AARoads Forum

PA Turnpike ratings for freeway junctions

I developed a 4-level system -- Good, Fair, Poor and None.  This is better than a "yes or no" rating system.

A full interchange but low capacity would typically be rated "Fair".
An interchange with missing ramps would typically be rated "Poor".

Keep in mind that for ticketed tollroads it is not as simple as just connecting the two freeways with a conventional interchange, usually there is one big toll plaza on a connector road between the turnpike and the other freeway.  Capacity can suffer somewhat in the best of situations.

I'm sure that YMMV ...  :nod:  Input and analysis is welcome!

I-376 Beaver Valley -- Good
I-79 Cranberry -- Good, recent addition
PA-28 freeway -- None
I-376 Monroeville -- Fair, full connections but don't have enough capacity
I-70 New Stanton -- Fair, full connections but don't have enough capacity
PA-66/US-119 freeway -- Fair, freeway-grade but indirect connection
US-219 Somerset -- None
I-99/US-220 -- None.  Close but no cigar.
I-70 Breezewood -- None   ::air out the diced carrots::
I-81 Carlisle -- None
US-15 Mechanicsburg -- Fair
I-83 Harrisburg -- Fair
I-283 Harrisburg -- Good
PA-3032 Harrisburg Airport -- Fair, because I-283 and PA-283 freeway connects it indirectly
PA-283 freeway Middletown -- None, but I don't think needed, because I-283 connects it indirectly
US-222 freeway-- Good when built, but some would say Fair today because of at-grade intersections at US-222 ramp terminals
I-176 -- Good, recent addition
US-422 freeway Valley Forge -- Fair, as I-76 and US-202 freeway connects it indirectly
I-476 -- Good.  If there was an Excellent rating this one would get it. 
PA-309 Fort Washington -- Good
US-1 Philadelphia -- Good
I-95 Bristol -- None, but under construction
US-22 freeway Allentown -- Good
I-78 Allentown -- Fair, because US-22 and PA-309 freeways connect it indirectly
I-80 -- Fair, it goes thru a signalized intersection, but it is a simple connection
I-81 Pittston -- Poor, circuitous connection with some at-grade intersections
I-81 Clarks Summit -- Fair, freeway-grade but low capacity

QuoteSR 3032 Airport -- Fair, because I-283 and PA-283 freeway connects it indirectly

FTFY.  The Airport Connector here is actually a quadrant route for some reason and not a state route.  PA 232 actually is a northern Philly suburbs route for the most part.

Quote from: 74/171FAN on May 23, 2017, 07:37:50 PM

QuoteSR 3032 Airport -- Fair, because I-283 and PA-283 freeway connects it indirectly

FTFY.  The Airport Connector here is actually a quadrant route for some reason and not a state route.  PA 232 actually is a northern Philly suburbs route for the most part.

I must have misread the map ... I will go back and change it.

I would tend to agree with most of your assessments, although I'm inclined to nudge some ratings slightly downward. For example, I'd agree that the I-83 interchange is quite squarely in the "Fair"  column (direct connection–but tight ramp geometry and very short "decision distances"  on either end of the toll plaza). For similar reasons, I'd probably nudge several examples you rated "Good"  down to "Fair+"  if there was such an option. I think US 1, for example, is slightly less than "Good" .

I also agree that Mid County is the only one that would earn a "Good+"  or "Excellent"  rating, although one shortcoming is the lack of direct connection from the south to the west (and a slightly complicated connection for the reverse). Sometimes the circuitous I-476 North -> I-276 West is faster than taking I-76 through the seemingly perpetual congestion around King of Prussia.

And because of this hopeless congestion, I'd probably downgrade the connections to US 202 and US 422 as "Fair-"  at best.

Similar to US 222, I'd also consider I-376 Beaver Valley "Fair" because of the at-grade intersections on the ramp terminals.

Quote from: briantroutman on May 23, 2017, 08:31:36 PM
I would tend to agree with most of your assessments, although I'm inclined to nudge some ratings slightly downward. For example, I'd agree that the I-83 interchange is quite squarely in the "Fair"  column (direct connection–but tight ramp geometry and very short "decision distances"  on either end of the toll plaza). For similar reasons, I'd probably nudge several examples you rated "Good"  down to "Fair+"  if there was such an option. I think US 1, for example, is slightly less than "Good" .

I also agree that Mid County is the only one that would earn a "Good+"  or "Excellent"  rating, although one shortcoming is the lack of direct connection from the south to the west (and a slightly complicated connection for the reverse). Sometimes the circuitous I-476 North -> I-276 West is faster than taking I-76 through the seemingly perpetual congestion around King of Prussia.

I'm sure that the designers 30 years ago didn't plan on using I-476 north to bypass King of Prussia to get to the Turnpike west of Valley Forge.  That thought that Ridge Pike is the only I-476 interchange that would be capturing traffic that might want to take I-476 to access I-276 to the west.  Any local traffic in the I-476/Ridge Pike area can use local roads to get to the local access Turnpike interchange at Plymouth Meeting.

Quote
And because of this hopeless congestion, I'd probably downgrade the connections to US 202 and US 422 as "Fair-"  at best.

The recent upgrades on US-202 have helped, but indeed is a congested area.

I agree with the I-83 and the US-222 junctions.

PA 309 & US 1 tend to be pretty congested.  Not sure if they're really "Good".

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2017, 06:00:36 AM
PA 309 & US 1 tend to be pretty congested.  Not sure if they're really "Good".

Yes I agree, and the development around the interchange constrains any ability to expand it, and it combines freeway connection with local access thru the connector road that extends to the local roads.

That is also the busiest section of the Turnpike, about 103,000 AADT west of the interchange and about 100,000 east of the interchange.  The Turnpike there is 6 lanes and those are 8-lane warrants.

The new E-ZPass ramps at Virginia Drive a mile east of there (WB off and WB on), provide local access support and relief to the Fort Washington interchange.  Would be good if they could build the other pair (EB off and EB on) in that vicinity.

Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2017, 07:49:36 PM

Quote from: 74/171FAN on May 23, 2017, 07:37:50 PM

QuoteSR 3032 Airport -- Fair, because I-283 and PA-283 freeway connects it indirectly

FTFY.  The Airport Connector here is actually a quadrant route for some reason and not a state route.  PA 232 actually is a northern Philly suburbs route for the most part.

I must have misread the map ... I will go back and change it.

Could you provide a link to the map?

ixnay

Quote from: ixnay on May 24, 2017, 07:18:22 AM

Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2017, 07:49:36 PM

Quote from: 74/171FAN on May 23, 2017, 07:37:50 PM

QuoteSR 3032 Airport -- Fair, because I-283 and PA-283 freeway connects it indirectly

FTFY.  The Airport Connector here is actually a quadrant route for some reason and not a state route.  PA 232 actually is a northern Philly suburbs route for the most part.

I must have misread the map ... I will go back and change it.

Could you provide a link to the map?
ixnay

I meant to say the original post...

Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2017, 07:10:14 PM
I-70 Breezewood -- None   ::air out the diced carrots::

Those are carrots that have been fed to a horse, digested by the horse, and the remnants passed out from the south end of the horse.

Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
I'm sure that the designers 30 years ago didn't plan on using I-476 north to bypass King of Prussia to get to the Turnpike west of Valley Forge.

Agreed, and as with several other traffic pinches in Pennsylvania, the situation today would like be quite different if other planned routes (King of Prussia spur from I-476) had been constructed.

Quote from: briantroutman on May 24, 2017, 02:22:52 PM

Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
I'm sure that the designers 30 years ago didn't plan on using I-476 north to bypass King of Prussia to get to the Turnpike west of Valley Forge.

Agreed, and as with several other traffic pinches in Pennsylvania, the situation today would like be quite different if other planned routes (King of Prussia spur from I-476) had been constructed.

Actually, such was known as the Radnor Spur and it was basically a southeasterly extension of US 422 to I-476.

Quote from: briantroutman on May 23, 2017, 08:31:36 PM
I would tend to agree with most of your assessments, although I’m inclined to nudge some ratings slightly downward. For example, I’d agree that the I-83 interchange is quite squarely in the “Fair” column (direct connection—but tight ramp geometry and very short “decision distances” on either end of the toll plaza). For similar reasons, I’d probably nudge several examples you rated “Good” down to “Fair+” if there was such an option. I think US 1, for example, is slightly less than “Good”.

I also agree that Mid County is the only one that would earn a “Good+” or “Excellent” rating, although one shortcoming is the lack of direct connection from the south to the west (and a slightly complicated connection for the reverse). Sometimes the circuitous I-476 North -> I-276 West is faster than taking I-76 through the seemingly perpetual congestion around King of Prussia.

And because of this hopeless congestion, I’d probably downgrade the connections to US 202 and US 422 as “Fair-” at best.

It depends on if the rating system is specific to the PTC, or to PA as a whole.  The US 202/US 422 debacle is purely PennDOTs fault, and nothing to do with the PTC. (Why they thought that a one-lane funnel to US 422 West was adequate, I'll never understand.) Most of the other connections are largely PTC designed, or jointly designed between the PTC and PennDOT. 

I'll use a letter grade system...I tend to agree with the above but I have some slight nuances:

I-376 Beaver Valley - C (I'm not too familiar with this one)
I-79 Cranberry -- B
PA-28 freeway -- F
I-376 Monroeville -- B- (tight curves)
I-70 New Stanton -- B
PA-66/US-119 freeway -- B
US-219 Somerset -- F
I-99/US-220 -- F
I-70 Breezewood -- F
I-81 Carlisle -- F
US-15 Mechanicsburg -- B
I-83 Harrisburg -- B- (I-83 part is inadequate)
I-283 Harrisburg -- B
PA-3032 Harrisburg Airport -- F (but not needed)
PA-283 freeway Middletown -- F (but not needed)
US-222 freeway-- C
I-176 -- B+
I-76/US 202/US 422 - B-  (I-76 West should not be a loop ramp)
I-476 -- A-
PA-309 Fort Washington -- B+
US-1 Philadelphia -- B-  (US 1 part is in adequate)
I-95 Bristol -- I
US-22 freeway Allentown -- B
I-78 Allentown -- F (but not needed)
I-80 -- C
I-81 Pittston -- D
I-81 Clarks Summit -- C- (stop signs and tight ramps)

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 24, 2017, 02:25:18 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on May 24, 2017, 02:22:52 PM

Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
I'm sure that the designers 30 years ago didn't plan on using I-476 north to bypass King of Prussia to get to the Turnpike west of Valley Forge.

