I don't know the technical terms so bear with me but I've always wondered this.
Why is it that on asphalt roads they (sometimes) stripe with a very thick paint that is very durable but on concrete roads they never use this and only use what appears to be spray paint that doesn't last nearly as long? I find it hard to believe the thicker paint can't adhere to concrete properly.
Different states have different standards for the materials used in their pavement markings, so there is no one-size fits all answer.
Furthermore, in some locations, it's not actually paint but instead is a plastic stripe that's applied at a very high temperature (thermoplast is one term used for it).
Another thing to consider is climate. Thicker forms of striping tend to get destroyed by snowplows.
Quote from: froggie on October 30, 2016, 02:50:09 PM
Furthermore, in some locations, it's not actually paint but instead is a plastic stripe that's applied at a very high temperature (thermoplast is one term used for it).
Another thing to consider is climate. Thicker forms of striping tend to get destroyed by snowplows.
Even paint gets scraped off by snowplows... Florida has always had good sripinf and even reflectors since i have been alive
LGMS428
Quote from: brad on October 30, 2016, 08:42:45 AMWhy is it that on asphalt roads they (sometimes) stripe with a very thick paint that is very durable but on concrete roads they never use this and only use what appears to be spray paint that doesn't last nearly as long? I find it hard to believe the thicker paint can't adhere to concrete properly.
This is kind of hard to answer without examples that are specific as to road and location. In Kansas, thermoplastic is used on both asphalt and concrete because it has the best value-for-money ratio. There are striping materials that offer better retroreflectivity but they are much more expensive. One of these is patterned cold plastic (typically with a fine dot pattern pressed into the upside), which in Kansas is usually reserved for locations where high visibility is desirable, such as ramp diverges.
Any idea what kind of markings these are? WSDOT's Olympic Region uses them a lot (other regions as well, but mostly just the white stripes). They appear to be thermoplastic, with botts dots on top. But I'm not sure, because the dots are square.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FiDCq4jA.png&hash=f580f0bd8129d37f60a37b356c663d2868618f0f)
Those are raised-rib pavement markings. The ribs are not actually Botts dots, though I believe they are preformed and are covered with thermoplastic once they are secured to the road surface. Raised-rib pavement markings are used extensively in areas that see little to no snow in the winter, but lots of moisture otherwise, since the priority then becomes to ensure adequate visibility when there is water on the road or fog, mist, or murk in the air. They are used extensively on British motorways (lots of murk, rear red foglamps also required) and on freeways in the San Francisco Bay Area (lots of fog).
I can only say that it isn't (ok, shouldn't) be ordinary spray paint. Its a very strong paint that should last a few years.
Quote from: jwolfer on October 30, 2016, 08:28:30 PM
Quote from: froggie on October 30, 2016, 02:50:09 PM
Furthermore, in some locations, it's not actually paint but instead is a plastic stripe that's applied at a very high temperature (thermoplast is one term used for it).
Another thing to consider is climate. Thicker forms of striping tend to get destroyed by snowplows.
Even paint gets scraped off by snowplows... Florida has always had good sripinf and even reflectors since i have been alive
LGMS428
Numerous people say this, and I'm still waiting for evidence. I can't recall anyone showing any indication that paint and thermoplastic is redone every year anywhere. NJ generally used a 3 year cycle to restripe their roads, for example.
We would be seeing pictures of overspraying, or pictures of line-less roads in the spring from the winter plowing. We would have numerous accidents, complaints of missing stop lines and crosswalks. No one ever has shown a pic of this.
So let's stop saying the plows are plowing off the lines. They're not.
Erie County, NY often repaints some locations in consecutive years if not every year. Yes, roads in Upstate New York often have very faint lines in the spring. Plows would be a logical explanation, even if it takes 2 years to repaint (NYSDOT Region 5, for example, uses a 2 year cycle).
In Ontario, paint is generally done every year.
