Anyone know anything about I-95 being closed in parts of North Carolina? My mom told me she had to take a detour back to Maryland because they were directing everyone off I-95 at Fayetteville or something.
If it was Sunday night, it was probably this:
http://wncn.com/2017/04/23/crash-closes-parts-of-i-95-north-of-fayetteville/
QuoteFAYETTEVILLE, N.C. (WNCN) – Traffic was backed up for miles while Interstate 95 was closed for several hours north of Fayetteville on Sunday evening.
A vehicle crash around 4:10 p.m. closed all I-95 lanes heading north near exit 65, which is NC Highway 82/North West Street, according to the North Carolina Department of Transportation.
Quote from: Kniwt on April 26, 2017, 05:05:47 PM
If it was Sunday night, it was probably this:
http://wncn.com/2017/04/23/crash-closes-parts-of-i-95-north-of-fayetteville/
QuoteFAYETTEVILLE, N.C. (WNCN) – Traffic was backed up for miles while Interstate 95 was closed for several hours north of Fayetteville on Sunday evening.
A vehicle crash around 4:10 p.m. closed all I-95 lanes heading north near exit 65, which is NC Highway 82/North West Street, according to the North Carolina Department of Transportation.
Dang.. that backup.. The feds need to get the funding to widen I-95 ASAP.
A wider I-95 would have been just as shut down as the current one...
Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2017, 10:08:58 PM
A wider I-95 would have been just as shut down as the current one...
True, but they might have at least been able to get either 1 lane or use the shoulder to at least start clearing the backup well before 4 hours.
Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2017, 10:08:58 PM
A wider I-95 would have been just as shut down as the current one...
Nope. not if it is widened to 8 lanes.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 26, 2017, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2017, 10:08:58 PM
A wider I-95 would have been just as shut down as the current one...
True, but they might have at least been able to get either 1 lane or use the shoulder to at least start clearing the backup well before 4 hours.
This. I-95
desperately needs widened.
If it was a bad enough crash, proper emergency management would shut down the highway regardless of the number of lanes. Even if they kept one lane (or the shoulder) open, you'd have still had significant bottleneck.
Segments of I-95 may need widening (and I did an analysis of such (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19592.msg2203257#msg2203257) a couple months ago), but uncommon crashes like this are *NOT* the reason why.
Quote from: froggie on April 27, 2017, 07:21:54 AM
Segments of I-95 may need widening (and I did an analysis of such (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19592.msg2203257#msg2203257) a couple months ago), but uncommon crashes like this are *NOT* the reason why.
While the southern half of I-95 is more rural than its northern counterpart, I think widening it would be a very worthy cause, especially for those who drive from anywhere between Boston and Washington to FL (and vice versa).
Quote from: Henry on April 27, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 27, 2017, 07:21:54 AM
Segments of I-95 may need widening (and I did an analysis of such (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19592.msg2203257#msg2203257) a couple months ago), but uncommon crashes like this are *NOT* the reason why.
While the southern half of I-95 is more rural than its northern counterpart, I think widening it would be a very worthy cause, especially for those who drive from anywhere between Boston and Washington to FL (and vice versa).
So, widen it for approximately 5% of the users of the highway based on what they're used to in their home states?
No matter how many lanes, the cops would shut them all down whether they really needed to or not. They do this all the time and its complete BS.
I have seen the Powhite Pkwy over the James River completely shut down on one side before... and this is a TEN lane segment...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 27, 2017, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: Henry on April 27, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 27, 2017, 07:21:54 AM
Segments of I-95 may need widening (and I did an analysis of such (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19592.msg2203257#msg2203257) a couple months ago), but uncommon crashes like this are *NOT* the reason why.
While the southern half of I-95 is more rural than its northern counterpart, I think widening it would be a very worthy cause, especially for those who drive from anywhere between Boston and Washington to FL (and vice versa).
So, widen it for approximately 5% of the users of the highway based on what they're used to in their home states?
