[Split from the "things that irk you about roads" thread. -S.]
People who stick stubbornly to bogus roadgeek definitions such as Super 2 meaning a two-lane freeway. croissants.
Relevant reply to this post, as part of a post that mostly belongs in the other thread:
Quote from: stridentweasel on December 23, 2016, 12:31:58 AM
My understanding was that "Super 2" meant a two-lane, undivided road that had all the other characteristics of a freeway (full grade separation) but couldn't be called a freeway because a freeway is divided by definition. And I thought "Super 2 Expressway" referred to a two-lane, undivided road that had grade separations and interchanges as well as some at-grade intersections. Of course, if you use the standard definitions of "freeway," "expressway," and "conventional road," both Super 2s and Super 2 Expressways fall into the "conventional road" category.
While we're at it, I get annoyed when people stubbornly think an expressway cannot have driveways or private road access points, even though that isn't a universally accepted part of the definition of "expressway." The road categories should refer to physical characteristics, not legal ones.
Quote from: NE2 on December 22, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
People who stick stubbornly to bogus roadgeek definitions such as Super 2 meaning a two-lane freeway. croissants.
But a Super-2 is a two-lane freeway.
Quote from: Rothman on December 22, 2016, 06:01:11 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 22, 2016, 03:48:23 PM
People who stick stubbornly to bogus roadgeek definitions such as Super 2 meaning a two-lane freeway. croissants.
But a Super-2 is a two-lane freeway.
Indeed. Any road with controlled access, by means of dividing the carriageways, and providing under- or over-passes at crossings, is a freeway. Super-2s are pretty lame freeways. But they are freeways regardless.
A Super 2, as used by non-roadgeeks, is a high-speed two-lane road with frequent passing lanes.
http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/rdw/super_2_highways.htm
http://www.roads.nebraska.gov/media/4678/super-2-fact-sheet.pdf
http://www.michigan.gov/documents/MDOT_M15_N1_chap3_128300_7.pdf
Regarding "super-2," I can't say I ever recall hearing any non-roadgeek ever using that term. If I said it, most people I know would probably think I said "Super Tuesday" (living in the DC area no doubt has an effect there!).
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 23, 2016, 07:45:02 AMRegarding "super-2," I can't say I ever recall hearing any non-roadgeek ever using that term. If I said it, most people I know would probably think I said "Super Tuesday" (living in the DC area no doubt has an effect there!).
My father--who is not a roadgeek by any means--has used the term Super Two, as defined by state DOT engineers in the official documentation NE2 has cited (i.e., wide cross section with full shoulders and enhanced provision of passing lanes, not necessarily comprehensive grade separation or access control). I suspect media consumers in Kansas have more awareness of the term because upgrades to Super Two have been major modernization/expansion elements in the decadelong highway programs that have been pursued since 1990. States neighboring Kansas are starting to catch up by stepping up investment in their two-lane systems, which is probably part of the reason one of the Super Two links NE2 found goes to a Nebraska DOR flyer with Build Nebraska Act branding.
Super Two upgrades are holistic and typically involve some elements not just of passing lane construction and shoulder widening, but also relocation as needed to secure geometric improvements and partial (usually not full) control of access. The goal is to secure a higher level of traffic operations and modestly increase capacity.
The American roadgeek community would probably be better off adopting the term
semi-freeway for highly improved two-lane roads that have comprehensive grade separation with full control of access, rather than restricting
Super Two exclusively to roads of this type. Roadgeek terms that actively conflict with official state DOT usage are worse than informalisms like
big green sign.
Semi-freeway is nicely analogous with the term
semi-motorway used in British English to refer to the European equivalent, which is usually (not always) signed with the "happy car" sign.
Quote from: stridentweasel on December 23, 2016, 12:31:58 AMMy understanding was that "Super 2" meant a two-lane, undivided road that had all the other characteristics of a freeway (full grade separation) but couldn't be called a freeway because a freeway is divided by definition.
This is the roadgeek usage that conflicts with state DOT roadway design manual definitions.
Semi-freeway avoids the whole question of whether
freeway always implies divided construction with a sterile median (I am not sure the AASHTO definition does, but the
MUTCD one definitely does).
Quote from: stridentweasel on December 23, 2016, 12:31:58 AMAnd I thought "Super 2 Expressway" referred to a two-lane, undivided road that had grade separations and interchanges as well as some at-grade intersections. Of course, if you use the standard definitions of "freeway," "expressway," and "conventional road," both Super 2s and Super 2 Expressways fall into the "conventional road" category.
I am not sure I have ever seen the term
Super Two expressway. However,
two-lane expressway is the Caltrans term for Super Two.
Quote from: stridentweasel on December 23, 2016, 12:31:58 AMWhile we're at it, I get annoyed when people stubbornly think an expressway cannot have driveways or private road access points, even though that isn't a universally accepted part of the definition of "expressway." The road categories should refer to physical characteristics, not legal ones.
Everyone uses roads, so everyone has an opinion, and we never escape the noob syndrome, which includes a tendency to universalize regionalisms--"the the the the" for route numbers, "expressway" for urban freeways, etc.
Re: Super-2
I do occasionally use the term "Super-2" casually in the roadgeek sense, but I do so knowing full well that it's not actually what the term means. Because of this inconsistency, more and more I've been calling two-lane freeways "two-lane freeways." Seems pretty simple.
For those of you who had no idea till this thread that "Super-2" meant something else officially... What did you think a "Super-4" was?
