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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: ixnay on July 16, 2017, 04:48:14 PM

Title: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: ixnay on July 16, 2017, 04:48:14 PM
http://www.timesunion.com/7dayarchive/article/States-are-in-an-EZ-Pass-border-war-11289926.php

QuoteSummer is prime driving season, but New Yorkers who pay attention to their toll bills may be confused.
If you are taking the Massachusetts Turnpike to Boston, for instance, you'll pay more on your E-ZPass tag than your neighbors in the Bay State.
And if you want to hit the beach in Middletown, R.I., crossing the Newport Bridge will cost you $4, while Rhode Island residents pay 83 cents on their E-ZPass transponders. ...

The states appear to be stuck in neutral when it comes to resolving the dispute.

ixnay
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on July 16, 2017, 07:27:03 PM
The NYS Thruway has started charging more to motorists with out-of-state E-ZPases.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: Brandon on July 16, 2017, 08:22:30 PM
ISTHA does not discriminate between the state/agency of issue for an E-Z Pass.  All get the same 50% off the cash toll rate.  Indiana tried some of this BS a few years ago when they introduced iZoom (their E-Z Pass banding).  ISTHA told Indiana that they would start to charge Indiana E-Z Passes at the cash rate.  Indiana backed down and gave I-Pass users (of which there are more I-Pass users in Indiana than there are Indiana E-Z Pass users) the same discount (since discontinued for all ETC users).

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-04-23/news/0704220273_1_indiana-toll-road-transponders-zoom
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-06-15/news/0706150357_1_indiana-toll-road-transponders-electronic-tolling
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2017, 11:34:04 PM
Maryland, I am ashamed to say, engages in "transponder discrimination" (on most of the state's  toll crossings and toll roads, Maryland E-ZPass holders pay less than holders of non-Maryland transponders).

I think there should be a toll road users bill of rights enacted by Congress that would forbid "transponder discrimination."
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 17, 2017, 08:12:14 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2017, 11:34:04 PM
Maryland, I am ashamed to say, engages in "transponder discrimination" (on most of the state's  toll crossings and toll roads, Maryland E-ZPass holders pay less than holders of non-Maryland transponders).

I think there should be a toll road users bill of rights enacted by Congress that would forbid "transponder discrimination."
So far, transponder discrimination was able to stand legal challenges.. Logically, there is always an argument about cost of processing small transaction across different agencies.
And still I prefer transponder discrimination to administrative fees AET agencies love to impose...
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: SP Cook on July 17, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
"tax not me or the, but the man behind the tree". 

This is an issue, and, if we ever lose the fight to keep tolls off roads built to be free, it will get far worse.  Imagine a state selling a virtually free pass to state residents, but sticking it to everybody else.  Politicians, to the extent they care about anybody, only care about people that can vote for or against them.  The problem is that, eventually all of us are going to be out-of-state motorists.  The cost of a road trip could explode with confiscatory tolls in every state.  Not to mention the devistation it would cause to the trucking industry.  And their customers (you and me consumer).

Just looking at the websites, it seems that MA will sell a transponder to anybody, while NY provides discounts to state residents only, and past that, to residents of specific locations within the state.

As to WV and our corrupt turnpike administration, a WV EZ Pass charges $1.20 per toll, rather than $2.  You can also buy a yearly pass for $300.  Under the new governor's plan, tolls would go to $3, but a pass would go down to $15/year.  That is really dangerous if it sets a precedent all over the country.  Further, if you read the governor's proposal it moves the sale of passes from the turnpike (which will sell one to anybody) to the DMV as a part of the registration process (and thus to state residents only).

Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: wanderer2575 on July 17, 2017, 09:03:17 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
"tax not me or the, but the man behind the tree". 

This is an issue, and, if we ever lose the fight to keep tolls off roads built to be free, it will get far worse.  Imagine a state selling a virtually free pass to state residents, but sticking it to everybody else.  Politicians, to the extent they care about anybody, only care about people that can vote for or against them. 

Not any different than municipalities that impose taxes on hotel rooms and rental cars -- taxes that will essentially be paid only by nonresidents.  I'm not arguing in favor of transponder discrimination; simply pointing out that it's not setting any precedent.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2017, 11:34:04 PM
Maryland, I am ashamed to say, engages in "transponder discrimination" (on most of the state's  toll crossings and toll roads, Maryland E-ZPass holders pay less than holders of non-Maryland transponders).

I think there should be a toll road users bill of rights enacted by Congress that would forbid "transponder discrimination."

Perhaps the basic issue is that, like taxes that are split up into a zillion different pieces (sales tax, income tax, property tax, gas tax, tobacco tax, etc.) instead of just presenting each person with one grand total, revenue from transponders is also split up into multiple components -- monthly/annual service charges, interest earned on prepaid account balances, and the actual tolls.  The turnpike authority counts on getting all these components.  If you're using an out-of-state transponder, the authority loses those first two parts of what it's built into its revenue model.  They need to make that up somewhere else; hence an increase in tolls for those users.  Again, I'm not necessarily defending it, but just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that angle.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: spooky on July 17, 2017, 10:30:44 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 17, 2017, 09:03:17 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2017, 08:46:22 AM
"tax not me or the, but the man behind the tree". 

