On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/ (http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/)
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2017, 12:17:51 AM
On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/ (http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/)
Could this be built? Yes, IMO it could (I am not a bridge engineer).
But how to pay for it?
Since nearly all crossings of the Delaware River and Delaware Bay are toll crossings pretty far upstream, this would need to be a DRBA toll crossing (besides, I doubt that DelDOT and NJDOT have the billions of dollars that a "free" crossing would require laying around).
Is there enough demand in the form of toll-paying traffic to make such a crossing work financially? Keep in mind that a long sea crossing like this will need a lot of maintenance and operations personnel from day one and for as long as it serves traffic, and the bondholders expect to be paid-back.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 06, 2017, 10:36:05 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2017, 12:17:51 AM
On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/ (http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/)
Could this be built? Yes, IMO it could (I am not a bridge engineer).
But how to pay for it?
Since nearly all crossings of the Delaware River and Delaware Bay are toll crossings pretty far upstream, this would need to be a DRBA toll crossing (besides, I doubt that DelDOT and NJDOT have the billions of dollars that a "free" crossing would require laying around).
Is there enough demand in the form of toll-paying traffic to make such a crossing work financially? Keep in mind that a long sea crossing like this will need a lot of maintenance and operations personnel from day one and for as long as it serves traffic, and the bondholders expect to be paid-back.
Yes, from todays traffic & more families a link would seem necessary I-95 thru the tristate is very bad. Especially thru delco, Chester, & Pa the local traffic knows the roads but for an interstate highway it is bad & cannot handle the daily volumes of today. In 10-15 years it will be jampacked. Im also sure that new jersey, maryland & delaware would participate in building a tunnel bridge as it is a major project & also connects the bottom half of the delmarva which could create sprawl
Quote from: Tonytone on May 06, 2017, 10:46:11 PM
Im also sure that new jersey, maryland & delaware would participate in building a tunnel bridge as it is a major project & also connects the bottom half of the delmarva which could create sprawl
I disagree regarding Maryland. I doubt seriously that Maryland would be interested in financially supporting this (and note that I have lived in Maryland for nearly all of my life but I do not speak for the state).
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 01:26:07 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 06, 2017, 10:46:11 PM
Im also sure that new jersey, maryland & delaware would participate in building a tunnel bridge as it is a major project & also connects the bottom half of the delmarva which could create sprawl
I disagree regarding Maryland. I doubt seriously that Maryland would be interested in financially supporting this (and note that have lived in Maryland for nearly all of my life but I do not speak for the state).
Well in that case statistics will have to make that project happen. the ferry service I heard they have is doing good, so they could be a start.
Not enough through-traffic along the I-95 corridor that could or would divert down to make such a project financially viable. Furthermore, except at the 95/295/495 junction proper, I don't think the existing I-95 corridor between Baltimore and the NJ Turnpike is as bad as some claim.
Also, why isn't this thread in the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast subforums?
While I do think the I-95 corridor between NJ and DC is heavy and congested enough on a normal basis (especially weekends...even last weekend, a slow, nothing-going-on late April Sunday had traffic heavily jammed from 695 to 24 in Maryland, then upstream approaching the $8 tolls, then again thru much of Delaware) to warrant a long bypass for the 95 corridor, it's simply not going to happen.
The biggest logjams in the system currently, and results in the above, is the 3 lane-per-direction section of I-95 in Maryland, and the 2 lane ramp to I-295 in Delaware to the NJ Turnpike. The I-95/PA Tpk connection will help relieve some of the latter...but Maryland's gonna be tight for some time.
When you think about the entire corridor and the 3di counterparts, you have:
In North Jersey, 6 or 7 lanes per direction (NJ Tpk Dual-Dual).
In the South Jersey/PA area, 7 - 10 lanes per direction (95 in PA: 3 or 4 lanes, In NJ: I-295, 2 - 3 lanes, NJ Tpk, 2 - 3 lanes).
In the South Jersey/DE area, 9 lanes per direction (DE: I-95, 2 lanes, I-495, 3 lanes, NJ: I-295, 2 lanes, NJ Tpk: 2 lanes).
Delaware from I-295 to MD, 4 - 5 lanes.
Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.
Maryland wouldn't pay for the bridge-tunnel itself. But they would need to pay for their portion of the highway that get too and from such a connector above.
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 11:13:31 AM
Also, why isn't this thread in the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast subforums?
It covers two regions. Frankly, it belongs in the Fictional Highway forum, because it's never going to be built.
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 11:13:31 AM
Not enough through-traffic along the I-95 corridor that could or would divert down to make such a project financially viable. Furthermore, except at the 95/295/495 junction proper, I don't think the existing I-95 corridor between Baltimore and the NJ Turnpike is as bad as some claim.
I-95 in Maryland (especially approaching the lane drop at MD-24 in Harford County) suffers from plenty of recurring congestion. Regarding the congestion at the I-95/I-295/I-495/DEL-141 interchange near Farnhurst, Delaware, that will presumably get better when the project there (DelDOT or DRBA or both?) is complete, and perhaps even more when the Pennsylvania Turnpike's project at Bristol, Pennsylvania to complete I-95 is done, possibly in 2018.
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 11:13:31 AM
Also, why isn't this thread in the Mid-Atlantic or Northeast subforums?
Good question.
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 07, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.
I suspect that many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
U.S. 301 is indeed a good bailout route, and will get better when the new tolled section is open to traffic. If U.S. 301 between Bowling Green, Va. and Bowie, Md. were to be improved, then it really starts to become attractive for "thru" movements.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 01:38:56 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
U.S. 301 is indeed a good bailout route, and will get better when the new tolled section is open to traffic. If U.S. 301 between Bowling Green, Va. and Bowie, Md. were to be improved, then it really starts to become attractive for "thru" movements.
