Since I had a not so mild bout of road rage yesterday, and have subsequently been thinking about the consequences of aggressive driving: Have you ever been involved in road rage?
Road rage can stem from any number of factors, being cut off, tailgating, left lane camping. Or if there's some other thing drivers do that irks you, let's hear it.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 14, 2017, 09:05:15 PM
Or, if there's some other thing drivers do that irks you, lets hear it.
Cutting across several lanes of traffic to take an exit.
iPhone XNo, not really. I don't use Tapatalk, and I don't have that phone.
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself. Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't). When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe. Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic. I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do). This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car. Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.
The two things that drive me crazy to no end are tailgaters who if they get any closer would be in front of you (if I can't see your headlights, you're too close), and drivers on a multi-lane highway who cut right in front of you (less than a half second after passing) without signaling, especially if the lane that they are in is wide open. Distracted driving only gets me when I'm a pedestrian trying to cross in a crosswalk in a parking lot and someone blows through at 40 MPH without stopping and I see their left hand up to their left ear.
The last time I actually got that mad myself was about 13 years ago, I was on I-64 EB just east of Exit 192 in the left lane using my pop's '80 Chevy pickup to move a couple of dressers (not the greatest stopping power as you can imagine). A lady in a convertible got in the left lane and then slowed all of a sudden to turn into the "authorized vehicles only" cut to perform a U-turn. I slammed on brakes and came within inches of hitting her. I threw the Big Gulp I was drinking and it landed right on the back of her head... that was followed by me yelling "bitch!!!"
Quote from: plain on September 14, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
The last time I actually got that mad myself was about 13 years ago, I was on I-64 EB just east of Exit 192 in the left lane using my pop's '80 Chevy pickup to move a couple of dressers (not the greatest stopping power as you can imagine). A lady in a convertible got in the left lane and then slowed all of a sudden to turn into the "authorized vehicles only" cut to perform a U-turn. I slammed on brakes and came within inches of hitting her. I threw the Big Gulp I was drinking and it landed right on the back of her head... that was followed by me yelling "bitch!!!"
Nowadays in Virginia they might prosecute you for that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701560.html
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 14, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself. Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't). When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe. Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic. I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do). This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car. Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.
At that point you become part of the problem, because not only are you brake-checking that driver, everyone else behind you two are subject to your braking and unnecessary slowing.
Most people are only concerned with the car behind them. They don't see the line of traffic behind that car. I see this on the highway all the time - someone going the speed limit or slower is in the left lane. When they finally get over, they glare at the car that was behind them. They ignore the next 10 cars that are able to finally pass as well, even though that single driver was responsible for holding up the entire lane's worth of traffic.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 14, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself. Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't). When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe. Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic. I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do). This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car. Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.
At that point you become part of the problem, because not only are you brake-checking that driver, everyone else behind you two are subject to your braking and unnecessary slowing.
Most people are only concerned with the car behind them. They don't see the line of traffic behind that car. I see this on the highway all the time - someone going the speed limit or slower is in the left lane. When they finally get over, they glare at the car that was behind them. They ignore the next 10 cars that are able to finally pass as well, even though that single driver was responsible for holding up the entire lane's worth of traffic.
Bullstuff. I don't advocate left-lane squatting or pretending you're the highway patrol, but bottom line is there are a lot more vehicles than there are lanes and you're going to be behind someone. That someone's not going fast enough for your taste, you chill out and deal with it. Everyone should be going as fast as what the fastest driver wants? Bullstuff. That's like saying the guy at the supermarket checkout shouldn't be buying so much stuff and holding things up when there's a line of people behind him.
I'm not out for vengeance or teaching a lesson; I just want a reasonable distance between vehicles. If you're following me too closely for the speed, I will adjust accordingly. Have you ever been rear-ended because you had to suddenly hit the brakes and the car behind you was following too closely to do the same? I have. If you've not had the pleasure, I suggest you give it a whirl. Then, if you're still okay with someone tailgating you, I'll listen to your argument.
The last time I had road rage was 20 years ago, I was on a back windy hilly road marked at 35 here in Suburban Philly. I was doing 50 and that wasn't fast enough for the person behind me, who was tailing me, and weaving over the double yellow line trying to pass, but couldn't because of other cars or sight lines. The first place I could pull over was a mile away, so I did and flipped him off. He stopped...backed up...and two guys got out of the car, and so did I.
Fortunately...it was one of those high-school posturing stand-offs where there's a lot of the "you wanna go?" comments and f bombs, but eventually, they got in their car and drove away.
I'm a big enough guy... 6'2" and at that time 210. But it would have been two on one.
Since then...I've kept my outward gestures of rage in check.
Regarding brake checking, I'd love to rig up something that would make my brake lights illuminate without me having to hit the brake.
Regarding prosecutions, I vaguely remember a couple of prosecutions arising out of road rage incidents merely because someone took out a gun and displayed it or placed it on the dash of their vehicle and they did NOT point the gun at anyone.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2017, 01:13:51 PM
Regarding brake checking, I'd love to rig up something that would make my brake lights illuminate without me having to hit the brake.
....
My father used to flick his parking lights on for a few seconds to make the red come on quickly as though he'd hit the brakes. I'm not sure that'd work as well now due to the high-mount third brake light.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 15, 2017, 08:52:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 14, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself. Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't). When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe. Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic. I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do). This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car. Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.
At that point you become part of the problem, because not only are you brake-checking that driver, everyone else behind you two are subject to your braking and unnecessary slowing.
Most people are only concerned with the car behind them. They don't see the line of traffic behind that car. I see this on the highway all the time - someone going the speed limit or slower is in the left lane. When they finally get over, they glare at the car that was behind them. They ignore the next 10 cars that are able to finally pass as well, even though that single driver was responsible for holding up the entire lane's worth of traffic.
Bullstuff. I don't advocate left-lane squatting or pretending you're the highway patrol, but bottom line is there are a lot more vehicles than there are lanes and you're going to be behind someone. That someone's not going fast enough for your taste, you chill out and deal with it. Everyone should be going as fast as what the fastest driver wants? Bullstuff. That's like saying the guy at the supermarket checkout shouldn't be buying so much stuff and holding things up when there's a line of people behind him.
I'm not out for vengeance or teaching a lesson; I just want a reasonable distance between vehicles. If you're following me too closely for the speed, I will adjust accordingly. Have you ever been rear-ended because you had to suddenly hit the brakes and the car behind you was following too closely to do the same? I have. If you've not had the pleasure, I suggest you give it a whirl. Then, if you're still okay with someone tailgating you, I'll listen to your argument.
Completely irrelevant and completely bypassing the point.
You can't control the person behind you. You go at the pace you're comfortable with, assuming you're obeying the rules of the road. If you're doing the speed limit, fine. Once you start tapping on the brakes though, you become the problem. The guy isn't going to back off that much, and will continue to tailgate, as this person did at least 10 times. It is absolutely a form of road rage. And even worse, because once you get that accordion going of people braking because the lead car slowed down unnecessarily, accidents can easily occur many cars back. Obviously you aren't aware of it...or care...but even though you weren't directly responsible, you indirectly put in motion the cause of the accident.
Being that NASCAR drivers drive within inches, and the brake checking went on a multiple number of times, it probably actually wasn't that close to him. Closer than he would've liked, but not so close as to cause an accident.
As for being rear ended - yes, 9 days before my wedding. Have you ever enjoyed your honeymoon by talking to insurance adjustors and repair shops? No? Then F off.
Quoteif there's some other thing drivers do that irks you, lets hear it.
A growing trend I'm seeing that is increasingly annoying me is drivers who, despite a clear road in front of them, will hit their brakes instead of just backing off on the throttle when they decide they're going too fast.
Another pet peeve of mine is drivers who take their time when passing large trucks.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 15, 2017, 08:52:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 14, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself. Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't). When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe. Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic. I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do). This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car. Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.
At that point you become part of the problem, because not only are you brake-checking that driver, everyone else behind you two are subject to your braking and unnecessary slowing.
Most people are only concerned with the car behind them. They don't see the line of traffic behind that car. I see this on the highway all the time - someone going the speed limit or slower is in the left lane. When they finally get over, they glare at the car that was behind them. They ignore the next 10 cars that are able to finally pass as well, even though that single driver was responsible for holding up the entire lane's worth of traffic.
Bullstuff. I don't advocate left-lane squatting or pretending you're the highway patrol, but bottom line is there are a lot more vehicles than there are lanes and you're going to be behind someone. That someone's not going fast enough for your taste, you chill out and deal with it. Everyone should be going as fast as what the fastest driver wants? Bullstuff. That's like saying the guy at the supermarket checkout shouldn't be buying so much stuff and holding things up when there's a line of people behind him.
I'm not out for vengeance or teaching a lesson; I just want a reasonable distance between vehicles. If you're following me too closely for the speed, I will adjust accordingly. Have you ever been rear-ended because you had to suddenly hit the brakes and the car behind you was following too closely to do the same? I have. If you've not had the pleasure, I suggest you give it a whirl. Then, if you're still okay with someone tailgating you, I'll listen to your argument.
Completely irrelevant and completely bypassing the point.
You can't control the person behind you. You go at the pace you're comfortable with, assuming you're obeying the rules of the road. If you're doing the speed limit, fine. Once you start tapping on the brakes though, you become the problem. The guy isn't going to back off that much, and will continue to tailgate, as this person did at least 10 times. It is absolutely a form of road rage. And even worse, because once you get that accordion going of people braking because the lead car slowed down unnecessarily, accidents can easily occur many cars back. Obviously you aren't aware of it...or care...but even though you weren't directly responsible, you indirectly put in motion the cause of the accident.
Being that NASCAR drivers drive within inches, and the brake checking went on a multiple number of times, it probably actually wasn't that close to him. Closer than he would've liked, but not so close as to cause an accident.
As for being rear ended - yes, 9 days before my wedding. Have you ever enjoyed your honeymoon by talking to insurance adjustors and repair shops? No? Then F off.
I am literally talking within inches at 45-50 MPH, and there were no other cars behind him or in front of me, so the whole accordion effect wasn't in play. This person was just completely and totally obnoxious.
I get really pissed when people throw fire.. I mean cigarette garbage.. out of their window and it hits my vehicle.
Quote from: roadman on September 15, 2017, 01:55:56 PMAnother pet peeve of mine is drivers who take their time when passing large trucks.
...otherwise known as the cruise-control pass.
Cruise control: The greatest invention ever for keeping drivers from paying attention to their surroundings...at least, until someone invented the cell phone.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 14, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself. Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't). When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe. Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic. I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do). This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car. Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.
At that point you become part of the problem, because not only are you brake-checking that driver, everyone else behind you two are subject to your braking and unnecessary slowing.
Most people are only concerned with the car behind them. They don't see the line of traffic behind that car. I see this on the highway all the time - someone going the speed limit or slower is in the left lane. When they finally get over, they glare at the car that was behind them. They ignore the next 10 cars that are able to finally pass as well, even though that single driver was responsible for holding up the entire lane's worth of traffic.
One time (maybe three months ago) while going to Little Rock we had a box truck driver for Aaron's on I-40 (We were near Mullmele or Moralton) and this guy was lane hopping between the two lanes (there was two semis doing a slow race in front of him). It was very sketch! The point is that this blundering bafoon was very dangerous and he was holding up traffic from passing and could have caused an accident.
Quote from: SidS1045 on September 15, 2017, 03:47:15 PM
Quote from: roadman on September 15, 2017, 01:55:56 PMAnother pet peeve of mine is drivers who take their time when passing large trucks.
...otherwise known as the cruise-control pass.
