 years of living in Texas. I forgot about the awful 2 lane freeway. Heading 3 hours from Saint Paul to Tomah, NO ONE would get out of the left lane. I was ready to exit and take back roads. Funny thing is it was pouring rain on the way back and we didn't have those problems.
I don't know if they don't teach Keep to Right Except to Pass in Wisconsin or what, but taking I-39/90/94 from Chicago to the twin cities is enough to drive me insane. No one will move to the right and no one will pass on the right, either, leaving a parade of 20 cars that you have to leap frog to get around. It's the worst around Madison, even when it's three lanes. And bus and truck drivers seem to suffer the same afflictions, even if they're from out of state. It's raising my blood pressure just thinking about it.
I think you are speaking of four-laned freeways and not two-laned freeways. There aren't too many of those around.
Quote from: Jericho That on August 23, 2016, 08:09:25 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on August 22, 2016, 09:40:57 AM
Just back in Minnesota & Wisconsin after 10 years of living in Texas. I forgot about the awful 2 lane freeway. Heading 3 hours from Saint Paul to Tomah, NO ONE would get out of the left lane. I was ready to exit and take back roads. Funny thing is it was pouring rain on the way back and we didn't have those problems.
I don't know if they don't teach Keep to Right Except to Pass in Wisconsin or what, but taking I-39/90/94 from Chicago to the twin cities is enough to drive me insane. No one will move to the right and no one will pass on the right, either, leaving a parade of 20 cars that you have to leap frog to get around. It's the worst around Madison, even when it's three lanes. And bus and truck drivers seem to suffer the same afflictions, even if they're from out of state. It's raising my blood pressure just thinking about it.
It sucks. What's wrong with people????
Quote from: texaskdog on August 23, 2016, 01:50:15 PM
Quote from: Jericho That on August 23, 2016, 08:09:25 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on August 22, 2016, 09:40:57 AM
Just back in Minnesota & Wisconsin after 10 years of living in Texas. I forgot about the awful 2 lane freeway. Heading 3 hours from Saint Paul to Tomah, NO ONE would get out of the left lane. I was ready to exit and take back roads. Funny thing is it was pouring rain on the way back and we didn't have those problems.
I don't know if they don't teach Keep to Right Except to Pass in Wisconsin or what, but taking I-39/90/94 from Chicago to the twin cities is enough to drive me insane. No one will move to the right and no one will pass on the right, either, leaving a parade of 20 cars that you have to leap frog to get around. It's the worst around Madison, even when it's three lanes. And bus and truck drivers seem to suffer the same afflictions, even if they're from out of state. It's raising my blood pressure just thinking about it.
It sucks. What's wrong with people????
Too many FIBs in Wisconsin.
What's wrong with two-lane freeways? If the traffic demands don't warrant four lanes (or won't for some time), why shouldn't two-lane freeways be built?
I've seen plenty of middle and left lane campers on 3 lane carriageways all over the country. Bad human drivers are everywhere.
Get used to the existing condition on most of I-94. Other than the delayed expansion in Milwaukee (Stadium Interchange, etc) these are the only studies on I-94 that will probably lead to expansion:
Portage to the far side of the Dells:
http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/9094/default.aspx (http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/sw/9094/default.aspx)
Hudson area to WI 65:
http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/nw/i94corridor/default.aspx (http://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/projects/by-region/nw/i94corridor/default.aspx)
Quote from: Jericho That on August 23, 2016, 08:09:25 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on August 22, 2016, 09:40:57 AM
Just back in Minnesota & Wisconsin after 10 years of living in Texas. I forgot about the awful 2 lane freeway. Heading 3 hours from Saint Paul to Tomah, NO ONE would get out of the left lane. I was ready to exit and take back roads. Funny thing is it was pouring rain on the way back and we didn't have those problems.
I don't know if they don't teach Keep to Right Except to Pass in Wisconsin or what, but taking I-39/90/94 from Chicago to the twin cities is enough to drive me insane. No one will move to the right and no one will pass on the right, either, leaving a parade of 20 cars that you have to leap frog to get around. It's the worst around Madison, even when it's three lanes. And bus and truck drivers seem to suffer the same afflictions, even if they're from out of state. It's raising my blood pressure just thinking about it.