This comprises a large portion of the reason that NC has been prioritizing new regional Interstate corridors rather than putting effort into a capacity enhancement of I-95. The perception that I-95, like US 301 before it, functions primarily for the benefit of inter-state commercial/"snowbird" traffic rather than a local server; as long as that perception persists within both public & private circles of influence, 95 will likely remain in its present condition.
Quote from: Brian556 on April 27, 2017, 05:09:20 PM
No matter how many lanes, the cops would shut them all down whether they really needed to or not. They do this all the time and its complete BS.
I will say NJ does a pretty good job at keeping highways open. Listening to a traffic report for PA and NJ at the same time, PA will close the roads for things like vehicle fires, while NJ keeps traffic running, even if it's on or off the paved shoulder. Heading to work one cold winter morning, a fatal occurred on the highway where a car came from the SB lanes, cross over the wide grassy median, and hit a car on the NB lanes. The police had traffic going down into the median and back up again to get around the scene; doable because of how frozen the median dirt/grass was. It wasn't a fast trip by far, but at least traffic was getting by.
Quote from Jeffand Nicole:
QuoteI will say NJ does a pretty good job at keeping highways open. Listening to a traffic report for PA and NJ at the same time, PA will close the roads for things like vehicle fires, while NJ keeps traffic running, even if it's on or off the paved shoulder. Heading to work one cold winter morning, a fatal occurred on the highway where a car came from the SB lanes, cross over the wide grassy median, and hit a car on the NB lanes. The police had traffic going down into the median and back up again to get around the scene; doable because of how frozen the median dirt/grass was. It wasn't a fast trip by far, but at least traffic was getting by.
Consider yourself lucky to live in an area with reasonable law enforcement.
Once, somebody ran off the road and struck an excavator in a field 75 feet off the road. Cops shut down the road even though the accident was 75 ft off the road, and the driver was already dead. They did traffic control extremely half assed, only tiny cones at either end of the road, no cop cars st the point of closure.
Also, the other day, some idiot tried to run across the freeway at night and was hit. His body was found wedged between 2 concrete walls in the median hours later. Cops shut down the interstate for hours, screwing over hundreds of drivers unnecessarily.
I'm just tired of the cops attitude being "fuck everybody, we own the road"
They need to remember that the tax paying public owns the road, not them.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 28, 2017, 06:15:50 AM
Quote from: Brian556 on April 27, 2017, 05:09:20 PM
No matter how many lanes, the cops would shut them all down whether they really needed to or not. They do this all the time and its complete BS.
I will say NJ does a pretty good job at keeping highways open. Listening to a traffic report for PA and NJ at the same time, PA will close the roads for things like vehicle fires, while NJ keeps traffic running, even if it's on or off the paved shoulder. Heading to work one cold winter morning, a fatal occurred on the highway where a car came from the SB lanes, cross over the wide grassy median, and hit a car on the NB lanes. The police had traffic going down into the median and back up again to get around the scene; doable because of how frozen the median dirt/grass was. It wasn't a fast trip by far, but at least traffic was getting by.
Then again, in my area we also seem to keep highways open. About a week ago, I had to go up to Carlisle to meet a psychologist, and heading home, there was an accident. Four cars, two flipped upside down, other two crashed into each other in the NB lanes. Now, the accident happened only minutes ago (no police/ambulance present yet, but people left their cars in order to help whoever survived by parking in the median), and the NB lanes suffered a bottleneck, but the SB lanes were kept open. It took us about 10 minutes to clear the congestion and scene of the accident.
Also, how does a car set on fire? Do people really smoke inside their cars? I can understand if it's an engine issue (in which case they should've gone to a mechanic), but smoking on top of flammable seats?
Quote from: sparker on April 28, 2017, 05:22:06 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 27, 2017, 01:07:50 PM
Quote from: Henry on April 27, 2017, 10:03:48 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 27, 2017, 07:21:54 AM
Segments of I-95 may need widening (and I did an analysis of such (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19592.msg2203257#msg2203257) a couple months ago), but uncommon crashes like this are *NOT* the reason why.