U.S 301 shoulda been built years ago, its been in planning since the 70's but to think of that as a relief route is true to an extent. Dont forget that once you reach the biddles toll plaza & up to I-495 thats where all the traffic is. Traffic will get presumably worse if they dont widen the lanes of De-1 between tybouts corner & the I-95-De-1 interchange. Traffic is terrible everyday to a stop because of the 4 lane highway. I should have took a picture to show how bas traffic is & this is southbound DE-1 passing the mall & SR-273 NB was moving freely.
iPhone
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
I-95 to I-295 ?
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. :nod:
Not the last one, that's for sure. In no small part because there's no good way to get from I-95 to any such crossing...not without spending several more billions on top of the crossing cost in order to build such a connection. That's money that would be far better spent improving existing corridors.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible. When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
That is my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. :nod:
I-95 does not run
anyplace near the south end of the Garden State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible. When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
That is my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. :nod:
I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.
Most likely a new route would be created to connect to a newly built bridge. My point is thru traffic should be able to go thru that area roadways already exist & living in Ocean City Md & not being able to get to New Jersey Shore-points, New England, etc cannot be accesses without going thru Delaware, Pa, New Jersey. I understand the point to have traffic go thru a specific place aswell, but its the 21st Century.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytonebut its the 21st Century.
Excactly. Which means that, in this era of tight transportation budgets and high construction costs, the economics of a given road project need to be seriously thought out. I'm sorry, but your idea for a cross-Delaware Bay bridge just doesn't cut it.
I would love this to be built, but it is never going to happen and I think this belongs in fictional highways anyway.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 07, 2017, 05:41:19 PM
I would love this to be built, but it is never going to happen and I think this belongs in fictional highways anyway.
Thanks roadgeek they already said that
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
I-95 to I-295 ?
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. :nod:
Let's say all these routes exist.
95 to the fantasy Delaware Bay crossing to the GSP would be the LONGEST route possible. And in terms of delays, you may not be avoiding a lot, being the GSP is often congested. It was just widened a bit for a long stretch, but that's to handle current day volume, not fantasy 95 bypass volume. It could definitely be an alternate route, but in the same sense that taking 95 to 695 to 83 to 81 to 78 is today to bypass much of the Baltimore - NYC corridor.
I-95 doesn't go all the way up now anyway. But when it does, it won't be the fastest route due to existing congestion on 95 in PA without that thru traffic. Not to mention their insistence on a 55 mph limit.
I-95 to I-295 doesn't get you to NYC, and never will.
As CP mentioned, 95 to 295 to the NJ Turnpike is the most realistic route now, and will continue to be the shortest, fastest route in the future.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 04:00:41 PM
...My point is thru traffic should be able to go thru that area roadways already exist & living in Ocean City Md & not being able to get to New Jersey Shore-points, New England, etc cannot be accesses without going thru Delaware, Pa, New Jersey. I understand the point to have traffic go thru a specific place aswell, but its the 21st Century.
To get to points north, OCMD traffic would have to go thru Delaware anyway. And they can choose the Cape May-Lewis Ferry, or DE 1, eventually to 295 and into NJ. They don't have to enter PA now or in the future.
But we can also just start naming every city, town and subdivision in America if we're going to start to justify why new roads should be built everywhere.
Busted quotes.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 07, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.
I suspect that many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.
Or totally shunpike it and take US 1. :)
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 10:06:32 PM
I understand that in the sense of someone coming up from Middletown De or baltimore. But what about coming from Lewes Delaware or Florida. you would want to stay on a Through way with the least amount of getting off an exit to get on another highway. Also the GSP (With some upgrades.) would most likely be able to handle a 70 Mph speedlimit cutting the time that it would take to get to NY.
Using the link you provided in your opening comment, anyone coming from Lewes and other Delaware Beach Points would be better served by a bridge replacing the Cape-May Lewis Ferry. You already have the access on the NJ side...not complete highway access, although building 4 miles of roadway is a heckuva lot easier than 40 miles of roadway.
If you're coming from Florida, noting that extremely few people are driving such a distance, and wanting to stay on a thru-route, you would stay on 95 anyway! And if NJ would actually allow a 70 mph limit, the most likely candidate for such a limit is the NJ Turnpike anyway.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 07, 2017, 11:01:28 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 07, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.
I suspect that many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.
Or totally shunpike it and take US 1. :)
Rt. 40 is an extremely popular bailout route. My non-road loving uncle, when he has to travel between VA and NJ around a holiday, will often take that. He'll say it is crowded, but it moves a bit better than 95 around the holidays.
How deep is the Delaware Bay? Would a bridge or bridge-tunnel even be able to go there?
Quote from: plain on May 08, 2017, 08:48:01 AM
How deep is the Delaware Bay? Would a bridge or bridge-tunnel even be able to go there?
Well, anything's possible. Just pony up the money! :-)
I don't think it's any deeper than the Chesapeake, with similar ocean/bay floor features.
If there's no tunnel, a bridge will have to have at least a 180' minimum clearance over the main navigation channel as that's about what the Delaware Memorial Bridge provides. No doubt there will need to be a few other span sections with lesser clearances so that all boats over 12' or whatever don't have to go to one access point.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.
if you are coming from DC or points SW, you've got US 301 as a freeway already, so you "only" need a freeway from there to Lewes, DE, or wherever your bridge is going to be. Also, we live in South Jersey, right on the Turnpike and we've taken I-83 to US 30 to US 222 to I-76 from Baltimore at times when I-95 and US 40 and US 1 were hopelessly jammed in MD. That's not any less of a detour than whatever the route to the GSP to the Atlantic City Expressway would be.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 08, 2017, 04:37:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 08, 2017, 08:40:22 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 10:06:32 PM
I understand that in the sense of someone coming up from Middletown De or baltimore. But what about coming from Lewes Delaware or Florida. you would want to stay on a Through way with the least amount of getting off an exit to get on another highway. Also the GSP (With some upgrades.) would most likely be able to handle a 70 Mph speedlimit cutting the time that it would take to get to NY.