Possibly the scariest case of road rage I've been involved in was related to a left lane hog on 90/94 in Wisconsin. And this was after dark with snow on the highway. I've certainly seen more left lane dawdlers in Wisconsin than anywhere else who speed up
to prevent sometime from passing on the right yet refuse to vacate the left lane.
Minnesota has more a more abysmal record when it comes to the total frequency of left lane hogging. However, nobody there cares one bit, and traffic just moved along in whatever lane happens to be convenient or appealing at the time. I've never seen road rage in Minnesota.
Related: US (I) 41 in Appleton, WI after exit 139 (WI-15) is only two lanes in each direction. With 70,000 cars using that road per day, you'd think the DOT would six-lane it, especially considering it's that way south of 15, but for some reason they haven't. With the ever increasing traffic counts, it'll probably only get worse.
I've detailed elsewhere my confusion at I-55 being two lanes through Springfield IL, while the 20 miles to the north and 5 miles to the south are three lanes.
When the I94 bridges are being replaced the new ones are extra wide almost as if to be for a future 3rd lane. The bridge over the Chippewa river in Eau Claire is still very narrow though.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on August 23, 2016, 06:20:59 PM
What's wrong with two-lane freeways? If the traffic demands don't warrant four lanes (or won't for some time), why shouldn't two-lane freeways be built?
I'm thinking they are referring to four lane freeways, just using the wrong terminology. The only two lane freeway I've seen around here is the Freeport IL bypass where the cash isn't available to finish the other side of the highway.
Quote from: kphoger on August 23, 2016, 08:37:14 PM
Possibly the scariest case of road rage I've been involved in was related to a left lane hog on 90/94 in Wisconsin. And this was after dark with snow on the highway.
I've learned to never get in the left lane in the snow no matter how slow it seems and just follow some semi truck. All the 18 wheelers seem to create fairly stable traction ruts in the snow on the main lane, but veer out and you suddenly find you have no traction and can't pass.
Quote from: inkyatari on August 25, 2016, 12:00:28 PM
I've detailed elsewhere my confusion at I-55 being two lanes through Springfield IL, while the 20 miles to the north and 5 miles to the south are three lanes.
Yes, dislike that stretch, must be an older part of the highway too narrow to 6 lane, note the awful, low circumference cloverleaf from I72 WB to I55 SB. Looks like an existing route had this function grafted onto it. Coming off that cloverleaf you really have to put the pedal to the medal for the very short merge with 70mph clogged 18 wheeler traffic barreling down 55 and hope you don't have an underpowered minivan right front of you blocking a full on acceleration attempt.
Quote from: RandomDude172 on August 25, 2016, 08:09:00 AM
Related: US (I) 41 in Appleton, WI after exit 139 (WI-15) is only two lanes in each direction. With 70,000 cars using that road per day, you'd think the DOT would six-lane it, especially considering it's that way south of 15, but for some reason they haven't. With the ever increasing traffic counts, it'll probably only get worse.
I remember seeing a year or so ago that WisDOT is starting to study six-lane upgrades for I-41 between WI 15 and Scheuring Rd. Traffic levels on it have been exploding over the last decade or so.
Mike
Quote from: captkirk_4 on August 27, 2016, 02:35:06 PM
Quote from: inkyatari on August 25, 2016, 12:00:28 PM
I've detailed elsewhere my confusion at I-55 being two lanes through Springfield IL, while the 20 miles to the north and 5 miles to the south are three lanes.
Yes, dislike that stretch, must be an older part of the highway too narrow to 6 lane, note the awful, low circumference cloverleaf from I72 WB to I55 SB. Looks like an existing route had this function grafted onto it. Coming off that cloverleaf you really have to put the pedal to the medal for the very short merge with 70mph clogged 18 wheeler traffic barreling down 55 and hope you don't have an underpowered minivan right front of you blocking a full on acceleration attempt.