While the southern half of I-95 is more rural than its northern counterpart, I think widening it would be a very worthy cause, especially for those who drive from anywhere between Boston and Washington to FL (and vice versa).
So, widen it for approximately 5% of the users of the highway based on what they're used to in their home states?
This comprises a large portion of the reason that NC has been prioritizing new regional Interstate corridors rather than putting effort into a capacity enhancement of I-95. The perception that I-95, like US 301 before it, functions primarily for the benefit of inter-state commercial/"snowbird" traffic rather than a local server; as long as that perception persists within both public & private circles of influence, 95 will likely remain in its present condition.
I wouldn't even call I-95 NC's most important Interstate. That honor probably goes to I-85, since I-85 serves most of the urban areas of NC.
Quote from: noelbotevera on April 28, 2017, 10:51:38 PM
Also, how does a car set on fire? Do people really smoke inside their cars? I can understand if it's an engine issue (in which case they should've gone to a mechanic), but smoking on top of flammable seats?
Of course they smoke inside their vehicles all the time. Then they flick the ashes and butt out the window. Not only can a mis-flick fly back into their car into the back seat, but it can hit another vehicle as well.
Mechanical is probably the most frequent type of fire though. Saw a decent one a few weeks ago where you couldn't even really tell it was a car until you were on top of it! (295...this was one where the shoulder at least remained open while they put out the fire)
Quote from: Brian556 on April 28, 2017, 10:36:31 PM
Quote from Jeffand Nicole:
QuoteI will say NJ does a pretty good job at keeping highways open. Listening to a traffic report for PA and NJ at the same time, PA will close the roads for things like vehicle fires, while NJ keeps traffic running, even if it's on or off the paved shoulder. Heading to work one cold winter morning, a fatal occurred on the highway where a car came from the SB lanes, cross over the wide grassy median, and hit a car on the NB lanes. The police had traffic going down into the median and back up again to get around the scene; doable because of how frozen the median dirt/grass was. It wasn't a fast trip by far, but at least traffic was getting by.
Consider yourself lucky to live in an area with reasonable law enforcement.
Once, somebody ran off the road and struck an excavator in a field 75 feet off the road. Cops shut down the road even though the accident was 75 ft off the road, and the driver was already dead. They did traffic control extremely half assed, only tiny cones at either end of the road, no cop cars st the point of closure.
Also, the other day, some idiot tried to run across the freeway at night and was hit. His body was found wedged between 2 concrete walls in the median hours later. Cops shut down the interstate for hours, screwing over hundreds of drivers unnecessarily.
I'm just tired of the cops attitude being "fuck everybody, we own the road"
They need to remember that the tax paying public owns the road, not them.
During a snowstorm a few years back, one of our DOT plow vehicles (from the DOT yard I work at) was smashed into by a tractor trailer. The 3 travel lanes were closed with the tractor trailer across all 3 lanes...but as you see in the video, the shoulder remained open.
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/breaking/Salt-Truck-Crash-Paulsboro-289412241.html
They probably considered that it was safe to route traffic onto the shoulder. The on scene commander (who's usually an EMT or 1st responder with training in scene management) probably made that call. But if the OSC deems it unsafe (whether to traffic or to emergency responders) to keep traffic moving through the scene, they have the right and the duty to shut down the highway.
I've seen it once on the net and I'll have to look for it again, but NJDOT had a whole book on incident scenes and what should be done based on the situation. It is mentioned that keeping the road open is a high priority if everyone can safely manage the incident otherwise. (In other words, don't close the highway just because some guy has a powertrip.
Quote from: froggie on April 29, 2017, 10:42:21 AM
They probably considered that it was safe to route traffic onto the shoulder. The on scene commander (who's usually an EMT or 1st responder with training in scene management) probably made that call. But if the OSC deems it unsafe (whether to traffic or to emergency responders) to keep traffic moving through the scene, they have the right and the duty to shut down the highway.
Yes, but it may be about "is it possible to open something? - then open it!" vs "lets keep it closed - just in case".
My impression is that at least in some cases they close the road not because it is unavoidable, but because they don't really care.