Using the link you provided in your opening comment, anyone coming from Lewes and other Delaware Beach Points would be better served by a bridge replacing the Cape-May Lewis Ferry. You already have the access on the NJ side...not complete highway access, although building 4 miles of roadway is a heckuva lot easier than 40 miles of roadway.
Im talking about a crossing from Lewes- Cape May. Also that crossing would connect to GSP, and De-1 or R-9 could be extended or converted into limited access highways. The other crossing is less needed but would be a good connection.
If you're coming from Florida, noting that extremely few people are driving such a distance, and wanting to stay on a thru-route, you would stay on 95 anyway! And if NJ would actually allow a 70 mph limit, the most likely candidate for such a limit is the NJ Turnpike anyway.
Mind you that it doesn't have to just be from Florida, anyone on the east coast below delaware would have an easier travel continuing up Jerseys coast. & yes NJTP should be 70MPH but then how will they get money for people speeding.
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 07, 2017, 11:01:28 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 01:37:18 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 07, 2017, 12:10:47 PM
Once you get to Maryland, it's 3 lanes per direction, with no 3 di counterpart, until you're south of Belair.
I suspect that many members of this forum will bail-out to U.S. 40 (or even MD-7!), which at least spare us some of interminable delays on the JFK Highway part of I-95 in Maryland.
Or totally shunpike it and take US 1. :)
Rt. 40 is an extremely popular bailout route. My non-road loving uncle, when he has to travel between VA and NJ around a holiday, will often take that. He'll say it is crowded, but it moves a bit better than 95 around the holidays.
iPhone
Tonytone? Is there any point to these quotes?
Quote from: bzakharinif you are coming from DC or points SW, you've got US 301 as a freeway already, so you "only" need a freeway from there to Lewes, DE, or wherever your bridge is going to be that chokepoint at the Bay Bridge, and "only" need about 60 miles of freeway to connect from 50 to Lewes.
FTFY, especially considering that Lewes sits south of where 301 splits off 50.
Another issue with this with truck transportation, with trucks banned from the Parkway north of exit 105, which creates a lot of non ideal cutting back across NJ on 195 or Route 18 to the turnpike to head north.
I'll pass on this idea. I commute the Parkway every day in Ocean/Monmouth Counties and I don't need any extra through traffic than the relatively small amount that the ferry currently supports. As much as I like the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel and wouldn't be a road nut without having some interest in something similar here, I'm happy to keep my old vacation spot Cape May the effective dead-end that it is.
Quote from: froggie on May 08, 2017, 05:55:05 PM
Quote from: bzakharinif you are coming from DC or points SW, you've got US 301 as a freeway already, so you "only" need a freeway from there to Lewes, DE, or wherever your bridge is going to be that chokepoint at the Bay Bridge, and "only" need about 60 miles of freeway to connect from 50 to Lewes.
FTFY, especially considering that Lewes sits south of where 301 splits off 50.
Yeah, I meant 50. And there is a reason I put "only" in quotes. But if that road existed, and barring traffic issues, you'd have a viable route from DC to NYC.
Did not we say once in fictional highways to have I-70 go further east than Baltimore using I-695, I-97 (to free that good number) and then across the Bay Bridge on US 50 to follow MD-DE 404? Sounds a lot like this here.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible. When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
That is my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. :nod:
I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.
Actually after doing some numbers, a person coming from OCMD(or Florida) going to NYC using a bridge that crossed From Lewes-Cap May, would be 4 Hours and 42 minutes (the time may be less or more but with speed including the time to get there can go down). Now you could take the other way but it would require going thru Delaware, and some tolls, then Philly and some traffic, and then Uncompleted I-95 , and more traffic. The fact is that this bridge is needed and will save time and money. heres a link to the map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.9290341,-75.385437/40.4803814,-74.0039062/@39.30839,-74.3310639,8z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0
It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 15, 2017, 02:05:27 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible. When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
That is my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. :nod:
I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.
Actually after doing some numbers, a person coming from OCMD(or Florida) going to NYC using a bridge that crossed From Lewes-Cap May, would be 4 Hours and 42 minutes (the time may be less or more but with speed including the time to get there can go down). Now you could take the other way but it would require going thru Delaware, and some tolls, then Philly and some traffic, and then Uncompleted I-95 , and more traffic. The fact is that this bridge is needed and will save time and money. heres a link to the map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.9290341,-75.385437/40.4803814,-74.0039062/@39.30839,-74.3310639,8z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0
You complain that the longer route goes thru Philly...then you post a route that DOESN'T GO THRU PHILLY. Actually, your route starts in Chincoteague Island, VA and ends in Sandy Hook, NJ, so I really don't have any idea what the point of this route was anyway, being that you keep talking about OCMD and NYC.
And I'm not sure if you think the Parkway is some unused highway in NJ, but it is often jammed with traffic, both for work and shore.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2017, 12:17:51 AM
On Phillyroads.com I found a page talking about the crossings from Cape May-Lewis and Sea Breeze-Woodland Beach. Now I understand that the areas where highways would have to be formed are rural, but the potential the surrounding land has, and more access freeing up I-95 traffic and also creating roads. http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/ (http://www.phillyroads.com/crossings/delaware-bay/)
It would run from Cape May, NJ to Cape Henlopen, DE. I have never seen a formal planning study document, although the bridge has been discussed for over 40 years.