I-55 across Illinois was built in phases. As with other areas, the stretch through Springfield (much like with other populated areas) was built some time before each of the stretches North and South of it. Basically, those newer stretches were built with an eventual upgrade in Springfield in mind, which, to date, has not materialized. There is a study ongoing of upgrading this stretch, and money has been programmed for studies and (I think) engineering, but nothing at this time for construction. It's going to eventually need to happen, and hopefully some of the narrow interchanges see improvements along with the additional lanes.
Quote from: mgk920 on August 27, 2016, 03:58:31 PM
I remember seeing a year or so ago that WisDOT is starting to study six-lane upgrades for I-41 between WI 15 and Scheuring Rd. Traffic levels on it have been exploding over the last decade or so.
Mike
Good thing we have plenty of money for road projects!! :-D
Quote from: mgk920 on August 27, 2016, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: RandomDude172 on August 25, 2016, 08:09:00 AM
Related: US (I) 41 in Appleton, WI after exit 139 (WI-15) is only two lanes in each direction. With 70,000 cars using that road per day, you'd think the DOT would six-lane it, especially considering it's that way south of 15, but for some reason they haven't. With the ever increasing traffic counts, it'll probably only get worse.
I remember seeing a year or so ago that WisDOT is starting to study six-lane upgrades for I-41 between WI 15 and Scheuring Rd. Traffic levels on it have been exploding over the last decade or so.
Mike
It's about time that they do so - glad I'm not the only one to notice how busy it gets. :nod:
I do find it interesting that nearly all of the bridges (all of them after this summer) on I-94 in western Waukesha County are wide enough to handle three lanes and have been for decades.
The hard part is already done.
And speaking of that section; the new bridges over the interstate at WI 67 have a ton of space beneath them; way more than is needed for a six lane freeway. Sure the EB side as an acceleration lane for the loop ramp, but not the WB side. Makes me wonder if WisDOT has some "secret" future plans for another loop ramp at this interchange.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 28, 2016, 10:12:57 PM
Makes me wonder if WisDOT has some "secret" future plans for another loop ramp at this interchange.
I don't think there are any "secret" plans, just some hedging of bets. With a bridge project like this, you best plan for all eventual possibilities, even if you don't think you'll ever need them.
As for bridge widening, they did the same thing along I-43 in Waukesha County a few years ago. All of the bridges there are ready for an extra lane.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 28, 2016, 10:12:57 PM
I do find it interesting that nearly all of the bridges (all of them after this summer) on I-94 in western Waukesha County are wide enough to handle three lanes and have been for decades.
The hard part is already done.
And speaking of that section; the new bridges over the interstate at WI 67 have a ton of space beneath them; way more than is needed for a six lane freeway. Sure the EB side as an acceleration lane for the loop ramp, but not the WB side. Makes me wonder if WisDOT has some "secret" future plans for another loop ramp at this interchange.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm curious if the Madison-Milwaukee-Chicago high speed rail was going to parallel I-94 through there. I'm probably wrong, but it's possible.
Quote from: GeekJedi on August 29, 2016, 07:57:59 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 28, 2016, 10:12:57 PM
Makes me wonder if WisDOT has some "secret" future plans for another loop ramp at this interchange.
I don't think there are any "secret" plans, just some hedging of bets. With a bridge project like this, you best plan for all eventual possibilities, even if you don't think you'll ever need them.
As for bridge widening, they did the same thing along I-43 in Waukesha County a few years ago. All of the bridges there are ready for an extra lane.
Florida widened interstate bridges to accommodate additional median lane on i95 from Jacksonville to i4 around 1990. The rest of the road was widened in the early 2000s. Other interstate had similar projects
Quote from: skluth on August 30, 2016, 10:54:12 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 28, 2016, 10:12:57 PM
I do find it interesting that nearly all of the bridges (all of them after this summer) on I-94 in western Waukesha County are wide enough to handle three lanes and have been for decades.
The hard part is already done.
And speaking of that section; the new bridges over the interstate at WI 67 have a ton of space beneath them; way more than is needed for a six lane freeway. Sure the EB side as an acceleration lane for the loop ramp, but not the WB side. Makes me wonder if WisDOT has some "secret" future plans for another loop ramp at this interchange.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm curious if the Madison-Milwaukee-Chicago high speed rail was going to parallel I-94 through there. I'm probably wrong, but it's possible.