Cruise control: The greatest invention ever for keeping drivers from paying attention to their surroundings...at least, until someone invented the cell phone.
Thing is, the fuckers around here speed, speed, speed, until they get next to a truck, and then stupidly slow down in the "no zone" for some dumbass reason.
Road rage almost always stems from one driver being annoyed at another driver for not driving quickly enough, or someone not getting over to allow someone to pass. I've never instigated road rage (because I'm not an idiot), nor have ever had it directed at me. I mostly avoid it by always being in the top 15th percentile of traffic speed. If someone is breathing down my neck on a two lane road, I always pull off and let them by. The fact that people resort to brake-checking (jp the roadgeek) over just letting someone by, either by pulling into the shoulder, a side road, or a soft verge is just an appalling display of ignorance. Pulling off and letting someone by is an especially good idea if you think that person is high or drunk. You don't know what they could do, so just get out of their way.
I do believe brake checking is illegal and even if it is not, it is still just as dangerous if not more than driving like a speed demon.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 16, 2017, 12:17:26 AM
Quote from: tribar on September 15, 2017, 11:01:58 PM
I do believe brake checking is illegal and even if it is not, it is still just as dangerous if not more than driving like a speed demon.
But neither is as dangerous as tailgating IMO.
And it's kind of hard to prove whether you had a "reason" for braking. Doesnt make it right, but I'm not sure about illegal.
Braking unnecessarily, when someone is behind you, could be considered assault.
The better idea is just to get out of the way of the tailgater. It takes two to tango.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2017, 01:16:49 AM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 16, 2017, 12:17:26 AM
Quote from: tribar on September 15, 2017, 11:01:58 PM
I do believe brake checking is illegal and even if it is not, it is still just as dangerous if not more than driving like a speed demon.
But neither is as dangerous as tailgating IMO.
And it's kind of hard to prove whether you had a "reason" for braking. Doesnt make it right, but I'm not sure about illegal.
Braking unnecessarily, when someone is behind you, could be considered assault.
The better idea is just to get out of the way of the tailgater. It takes two to tango.
Over the years I've found a few effective ways to deal with tailgaters: on a freeway/expressway, if you're in the left or one of the center lanes, just pull over to the right at the first opportunity; in the right lane, speed up and move left (unless you're preparing to exit). On a 2-lane road, pull into the first publicly-available area (a parking lot, turnout, or even a side street if nothing else is available) and see what the tailgater does. If they follow you, screw the cel phone laws and call 911 -- or, alternately, stay in your car until the tailgater gets out and then take off like a bat out of hell! I did this during a RR photo trip up near Lake Almanor several years back; a moron started tailgating me just outside Greenville and continued to follow me up CA 147; I pulled into a Quick Stop in Westwood and the guy followed me into the lot and got out of his car. I gunned it, got onto 36 west and pulled into the first Chevron I could find and parked around back out of sight of the road. Never saw the guy again (he was driving an old Pontiac). All the time, I was thinking about the old Spielberg TV film "Duel". One difference -- I had my 9mm Ruger behind the seat of my truck with 3 full clips (always carried it on photo trips into the "outback") -- but all said & done, I'd rather not even
think about using or even wielding it. Better to evade than confront in this type of situation!
One alternative to brake checking that I have observed on the road is activating your windshield washers. At highway speeds, much of the fluid flies off your car and onto the windshield of the tailgater. This will either persuade them to back off or it will piss them off more, but at least its something that you can't be prosecuted for. Alternatively, if your car has a sunroof and you happen to have a bottle of water or other substance handy... well you get the idea.
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 16, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
One alternative to brake checking that I have observed on the road is activating your windshield washers....
Another alternative to brake checking is pulling off to the side and letting them by ... why do people insist on dealing with tailgaters themselves? Let them go. You (not you
pumpkin) are the reason they are angry.
I've had two road rage incidents happen to me.
First time, I was coming back from karaoke at a local area, and I came to an intersection where a guy was turning left and I was turning right onto the same road. I sat there for a minute and he waited, so I went. G#8)(*T)( followed me onto my property, sped up and almost ran me over threatening to "kick (my) ass if I ever drove like that again"
Second time, I was on my way to work. A car stopped short of the side road I was turning from and when I went to turn, he rolled forward to cut me off so I flipped him off as I turned in front of him. He chased me (and I know because I even ducked onto a side street, and he tailed me). I don't know how I shook him. Okay, so he had the right of way, but if you stop, STOP. Don't pretend to let me in and then try to cut me off!!!!!
Me? Well, there was this time about six years ago that I was turning onto a major highway even after letting the newly-green light wait for a few seconds. A pickup truck with a trailer came flying down the highway, just stopping short of broadsiding me (did I mention his light had been red for several seconds??). I turned around quickly and chased him for a mile.
My pet peeves:
1. Blocking a turn lane because you can't get to the outside lane on the cross street.
2. Bearing down on me when I'm already driving too fast.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 16, 2017, 06:35:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2017, 03:36:36 PM
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 16, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
One alternative to brake checking that I have observed on the road is activating your windshield washers....
Another alternative to brake checking is pulling off to the side and letting them by ... why do people insist on dealing with tailgaters themselves? Let them go. You (not you pumpkin) are the reason they are angry.
Well, for one, they're at fault. For two, the "slowpoke" isn't necessarily doing anything wrong. Maybe they shouldn't insist on trying to get ahead in such a rude, aggressive manner (in other words, they're the ones that are wrongly trying to take things in their own hands). If Car A really is at fault, for left lane camping, etc They have several other options, 4 way flashers being the one least disruptive to traffic flow.
Personally, instead of riding on someone's bumper, I'll wait it out in the right lane until I can pass at a reasonable speed differential. Unless, of course, my place in line is in jeopardy :D
I'm not trying to suggest that the tailgater is somehow in the right. Whatever distance they are following at, it probably wouldn't be construed as safe or reasonable by an officer. But, in order for someone to tailgate, there has to be a
car to tailgate. The only safe way to diffuse the situation, lest you're a cop, is to simply get out of their way. Don't let them tailgate.
By not taking measures to get out of their way, you are contributing to the problem just as much as they are. The tailgater is creating a problem where there wasn't one (unless the car they're following is camping in the left lane), but you are creating another problem by taking no steps to get out of their way. Be the bigger person in the situation, and just move.
I seem to cause road rage by just being a pedestrian/bicyclist doing legal things.
Walk on a marked (or unmarked), un-signalized crosswalk with traffic clear? I get to listen to distant honking as drivers fail to slow down on their approach. Turns out they don't like it when you walk at a brisk pace (they want sprinters).
Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
I seem to cause road rage by just being a pedestrian/bicyclist doing legal things.
Walk on a marked (or unmarked), un-signalized crosswalk with traffic clear? I get to listen to distant honking as drivers fail to slow down on their approach. Turns out they don't like it when you walk at a brisk pace (they want sprinters).
Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).
Don't even get me started...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 01:49:29 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on September 15, 2017, 08:52:52 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2017, 08:20:40 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on September 14, 2017, 09:24:28 PM
Was almost a victim of road rage yesterday myself. Was minding my business taking a left off an exit ramp (1 left and 1 right lane) onto a two lane road, and an idiot in a Mercedes behind me literally tried to pass me on the left by crossing over the double yellow line on the overpass (I thought maybe he was rushing to take a left to get back on the highway the other way, but he wasn't). When he couldn't, he was almost driving alongside of me, then when opposing traffic came on, he started tailgating me at a distance that would make a NASCAR driver cringe. Two more times he tried to pass on the double yellow, but he couldn't because of traffic. I must've tapped and slammed on my brakes about 10 times, then slowed down to about 30. Finally, I took a left and flip him off (something I never do). This guy had to be on meth or have just stolen the car. Wish I got his plate because I would have called the PD because this guy was endangering people.
At that point you become part of the problem, because not only are you brake-checking that driver, everyone else behind you two are subject to your braking and unnecessary slowing.
Most people are only concerned with the car behind them. They don't see the line of traffic behind that car. I see this on the highway all the time - someone going the speed limit or slower is in the left lane. When they finally get over, they glare at the car that was behind them. They ignore the next 10 cars that are able to finally pass as well, even though that single driver was responsible for holding up the entire lane's worth of traffic.
Bullstuff. I don't advocate left-lane squatting or pretending you're the highway patrol, but bottom line is there are a lot more vehicles than there are lanes and you're going to be behind someone. That someone's not going fast enough for your taste, you chill out and deal with it. Everyone should be going as fast as what the fastest driver wants? Bullstuff. That's like saying the guy at the supermarket checkout shouldn't be buying so much stuff and holding things up when there's a line of people behind him.
I'm not out for vengeance or teaching a lesson; I just want a reasonable distance between vehicles. If you're following me too closely for the speed, I will adjust accordingly. Have you ever been rear-ended because you had to suddenly hit the brakes and the car behind you was following too closely to do the same? I have. If you've not had the pleasure, I suggest you give it a whirl. Then, if you're still okay with someone tailgating you, I'll listen to your argument.
Completely irrelevant and completely bypassing the point.
You can't control the person behind you. You go at the pace you're comfortable with, assuming you're obeying the rules of the road. If you're doing the speed limit, fine. Once you start tapping on the brakes though, you become the problem. The guy isn't going to back off that much, and will continue to tailgate, as this person did at least 10 times. It is absolutely a form of road rage. And even worse, because once you get that accordion going of people braking because the lead car slowed down unnecessarily, accidents can easily occur many cars back. Obviously you aren't aware of it...or care...but even though you weren't directly responsible, you indirectly put in motion the cause of the accident.
Being that NASCAR drivers drive within inches, and the brake checking went on a multiple number of times, it probably actually wasn't that close to him. Closer than he would've liked, but not so close as to cause an accident.
As for being rear ended - yes, 9 days before my wedding. Have you ever enjoyed your honeymoon by talking to insurance adjustors and repair shops? No? Then F off.
Ooooh, profanity. Very mature response. Very... road rage-ish. Hmmm...
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
I seem to cause road rage by just being a pedestrian/bicyclist doing legal things.
I'll be able to tell my kids how horribly my, and previous, generation(s) drove around bikes and pedestrians. I suppose it's all a matter of poor driver education. In time, I suspect drivers will improve.
Quote from: Bruce link=topic=21106.msg2259371#msg2259371
Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).
Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce link=topic=21106.msg2259371#msg2259371
Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).
Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.
You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).
Quote from: hbelkins on September 15, 2017, 01:13:51 PM
Regarding brake checking, I'd love to rig up something that would make my brake lights illuminate without me having to hit the brake.
Regarding prosecutions, I vaguely remember a couple of prosecutions arising out of road rage incidents merely because someone took out a gun and displayed it or placed it on the dash of their vehicle and they did NOT point the gun at anyone.
One of my vehicles I wired a switch to the backup lights, and I can turn them on with out engaging reverse.
Seems to work quite well on tailgaters.
If it doesn't, I don't brake check, but I do take my foot off the gas sometimes and see how slow they will go without passing.
Is road rage illegal?
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).
Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.
You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).
Technically, WSDOT allows passing over double yellows if there's an obstruction (RCW 46.61.100 (https://goo.gl/Ndhg8H), exception provided in RCW 46.61.130 (https://goo.gl/ChbCNC)). An "obstruction" is not defined, but a slow moving or stopped vehicle (bus, trash truck, heavily-ladened semi going up-hill, cyclists
in certain instance) might qualify. I think "obstruction" was meant to mean "hole in road" or something like that, but I see people in Seattle pass over double yellows for exactly those reasons all the time.