I got some charts of Delaware Bay years ago, and mapped out the likely route that a bridge would take. I placed the east abutment about a mile north of West Cape May. That seemed to be one of the less inhabited areas around Cape May. Bridges normally cross a shipping channel at a right angle, so my design went about 7 miles out to the channel (I believe it is called Brandywine Range), crossed on a suspension bridge or cable-stayed bridge with about 180 feet of vertical clearance, then curved about 30 degrees south, and made landfall nears Lewes, DE, near Cape Henlopen. The bridge would be about 16 miles long. Four lanes would be the appropriate width. Mostly low-level trestles like the CBBT. Water depths generally in the 20 to 70 feet range. The connecting roadway would be a four-lane freeway, and would link the bridge to the Garden State Parkway, and to US 13 in southern Delaware, via a new road parallel to US 9.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 15, 2017, 06:27:09 AM
It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
I dont think the sprawl would happen. Monmouth and northern Ocean Counties arealready sprawl. The Pinelands prevents sprawl in southern Ocean, Atlantic and Cape May... Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
LGMS428
Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 15, 2017, 06:27:09 AM
It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
I dont think the sprawl would happen. Monmouth and northern Ocean Counties arealready sprawl. The Pinelands prevents sprawl in southern Ocean, Atlantic and Cape May... Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
LGMS428
You haven't been in Atlantic or Cape May Counties lately, have you?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 15, 2017, 08:11:05 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 15, 2017, 02:05:27 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 07, 2017, 03:44:30 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Quote from: froggie on May 07, 2017, 01:36:58 PM
If Maryland is the chokepoint (as two of you have now suggested), that would speak far more to US 301 improvements (and a Bay Bridge 3rd span) than it would to a minimum-12-mile Delaware Bay water crossing plus approach roadways. Which completely defeats the OP's purpose for this thread.
If you were going to Ny would you rather take,
I-95 all the way up?
Not currently possible. When it becomes possible it will not be my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 to I-295 ?
Requires the use of I-195 between I-295 and I-95 (N.J. Turnpike) or some other east-west road that links both, such as 541 (Turnpike Exit 5) or NJ-73 (Turnpike Exit 4).
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
I-95 TO I-295 TO NJTP ?
That is my preferred route.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 07, 2017, 02:11:38 PM
Or I-95 to the Delaware bay crossing which then would turn into the Garden state Parkway. :nod:
I-95 does not run anyplace near the south end of the Garden State Parkway in Cape May County, N.J. or near a possible Delaware landing (Lewes?) of a crossing of the Delaware Bay. To get there from most places in Maryland (such as the Baltimore region or the Washington suburbs in Maryland or Virginia) would require a significant detour via roads like MD/DEL-404, except for traffic wanting to reach the Jersey Shore from Delaware and points south and west of Delaware.
Actually after doing some numbers, a person coming from OCMD(or Florida) going to NYC using a bridge that crossed From Lewes-Cap May, would be 4 Hours and 42 minutes (the time may be less or more but with speed including the time to get there can go down). Now you could take the other way but it would require going thru Delaware, and some tolls, then Philly and some traffic, and then Uncompleted I-95 , and more traffic. The fact is that this bridge is needed and will save time and money. heres a link to the map https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.9290341,-75.385437/40.4803814,-74.0039062/@39.30839,-74.3310639,8z/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0
You complain that the longer route goes thru Philly...then you post a route that DOESN'T GO THRU PHILLY. Actually, your route starts in Chincoteague Island, VA and ends in Sandy Hook, NJ, so I really don't have any idea what the point of this route was anyway, being that you keep talking about OCMD and NYC.
And I'm not sure if you think the Parkway is some unused highway in NJ, but it is often jammed with traffic, both for work and shore.
The route would not show crossing Delaware Bay, so I had to use areas of interest. Thus why i used areas close to where like by NY and Cape May. If they do research and have numbers this route will most likely prove better then I-95 :-| . The parkway could most likely
Handle the traffic, with some improvements.
Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 15, 2017, 06:27:09 AM
It will also increase traffic on the Garden State Parkway and open up more sprawl in South Jersey.
I dont think the sprawl would happen. Monmouth and northern Ocean Counties arealready sprawl. The Pinelands prevents sprawl in southern Ocean, Atlantic and Cape May... Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
LGMS428
So a commute from Philly to Ny or Philly to D.C, wouldn't be the same as a commute from Cape May to the places I named? People already drive from Philly to Ny or take a train Vice versa EVERYDAY. so I dont believe a "commute" will ever be the issue.
Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
I commute from the Philly area to the Atlantic City area every day. My former boss commutes from North Jersey (until next week when he's switching jobs). Of course vice versa is harder because there's more traffic, but in any case a hypothetical bridge is not facilitating more traffic from any of those areas, so I don't see how it will spur additional commuter-related development.
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 09:06:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
I commute from the Philly area to the Atlantic City area every day. My former boss commutes from North Jersey (until next week when he's switching jobs). Of course vice versa is harder because there's more traffic, but in any case a hypothetical bridge is not facilitating more traffic from any of those areas, so I don't see how it will spur additional commuter-related development.
I am sure there are quite a few who fdo mega commutes. But it is not a good way to live long term.
I grew up in northern Ocean County and people commuted to north Jersey, even to NYC. But it very taxing on body and soul
LGMS428
Leave Cape May as a dead end IMO. Just like Long Island being a dead end in two forks, leave all of the Cape that way. The ways around it are fine. Just maybe continue I-97 south of Annapolis to Richmond via US 301 that could take traffic off of I-95. With the new US 301 toll road and US 301 on the Eastern Shore being limited access motorists could use that along with an interstate corridor from Annapolis to Richmond as a good alternate not needed to upgrade the Delmarva and South Jersey to a full freeway corridor.
Quote from: jwolfer on May 16, 2017, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 09:06:22 AM
Quote from: jwolfer on May 15, 2017, 11:12:31 PM
Around AC there is some room but its too far from Philadelphia or north Jersey for everyday commutes
I commute from the Philly area to the Atlantic City area every day. My former boss commutes from North Jersey (until next week when he's switching jobs). Of course vice versa is harder because there's more traffic, but in any case a hypothetical bridge is not facilitating more traffic from any of those areas, so I don't see how it will spur additional commuter-related development.
I am sure there are quite a few who fdo mega commutes. But it is not a good way to live long term.
I grew up in northern Ocean County and people commuted to north Jersey, even to NYC. But it very taxing on body and soul
LGMS428
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.
The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.
I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.
Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.
Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.
The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.
I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.
Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.
Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.
The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.
I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.
Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.
Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.