Thermoplastic often lasts a few years, but that can depend, sometimes it only gets through one winter before it is damaged by plows and needs to be redone (typically with conventional paint).
Like with anything, sometimes the longevity of any kind of lane marking, whether it be paint or thermoplastic, can depend upon both the weather conditions, and pavement surface of the road it is applied on. For example, different lane marking applications will wear differently on concrete roads, vs. asphalt, and can be affected by the water content in pavement voids after a rainfall as well.
But make no mistake, at least to some degree, plows do damage lane markings.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 31, 2016, 12:19:47 PM
We would be seeing pictures of overspraying, or pictures of line-less roads in the spring from the winter plowing. We would have numerous accidents, complaints of missing stop lines and crosswalks. No one ever has shown a pic of this.
So let's stop saying the plows are plowing off the lines. They're not.
Actually, they do. Get out of New Jersey once in a while and visit the Midwest.
The loss of paint here is due to plow scraping: https://goo.gl/maps/ctoWojiUmbu
Same here: https://goo.gl/maps/hiQ2XdkD5sC2 as incidentally are any missing reflectors.
Paint's a bit thin here from repeated winter plowing: https://goo.gl/maps/aB4SpJQfygJ2
Starting to crack from age and plowing: https://goo.gl/maps/mgMfGDznM3S2
There's a boatload of plow-damaged paint in Upstate New York. Here's one I could think of quickly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7597102,-73.7532796,3a,23.9y,90.16h,83.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNOentl0NyKl6wzZywzTZOw!2e0!5s20160801T000000!7i13312!8i6656) near Albany.
And as far as the crosswalks, a huge reason why New York switched to red paint and stamped asphalt is to ensure they're visible with the plows scraping stuff up. If arrows are done in thermoplast, those are done every year or two as well. Plows scraping crap up is the main reason why NYSTA started placing lines in milled troughs that don't get hit by plows.
Quote from: cl94 on October 31, 2016, 01:17:27 PM
There's a boatload of plow-damaged paint in Upstate New York. Here's one I could think of quickly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7597102,-73.7532796,3a,23.9y,90.16h,83.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNOentl0NyKl6wzZywzTZOw!2e0!5s20160801T000000!7i13312!8i6656) near Albany.
And as far as the crosswalks, a huge reason why New York switched to red paint and stamped asphalt is to ensure they're visible with the plows scraping stuff up. If arrows are done in thermoplast, those are done every year or two as well. Plows scraping crap up is the main reason why NYSTA started placing lines in milled troughs that don't get hit by plows.
ISTHA has been doing the same thing (https://goo.gl/maps/QtQpb2gTtFp) so that the plows don't scrape up the lane markings.
Massachusetts, Michigan, Vermont and the occasional NYSDOT project do it as well. Vermont in particular throws thermoplast in there. Has been lasting much longer than even paint in troughs. At least with the NYSTA projects, the original installations that went in 5 years ago are weathering much better than normal surface paint after 1 year.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 31, 2016, 12:19:47 PM
We would be seeing pictures of overspraying, or pictures of line-less roads in the spring from the winter plowing. We would have numerous accidents, complaints of missing stop lines and crosswalks. No one ever has shown a pic of this.
So let's stop saying the plows are plowing off the lines. They're not.
The thermoplastic on these roads had been applied the fall before these photos were taken as part of a resurfacing project. As you can see, the damage over the winter was extensive.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FON%2FOntroads%2Fthermoplastic1.jpg&hash=0cf3128c7394f718bbc7a5eb8d4008b1a349e6bd)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.asphaltplanet.ca%2FON%2FOntroads%2Fthermoplastic2.jpg&hash=d9a5083ccffb4b239746953cbef294fe4161d403)
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2016, 01:09:26 PM
Of course, you're the same person who told me that people use cash instead of EZ Pass when possible, which is a bunch of baloney.
That I know I didn't say. There are certainly people that use cash rather than EZ Pass though, which is why EZ Pass usage isn't 100%.