No it was going to be further north. Roughly running along the WI-16/WI-19 corridor.
Quote from: skluth on August 30, 2016, 10:54:12 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on August 28, 2016, 10:12:57 PM
I do find it interesting that nearly all of the bridges (all of them after this summer) on I-94 in western Waukesha County are wide enough to handle three lanes and have been for decades.
The hard part is already done.
And speaking of that section; the new bridges over the interstate at WI 67 have a ton of space beneath them; way more than is needed for a six lane freeway. Sure the EB side as an acceleration lane for the loop ramp, but not the WB side. Makes me wonder if WisDOT has some "secret" future plans for another loop ramp at this interchange.
This is pure speculation on my part, but I'm curious if the Madison-Milwaukee-Chicago high speed rail was going to parallel I-94 through there. I'm probably wrong, but it's possible.
The proposal was to upgrade an existing branch line, the former MILW route between Watertown and Madison, and use the existing CP (ex MILW) mainline from there to downtown Milwaukee. The project's astronomical cost (+/- $800M) was due to having to dig the roadbeds of several lengthy sections on either side of Waterloo, WI out of the swamps/marshes and replace them with bridging.
It was *NOT* to be a European/Asian style 'true' high speed service, rather only an 'enhanced-speed' restored conventional service. The full Chicago-MStP route would have been uncompetitive with airlines between the cities.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on August 31, 2016, 10:23:26 AM
It was *NOT* to be a European/Asian style 'true' high speed service, rather only an 'enhanced-speed' restored conventional service. The full Chicago-MStP route would have been uncompetitive with airlines between the cities.
Mike
I've never understood these High Speed Rail people thinking the US is Japan or France. They take the seating stats of Chicago to Minneapolis flights to try to justify it not realizing most of these passengers are connecting on to other flights to places far, far away like California, Orlando, or Tokyo and are not final destination traffic between the two cities. No one would want to replace an hour connecting flight straight between two airport terminals with a half day train journey involving taxis between downtown train stations and airports, then check in and go through security.
I think you're underestimating the number of people that would simply travel between MSP and Chicago or points in between.
Quote from: captkirk_4 on September 02, 2016, 09:07:23 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 31, 2016, 10:23:26 AM
It was *NOT* to be a European/Asian style 'true' high speed service, rather only an 'enhanced-speed' restored conventional service. The full Chicago-MStP route would have been uncompetitive with airlines between the cities.
Mike
I've never understood these High Speed Rail people thinking the US is Japan or France. They take the seating stats of Chicago to Minneapolis flights to try to justify it not realizing most of these passengers are connecting on to other flights to places far, far away like California, Orlando, or Tokyo and are not final destination traffic between the two cities. No one would want to replace an hour connecting flight straight between two airport terminals with a half day train journey involving taxis between downtown train stations and airports, then check in and go through security.
That, and the fact that many of these folks would still need to drive anyway to get to their final destinations after being dropped off at the train station. They don't magically get from the train station to their town somewhere well off the rails or between stations.
Quote from: froggie on September 02, 2016, 09:21:18 AM
I think you're underestimating the number of people that would simply travel between MSP and Chicago or points in between.
I don't think he is.
Quote from: BrandonThat, and the fact that many of these folks would still need to drive anyway to get to their final destinations after being dropped off at the train station.
Unless their final destination is in town. The problem with suburban-style development is that it's spread destinations around...almost too much. End result is a much higher VMT level (and, conversely, traffic) than had development been more dense closer in.
Quote from: BrandonQuote from: froggieI think you're underestimating the number of people that would simply travel between MSP and Chicago or points in between.
I don't think he is.
Have you ridden it or looked at the ridership numbers? Most travel on the Empire Builder is only a few to a half-dozen stops. Not a lot of people are riding much longer distances unless they're doing it deliberately for the leisure.
Even looking at a slightly longer distance...plenty of people who travel between MSP and Chicago without going further.