To me, THE defining characteristic of a Super 2 is that it is what Kentucky calls a limited-access road -- that is, a road that only has intersections at grade-separated interchanges. It doesn't necessarily need truck climbing or passing lanes, but it must have-grade separated intersections. A road ceases to be a Super 2 if it has at-grade intersections.
For instance, I do not consider the Mountain Parkway a Super 2 anymore because an at-grade intersection was installed at KY 134 in Magoffin County.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 23, 2016, 05:45:36 PM
To me, THE defining characteristic of a Super 2 is that it is what Kentucky calls a limited-access road -- that is, a road that only has intersections at grade-separated interchanges. It doesn't necessarily need truck climbing or passing lanes, but it must have-grade separated intersections. A road ceases to be a Super 2 if it has at-grade intersections.
For instance, I do not consider the Mountain Parkway a Super 2 anymore because an at-grade intersection was installed at KY 134 in Magoffin County.
That's the roadgeek definition. It is not how DOTs define the term. And roadgeeks going by a definition other than that of the DOTs is precisely what irks
NE2 about roads the most. (well, actually, I doubt it)
Maybe the DOTs should have looked to see that the term they wanted to coin was not already in use. Personally, though, I don't see why these DOTs need to have a special term for what can be summed up as "modern roadway standards".
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:34:00 PM
For those of you who had no idea till this thread that "Super-2" meant something else officially... What did you think a "Super-4" was?
I thought a Super 4 was a four-lane,
undivided freeway or expressway.
Quote from: vdeane on December 23, 2016, 10:21:03 PMMaybe the DOTs should have looked to see that the term they wanted to coin was not already in use. Personally, though, I don't see why these DOTs need to have a special term for what can be summed up as "modern roadway standards".
The DOT definition came first. I remember being told about Super Twos in the mid-nineties, before MTR was set up.
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:34:00 PMFor those of you who had no idea till this thread that "Super-2" meant something else officially... What did you think a "Super-4" was?
A logical four-lane extension of the Super Two as defined by roadgeeks would be a freeway with two lanes in both the up and down direction, but no median. I distinctly recall that a facility of this type used to exist in western Washington somewhere along the segments of US 12 and SR 8 that allow US 101 traffic to short-cut to the end of the route without going all the way round the Olympic Peninsula. However, I cannot find it in satellite imagery, so I suspect it has been reconstructed out of existence.
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:29:26 PMI agree that R3-7 is not the best, and R3-8 is better. But still, both of those are actually regulatory, whereas W4-2 is not.
I agree the preferred solution for trap lanes at intersections is regulatory, not warning. Here's an example of the solution using R3-5:
R3-5 with "Right Lane" supplementary plate for right turn lane along Houghton Road in Tucson, Arizona (recent StreetView) (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.1904496,-110.7727621,3a,75y,164.18h,89.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sew3tOmQGgx2sX9VOZMV5Xg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
R3-5, same location, without supplementary plate (2011 StreetView) (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.1904586,-110.7726553,3a,75y,17.2h,80.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLFkV79jRyMbg4ESdwZfymg!2e0!5s20110301T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:29:26 PMI've seen this done extensively in Texas, and I like it (as I like a lot of things Texas does with its highways).
You like poor-boys (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Johnson+City,+TX+78636/@30.2538298,-98.5108838,3a,75y,273.86h,93.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D349.56097%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x865b0b44670ca89f:0x313316545ac7e793!8m2!3d30.2767408!4d-98.4119811)?
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 11:00:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:29:26 PMI've seen this done extensively in Texas, and I like it (as I like a lot of things Texas does with its highways).
You like poor-boys (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Johnson+City,+TX+78636/@30.2538298,-98.5108838,3a,75y,273.86h,93.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D349.56097%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x865b0b44670ca89f:0x313316545ac7e793!8m2!3d30.2767408!4d-98.4119811)?
That is horrible.. Straight out of 1955
LGMS428
Quote from: jwolfer on December 23, 2016, 11:30:25 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 11:00:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:29:26 PMI've seen this done extensively in Texas, and I like it (as I like a lot of things Texas does with its highways).
You like poor-boys (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Johnson+City,+TX+78636/@30.2538298,-98.5108838,3a,75y,273.86h,93.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D349.56097%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x865b0b44670ca89f:0x313316545ac7e793!8m2!3d30.2767408!4d-98.4119811)?
That is horrible.. Straight out of 1955
LGMS428
It is even worse to drive on than it looks. TxDOT apparently specifies (or used to specify) a higher crossfall for shoulders than for the traveled way, and many of these poor-boys were built simply by restriping and building out shoulders where necessary, without revising the crossfall. Keeping right except to pass (as every civilized person should do) entails steering actively against the crossfall and is therefore very wearing on the car and tiring for the driver.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 11:47:55 PM
Quote from: jwolfer on December 23, 2016, 11:30:25 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 11:00:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:29:26 PMI've seen this done extensively in Texas, and I like it (as I like a lot of things Texas does with its highways).
You like poor-boys (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Johnson+City,+TX+78636/@30.2538298,-98.5108838,3a,75y,273.86h,93.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D349.56097%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x865b0b44670ca89f:0x313316545ac7e793!8m2!3d30.2767408!4d-98.4119811)?