Agreed, and as with several other traffic pinches in Pennsylvania, the situation today would like be quite different if other planned routes (King of Prussia spur from I-476) had been constructed.

Actually, such was known as the Radnor Spur and it was basically a southeasterly extension of US 422 to I-476.

The Schuylkill Expressway widening itself would greatly help, it has needed it since 1970 or before.  The Montgomery County segment itself could go forth as a Segment of Independent Utility (SIU), while they figure out how to address it in the city.  The Montgomery County segment carries over 130,000 AADT throughout, making it one of the highest volume 4-lane freeways in the country.  Needs 8 lanes.

Quote from: jemacedo9 on May 24, 2017, 02:48:46 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on May 23, 2017, 08:31:36 PM
And because of this hopeless congestion, I'd probably downgrade the connections to US 202 and US 422 as "Fair-"  at best.

It depends on if the rating system is specific to the PTC, or to PA as a whole.  The US 202/US 422 debacle is purely PennDOTs fault, and nothing to do with the PTC. (Why they thought that a one-lane funnel to US 422 West was adequate, I'll never understand.) Most of the other connections are largely PTC designed, or jointly designed between the PTC and PennDOT. 

Given the level of commercial development today, it would be all but impossible to obtain the land needed to connect US-422 directly to the Turnpike.   Conceptually that is what is needed.

That land was probably available when the first segment of US-422 was opened about 1969, from US-202 to PA-363; not signed as US-422 then but the extension known as the Pottstown Expressway was already in the planning stages.

Quote from: jemacedo9 on May 24, 2017, 02:55:26 PM
I'll use a letter grade system...I tend to agree with the above but I have some slight nuances:

I-376 Beaver Valley - C (I'm not too familiar with this one)
I-79 Cranberry -- B
PA-28 freeway -- F
I-376 Monroeville -- B- (tight curves)
I-70 New Stanton -- B
PA-66/US-119 freeway -- B
US-219 Somerset -- F
I-99/US-220 -- F
I-70 Breezewood -- F
I-81 Carlisle -- F
US-15 Mechanicsburg -- B
I-83 Harrisburg -- B- (I-83 part is inadequate)
I-283 Harrisburg -- B
PA-3032 Harrisburg Airport -- F (but not needed)
PA-283 freeway Middletown -- F (but not needed)
US-222 freeway-- C
I-176 -- B+
I-76/US 202/US 422 - B-  (I-76 West should not be a loop ramp)
I-476 -- A-
PA-309 Fort Washington -- B+
US-1 Philadelphia -- B-  (US 1 part is in adequate)
I-95 Bristol -- I
US-22 freeway Allentown -- B
I-78 Allentown -- F (but not needed)
I-80 -- C
I-81 Pittston -- D
I-81 Clarks Summit -- C- (stop signs and tight ramps)

Yours is another good method, 5 levels instead of 4.

Not sure why I omitted I-76 Schuylkill Expressway.  Like you said, I-76 West should not be a loop ramp, although it looks like it has a second lane that is unopened awaiting the completion of 6-laning to the west of there.  Given that design I would rate it as Good.

Quote from: Beltway on May 24, 2017, 03:38:53 PM

Quote from: jemacedo9 on May 24, 2017, 02:55:26 PM
I'll use a letter grade system...I tend to agree with the above but I have some slight nuances:

I-376 Beaver Valley - C (I'm not too familiar with this one)
I-79 Cranberry -- B
PA-28 freeway -- F
I-376 Monroeville -- B- (tight curves)
I-70 New Stanton -- B
PA-66/US-119 freeway -- B
US-219 Somerset -- F
I-99/US-220 -- F
I-70 Breezewood -- F
I-81 Carlisle -- F
US-15 Mechanicsburg -- B
I-83 Harrisburg -- B- (I-83 part is inadequate)
I-283 Harrisburg -- B
PA-3032 Harrisburg Airport -- F (but not needed)
PA-283 freeway Middletown -- F (but not needed)
US-222 freeway-- C
I-176 -- B+
I-76/US 202/US 422 - B-  (I-76 West should not be a loop ramp)
I-476 -- A-
PA-309 Fort Washington -- B+
US-1 Philadelphia -- B-  (US 1 part is in adequate)
I-95 Bristol -- I
US-22 freeway Allentown -- B
I-78 Allentown -- F (but not needed)
I-80 -- C
I-81 Pittston -- D
I-81 Clarks Summit -- C- (stop signs and tight ramps)

Yours is another good method, 5 levels instead of 4.

Not sure why I omitted I-76 Schuylkill Expressway.  Like you said, I-76 West should not be a loop ramp, although it looks like it has a second lane that is unopened awaiting the completion of 6-laning to the west of there.  Given that design I would rate it as Good.

There are actually 14 levels: F, D-, D, D+, C-, C, C+, B-, B, B+, A-, A, and for some reason I (independent?).

It may seem like that's too many levels, but it's only a few more than "rate from 0-10".

Quote from: 1 on May 24, 2017, 03:44:51 PM

Quote from: Beltway on May 24, 2017, 03:38:53 PM

Quote from: jemacedo9 on May 24, 2017, 02:55:26 PM
I'll use a letter grade system...I tend to agree with the above but I have some slight nuances:

I-376 Beaver Valley - C (I'm not too familiar with this one)
I-79 Cranberry -- B
PA-28 freeway -- F
I-376 Monroeville -- B- (tight curves)
I-70 New Stanton -- B
PA-66/US-119 freeway -- B
US-219 Somerset -- F
I-99/US-220 -- F
I-70 Breezewood -- F
I-81 Carlisle -- F
US-15 Mechanicsburg -- B
I-83 Harrisburg -- B- (I-83 part is inadequate)
I-283 Harrisburg -- B
PA-3032 Harrisburg Airport -- F (but not needed)
PA-283 freeway Middletown -- F (but not needed)
US-222 freeway-- C
I-176 -- B+
I-76/US 202/US 422 - B-  (I-76 West should not be a loop ramp)
I-476 -- A-
PA-309 Fort Washington -- B+
US-1 Philadelphia -- B-  (US 1 part is in adequate)
I-95 Bristol -- I
US-22 freeway Allentown -- B
I-78 Allentown -- F (but not needed)
I-80 -- C
I-81 Pittston -- D
I-81 Clarks Summit -- C- (stop signs and tight ramps)

Yours is another good method, 5 levels instead of 4.

Not sure why I omitted I-76 Schuylkill Expressway.  Like you said, I-76 West should not be a loop ramp, although it looks like it has a second lane that is unopened awaiting the completion of 6-laning to the west of there.  Given that design I would rate it as Good.

There are actually 14 levels: F, D-, D, D+, C-, C, C+, B-, B, B+, A-, A, and for some reason I (independent?).

It may seems like that's too many levels, but it's only a few more than "rate from 0-10".

I = incomplete; currently an F

Quote from: jemacedo9 on May 24, 2017, 03:50:38 PM

Quote from: 1 on May 24, 2017, 03:44:51 PM

Quote from: Beltway on May 24, 2017, 03:38:53 PM
Yours is another good method, 5 levels instead of 4.

Not sure why I omitted I-76 Schuylkill Expressway.  Like you said, I-76 West should not be a loop ramp, although it looks like it has a second lane that is unopened awaiting the completion of 6-laning to the west of there.  Given that design I would rate it as Good.

There are actually 14 levels: F, D-, D, D+, C-, C, C+, B-, B, B+, A-, A, and for some reason I (independent?).

It may seems like that's too many levels, but it's only a few more than "rate from 0-10".

I = incomplete; currently an F

If I used pluses and minuses on mine, it would be 10 levels.

The first stage completion of the I-95 interchange, the I-95 direct connection ramp highways, I would rate as Good.  The fully completed interchange would rate as Excellent if I had such a rating.

If the Turnpike goes to All Electronic Tolling (AET), then any future interchange additions or upgrades can follow standard designs for non-toll freeways.  That will simplify things.  I-70 Breezewood could be connected directly to the mainline rather than the connector highway.  Standard freeway-to-freeway interchanges at US-219, I-99/US-220 and I-81.

Quote from: Beltway on May 24, 2017, 04:08:27 PMIf the Turnpike goes to All Electronic Tolling (AET), then any future interchange additions or upgrades can follow standard designs for non-toll freeways.  That will simplify things.  I-70 Breezewood could be connected directly to the mainline rather than the connector highway.

The only difference that AET implementation does regarding a future direct-connection between I-70 & the Turnpike (I-76) would be that overhead toll gantries would be erected instead of a toll booth plaza.   The proposed interchange/ramp layout geometry shouldn't change one iota (as long as the toll gantry/plaza is located far enough away).

It's actually simpler if the gantries are in between interchanges instead of at the interchanges.  That's how MD 200 is setup.

Quote from: BrianP on May 24, 2017, 04:59:54 PM
It's actually simpler if the gantries are in between interchanges instead of at the interchanges.  That's how MD 200 is setup.

Similar was recently done along the Mass Pike (I-90) as well; its AET conversion was done instantaneously.