This is an issue, and, if we ever lose the fight to keep tolls off roads built to be free, it will get far worse.  Imagine a state selling a virtually free pass to state residents, but sticking it to everybody else.  Politicians, to the extent they care about anybody, only care about people that can vote for or against them. 

Not any different than municipalities that impose taxes on hotel rooms and rental cars -- taxes that will essentially be paid only by nonresidents.  I'm not arguing in favor of transponder discrimination; simply pointing out that it's not setting any precedent.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on July 16, 2017, 11:34:04 PM
Maryland, I am ashamed to say, engages in "transponder discrimination" (on most of the state's  toll crossings and toll roads, Maryland E-ZPass holders pay less than holders of non-Maryland transponders).

I think there should be a toll road users bill of rights enacted by Congress that would forbid "transponder discrimination."

Perhaps the basic issue is that, like taxes that are split up into a zillion different pieces (sales tax, income tax, property tax, gas tax, tobacco tax, etc.) instead of just presenting each person with one grand total, revenue from transponders is also split up into multiple components -- monthly/annual service charges, interest earned on prepaid account balances, and the actual tolls.  The turnpike authority counts on getting all these components.  If you're using an out-of-state transponder, the authority loses those first two parts of what it's built into its revenue model.  They need to make that up somewhere else; hence an increase in tolls for those users.  Again, I'm not necessarily defending it, but just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that angle.


You can take the devil's advocate argument a step further and say that it is not an increase in tolls for out-of-state users, it is a discount on tolls for in-state users. 

I believe this was the model in Massachusetts before the switch to AET - the harbor tunnels were a set price for cash toll payments, but Mass FastLane/EZ-Pass users got a "discount" of 50 cents off that price.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2017, 11:01:47 AM
No need for new legislation...the Constitution already forbids state border tarriffs and the Interstate Commerce Clause should be sufficient for these situations.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 17, 2017, 11:11:51 AM
Quote from: AlexandriaVA on July 17, 2017, 11:01:47 AM
No need for new legislation...the Constitution already forbids state border tarriffs and the Interstate Commerce Clause should be sufficient for these situations.
More difficult than that... for example:
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-rid-1_09-cv-00153/pdf/USCOURTS-rid-1_09-cv-00153-0.pdf
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: PHLBOS on July 17, 2017, 12:01:28 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on July 16, 2017, 07:27:03 PM
The NYS Thruway has started charging more to motorists with out-of-state E-ZPases.
I have to wonder if such was in response to Massachusetts instituting transponder discrimination when the Mass Pike converted to AET last fall.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2017, 08:46:22 AMJust looking at the websites, it seems that MA will sell a transponder to anybody, while NY provides discounts to state residents only, and past that, to residents of specific locations within the state.
Not quite.  When I applied for a MA E-ZPass account earlier this year (I reside in PA); I initially received a rejection letter from MassDOT due to my residence.  I wrote back stating my reasoning for applying for a MA-issued E-ZPass (I make several trips along the Mass Pike every year due to having family that live in MA) and they eventually (or reluctantly) approved my application.  So getting an instant approval from a remote out-of-state agency isn't always a guarantee.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 17, 2017, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 17, 2017, 12:01:28 PM

Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2017, 08:46:22 AMJust looking at the websites, it seems that MA will sell a transponder to anybody, while NY provides discounts to state residents only, and past that, to residents of specific locations within the state.
Not quite.  When I applied for a MA E-ZPass account earlier this year (I reside in PA); I initially received a rejection letter from MassDOT due to my residence.  I wrote back stating my reasoning for applying for a MA-issued E-ZPass (I make several trips along the Mass Pike every year due to having family that live in MA) and they eventually (or reluctantly) approved my application.  So getting an instant approval from a remote out-of-state agency isn't always a guarantee.
Which is, actually, an interesting point. Ability to acquire multiple transponders was one of legal reasons allowing discrimination to stand.
On the other hand, RI case I linked earlier, is where one has to have RI transponder AND be RI resident (RI mailing address, I assume) to get the discounted rate.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: Brandon on July 17, 2017, 12:28:19 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 17, 2017, 12:01:28 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2017, 08:46:22 AMJust looking at the websites, it seems that MA will sell a transponder to anybody, while NY provides discounts to state residents only, and past that, to residents of specific locations within the state.

Not quite.  When I applied for a MA E-ZPass account earlier this year (I reside in PA); I initially received a rejection letter from MassDOT due to my residence.  I wrote back stating my reasoning for applying for a MA-issued E-ZPass (I make several trips along the Mass Pike every year due to having family that live in MA) and they eventually (or reluctantly) approved my application.  So getting an instant approval from a remote out-of-state agency isn't always a guarantee.