That combined with the relatively low traffic volumes that might use such a bridge, and the fact that it would need to be designed to accomodate ships entering and leaving Delaware Bay, makes the idea not really worth it. (That, and I don't think the SJTA would like the idea as it'd take traffic off the Atlantic City Expressway, but they don't matter as much to me.)
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on May 16, 2017, 04:52:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.
The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.
I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.
Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.
Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.
That combined with the relatively low traffic volumes that might use such a bridge, and the fact that it would need to be designed to accomodate ships entering and leaving Delaware Bay, makes the idea not really worth it. (That, and I don't think the SJTA would like the idea as it'd take traffic off the Atlantic City Expressway, but they don't matter as much to me.)
Would depend on both states seeing the need. If one state alone then it would not be buildable.
If it would carry 8,000 to 10,000 or more vehicles per day then it would clearly be justifiable.
I wonder if any traffic projection study was ever performed?
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 05:10:48 PM
Quote from: WillWeaverRVA on May 16, 2017, 04:52:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on May 16, 2017, 11:44:59 AM
It's not that bad, one hour each way. Most of the people who work at the company live in the Philly area because there isn't really a big population center where the company is located (the owner/CEO *does* live there, however). Of course it helps that I get to work from home twice a week most of the time.
The Cape May / Lewes Ferry averages about 800 vehicles per day.
I wonder how much traffic would use a bay bridge there.
Each state would need to see this as a priority and then work to get it built.
Would both states see this bridge as a priority?
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.
That combined with the relatively low traffic volumes that might use such a bridge, and the fact that it would need to be designed to accomodate ships entering and leaving Delaware Bay, makes the idea not really worth it. (That, and I don't think the SJTA would like the idea as it'd take traffic off the Atlantic City Expressway, but they don't matter as much to me.)
Would depend on both states seeing the need. If one state alone then it would not be buildable.
If it would carry 8,000 to 10,000 or more vehicles per day then it would clearly be justifiable.
I wonder if any traffic projection study was ever performed?
The Bridge will get traffic just as any other bridge connecting two states. Mind you, these states are also major and are key in the northeast-MidAtlantic Region.
2 years ago, when this idea previously came to light on the forum, I posted this (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8812.msg2076824#msg2076824). It's just as valid now as it was then.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 17, 2017, 12:51:17 AM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 05:10:48 PM
Would depend on both states seeing the need. If one state alone then it would not be buildable.
If it would carry 8,000 to 10,000 or more vehicles per day then it would clearly be justifiable.
I wonder if any traffic projection study was ever performed?
The Bridge will get traffic just as any other bridge connecting two states. Mind you, these states are also major and are key in the northeast-MidAtlantic Region.
Plus it is a missing link in the East Coast north-south highway.
When the Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel was opened in 1964, it was said to have completed the last missing link in the East Coast north-south highway.
That is not really true, as Delaware Bay is a missing link. The Delaware Memorial Bridge is too far inland to be called an East Coast north-south highway; it is over 80 miles from the coast.
Quote from: froggie on May 17, 2017, 09:22:30 AM
2 years ago, when this idea previously came to light on the forum, I posted this (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8812.msg2076824#msg2076824). It's just as valid now as it was then.
The route I used when I mapped this out in the 1970s had most depths in the 20 to 40 foot range, and a couple miles of about 70 foot depth. Much like the CBBT route.
There is one main shipping channel, and I put a high-level bridge over that. The channel is Brandywine Range and it is about mid-way on the bridge route and the bridge is aligned to cross the channel at a 90-degree angle; that is why there is an about 40-degree dogleg in the bridge. That route also takes advantage of shallower water as compared to a direct line between the two capes. My route is 16 miles from shore to shore.
See chart --
http://pennways.com/Delaware_Bay_Bridge_XL_channel.jpg (http://pennways.com/Delaware_Bay_Bridge_XL_channel.jpg)
There are four hash marks just to the right of the curve, that is the high-level span.
The red line denotes the deep water shipping route.
Beltway: I'm curious about your base chart-last night I found a copy of a NOAA chart titled "Cape May to Fenwick Island", which says "37th Ed., June 27/92, number 12214, Loran-C Overprinted" in the lower left. My (shorter) version of the bridge was a bit east of yours, but still maintained the Coast Guard requirement of right angle crossing of the main shipping channel. The main difference in my chart (obviously not available in the 70's) is the amount of the Bay closest to Lewes that's between 100 and 150 feet deep. I should be somewhere with a working scanner in the next day or so.
Hopefully someone here knows the eastern limit of the DRBA's authority. If such a thing were to be built, I think it should be their baby, perhaps with some private support.
Your proposed DE access road paralleling US 9 past US 113 to US13 makes sense to me, but probably won't to the citizens of Sussex County. I believe there are only 4 instances of one road bridging another road in the county (all because a bridge was crossing something else-train tracks or a body of water-so it made some sense to also cross the parallel road), and no true interchanges, so this type of infrastructure would be unique to the rural (and touristy) LSD.
Quote from: davewiecking on May 17, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
Beltway: I'm curious about your base chart-last night I found a copy of a NOAA chart titled "Cape May to Fenwick Island", which says "37th Ed., June 27/92, number 12214, Loran-C Overprinted" in the lower left. My (shorter) version of the bridge was a bit east of yours, but still maintained the Coast Guard requirement of right angle crossing of the main shipping channel. The main difference in my chart (obviously not available in the 70's) is the amount of the Bay closest to Lewes that's between 100 and 150 feet deep. I should be somewhere with a working scanner in the next day or so.
Topographically there isn't a shipping channel in the area midway between the capes, it is a large area with water much deeper than the deepest draft ships.
It is hard to tell on that chart but it doesn't look like there is a marked channel either. Basically open sea.
Quote
Hopefully someone here knows the eastern limit of the DRBA's authority. If such a thing were to be built, I think it should be their baby, perhaps with some private support.