At present, no word yet as towards when the entire PA Turnpike system will completely go AET.  At present, such has been done piecemeal and/or with EZ-Pass only ramps/interchanges.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 24, 2017, 05:47:00 PM

Quote from: BrianP on May 24, 2017, 04:59:54 PM
It's actually simpler if the gantries are in between interchanges instead of at the interchanges.  That's how MD 200 is setup.

Same setup on the HOT lane roadways on Virginia I-95 and I-495.

Quote from: BrianP on May 24, 2017, 04:59:54 PM
Similar was recently done along the Mass Pike (I-90) as well; its AET conversion was done instantaneously.

At present, no word yet as towards when the entire PA Turnpike system will completely go AET.  At present, such has been done piecemeal and/or with EZ-Pass only ramps/interchanges.

The design of the new interchange at I-95 is AET compatible.

I see that the interchange toll plaza at I-376 Beaver Valley has been removed.  Mainline barrier tolling was installed on the mainline segment west of Pittsburgh.

Quote from: Beltway on May 24, 2017, 06:05:15 PMThe design of the new interchange at I-95 is AET compatible.

Such already exists; there's been a westbound-only toll gantry at the Delaware River Bridge since early last year.  The mainline toll plaza was relocated just west of the new interchange that's currently under construction.

Quote from: BrianP on May 24, 2017, 04:59:54 PM
It's actually simpler if the gantries are in between interchanges instead of at the interchanges.  That's how MD 200 is setup.

I think that is what PTC has in mind for the conversion to cashless toll collection.

For an existing toll road like the PTC, I wonder if it's easier to simply utilize the ramps for their ETC tolling points, since the equipment and buildings are already there.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2017, 08:52:56 AM
For an existing toll road like the PTC, I wonder if it's easier to simply utilize the ramps for their ETC tolling points, since the equipment and buildings are already there.

Massachusetts thought otherwise and their overall system is much smaller than PTC's.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 09:10:56 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2017, 08:52:56 AM
For an existing toll road like the PTC, I wonder if it's easier to simply utilize the ramps for their ETC tolling points, since the equipment and buildings are already there.

Massachusetts thought otherwise and their overall system is much smaller than PTC's.

It also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2017, 09:28:27 AMIt also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

Good question; however, it should be noted that not every stretch of the Pike (west of I-95/MA 128) has AET gantries between every interchange.  There are no AET gantries within the Springfield area & Worcester area interchanges. 

PTC could (& IMHO should if full-AET implementation happens) conceivably not place AET gantries between interchanges that are spaced closer together (I-276 portion near Philly as one example).  Such would cut down on the total number of AET gantries needed to be erected.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 10:20:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2017, 09:28:27 AMIt also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

Good question; however, it should be noted that not every stretch of the Pike (west of I-95/MA 128) has AET gantries between every interchange.  There are no AET gantries within the Springfield area & Worcester area interchanges. 

PTC could (& IMHO should if full-AET implementation happens) conceivably not place AET gantries between interchanges that are spaced closer together (I-276 portion near Philly as one example).  Such would cut down on the total number of AET gantries needed to be erected.

My suggestion would be for PTC to retain the mainline toll points that they have now (such as eastbound east of the Ohio border and at the top of I-476 (N.E. Extension), and on  the ticket system, just put a gantry across the highway between each interchange (I cannot think of any places on the E-W mainline or N.E. Extension where the interchanges are so close together that this would be an issue).   It would also allow for relatively easy construction of new interchanges at places that are currently bypassed by the Turnpike, such as New Baltimore and Everett.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 24, 2017, 06:58:08 PM

Quote from: Beltway on May 24, 2017, 06:05:15 PMThe design of the new interchange at I-95 is AET compatible.

Such already exists; there's been a westbound-only toll gantry at the Delaware River Bridge since early last year.  The mainline toll plaza was relocated just west of the new interchange that's currently under construction.

I think that is what I meant, that as part of the interchange project the mainline toll plaza was relocated west of I-95, that the interchange itself will have ramps and ramp highways that connect directly between I-95 and the Turnpike and with no toll booths on any new ramps.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 25, 2017, 11:47:45 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 10:20:31 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2017, 09:28:27 AMIt also cost $250 million.  How much would a complete conversion a la Mass Pike cost the much larger PA Turnpike?

Good question; however, it should be noted that not every stretch of the Pike (west of I-95/MA 128) has AET gantries between every interchange.  There are no AET gantries within the Springfield area & Worcester area interchanges. 

PTC could (& IMHO should if full-AET implementation happens) conceivably not place AET gantries between interchanges that are spaced closer together (I-276 portion near Philly as one example).  Such would cut down on the total number of AET gantries needed to be erected.

My suggestion would be for PTC to retain the mainline toll points that they have now (such as eastbound east of the Ohio border and at the top of I-476 (N.E. Extension), and on  the ticket system, just put a gantry across the highway between each interchange (I cannot think of any places on the E-W mainline or N.E. Extension where the interchanges are so close together that this would be an issue).   It would also allow for relatively easy construction of new interchanges at places that are currently bypassed by the Turnpike, such as New Baltimore and Everett.

Also will simplify adding new interchanges in the metro areas, the average spacing is very wide as in about 7 miles, in the Philadelphia area and the Pittsburgh area.

These would be good to have --

Chesterbrook development west of Valley Forge
Connector to downtown Norristown already is being planned
PA-152, second half of Virginia Drive AET ramps
PA-232 in Bucks County

NE Extension, Montgomery County
US-202
PA-363
PA-563

If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 25, 2017, 04:50:36 PM
If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

The way it's done for the Mass Pike; the statement only lists the first & last gantries one passes through and lists the total, cumulative toll.

During a recent trip along the Mass Pike (I-90) between I-84 and I-95/MA 128; the transaction read Weston-West for the entry & Charlton-West for the last/exit gantry.  For that trip, one passes through 5 gantries.

One would imagine/hope that the PTC would do similar.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 05:11:53 PM

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 25, 2017, 04:50:36 PM
If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

The way it's done for the Mass Pike; the statement only lists the first & last gantries one passes through and lists the total, cumulative toll.

During a recent trip along the Mass Pike (I-90) between I-84 and I-95/MA 128; the transaction read Weston-West for the entry & Charlton-West for the last/exit gantry.  For that trip, one passes through 5 gantries.

One would imagine/hope that the PTC would do similar.

That's better than what is done for the Garden State Parkway.  They list every toll barrier you go through on a given journey.

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 25, 2017, 05:29:29 PMThat's better than what is done for the Garden State Parkway.  They list every toll barrier you go through on a given journey.

That's because the GSP isn't AET.

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on May 25, 2017, 04:50:36 PM
If the turnpike had these across the road gantries, what would one's EZ-Pass statement look like if one drove the entire length from NJ to Ohio?

It would show the "entry plaza" and "exit plaza," rather like it does now.

MD-200 (InterCounty Connector) has had gantries between every interchange (with the exception of two half-interchanges), and on the E-ZPass statement, it simply shows the "entry plaza" (the first gantry the driver passed under) and  "exit plaza" (the last gantry passed under). Maryland has never had a ticket-type toll road until MD-200 (which is "virtual ticket" since there is no cash toll collection), but the reference to plazas is presumably for roads like the New Jersey and Pennsylvania Turnpikes, which are used by at least some Maryland drivers.

On the other hand, I recall reading that the MassPike was not doing that and would instead just list every single gantry separately.  Haven't been on the MassPike since conversion though, so I'm not sure if they actually ended up doing that.

Quote from: vdeane on May 26, 2017, 01:02:14 PM
On the other hand, I recall reading that the MassPike was not doing that and would instead just list every single gantry separately.  Haven't been on the MassPike since conversion though, so I'm not sure if they actually ended up doing that.

Per my earlier post (reposted below):

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 25, 2017, 05:11:53 PMThe way it's done for the Mass Pike; the statement only lists the first & last gantries one passes through and lists the total, cumulative toll.

During a recent trip along the Mass Pike (I-90) between I-84 and I-95/MA 128; the transaction read Weston-West for the entry & Charlton-West for the last/exit gantry.  For that trip, one passes through 5 gantries.

Additionally, since I have been back-and-forth between home (Greater Philly) & Massachusetts (using the Pike post-AET conversion) almost every weekend (including this upcoming one) since my father died earlier this month.  I have proof of such transactions (see example from last Saturday below).

Quote from: Excerpt of said-trip from my EZ-Pass transaction listings for I-90 West between I-95/MA 128 to I-84 for last weekendPost date 05/23/2017
Exit time date 05/20/2017 22:02:03
TOLL CHARGE 
Entry Weston
Exit West Charlton - West
Amount ($1.70)

Quote from: Beltway on May 25, 2017, 12:13:38 PM
Also will simplify adding new interchanges in the metro areas, the average spacing is very wide as in about 7 miles, in the Philadelphia area and the Pittsburgh area.

These would be good to have --

Chesterbrook development west of Valley Forge
Connector to downtown Norristown already is being planned
PA-152, second half of Virginia Drive AET ramps
PA-232 in Bucks County

NE Extension, Montgomery County
US-202
PA-363
PA-563

From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

Quote from: MASTERNC on May 30, 2017, 08:58:06 PM
From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

Quote from: Beltway on May 30, 2017, 11:35:56 PM

Quote from: MASTERNC on May 30, 2017, 08:58:06 PM
From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

The thing is... traffic happened at Chesterbrook anyway.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 09:10:02 AM

Quote from: Beltway on May 30, 2017, 11:35:56 PM

Quote from: MASTERNC on May 30, 2017, 08:58:06 PM
From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

The thing is... traffic happened at Chesterbrook anyway.

Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 10:02:38 AM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 09:10:02 AM

Quote from: Beltway on May 30, 2017, 11:35:56 PM

Quote from: MASTERNC on May 30, 2017, 08:58:06 PM
From what I heard, the Chesterbrook slip ramp (to PA 252) had been proposed a long time ago but was scrapped due to significant community opposition amidst fears traffic in the Chesterbrook complex would spike dramatically.