On the other hand, ISTHA will hand out an I-Pass (E-Z Pass) to just about anyone, anywhere in the US.  There are even folks in California who get one as long as they think they'll spend enough time in Chicagoland to make it useful.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: roadman on July 17, 2017, 02:57:05 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 17, 2017, 12:01:28 PM
Quote from: 02 Park Ave on July 16, 2017, 07:27:03 PM
The NYS Thruway has started charging more to motorists with out-of-state E-ZPases.
I have to wonder if such was in response to Massachusetts instituting transponder discrimination when the Mass Pike converted to AET last fall.
Massachusetts has always had "transponder discrimination" since they first adapted their original "(blatant commercial advertising) Fast Lane" system to accept E-ZPass transponders some years ago
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: RobbieL2415 on July 17, 2017, 10:39:10 PM
I have an MTA B&T Ez-pass over a MASSDOT Ez-pass for one reason: the B&T and NYSTA discounts are flat-out better. Especially when NYC bridges are $15-20 for the eastbound crossing.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: jp the roadgeek on July 17, 2017, 10:45:11 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 17, 2017, 10:39:10 PM
I have an MTA B&T Ez-pass over a MASSDOT Ez-pass for one reason: the B&T and NYSTA discounts are flat-out better. Especially when NYC bridges are $15-20 for the eastbound crossing.

I went with the MassDOT one because there's no fee, I don't use it that often, and it's usually for the Mass Pike when I do. 
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: J N Winkler on July 18, 2017, 12:25:07 AM
Quote from: kalvado on July 17, 2017, 08:12:14 AMSo far, transponder discrimination was able to stand legal challenges.. Logically, there is always an argument about cost of processing small transaction across different agencies.

And still I prefer transponder discrimination to administrative fees AET agencies love to impose...

Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 17, 2017, 09:03:17 AMPerhaps the basic issue is that, like taxes that are split up into a zillion different pieces (sales tax, income tax, property tax, gas tax, tobacco tax, etc.) instead of just presenting each person with one grand total, revenue from transponders is also split up into multiple components -- monthly/annual service charges, interest earned on prepaid account balances, and the actual tolls.  The turnpike authority counts on getting all these components.  If you're using an out-of-state transponder, the authority loses those first two parts of what it's built into its revenue model.  They need to make that up somewhere else; hence an increase in tolls for those users.  Again, I'm not necessarily defending it, but just playing devil's advocate and pointing out that angle.

These devil's-advocate arguments look convincing on the surface but don't really hold up.  Taking as an example an occasional user who runs $5 a month in tolls and has a $10 replenishment threshold (not the default with ISTHA, where I get my E-ZPass, but still selectable by the user), 5% interest for one year on $10 is 50c, barely the amount of a single tollbooth transit.  E-ZPass may have a higher cost basis because of legacy overheads (e.g. active transponders which have to be distributed with batteries and require periodic replacement), but there is no reason for the marginal cost of processing a toll charge from a foreign E-ZPass to be more than a very small fraction of the toll charge.  In the newly created Central States interoperability consortium (K-Tag, PikePass, TxTag, TollTag, EZTag), the cost of processing a toll charge for a foreign transponder (passive type) is 5c plus 3% of the toll (minimum toll on any of the systems involved is probably over 25c by now).  The amounts involved in ongoing instances of transponder discrimination are much, much greater.

Considering that the cost of manual toll collection runs to around one-third of the tolls collected, it makes economic sense for turnpike agencies--even ones with E-ZPass' legacy overheads--to eat some or all of the marginal costs of interoperability for foreign transponders in order to promote transponder takeup and thereby keep more of the tolls for themselves.  That, as has already been pointed out in this thread, is a business decision some E-ZPass agencies have made even though the E-ZPass consortium itself allows transponder discrimination.  The Central States one does not.

S.P. Cook's point is key.  The instances of transponder discrimination that exist are designed to satisfy local political interests ("commuter as voter," particularly in the case of Rhode Island and the NYC MTA).  Measures such as linking transponder issue to state of residency represent metastasis of bad policy.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: Duke87 on July 18, 2017, 12:32:03 AM
I personally accept the practice as a general reality of traveling out of state and don't concern myself too much with it. Simple reason being, in theory, it's all a wash in the end.

When people argue in favor of forcing agencies to stop charging higher rates to out-of-state tags, the general presumption seems to be that the current discounted rate will be applied to everyone and drivers will save money while the toll agency loses revenue. But, this is a false presumption because anyone who operates a toll road has a budget to balance - and therefore giving a discounted rate to everyone by necessity will raise said rate over what it currently is. This will be obfuscated by the fact that the rate hike won't be immediate, but it will impact the magnitude of future hikes. So ultimately we're not talking about $4 in-state/$6 out-of-state versus $4 for everyone... we're talking about $4 in-state/$6 out-of-state versus $4.25 for everyone.

Realistically, everyone engaging in transponder discrimination is more or less just as fair as no one doing it. Though everyone doing it favors drivers who remain mostly local while no one doing it favors drivers who travel a lot. Meanwhile the current situation where some places do it and others don't specifically favors drivers from places that do, while drivers in places that don't are stuck paying slightly higher tolls because their agency won't give them a larger discount at the expense of out-of-state drivers.





Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 08:30:44 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 18, 2017, 12:32:03 AM
I personally accept the practice as a general reality of traveling out of state and don't concern myself too much with it. Simple reason being, in theory, it's all a wash in the end.
You're somewhat right here.
Somewhat - because many toll agencies are considered cash cows, so they are not balancing a budget - but someone determines how much funds can be extracted from motorists.
You may say that such approach is the core approach of capitalism. But, unlike "regular" capitalism, it is difficult (if possible) to shop out for better road. 
So motorists end up paying for remote untolled roads/bridges they don't use, public transportation, canal maintenance - and what not. Which makes entire toll deal stinky like a skunk.

Now, a more interesting question - why EZpass users deserve the discount to begin with?
I can see few reasons:
1. Early push to have EZpass widely adopted. By now that is basically irrelevant.
2. Easier and cheaper toll collection. Does that deserve a discount? Maybe - but it makes sense if charge is slightly higher for interagency transfers. How much that costs - given that convenient payment option also saves time and effort for the driver?
3. Commuters who have to use toll road - because government choose to build a toll road for them - and untolled road for someone else; despite both paying same taxes. That is where resident frequent-driver programs make sense for me.

Now what doesn't make sense to me, is steep ($2-4) discount for NYC crossings (any EZpass, as far as I understand), where main goal of very steep toll is to push people into using public transportation to begin with?  If anything, those who come from further away - and likely would drive anyway - deserve to be treated easier.

Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 09:07:29 AM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 08:30:44 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 18, 2017, 12:32:03 AM
I personally accept the practice as a general reality of traveling out of state and don't concern myself too much with it. Simple reason being, in theory, it's all a wash in the end.
You're somewhat right here.
Somewhat - because many toll agencies are considered cash cows, so they are not balancing a budget - but someone determines how much funds can be extracted from motorists.

Well, no matter how much or how little money you have to spend, there's always a budget to be balanced.  Having more money coming in generally equates to better and more timely maintenance.  It also means that larger projects can be done in a shorter amount of time.  Projects that may be competing for funding for literally decades on a state level can be engineered, designed and built in relatively short order by a toll road.  And those improvements entice people that could otherwise drive for free, albeit slower, on other roads choose the toll roads for the convenience, even though it'll be more costly.  But, all of that is still factored into the overall budget.

Quote3. Commuters who have to use toll road - because government choose to build a toll road for them - and untolled road for someone else; despite both paying same taxes. That is where resident frequent-driver programs make sense for me.

For most people, the toll roads have existed for decades.  They know when they buy a house and get a job what the expenses will be in advance.  Yes, on the tax level they pay more because of that road.  But it should be no secret that road is there.

In areas where they are building toll roads, thanks to the internet those projects are more widely known in advance more than ever.  For home buyers oblivious to such a toll road, they didn't plan on using such a road in the first place, so they are welcome to use the road that's currently in place.

The ones that are truly screwed are those that have an existing home/job, and suddenly a free road is turned into a toll road

QuoteNow what doesn't make sense to me, is steep ($2-4) discount for NYC crossings (any EZpass, as far as I understand), where main goal of very steep toll is to push people into using public transportation to begin with?  If anything, those who come from further away - and likely would drive anyway - deserve to be treated easier.

Because those NYC crossings are so expensive to begin with, the discount isn't all that steep, percentage wise, compared to other discounts at other facilities.  EZ Pass customers are still paying around $10 - $12, even with the discount.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: SP Cook on July 18, 2017, 09:32:24 AM
Couple of points.

- For it all to be a "wash" is the idea that your home state screws others, and you get screwed elsewhere and it all comes out kinda even.  That assumes that a motorist's driving in his home state will equal his driving in another state.  OK, I get daily commuters with toll bridges and like that, that is just a cost of living in the suburbs and you take that into account.  But as to the more rural inter-regional toll roads, we all know that there are plenty of vital links where the %age of out-of-state users is huge.  Letting me as a state resident drive for darn near free on my state's toll roads and letting me get screwed over everywhere else assumes that I have a lot of use for my state's toll roads, which often I do not. 

- As stated, a lot of state's exercise limited oversight on their toll roads.  My state's toll road was audited and was doing massive fraud.  Illegal "investments" in make work jobs.  Unauthorized donations to HS bands and even churches.  The only fair way to operate a toll road is to eliminate the toll commissions and have all $$ flow directly to the state and have the work on the road done by the regular DOT.  Otherwise they will just waste or steal most of the money.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 10:32:21 AM
I don't have an E-ZPass for a discount on toll rates. I haven't used it very much the past few years, and it's coincidental that most of its use the last couple of years has been in its home state (West Virginia).

I have an E-ZPass for convenience's sake.  I have it so I won't have to stop at toll booths and fumble for change or my wallet. If I get a discount because I paid my tolls cashlessly, so be it. The alternative is to shunpike, which isn't always an option.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 10:56:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 09:07:29 AM

Well, no matter how much or how little money you have to spend, there's always a budget to be balanced.
Making my point simple: there are two ways of balancing: first one is adjusting spending to match expected revenues; second one - to plan some generous unrelated spending and squeeze revenue accordingly.  It is not about maintenance, it is about funding MTA and PATH through tolls.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 09:07:29 AM
Quote3. Commuters who have to use toll road - because government choose to build a toll road for them - and untolled road for someone else; despite both paying same taxes. That is where resident frequent-driver programs make sense for me.