Everything else I'll check out later.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 31, 2016, 06:32:36 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2016, 01:09:26 PM
Of course, you're the same person who told me that people use cash instead of EZ Pass when possible, which is a bunch of baloney.
That I know I didn't say. There are certainly people that use cash rather than EZ Pass though, which is why EZ Pass usage isn't 100%.
Everything else I'll check out later.
My apologies, it has been removed from the comment. I think that was someone else in the same thread.
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2016, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 31, 2016, 12:19:47 PM
We would be seeing pictures of overspraying, or pictures of line-less roads in the spring from the winter plowing. We would have numerous accidents, complaints of missing stop lines and crosswalks. No one ever has shown a pic of this.
So let's stop saying the plows are plowing off the lines. They're not.
Actually, they do. Get out of New Jersey once in a while and visit the Midwest.
Now that I have a little time, I can look at these a little further...
QuoteThe loss of paint here is due to plow scraping: https://goo.gl/maps/ctoWojiUmbu
Combined with the fact that the paint is about 5 years old... https://goo.gl/maps/uxGGUbugwdF2
QuoteSame here: https://goo.gl/maps/hiQ2XdkD5sC2 as incidentally are any missing reflectors.
Same here...best I can tell the paint is at least 9 years old... https://goo.gl/maps/Cacb2qeB4uH2
QuotePaint's a bit thin here from repeated winter plowing: https://goo.gl/maps/aB4SpJQfygJ2
It looks like this one here got a fresh coat of paint sometime between Oct '12 ( https://goo.gl/maps/WwJcg6WvZ7S2 ) and June of '14 ( https://goo.gl/maps/iVGfLW5eCoN2 ). Prior to that, it appears the road may have been relined between Sept '07 & Oct '08.
QuoteStarting to crack from age and plowing: https://goo.gl/maps/mgMfGDznM3S2
In similar fashion, it appears the road was restriped sometimes between Oct '11 ( https://goo.gl/maps/EgH2BSVss1z ) and May '14 (https://goo.gl/maps/kSgXnLRhogv )
Quote from: cl94 on October 31, 2016, 01:17:27 PM
There's a boatload of plow-damaged paint in Upstate New York. Here's one I could think of quickly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7597102,-73.7532796,3a,23.9y,90.16h,83.4t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNOentl0NyKl6wzZywzTZOw!2e0!5s20160801T000000!7i13312!8i6656) near Albany.
There appears to be very little change from the winter of 2014-15 ( https://goo.gl/maps/Ca35qWeAqbu ) & 2015-16 ( https://goo.gl/maps/ppsbtQAeYxN2 ). It was a light year in terms of snowfall though. The previous few years you had 70+ inches of snow up there. But, it's clear it wasn't painted after last year's snow.
It's hard to tell with the King Street photos as I don't know where they were taken, and can't look back to see the history there and nearby as well.
In the example near Albany, it appears they are running new paint every 3 years or so. In the Illinois examples...it appears they are going at least 5 years (way too long). And in the case of the painted 'Only' and the arrow in the road, I can trace that one painting back nearly 9 years! Of course it's going to start wearing off after that time. If anything, it takes a beating from tens of thousands of vehicles every day, not to mention numerous plowings every winter, and 9 years later still be readable.
But, suffice to say, of the examples shown to me, the painting isn't getting redone every year. And clearly the lines aren't getting scrapped off the road. Other than a little paint missing here and there, especially after several years, we can all clearly see the striping.
The 2015-16 winter is off because it was a record-setting year in terms of least snowfall in a season. We've already gotten more snow this year than we did last year before April.
We never said every year in every jurisdiction. But if it's not done every 2 years max, you can't see the lines. And given that putting paint in grooves significantly lengthens the life (and it still gets contacted by tires), the best logical explanation is that it gets scraped off by the plows.