That is horrible.. Straight out of 1955
LGMS428
It is even worse to drive on than it looks. TxDOT apparently specifies (or used to specify) a higher crossfall for shoulders than for the traveled way, and many of these poor-boys were built simply by restriping and building out shoulders where necessary, without revising the crossfall. Keeping right except to pass (as every civilized person should do) entails steering actively against the crossfall and is therefore very wearing on the car and tiring for the driver.
And Texas builds 5 stacks etc.. You would think with available land in rural areas you would see. At least a full center turn lane like GA or NC
What annoying is that road looks the same in Rand McNally as US 301 on Eastern Shore of Maryland
LGMS428
Quote from: hbelkins on December 23, 2016, 05:45:36 PM
To me, THE defining characteristic of a Super 2 is that it is what Kentucky calls a limited-access road -- that is, a road that only has intersections at grade-separated interchanges. It doesn't necessarily need truck climbing or passing lanes, but it must have-grade separated intersections. A road ceases to be a Super 2 if it has at-grade intersections.
For instance, I do not consider the Mountain Parkway a Super 2 anymore because an at-grade intersection was installed at KY 134 in Magoffin County.
Another good poster child for a Super 2 is part of US 6 on Cape Cod.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 11:00:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:29:26 PMI've seen this done extensively in Texas, and I like it (as I like a lot of things Texas does with its highways).
You like poor-boys (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Johnson+City,+TX+78636/@30.2538298,-98.5108838,3a,75y,273.86h,93.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqfmO_9SgT6FWquNl3SvtoQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D349.56097%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x865b0b44670ca89f:0x313316545ac7e793!8m2!3d30.2767408!4d-98.4119811)?
In any other state, most of those poor-boys would still be two lanes. So, in that sense, yes I do like them. My now-preferred route to México includes a handful of poor-boy segments, the busiest of which is US-277 between Wichita Falls and Holliday. With much lower traffic volumes, US-277 between Sonora and Del Rio has several of its passing lanes mirrored, such that there is a poor-boy setup for a few miles at a time; most of those passing lanes are probably overkill, but a full-blown median would definitely be overkill.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 23, 2016, 10:58:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 23, 2016, 04:34:00 PMFor those of you who had no idea till this thread that "Super-2" meant something else officially... What did you think a "Super-4" was?
A logical four-lane extension of the Super Two as defined by roadgeeks would be a freeway with two lanes in both the up and down direction, but no median. I distinctly recall that a facility of this type used to exist in western Washington somewhere along the segments of US 12 and SR 8 that allow US 101 traffic to short-cut to the end of the route without going all the way round the Olympic Peninsula. However, I cannot find it in satellite imagery, so I suspect it has been reconstructed out of existence.
A Super-4 is a divided highway built to modern standards, with at-grade intersections but limited access where necessary–such that it can be driven at higher speeds without it being a freeway. I'm really struggling to find this definition spelled out online, but I specifically recall the term being applied to the upgrade of IL-13 between Marion and Harrisburg (which is signed at 65 mph rather than 55 mph). As a Super-4 is not a freeway, then it stands to reason a Super-2 is not a freeway either.
What's the difference between a standard two lane highway with passing lanes, and a Super-2?
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 11:48:34 AM
What's the difference between a standard two lane highway with passing lanes, and a Super-2?
There's more to Super-2 standards than just passing lanes:
- A good deal of limited access, even though not fully controlled access (most evident near towns)
- Tight curves straightened out
- Grade separation at major junctions
- Wide shoulders
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 11:48:34 AMWhat's the difference between a standard two lane highway with passing lanes, and a Super-2?
None really, except that Super Two implies full shoulders with geometry, roadside development, and access control to generally higher standards.
Quote from: kphoger on December 24, 2016, 10:41:44 AMIn any other state, most of those poor-boys would still be two lanes. So, in that sense, yes I do like them. My now-preferred route to México includes a handful of poor-boy segments, the busiest of which is US-277 between Wichita Falls and Holliday. With much lower traffic volumes, US-277 between Sonora and Del Rio has several of its passing lanes mirrored, such that there is a poor-boy setup for a few miles at a time; most of those passing lanes are probably overkill, but a full-blown median would definitely be overkill.
It is usually possible to find a state that is more scrofulous than the one under discussion, but I would contend that the poor-boys are a sign the rural off-Interstate primary network in Texas is seriously starved of investment. Another symptom is that it is chip-sealed to death.
In Texas, US 290 is poor-boy all the way from Johnson City to Fredericksburg, with AADTs varying from 9000 VPD to about 14,000 VPD. In Kansas, US 54 is four-lane divided all the way from just west of Goddard to just east of Kingman, with AADTs varying from 6000 VPD to about 11,000 VPD.
In Texas, US 87 is poor-boy from Fredericksburg nearly all the way to Comfort, with AADTs varying from 3000 VPD to about 6000 VPD. But the geometry is so poor it is a stressful drive at the posted limit of (I think) 70. In comparison, US 50 between Newton and Emporia spans a similar AADT range with passing lanes and the geometry is commodious enough to support comfortable cruising at 65 as well as overtaking maneuvers at much higher speeds without any sense of challenging tire tread adhesion on curves.