For most people, the toll roads have existed for decades.  They know when they buy a house and get a job what the expenses will be in advance.  Yes, on the tax level they pay more because of that road.  But it should be no secret that road is there.

In areas where they are building toll roads, thanks to the internet those projects are more widely known in advance more than ever.  For home buyers oblivious to such a toll road, they didn't plan on using such a road in the first place, so they are welcome to use the road that's currently in place.

The ones that are truly screwed are those that have an existing home/job, and suddenly a free road is turned into a toll road
Just looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.
I am sort-of kind-of OK with that for my limited toll road usage; but someone using toll road daily may legitimately complain. Commuter plans are basically the answer from my perspective.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 09:07:29 AM
QuoteNow what doesn't make sense to me, is steep ($2-4) discount for NYC crossings (any EZpass, as far as I understand), where main goal of very steep toll is to push people into using public transportation to begin with?  If anything, those who come from further away - and likely would drive anyway - deserve to be treated easier.

Because those NYC crossings are so expensive to begin with, the discount isn't all that steep, percentage wise, compared to other discounts at other facilities.  EZ Pass customers are still paying around $10 - $12, even with the discount.
Well, isn't NYC crossings pricing is congestion-based in nature? If that is the case, it makes no sense to help those who drive into the city on a regular basis. Reducing lines at toll plazas is the only excuse..
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: J N Winkler on July 18, 2017, 11:10:37 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on July 18, 2017, 12:32:03 AMI personally accept the practice as a general reality of traveling out of state and don't concern myself too much with it. Simple reason being, in theory, it's all a wash in the end.

It is not, in fact, a wash.  It is a situation that leaves winners and losers depending on how a person's mileage is allocated among agencies that engage in transponder discrimination.

Quote from: Duke87 on July 18, 2017, 12:32:03 AMWhen people argue in favor of forcing agencies to stop charging higher rates to out-of-state tags, the general presumption seems to be that the current discounted rate will be applied to everyone and drivers will save money while the toll agency loses revenue. But, this is a false presumption because anyone who operates a toll road has a budget to balance - and therefore giving a discounted rate to everyone by necessity will raise said rate over what it currently is. This will be obfuscated by the fact that the rate hike won't be immediate, but it will impact the magnitude of future hikes. So ultimately we're not talking about $4 in-state/$6 out-of-state versus $4 for everyone... we're talking about $4 in-state/$6 out-of-state versus $4.25 for everyone.

I am not actually arguing that transponder discrimination should be prohibited so that every user can be given the same discount, and in fact I would expect a modest (but no more than modest) increase above the discounted rates if transponder discrimination were prohibited.  This is actually a feature rather than a bug.  The underlying reality is that, with the exception of a differential in processing costs that is very small between native and foreign transponders (so small, in fact, that it is dwarfed by the minimum toll), it costs the agency the same amount of money to handle a given car whether it has (for example) New York or Kansas plates.

Experience shows that transponder discrimination has nothing to do with higher processing costs for foreign transponders--it has everything to do with offering a politically attractive subsidy for near customers at the expense of remote ones.  In the case of densely populated metropolitan areas, this subsidy actually worsens congestion because it protects local users from being charged for the congestion-related costs they place on others.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 11:26:59 AM
NYC crossings are basically priced to help build the new PANYNJ-owed World Trade Center.  Remove that from the equation and the tolls fall nearly in half.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 11:26:59 AM
NYC crossings are basically priced to help build the new PANYNJ-owed World Trade Center.  Remove that from the equation and the tolls fall nearly in half.
I believe legally it is for the PATH, which "reduces crossings congestion, thus benefiting tollpayers"  or something along those lines..

Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 12:05:07 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 11:26:59 AM
NYC crossings are basically priced to help build the new PANYNJ-owed World Trade Center.  Remove that from the equation and the tolls fall nearly in half.
I believe legally it is for the PATH, which "reduces crossings congestion, thus benefiting tollpayers"  or something along those lines..

There's nothing, legal wise, saying that's what tolls are used for.

Their press releases thru the past decade/15 years detail a relation to increased costs for buildings, security, maintenance, airport expansions and other items as reasons to raise both tolls and fares.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: roadman on July 18, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
QuoteJust looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on July 18, 2017, 12:12:51 PM
I'm not opposed to the concept of transponder discrimination when it's used to account for revenue/cost differences, or as an admittedly imperfect proxy for volume discounts.

However, once the discrimination rises to a level beyond what those considerations would reasonably justify...I think there's a problem.  The tit-for-tat de-discounting are a sign of such a problem.  And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: hotdogPi on July 18, 2017, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on July 18, 2017, 12:12:51 PM
And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.

Maybe because there are only two ways to leave the island containing Jamestown, RI, and the residents of that island would be using that bridge extremely often. (The other way out was tolled temporarily, and then the toll was removed.)

I believe there's a similar discount for the Thousand Islands bridge in New York.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 12:28:52 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 18, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
QuoteJust looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.
Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 12:28:52 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 18, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
QuoteJust looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.
Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...


