From News 4 (KRNV-Reno, Nevada):
Cars stranded on Dog Valley Road when Google Maps suggests alternate route to I-80QuoteInterstate 80 has been closed over Donner Pass at least three times in the month of January. Many drivers searching through an alternate route through the Sierra are ending up stranded in the snow on Dog Valley Road near Verdi.
"If weather conditions are bad enough and a major thoroughfare like I-80 is closed, what do you think conditions are going to be like on a single-track dirt road that winds its way through the mountains? They're not going to be safe."
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1ja)
Use some common sense people. :pan: Maps and GPS are tools, they are not a replacement for thinking.
Common sense ain't common, I guess most people really never have read up on what happened to the Donner Party in that area. :rolleyes: What I'm not understanding is, how is Dog Valley Road an alternate? Beyond the Stampede Reservoir where are you even going to go? You're basically boned if I-80 is shut down; CA 88, US 50, and US 395 are likely to be in just as bad of shape in that instance.
The adventures of the Stolpa family (http://articles.latimes.com/1993-01-07/news/mn-949_1_deep-snow) are the classic tale, and that was long before GPS. We need to get from the Bay Area to Pocatello and I-80 is closed, what do we do? Get out the map. Oh, look, there's the way!
QuoteRelatives said the Stolpas had planned to drive east on Interstate 80 into Nevada, then turn north on U.S. 93 in the eastern part of the state. But because of wintry conditions, authorities said, the family took an alternate route, proceeding east on California 299.
They passed through Alturas and Cedarville in Modoc County and became stranded about 40 miles east of the California border, where the road turns to gravel and is renamed Washoe County Road 8A. The road is seldom traveled in winter, Washoe County officials said.
Quote from: gonealookin on January 14, 2017, 02:30:25 PM
The adventures of the Stolpa family (http://articles.latimes.com/1993-01-07/news/mn-949_1_deep-snow) are the classic tale, and that was long before GPS. We need to get from the Bay Area to Pocatello and I-80 is closed, what do we do? Get out the map. Oh, look, there's the way!
QuoteRelatives said the Stolpas had planned to drive east on Interstate 80 into Nevada, then turn north on U.S. 93 in the eastern part of the state. But because of wintry conditions, authorities said, the family took an alternate route, proceeding east on California 299.
They passed through Alturas and Cedarville in Modoc County and became stranded about 40 miles east of the California border, where the road turns to gravel and is renamed Washoe County Road 8A. The road is seldom traveled in winter, Washoe County officials said.
I've done 8A from the eastern end of CA 299 to NV 140 in the past. 8A is no joke even in good weather because of the remoteness of the terrain. I'd say if you prepared, knew what you were getting into, and monitored the weather in the summer time that it might be doable for the average driver.....but what average driver would check that much into the conditions out there in the desert?
This is my personal favorite GPS borne disaster:
Just to put the proper context on this...
Because of the extreme weather that California faced this week (they are using the term "atmospheric river"), I-80 has been closed several times this week, first due to a rock slide (Sunday from 6 PM until Monday morning), then blizzard/zero visibility conditions (11 PM Monday until Wednesday afternoon, followed by only one lane open at R-2 chain conditions, until no chains on Friday). Interstate 80 is the primary route across the Sierra Nevada, US-50 is the secondary route, and then the CA-routes. And, at this time of the year, you don't have that many alternatives.
I can understand why people were trying the alternative route to get home. They were probably missing more work than they had planned for. This, however, wasn't unexpected. I saw the weather predictions last week for this week, and promptly cancelled my hotel reservations up in Reno this week. I have never used chains, and this was not the week to learn. Of course, I'm the guy who believes that, in those conditions, it's not the going that's the problem, it's the stopping.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 14, 2017, 02:39:43 PM
I've done 8A from the eastern end of CA 299 to NV 140 in the past. 8A is no joke even in good weather because of the remoteness of the terrain. I'd say if you prepared, knew what you were getting into, and monitored the weather in the summer time that it might be doable for the average driver.....but what average driver would check that much into the conditions out there in the desert?