Besides the lack of any separation between opposing lanes of traffic to prevent or mitigate crossover accidents, provision of speed-change facilities on poor-boys tends to be very parsimonious, which stands in stark contrast to Kansas, where state highway intersections tend to be built out for quite a considerable length to make it quite easy for through traffic to get past turning traffic. Here is a turnoff to a major tourist destination (star/diamond-rated by AAA for many years) that does not have a speed-change lane:
PR 52 intersection leading to LBJ ranch (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.2346361,-98.6285599,3a,75y,272.32h,89.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9NmUV2g1UTh_CBa2Kuxqhg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Contrast this with fairly typical provision in Kansas:
US 77/K-4 north of Herington (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6951681,-96.9301886,3a,75y,2.13h,86.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smwEPnrEu_ZwX7Kq6ciXfCg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
When TxDOT fully reconstructs two-lane primary state highways, the result is much closer to what is provided in Kansas. One example of such--not available yet on StreetView, unfortunately--is US 281 through Hamilton County, between Hico and Evant. When I drove this en route to the Hill Country in late October, I found this to be by far the easiest and most pleasant part of US 281 between Jacksboro and the start of the US 281 poor-boy/four-lane-divided combination at Lampasas. (This, by the way, was significantly easier to drive than US 290 between Johnson City and Fredericksburg, I think because it had received full-depth reconstruction to provide a consistent crossfall.)
Quote from: kphoger on December 24, 2016, 12:41:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 11:48:34 AM
What's the difference between a standard two lane highway with passing lanes, and a Super-2?
There's more to Super-2 standards than just passing lanes:
- A good deal of limited access, even though not fully controlled access (most evident near towns)
- Tight curves straightened out
- Grade separation at major junctions
- Wide shoulders
With all due respect, that criteria leaves a lot to opinion. I prefer my definition, it's a lot simpler (even if it's different than some DOTs): any two/three lane highway with grade separation.
As an example, if you have a two/three lane highway, that for 5 miles near a city has grade separation, I would say that "Highway [whatever] is a 'highway', except near [city], where it's a 'Super-2'.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 24, 2016, 01:25:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 11:48:34 AMWhat's the difference between a standard two lane highway with passing lanes, and a Super-2?
None really, except that Super Two implies full shoulders with geometry, roadside development, and access control to generally higher standards.
So basically every modern two lane highway is a Super-2? What's a two lane highway with grade separation? A super-super-2? AFAIC, it's more important to discern between highways with grade separation, and those without. IMO, Super-2 should be reserved exclusively for highways with grade separarion.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 01:31:26 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on December 24, 2016, 01:25:56 PMQuote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 11:48:34 AMWhat's the difference between a standard two lane highway with passing lanes, and a Super-2?
None really, except that Super Two implies full shoulders with geometry, roadside development, and access control to generally higher standards.
So basically every modern two lane highway is a Super-2?
If "modern" implies provision of passing lanes, full shoulders, limitation of access, and high-standard geometry--yes.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 01:31:26 PMWhat's a two lane highway with grade separation?
It is a semi-freeway or (if you prefer Kyle's term, which is more intuitive) a two-lane freeway. A Briton might call it a single-carriageway motorway, a Spaniard might call it a
vÃa rápida, etc.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 01:31:26 PMIMO, Super-2 should be reserved exclusively for highways with grade separation.
Nope. It invites communications failures because of the conflict with the older DOT definition. States vary considerably in the extent to which they have modernized their two-lane rural primary state highways (as well as the speed limits they assign to them), so there is still considerable value in having separate terms for highly improved two-lane roads with and without comprehensive grade separation.
Quote from: kphoger on December 24, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
A Super-4 is a divided highway built to modern standards, with at-grade intersections but limited access where necessary— such that it can be driven at higher speeds without it being a freeway. I'm really struggling to find this definition spelled out online, but I specifically recall the term being applied to the upgrade of IL-13 between Marion and Harrisburg (which is signed at 65 mph rather than 55 mph). As a Super-4 is not a freeway, then it stands to reason a Super-2 is not a freeway either.
That's about as made-up of a name as you can get. Some states allow 65 mph or higher on non-limited access roadways. This just seems like some sort of guideline Illinois has in place that non-limited access roads can't be signed higher than 55. If it's a 4 lane, divided highway, then it's a highway.
(Since terminology varies as well, then this is a freeway/highway/whatever)
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 24, 2016, 01:53:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 24, 2016, 10:41:44 AM
A Super-4 is ...
That's about as made-up of a name as you can get.
Only as made-up of a name as 'Super-2.' And if we're going to eschew the actual definition of 'Super-2' as used by people who actually design state highways for a living, in favor of something that just sounds right to our ears because we've been using it incorrectly all this time, then why bother asking what any of these terms actually mean at all?
IMO those who design highways don't need a term for what they call super-2. Everything else is substandard and IMO needs to be upgraded. Just tell it like it is: those are modern two-lane roads and everything else is deficient and obsolete.
That definition of super-4 sounds functionally identical to an expressway to me.
Now, as roadgeeks, we actually differentiate types of freeways that the DOT definitions have no terms for. That would seem to me to be the better system. I imagine the DOT definition of super-2 evolved out of political motivations of not wanting to admit that so many roads don't meet the standards.
Quote from: vdeane on December 24, 2016, 03:29:32 PM
IMO those who design highways don't need a term for what they call super-2. Everything else is substandard and IMO needs to be upgraded. Just tell it like it is: those are modern two-lane roads and everything else is deficient and obsolete.
Every road that isn't limited access is deficient and obsolete?