Yeah, it's a well-worn argument.  I guess I could say the same when I buy gas to use in my lawnmower to mow the lawn - I'm already paying taxes on my property...why do I need to pay a fuel tax to mow the lawn I'm already paying a tax on?

Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: MikeTheActuary on July 18, 2017, 12:50:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 18, 2017, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on July 18, 2017, 12:12:51 PM
And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.

Maybe because there are only two ways to leave the island containing Jamestown, RI, and the residents of that island would be using that bridge extremely often. (The other way out was tolled temporarily, and then the toll was removed.)

I believe there's a similar discount for the Thousand Islands bridge in New York.

The OP's comment made it seem like all Rhode Islanders got a deep discount using the bridge.

If it were just folks local to the bridge who "have" to use it getting the price break, that would make a certain amount of sense.  But if it's all Rhode Islanders....that feels excessive (although Rhode Island is, I guess, just about small enough for the entire state to be considered "local").
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 12:28:52 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 18, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
QuoteJust looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.
Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...


Yeah, it's a well-worn argument.  I guess I could say the same when I buy gas to use in my lawnmower to mow the lawn - I'm already paying taxes on my property...why do I need to pay a fuel tax to mow the lawn I'm already paying a tax on?

ANd farm fuel is tax exempt for that exact reason.
With lawn mower, you basically talking about maybe $1-2 per month (NY has about $0.60/gallon total tax - state, federal and local), or $10-20 for the year. Which is well within budgeting tolerance from my perspective.
Someone driving to work via toll road - I just looked up s0me stretch I know commute-heavy - $0.70 per trip, pretty modest for a toll road. 250 working days/year @2 one-way trips/day add up to $350, which is not quite negligible.
Things may be even more steep if we're talking about island residents and associated  bridge crossings...
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 12:58:57 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on July 18, 2017, 12:50:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 18, 2017, 12:23:01 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on July 18, 2017, 12:12:51 PM
And I'd love to hear how the Newport Bridge toll differential is justified.

Maybe because there are only two ways to leave the island containing Jamestown, RI, and the residents of that island would be using that bridge extremely often. (The other way out was tolled temporarily, and then the toll was removed.)

I believe there's a similar discount for the Thousand Islands bridge in New York.

The OP's comment made it seem like all Rhode Islanders got a deep discount using the bridge.

If it were just folks local to the bridge who "have" to use it getting the price break, that would make a certain amount of sense.  But if it's all Rhode Islanders....that feels excessive (although Rhode Island is, I guess, just about small enough for the entire state to be considered "local").

Actually, I do have a link to a court case on that bridge crossing; it goes into some interesting and counter-intuitive details in discussion. But, interestingly enough, they changed policy - now one  has to live in RI _AND_ apply for the plan to get a discount. I assume that is done to select those, who actually travel often enough to bother - as opposed to once a year island visitors who happen to live in RI.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: SP Cook on July 18, 2017, 01:08:43 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 18, 2017, 12:11:17 PM

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations. 

Well, "double dipping" is probably not exactly the right term, but it is something.

Let's use the WV Turnpike as an example.  A quick look at the map shows it location. and its importance.

Understand that all WVians pay the same gas tax, regardless of where they live.   Now, let's divide the state into several groups.  (Obviously there are nitpick exceptions and not everybody fits into a neat group, but work with me).

- Most people who live somewhere near or north of Charleston.  At best these people will use the road once or twice per year, such as a vaction trip south out-of-state.

- People in the eastern panhandle (or the extreme SW corner of the state) who will probably never drive on the road.

- People in Bluefield, Beckley, and Lewisburg and its hinterland.  They must use the road many times per year, to reach the state capital, financial center, and health care and shopping hub (Charleston) or to attend either of the two legitimate universities (Huntington or Morgantown) or, in fact, to reach about anywhere else in the state.  For a road that has been paid off since 1987 and for which the toll revenue (that which is not wasted or stolen) will be tossed into the general state pot for all to share.

Yet all will pay the same gas tax.   It may not be double dipping, but it is certainly double taxing.

BTW, if you care to, you can get tax exempt fuel or tax refunds for motor fuel not used for highway use.  That is what farmers, rivermen, construction outfits and such do.  For a lawn mower the amount involved is too trivial to worry about.  Maybe $3/year?

Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 01:24:18 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 12:53:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 12:32:04 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 12:28:52 PM
Quote from: roadman on July 18, 2017, 12:11:17 PM
QuoteJust looking at that from the other side: many toll roads don't get outside financing - but I still pay tax on the gas I burn on that road. This is called "double dipping". Works a bit different for trucks, but I am talking about commuters.

Actually, it's not "double dipping" unless the toll road agency receives a portion of the gas tax revenue to fund their operations.  I don't believe this situation currently exists with any toll road agency in the country.
Well, it may not be "double dipping" per se - but definitely I am being charged twice for same drive. But I assume we all get the idea...


Yeah, it's a well-worn argument.  I guess I could say the same when I buy gas to use in my lawnmower to mow the lawn - I'm already paying taxes on my property...why do I need to pay a fuel tax to mow the lawn I'm already paying a tax on?