This is my personal favorite GPS borne disaster:
There's an old thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=10239.msg242487) about this "GPS Astray" story.
Quote from: ZLoth on January 14, 2017, 02:50:01 PM
Just to put the proper context on this...
Because of the extreme weather that California faced this week (they are using the term "atmospheric river"), I-80 has been closed several times this week, first due to a rock slide (Sunday from 6 PM until Monday morning), then blizzard/zero visibility conditions (11 PM Monday until Wednesday afternoon, followed by only one lane open at R-2 chain conditions, until no chains on Friday). Interstate 80 is the primary route across the Sierra Nevada, US-50 is the secondary route, and then the CA-routes. And, at this time of the year, you don't have that many alternatives.
I can understand why people were trying the alternative route to get home. They were probably missing more work than they had planned for. This, however, wasn't unexpected. I saw the weather predictions last week for this week, and promptly cancelled my hotel reservations up in Reno this week. I have never used chains, and this was not the week to learn. Of course, I'm the guy who believes that, in those conditions, it's not the going that's the problem, it's the stopping.
Incidentally I've been seeing this CHP video all over Facebook today on I-80:
Basically a lot of my plans have been cancelled also because of the weather and I wasn't even going to the Sierras. There is flood damage and slides everywhere even at lower elevations. I spent the whole week warning people at work to prepare for this with building damage and luckily there wasn't anything too bad that wasn't anticipated....good thing sand bags are easy to come by.
In regards to GPS Ashtray, yeah I watched that thing when it actually aired on TV. I can't believe how they paint the adult in that story as a sympathetic figure when she endangered two kids. Those CHP Officers must have been thrilled to see her at the end of the piece. :-D
In the winter there are times when access to Reno-Tahoe from the west is pretty much impossible so you're just stuck. In the situation this past week, access from the south was also closed off for a time. In addition to the I-80 whiteout:
1. US 50 had to be closed between Twin Bridges and Meyers for avalanche control. It was briefly opened to one-way traffic escorted by the California Highway Patrol but they gave up on that rather quickly; it was pretty much totally shut down for well over 12 hours.
2. CA 88 traverses a nasty north-facing slope known as "Carson Spur" just west of the Kirkwood ski resort, and that also has severe avalanche issues. It has closed more than open for the last week and a half. Usually Kirkwood can be accessed from the east over Carson Pass, but that was closed for quite a while too this week due to excessive snow.
3. US 395, which goes over 8000 feet at a couple places between Bridgeport and Mammoth Lakes, was closed over that stretch due to whiteout conditions.
4. US 95 was closed at Walker Lake north of Hawthorne due to mud and rock slides.
I don't know for sure about CA 49, CA 70 and CA 36 which are the alternates to the north. 49 is a twisty thing which can't really handle any amount of traffic, 70 goes through a slide-prone canyon and 36 gets some very heavy snow.
I occasionally fly out of Sacramento rather than Reno and never assume that I will be able to zip down there from Tahoe in a couple hours during a winter storm. If weather threatens I leave as far ahead of time as I need to and spend an extra night in Sacramento.
^^^
Geeze almost sounds like you would have had to swung out to NV 361 with US 95 shut down just to access US 6 to make it back into California.
Something is up with 49 right now on the Caltrans quick map. It says that the highway is only open north of CA 20 for locals and truck deliveries. 70 looks like it had a slip-out but the road appears to have stayed open. I guess it really comes down to how chancy you want to get, it isn't like Reno or Carson City isn't lacking for cheap hotel rooms.
If they don't want people to use Dog Valley Road, they should close it for the season, not blame GPS. I'm surprised that Google considers the road a viable alternative, but, there are cars that are capable of using the road when it's covered in snow (lifted Jeeps, 4Runners, Land Rovers, etc). Most vehicles, like Altimas, Rav4s, and Chrysler 200s, probably aren't meant for the road, but it should be the choice of the driver, whether or not traversing the pass is a good idea.