The hours on end road closures are usually horrific accident scenes.
Or semi trucks that lose their load.. Its comical when its something like adult toys strewn across a highway.
Or when a bridge or roadway is damaged
Worst i experienced was a log truck that lost load at the 10/95 merger near downtown Jacksonville in the morning rush hour about 15 years ago. It made my 10 minute commute 2 hours. Everyone was late, sadly a man who worked there had said logs fall on his company car and kill him. Being late didnt seem that bad
LGMS428
US 301 is already a built in detour.
Here's one of NJDOT's Incident Guideline manuals. It frequently mentions the needs of emergency responders, along with the needs to keep traffic moving. Section 7 is specifically devoted to traffic control: http://cait.rutgers.edu/system/files/u10/way_Incident_Traffic_Safety_Guidelines_Final.pdf
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 03, 2017, 08:42:05 AM
Here's one of NJDOT's Incident Guideline manuals. It frequently mentions the needs of emergency responders, along with the needs to keep traffic moving. Section 7 is specifically devoted to traffic control: http://cait.rutgers.edu/system/files/u10/way_Incident_Traffic_Safety_Guidelines_Final.pdf
Maybe I am blind.. but I don't see the message. I can see one phrase which can be interpreted as encouragement to sort things out, but that is it.
Not limited to the below, all of the following touch on keeping traffic flowing. Note, at no time does it say "Just close the entire highway because you feel like it", which is the point of the sub-thread going on here...
Quote
1 INTRODUCTION
...Additionally, it provides maximum protection and safety for all emergency responders operating at limited access highway incidents. These guidelines also identify the need to provide mobility for the motoring public...
Quote6.1 Standard practice will be to position emergency response vehicles in such a manner that best protects the incident space and passing motorists.
Quote6.5 Emergency responders should always be aware of their visibility to oncoming traffic and take measures to move the traffic incident as far off the traveled roadway as possible or to provide for appropriate warning. Emergency vehicles should be safe-positioned in such a manner as to optimize traffic flow through the incident scene. All subsequent arriving emergency vehicles should be positioned as to not interfere with the established temporary traffic flow.
Quote6.8 Unit operators shall cancel any warning lights which impair the vision of approaching traffic (i.e., headlights, spotlights, clear warning lights).
Quote7.8 If State Police arrive on scene and determine that a previously closed lane must be opened to traffic, State Police will order lanes reopened in consultation with the fire department and/or EMS at the scene.
Quote7.10 The closing of additional lanes not affected by the accident, to include on and off ramps, shall require the approval of the State Police, transportation, and highway authorities.
Quote8.7 Once the incident has been stabilized and traffic control measures are in place, consideration should be given to time of day, traffic concerns, and traffic back-ups, etc. Based on these factors, when conditions permit, consideration should be given to reopening a blocked traffic lane to improve the flow of traffic.
Quote9.1 Demobilization of the incident must be managed with the same aggressiveness as initial actions. Apparatus and equipment should be removed from the highway promptly to reduce exposure to moving traffic and minimize traffic congestion.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 03, 2017, 10:43:01 AM
Not limited to the below, all of the following touch on keeping traffic flowing. Note, at no time does it say "Just close the entire highway because you feel like it", which is the point of the sub-thread going on here...
Quote
1 INTRODUCTION
...Additionally, it provides maximum protection and safety for all emergency responders operating at limited access highway incidents. These guidelines also identify the need to provide mobility for the motoring public...
Quote6.1 Standard practice will be to position emergency response vehicles in such a manner that best protects the incident space and passing motorists.
Quote6.5 Emergency responders should always be aware of their visibility to oncoming traffic and take measures to move the traffic incident as far off the traveled roadway as possible or to provide for appropriate warning. Emergency vehicles should be safe-positioned in such a manner as to optimize traffic flow through the incident scene. All subsequent arriving emergency vehicles should be positioned as to not interfere with the established temporary traffic flow.
Quote6.8 Unit operators shall cancel any warning lights which impair the vision of approaching traffic (i.e., headlights, spotlights, clear warning lights).