That would be a two-lane expressway, but I would consider a road without full shoulders and a high-speed geometry to be obsolete. The definition J N Winkler gave did not imply full access control, or at least my reading of it didn't (I was picturing this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.2909441,-75.5434381,3a,75y,66.15h,77.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJvZn9ULZxrS3VjeAROIz7A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DJvZn9ULZxrS3VjeAROIz7A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D111.63232%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)). In any case, it would seem that a roadgeek super-2 would be a subset of the DOT super-2, and I would say the roadgeek differentiation is the more important one.
I'm not aware of many undivided two lane roads with at-grades and full access control. The only ones I can think of are the Round Lake Bypass, part of NY 104 (maybe), and Autoroutes 30, 55, and 955.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 24, 2016, 01:40:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 01:31:26 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on December 24, 2016, 01:25:56 PMQuote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 11:48:34 AMWhat's the difference between a standard two lane highway with passing lanes, and a Super-2?
None really, except that Super Two implies full shoulders with geometry, roadside development, and access control to generally higher standards.
So basically every modern two lane highway is a Super-2?
If "modern" implies provision of passing lanes, full shoulders, limitation of access, and high-standard geometry--yes.
So what's the point of the term anymore? I can imagine a time when a Super-2 highway was important. Old standards often resulted in roads that were narrow, lacked shoulders, and had curves that were far too sharp. But modern standards basically dictate that any new two lane highway be of Super-2 quality.
By the way, what exactly is limited access? I keep seeing this term thrown around, but I can't quite seem to nail down exactly what it means. I would have thought "limited access" meant RIROs, over or underpasses, etc. Is it meant to imply that most junctions are RIRO except for very important ones?
Quote from: vdeane on December 24, 2016, 03:29:32 PMIMO those who design highways don't need a term for what they call super-2. Everything else is substandard and IMO needs to be upgraded. Just tell it like it is: those are modern two-lane roads and everything else is deficient and obsolete.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 08:05:35 PMSo what's the point of the term anymore? I can imagine a time when a Super-2 highway was important. Old standards often resulted in roads that were narrow, lacked shoulders, and had curves that were far too sharp. But modern standards basically dictate that any new two lane highway be of Super-2 quality.
I don't think a state DOT would agree that the
Super Two term is unnecessary. It might be if we were still building two-lane roads
de novo, but by and large we aren't--the vast majority of two-lane rural primary state highway construction that occurs now is modernization of routes that already exist. Labelling such an improvement as a
Super Two tells the public that the scope of the improvement is not expansion to four-lane divided, or to some other cross section that has succeeded the 1930's three-lane road as an intermediate stage between unmodernized two-lane and divided highway. (Others that have been tried include the poor-boy and various flavors of S2+1 such as the "alternating four-lane" segments of SR 5 in Missouri.)
The paved-shoulders element of the Super Two definition is also important because the current (2011) edition of the Green Book still allows partially surfaced shoulders and the surfacing is not necessarily pavement. Shoulders are also still allowed to be as narrow as 2 ft (on low-volume roads).
The distinction between ordinary two-lane and Super Two in the US is comparable to that between S2 (single carriageway, two lanes) and WS2 (wide single carriageway) in Britain.
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2016, 08:05:35 PMBy the way, what exactly is limited access? I keep seeing this term thrown around, but I can't quite seem to nail down exactly what it means. I would have thought "limited access" meant RIROs, over or underpasses, etc. Is it meant to imply that most junctions are RIRO except for very important ones?
Limited access is an elastic term that implies some degree of access control that is inferior to full control; the phrase by itself does not guarantee that any particular type of access point will be used. The degree of control in effect should be separately evident from the context.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 24, 2016, 09:14:26 PM
I don't think a state DOT would agree that the Super Two term is unnecessary.
Which states use this term, exactly? NE2 posted links to TxDOT, M(I)DOT, and NDOR websites. Buts that's three of 50. I believe the FHWA recognizes the term, but they don't publicise road works. WSDOT doesn't seem to have this term posted on their website, and I don't think Oregon nor Idaho use the term either.
If WSDOT pursues work that involves shoulder widening or passing lane additions, they generally advertise the project as a "shoulder widening" or "add passing lanes (https://goo.gl/FjOVKo)" project (sometimes grouped together as "road safety improvements").
Though there isn't any documentation online, MnDOT has used the "Super-2" term in reference to upgrades to US 12 between Willmar and Wayzata that began in the early 1990s. The associated definition was generally along the lines of what J N Winkler described upthread....with wide shoulders, passing and turn lanes, and better geometry, but not necessarily limited-access.
KDOT uses the term Super Two (albeit in scare quotes) in reference to US 400 between Leon and Parsons in this 2008 piece:
http://www.ksdot.org/Assets/wwwksdotorg/PDF_Files/Transportation%20Infrastructure%20Investment%20and%20the%20Kansas%20Economy%20Final%2011-12-08.pdf
SDDOT also uses the term:
http://www.sddot.com/transportation/highways/planning/specialstudies/docs/epdExecutiveSummaryReport.pdf
So does NDDOT (in reference to an upgrade option for US 2):
http://www.dot.nd.gov/projects/us2pdfs/SECTION%207%20(part%202).pdf
I have never heard of the term "Super-2" being used in official documentation, or that it's a specific engineering term.
To me, "Super-2" is an abbreviation of sorts for "2-Lane Superhighway." So that begs the question, "What is a superhighway?'
To me, a superhighway is a freeway. The term freeway denotes full access control and grade separations. So I would define "Super-2" as a two-lane freeway.