ANd farm fuel is tax exempt for that exact reason.
With lawn mower, you basically talking about maybe $1-2 per month (NY has about $0.60/gallon total tax - state, federal and local), or $10-20 for the year. Which is well within budgeting tolerance from my perspective.
Someone driving to work via toll road - I just looked up s0me stretch I know commute-heavy - $0.70 per trip, pretty modest for a toll road. 250 working days/year @2 one-way trips/day add up to $350, which is not quite negligible.
Things may be even more steep if we're talking about island residents and associated  bridge crossings...

The point was it's still 'double-dipping'.  Now it only matters above/below a certain threshold?  Geez.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 01:45:12 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 01:24:18 PM

The point was it's still 'double-dipping'.  Now it only matters above/below a certain threshold?  Geez.
Well, lets try full sentence.
Cost of differentiating potential usage and enforcement of proper use of tax-free gas would need to be factored into the price of tax-exempt fuel, and likely outweigh the amount of tax paid. As such, it is actually cheaper and more efficien to use taxable fuel for non-taxed applications especially for small-scale users.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 01:55:05 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?
Good idea regarding tax-exempt fuel on a plaza! I already know where I would be getting all my gas in such a case, thank you!
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: Duke87 on July 19, 2017, 11:54:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 08:30:44 AM
Now what doesn't make sense to me, is steep ($2-4) discount for NYC crossings (any EZpass, as far as I understand), where main goal of very steep toll is to push people into using public transportation to begin with?  If anything, those who come from further away - and likely would drive anyway - deserve to be treated easier.

The main goal of the very steep tolls is so that excess revenue from can be used to help subsidize public transit services. Not to encourage transit use.

Indeed, if you look at where the MTA's tolls are you may note that most of them are situated such that their average user does not have a reasonable public transit alternative.

If the purpose of the tolls were to encourage transit use, all the bridges into Manhattan (where there are lots of transit alternatives) would be heavily tolled and all of the bridges between The Bronx and Queens, Brooklyn and Staten Island, etc. (where there are no transit alternatives except a bus or two) would be free or tolled very lightly. Instead, there are a whole bunch of free bridges into Manhattan while people who want to go from Queens to The Bronx or Brooklyn to Staten Island have little choice but to pay up or stay home.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 11:26:59 AM
NYC crossings are basically priced to help build the new PANYNJ-owed World Trade Center.  Remove that from the equation and the tolls fall nearly in half.

This is a factor for PANYNJ crossings. Not for MTA crossings, since the MTA has nothing to do with the WTC.


Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 18, 2017, 12:05:07 PM
Quote from: kalvado on July 18, 2017, 11:54:40 AM
I believe legally it is for the PATH, which "reduces crossings congestion, thus benefiting tollpayers"  or something along those lines..
There's nothing, legal wise, saying that's what tolls are used for.

Their press releases thru the past decade/15 years detail a relation to increased costs for buildings, security, maintenance, airport expansions and other items as reasons to raise both tolls and fares.

How about we let the budget do the talking. (http://corpinfo.panynj.gov/pages/budget/) Numbers for 2017, ranked from most to least profitable.
Tolled Bridges and Tunnels: $758 million
Airports: $233 million
Non-WTC real estate: $10 million
Seaports: -$6 million
NJ 7 Wittpenn Bridge: -$100 million
PA Bus Terminal: -$157 million
Pulaski Skyway/Routes 1&9: -$160 million
PATH: -$341 million
WTC: -$412 million

Statistically, PATH and the WTC are both major drags on the Port Authority's budget. Of course, originally the WTC was intended to be a revenue source for the Port Authority that would cover the expenses of running PATH - great plan, but it required the WTC remain standing and functonal in order to work. So, you can blame Al Qaeda for the high tolls.

That said, also note the fifth and seventh items in my list. Paying to rebuild roadways that the Port Authority does not own, because NJ is too cheap to pay to do so themselves, also represents $260 million in expenditures for 2017.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: 02 Park Ave on July 20, 2017, 09:24:25 PM
The New Jersey Turnpike automatically gives a 25% discount to cars with NJ E-ZPasses during off-peak hours.  Peak hours are weekday rush hours and all day on weekends however.  The discount is given regardless of what state the car is from as long as it has a NJ E-ZPass.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: wanderer2575 on July 20, 2017, 09:41:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: cl94 on July 20, 2017, 09:45:25 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 20, 2017, 09:41:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.


And nobody in their right mind would buy gas on the Thruway unless they have to because it's usually 5-10 cents more. Most of the exits have a gas station close by, several are truck stops. Exit 25A is a really good one, because if you get gas there and are getting on/off at 24, 25 or 26, you save half a buck by getting off and immediately back on compared to passing straight through.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: Brandon on July 20, 2017, 10:12:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 20, 2017, 09:45:25 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 20, 2017, 09:41:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.


And nobody in their right mind would buy gas on the Thruway unless they have to because it's usually 5-10 cents more. Most of the exits have a gas station close by, several are truck stops. Exit 25A is a really good one, because if you get gas there and are getting on/off at 24, 25 or 26, you save half a buck by getting off and immediately back on compared to passing straight through.