Surprise brake check without the brakelights:
downshift your automatic transmission
:sombrero:
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 08:26:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).
Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.
You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).
Technically, WSDOT allows passing over double yellows if there's an obstruction (RCW 46.61.100 (https://goo.gl/Ndhg8H), exception provided in RCW 46.61.130 (https://goo.gl/ChbCNC)). An "obstruction" is not defined, but a slow moving or stopped vehicle (bus, trash truck, heavily-ladened semi going up-hill, cyclists in certain instance) might qualify. I think "obstruction" was meant to mean "hole in road" or something like that, but I see people in Seattle pass over double yellows for exactly those reasons all the time.
Buses don't qualify, transit or school, so I imagine bikes should be treated similarly in an urban environment. Now if only SPD gave a shit about enforcing various laws, they'd make a lot of money.
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 10:49:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 08:26:36 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 06:00:42 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 17, 2017, 05:04:42 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2017, 03:05:22 PM
Bicycling in the middle of a lane with a sharrow under me? People will pass double yellows to get around me (only to end up stopped at the traffic light up ahead...with me catching up in time).
Um, passing vehicles like bicycles and horse drawn carriages is perfectly legal in quite a few jurisdictions.
You have to give a fair bit of space (3 feet or more) and not cross double yellows into oncoming traffic. I've come close to dying several times because people don't know how close they pass (or don't care).
Technically, WSDOT allows passing over double yellows if there's an obstruction (RCW 46.61.100 (https://goo.gl/Ndhg8H), exception provided in RCW 46.61.130 (https://goo.gl/ChbCNC)). An "obstruction" is not defined, but a slow moving or stopped vehicle (bus, trash truck, heavily-ladened semi going up-hill, cyclists in certain instance) might qualify. I think "obstruction" was meant to mean "hole in road" or something like that, but I see people in Seattle pass over double yellows for exactly those reasons all the time.
Buses don't qualify, transit or school, so I imagine bikes should be treated similarly in an urban environment. Now if only SPD gave a shit about enforcing various laws, they'd make a lot of money.
Do we know that for sure? I would have no problem passing a
stopped metro bus, regardless of the center line, and in my experience, neither would/do most people. It simply doesn't make sense to wait behind a metro bus that's just camped out in the middle of the road. I've even seen, on occasion, oncoming traffic shift over to the right to accommodate traffic that is overtaking the bus. That's cooperation, if I've ever seen it.
The reason that bikes are often grouped in with metro buses (school buses are totally different, of course) is because they have about the same average speed (taking into account the bus having to stop every dozen-ish blocks). It's really hard to resist overtaking a cyclist. They are doing nothing wrong, of course. But, with adaptive signals nowadays, you're bound to a miss a light if you let too much of a gap develop. Plus, what cyclist wants a car on their ass for blocks on end? I'd rather cars go around me. Just in case a driver gets on their phone, and accidentally bumps into me.
FWIW, I think not allowing passing over double yellow when passing a cyclist contributes to those close passes that often scare cyclists. Allowing passing over a double yellow would allow drivers to use the oncoming lane, giving the cyclist plenty of room. I tend to follow the UK Highway Code's guidance on passing (https://goo.gl/nFqVv6) cyclists (rule 163), which suggests passing a cyclist at the same distance you would a car. The example image is exactly how I pass a cyclist. I get into the oncoming lane, pass, and merge back over. I've never had a cyclist get angry with me. In fact, many wave "thanks" for granting them so much space (since people often pass within just a few feet).
EDIT: I'd like to point out that the UK permits overtaking upon a double-white (their version of double-yellow) when there is a stationary vehicle in front of you, or when passing a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (or less). See here: https://goo.gl/7uKHe2
Quote from: Jardine on September 17, 2017, 09:15:34 PM
Surprise brake check without the brakelights:
downshift your automatic transmission
Actually, this is a fact of life for many drivers of
manual gearboxes. I often downshift to brake, especially when approaching a signal from a distance. This means that my brake lights don't actually come on until I'm a dozen car-lengths back from the stop line, and I need my actual brakes to bring me to a halt. In heavy (but quick-moving) traffic, I often change gears to slow down, rather than constantly tapping my brakes. In some instances, this gives the impression that I'm brake-checking without braking, but that's never my intent (I don't brake check, ever).
Quote from: ParrDa on September 17, 2017, 08:54:34 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2017, 10:39:44 PM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 16, 2017, 06:35:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 16, 2017, 03:36:36 PM
Quote from: pumpkineater2 on September 16, 2017, 02:35:05 PM
One alternative to brake checking that I have observed on the road is activating your windshield washers....
Another alternative to brake checking is pulling off to the side and letting them by ... why do people insist on dealing with tailgaters themselves? Let them go. You (not you pumpkin) are the reason they are angry.
Well, for one, they're at fault. For two, the "slowpoke" isn't necessarily doing anything wrong. Maybe they shouldn't insist on trying to get ahead in such a rude, aggressive manner (in other words, they're the ones that are wrongly trying to take things in their own hands). If Car A really is at fault, for left lane camping, etc They have several other options, 4 way flashers being the one least disruptive to traffic flow.
Personally, instead of riding on someone's bumper, I'll wait it out in the right lane until I can pass at a reasonable speed differential. Unless, of course, my place in line is in jeopardy :D
I'm not trying to suggest that the tailgater is somehow in the right. Whatever distance they are following at, it probably wouldn't be construed as safe or reasonable by an officer. But, in order for someone to tailgate, there has to be a car to tailgate. The only safe way to diffuse the situation, lest you're a cop, is to simply get out of their way. Don't let them tailgate.
By not taking measures to get out of their way, you are contributing to the problem just as much as they are. The tailgater is creating a problem where there wasn't one (unless the car they're following is camping in the left lane), but you are creating another problem by taking no steps to rget out of their way. Be the bigger person in the situation, and just move.
If I can move over without slowing down, certainly. If I'm passing at a decent rate, which I usually am, I'm not going to let someone force me to speed up. I'm not obligated to let them slow me down, roar by, and do the same thing to the next car in line.
I'm not one that gives tailgaters much of an opportunity anyways, all I'm saying is that the car being tailgated is not adding to the problem unless they start disrupting traffic flow by braking, etc., which in not going to do unless I'm really angry.
If I'm consistently passing, I have no obligation to get out of the way. Period.
I was attempting to speak from the perspective of a driver who has the opportunity to move over, but chooses not to (instead, forcing their opinion of a safe speed on the driver behind them by brake-checking them into oblivion). If I was in your situation (nowhere to move, but already overtaking), I would signal right, and try to squeeze in to the line of cars in the number 2 lane, to let the fast driver by. I think it's very selfish to enforce your own speed limit on the road. I understand the temptation is to get angry. You feel like you're doing everything right (except speeding, you hypocrite :-D). But the only sure-fire way to diffuse the situation is to simply not let the tailgating happen. And the only way to do that is to move out of the way.
The Washington State Patrol has a website on how to deal with aggressive drivers, and those exhibiting road rage: http://www.wsp.wa.gov/traveler/roadrage.htm -- note that the only mention of brake-checking is that it's something you shouldn't do, because it can be interpreted as an act of aggression. And we wonder why this thread exists....
For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).
This morning a guy used the right turn lane to make a left turn, just so he can bypass the left turning traffic onto Weber Rd. off of the I-55 exit ramp.
A guy driving a squatted F-350 followed me back to my house to "kick my ass". Needless to say, he didn't make it out without a rebar but bustin'.
Quote from: ColossalBlocks on September 18, 2017, 09:56:49 AM
A guy driving a squatted F-350 followed me back to my house to "kick my ass". Needless to say, he didn't make it out without a rebar but bustin'.
:confused: Not sure I follow. Did something happen to him along the way?
Generally, if one's en route home and somebody is tailing them; road-rage or no road-rage, the
last thing one should do is head to their home (why let the tail-gater know where one lives?). It's better to take a detour & head over towards the nearest police station. Usually the sight of seeing a tailed vehicle turn into a police station parking lot is enough to cause the tail-gater to
move on. Note: the above-scenario assumes that such is taking place along
familiar territory (for the one being tailed).
Quote from: inkyatari on September 18, 2017, 09:02:25 AM
This morning a guy used the right turn lane to make a left turn, just so he can bypass the left turning traffic onto Weber Rd. off of the I-55 exit ramp.
That's about par for the course here. Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 18, 2017, 07:35:43 AM
For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).
Unlike most people, I prefer to diffuse situations, instead of exacerbating them. In the case of someone tailgating in the right lane, I would make every attempt to get out of their way. Either by speeding up to allow them to change lanes, pulling into the shoulder, etc. If someone is tailgating in the right lane, they
must be desperate. I see no reason to get in their way.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 11:47:57 PM
I was attempting to speak from the perspective of a driver who has the opportunity to move over, but chooses not to (instead, forcing their opinion of a safe speed on the driver behind them by brake-checking them into oblivion). If I was in your situation (nowhere to move, but already overtaking), I would signal right, and try to squeeze in to the line of cars in the number 2 lane, to let the fast driver by. I think it's very selfish to enforce your own speed limit on the road. I understand the temptation is to get angry. You feel like you're doing everything right (except speeding, you hypocrite :-D). But the only sure-fire way to diffuse the situation is to simply not let the tailgating happen. And the only way to do that is to move out of the way.
IMO that's where your logic, though not your intention, is flawed. Keep in mind that by being in the left lane and passing, you are forcing your speed on everyone else anyways, tailgaters or otherwise.
Moving over at all costs will likely get you some enemies in the right (or center) lane and disrupt the flow of the left lane as well, since you'll inevitably have to slow down first.
I'm all about efficiency :D
That's kind of a straw man argument, don't you think? I was talking about a very specific scenario.
Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
That's about par for the course here. Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.
Boston.
Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
That's about par for the course here. Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.
Boston.
www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=9985
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 30, 2013, 12:46:41 PMMiami. I have driven in every major US metropolitan area larger than, oh approximately Branson, Missouri. so I think I have a good scientific basis for this opinion... and, trust me, folks, it's Miami.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/06/27/where-to-find-americas-worst-drivers/#7c808f784d0f
QuoteBeantown can lay claim to having the worst drivers in the nation — getting into wrecks an average of once every 3.6 years — according to Allstate's 13th annual America's Best Drivers Report.
Quote
Boston, MA: 3.6 years between accidents.
Baltimore, MD: 4.2 years between accidents.
Worcester, MA: 4.3 years between accidents.
Washington, D.C. 4.3 years between accidents.
Springfield, MA: 5.3 years between accidents.
Glendale, CA: 5.5 years between accidents.
Providence, RI: 5.7 years between accidents.
Los Angeles, CA: 5.9 years between accidents.
New Haven, CT: 6.1 years between accidents.
Philadelphia, PA: 6.1 years between accidents.
Years between accidents is just one possible measure, but it seems like a good one to me.
Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 05:10:23 PM
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2017/06/27/where-to-find-americas-worst-drivers/#7c808f784d0f
QuoteBeantown can lay claim to having the worst drivers in the nation — getting into wrecks an average of once every 3.6 years — according to Allstate's 13th annual America's Best Drivers Report.
Quote
Boston, MA: 3.6 years between accidents.
Baltimore, MD: 4.2 years between accidents.
Worcester, MA: 4.3 years between accidents.
Washington, D.C. 4.3 years between accidents.
Springfield, MA: 5.3 years between accidents.
Glendale, CA: 5.5 years between accidents.
Providence, RI: 5.7 years between accidents.
Los Angeles, CA: 5.9 years between accidents.