When I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s the opposite was a concern -- Chesterbrook was in the planning stages then, and there was great concern about the development having massive traffic increase impacts on the Great Valley area.

The thing is... traffic happened at Chesterbrook anyway.

Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

US 202 in this area was widened to 6 lanes (long overdue) a while back.  While not a limited-access highway, PA 252 along (W. Swedesford & Bear Hill Roads) is 4-lanes south of 202 to the Hilltop Rd. intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chesterbrook,+PA/@40.0578596,-75.4730103,1949m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c6930ae76db6c1:0x34250d816a713093!8m2!3d40.0756627!4d-75.4590816).

As far as additional homes being built; if there's a sewer line nearby to tap into, such will eventually be built.  From what I've seen, and not just Chesterbrook, lack of decent access roads has never stopped new residential or even business construction from happening.  Case & point: development along MacDade Blvd., Baltimore Pike & West Chester Pike (PA 3) went unhindered while completion of (a scaled-down) I-476 languished for 15 years.  Such was why the traffic counts along I-476 within the first year of its opening were already at the projected 20-year level and why the 4-lane stretch has been gridlocked at every rush hour since its opening.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 10:24:44 AM

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 10:02:38 AM
Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

US 202 in this area was widened to 6 lanes (long overdue) a while back.  While not a limited-access highway, PA 252 along (W. Swedesford & Bear Hill Roads) is 4-lanes south of 202 to the Hilltop Rd. intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chesterbrook,+PA/@40.0578596,-75.4730103,1949m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c6930ae76db6c1:0x34250d816a713093!8m2!3d40.0756627!4d-75.4590816).

PA-252 is not 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli.  It is 2 lanes north of US-202, of course Valley Forge park effectively makes it impossible to expand PA-252 to 4 lanes.

As I said a Turnpike interchange positioned to serve Chesterbrook would be a major improvement for traffic access and relief.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 10:24:44 AM
As far as additional homes being built; if there's a sewer line nearby to tap into, such will eventually be built.  From what I've seen, and not just Chesterbrook, lack of decent access roads has never stopped new residential or even business construction from happening.  Case & point: development along MacDade Blvd., Baltimore Pike & West Chester Pike (PA 3) went unhindered while completion of (a scaled-down) I-476 languished for 15 years.  Such was why the traffic counts along I-476 within the first year of its opening were already at the projected 20-year level and why the 4-lane stretch has been gridlocked at every rush hour since its opening.

The alternative would have been no I-476, unfortunately.  The original plan was 6 lanes throughout, with high capacity interchanges; they had to compromise to obtain enough support from local officials and citizen groups.

Quote from: vdeane on May 26, 2017, 01:02:14 PM
On the other hand, I recall reading that the MassPike was not doing that and would instead just list every single gantry separately.  Haven't been on the MassPike since conversion though, so I'm not sure if they actually ended up doing that.

That was the original plan.  However, MassDOT's AET vendor figured out a way to avoid having to do that on statements.  As others have noted, statements give just first and last gantries passed underneath (similar to the entry-exit notations on the old E-ZPass statements in the days of the ticket system).

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 02:09:15 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 10:24:44 AM

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 10:02:38 AM
Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

US 202 in this area was widened to 6 lanes (long overdue) a while back.  While not a limited-access highway, PA 252 along (W. Swedesford & Bear Hill Roads) is 4-lanes south of 202 to the Hilltop Rd. intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chesterbrook,+PA/@40.0578596,-75.4730103,1949m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c6930ae76db6c1:0x34250d816a713093!8m2!3d40.0756627!4d-75.4590816).

PA-252 is not 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli.  It is 2 lanes north of US-202, of course Valley Forge park effectively makes it impossible to expand PA-252 to 4 lanes.

Where did I say that PA 252 was 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli?  It's 4-lanes south of 202 to Hilltop Rd., which is just south of where a set of railroad tracks cross under the roadway. From there to Paoli (US 30) it ranges from 2 to 4 lanes (the 3rd lane being a southbound passing lane & the 4th lane being a northbound turning lane in some areas).

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 02:09:15 PMAs I said a Turnpike interchange positioned to serve Chesterbrook would be a major improvement for traffic access and relief.

And I agree with you.  I only commented on your stating that the only other roads in the area were only 2-laners.

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 02:09:15 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 10:24:44 AM
As far as additional homes being built; if there's a sewer line nearby to tap into, such will eventually be built.  From what I've seen, and not just Chesterbrook, lack of decent access roads has never stopped new residential or even business construction from happening.  Case & point: development along MacDade Blvd., Baltimore Pike & West Chester Pike (PA 3) went unhindered while completion of (a scaled-down) I-476 languished for 15 years.  Such was why the traffic counts along I-476 within the first year of its opening were already at the projected 20-year level and why the 4-lane stretch has been gridlocked at every rush hour since its opening.

The alternative would have been no I-476, unfortunately.

And such was indeed the case prior to Dec. 1991.  I moved into the area in July 1990; so I am very well aware of what motoring life was like in Greater Philly prior to I-476.

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 02:09:15 PMThe original plan was 6 lanes throughout, with high capacity interchanges; they had to compromise to obtain enough support from local officials and citizen groups.

Again, I am more than well aware of such.  Of course, and I know you know this, but I can almost guarantee you that many of the same NIMBYs who griped & whined about the Blue Route opening are probably now whining about being stuck in traffic on it.  One word for those individuals; hypocrites.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 03:01:00 PM

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 02:09:15 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 31, 2017, 10:24:44 AM

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 10:02:38 AM
Other than US-202 there were no other 4-lane roads serving the Chesterbrook area, and none planned.  Just 2-lane roads, mostly secondary.  So planners were not at all excited about thousands of new homes being built.

US 202 in this area was widened to 6 lanes (long overdue) a while back.  While not a limited-access highway, PA 252 along (W. Swedesford & Bear Hill Roads) is 4-lanes south of 202 to the Hilltop Rd. intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Chesterbrook,+PA/@40.0578596,-75.4730103,1949m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c6930ae76db6c1:0x34250d816a713093!8m2!3d40.0756627!4d-75.4590816).

PA-252 is not 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli.  It is 2 lanes north of US-202, of course Valley Forge park effectively makes it impossible to expand PA-252 to 4 lanes.

Where did I say that PA 252 was 4 lanes all the way down to Paoli?  It's 4-lanes south of 202 to Hilltop Rd., which is just south of where a set of railroad tracks cross under the roadway. From there to Paoli (US 30) it ranges from 2 to 4 lanes (the 3rd lane being a southbound passing lane & the 4th lane being a northbound turning lane in some areas).

Quote from: Beltway on May 31, 2017, 02:09:15 PMAs I said a Turnpike interchange positioned to serve Chesterbrook would be a major improvement for traffic access and relief.

And I agree with you.  I only commented on your stating that the only other roads in the area were only 2-laners.

Well, checking the Google Maps link, it looks like my statement was not -precisely- true, but the 0.6 mile or so of PA-252 from US-202 southward, was not 4 lanes in the 1970s.

In the 1970s --
Neither Cassatt Road nor its interchange with US-202 existed.
The US-202 westerly ramps with West Swedesford Road were graded when the highway was built in the late 1960s but were unbuilt until sometime later, probably in the 1980s.

So about 1/2 mile of PA-252 was 4 lanes from the railroad to West Swedesford Road, but did not connect into any other 4 lane roads.

I moved to Virginia in 1977 so that limited my future knowledge of the area somewhat.

Quote from: PHLBOS on May 24, 2017, 02:25:18 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on May 24, 2017, 02:22:52 PM

Quote from: Beltway on May 23, 2017, 10:59:38 PM
I'm sure that the designers 30 years ago didn't plan on using I-476 north to bypass King of Prussia to get to the Turnpike west of Valley Forge.

Agreed, and as with several other traffic pinches in Pennsylvania, the situation today would like be quite different if other planned routes (King of Prussia spur from I-476) had been constructed.

Actually, such was known as the Radnor Spur and it was basically a southeasterly extension of US 422 to I-476.

A mini version of that was built about 10 years ago to connect southbound US-422 to eastbound I-76.  Will they ever build a northbound version of that?  It would be a big help in bypassing US-202.

I will grant that with the railroad bridge over I-76, that it would take a fairly long and high flyover bridge to pass over I-76 and the railroad.

Quote from: Beltway on June 02, 2017, 09:30:49 PM
A mini version of that was built about 10 years ago to connect southbound US-422 to eastbound I-76.  Will they ever build a northbound version of that?  It would be a big help in bypassing US-202.

I will grant that with the railroad bridge over I-76, that it would take a fairly long and high flyover bridge to pass over I-76 and the railroad.

Probably won't be done, which is a shame given the number of truck rollover accidents they've had on the tight loop ramps from I-76 WB to US 202 or US 422.

They should also widen the ramp to US 422 from I-76/US 202 SB to two lanes.  That is a major bottleneck, even on weekends.

Quote from: MASTERNC on June 03, 2017, 08:59:09 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 02, 2017, 09:30:49 PM
A mini version of that was built about 10 years ago to connect southbound US-422 to eastbound I-76.  Will they ever build a northbound version of that?  It would be a big help in bypassing US-202.

I will grant that with the railroad bridge over I-76, that it would take a fairly long and high flyover bridge to pass over I-76 and the railroad.

Probably won't be done, which is a shame given the number of truck rollover accidents they've had on the tight loop ramps from I-76 WB to US 202 or US 422.

They should also widen the ramp to US 422 from I-76/US 202 SB to two lanes.  That is a major bottleneck, even on weekends.

I worked at the nearby PennDOT District 8-0 office when this complex was completed. It was a HUGE improvement over the previous configuration and traffic conditions, but that ramp was congested from Day 1.