The King Street photos were taken on Hwy 85 in Waterloo, ON
They were taken during the spring of 2015, and the lines (and asphalt) had been applied during the fall of 2014.
The damage to the road paint was due to snow removal equipment during the eight months that existed between the time the lane lines were laid down, and the time the photographs were taken.
PennDOT, at least in SE PA, repaints every year on state roads with regular road paint. I don't think they paint over top of thermoplast if it's not worn, though.
Rochester NY repaints it's lines every year as well. The lines are quite faded every spring. Now...if that is because of plow scraping, or road salt, or that the city is using a lesser-quality paint than NYS DOT does, is another question...but the city does repaint every year.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on November 07, 2016, 03:58:40 PM
The King Street photos were taken on Hwy 85 in Waterloo, ON
They were taken during the spring of 2015, and the lines (and asphalt) had been applied during the fall of 2014.
The damage to the road paint was due to snow removal equipment during the eight months that existed between the time the lane lines were laid down, and the time the photographs were taken.
We've tried, in other thread to tell him this, but he doesn't seem to want to believe us. I guess the plows are softer on the roads in South Jersey.
Quote from: jemacedo9 on November 07, 2016, 04:17:36 PM
Rochester NY repaints it's lines every year as well. The lines are quite faded every spring. Now...if that is because of plow scraping, or road salt, or that the city is using a lesser-quality paint than NYS DOT does, is another question...but the city does repaint every year.
I guess Rochester had a very snowy summer here then, as this is from November, 2015... https://goo.gl/maps/xe8CYVsVLRE2 . I will give you that the lines are very faded compared to October, 2014. https://goo.gl/maps/VcXRaTJur5D2
Quote from: cl94 on November 07, 2016, 03:13:30 PM
We never said every year in every jurisdiction.
Actually, yes, numerous people have said every year. Even where people have said every year, I have shown in the very examples provided that it's not every year...or even every two years.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on November 07, 2016, 03:58:40 PM
The King Street photos were taken on Hwy 85 in Waterloo, ON
They were taken during the spring of 2015, and the lines (and asphalt) had been applied during the fall of 2014.
The damage to the road paint was due to snow removal equipment during the eight months that existed between the time the lane lines were laid down, and the time the photographs were taken.
Using this GSV from August, 2015, I can see they were repainted. https://goo.gl/maps/Zdr398ZKzWP2 But I gotta wonder about the contractor used. Going back and forth, there's a lot of cracks in the road. Not good for a newly paved road!
Quote from: Brandon on November 07, 2016, 04:48:28 PM
We've tried, in other thread to tell him this, but he doesn't seem to want to believe us. I guess the plows are softer on the roads in South Jersey.
Dude...your examples were the easiest to defute. Of course I don't believe you!!!
2014 was a tough winter in Ontario as it was in many places in the northeast.
The cracks are reflexive cracking from a deteriorated roadbase. Doesn't have any bearing on the thermoplastic that was used.
Remind me to take some pictures of places in eastern Kentucky where the paint gets scraped off the pavement this winter. It happens.
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on November 07, 2016, 06:19:00 PM
2014 was a tough winter in Ontario as it was in many places in the northeast.
The cracks are reflexive cracking from a deteriorated roadbase. Doesn't have any bearing on the thermoplastic that was used.
You said this was new asphalt. How could the roadbase have deteriorated this rapidly less than a year after it was repaved?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 08, 2016, 10:14:48 PM
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on November 07, 2016, 06:19:00 PM
2014 was a tough winter in Ontario as it was in many places in the northeast.
The cracks are reflexive cracking from a deteriorated roadbase. Doesn't have any bearing on the thermoplastic that was used.
You said this was new asphalt. How could the roadbase have deteriorated this rapidly less than a year after it was repaved?
An overlay or "mill and fill" does nothing to repair the base.