New Haven, CT: 6.1 years between accidents.
Philadelphia, PA: 6.1 years between accidents.
Years between accidents is just one possible measure, but it seems like a good one to me.
They just don't report the minor crap here. You'd swear they buy vehicles from the factory with dents. Of course, there's no inspections in Illinois beyond emissions for vehicles older than 5 years of age.
I found Boston drivers to be just fine on their freeways, driving through. Still have yet to see anyone drive on the sidewalk other than in Chicago.
You think there are no unreported fender benders in Boston or other cities?
I've seen people driving on sidewalks in Seattle a couple of times... to get around a vehicle blocking traffic in the street usually.
Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 05:21:40 PM
I've seen people driving on sidewalks in Seattle a couple of times... to get around a vehicle blocking traffic in the street usually.
Of all the cities in the PNW, I've always thought Seattle drivers were the best. They hardly look at their phone, don't doddle along (always moving at speed limit or higher), always maneuver around turning traffic (as you describe), scoot over to allow oncoming drivers to overtakes stopped vehicles, always pull forward to turn left (rather than camping at the stop line à la every other PNW city), and so on.
My measure of "best" and "worst" is not the number of crashes. A minor fender bender is not a big deal. The "worst" drivers are those that are slow, inattentive, and generally uninterested in being in a car at all, and therefore suck at driving in general. The kind of people that immediately start using their phones at a red light.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 10:35:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 11:47:57 PM
I was attempting to speak from the perspective of a driver who has the opportunity to move over, but chooses not to (instead, forcing their opinion of a safe speed on the driver behind them by brake-checking them into oblivion). If I was in your situation (nowhere to move, but already overtaking), I would signal right, and try to squeeze in to the line of cars in the number 2 lane, to let the fast driver by. I think it's very selfish to enforce your own speed limit on the road. I understand the temptation is to get angry. You feel like you're doing everything right (except speeding, you hypocrite :-D). But the only sure-fire way to diffuse the situation is to simply not let the tailgating happen. And the only way to do that is to move out of the way.
IMO that's where your logic, though not your intention, is flawed. Keep in mind that by being in the left lane and passing, you are forcing your speed on everyone else anyways, tailgaters or otherwise.
Moving over at all costs will likely get you some enemies in the right (or center) lane and disrupt the flow of the left lane as well, since you'll inevitably have to slow down first.
I'm all about efficiency :D
That's kind of a straw man argument, don't you think? I was talking about a very specific scenario.
Actually, you were talking about two very specific scenarios. My response was to what you said about the second scenario: (nowhere to move, but already overtaking). I assumed everything you said afterwards was with reference to the second scenario. My apologies if not.
Either way, if you'd like to call my response an argument, it's certainly not a baseless one. One does not have to be brake-checking to be in control of the maximum speed others can drive on the freeway. If I'm going 70 in the left lane, passing someone doing 60, who is passing someone doing 55, I am in effect "enforcing" my speed on anyone who approaches (until I finish passing and move over). And there is nothing wrong or selfish about me doing that.
As to your suggested means of dealing with scenario 2; I think it's obvious that it would lead to the effects I mentioned.
I guess I believe there's a happy medium between controlling others and letting others control you.
And I also believe that it's possible to neither diffuse nor exacerbate a tailgating scenario; let them ride your bumper until you're finished passing.
The "scenarios" all have the same root cause: someone is tailgating you (however close that is, is up to you). My suggestion to solve this was to move over. Signal first (preferrably) and then change lanes. You then proposed the idea that this may actually annoy someone else. While that certainly may be true (cutting in close can be annoying), I was under the impression that we were talking about drivers who are "road raging", which is to say, driving extremely close, perhaps gesturing or honking (maybe even leaning out the window and swearing), and how we might deal with
them. If you cut someone off, attempting to get out of the way of someone raging on you, only to find that you enraged someone else, then just change lanes
again, or pull off into the shoulder, and assess your life.
You are only forcing your speed on someone else if you aren't keeping right. In the scenario you describe, yes, you are enforcing a 70 mph limit on the left lane. That's not a problem unless someone is approaching from behind, or is already right up on you. Or, if you are able to move right, but refuse because you think 70 (or whatever speed you're doing) is plenty (the case for a lot people, and IMO the cause of a lot of road rage).
Quote from: ParrDa on September 19, 2017, 11:30:54 PM
^ So I guess we were envisioning different levels of road rage. In most cases, tailgating is not that severe. If it was to the point you described (and I hope I'm never in a situation that escalates that far) then I don't have any problem with your solution. I think at that point others on the road would realize your intentions and allow you to get out of the way.
As far as a standard tailgating scenario (which IMO is when headlights are not visible) where no ones life or vehicle is in danger, I think we're on the same page and my points still stand :D
Note that I said "perhaps". I wasn't envisioning every scenario involving gesturing and horn-blaring. Even if someone was following close (no headlights visible seems very reasonable to me), I'd consider that to be a mild display of anger/rage. I'd still move over as quickly as possible. Here in Seattle, the standard rush-hour following distance (when travelling between 45 and 65 mph) is about .5 to 1 second...maybe? If someone gets closer than that, they clearly are in a rush and I see no reason to get in their way. I'd signal right, wait for a gap, and then move over (I wouldn't cram in). On a two-lane road, I'd definitely pull off into the shoulder. The longer they have to wait behind me, the angrier they'll probably get.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 19, 2017, 11:30:54 PM
Back on a strictly thread-related note, I would like to think that I would never do anything to make someone mad enough to fly into road rage. Personally, I never regard my own speed as "fast enough". I think the combination of keeping right and moving a little faster than the "average" speed, is the best way to avoid generating anger on the road. If someone wants to pass me, I let them by and take it as an indication that I can/should go faster, something I'm rarely afraid to do :D
Therefore, if I'm in a road rage incident (And I'm starting to think I'm fairly liberal with the use of that term), it's probably me that was mad first.
Thank fuck! The number of people who feel their own speed is suddenly the maximum limit is alarming. I see it all the time, even in my parents (who drive just as fast as I do (usually 10-15 over on the freeways)). I try to tell them, but they always respond with the same "I think XX is fast enough". Total bullshit.
I pretty much drive the same as you. I always let faster drivers by, stay right when possible, don't get angry at people driving faster than me, etc. Self-righteousness is a terrible trait for a driver.
Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:54:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2017, 01:25:56 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 18, 2017, 07:35:43 AM
For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).
Unlike most people, I prefer to diffuse situations, instead of exacerbating them. In the case of someone tailgating in the right lane, I would make every attempt to get out of their way. Either by speeding up to allow them to change lanes, pulling into the shoulder, etc. If someone is tailgating in the right lane, they must be desperate. I see no reason to get in their way.
On this, we agree. Tailgating in the right lane is rare enough in my area that I'd presume they're either irate or in an emergency.
See, people here tailgate everywhere. Last night someone was riding my rear bumper in the Metro parking garage. I wasn't crawling, but I don't speed through parking either because of cars suddenly backing out without looking, pedestrians appearing from between big SUVs, etc.
If you go 65 mph in the right lane on the Beltway (speed limit is 55), usually someone will come up close behind you. If that happens to me, I won't move. There are three other lanes to the left.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2017, 08:39:01 AM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:54:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2017, 01:25:56 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 18, 2017, 07:35:43 AM
For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).
Unlike most people, I prefer to diffuse situations, instead of exacerbating them. In the case of someone tailgating in the right lane, I would make every attempt to get out of their way. Either by speeding up to allow them to change lanes, pulling into the shoulder, etc. If someone is tailgating in the right lane, they must be desperate. I see no reason to get in their way.
On this, we agree. Tailgating in the right lane is rare enough in my area that I'd presume they're either irate or in an emergency.
See, people here tailgate everywhere. Last night someone was riding my rear bumper in the Metro parking garage. I wasn't crawling, but I don't speed through parking either because of cars suddenly backing out without looking, pedestrians appearing from between big SUVs, etc.
If you go 65 mph in the right lane on the Beltway (speed limit is 55), usually someone will come up close behind you. If that happens to me, I won't move. There are three other lanes to the left.
Just to clarify, if they come up on you in the right lane, and get close enough that the headlamps aren't visible, you won't do anything to try and change things? I also don't like people riding my bumper. But, unlike a lot of people it would seem, I actually try and do things to get them off my bumper. Brake-checking is dumb because you're likely to cause an accident. I'd change lanes and just let them by. Especially if there were two or three packed lanes to my left (i.e. they are attempting to pass on the right).
Quote from: ParrDa on September 21, 2017, 12:58:42 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 20, 2017, 12:29:14 AM
Note that I said "perhaps". I wasn't envisioning every scenario involving gesturing and horn-blaring. Even if someone was following close (no headlights visible seems very reasonable to me), I'd consider that to be a mild display of anger/rage. I'd still move over as quickly as possible. Here in Seattle, the standard rush-hour following distance (when travelling between 45 and 65 mph) is about .5 to 1 second...maybe? If someone gets closer than that, they clearly are in a rush and I see no reason to get in their way. I'd signal right, wait for a gap, and then move over (I wouldn't cram in). On a two-lane road, I'd definitely pull off into the shoulder. The longer they have to wait behind me, the angrier they'll probably get.
See, I don't necessarily think of tailgating as a sign of anger. I mean, sure, if you did something to obstruct flow first, or if they continue getting closer or do it for a long time, then it becomes obvious. But I wouldn't move over just for them the second they get too close, I would finish passing. Though I do agree that they'll probably become more angry over time, that's their problem, and I'll usually find a gap in traffic in the next lane over within a mile or so anyways (unless there's congestion, which stands alone IMO).
I wouldn't change lanes within seconds of them approaching me. I'm extremely observant, but even I will wait a couple seconds before determining whether or not they are just being light on the brakes (using just enough brakes to not hit me, but not enough to maintain a reasonable following distance). When braking (since I drive a 6-speed), I will downshift when I see cars slowing in front of me. I will only use the brakes if my downshift doesn't provide enough braking power to keep from getting really close. Sometimes I get really close when doing this, close enough that I can sense the annoyance of the driver in front of me. I usually back off quickly to keep them from attempting to brake-check me.
I've had the finger directed at me twice; once, when I was 17, headed to Phoenix, before US 60 was divided near Superior. Long line of cars, SUV was tailgating me and I had to hit the brakes to avoid a cyclist coming into the lane from the shoulder. SUV driver took this as an act of brake checking, had his passengers flip me off once they got ahead of me.
The other instance was about a year ago, at a 4-way stop; high school kid didn't know the order, we both entered at the same time without slowing, and they put up a finger as they passed by. Caught on my dash cam.
With regard to the big discussion on tailgating and brake checking earlier in the thread, I try my best to appease tailgaters, to the point that as soon as I see someone approaching my back bumper, I get into the other lane. This gets irksome when they get on my bumper but refuse to pass; I will go 5-10 over if conditions allow it... I will not be somebody's trail blazer. Pass or get off my ass.
Have you ever been mad another driver and reacted in a way that you now regret?
I did just that, this morning on NY 104. The left lane camping (and slow passing) on that road through Webster is terrible. So my strategy is to show by example, and move into every available space in the right lane. A bit of lane changing, sure, but I'm convinced that it improves overall flow.
Anyways, this morning, two drivers around me must gotten annoyed with my switching back and forth, and decided not to let me back into the left lane. Well, that irked me, because had they moved right (there was plenty of space to do so), I would not have been on the right in the first place. So I sped up and wedged my way back in where there clearly was no longer space to do so, causing the Buick behind me to hit the brakes and give me a not-so-friendly honk. I then tapped my own brakes, put on my four-way-flashers for about ten blinks or so, and then roared off.