Quote from: qguy on June 03, 2017, 10:36:07 PM

Quote from: MASTERNC on June 03, 2017, 08:59:09 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 02, 2017, 09:30:49 PM
A mini version of that was built about 10 years ago to connect southbound US-422 to eastbound I-76.  Will they ever build a northbound version of that?  It would be a big help in bypassing US-202.

I will grant that with the railroad bridge over I-76, that it would take a fairly long and high flyover bridge to pass over I-76 and the railroad.

Probably won't be done, which is a shame given the number of truck rollover accidents they've had on the tight loop ramps from I-76 WB to US 202 or US 422.

They should also widen the ramp to US 422 from I-76/US 202 SB to two lanes.  That is a major bottleneck, even on weekends.

I worked at the nearby PennDOT District 8-0 office when this complex was completed. It was a HUGE improvement over the previous configuration and traffic conditions, but that ramp was congested from Day 1.

PennDOT District 6-0 office?

The upgrade was a major improvement, but traffic from westbound I-76 to westbound US-422 still has to use a segment of US-202.  A direct ramp could bypass that.

Quote from: Beltway on June 03, 2017, 10:57:10 PMThe upgrade was a major improvement, but traffic from westbound I-76 to westbound US-422 still has to use a segment of US-202.  A direct ramp could bypass that.

Actually, the current configuration (https://www.google.com/maps/place/King+of+Prussia,+PA/@40.08218,-75.4014998,16.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c694352c6e632d:0xfa099731bfc15395!8m2!3d40.1012856!4d-75.3835525), while parallel to southbound 202, is indeed a separate ramp for both westbound 422 & Swedesford Road.  It's not a collector-distributor road that feeds back onto the mainline 202.

While it's an improvement over what was there before (when the I-76 & US 422 interchanges were completely separate from one another); I do agree that the on-ramp to US 422 westbound should've been constructed with 2 lanes rather than one.

One way to bypass this bottleneck (if one's already approaching the interchange along I-76 westbound) would be to use 202 South to PA 252 North (Valley Forge Road), reverse direction & use 202 northbound as a means to get in US 422 westbound.

Quote from: Beltway on June 03, 2017, 10:57:10 PM

Quote from: qguy on June 03, 2017, 10:36:07 PM

Quote from: MASTERNC on June 03, 2017, 08:59:09 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 02, 2017, 09:30:49 PM
A mini version of that was built about 10 years ago to connect southbound US-422 to eastbound I-76.  Will they ever build a northbound version of that?  It would be a big help in bypassing US-202.

I will grant that with the railroad bridge over I-76, that it would take a fairly long and high flyover bridge to pass over I-76 and the railroad.

Probably won't be done, which is a shame given the number of truck rollover accidents they've had on the tight loop ramps from I-76 WB to US 202 or US 422.

They should also widen the ramp to US 422 from I-76/US 202 SB to two lanes.  That is a major bottleneck, even on weekends.

I worked at the nearby PennDOT District 8-0 office when this complex was completed. It was a HUGE improvement over the previous configuration and traffic conditions, but that ramp was congested from Day 1.

PennDOT District 6-0 office?

Yup, 6-0. (Brain-freeze.)

Quote from: PHLBOS on June 09, 2017, 08:56:28 AM

Quote from: Beltway on June 03, 2017, 10:57:10 PMThe upgrade was a major improvement, but traffic from westbound I-76 to westbound US-422 still has to use a segment of US-202.  A direct ramp could bypass that.

Actually, the current configuration (https://www.google.com/maps/place/King+of+Prussia,+PA/@40.08218,-75.4014998,16.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89c694352c6e632d:0xfa099731bfc15395!8m2!3d40.1012856!4d-75.3835525), while parallel to southbound 202, is indeed a separate ramp for both westbound 422 & Swedesford Road.  It's not a collector-distributor road that feeds back onto the mainline 202.

While it's an improvement over what was there before (when the I-76 & US 422 interchanges were completely separate from one another); I do agree that the on-ramp to US 422 westbound should've been constructed with 2 lanes rather than one.

Yes, I realize that effectively there is at least one lane of ramp connection from WB I-76 to WB US-422.  But it has to pass thru a loop ramp exiting WB I-76.  Unlike the reverse movement it is not high capacity and is not high speed.  I will grant that there may not be enough space to add a second lane, considering the adjacent development.

My proposal might not have adequate space available either, and there is the issue of how to tie it into US-422, it might require a flyover bridge 1,500 to 2,000 feet long.

Expensive any way you look at it.

Quote from: qguy on June 09, 2017, 09:26:13 AM

Quote from: Beltway on June 03, 2017, 10:57:10 PM

Quote from: qguy on June 03, 2017, 10:36:07 PM
I worked at the nearby PennDOT District 8-0 office when this complex was completed. It was a HUGE improvement over the previous configuration and traffic conditions, but that ramp was congested from Day 1.

PennDOT District 6-0 office?

Yup, 6-0. (Brain-freeze.)

No big deal ... I worked there 1974-1977.  :-) 

Back then it was in Radnor on North Radnor-Chester Road.  I wonder if that building next to the TD Bank is the original building.

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 12:21:25 PM

Quote from: qguy on June 09, 2017, 09:26:13 AM

Quote from: Beltway on June 03, 2017, 10:57:10 PM

Quote from: qguy on June 03, 2017, 10:36:07 PM
I worked at the nearby PennDOT District 8-0 office when this complex was completed. It was a HUGE improvement over the previous configuration and traffic conditions, but that ramp was congested from Day 1.

PennDOT District 6-0 office?

Yup, 6-0. (Brain-freeze.)

No big deal ... I worked there 1974-1977.  :-) 

Back then it was in Radnor on North Radnor-Chester Road.  I wonder if that building next to the TD Bank is the original building.

Didn't know that; how'd I miss it?

Have you been to the district office since they moved to King of Prussia? Envious employees in other districts call it the "glass palace." There are some dramatic meeting rooms on each floor at the narrow ends of the diamond-shaped building, particularly on the upper floors with expansive views. One downside–the interior gut-renovation must have been designed by a bunch of men only, because (of course) there are absolutely no closets! No coat closets, no storage space except the basement. Nothing.

**We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.**

Quote from: qguy on June 09, 2017, 01:19:38 PM
One downside–the interior gut-renovation must have been designed by a bunch of men only, because (of course) there are absolutely no closets! No coat closets, no storage space except the basement. Nothing.

I'm a man, and I highly value closet space.

Workers are envious of meeting rooms with views?  Pfft.  A decent restaurant would be a true matter of jealousy.

Quote from: qguy on June 09, 2017, 01:19:38 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 12:21:25 PM

Quote from: qguy on June 09, 2017, 09:26:13 AM

Quote from: Beltway on June 03, 2017, 10:57:10 PM

Quote from: qguy on June 03, 2017, 10:36:07 PM
I worked at the nearby PennDOT District 8-0 office when this complex was completed. It was a HUGE improvement over the previous configuration and traffic conditions, but that ramp was congested from Day 1.

PennDOT District 6-0 office?

Yup, 6-0. (Brain-freeze.)

No big deal ... I worked there 1974-1977.  :-) 

Back then it was in Radnor on North Radnor-Chester Road.  I wonder if that building next to the TD Bank is the original building.

Didn't know that; how'd I miss it?

Have you been to the district office since they moved to King of Prussia? Envious employees in other districts call it the "glass palace." There are some dramatic meeting rooms on each floor at the narrow ends of the diamond-shaped building, particularly on the upper floors with expansive views. One downside– the interior gut-renovation must have been designed by a bunch of men only, because (of course) there are absolutely no closets! No coat closets, no storage space except the basement. Nothing.

I have driven by it but have not been inside the building.  Ever since at least 9/11 nearly any major office building will have security restricted access.  Not like in the old days when you could just walk in.

I surmise that other districts always have had issues with 6-0.

Back when I worked for PennDOT in the 1970s, I heard a PennDOT anecdote from one of their maintenance engineers.  There was a statewide meeting of PennDOT maintenance engineers in Harrisburg, and there was a forum where different ones could speak and discuss their local problems.  One of the St. Davids District 6-0 (Philadelphia and the four surrounding counties) engineers was speaking, and a loud voice interrupted him, someone from western Pennsylvania, and said, "As far as I'm concerned, we ought to build a fence around District 6-0, and give the whole damn thing to New Jersey!"  This is a true story, and I think it showed the attitude toward Philadelphia that existed in other parts of the state. 

Has it changed since then?  Would New Jersey have taken the offer?

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 03:43:56 PM
One of the St. Davids District 6-0 (Philadelphia and the four surrounding counties) engineers was speaking, and a loud voice interrupted him, someone from western Pennsylvania, and said, "As far as I'm concerned, we ought to build a fence around District 6-0, and give the whole damn thing to New Jersey!"  This is a true story, and I think it showed the attitude toward Philadelphia that existed in other parts of the state.

I don't take that as anything more than an expression of the petty frustrations of someone irritated by a discussion that was irrelevant to him personally.

Now as to the issue of intrastate infighting in general, here's what I've observed from various Pennsylvanians: (their sentiments, not mine)

- Philadelphia city dwellers think their dreams of a world-class transit-oriented nirvana are being shackled by concessions made to car-dependent suburbanites

- More broadly, people in greater Philadelphia (city and suburbs) believe they're carrying the dead weight of roughly 60 worthless, dying counties

- Outside the Philadelphia metro but within about 100 miles (Harrisburg, Reading, Allentown) attitudes toward Philadelphia aren't entirely negative, as personal and professional ties to the Philadelphia area abound, but there's a general sense that tax dollars are being siphoned to pay for transit and "Philly graft"

- Among many rural Pennsylvanians, Philadelphia is generally despised as a black hole that sucks up their hard-earned tax dollars and doesn't share their values

- I haven't encountered nearly as many anti-Philadelphia attitudes in Pittsburgh–except in a superficial sports rivalry sense...or perhaps out of concern that Pittsburgh is slightly behind Philadelphia in terms of revitalization and growth, and Harrisburg isn't doing enough to help

Quote from: briantroutman on June 09, 2017, 06:08:00 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 03:43:56 PM
One of the St. Davids District 6-0 (Philadelphia and the four surrounding counties) engineers was speaking, and a loud voice interrupted him, someone from western Pennsylvania, and said, "As far as I'm concerned, we ought to build a fence around District 6-0, and give the whole damn thing to New Jersey!"  This is a true story, and I think it showed the attitude toward Philadelphia that existed in other parts of the state.