Like roads that are closed during the winter, and those that are tolled, there should be an additional road type: "unmaintained road" (though maybe there is, it's just not something that GMaps mentions in navigation). For example, if Google decides to take you over Dog Valley Road when the 80 is closed, it should say, somewhere in orange or red subtext, "this route is not maintained in the winter", and some sort of checkbox must be selected before the "start navigation" button is clickable.
Quote from: ZLoth on January 14, 2017, 02:50:01 PM
I saw the weather predictions last week for this week, and promptly cancelled my hotel reservations up in Reno this week. I have never used chains, and this was not the week to learn. Of course, I'm the guy who believes that, in those conditions, it's not the going that's the problem, it's the stopping.
If you live in Sacramento, knowing how to install chains opens up your winter travel opportunities a lot. 98% of winter storms don't close I-80. Practice chain installation on a nice warm dry day, ideally on a weekend in some deserted industrial park parking lot so you don't look quite so geeky.
That said, I have lived at Tahoe for quite a few years now and haven't installed chains since I've been here. AWD and winter tires is a complete solution. I do carry a set of cheap cable chains just in case but I can't recall seeing an R-3 chain requirement; the road would be closed instead. The braking technique is, frequent quick light taps on the brakes, particularly when going down a decent hill, in addition to obviously slowing down and not following too close. The instinct is to try to push the brake pedal through the floor but all that happens then is, your antilock brakes yell at you that you're doing it wrong.
Quote from: gonealookin on January 14, 2017, 04:19:18 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on January 14, 2017, 02:50:01 PM
I saw the weather predictions last week for this week, and promptly cancelled my hotel reservations up in Reno this week. I have never used chains, and this was not the week to learn. Of course, I'm the guy who believes that, in those conditions, it's not the going that's the problem, it's the stopping.
If you live in Sacramento, knowing how to install chains opens up your winter travel opportunities a lot. 98% of winter storms don't close I-80. Practice chain installation on a nice warm dry day, ideally on a weekend in some deserted industrial park parking lot so you don't look quite so geeky.
I also cancelled out on the Brian Setzer Rocking Christmas on December 23rd due to bad weather. I understand what you are saying. I've lived in Sacramento since 1977 too, and realize the tradeoffs.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
If they don't want people to use Dog Valley Road, they should close it for the season, not blame GPS.
Or erect signs, "Road Not Maintained in Winter" or "GPS Routing Not Advised."
QuoteI'm surprised that Google considers the road a viable alternative...
You'd be surprised what Google or other GPS units will try to do. Obviously I know how to get home from nearly anywhere, but I'll often plug the route into my Garmin just to see how long it will take (and then try to beat that time as a little game).
Coming from the west, my Garmin wants to route me across a road that may not even be there in Estill County instead of KY 52. Part of it is definitely a county road, but I'm not sure that the middle portion is even a maintained road, much less a public passageway. And coming from the north, it routes me on a gravel county road and through a church parking lot instead of staying on KY 498 about a mile and a half from home. Neither routing is logical.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 14, 2017, 09:59:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
If they don't want people to use Dog Valley Road, they should close it for the season, not blame GPS.
Or erect signs, "Road Not Maintained in Winter" or "GPS Routing Not Advised."
QuoteI'm surprised that Google considers the road a viable alternative...
You'd be surprised what Google or other GPS units will try to do. Obviously I know how to get home from nearly anywhere, but I'll often plug the route into my Garmin just to see how long it will take (and then try to beat that time as a little game).
Coming from the west, my Garmin wants to route me across a road that may not even be there in Estill County instead of KY 52. Part of it is definitely a county road, but I'm not sure that the middle portion is even a maintained road, much less a public passageway. And coming from the north, it routes me on a gravel county road and through a church parking lot instead of staying on KY 498 about a mile and a half from home. Neither routing is logical.