Now, I feel like an idiot for doing that when there were so many better and less disruptive solutions, none of which would have resulted in irking other drivers :-( But I still hate left-lane campers ;-)
Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
That's about par for the course here. Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.
Boston.
Maryland, and I saw the following while living in Virginia:
I was living on the south side of a one-way street going eastbound, three lanes wide. A woman pulled over while my roommate and I were outside and asked for directions. We gave them to her, they involved "go back the other way." She thanked us, got back in her car, made a U-turn, and drove the wrong way up the one-way street.
Yesterday, while walking in Renton, Washington, I was assaulted by a driver. She got out of her car and punched me in the face.
My crime? Using a crosswalk and crossing a slip lane when I had a legal right to do so. A driver had stopped there and waited for me (as required by state law, and common courtesy), while the lady behind him (the one who punched me) honked like there was no tomorrow.
Looking at legal options right now, but I'm sick and tired of pedestrians being treated like garbage in this country.
In all my experiences driving I would say Boston is the worst city to drive in. Combine the narrow streets with people that don't know how to drive, they weave in and out of lanes, tailgate excessively. It's really not just Boston either but all of Massachusetts as Springfield and Worcester are the same way.
Quote from: Bruce on February 14, 2018, 08:43:41 PM
Yesterday, while walking in Renton, Washington, I was assaulted by a driver. She got out of her car and punched me in the face.
My crime? Using a crosswalk and crossing a slip lane when I had a legal right to do so. A driver had stopped there and waited for me (as required by state law, and common courtesy), while the lady behind him (the one who punched me) honked like there was no tomorrow.
Looking at legal options right now, but I'm sick and tired of pedestrians being treated like garbage in this country.
This sounds like an edge case. I'm aware of the occasional difficulties faced by pedestrians at slip lanes, but this is far worse than the errant "get out of my way" honk. How exactly did it escalate to the point that a woman punched you? I don't hear of that happening very often.
^ I agree. People are (usually) more courteous and forgiving in situations involving pedestrians. Car vs. person is not even close to fair game - and besides, who gets irked by pedestrians? We all know they have the right-of-way, and it's not like you're encountering them on high-speed roads anyways.
In fact, as a general principle, I'd say road rage is rare period on non-freeways. That leads me to conclude that this case is... well... a little strange, for lack of better terms.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2017, 07:29:18 AM
Quote from: plain on September 14, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
The last time I actually got that mad myself was about 13 years ago, I was on I-64 EB just east of Exit 192 in the left lane using my pop's '80 Chevy pickup to move a couple of dressers (not the greatest stopping power as you can imagine). A lady in a convertible got in the left lane and then slowed all of a sudden to turn into the "authorized vehicles only" cut to perform a U-turn. I slammed on brakes and came within inches of hitting her. I threw the Big Gulp I was drinking and it landed right on the back of her head... that was followed by me yelling "bitch!!!"
Nowadays in Virginia they might prosecute you for that.
Technically assault and battery practically anywhere. Even throwing water on someone in an aggressive manner could as well. Even when they "deserve it".
Fighting is illegal, and that is what most road rage incidents are. Legal definition of fighting is an altercation that both parties contributed to the escalation thereof.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 11:38:11 PM
Quote from: Jardine on September 17, 2017, 09:15:34 PM
Surprise brake check without the brakelights:
downshift your automatic transmission
Actually, this is a fact of life for many drivers of manual gearboxes. I often downshift to brake, especially when approaching a signal from a distance. This means that my brake lights don't actually come on until I'm a dozen car-lengths back from the stop line, and I need my actual brakes to bring me to a halt. In heavy (but quick-moving) traffic, I often change gears to slow down, rather than constantly tapping my brakes. In some instances, this gives the impression that I'm brake-checking without braking, but that's never my intent (I don't brake check, ever).
I do that routinely with an automatic, downshifting rather than riding the brakes down a long grade. With the modern 6-speed trans there are a number of gears to choose from.
I was involved in what I would unquestionably deem a "road rage incident" this morning... except that I wasn't enraged at all. Another driver just decided to take major offense to the consequences of his own stupidity.
I was heading north on a 55 mph, two lane road in an active passing zone, when a silver chevy pickup pulled out in front of me from a side street. It wasn't the most egregious example of such I've encountered, but I was coming up at a pretty good clip (approximately 65 mph) and had to noticeably slam on the brakes; though not immediately, braking was inevitable and I could not have handled it by coasting. It just so happened that a few southbound cars were coming as I braked but it was clear sailing to pass after those cars. It also so happens to be a location where the speed limit drops from 55 mph to 40 mph, but passing is legal throughout. So when the southbound cars cleared, I immediately pulled out to pass, got back up to roughly my previous speed while completing the pass, at which point the pickup driver gave an extensive honk. I completed the pass safely and then pulled back in, already in the 40 mph zone at that point.
We both continued; I caught up to a slow moving string of traffic at the next traffic signal and didn't think much more of it. However about 2 miles later, with this driver still behind me, I was preparing to turn left into a side street. The shoulder is wide enough to pass and doing so is quite common, but I was mildly annoyed enough by being honked at that I briefly considering moving right a bit and blocking his potential zone to pass so he'd have to wait for me. But I decided to take the high road, not potentially anger him further, and be internally consistent with my mindset of "drive in a manner that improves efficiency for other drivers as much as possible". So, I hugged right up to the yellow line to be sure he'd have enough room to go by, which he did, but not without rolling his window down and loudly yelling "Asshole!" as he zoomed past. I then considered pulling out from my turning position and following him, at least to get his license plate, but decided it just wasn't worth my time and energy and that was the end of it.
I consider myself to be a fair and respectful driver, so I was briefly pretty irritated to have been called an asshole by a stranger, mostly because (a) the reason I even considered passing him (in a legal passing zone!) was 100% self-inflicted, and (b) I actually could have been an entitled asshole by making him wait for me to complete my turn, but actively chose not to instead, and he had zero comprehension of or respect for that decision. All this leads me to conclude that he is, in fact, the asshole, and I hope to never meet up with him on the road again. Too bad for him that his Monday morning got off to such an ugly start while I go report and decompress about the incident on a roads forum. :-D :-D
This was the first time I've been explicitly name-called by another driver while driving. I have received a bird or two, and one time some kids in the back of a van shouted something intended for me but I couldn't make out what they said, nor did I care to.
Reminds me of the time someone flipped me off for following "keep right except to pass" and using my cruise control when they got off I-490 at exit 28. I guess as much as those of us who use cruise control hate those who refuse to do so, the reverse is true as well.
Quote from: vdeane on July 15, 2024, 12:53:13 PMReminds me of the time someone flipped me off for following "keep right except to pass" and using my cruise control when they got off I-490 at exit 28. I guess as much as those of us who use cruise control hate those who refuse to do so, the reverse is true as well.
Heh. I use my cruise control entering and leaving my neighborhood to hold 26 mph (the speed limit is 25, but my cruise only works above 25). I doubt the tailgaters and road ragers know I have my cruise control on, but some of them are convinced they have a right to go 50 mph through there.
Quote from: webny99 on July 15, 2024, 08:30:08 AMI was involved in what I would unquestionably deem a "road rage incident" this morning... except that I wasn't enraged at all. Another driver just decided to take major offense to the consequences of his own stupidity.
I was heading north on a 55 mph, two lane road in an active passing zone, when a silver chevy pickup pulled out in front of me from a side street. It wasn't the most egregious example of such I've encountered, but I was coming up at a pretty good clip (approximately 65 mph) and had to noticeably slam on the brakes; though not immediately, braking was inevitable and I could not have handled it by coasting. It just so happened that a few southbound cars were coming as I braked but it was clear sailing to pass after those cars. It also so happens to be a location where the speed limit drops from 55 mph to 40 mph, but passing is legal throughout. So when the southbound cars cleared, I immediately pulled out to pass, got back up to roughly my previous speed while completing the pass, at which point the pickup driver gave an extensive honk. I completed the pass safely and then pulled back in, already in the 40 mph zone at that point.
We both continued; I caught up to a slow moving string of traffic at the next traffic signal and didn't think much more of it. However about 2 miles later, with this driver still behind me, I was preparing to turn left into a side street. The shoulder is wide enough to pass and doing so is quite common, but I was mildly annoyed enough by being honked at that I briefly considering moving right a bit and blocking his potential zone to pass so he'd have to wait for me. But I decided to take the high road, not potentially anger him further, and be internally consistent with my mindset of "drive in a manner that improves efficiency for other drivers as much as possible". So, I hugged right up to the yellow line to be sure he'd have enough room to go by, which he did, but not without rolling his window down and loudly yelling "Asshole!" as he zoomed past. I then considered pulling out from my turning position and following him, at least to get his license plate, but decided it just wasn't worth my time and energy and that was the end of it.
I consider myself to be a fair and respectful driver, so I was briefly pretty irritated to have been called an asshole by a stranger, mostly because (a) the reason I even considered passing him (in a legal passing zone!) was 100% self-inflicted, and (b) I actually could have been an entitled asshole by making him wait for me to complete my turn, but actively chose not to instead, and he had zero comprehension of or respect for that decision. All this leads me to conclude that he is, in fact, the asshole, and I hope to never meet up with him on the road again. Too bad for him that his Monday morning got off to such an ugly start while I go report and decompress about the incident on a roads forum. :-D :-D
This was the first time I've been explicitly name-called by another driver while driving. I have received a bird or two, and one time some kids in the back of a van shouted something intended for me but I couldn't make out what they said, nor did I care to.
What good would it have done to get his license plate number?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 15, 2024, 01:03:06 PMWhat good would it have done to get his license plate number?
Probably nothing, except to report him, but there wouldn't have been much of a case for anything since he didn't technically do anything harmful (except for "intent to cause a rear-end collision", but it wasn't
that bad).
More than anything I would have just loved the opportunity to calmly explain "you do realize I passed you in a legal passing zone because you pulled out right in front of me and I had to slam on the brakes, right?" just to see how he would respond. But following him would have been a huge time waste while potentially putting myself in danger, so I just came here to vent instead. :sombrero:
No crime, no point.
Police don't have time to investigate all the actual crimes, let alone all the noncriminal bad behavior.
Quote from: webny99 on July 15, 2024, 01:17:51 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on July 15, 2024, 01:03:06 PMWhat good would it have done to get his license plate number?
Probably nothing, except to report him, but there wouldn't have been much of a case for anything since he didn't technically do anything harmful (except for "intent to cause a rear-end collision", but it wasn't that bad).
More than anything I would have just loved the opportunity to calmly explain "you do realize I passed you in a legal passing zone because you pulled out right in front of me and I had to slam on the brakes, right?" just to see how he would respond. But following him would have been a huge time waste while potentially putting myself in danger, so I just came here to vent instead. :sombrero:
Or you could always do what someone else would do in the same circumstance you had:
1. Keep going full speed until you're right on the bumper.
2. Slam on the brakes while loudly blaring the horn.
3. Rant.
4. Take the footage from your dashcam and compile it with other incidents into a video.
5. Upload the video to YouTube.
6. Post the link here and on Facebook.
Quote from: webny99 on July 15, 2024, 08:30:08 AMI immediately pulled out to pass, got back up to roughly my previous speed while completing the pass, at which point the pickup driver gave an extensive honk
Did webny99 just have a Lord Carhorn encounter?