What I would personally consider a bonafide Super 2 is NL-2 west of the Manuels exit. I assume probably none of you here except for maybe Alps have driven on that road.
For the record, NL-2 is a freeway heading west until you reach the Manuels Access Road, afterwards, NL-2 is:
-Completely Grade Separated, there are ZERO at grade crossings, all crossings are either overpasses or underpasses
-There are no driveways, and all accesses to this road occur only at ramps, thus it's 100% controlled access
ALSO, there are ZERO passing lanes on this road for the record
NL-75, a similar bypass road of NL-70 is at points a Super 2, and a regular 2 lane highway at other points, as it has intersections at the Harbour Grace access road for instead.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 25, 2016, 01:54:49 PMI have never heard of the term "Super-2" being used in official documentation, or that it's a specific engineering term.
KyTC uses it. Google turns up a hit in the 2008 standard specifications.
http://transportation.ky.gov/Highway-Design/Standard%20Drawing%20%20Sepia%20PDFs/SEPIA-SERIES-2008.pdf
That is as engineering-related as it gets.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 25, 2016, 01:54:49 PMTo me, a superhighway is a freeway. The term freeway denotes full access control and grade separations. So I would define "Super-2" as a two-lane freeway.
That is not how KDOT or any other state DOT I know of defines it. In pertinent part, the KDOT link I gave above reads: "A $27 million bypass built in 2004 on a new alignment that re-routes US 400 around Parsons' downtown through formerly agricultural land north of Parsons and completes a fully-upgraded 'Super Two' route between Parsons and Wichita to the west and Missouri to the east." Now, the Parsons bypass does have one grade-separated interchange at US 59, but the US 400 corridor as a whole is not two-lane freeway and has multiple intersections on the level.
I have done some further casual searching for state DOT documentation that uses the term
Super Two. So far, in addition to KS, SD, ND, and now KY, I have tried MT, WY, CO, WA, MN, and AZ and have struck out only in WY, WA, and AZ. For all three of these states, I have found FHWA documentation that refers to particular improvements in these states as Super Two facilities.
Bottom line: existing actual usage of the term
Super Two is not restricted to two-lane freeways; and there is no shortage of official documentation (produced by state DOT personnel or contractors and hosted on servers owned or controlled by state DOTs) that uses it.
I'm not sure what the true definition is because it's always been a foggy subject.. but I always believed it was a limited access 2 lane road with no driveways and grade separation at most of it's crossings with very few (if any) at-grade intersections at others. Whether or not at-grades is even supposed to exist on the road at all has always been up in the air...
The WV Turnpike was universally considered a Super-2 but had at-grade intersections at all 3 service plazas.
hbelkins mentioned the Mountain Pkwy in Kentucky. While that one at-grade technically disqualifies it from being a "full freeway" for it's entire length, it's still something most would consider a Super-2.
The Hal Rogers (forever Daniel Boone to me) Pkwy, also in Kentucky, has a number of at-grades even more so now than years past, but again because of its overall limited access nature it is also considered a Super-2 by most.
Oklahoma's Chickasaw Tpk has at-grades near its northeastern end but for the most part still a Super-2.
By the strictest of standards I think everyone can definitely agree US 6 in eastern Massachusetts is an excellent example of one.
I vote for a Super-2 being a two-lane freeway. I don't like the term "two-lane freeway" because a freeway is, in part, a multi-lane divided highway, so I'd rather have a different label for it and this one works because it suggests a two-lane superhighway. As for what it actually is, I'm afraid that depends on whom you ask. If we're voting, I vote for a two-lane highway with repeated passing lanes being called a "two-plus" road.
To get really technical, which I like to do, we'd also need a name for a two-lane not-quite-freeway with partial access control. Maybe we should also distinguish between divided and undivided two-lane freeways. I don't know how common divided ones are, but the two-lane southern part of the Chisholm Trail Parkway has a barrier both for safety and because without it some of the ramp tolls could be avoided by use of U-turns. That road is divided, has full access control, and has passing lanes, so it's a Super-2 by every definition.
The actual definition seems to be outdated by most modern road design or vague at best. In modern terms I always thought of it as a divided two-lane road with limited access. A good example of what I have in mind is the 18 mile stretch of US 1 between Florida City and Key Largo.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2016, 12:54:52 PM
The actual definition seems to be outdated by most modern road design or vague at best. In modern terms I always thought of it as a divided two-lane road with limited access. A good example of what I have in mind is the 18 mile stretch of US 1 between Florida City and Key Largo.
I agree with this except for the divided portion. I'd simply go with 2 lanes, full on/off access via interchanges, and no other access permitted.
Quote from: wxfree on December 26, 2016, 12:50:28 PM
To get really technical, which I like to do, we'd also need a name for a two-lane not-quite-freeway with partial access control.
Well, one of the local nicknames given to US 322 between I-95 and US 1 in PA is the Killer Conchester Pike, but I don't think that's a term you're going for.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 26, 2016, 01:09:58 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 26, 2016, 12:54:52 PM
The actual definition seems to be outdated by most modern road design or vague at best. In modern terms I always thought of it as a divided two-lane road with limited access. A good example of what I have in mind is the 18 mile stretch of US 1 between Florida City and Key Largo.
I agree with this except for the divided portion. I'd simply go with 2 lanes, full on/off access via interchanges, and no other access permitted.