You get some really interesting GPS suggestions out here in California. A lot of that has to do with the almost blanket rural speed limit of 55 MPH on pretty much anything that is a maintained road. Basically that means in theory something like CA 4 over Ebbetts Pass which is just a wide single lane with 24% grades at times can be driven perfectly legally up to 55 MPH. I see a lot of people out in the sticks that clearly ended up taking the low road because their GPS told them to do so, usually you can tell from the really slow pace they take. So from that aspect I'm not personally surprised Google or a GPS might find an alternate to I-80, but I'm really struggling to think where you are supposed to come out of Dog Valley Road onto. Really the road looks pretty much to be kind of a dead end, or at least it wouldn't it be very easy to tell where you wanted to go next after the Stampede Reservoir. I'm guessing that people were being directed to Henness Pass Road into Nevada.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 14, 2017, 09:59:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
If they don't want people to use Dog Valley Road, they should close it for the season, not blame GPS.
Or erect signs, "Road Not Maintained in Winter" or "GPS Routing Not Advised."
From Google Streetview - August, 2011:
Pavement Ends - No Snow Removal (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5243031,-120.0126933,3a,75y,320.35h,80.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ4s525Qv9S7R5GO44GALFQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Travel Advisory - Don't depend on computer-based routing tools (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5245569,-120.0131301,3a,75y,315.03h,89.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMtEDSKRkNkxvm46Qbm5mJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Of course, there is also the new signs that have been put up. See https://t.co/e8ysBlY2zS
Quote from: ZLoth on January 15, 2017, 03:57:20 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 14, 2017, 09:59:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
If they don't want people to use Dog Valley Road, they should close it for the season, not blame GPS.
Or erect signs, "Road Not Maintained in Winter" or "GPS Routing Not Advised."
From Google Streetview - August, 2011:
Pavement Ends - No Snow Removal (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5243031,-120.0126933,3a,75y,320.35h,80.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ4s525Qv9S7R5GO44GALFQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Travel Advisory - Don't depend on computer-based routing tools (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5245569,-120.0131301,3a,75y,315.03h,89.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMtEDSKRkNkxvm46Qbm5mJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Of course, there is also the new signs that have been put up. See https://t.co/e8ysBlY2zS
A) the signs aren't big enough
B) we've already established that people don't read the signs anyway
C) people rely on their GPS too much
So, rather than dump more money into new signage, they ought to work with map-makers to label the road as unmaintained in the winter, and somehow, develop a way to announce that fact to the driver.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 15, 2017, 04:22:10 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on January 15, 2017, 03:57:20 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 14, 2017, 09:59:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2017, 04:07:19 PM
If they don't want people to use Dog Valley Road, they should close it for the season, not blame GPS.
Or erect signs, "Road Not Maintained in Winter" or "GPS Routing Not Advised."
From Google Streetview - August, 2011:
Pavement Ends - No Snow Removal (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5243031,-120.0126933,3a,75y,320.35h,80.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ4s525Qv9S7R5GO44GALFQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Travel Advisory - Don't depend on computer-based routing tools (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5245569,-120.0131301,3a,75y,315.03h,89.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMtEDSKRkNkxvm46Qbm5mJQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1)
Of course, there is also the new signs that have been put up. See https://t.co/e8ysBlY2zS
A) the signs aren't big enough
B) we've already established that people don't read the signs anyway
C) people rely on their GPS too much
So, rather than dump more money into new signage, they ought to work with map-makers to label the road as unmaintained in the winter, and somehow, develop a way to announce that fact to the driver.
Why not just put a closure gate at the part of the road that isn't plowed in the winter? State highways in California do it already and that way you don't have to worry about someone being an idiot listening to their GPS.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 15, 2017, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 15, 2017, 04:22:10 PM
A) the signs aren't big enough
B) we've already established that people don't read the signs anyway
C) people rely on their GPS too much
So, rather than dump more money into new signage, they ought to work with map-makers to label the road as unmaintained in the winter, and somehow, develop a way to announce that fact to the driver.