Quote from: vdeane on July 15, 2024, 09:42:16 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 15, 2024, 01:17:51 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on July 15, 2024, 01:03:06 PMWhat good would it have done to get his license plate number?
Probably nothing, except to report him, but there wouldn't have been much of a case for anything since he didn't technically do anything harmful (except for "intent to cause a rear-end collision", but it wasn't that bad).
More than anything I would have just loved the opportunity to calmly explain "you do realize I passed you in a legal passing zone because you pulled out right in front of me and I had to slam on the brakes, right?" just to see how he would respond. But following him would have been a huge time waste while potentially putting myself in danger, so I just came here to vent instead. :sombrero:
Or you could always do what someone else would do in the same circumstance you had:
1. Keep going full speed until you're right on the bumper.
2. Slam on the brakes while loudly blaring the horn.
3. Rant.
4. Take the footage from your dashcam and compile it with other incidents into a video.
5. Upload the video to YouTube.
6. Post the link here and on Facebook.
You forgot about blasting the person with your high-beams (which is one fad I don't understand—blinding someone doesn't seem like it's going to help anything).
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2024, 07:38:03 AMYou forgot about blasting the person with your high-beams (which is one fad I don't understand—blinding someone doesn't seem like it's going to help anything).
Did Carhorn do that? I don't recall it, but I wasn't looking for high beam reflection either.
Quote from: vdeane on July 15, 2024, 12:53:13 PMReminds me of the time someone flipped me off for following "keep right except to pass" and using my cruise control when they got off I-490 at exit 28. I guess as much as those of us who use cruise control hate those who refuse to do so, the reverse is true as well.
Missed this yesterday, but that stretch of I-490 in particular seems to be one where KRETP adherence is completely out the window. I think it's because the added lane from Exit 27 comes in on the right, so keeping to the right lane requires
three lane changes (one to the right, then two to the left) for those accessing the Thruway EB. As such, drivers that would normally KRETP end up middle lane camping, while those that normally middle lane camp end up left lane camping. Yet another reason why 25-27 should be six lanes and the ramp to the Thruway EB should be two lanes: it would take the number of lane changes required to KRETP from three down to just one.
I don't mind whether or not anyone uses cruise control, but I do prefer that those that do use it have some flexibility. In cases where you're passing with a very small speed differential, It's a reasonable ask that you either bump your cruise up by a mph or two to get past someone, or down by a mph or two to move right and let others pass. In most vehicles, speeding up doesn't even require adjusting the cruise settings at all - you can just accelerate as needed and your cruise setting will resume once you take your foot back off the accelerator. This works well on the Thruway when attempting not to disrupt traffic flowing at 80+ mph on the left while also not wanting to have the cruise set that high.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2024, 07:38:03 AMYou forgot about blasting the person with your high-beams (which is one fad I don't understand—blinding someone doesn't seem like it's going to help anything).
Considering this occurred in broad daylight, it's more likely I wouldn't have noticed at all. High beams and headlights in general tend to go unnoticed by me except between dusk and dawn.
Quote from: vdeane on July 16, 2024, 12:52:34 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2024, 07:38:03 AMYou forgot about blasting the person with your high-beams (which is one fad I don't understand—blinding someone doesn't seem like it's going to help anything).
Did Carhorn do that? I don't recall it, but I wasn't looking for high beam reflection either.
He'll flash his lights in his videos where the driver in front if him isn't going fast enough, taking too long at the McDonald's drive thru, or whatever Cra-Shit claims is incorrect at that particular point in time.
Quote from: webny99 on July 15, 2024, 01:17:51 PMQuote from: SEWIGuy on July 15, 2024, 01:03:06 PMWhat good would it have done to get his license plate number?
Probably nothing, except to report him, but there wouldn't have been much of a case for anything since he didn't technically do anything harmful (except for "intent to cause a rear-end collision", but it wasn't that bad).
More than anything I would have just loved the opportunity to calmly explain "you do realize I passed you in a legal passing zone because you pulled out right in front of me and I had to slam on the brakes, right?" just to see how he would respond. But following him would have been a huge time waste while potentially putting myself in danger, so I just came here to vent instead. :sombrero:
Reporting that someone honked and called you an asshole? What kind of glare from the cop are you thinking you're going to get when telling them that?
Frankly, I'm not even sure where road rage comes into play here. You would need to site the state statutes that he violated. I guess the excessive horn honking would qualify, although that's gonna be very subjective. He, or the cop, will ask after you've told them you passed the guy, did you reenter the lane too closely, causing him to honk his horn as an emergency measure?
Quote from: vdeane on July 16, 2024, 12:52:34 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2024, 07:38:03 AMYou forgot about blasting the person with your high-beams (which is one fad I don't understand—blinding someone doesn't seem like it's going to help anything).
Did Carhorn do that? I don't recall it, but I wasn't looking for high beam reflection either.
I wasn't referring to him, at least not intentionally. I was more referring to something I see all the time in the DC area where people who don't like what someone else does will high-beam the "offender" as though that's somehow going to help things. Sorry, I wasn't necessarily associating your comment with the former poster in question.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 16, 2024, 01:29:25 PMReporting that someone honked and called you an asshole? What kind of glare from the cop are you thinking you're going to get when telling them that?
Frankly, I'm not even sure where road rage comes into play here. You would need to site the state statutes that he violated. I guess the excessive horn honking would qualify, although that's gonna be very subjective. He, or the cop, will ask after you're told them you passed the guy, did you reenter the lane too closely, causing him to honk his horn as an emergency measure?
I agree. It was just the heat of the moment that caused the thought to briefly cross my mind. I shouldn't have bothered to even go into that much detail about it here but just wanted to capture the whole scope of what happened in my retelling of it. Ultimately this particular incident was way more about personal conduct violation than it was about rules of the road. The reason I called it road rage is because honking without a very good reason and name calling another driver are two things that, IMO, only an enraged driver would do.
You could also argue my insistence on passing him for causing me to brake is also something an enraged driver would do, but I would disagree. It's something an efficient driver who wishes to make the other driver aware of their error in judgment would do, and I was not enraged in the least in doing so... at least not until he blatantly missed the point. If his reaction had been surprise rather than anger, that would have been
exactly the intended result.
I've never encountered road rage before like three years ago. Now I'm seeing it regularly. Impatient, entitled, adult babies with zero self awareness and fragile egos. (And no doubt, sexually impotent/incompetent.)
Some genetic dead-end didn't like that I wasn't speeding fast enough while passing a truck in the left lane over the fourth and starts flashing his widdle lights and swerving back and forth in the lane until I completed my pass. Then he did that fake "I'm gonna side-swipe you" bullshit before speeding off at like 90. Didn't even give the fucker the time of day. If he had hit me with his temper tantrum, it would all have been on the trucker's dash cam.
Felt pretty smug about not taking little rage monkey's bait there.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2024, 01:55:04 PMQuote from: vdeane on July 16, 2024, 12:52:34 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on July 16, 2024, 07:38:03 AMYou forgot about blasting the person with your high-beams (which is one fad I don't understand—blinding someone doesn't seem like it's going to help anything).
Did Carhorn do that? I don't recall it, but I wasn't looking for high beam reflection either.
I wasn't referring to him, at least not intentionally. I was more referring to something I see all the time in the DC area where people who don't like what someone else does will high-beam the "offender" as though that's somehow going to help things. Sorry, I wasn't necessarily associating your comment with the former poster in question.
I had a former friend who was annoyed someone didn't turn their brights off when passing in the left lane, then was dismayed when he saw that said vehicle had a trailer which blocked him from retaliatory rage-brighting the guy.
I think some user's heads would explode here in Japan. There is a full expectation that you will slow down as needed to accommodate someone entering traffic. Traffic forcing their way out is very common here.
One common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
Another is that driveways are normally too narrow to accommodate both entering and leaving traffic. So if you're entering a driveway where someone is leaving, you let them leave and then you enter the driveway. But this means the curb lane of a roadway often has cars coming to a complete stop for a couple seconds while both drivers complete the switcheroo.
Another is turning right (across traffic, left-hand traffic here), sometimes at double right turns, the visibility isn't so good, so both lanes will turn right at the same time, but sometimes drivers just follow the car in front of them even if there's an oncoming car. But oncoming traffic is very good about slowing down to accommodate turning traffic that maybe should have waited. Never any honking or gesturing, just gentle accommodation.
Things are slower here, but the more relaxed driving style, and total lack of road rage, is so much better than back in the US.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
Quote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
Sometimes even when there was a perfectly usable gap behind a platoon that the "nice" person was seemingly oblivious to.
Got behind a guy on a two-lane highway once who was going exactly 55mph in a 55 zone. I prefer to go faster, but it never bothers me when someone wants to obey the law to the letter, so I settled in comfortably behind. When we got to one of those uphill passing lanes, he stayed in the left lane so I moved to the right to pass. He sped up, keeping ahead of me through the zone, but then slowing back down to exactly 55 as soon as the extra lane ended.
Needless to say I didn't appreciate that. The next time we got to a passing lane, I put it to the floor and cleared him. Didn't look at him, didn't gesture at him or anything. He immediately started tailgating me and shaking his fist at me. Tailgated me up to speeds as high as 70, which is as fast as I was willing to go on this road.
I found a spot with a gas station on the left, just as a line of oncoming traffic was approaching. Made him sit at a dead stop for 15 seconds or so before he decided to pass me on the gravel shoulder. Really thought he was going to stop and get out of his car.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on August 02, 2024, 01:29:28 PMI found a spot with a gas station on the left, just as a line of oncoming traffic was approaching. Made him sit at a dead stop for 15 seconds or so before he decided to pass me on the gravel shoulder. Really thought he was going to stop and get out of his car.
Wow. I respect this but don't think I would have had the guts or the composure to pull into somewhere where there was potential for him to follow me and/or get out of the car to pursue things further. In that situation, distance is your friend. I wouldn't have been comfortable with him knowing exactly where I was even if he
didn't follow me. I would have probably thrown him off by turning down a side street or something, even if it was just to let him go past and cool down for a minute before resuming the journey.
Last Labor Day weekend I was on my way to a work assignment in Alexandria, MN about 130 miles from MSP. After I passed St. Cloud I came to a work zone where I-94 narrowed to one lane with the left lane closing. There was a long but not outrageous backup in the right lane while the left lane mostly remained free, so I was driving significantly faster than the right lane up until I came upon a van in the left lane driving the speed of the stop and go traffic in the right lane. He would stop when the right lane stopped, then move as it moved, stop when it stopped again. I thought this was weird at first but became increasingly angered as it became clear this guy had zero intention of trying to get into the right lane. I had absolutely no idea what the fuck he was doing, and then we came to the top of a hill where I could see the lane closure was still a good mile-plus away and I was stuck behind this guy. I had never been so angered at another driver in my life.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 15, 2024, 10:43:57 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 15, 2024, 08:30:08 AMI immediately pulled out to pass, got back up to roughly my previous speed while completing the pass, at which point the pickup driver gave an extensive honk
Did webny99 just have a Lord Carhorn encounter?
Almost certainly if a library displaying Illinois style (meaning flat) architecture was around nearby.
Quote from: vdeane on August 02, 2024, 12:59:27 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
Sometimes even when there was a perfectly usable gap behind a platoon that the "nice" person was seemingly oblivious to.