Quote from: hbelkins on November 09, 2016, 11:51:06 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 08, 2016, 10:14:48 PM
Quote from: AsphaltPlanet on November 07, 2016, 06:19:00 PM
2014 was a tough winter in Ontario as it was in many places in the northeast.
The cracks are reflexive cracking from a deteriorated roadbase. Doesn't have any bearing on the thermoplastic that was used.
You said this was new asphalt. How could the roadbase have deteriorated this rapidly less than a year after it was repaved?
An overlay or "mill and fill" does nothing to repair the base.
Correct. A mill and fill is putting lipstick on a pig if the base is in bad shape. Erie County, NY does overlays and mill/fills over bad roadbases all of the time and it doesn't last long.
Heck, look at what NYSDOT did to Sweet Home Road near the UB campus. They threw a single-course overlay over this concrete (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9987559,-78.7988045,3a,75y,20.64h,78.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-53CgZ8TjjaDjlVATIkLZw!2e0!5s20110701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) in 2012. It didn't even last through the winter. Compare this to 2015 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9986932,-78.7988212,3a,75y,20.64h,78.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWW2P7irN7bLPEhwNSiZm2w!2e0!5s20150901T000000!7i13312!8i6656). Region 5 is finally doing a top-down reconstruction there.
West Virginia Division of Highways restripes surface roads, which get regular paint, every year. Plows heavily damage the paint each year, especially in the mountain counties. Try driving US 33 east of Elkins during March and you'll find there's no pavement markings left on the mountain crossings.
According to a WSDOT blog post (https://goo.gl/1kvsp0) from last November,
- We are still looking for cost-effective solutions to make lane markings last longer and easier to see on Snoqualmie Pass. Until then, we will reapply paint at least twice a year and when needed as conditions allow.
- We have tried many alternative striping products that are very expensive and or time consuming to apply. If we find something new, we are willing to test it, but we have not found a product durable enough to withstand the traffic and snow removal equipment. The most durable products lose reflectivity very quickly providing limited guidance in the dark, and especially when wet.
- We've tried other ways to make the lane markings visible on I-90. We installed Raised Recessed Pavement Markers (RRPM's) on I-90 from North Bend to Cle Elum. The markers sit in slots below the level of the pavement to protect them from studded tires, chains and snow removal equipment, but are less visible when the slots fill with rain or snow.
- We installed more than 4,600 LED pavement markers in a seven mile section of I-90 near the summit in both directions. It's a test to see if these markers help drivers at night and in inclement weather, and if they can withstand the punishing conditions on Snoqualmie Pass. Since they are solar powered, grey days sometimes prevent the lights from shining all night.
Just as a comparison, here's a GIF that I made, showing some of the markings after a winter season, versus before a winter season. As you can see from the blog post above, WSDOT repaints their markings along Snoqualmie Pass at least once a year (thus, the snowy scene is the result of only 5-6 months plowing):
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbjTHvOI.gif&hash=56e4d5524f171e54f632066058ba9e65d607dbf0)
Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2016, 11:41:09 AM
According to a WSDOT blog post (https://goo.gl/1kvsp0) from last November,
- We are still looking for cost-effective solutions to make lane markings last longer and easier to see on Snoqualmie Pass. Until then, we will reapply paint at least twice a year and when needed as conditions allow.
- We have tried many alternative striping products that are very expensive and or time consuming to apply. If we find something new, we are willing to test it, but we have not found a product durable enough to withstand the traffic and snow removal equipment. The most durable products lose reflectivity very quickly providing limited guidance in the dark, and especially when wet.
- We’ve tried other ways to make the lane markings visible on I-90. We installed Raised Recessed Pavement Markers (RRPM's) on I-90 from North Bend to Cle Elum. The markers sit in slots below the level of the pavement to protect them from studded tires, chains and snow removal equipment, but are less visible when the slots fill with rain or snow.