I don't take that as anything more than an expression of the petty frustrations of someone irritated by a discussion that was irrelevant to him personally.

I  heard a number of statements at 6-0 regarding resentments from other parts of the state, regarding perceived funding inequities.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 09, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Now as to the issue of intrastate infighting in general, here's what I've observed from various Pennsylvanians: (their sentiments, not mine)

- Philadelphia city dwellers think their dreams of a world-class transit-oriented nirvana are being shackled by concessions made to car-dependent suburbanites

- More broadly, people in greater Philadelphia (city and suburbs) believe they're carrying the dead weight of roughly 60 worthless, dying counties

- Outside the Philadelphia metro but within about 100 miles (Harrisburg, Reading, Allentown) attitudes toward Philadelphia aren't entirely negative, as personal and professional ties to the Philadelphia area abound, but there's a general sense that tax dollars are being siphoned to pay for transit and "Philly graft"

- Among many rural Pennsylvanians, Philadelphia is generally despised as a black hole that sucks up their hard-earned tax dollars and doesn't share their values

I would say that the above quote is a pretty accurate summation.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 09, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
- I haven't encountered nearly as many anti-Philadelphia attitudes in Pittsburgh–except in a superficial sports rivalry sense...or perhaps out of concern that Pittsburgh is slightly behind Philadelphia in terms of revitalization and growth, and Harrisburg isn't doing enough to help

Although Philadelphia city and metro is -much- more populous than Pittsburgh.

I read with some amusement some articles and their blogs in the respective online newspapers, it is pretty much what I saw in the 1970s.

Lot of civic pride in both areas, considering the major businesses, major colleges, and major history. Big cities that are well-known around the world.

The difference being that in Pittsburgh it is fairly pure "rah-rah boosterism" about their area, while in Philadelphia many people seem to have a "love-hate relationship" with their area, whereby that there is both a lot of pride and boosterism, and a lot of sharp criticism of the area.

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 09:20:19 PM

Quote from: briantroutman on June 09, 2017, 06:08:00 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 03:43:56 PM
One of the St. Davids District 6-0 (Philadelphia and the four surrounding counties) engineers was speaking, and a loud voice interrupted him, someone from western Pennsylvania, and said, "As far as I'm concerned, we ought to build a fence around District 6-0, and give the whole damn thing to New Jersey!"  This is a true story, and I think it showed the attitude toward Philadelphia that existed in other parts of the state.

I don't take that as anything more than an expression of the petty frustrations of someone irritated by a discussion that was irrelevant to him personally.

I  heard a number of statements at 6-0 regarding resentments from other parts of the state, regarding perceived funding inequities.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 09, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
Now as to the issue of intrastate infighting in general, here's what I've observed from various Pennsylvanians: (their sentiments, not mine)

- Philadelphia city dwellers think their dreams of a world-class transit-oriented nirvana are being shackled by concessions made to car-dependent suburbanites

- More broadly, people in greater Philadelphia (city and suburbs) believe they're carrying the dead weight of roughly 60 worthless, dying counties

- Outside the Philadelphia metro but within about 100 miles (Harrisburg, Reading, Allentown) attitudes toward Philadelphia aren't entirely negative, as personal and professional ties to the Philadelphia area abound, but there's a general sense that tax dollars are being siphoned to pay for transit and "Philly graft"

- Among many rural Pennsylvanians, Philadelphia is generally despised as a black hole that sucks up their hard-earned tax dollars and doesn't share their values

I would say that the above quote is a pretty accurate summation.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 09, 2017, 06:08:00 PM
- I haven't encountered nearly as many anti-Philadelphia attitudes in Pittsburgh–except in a superficial sports rivalry sense...or perhaps out of concern that Pittsburgh is slightly behind Philadelphia in terms of revitalization and growth, and Harrisburg isn't doing enough to help

Although Philadelphia city and metro is -much- more populous than Pittsburgh.

I read with some amusement some articles and their blogs in the respective online newspapers, it is pretty much what I saw in the 1970s.

Lot of civic pride in both areas, considering the major businesses, major colleges, and major history. Big cities that are well-known around the world.

The difference being that in Pittsburgh it is fairly pure "rah-rah boosterism" about their area, while in Philadelphia many people seem to have a "love-hate relationship" with their area, whereby that there is both a lot of pride and boosterism, and a lot of sharp criticism of the area.

I think the comments here are a generally accurate description of the attitudes of many across the state. That can't help but penetrate the various PennDOT organizations to some degree.

Within PennDOT, there is a general anti-urban sentiment among employees in the rural counties. This is much moreso in the PennDOT county maintenance organizations. (As an instructive aside for any who may not know, the districts are numbered 1-0, 2-0, and so on, and the county maintenance organizations within each district are numbered 1-1, 1-2, etc., 2-1, 2-2, etc., and so on for each district.)

The employees in the districts are much more white-collar and tend not to be as anti-urban. The employees in the county maintenance organizations are much more blue-collar and tend to be more anti-urban. (Of course, I know that correlation does not imply causation.) The employees in the county maintenance organizations tend to think that District 6-0 (the five counties in southeast PA, including Philadelphia) sucks up an inordinate percentage of PennDOT resources, starving the other districts of their rightful due.

Of course, from my experience speaking with, and observing conversations of, many PennDOT employees across the state at various conferences and venues (and visits to all of the district offices and most of the county maintenance offices), invariably those with the most bitter attitudes had little grasp of the magnitude of the infrastructure and workload in District 6-0 compared with the rest of the state. For example, District 6-0 has a third of all of the state's signal lights and over a third of the state's lane miles. The statistics are similar for just about any metric one would examine (e.g.–population, interacting organizations and stakeholders, utilities, railroads, you name it). The project managers in all of the other districts are responsible for managing five to ten projects each. In District 6-0, the project managers manage 20 to 30 each. With no difference in pay. Pennsylvania has no cost-of-living pay adjustment either, so since it's far more expensive to live in southeast Pennsylvania as compared with, say, Fayette County, the employees in the rural areas earn more in terms of purchasing power.

As is often the case in these types of things, most of those with chips on their shoulders have never been to the place they're angry about and haven't witnessed the magnitude of the workload there.

District 6-0 employees would say that they are carrying the rest of the state, not the other way around.

I used to laugh when I heard some of the conversations.

Quote from: qguy on June 10, 2017, 01:17:56 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 09:20:19 PM
Although Philadelphia city and metro is -much- more populous than Pittsburgh.

I read with some amusement some articles and their blogs in the respective online newspapers, it is pretty much what I saw in the 1970s.

Lot of civic pride in both areas, considering the major businesses, major colleges, and major history. Big cities that are well-known around the world.

The difference being that in Pittsburgh it is fairly pure "rah-rah boosterism" about their area, while in Philadelphia many people seem to have a "love-hate relationship" with their area, whereby that there is both a lot of pride and boosterism, and a lot of sharp criticism of the area.

I think the comments here are a generally accurate description of the attitudes of many across the state. That can't help but penetrate the various PennDOT organizations to some degree.

Within PennDOT, there is a general anti-urban sentiment among employees in the rural counties. This is much moreso in the PennDOT county maintenance organizations. (As an instructive aside for any who may not know, the districts are numbered 1-0, 2-0, and so on, and the county maintenance organizations within each district are numbered 1-1, 1-2, etc., 2-1, 2-2, etc., and so on for each district.)

The employees in the districts are much more white-collar and tend not to be as anti-urban. The employees in the county maintenance organizations are much more blue-collar and tend to be more anti-urban. (Of course, I know that correlation does not imply causation.) The employees in the county maintenance organizations tend to think that District 6-0 (the five counties in southeast PA, including Philadelphia) sucks up an inordinate percentage of PennDOT resources, starving the other districts of their rightful due.

Of course, from my experience speaking with, and observing conversations of, many PennDOT employees across the state at various conferences and venues (and visits to all of the district offices and most of the county maintenance offices), invariably those with the most bitter attitudes had little grasp of the magnitude of the infrastructure and workload in District 6-0 compared with the rest of the state. For example, District 6-0 has a third of all of the state's signal lights and over a third of the state's lane miles. The statistics are similar for just about any metric one would examine (e.g.–population, interacting organizations and stakeholders, utilities, railroads, you name it). The project managers in all of the other districts are responsible for managing five to ten projects each. In District 6-0, the project managers manage 20 to 30 each. With no difference in pay. Pennsylvania has no cost-of-living pay adjustment either, so since it's far more expensive to live in southeast Pennsylvania as compared with, say, Fayette County, the employees in the rural areas earn more in terms of purchasing power.

As is often the case in these types of things, most of those with chips on their shoulders have never been to the place they're angry about and haven't witnessed the magnitude of the workload there.

District 6-0 employees would say that they are carrying the rest of the state, not the other way around.

I used to laugh when I heard some of the conversations.

The P3 bridge replacement project awarded in 2012 only provided a handful of replacements in District 6 (Philadelphia and the four surrounding counties).

"The project is an initiative to replace 558 aging bridges throughout Pennsylvania. Replacing the bridges will provide motorists with new, modern structures and allow PennDOT to remove them from their structurally deficient list. "
http://parapidbridges.com/projectoverview.html
That certainly seems unfair to District 6.

Central PA benefited mightily in allocated Appalachian Development Highway System (ADHS) corridors, and used the high funding rates (90% federal) and large federal funding pot in the 1960s thru 1990s to build most of these highways to Interstate standards (segments of US-220, US-15, US-22, US-322, US-219).