^^^^
Perhaps ironically,
this is what I typically encountered in the US. Most drivers wouldn't stop, because there was [probably] a gap some number of cars behind them. That does not happen in Japan, 99% of drivers will stop to let you in regardless of what is happening behind them, and it happens almost immediately after nosing out from the side. No fuss, no honking, no raging.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on August 02, 2024, 04:22:14 PMLast Labor Day weekend I was on my way to a work assignment in Alexandria, MN about 130 miles from MSP. After I passed St. Cloud I came to a work zone where I-94 narrowed to one lane with the left lane closing. There was a long but not outrageous backup in the right lane while the left lane mostly remained free, so I was driving significantly faster than the right lane up until I came upon a van in the left lane driving the speed of the stop and go traffic in the right lane. He would stop when the right lane stopped, then move as it moved, stop when it stopped again. I thought this was weird at first but became increasingly angered as it became clear this guy had zero intention of trying to get into the right lane. I had absolutely no idea what the fuck he was doing, and then we came to the top of a hill where I could see the lane closure was still a good mile-plus away and I was stuck behind this guy. I had never been so angered at another driver in my life.
Actually... bear with me here, but I get what he was going for, especially considering this occurred in MN, where the DOT has been actively promoting zipper merging for construction-related lane closures. I also get why it was very frustrating - it is abrasive to do this when the lane is otherwise clear because it forces everyone behind them to slow way down when there's an open lane ahead. But when the alternative is to keep going and cut in to the right lane at an arbitrarily chosen spot (which is the primary cause of the backup to begin with), this does reduce overall delays. It's just unfair to try and force it upon other drivers since the whole idea is to improve efficiency and reduce delays, and that only works when everyone on the road does it. It clearly wasn't happening here when those behind him could have been much further down the road. I give an A for identifying the correct merging concept, but an F for being a control freak about it and forcing it upon everyone else when existing traffic patterns dictated otherwise.
Quote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
Quote from: webny99 on August 02, 2024, 07:22:22 PMQuote from: TheHighwayMan3561 on August 02, 2024, 04:22:14 PMLast Labor Day weekend I was on my way to a work assignment in Alexandria, MN about 130 miles from MSP. After I passed St. Cloud I came to a work zone where I-94 narrowed to one lane with the left lane closing. There was a long but not outrageous backup in the right lane while the left lane mostly remained free, so I was driving significantly faster than the right lane up until I came upon a van in the left lane driving the speed of the stop and go traffic in the right lane. He would stop when the right lane stopped, then move as it moved, stop when it stopped again. I thought this was weird at first but became increasingly angered as it became clear this guy had zero intention of trying to get into the right lane. I had absolutely no idea what the fuck he was doing, and then we came to the top of a hill where I could see the lane closure was still a good mile-plus away and I was stuck behind this guy. I had never been so angered at another driver in my life.
Actually... bear with me here, but I get what he was going for, especially considering this occurred in MN, where the DOT has been actively promoting zipper merging for construction-related lane closures. I also get why it was very frustrating - it is abrasive to do this when the lane is otherwise clear because it forces everyone behind them to slow way down when there's an open lane ahead. But when the alternative is to keep going and cut in to the right lane at an arbitrarily chosen spot (which is the primary cause of the backup to begin with), this does reduce overall delays. It's just unfair to try and force it upon other drivers since the whole idea is to improve efficiency and reduce delays, and that only works when everyone on the road does it. It clearly wasn't happening here when those behind him could have been much further down the road. I give an A for identifying the correct merging concept, but an F for being a control freak about it and forcing it upon everyone else when existing traffic patterns dictated otherwise.
I thought the merge point was much further up the road from the description in the OP. If that's the case, the van was just being a pain.
Quote from: epzik8 on August 02, 2024, 09:31:46 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
That's just another annoying extreme. Zipper!
Quote from: webny99 on August 02, 2024, 07:22:22 PMActually... bear with me here, but I get what he was going for, especially considering this occurred in MN, where the DOT has been actively promoting zipper merging for construction-related lane closures. I also get why it was very frustrating - it is abrasive to do this when the lane is otherwise clear because it forces everyone behind them to slow way down when there's an open lane ahead. But when the alternative is to keep going and cut in to the right lane at an arbitrarily chosen spot (which is the primary cause of the backup to begin with), this does reduce overall delays. It's just unfair to try and force it upon other drivers since the whole idea is to improve efficiency and reduce delays, and that only works when everyone on the road does it. It clearly wasn't happening here when those behind him could have been much further down the road. I give an A for identifying the correct merging concept, but an F for being a control freak about it and forcing it upon everyone else when existing traffic patterns dictated otherwise.
If he was promoting zipper merging, why slow down when the other lane was? Why not just take it to the end? Seems more like he's an early merger who got frustrated at "those people" and decided to "teach them a lesson" by blocking the ability of later mergers to pass traffic.
Quote from: vdeane on August 02, 2024, 09:41:40 PMIf he was promoting zipper merging, why slow down when the other lane was? Why not just take it to the end? Seems more like he's an early merger who got frustrated at "those people" and decided to "teach them a lesson" by blocking the ability of later mergers to pass traffic.
Because both lanes matching speed and merging 1:1 where the lanes merge is how zipper merging is
supposed to work. MNDOT is basically the gold standard for promotion of zipper merging: https://www.dot.state.mn.us/zippermerge/
The problem is that it rarely works as intended in practice because early mergers create a pre-existing backup in the through lane, and then the late mergers feed the backup by merging in at random points, so there's nothing even close to resembling a consistent 1:1 ratio at the merge point. So in this case, while I'm not saying it was right to block traffic, it absolutely would have helped to create a proper zipper merge for everyone that had backed up behind him, while also theoretically improving the flow
ahead of him by eliminating the intermittent slowdowns due to people cutting in.
I obviously can't rule out the possibility that it was angry early merger, but it seems more likely that he would have somehow reserved
himself a spot in the thru lane if that was the case - perhaps by straddling the lanes as I've seen trucks do sometimes. I've also seen trucks do what this guy did and speed match until the end of the lane, but it somehow seems less egregious when it's two trucks doing it - probably because (a) no one can see directly in front of the truck, and (b) trucks usually work together/in groups to maintain a consistent crawl rather than stop/go cycles, which is much more bearable for those following them.
Maybe I didn't make some details clear enough.
-I first encountered the van around 1.5 to 2 miles from the merge point.
-He was neither making an active attempt to merge early, nor actively driving forward to the merge point like he was supposed to. He would simply accelerate to the speed of traffic while the right lane was moving, then return to a complete stop whenever the right lane stopped, and only move again when the right lane started moving again. There was very little traffic in the left lane at this point either in front of or behind the van and there were no cars in the left lane ahead of the van up until the merge point well over a mile away. I did see several chances for him to merge early and he declined to take them. The point isn't whether he should merge early or zipper as much as *please just do something to get the hell out of my way*.
-This continued up until he reached said zopper merge point.
Thanks for confirming.
Quote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 09:33:45 PMQuote from: epzik8 on August 02, 2024, 09:31:46 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
That's just another annoying extreme. Zipper!
Common language equivalent: let ME go first! Me! Me!! ME!!!
Quote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 09:30:00 AMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 09:33:45 PMQuote from: epzik8 on August 02, 2024, 09:31:46 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
That's just another annoying extreme. Zipper!
Common language equivalent: let ME go first! Me! Me!! ME!!!
Ideally, no. People should use the full capacity of the roadway and take turns at the merge point.
If anything, if you don't zipper and people in the lane to be merged into refuse to allow the merge, it's them that are saying "me first."
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2024, 10:49:37 AMQuote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 09:30:00 AMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 09:33:45 PMQuote from: epzik8 on August 02, 2024, 09:31:46 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
That's just another annoying extreme. Zipper!
Common language equivalent: let ME go first! Me! Me!! ME!!!
Ideally, no. People should use the full capacity of the roadway and take turns at the merge point.
If anything, if you don't zipper and people in the lane to be merged into refuse to allow the merge, it's them that are saying "me first."
Zipper, as many ideas generated by modern engineers, is based on good intentions. One of intentions is more or less equal wait time for everyone, making things more or less fair. Of course that doesn't match with KREP, aka "everyone must give me the way", but whatever. Asking for some systematic thinking from the engineer is too much these days.
Point is, you are talking about utilizing concept aimed at fairness to your own advantage - and somehow feel in your full right to do so.
Quote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 02:14:02 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 03, 2024, 10:49:37 AMQuote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 09:30:00 AMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 09:33:45 PMQuote from: epzik8 on August 02, 2024, 09:31:46 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
That's just another annoying extreme. Zipper!
Common language equivalent: let ME go first! Me! Me!! ME!!!
Ideally, no. People should use the full capacity of the roadway and take turns at the merge point.
If anything, if you don't zipper and people in the lane to be merged into refuse to allow the merge, it's them that are saying "me first."
Zipper, as many ideas generated by modern engineers, is based on good intentions. One of intentions is more or less equal wait time for everyone, making things more or less fair. Of course that doesn't match with KREP, aka "everyone must give me the way", but whatever. Asking for some systematic thinking from the engineer is too much these days.
Point is, you are talking about utilizing concept aimed at fairness to your own advantage - and somehow feel in your full right to do so.
And you are taking from an immature elementary school concept of lining up for a water fountain and the little kids bickering over "cutting."
Quote from: Rothman on August 03, 2024, 02:22:20 PMQuote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 02:14:02 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 03, 2024, 10:49:37 AMQuote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 09:30:00 AMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 09:33:45 PMQuote from: epzik8 on August 02, 2024, 09:31:46 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
That's just another annoying extreme. Zipper!
Common language equivalent: let ME go first! Me! Me!! ME!!!
Ideally, no. People should use the full capacity of the roadway and take turns at the merge point.
If anything, if you don't zipper and people in the lane to be merged into refuse to allow the merge, it's them that are saying "me first."
Zipper, as many ideas generated by modern engineers, is based on good intentions. One of intentions is more or less equal wait time for everyone, making things more or less fair. Of course that doesn't match with KREP, aka "everyone must give me the way", but whatever. Asking for some systematic thinking from the engineer is too much these days.
Point is, you are talking about utilizing concept aimed at fairness to your own advantage - and somehow feel in your full right to do so.
And you are taking from an immature elementary school concept of lining up for a water fountain and the little kids bickering over "cutting."
It didn't take long.. So even you feel doing things under the color of a "zipper" concept, where it's not in full swing is wrong, but still doing it....
Quote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 02:26:45 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 03, 2024, 02:22:20 PMQuote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 02:14:02 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 03, 2024, 10:49:37 AMQuote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 09:30:00 AMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 09:33:45 PMQuote from: epzik8 on August 02, 2024, 09:31:46 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 02, 2024, 07:13:03 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2024, 02:00:03 AMOne common move is when someone is crossing an arterial road, but one direction of the arterial is jammed up (and it's the side the driver is entering from). The drivers in the jammed side leave a gap, and the car enters into the roadway about halfway. Eventually, the driver noses so far into the opposing (free flow) direction that someone eventually stops to let them in, even though it's not their right-of-way. This should be common courtesy, but I don't recall seeing it often in the US.
My experience in the U.S. has been the complete opposite. Yes, some drivers won't let anyone in, but eventually, absolutely.
This is why I tend to choose what is essentially the exact opposite course of action, to leave a long enough gap in front of me for multiple cars to get over.
That's just another annoying extreme. Zipper!
Common language equivalent: let ME go first! Me! Me!! ME!!!
Ideally, no. People should use the full capacity of the roadway and take turns at the merge point.
If anything, if you don't zipper and people in the lane to be merged into refuse to allow the merge, it's them that are saying "me first."
Zipper, as many ideas generated by modern engineers, is based on good intentions. One of intentions is more or less equal wait time for everyone, making things more or less fair. Of course that doesn't match with KREP, aka "everyone must give me the way", but whatever. Asking for some systematic thinking from the engineer is too much these days.