Why not just put a closure gate at the part of the road that isn't plowed in the winter? State highways in California do it already and that way you don't have to worry about someone being an idiot listening to their GPS.
In the interim, I think that'd be a better idea, because my suggestion is rather technical and difficult to implement (though superior in the long run, because GPSs are taken very literally, so if the GPS said "don't use this road", I suspect that the driver wouldn't use the road).
Perhaps they don't close it because it's a popular green lane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_lane_(road)) (of sorts) with 4x4 owners, who may have protested against its closure in the past.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 15, 2017, 05:02:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 15, 2017, 04:33:19 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 15, 2017, 04:22:10 PM
A) the signs aren't big enough
B) we've already established that people don't read the signs anyway
C) people rely on their GPS too much
So, rather than dump more money into new signage, they ought to work with map-makers to label the road as unmaintained in the winter, and somehow, develop a way to announce that fact to the driver.
Why not just put a closure gate at the part of the road that isn't plowed in the winter? State highways in California do it already and that way you don't have to worry about someone being an idiot listening to their GPS.
In the interim, I think that'd be a better idea, because my suggestion is rather technical and difficult to implement (though superior in the long run, because GPSs are taken very literally, so if the GPS said "don't use this road", I suspect that the driver wouldn't use the road).
Perhaps they don't close it because it's a popular green lane (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_lane_(road)) (of sorts) with 4x4 owners, who may have protested against its closure in the past.
Is it though? Considering how deep the snow can get near Truckee really about the only thing that probably could get through might be a snowmobile. Cottonwood Canyon Road to Bodie kind of works like that down in Mono County for people who want to visit in the winter. But I don't think anyone would try to go through Bodie to get into Nevada by accidental GPS detour.....given what I read in that article I could be wrong though. :-D
So CA 70 did stay open, but with some slide areas?
I always liked that route.
Quote from: kkt on January 17, 2017, 07:00:32 PM
So CA 70 did stay open, but with some slide areas?
I always liked that route.
I believe so, but then again I looked that far north right after the storms passed. I can tell you one thing, even mundane stuff in the foothills like 245 were a complete disaster even on Sunday. I have so much on the bottom of my Sonic from just the couple miles on 245 from the north end of J21 south to Boyd Drive.
Donner Pass? Is that the Donner Pass? You know, where those people got stranded and...
Quote from: epzik8 on January 19, 2017, 07:04:59 AM
Donner Pass? Is that the Donner Pass? You know, where those people got stranded and...
Well technically I-80 goes over Donner Summit. Donner Pass would have been part of US 40 just to the south on Donner Pass Road. And yes that would be THE Donner Pass with the cannibalism and such. Too bad there wasn't really anything on the eastern Sierra in 1846 for those people to bail out of the snow storms back to in those days. Now....the real interesting thing is that Donner Pass is one of the easiest passes in the Sierras which is why people used it to get to California and why I-80 uses the general path today.
Now Walker Pass has an interesting history too, especially when another group tried to find a short cut to it....didn't go so well. :rolleyes:
Yes, Donner Pass is where the Donner Party got stuck. I-80's route is a little higher than the old trail, but gentler grades. The pass is the best choice for crossing without going far out of the way to the north (where CA 70 crosses today) or far out of the way to the south (I-40). What the Donner Party didn't realize is that it can go from a pleasant Indian summer in early October to new storms laying down more feet of snow every few days in mid October. They thought the storms wouldn't really set in until November, by which point they hoped to be across.
The Donner Party was pretty stretched out in a series of camps and a couple of cabins. There were several relief parties sent, some of the party were rescued as early as February, but the last survivor wasn't brought to Sutter's Fort until April.
If you're interested in Donner Pass history, also read up on the stranded train full of passengers, stuck in 1952. Took three days and the life of one of the rescuers to get the passengers out, and weeks to get train out and the railroad operating again.