Your proposed DE access road paralleling US 9 past US 113 to US13 makes sense to me, but probably won't to the citizens of Sussex County. I believe there are only 4 instances of one road bridging another road in the county (all because a bridge was crossing something else-train tracks or a body of water-so it made some sense to also cross the parallel road), and no true interchanges, so this type of infrastructure would be unique to the rural (and touristy) LSD.
My route is definitely in Delaware Bay, so DRBA should handle it. The Delaware River & Bay Authority (DRBA) website says that they administer the current bridge as well as the ferry.
The approach highway in Delaware could take a different corridor, but I think my landing point for the bridge would be the most optimum.
Quote from: Beltway on May 17, 2017, 10:44:14 PM
Quote from: davewiecking on May 17, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
Beltway: I'm curious about your base chart-last night I found a copy of a NOAA chart titled "Cape May to Fenwick Island", which says "37th Ed., June 27/92, number 12214, Loran-C Overprinted" in the lower left. My (shorter) version of the bridge was a bit east of yours, but still maintained the Coast Guard requirement of right angle crossing of the main shipping channel. The main difference in my chart (obviously not available in the 70's) is the amount of the Bay closest to Lewes that's between 100 and 150 feet deep. I should be somewhere with a working scanner in the next day or so.
Topographically there isn't a shipping channel in the area midway between the capes, it is a large area with water much deeper than the deepest draft ships.
It is hard to tell on that chart but it doesn't look like there is a marked channel either. Basically open sea.
Quote
Hopefully someone here knows the eastern limit of the DRBA's authority. If such a thing were to be built, I think it should be their baby, perhaps with some private support.
Your proposed DE access road paralleling US 9 past US 113 to US13 makes sense to me, but probably won't to the citizens of Sussex County. I believe there are only 4 instances of one road bridging another road in the county (all because a bridge was crossing something else-train tracks or a body of water-so it made some sense to also cross the parallel road), and no true interchanges, so this type of infrastructure would be unique to the rural (and touristy) LSD.
My route is definitely in Delaware Bay, so DRBA should handle it. The Delaware River & Bay Authority (DRBA) website says that they administer the current bridge as well as the ferry.
The approach highway in Delaware could take a different corridor, but I think my landing point for the bridge would be the most optimum.
They could finish Delaware 1 by having an interchange for Rt-9, (which they could turn into a limited access road, just like Rt-273, Rt-4 Newport freeway.) Rt-9 if turned into limited access could then easily be connected with New frontage roads, etc. i can see this as a new & better way in the coming years. Also this would give Delaware a chance to collect some revenue as people traveling will pay a toll on the bridge & spend money in the tax-free state.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 17, 2017, 10:50:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 17, 2017, 10:44:14 PM
The approach highway in Delaware could take a different corridor, but I think my landing point for the bridge would be the most optimum.
They could finish Delaware 1 by having an interchange for Rt-9, (which they could turn into a limited access road, just like Rt-273, Rt-4 Newport freeway.) Rt-9 if turned into limited access could then easily be connected with New frontage roads, etc. i can see this as a new & better way in the coming years. Also this would give Delaware a chance to collect some revenue as people traveling will pay a toll on the bridge & spend money in the tax-free state.
The connector to the Garden State Parkway would only be about 5 miles long.
What are the issues regarding letting large trucks utilize the Garden State Parkway north of Asbury Park at least to the NJTP and I-287? Are the overpasses high enough?
Quote from: Beltway on May 18, 2017, 12:19:17 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 17, 2017, 10:50:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 17, 2017, 10:44:14 PM
The approach highway in Delaware could take a different corridor, but I think my landing point for the bridge would be the most optimum.
They could finish Delaware 1 by having an interchange for Rt-9, (which they could turn into a limited access road, just like Rt-273, Rt-4 Newport freeway.) Rt-9 if turned into limited access could then easily be connected with New frontage roads, etc. i can see this as a new & better way in the coming years. Also this would give Delaware a chance to collect some revenue as people traveling will pay a toll on the bridge & spend money in the tax-free state.
What are the issues regarding letting large trucks utilize the Garden State Parkway north of Asbury Park at least to the NJTP and I-287? Are the overpasses high enough?
I have no idea, search it up that is most likely the reason, but if this were built then they might aswell do 3-3-3-3 or 3-3-3 configurations. For trucks, or the easy way & raise the "low overpasses".
iPhone
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
It will be built after NJ55 gets finished, The parkway is signed as an interstate, the Atlantic City Expressway gets signed as an interstate with proper signage, and we have a lunar colony.
https://idea.library.drexel.edu/islandora/object/idea%3A1331
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
https://idea.library.drexel.edu/islandora/object/idea%3A1331
iPhone
That is about 30 miles upstream of the mouth of the bay at Cape May and Cape Henlopen.
I don't see the need for a Delaware Bay tunnel. The CBBT has tunnels because of the massive naval presence upstream of there. Even the former Philadelphia Navy Yard had three high-level bridges downstream of there. Underwater tunnels are usually massively more expensive to build than a high-level bridge.
Quote from: Beltway on May 18, 2017, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
https://idea.library.drexel.edu/islandora/object/idea%3A1331
iPhone
That is about 30 miles upstream of the mouth of the bay at Cape May and Cape Henlopen.
I don't see the need for a Delaware Bay tunnel. The CBBT has tunnels because of the massive naval presence upstream of there. Even the former Philadelphia Navy Yard had three high-level bridges downstream of there. Underwater tunnels are usually massively more expensive to build than a high-level bridge.
Yea I seen this was farther upstream. But also another thing to think about is the amount of jobs that will be made because of this project, construction, bridge control, Coast guards, restaurants (if they build man made islands). & more America is known as strong, this generation is becoming soft, if its not built in my lifetime ill make sure it will be for the next.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 18, 2017, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
https://idea.library.drexel.edu/islandora/object/idea%3A1331
iPhone
That is about 30 miles upstream of the mouth of the bay at Cape May and Cape Henlopen.