Actually I'm inclined to agree with that sentiment especially with examples like FL 570 and FL 407 where the access is strictly limited.
Would Bethpage State Parkway on Long Island be a Super 2?
Quote from: mapman1071 on December 27, 2016, 12:18:52 AM
Would Bethpage State Parkway on Long Island be a Super 2?
Absolutely. It's pretty tough to argue against that one.
The following three pictures are from a segment of the Bel Air Bypass, which carries U.S. Route 1 around Bel Air, Maryland to the north of Baltimore. This segment is two lanes and has a freeway-style interchange at which Maryland Route 24 joins, leaving Maryland Route 924 to continue into downtown Bel Air; at that point the Bypass expands into four lanes. Looking at the pictures below, does anyone think it's an example of a Super-2?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FsEjsDh2.jpg&hash=db938370ccccf8bc522532ee91b4a9fd5dc294a2)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F5HC11ZQ.jpg&hash=1c9706dda46970b7b3a05819dbcbae4b451cd57b)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK50aR1o.jpg&hash=e825740ac348d6e456dfbf94d7d46faee9d32b08)
Super-2 highways are somewhat common in the Nordic nations, and I have driven them more there than I have here in the U.S. (though the far northern section of I-95, from Bangor to Houlton, was originally built as a Super-2, but it widened out to four lanes divided at most of the interchanges, then back to two lanes undivided, probably the longest Super-2 I have ever experienced), and people we knew in Maine said that there were a lot of head-on fatal crashes on that part of the road (it was converted to a conventional four lane freeway many years ago).
Maryland had Super-2 sections of MD-695 (Baltimore Beltway, sometimes signed as I-695) approaching the F.S. Key Bridge toll crossing (the bridge itself always four lanes divided) on both sides. The west side from MD-10 was converted to a four lane freeway first, then the east side from MD-151 was rebuilt as four divided lanes in the 1990's.
Sweden has attempted to reduce the crash problem on its Super-2 highways by putting a steel barrier in the middle to prevent drivers from forgetting that they are on a Super-2, also preventing passing for the most part, but providing (in some places) two lanes in one direction so that slower traffic can be passed. Sometimes that extra lane is intended to be a truck climbing lane, but not always. These three lane roads are sometimes called "2+1" - here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/57%C2%B001'42.0%22N+14%C2%B001'09.0%22E/@57.0138274,14.0393428,3a,75y,24.7h,81.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sbDCAX1ofgoLGBoJH-uZALg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DbDCAX1ofgoLGBoJH-uZALg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D99.13684%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d57.028333!4d14.019167) is an example of a 2+1 road with barrier between opposite directions of traffic.
Legally, such roads are defined as two lane (or sometimes three lane as described above) highways with full access control and where motorway traffic rules and laws apply (unnecessary stopping, pedestrians, bikes and horse-drawn vehicles are prohibited).
Quote from: vdeane on December 24, 2016, 04:00:28 PM
That would be a two-lane expressway, but I would consider a road without full shoulders and a high-speed geometry to be obsolete. The definition J N Winkler gave did not imply full access control, or at least my reading of it didn't (I was picturing this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.2909441,-75.5434381,3a,75y,66.15h,77.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJvZn9ULZxrS3VjeAROIz7A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DJvZn9ULZxrS3VjeAROIz7A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D111.63232%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)). In any case, it would seem that a roadgeek super-2 would be a subset of the DOT super-2, and I would say the roadgeek differentiation is the more important one.
I'm not aware of many undivided two lane roads with at-grades and full access control. The only ones I can think of are the Round Lake Bypass, part of NY 104 (maybe), and Autoroutes 30, 55, and 955.
NY 104 between Williamson (or so) and the Wayne-Cayuga County line comes to my mind as a Super 2. As does NY 3 between Hannibal and Fulton, NY 30A between the southern and northern city lines of Gloversville.
Are these not super 2s?
By definitions that include limited-access but not full access control, yes those would generally qualify. NY 104 would go from from NY 88 (not quite to Williamson) to the Wayne-Cayuga line. NY 3 more or less fits. If not for a couple of farm access points near the northern Gloversville line and a couple driveways near CR 154, NY 30A's super-2 section would extend to NY 30 and then another mile up NY 30 towards Mayfield.
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
By definitions that include limited-access but not full access control, yes those would generally qualify. NY 104 would go from from NY 88 (not quite to Williamson) to the Wayne-Cayuga line. NY 3 more or less fits. If not for a couple of farm access points near the northern Gloversville line and a couple driveways near CR 154, NY 30A's super-2 section would extend to NY 30 and then another mile up NY 30 towards Mayfield.
Maryland has a few "almost" Super-2 highways, such as these:
Allegany County - U.S. 220 north of I-68 has some segments that are obviously intended to have full access control, but the interchange at I-68 is not a freeway-to-freeway design, and approaching the Pennsylvania border, there are at least two intersections at-grade.
Carroll County - MD-97 in Eldersburg has a section that resembles a Super-2, but has several at-grade intersections.
Frederick County - U.S. 15 from the roundabout at MD-464 to U.S. 340 (but has intersections at-grade).
Howard County - MD-32 from MD-108 at Clarksville in the south to north of Pfefferkorn Road in West Friendship nearly qualifies, but has an at-grade crossing at the SHA and Howard County road maintenance shops.
Worcester County - MD-90 from U.S. 50 to MD-528 in Ocean City even has a steel barrier to prevent passing for much of its length, but has at least one signalized at-grade intersection (I think there were once more).