There's no substituite for a good paper map and sense.
Quote from: kkt on January 19, 2017, 01:56:13 PM
Yes, Donner Pass is where the Donner Party got stuck. I-80's route is a little higher than the old trail, but gentler grades. The pass is the best choice for crossing without going far out of the way to the north (where CA 70 crosses today) or far out of the way to the south (I-40). What the Donner Party didn't realize is that it can go from a pleasant Indian summer in early October to new storms laying down more feet of snow every few days in mid October. They thought the storms wouldn't really set in until November, by which point they hoped to be across.
The Donner Party was pretty stretched out in a series of camps and a couple of cabins. There were several relief parties sent, some of the party were rescued as early as February, but the last survivor wasn't brought to Sutter's Fort until April.
If you're interested in Donner Pass history, also read up on the stranded train full of passengers, stuck in 1952. Took three days and the life of one of the rescuers to get the passengers out, and weeks to get train out and the railroad operating again.
Most years they would be right, including this past year. I was able to keep going up to the high Sierra even over 108 and 4 through late October-early November this past year. Sometimes you just get a freak start to the winter season and I would imagine it was much more common in the mid-1800s.
It is pretty amazing to think that 1846 really wasn't that long ago and how little was really known about what is now the western desert states. The Donner Party crossing is really what was the instigator for the next notable disaster in crossing the Sierras in 1849 when another party was looking for a short cut to Walker Pass. Eventually they found what they were looking for, but not before finding Groom Lake (Area 51), Death Valley, and really most of the Mojave on their way. At least they were right about Walker Pass being a viable winter crossing of the Sierra.
https://www.nps.gov/deva/learn/historyculture/the-lost-49ers.htm
It looks like there will be more opportunities for bad decisions this upcoming weekend. This is for the Sunday storm, and notice that the estimates are at the lower elevation towns; there will be much more as you go up into the mountains. (Also: nice highway shields on the National Weather Service graphics, much better than the usual newspaper graphics.)
(Edit: Image posted on Photobucket deleted)
^^^
But it should be pretty scenic come Wednesday once the storms clear....might need to venture up to Yosemite finally for the season....granted on 140. :rolleyes:
As the signature of one of our regular posters proclaims, "GPS is not G-O-D."
Quote from: hm insulators on January 20, 2017, 03:00:22 PM
As the signature of one of our regular posters proclaims, "GPS is not G-O-D."
No, GPS is not G-O-D. It is a tool, just like a map (paper or online), road atlas, compass, roadside information signs, and signs on a roadway. And, it is only as good as the information provided and the person who is using it.
My problem is with people who read stories like this and instantly pronounce that "GPS is no good!!!!" No, the problem is with the users who don't THINK!!!!!
And now I can't use the Goog to show me the distance along Dog Valley Road for historical research purposes. What the fuck.
Google Maps doesn't even try to display a difference between a dirt/gravel road from a paved one; using a light gray line over the satellite view of a road is a poor choice...so one could think that they're about to drive on pavement.
On a PC, you can zoom in and look to see if it's a dirt road, but it's quite hard to tell on a phone.
The current closure of US 50 between Placerville and South Lake Tahoe due to a mudslide reminds me that a signed "Alternate US 50" exists, partly using Mormon Emigrant Trail, but it's unavailable in winter. If somebody's GPS routes them that way, I don't know if the smiling patrolman is there to turn them around, but one hopes they notice the sign:
(Edit: Image posted on Photobucket deleted)
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1910932165806977 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1910932165806977)
The available route from the valley to South Lake Tahoe is, get to Jackson, take CA 88 east over Carson Pass to CA 89 in Hope Valley, then CA 89 north over Luther Pass to Meyers. Beyond the intersection of Mormon Emigrant Trail and CA 88 that is coincident with Alternate US 50. I was in Meyers earlier today and noticed that the rarely-used Alternate US 50 sign remains covered up.