- We installed more than 4,600 LED pavement markers in a seven mile section of I-90 near the summit in both directions. It’s a test to see if these markers help drivers at night and in inclement weather, and if they can withstand the punishing conditions on Snoqualmie Pass. Since they are solar powered, grey days sometimes prevent the lights from shining all night.
Just as a comparison, here's a GIF that I made, showing some of the markings after a winter season, versus before a winter season. As you can see from the blog post above, WSDOT repaints their markings along Snoqualmie Pass at least once a year (thus, the snowy scene is the result of only 5-6 months plowing):
I appreciate that. Surprised they haven't found something that'll work up there. Then again, 5 or 6 months of nearly constant plowing is considerable...and much more than is typically requiring in most other areas of the country.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2016, 01:03:58 PM
I appreciate that. Surprised they haven't found something that'll work up there. Then again, 5 or 6 months of nearly constant plowing is considerable...and much more than is typically requiring in most other areas of the country.
The one constantly effective thing (IMO) is the grooves in the concrete. As long as you stay between your grooves, you're probably good. :-D
You are correct, though, that that more plowing occurs up in Snoqualmie Pass than most areas of the US. I can only assume, then, that once WSDOT finds a solution to the issue, other jurisdictions in the US may adopt it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2016, 01:03:58 PM
I appreciate that. Surprised they haven't found something that'll work up there. Then again, 5 or 6 months of nearly constant plowing is considerable...and much more than is typically requiring in most other areas of the country.
Stuff like that is why Erie County paints every year. Even then, markings are typically gone at the end of the winter in the region that gets 120+ inches/year. As far as other options, Erie County has no money, so...
Quote from: cl94 on November 10, 2016, 01:23:10 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2016, 01:03:58 PM
I appreciate that. Surprised they haven't found something that'll work up there. Then again, 5 or 6 months of nearly constant plowing is considerable...and much more than is typically requiring in most other areas of the country.
Stuff like that is why Erie County paints every year. Even then, markings are typically gone at the end of the winter in the region that gets 120+ inches/year. As far as other options, Erie County has no money, so...
Erie County really needs to step up its game. Snoqualmie Pass receives (an average of) 430 inches/year (http://www.wsdot.com/winter/files/HistoricalSnowfallData2015-16Season.pdf?v=40), and you can still make out some of the white markings.
:bigass:
Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2016, 01:36:16 PM
Quote from: cl94 on November 10, 2016, 01:23:10 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2016, 01:03:58 PM
I appreciate that. Surprised they haven't found something that'll work up there. Then again, 5 or 6 months of nearly constant plowing is considerable...and much more than is typically requiring in most other areas of the country.
Stuff like that is why Erie County paints every year. Even then, markings are typically gone at the end of the winter in the region that gets 120+ inches/year. As far as other options, Erie County has no money, so...
Erie County really needs to step up its game. Snoqualmie Pass receives (an average of) 430 inches/year (http://www.wsdot.com/winter/files/HistoricalSnowfallData2015-16Season.pdf?v=40), and you can still make out some of the white markings.
:bigass:
I think they use the cheapest stuff available. They can't afford anything thanks to the patronage positions they have to support.
Is it my imagination, or has NYSDOT in recent years changed the way it paints newly-paved roads?
Now, right after the new blacktop is laid, they only paint basic lines that are "good enough" for the short term. The lines might be an inch narrower, there might be occasional short gaps, and the "fancier" bits (arrows, diagonal crosshatching, and the curves and rounded ends of painted medians) are omitted. A month or two later they come back to paint everything again in the finished, high-quality style.
It seems that, until a few years ago, they used to do the final striping right after the new pavement went down.
The new way makes more sense. Fresh blacktop is covered with a thin film of asphalt, which is why it looks so black. But that film is not durable, and after a few weeks it starts to wear and weather away, and the road turns gray as you see the crushed stone. Any paint that you put on fresh blacktop will be adhering to that film of asphalt, so it will wear away quickly. By waiting to apply the finished stripes, they seem to last a lot longer.