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2016, 06:35:13 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
By definitions that include limited-access but not full access control, yes those would generally qualify. NY 104 would go from from NY 88 (not quite to Williamson) to the Wayne-Cayuga line. NY 3 more or less fits. If not for a couple of farm access points near the northern Gloversville line and a couple driveways near CR 154, NY 30A's super-2 section would extend to NY 30 and then another mile up NY 30 towards Mayfield.
Maryland has a few "almost" Super-2 highways, such as these:
Howard County - MD-32 from MD-108 at Clarksville in the south to north of Pfefferkorn Road in West Friendship nearly qualifies, but has an at-grade crossing at the SHA and Howard County road maintenance shops.
That may not count as breakage in the highway as it's maintenance only area.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2016, 06:35:13 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
By definitions that include limited-access but not full access control, yes those would generally qualify. NY 104 would go from from NY 88 (not quite to Williamson) to the Wayne-Cayuga line. NY 3 more or less fits. If not for a couple of farm access points near the northern Gloversville line and a couple driveways near CR 154, NY 30A's super-2 section would extend to NY 30 and then another mile up NY 30 towards Mayfield.
Maryland has a few "almost" Super-2 highways, such as these:
Allegany County - U.S. 220 north of I-68 has some segments that are obviously intended to have full access control, but the interchange at I-68 is not a freeway-to-freeway design, and approaching the Pennsylvania border, there are at least two intersections at-grade.
Carroll County - MD-97 in Eldersburg has a section that resembles a Super-2, but has several at-grade intersections.
Frederick County - U.S. 15 from the roundabout at MD-464 to U.S. 340 (but has intersections at-grade).
Howard County - MD-32 from MD-108 at Clarksville in the south to north of Pfefferkorn Road in West Friendship nearly qualifies, but has an at-grade crossing at the SHA and Howard County road maintenance shops.
Worcester County - MD-90 from U.S. 50 to MD-528 in Ocean City even has a steel barrier to prevent passing for much of its length, but has at least one signalized at-grade intersection (I think there were once more).
"Limited access", by definition in most states (although Virginia for some reason swaps the definitions of limited-access and controlled-access), allows at-grade intersections. Based on personal experience, most of your mentions would meet the Super-2 definition I described upthread.
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on December 29, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 29, 2016, 06:35:13 PM
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2016, 11:05:56 AM
By definitions that include limited-access but not full access control, yes those would generally qualify. NY 104 would go from from NY 88 (not quite to Williamson) to the Wayne-Cayuga line. NY 3 more or less fits. If not for a couple of farm access points near the northern Gloversville line and a couple driveways near CR 154, NY 30A's super-2 section would extend to NY 30 and then another mile up NY 30 towards Mayfield.
Maryland has a few "almost" Super-2 highways, such as these:
Howard County - MD-32 from MD-108 at Clarksville in the south to north of Pfefferkorn Road in West Friendship nearly qualifies, but has an at-grade crossing at the SHA and Howard County road maintenance shops.
That may not count as breakage in the highway as it's maintenance only area.
It also has a traffic signal for movements coming from the direction opposite to to the maintenance yards (in this case, southbound MD-32). Google satellite view is here (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Glenelg,+MD/@39.2501683,-76.9795987,496m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c827ec1aeb5357:0x1e7e479735bd421d!8m2!3d39.2592982!4d-76.9896261).
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2016, 10:45:27 PM
"Limited access", by definition in most states (although Virginia for some reason swaps the definitions of limited-access and controlled-access), allows at-grade intersections. Based on personal experience, most of your mentions would meet the Super-2 definition I described upthread.
You may well be correct.
The old West Virginia Turnpike had left turns into and out of its service plazas when it was a two-lane undivided road.
I did not experience those myself, but I have read that this design resulted in more than a few head-on crashes.
I prefer the definition that requires Super-2 roads have full access control without any crossing roads at-grade. And I do not like them in the United States, because most drivers have not seen such a road.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on December 30, 2016, 11:25:42 AM
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2016, 10:45:27 PM
"Limited access", by definition in most states (although Virginia for some reason swaps the definitions of limited-access and controlled-access), allows at-grade intersections. Based on personal experience, most of your mentions would meet the Super-2 definition I described upthread.
You may well be correct.
The old West Virginia Turnpike had left turns into and out of its service plazas when it was a two-lane undivided road.
I did not experience those myself, but I have read that this design resulted in more than a few head-on crashes.
I prefer the definition that requires Super-2 roads have full access control without any crossing roads at-grade. And I do not like them in the United States, because most drivers have not seen such a road.
I think the PA Turnpike had a paved median to cross over to the service plazas when they first opened as well. You can see this at the abandoned Sideling Hill service plaza.
Quote from: froggie on December 29, 2016, 10:45:27 PM
"Limited access", by definition in most states (although Virginia for some reason swaps the definitions of limited-access and controlled-access), allows at-grade intersections. Based on personal experience, most of your mentions would meet the Super-2 definition I described upthread.
For years, Kentucky used the term "limited access" on its maps to denote interstates and parkways (or other freeways like New Circle Road, the westernmost part of KY 841 and the US 60 Owensboro bypass. I don't know what terminology is used now; I've quit paying attention.
West Virginia used "access fully controlled" for its interstates and other freeways, and "access partially controlled" for what we generally call expressways but they call "corridors" (as in APD corridors).