Also, how in the world did 3/4 of the area of Pennsylvania get added to the Appalachian Region?
https://www.arc.gov/images/programs/transp/ADHSMap9-30-2016.pdf

The upper half of the Appalachian Mountain counties in Virginia didn't even get included in the Appalachian Region.

Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 02:30:28 PM
Also, how in the world did 3/4 of the area of Pennsylvania get added to the Appalachian Region?
https://www.arc.gov/images/programs/transp/ADHSMap9-30-2016.pdf

The upper half of the Appalachian Mountain counties in Virginia didn't even get included in the Appalachian Region.

If I were to bet on that, is I'd say Shuster Junior probably had something to do with it.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 10, 2017, 03:42:00 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 02:30:28 PM
Also, how in the world did 3/4 of the area of Pennsylvania get added to the Appalachian Region?
https://www.arc.gov/images/programs/transp/ADHSMap9-30-2016.pdf

The upper half of the Appalachian Mountain counties in Virginia didn't even get included in the Appalachian Region.

If I were to bet on that, is say Shuster Junior probably had something to do with it.

Yeah, other than West Virginia at 100%, Pennsylvania got by far the largest percentage of ARC designation.

And those upper Virginia counties are prosperous enough that they probably would have gotten laughed at if they requested ARC designation.

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 09:20:19 PM
The difference being that in Pittsburgh it is fairly pure "rah-rah boosterism" about their area, while in Philadelphia many people seem to have a "love-hate relationship" with their area, whereby that there is both a lot of pride and boosterism, and a lot of sharp criticism of the area.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I get the sense from many Philadelphians that they are, on the surface, very proud and defensive of their city, and yet at the same time underneath, they have a certain inferiority complex about being in the shadow of New York.

On the other hand, my sense is that Pittsburgh is far enough removed from the Northeastern intelligentsia that its down-to-earth people are happy to be proud of their great city for what it is.

Again, this is just one person's observation.

Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 02:30:28 PM
Also, how in the world did 3/4 of the area of Pennsylvania get added to the Appalachian Region?

I can't comment intelligently on Virginia, but if you compare the ARC map of Pennsylvania with other maps showing population and economic trends, there's a high degree of overlap between the designated ARC region and the area of the state that has (and continues) to see economic prospects and population decline. So that (to me) would suggest that the designation of those areas was appropriate. You could argue that this area's continued decline shows that cart-before-horse highway building doesn't create jobs–and then again you could also speculate how much worse the situation would be if not for those efforts.

The notable exceptions are Centre county–which continues to grow on the strength of Penn State–and some of the Pocono counties, which had a short boom of exurban NY commuters in recent years but are expected to level off and perhaps even decline in the coming decades.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 10, 2017, 03:42:00 PM
If I were to bet on that, is I'd say Shuster Junior probably had something to do with it.

The king of pork barrel Bud may have been, but I don't think you can pin this on Shuster–Sr. or Jr. (Bill). The Appalachian Regional Commission was created in 1963 by President Kennedy–a decade before Sr. was first elected to Congress.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 10, 2017, 04:45:33 PM
The king of pork barrel Bud may have been, but I don’t think you can pin this on Shuster—Sr. or Jr. (Bill). The Appalachian Regional Commission was created in 1963 by President Kennedy—a decade before Sr. was first elected to Congress.

Ah, OK.  I had taken it to be that this was a newly created area, which I now see is clearly not!

Quote from: briantroutman on June 10, 2017, 04:45:33 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 09, 2017, 09:20:19 PM
The difference being that in Pittsburgh it is fairly pure "rah-rah boosterism" about their area, while in Philadelphia many people seem to have a "love-hate relationship" with their area, whereby that there is both a lot of pride and boosterism, and a lot of sharp criticism of the area.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I get the sense from many Philadelphians that they are, on the surface, very proud and defensive of their city, and yet at the same time underneath, they have a certain inferiority complex about being in the shadow of New York.

And in the shadow of Washington, Baltimore and Boston as well, considerably smaller cities than Philadelphia, but all of which have their own distinct national identities and impacts.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 10, 2017, 04:45:33 PM
On the other hand, my sense is that Pittsburgh is far enough removed from the Northeastern intelligentsia that its down-to-earth people are happy to be proud of their great city for what it is.

And far enough west that it is not considered Northeastern, but is Midwestern.  They also rebounded from the massive decline of the steel industry from the 1950s to the 1970s, an industry which had a massive presence there, and restructured the economy toward service businesses and expansion of colleges and universities.

Quote from: briantroutman on June 10, 2017, 04:45:33 PM

Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 02:30:28 PM
Also, how in the world did 3/4 of the area of Pennsylvania get added to the Appalachian Region?

I can't comment intelligently on Virginia, but if you compare the ARC map of Pennsylvania with other maps showing population and economic trends, there's a high degree of overlap between the designated ARC region and the area of the state that has (and continues) to see economic prospects and population decline. So that (to me) would suggest that the designation of those areas was appropriate.

But all of western PA including Pittsburgh and Erie?  Including the Scranton / Wilkes-Barre area?  To within about 10 miles of Harrisburg?

Could someone make a map out of this. It would be curious to see how the looks, and seeing the worst region (and the best).

Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 07:02:25 PMAnd far enough west that it is not considered Northeastern, but is Midwestern.  They also rebounded from the massive decline of the steel industry from the 1950s to the 1970s, an industry which had a massive presence there, and restructured the economy toward service businesses and expansion of colleges and universities.

Honestly, it boggles my mind that a city located in one of the 13 original colonies and longitudinally east of the entire state of Florida could be considered Midwestern. Sure, Pittsburgh is close enough to the actual Midwest that it does have a slight Midwestern influence in its culture, but if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern, 99 of them would say no, and the other one wouldn't be sure. Personally, I think western Pennsylvania, western New York, western Maryland and the northern third of West Virginia are the "interior Northeast": not East Coast, but not Midwestern either. In fact, there seems to be more Appalachian than Midwestern cultural influence. I guess you could say that the interior Northeast is where the East Coast meets the Appalachians.

The boundary between the Northeast and Midwest is an indefinite one somewhere between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Assuming a downtown-to-downtown drive and an average speed of 60 MPH including stops, Pittsburgh is 4:02 from Washington DC, 4:08 from Baltimore, 5:04 from Philadelphia, and 6:09 from New York, but 7:40 from Chicago. Conversely, Cleveland is 5:43 from Chicago, but 6:12 from Washington DC, 6:15 from Baltimore, 7:11 from Philadelphia, and 7:42 from New York. This is important because driving distance to the East Coast cities versus Chicago is often used as a method of delineation between the Northeast and Midwest. On top of that, anything more than a roughly six-hour drive is considered "out of the way" for easy travel by most people.

Quote from: Gnutella on October 07, 2017, 03:43:18 AM

Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 07:02:25 PMAnd far enough west that it is not considered Northeastern, but is Midwestern.  They also rebounded from the massive decline of the steel industry from the 1950s to the 1970s, an industry which had a massive presence there, and restructured the economy toward service businesses and expansion of colleges and universities.

Honestly, it boggles my mind that a city located in one of the 13 original colonies and longitudinally east of the entire state of Florida could be considered Midwestern. Sure, Pittsburgh is close enough to the actual Midwest that it does have a slight Midwestern influence in its culture, but if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern, 99 of them would say no, and the other one wouldn't be sure. Personally, I think western Pennsylvania, western New York, western Maryland and the northern third of West Virginia are the "interior Northeast": not East Coast, but not Midwestern either. In fact, there seems to be more Appalachian than Midwestern cultural influence. I guess you could say that the interior Northeast is where the East Coast meets the Appalachians.
The boundary between the Northeast and Midwest is an indefinite one somewhere between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Assuming a downtown-to-downtown drive and an average speed of 60 MPH including stops, Pittsburgh is 4:02 from Washington DC, 4:08 from Baltimore, 5:04 from Philadelphia, and 6:09 from New York, but 7:40 from Chicago. Conversely, Cleveland is 5:43 from Chicago, but 6:12 from Washington DC, 6:15 from Baltimore, 7:11 from Philadelphia, and 7:42 from New York. This is important because driving distance to the East Coast cities versus Chicago is often used as a method of delineation between the Northeast and Midwest. On top of that, anything more than a roughly six-hour drive is considered "out of the way" for easy travel by most people.

"if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern,"

Relative geographic reference is an imprecise tool.  I grew up in central Florida and from there everything appears "up north".  When we moved to Virginia, over 900 miles to the north, that seemed to us to be "way up north".    :-/

Quote from: Beltway on October 07, 2017, 08:21:16 AM

Quote from: Gnutella on October 07, 2017, 03:43:18 AM

Quote from: Beltway on June 10, 2017, 07:02:25 PMAnd far enough west that it is not considered Northeastern, but is Midwestern.  They also rebounded from the massive decline of the steel industry from the 1950s to the 1970s, an industry which had a massive presence there, and restructured the economy toward service businesses and expansion of colleges and universities.

Honestly, it boggles my mind that a city located in one of the 13 original colonies and longitudinally east of the entire state of Florida could be considered Midwestern. Sure, Pittsburgh is close enough to the actual Midwest that it does have a slight Midwestern influence in its culture, but if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern, 99 of them would say no, and the other one wouldn't be sure. Personally, I think western Pennsylvania, western New York, western Maryland and the northern third of West Virginia are the "interior Northeast": not East Coast, but not Midwestern either. In fact, there seems to be more Appalachian than Midwestern cultural influence. I guess you could say that the interior Northeast is where the East Coast meets the Appalachians.
The boundary between the Northeast and Midwest is an indefinite one somewhere between Pittsburgh and Cleveland. Assuming a downtown-to-downtown drive and an average speed of 60 MPH including stops, Pittsburgh is 4:02 from Washington DC, 4:08 from Baltimore, 5:04 from Philadelphia, and 6:09 from New York, but 7:40 from Chicago. Conversely, Cleveland is 5:43 from Chicago, but 6:12 from Washington DC, 6:15 from Baltimore, 7:11 from Philadelphia, and 7:42 from New York. This is important because driving distance to the East Coast cities versus Chicago is often used as a method of delineation between the Northeast and Midwest. On top of that, anything more than a roughly six-hour drive is considered "out of the way" for easy travel by most people.