Yeah, that was odd, out east with the higher prices at the service areas.  Around here, sometimes the tollway oasis can be cheaper than just off the tollway.  As an example, I paid $2.149/gallon for regular on I-88 at the DeKalb Oasis on Wednesday.  Off the tollway, it was more typically $2.199/gallon.  Even the food was pricier there.  Here, the tollway oasis restaurants typically respect the promotions and sales (like Monopoly at McDonald's, or the 6 inch meal deal at Subway).
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: cl94 on July 20, 2017, 10:31:14 PM
The Thruway Mobils in particular are ridiculous. NYSTA lets them set prices at a few cents higher than the area average of that brand. However, Mobil stations in much of New York are typically a good 5-10 cents more expensive than everything else. Some of them are 15-20 cents more expensive than gas at a nearby exit. I don't eat at Thruway service areas either because prices are generally 20-30% higher and promotions aren't honored. The Sunocos aren't as ridiculous, but still more expensive than the Speedway, Cumberland Farms/Stewart's/Byrne Dairy/7-Eleven or truck stop near an exit.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: vdeane on July 21, 2017, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 20, 2017, 09:41:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.

Seems to me it would be similar to the situation that exists now with buying out of state.  I remember when I had my internship in Sidney, back when gas was cheaper in PA than NY.  Every time I'd drive to/from Rochester, I'd refuel at exit 61 near where NY 17 dips into PA.  Essentially all of the gas I'd purchase for the trips was from PA, even though I couldn't have spent more than a tenth of mile on PA-maintained road each time.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: kalvado on July 21, 2017, 03:07:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 21, 2017, 12:54:04 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 20, 2017, 09:41:36 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on July 18, 2017, 01:47:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 18, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
I would call getting both gas tax revenue and tolls for driving on a certain road double dipping.  The gas tax is supposed to be used for highway maintenance.  It's basically the "user fee" for non-toll roads.  Same for tolls.  So, for a toll road, you're paying two "user fees", one of which is free money for the state.

How would one classify the gasoline taxes paid at a toll road service center? You've paid a toll for the privilege of being able to pay the gas tax at that location. Perhaps gas at service plazas should be exempt from state taxation?

No, you've paid a toll solely for the privilege of driving on that road.  If you purchase gas, that's a completely separate transaction.  You don't necessarily have to buy gas on the toll road.  And if you do, likely you're not using it all there.

Seems to me it would be similar to the situation that exists now with buying out of state.  I remember when I had my internship in Sidney, back when gas was cheaper in PA than NY.  Every time I'd drive to/from Rochester, I'd refuel at exit 61 near where NY 17 dips into PA.  Essentially all of the gas I'd purchase for the trips was from PA, even though I couldn't have spent more than a tenth of mile on PA-maintained road each time.
This is, if you will, somewhat similar to gas for lawnmower situation we discussed above. Not all gas is used where it is sold, or for public roads. For a big state like NY having higher tax compensates for small revenue loss at the borders (and loss of revenue from reduced consumption). I wonder how that works in RI or DC, though...
Abuse of tax-free gas on Thruway is much more likely - and it will never happen.  And since gas tax doesn't pay for highway expenses any more - no tax rebates for toll roads as well.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: vdeane on July 21, 2017, 07:28:41 PM
Plus not all toll roads have service areas.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: cl94 on July 21, 2017, 07:38:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 21, 2017, 07:28:41 PM
Plus not all toll roads have service areas.

And roads that are not tolled have service areas. See Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York City.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: RobbieL2415 on July 21, 2017, 09:21:31 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 20, 2017, 10:31:14 PM
The Thruway Mobils in particular are ridiculous. NYSTA lets them set prices at a few cents higher than the area average of that brand. However, Mobil stations in much of New York are typically a good 5-10 cents more expensive than everything else. Some of them are 15-20 cents more expensive than gas at a nearby exit. I don't eat at Thruway service areas either because prices are generally 20-30% higher and promotions aren't honored. The Sunocos aren't as ridiculous, but still more expensive than the Speedway, Cumberland Farms/Stewart's/Byrne Dairy/7-Eleven or truck stop near an exit.
Mobil is always more expensive for some reason.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: Sykotyk on July 22, 2017, 03:36:28 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 21, 2017, 07:38:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 21, 2017, 07:28:41 PM
Plus not all toll roads have service areas.

And roads that are not tolled have service areas. See Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York City.

MA 128 predates I-95, so that's why there's plazas there. Any other state route can have them. No law against it. Connecticut is the former Connecticut Turnpike, which is why they still have them. The Western Kentucky Parkway has one plaza, though it's apparently shuttered for right now.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: vdeane on July 22, 2017, 06:14:49 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 21, 2017, 07:38:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 21, 2017, 07:28:41 PM
Plus not all toll roads have service areas.

And roads that are not tolled have service areas. See Connecticut, Massachusetts and New York City.
Regarding HB's proposal to not tax gas bought on toll road service plazas, I assume these would not be included in that.
Title: Re: EZPass rate border (in-state vs. out of state rates)
Post by: hbelkins on July 23, 2017, 03:35:48 PM
Not really a proposal, just a thought.