Quote7.8 If State Police arrive on scene and determine that a previously closed lane must be opened to traffic, State Police will order lanes reopened in consultation with the fire department and/or EMS at the scene.
Quote7.10 The closing of additional lanes not affected by the accident, to include on and off ramps, shall require the approval of the State Police, transportation, and highway authorities.
Quote8.7 Once the incident has been stabilized and traffic control measures are in place, consideration should be given to time of day, traffic concerns, and traffic back-ups, etc. Based on these factors, when conditions permit, consideration should be given to reopening a blocked traffic lane to improve the flow of traffic.
Quote9.1 Demobilization of the incident must be managed with the same aggressiveness as initial actions. Apparatus and equipment should be removed from the highway promptly to reduce exposure to moving traffic and minimize traffic congestion.
I would say this all is still a very generic "just be good" wording. Some of that doesn't even cover lane closure decisions...
And to put things in perspective... last year we had 2 fatal accidents on the highway between area namesake city and major suburb cluster. Only other road to bypass highway is a state road with bunch of traffic lights - nowhere close to handling 100k+ traffic on a highway.
In both cases one direction of highway was closed for 4 hours. Outside of commute hours - but yet daytime with major traffic backups, probably thousands vehicles.
It wasn't the case of spilled load or such - looking at the pictures, highway could be cleaned up pretty fast. But state police insisted they need all 3 lanes + all shoulders for evidence collection.
I don't see anything in posted text that would affect such a situation.... It was an action of state troopers taken with full understanding of consequences.
Well, the report is titled a 'Guideline' for a reason. Situations are different. And maybe you are trying to find too-specific wording when it comes to lane closure decisions, as I certainly highlighted them. I mean, Section 7.10 - does it really get any clearer than that?
All I can say is, based on personal experience driving the highways down here on a daily basis, you see the actual results of these guidelines: Lanes that aren't impacted remain open; the police, fire and EMS do a pretty good job of keeping out of the way. Vehicles that can be moved off the road are moved off the road. Lanes truly are kept open.
Fatals are a very minor part of the total accidents - generally, fewer than 2 per day statewide. I think I've driven past 2 in my nearly 19 years of commuting to/from work here in the state. And note..."driven past two". One was during a cold winter; a car crossed from the SB to NB lanes, hitting and killing someone. Traffic on the NB side was lead into the frozen median dirt to get around the scene. Certainly a major delay. but traffic kept moving. In your case you cited, maybe there were reasons for keeping the road closed. It would be impossible to know, and certainly depends on the circumstances. I've seen highways and intersections closed as well.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 03, 2017, 03:15:08 PM
Well, the report is titled a 'Guideline' for a reason. Situations are different. And maybe you are trying to find too-specific wording when it comes to lane closure decisions, as I certainly highlighted them. I mean, Section 7.10 - does it really get any clearer than that?
All I can say is, based on personal experience driving the highways down here on a daily basis, you see the actual results of these guidelines: Lanes that aren't impacted remain open; the police, fire and EMS do a pretty good job of keeping out of the way. Vehicles that can be moved off the road are moved off the road. Lanes truly are kept open.
Fatals are a very minor part of the total accidents - generally, fewer than 2 per day statewide. I think I've driven past 2 in my nearly 19 years of commuting to/from work here in the state. And note..."driven past two". One was during a cold winter; a car crossed from the SB to NB lanes, hitting and killing someone. Traffic on the NB side was lead into the frozen median dirt to get around the scene. Certainly a major delay. but traffic kept moving. In your case you cited, maybe there were reasons for keeping the road closed. It would be impossible to know, and certainly depends on the circumstances. I've seen highways and intersections closed as well.
I don't doubt that different agencies handle situations in a different way. It probably boils down to some agency culture... The way I read the document you cite, it is not much more than very generic checklist. Close if needed. Consult others if extended closing. Open when possible... It is just about how this is actually implemented, what "possible" or "needed" actually means.
I assume there is much more to it in training, past experience, how the supervisor of today's supervisor did it 10 years ago or whatever you call it.