"if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern,"

Relative geographic reference is an imprecise tool.  I grew up in central Florida and from there everything appears "up north".  When we moved to Virginia, over 900 miles to the north, that seemed to us to be "way up north".    :-/

Nonetheless, Pittsburgh is a) located in a Northeastern state, b) almost 100 miles closer to New York than it is to Chicago, c) incorporated before 1776, and d) located in the Appalachian Mountains, so calling it a Midwestern city makes no sense at all.

Quote from: Gnutella on October 11, 2017, 07:01:44 AM

Quote from: Beltway on October 07, 2017, 08:21:16 AM
"if you ask 100 natives of Chicago if they consider Pittsburgh to be Midwestern,"
Relative geographic reference is an imprecise tool.  I grew up in central Florida and from there everything appears "up north".  When we moved to Virginia, over 900 miles to the north, that seemed to us to be "way up north".    :-/

Nonetheless, Pittsburgh is a) located in a Northeastern state, b) almost 100 miles closer to New York than it is to Chicago, c) incorporated before 1776, and d) located in the Appalachian Mountains, so calling it a Midwestern city makes no sense at all.

PA is over 300 miles east to west, and borders on Lake Erie, so calling all of it "Northeastern" can be questioned as it is in this thread.

Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.

They drink "pop" in Pittsburgh not "soda".  That should be the clincher.

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on October 11, 2017, 07:39:09 AM
They drink "pop" in Pittsburgh not "soda".  That should be the clincher.

A quick search shows many articles that have debated this topic, with a wide diversity of opinion on where Pittsburgh fits.  Some have said that is near the boundary between Northeastern and Midwestern, but the location of that 'boundary'  has been debated as well.

Quote from: Beltway on October 11, 2017, 07:13:54 AM
Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.

It is about 82 miles from the home stadium of the Allegheny County NFL team to the west portals of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70 and I-76).

From a geography standpoint, Pittsburgh and Western NY don't seem Midwest...but from a cultural and economic standpoint, those areas are much more Midwest than Northeast...and I think that's where this comes from.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 11, 2017, 11:46:03 AM

Quote from: Beltway on October 11, 2017, 07:13:54 AM
Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.

It is about 82 miles from the home stadium of the Allegheny County NFL team to the west portals of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70 and I-76).

I would put the base of Chestnut Ridge as the edge (about between Donegal & New Stanton) and say it's about 50 miles "as the crow flies"
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

On these forums? I'd like to see that; it almost seems impossible. Not that I'm doubting you - it's just hard to believe!)  :-o

Edit to add: found it! Them, actually. For the interested: Photo 1 (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8440.msg2183780#msg2183780") and Photo 2. (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19395.msg2194809#msg2194809")

Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 11, 2017, 01:44:31 PM
From a geography standpoint, Pittsburgh and Western NY don't seem Midwest...but from a cultural and economic standpoint, those areas are much more Midwest than Northeast...and I think that's where this comes from.

^^^^
This right here is the money line. Pittsburgh is demographically midwest, not geographically.

We can toss it back and forth on this forum for days, but demographers point to Pittsburgh as the first midwestern city one comes to as you move west from New York City. To be sure, it is a transitional city, but it's not part of the "east coast" complex.

And this does make sense historically. We often think that the original thirteen colonies always had the shapes that those states currently have, but that's not the case. Some did, but most did not. Even during the time of the revolution, in Pennsylvania the frontier was a wavy line down the middle of the state. And everything west of that was "the west," wilderness. The western borders had not yet been definitively established. Same with upstate New York. Pittsburgh was an outpost well beyond the frontier, not part of the colony/state proper.

So Pittsburgh being a midwest city does make a great deal of sense, in many ways.

Quote from: qguy on October 12, 2017, 06:51:55 AM

Quote from: jemacedo9 on October 11, 2017, 01:44:31 PM
From a geography standpoint, Pittsburgh and Western NY don't seem Midwest...but from a cultural and economic standpoint, those areas are much more Midwest than Northeast...and I think that's where this comes from.

^^^^
This right here is the money line. Pittsburgh is demographically midwest, not geographically.

We can toss it back and forth on this forum for days, but demographers point to Pittsburgh as the first midwestern city one comes to as you move west from New York City. To be sure, it is a transitional city, but it's not part of the "east coast" complex.

Yinz are a bunch of jagoffs :-)  but this is the closest answer about how and where Pittsburgh falls in the scheme of things. Then there is the whole "linguistic" thing about "Pittsburghese" and the Pittsburgh accent. For the most part, the way natives speak is more neutral midwestern (as opposed to say, a Boston accent or Southern), but there is enough difference and plenty of words that will flag someone as being from Western Pennsylvania. I can hear someone interviewed on the news and pretty quickly tell that the person is in or from Western Pa. I never did quite develop the nasal twang of a Pittsburgh native but I do pronounce and use a variety of Pittsburghese.   

QuoteAnd this does make sense historically. We often think that the original thirteen colonies always had the shapes that those states currently have, but that's not the case. Some did, but most did not. Even during the time of the revolution, in Pennsylvania the frontier was a wavy line down the middle of the state. And everything west of that was "the west," wilderness. The western borders had not yet been definitively established. Same with upstate New York. Pittsburgh was an outpost well beyond the frontier, not part of the colony/state proper.

So Pittsburgh being a midwest city does make a great deal of sense, in many ways.

Don't forget the dispute between Pennsylvania and Virginia over who "owned" the territory which today is Ohio. Virginia claimed everything from Tidewater to the Great Lakes. The western boundary of Pennsylvania was set by the charter granted to William Penn but it was a bit fuzzy. It took many years before the north-south line that today is the western edge of Pennsylvania was resolved. See http://www.virginiaplaces.org/boundaries/paboundary.html for a great discussion of this, complete with maps.

To bring this back to roads, there were two routes that were cut through the wilderness at the time -- Braddock's Road from Maryland through Fort Necessity to Fort Duquesne (later Fort Pitt), which later became U.S. 40 and PA 51, and Forbes Road from Fort Littleton to Fort Bedford, Fort Ligonier, and on to Fort Duquesne, which later became U.S. 30 (both with some variations).

Bruce in Blacksburg -- but a native of the 'Burgh

Quote from: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 01:10:05 AM

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

On these forums? I'd like to see that; it almost seems impossible. Not that I'm doubting you - it's just hard to believe!)  :-o

Edit to add: found it! Them, actually. For the interested: Photo 1 (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8440.msg2183780#msg2183780") and Photo 2. (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19395.msg2194809#msg2194809")

You can even make out the USX & Mellon towers on GSV zoomed in (this is more like what it looks to the naked eye, as opposed the zoom on those photos)
https://goo.gl/maps/TSwuvZLX78L2

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 12, 2017, 05:35:09 PM

Quote from: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 01:10:05 AM

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

On these forums? I'd like to see that; it almost seems impossible. Not that I'm doubting you - it's just hard to believe!)  :-o

Edit to add: found it! Them, actually. For the interested: Photo 1 (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8440.msg2183780#msg2183780") and Photo 2. (http://"https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19395.msg2194809#msg2194809")

You can even make out the USX & Mellon towers on GSV zoomed in (this is more like what it looks to the naked eye, as opposed the zoom on those photos)
https://goo.gl/maps/TSwuvZLX78L2

Thanks for that! I've lived in SW PA for all my almost 40 years (save for one year) and I've been on that stretch of PA-31 many, many times. I have never noticed the Towers in the distance. It makes me want to drive out that way now and check it out. (Well, not right now... it's dark...)

Quote from: BigRedDog on October 12, 2017, 07:16:18 PM
Thanks for that! I've lived in SW PA for all my almost 40 years (save for one year) and I've been on that stretch of PA-31 many, many times. I have never noticed the Towers in the distance. It makes me want to drive out that way now and check it out. (Well, not right now... it's dark...)

It has to be a pretty clear day.  If it's too cloudy or hazy, then you can't see it. 
I grew up about 5-6 miles north of there along the ridgeline, and there was an abandoned strip mine I could walk to from home that gave a vantage point you could see downtown (looked about the same with the naked eye - could see more with binoculars).
There was some massive downtown department store fire in the late 90's, and on the news people from up on the ridge called in to report they could see the smoke from up there.

Quote from: Mr_Northside on October 11, 2017, 06:05:18 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on October 11, 2017, 11:46:03 AM

Quote from: Beltway on October 11, 2017, 07:13:54 AM
Pittsburgh is almost 100 miles west of the Appalachian Mountains.

It is about 82 miles from the home stadium of the Allegheny County NFL team to the west portals of the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel on the Pennsylvania Turnpike (I-70 and I-76).

I would put the base of Chestnut Ridge as the edge (about between Donegal & New Stanton) and say it's about 50 miles "as the crow flies"
Someone on the forums captured a nice pic of some of the USX & Mellon towers (downtown PGH) that are visible from the decent of 3 mile hill (part of Chestnut Ridge, where PA-31 climbs the hill).

I used the Allegheny Mountain Tunnel portals because the ridgetop that the tunnel tubes pass under is also the Eastern Continental Divide. 

On the west side, the streams drain to the Allegheny, Ohio and ultimately the Mississippi Rivers and out to the Gulf of Mexico.

On the east side, the streams flow to the Juniata and Susquehanna Rivers, then the Chesapeake Bay and the Atlantic Ocean.