I don't see the need for a Delaware Bay tunnel. The CBBT has tunnels because of the massive naval presence upstream of there. Even the former Philadelphia Navy Yard had three high-level bridges downstream of there. Underwater tunnels are usually massively more expensive to build than a high-level bridge.
Yea I seen this was farther upstream. But also another thing to think about is the amount of jobs that will be made because of this project, construction, bridge control, Coast guards, restaurants (if they build man made islands). & more America is known as strong, this generation is becoming soft, if its not built in my lifetime ill make sure it will be for the next.
iPhone
Net jobs: 0.
Let's say the project would cost $1,000,000,000. No doubt, that would create a lot of jobs. Or, the $1,000,000,000 would be spent on other projects - repavings, highway expansions, overpass rebuilds, etc. They will create a lot of jobs as well.
So if there's money to be spent, the money will be spent, and jobs will come because of it. But the net number of jobs this project would create over other projects: None.
As for a restaurant, even the CBBT is getting rid of theirs. And if there's no need for a tunnel, there's no need for a massive man-made island, which would be fairly essential in order to have a restaurant in the middle of the bay.
Quote from: Beltway on May 18, 2017, 12:19:17 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 17, 2017, 10:50:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 17, 2017, 10:44:14 PM
The approach highway in Delaware could take a different corridor, but I think my landing point for the bridge would be the most optimum.
They could finish Delaware 1 by having an interchange for Rt-9, (which they could turn into a limited access road, just like Rt-273, Rt-4 Newport freeway.) Rt-9 if turned into limited access could then easily be connected with New frontage roads, etc. i can see this as a new & better way in the coming years. Also this would give Delaware a chance to collect some revenue as people traveling will pay a toll on the bridge & spend money in the tax-free state.
The connector to the Garden State Parkway would only be about 5 miles long.
What are the issues regarding letting large trucks utilize the Garden State Parkway north of Asbury Park at least to the NJTP and I-287? Are the overpasses high enough?
I don't think it's a bridge issue. Buses use the Parkway without a problem. Even trucks that don't understand the No Truck prohibition use the Parkway...and the toll plazas are set up to accept payments from them. When it comes down to it, for all the theories people have in regards to why trucks can't use the Parkway, the simple answer is the Parkway simply doesn't want the trucks using the Parkway.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2017, 01:37:53 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:14:43 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 18, 2017, 01:10:33 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 11:16:00 AM
https://idea.library.drexel.edu/islandora/object/idea%3A1331
iPhone
That is about 30 miles upstream of the mouth of the bay at Cape May and Cape Henlopen.
I don't see the need for a Delaware Bay tunnel. The CBBT has tunnels because of the massive naval presence upstream of there. Even the former Philadelphia Navy Yard had three high-level bridges downstream of there. Underwater tunnels are usually massively more expensive to build than a high-level bridge.
Yea I seen this was farther upstream. But also another thing to think about is the amount of jobs that will be made because of this project, construction, bridge control, Coast guards, restaurants (if they build man made islands). & more America is known as strong, this generation is becoming soft, if its not built in my lifetime ill make sure it will be for the next.
iPhone
Net jobs: 0.
Let's say the project would cost $1,000,000,000. No doubt, that would create a lot of jobs. Or, the $1,000,000,000 would be spent on other projects - repavings, highway expansions, overpass rebuilds, etc. They will create a lot of jobs as well.
So if there's money to be spent, the money will be spent, and jobs will come because of it. But the net number of jobs this project would create over other projects: None.
As for a restaurant, even the CBBT is getting rid of theirs. And if there's no need for a tunnel, there's no need for a massive man-made island, which would be fairly essential in order to have a restaurant in the middle of the bay.
Quote from: Beltway on May 18, 2017, 12:19:17 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 17, 2017, 10:50:54 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 17, 2017, 10:44:14 PM
The approach highway in Delaware could take a different corridor, but I think my landing point for the bridge would be the most optimum.
They could finish Delaware 1 by having an interchange for Rt-9, (which they could turn into a limited access road, just like Rt-273, Rt-4 Newport freeway.) Rt-9 if turned into limited access could then easily be connected with New frontage roads, etc. i can see this as a new & better way in the coming years. Also this would give Delaware a chance to collect some revenue as people traveling will pay a toll on the bridge & spend money in the tax-free state.
The connector to the Garden State Parkway would only be about 5 miles long.
What are the issues regarding letting large trucks utilize the Garden State Parkway north of Asbury Park at least to the NJTP and I-287? Are the overpasses high enough?
I don't think it's a bridge issue. Buses use the Parkway without a problem. Even trucks that don't understand the No Truck prohibition use the Parkway...and the toll plazas are set up to accept payments from them. When it comes down to it, for all the theories people have in regards to why trucks can't use the Parkway, the simple answer is the Parkway simply doesn't want the trucks using the Parkway.
Net jobs will be 0? How? Now yes we can use that money on other infrastructure. But lets keep it real some of the infrastructure doesnt even deserve a rebuild or the money to be wasted because of so many problems, heres an example, would you rather keep putting money in a old 98 Acura Tl or buy a brand new 2015 nissan or honda, which will last probably 50 more years then the acura when it came out. Also its a "parkway" its supposed to be a nice scenic drive, so I could understand the "No trucks" thats fine keep it strictly cars & maybe traffic would move better compared to other roads, this also ties into the speed limit being at least 70-75 which would cut travel time in half, Jeff, idk if you have realized but on the east coast the flow of traffic is pretty fast, sometimes I dont even wanna drive 85-90 but the flow of traffic is going like that so why not. The tolls will pay for the bridge itself, the Delmarva really doesnt have "high tolls prices" compared to NY. I do know that Havre Da Grace toll is $8 & that pays for both ways. But nothing compared to $15. This toll wouldn't even have to be $15 it could be $8 one way or $4 both ways & still make a killing. The area around this will benefit & create something new. Yes I-95 still needs work but I-95 thru philly is a joke, & to spend more money on a alley with ramps is a waste of money to me.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:28:29 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:28:29 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
iPhone
There are more useless tonytone quotes than interstates in my system.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:28:29 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
iPhone
There are more useless tonytone quotes than interstates in my system.
RoadGeek, Please
DO NOT comment if you don't have anything good to say, I see you do this on other posts aswell.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 03:03:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:28:29 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
iPhone
There are more useless tonytone quotes than interstates in my system.
RoadGeek, Please DO NOT comment if you don't have anything good to say, I see you do this on other posts aswell.
Those quotes have no purpose or point whatsoever. Care to explain what exactly they are for?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 03:03:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:28:29 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
iPhone
There are more useless tonytone quotes than interstates in my system.
RoadGeek, Please DO NOT comment if you don't have anything good to say, I see you do this on other posts aswell.
Those quotes have no purpose or point whatsoever. Care to explain what exactly they are for?
Yes these Quotes with the pictures if you have not noticed, have drawings of where potential bridges could be. But i guess you
ASSummed that the bridge going thru the Lower Bay was already there and the bridge Going across Delaware bay was already there. Please read the post and look at pictures more carefully.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 03:36:46 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 03:03:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:28:29 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
iPhone
There are more useless tonytone quotes than interstates in my system.
RoadGeek, Please DO NOT comment if you don't have anything good to say, I see you do this on other posts aswell.
Those quotes have no purpose or point whatsoever. Care to explain what exactly they are for?
Yes these Quotes with the pictures if you have not noticed, have drawings of where potential bridges could be. But i guess you ASSummed that the bridge going thru the Lower Bay was already there and the bridge Going across Delaware bay was already there. Please read the post and look at pictures more carefully.
I looked at all the pictures, still see no difference.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:57:35 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 03:36:46 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:29:29 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 03:03:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 18, 2017, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 02:04:38 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:28:29 AM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FLOWER%2520BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg&hash=fe17948919cc06f39e27bfff73597a4dbad445cc) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/LOWER%20BAY_zps7orphjat.jpg.html)
Now if you really wanted to have a new through way to NY, a bridge in the Lower Bay would defiantly be a plus. I drew a spur off the GSP which would go to the new Bridge ( this one may or may not be easier to build). Then with a connector it would connect to I-278.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi349.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq362%2FTonyTone%2FDelaware%2520Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg&hash=0c894a9a4acaefc5841840ace23ca40d1bed041b) (http://s349.photobucket.com/user/TonyTone/media/Delaware%20Bay_zpswsd5oxwj.jpg.html)
As you can see the bridge could be anywhere between the ferry and going north. Where i circled is where the interchange and new highway (only a couple miles) to connect the bridge would go. On the jersey side it would be much easier connecting roads, a parkway lies waiting.
iPhone
There are more useless tonytone quotes than interstates in my system.
RoadGeek, Please DO NOT comment if you don't have anything good to say, I see you do this on other posts aswell.
Those quotes have no purpose or point whatsoever. Care to explain what exactly they are for?
Yes these Quotes with the pictures if you have not noticed, have drawings of where potential bridges could be. But i guess you ASSummed that the bridge going thru the Lower Bay was already there and the bridge Going across Delaware bay was already there. Please read the post and look at pictures more carefully.
I looked at all the pictures, still see no difference.
Of course you dont, look again
iPhone
Tony,
I believe that Roadgeekteen was referring to your Reply #65; which is simply quoting your earlier Reply #58 (containing the images) with no additional comment nor explanation outside the quote.
IMHO, it's an unnecessary double-post.
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 18, 2017, 04:02:03 PM
Tony,
I believe that Roadgeekteen was referring to your Reply #65; which is simply quoting your earlier Reply #58 (containing the images) with no additional comment nor explanation outside the quote.
IMHO, it's an unnecessary double-post.
Yea i posted the quote again to show the crossings over water, some people learn easier by seeing a picture compared to being told.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 04:05:30 PMYea i posted the quote again to show the crossings over water, some people learn easier by seeing a picture compared to being told.
Okay. However, I would recommend that if one needs to repost/quote an earlier reply (containing the same images
again); it would be prudent (not to mention better etiquette) to add a comment/explanation/reply for such (reposting/quoting).
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 03:36:46 PM
Yes these Quotes with the pictures if you have not noticed, have drawings of where potential bridges could be. But i guess you ASSummed that the bridge going thru the Lower Bay was already there and the bridge Going across Delaware bay was already there. Please read the post and look at pictures more carefully.
Based on this comment on page 2, your assumption is wrong:
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 16, 2017, 02:18:28 PM
Probably would take to much money to build such long of a bridge.
And frankly, he's right in regards to your quoting previous posts without any further explanation. We were all confused what you were trying to show.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:50:13 PMNet jobs will be 0? How? Now yes we can use that money on other infrastructure. But lets keep it real some of the infrastructure doesnt even deserve a rebuild or the money to be wasted because of so many problems, heres an example, would you rather keep putting money in a old 98 Acura Tl or buy a brand new 2015 nissan or honda, which will last probably 50 more years then the acura when it came out. iPhone
Let's use the old adage from Click & Clack on Car Talk. It almost NEVER pays to trade in a car that you're putting a hundred dollars into a month for a new car that you automatically will be paying hundreds a month to finance. It may make you feel good, but your wallet is not making out. This adage works reasonably well for infrastructure that can be maintained. At some point it does become easier/cheaper to potentially replace and rebuild, but not for quite a while.
Are you going to abandon I-95 to focus on the $1B bridge? Is I-95 not going to need to be rebuilt now that you have a shiny bridge that takes a bit of traffic off it? There are simply better ways to promote economic activity with a higher return than this bridge.
Simply adding new infrastructure for the sake of it is a horrible practice to get into. Everything costs money to maintain, especially bridges in the middle of a tidal bay subject to winter weather.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 18, 2017, 01:50:13 PM
The tolls will pay for the bridge itself iPhone
Oh come on... If that were true, don't you think companies would be lining up to build it? We're not talking a new bridge to mid-town Manhattan here..