Point is, you are talking about utilizing concept aimed at fairness to your own advantage - and somehow feel in your full right to do so.
And you are taking from an immature elementary school concept of lining up for a water fountain and the little kids bickering over "cutting."
It didn't take long.. So even you feel doing things under the color of a "zipper" concept, where it's not in full swing is wrong, but still doing it....
Try reading what I said.
Quote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 02:14:02 PMyou are talking about utilizing concept aimed at fairness to your own advantage - and somehow feel in your full right to do so.
The zipper concept has been in widespread use in work zones for well over a decade now. Everyone on the road should know what it is and how it works. The fact that so many drivers still fail to use it resulting in significantly longer queue lengths in the open lane is baffling, but it doesn't mean that anyone who opts to stay in the closing lane until the merge point is at fault. Every driver has the same opportunity to use either lane. If they insist on using the lane that remains open for miles in advance of the closure, enduring longer wait times are a consequence of their own decision and no one's fault but their own.
Quote from: webny99 on August 03, 2024, 09:55:15 PMQuote from: kalvado on August 03, 2024, 02:14:02 PMyou are talking about utilizing concept aimed at fairness to your own advantage - and somehow feel in your full right to do so.
The zipper concept has been in widespread use in work zones for well over a decade now. Everyone on the road should know what it is and how it works. The fact that so many drivers still fail to use it resulting in significantly longer queue lengths in the open lane is baffling, but it doesn't mean that anyone who opts to stay in the closing lane until the merge point is at fault. Every driver has the same opportunity to use either lane. If they insist on using the lane that remains open for miles in advance of the closure, enduring longer wait times are a consequence of their own decision and no one's fault but their own.
Zipper concept is like roundabouts - usable with pretty limited scope. Unlike roundabouts , it has limited official acceptance, and does not match with existing legal framework.
But it works for certain mindsets, since it can easily be turned to one's advantage at everyone else's cost.
Quote from: kalvado on August 04, 2024, 06:44:49 AMZipper concept is like roundabouts - usable with pretty limited scope. Unlike roundabouts , it has limited official acceptance, and does not match with existing legal framework.
I certainly wouldn't call active promotion by 30+ state DOT's "limited acceptance". And I have no idea what legal framework has anything to do with it but I know it's not anything safety-related given the numerous safety benefits of the zipper merge.
Quote from: kalvado on August 04, 2024, 06:44:49 AMBut it works for certain mindsets, since it can easily be turned to one's advantage at everyone else's cost.
As already stated, it's only at cost to others if they choose it to be so. If the average driver made better, more informed choices, there would no longer be an advantage for those zippering, since the queues would be equal length.
Quote from: webny99 on August 04, 2024, 11:05:39 AMQuote from: kalvado on August 04, 2024, 06:44:49 AMZipper concept is like roundabouts - usable with pretty limited scope. Unlike roundabouts , it has limited official acceptance, and does not match with existing legal framework.
I certainly wouldn't call active promotion by 30+ state DOT's "limited acceptance". And I have no idea what legal framework has anything to do with it but I know it's not anything safety-related given the numerous safety benefits of the zipper merge.
Quote from: kalvado on August 04, 2024, 06:44:49 AMBut it works for certain mindsets, since it can easily be turned to one's advantage at everyone else's cost.
As already stated, it's only at cost to others if they choose it to be so. If the average driver made better, more informed choices, there would no longer be an advantage for those zippering, since the queues would be equal length.
So what are the safety benefits here? Same as quantifiable safety benefits of exit renumbering?
Quote from: webny99 on August 04, 2024, 11:05:39 AMAnd I have no idea what legal framework has anything to do with it but I know it's not anything safety-related given the numerous safety benefits of the zipper merge.
My best guess would be something along the lines of "it violates keep right except to pass".
Quote from: kalvado on August 04, 2024, 11:28:39 AMSo what are the safety benefits here? Same as quantifiable safety benefits of exit renumbering?
I wonder if
@webny99 meant to say efficiency benefits, but having less congestion would reduce congestion-caused crashes.
Quote from: vdeane on August 04, 2024, 04:27:03 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 04, 2024, 11:05:39 AMAnd I have no idea what legal framework has anything to do with it but I know it's not anything safety-related given the numerous safety benefits of the zipper merge.
My best guess would be something along the lines of "it violates keep right except to pass".
Which would be ironic because KRETP actually
is being adhered to when people don't zipper properly (at least for left lane closures). But more importantly, KRETP is no longer a top priority once the roadway becomes congested.
Quote from: vdeane on August 04, 2024, 04:27:03 PMQuote from: kalvado on August 04, 2024, 11:28:39 AMSo what are the safety benefits here? Same as quantifiable safety benefits of exit renumbering?
I wonder if @webny99 meant to say efficiency benefits, but having less congestion would reduce congestion-caused crashes.
I did mean safety, though the effiency benefits are numerous too. Less congestion and shorter backups contributing to fewer crashes and less hard braking is a big one, but also a lower speed differential between the lanes and less road rage stemming from early merging issues.
Quote from: webny99 on August 04, 2024, 11:05:39 AMI certainly wouldn't call active promotion by 30+ state DOT's "limited acceptance".
That's still 20 states (and several million people) who have no idea what the hell you're talking about when you say "zipper merge".
I don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
Quote from: vdeane on August 04, 2024, 04:27:03 PMMy best guess would be something along the lines of "it violates keep right except to pass".
Or that you can't enforce a zipper merge unless there's actually a state law spelling out what one is, how it works, and what the penalties are for noncompliance.
Just zipper because it's the right thing to do.
90% of the time I stick with the lane is ending so I can take advantage of passing a bunch of people who get over early. I don't particularly care if someone finds my proper use of a zipper merge to be rude.
Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2024, 01:55:31 PMJust zipper because it's the right thing to do.
Great way to get shot.
Has anyone actually ever been shot at? I've had three knives and pair of brass knuckles pulled on me at work. Those all involved people who were actively committing crimes and three had felony warrants. I'm not saying that it "never" has happened, but being shot at due to partaking in a zipper merge seems high improbable.
I've been flipped off -- for very strange reasons, mostly (e.g., just passing someone) -- but never had a gun pulled on me.
Someone should ask Lord Carhorn if he's been shot at while engaging in Flat Illinois road rage. If that guy can't piss someone off enough for that to happen, it won't for anyone on this forum.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 04, 2024, 11:05:39 AMI certainly wouldn't call active promotion by 30+ state DOT's "limited acceptance".
That's still 20 states (and several million people) who have no idea what the hell you're talking about when you say "zipper merge".
I don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
Just because they're in a state where they don't promote zipper merging doesn't mean they've never heard of it.
So you've never merged into another lane between 2 vehicles, or had someone pull in front or behind you? That's a zipper merge. Vegas has some decent traffic. I'm sure you've merged between two cars at some point.
Now, maybe you've done it a mile back from where the lane ended, but you still zippered. You just did it early.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 04, 2024, 11:05:39 AMI certainly wouldn't call active promotion by 30+ state DOT's "limited acceptance".
That's still 20 states (and several million people) who have no idea what the hell you're talking about when you say "zipper merge".
To be clear, 30 is a very rough estimate. I said 30+ because I read some reporting that put the number at 33, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's higher. Either way, the zipper merge simply *not being actively promoted by a state DOT* doesn't nullify the concept or its purpose, nor does it mean it's something drivers shouldn't be aware of. It's been used in many other countries for decades, too, so it's not unique to the states promoting it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMI don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
Serious question, how do you know if you're right to or not?
If you simply don't want to be the only one using the closing lane for miles and risk angering someone by cutting in, I totally respect that, but I also believe that only applies in free flowing traffic conditions. If there's an existing backup, there will be other drivers willing to use either lane until the merge point, and those that aren't are almost exclusively just lacking awareness rather than trying to be polite.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMOr that you can't enforce a zipper merge unless there's actually a state law spelling out what one is, how it works, and what the penalties are for noncompliance.
I don't think state lawmakers or anyone else are really "enforcing" a zipper merge (other than the guy
TheHighwayMan3561 mentioned upthread). I personally support early merging when practical if traffic is moving at or above speed but using both lanes to the merge point when there's congestion. That's what I'm going to do regardless, and it's baffling to me if others choose not to do the same, but I certainly don't want to force my approach on anyone, and won't stop them if they want to actively choose longer delays instead (as long as they don't complain about the delays they helped create).
It would actually be more helpful to me personally
not to promote the zipper merge publicly, because less awareness means less people using it which means more time savings for those that do. Yet I am promoting it because I genuinely believe its use promotes safety and efficiency and reduces congestion and road rage, and I want to help other drivers see and understand those factors so they can benefit from them as well.
I passed signs on I-75 in Michigan that said something to the effect of, "Use both lanes when traffic is backed up." I guess that means zipper? Never saw that in Michigan before.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMI don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
I generally consider zipper merging to be for idiots.
Back in 2017, we were on our way home from St. Louis when I saw this very nice sign on I-70 near Terre Haute. Naturally, a lot of idiots apparently couldn't read and insisted on getting over a mile or two in advance even in heavy traffic.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171016/b28d4d998e486ed43b288c0ee080b5ba.jpg)
Quote from: epzik8 on August 05, 2024, 08:15:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMI don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
I generally consider zipper merging to be for idiots.
You're not going to get away with that without at least explaining why. :poke:
I remember driving somewhere in rural Virginia, some Interstate. There were signs saying "right lane closed ahead". I kept going to the merge area, with a handful of other cars. Left lane was backed up for miles. Right lane was going basically the speed limit.
The lane never ended. It was wrong. Probably saved us an hour of queuing.
I have vowed ever since to never acknowledge those signs, until the actual taper.
Quote from: webny99 on August 03, 2024, 09:55:15 PMThe zipper concept has been in widespread use in work zones for well over a decade now. Everyone on the road should know what it is and how it works.
Does not follow. Most drivers get their licenses in their teens and then never get any sort of driver education or testing again for the rest of their lives.
Quote from: kkt on August 05, 2024, 11:09:22 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 03, 2024, 09:55:15 PMThe zipper concept has been in widespread use in work zones for well over a decade now. Everyone on the road should know what it is and how it works.
Does not follow. Most drivers get their licenses in their teens and then never get any sort of driver education or testing again for the rest of their lives.
So?
Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2024, 11:10:52 PMQuote from: kkt on August 05, 2024, 11:09:22 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 03, 2024, 09:55:15 PMThe zipper concept has been in widespread use in work zones for well over a decade now. Everyone on the road should know what it is and how it works.
Does not follow. Most drivers get their licenses in their teens and then never get any sort of driver education or testing again for the rest of their lives.
So?
So, they're not going to find out in any organized way about the wonders of the zipper merge.
Quote from: kkt on August 05, 2024, 11:14:29 PMQuote from: Rothman on August 05, 2024, 11:10:52 PMQuote from: kkt on August 05, 2024, 11:09:22 PMQuote from: webny99 on August 03, 2024, 09:55:15 PMThe zipper concept has been in widespread use in work zones for well over a decade now. Everyone on the road should know what it is and how it works.
Does not follow. Most drivers get their licenses in their teens and then never get any sort of driver education or testing again for the rest of their lives.
So?
So, they're not going to find out in any organized way about the wonders of the zipper merge.
Probably should train people better, then.
Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2024, 11:15:30 PMQuoteSo, they're not going to find out in any organized way about the wonders of the zipper merge.
Probably should train people better, then.
That's arguably what state DOT's are trying to do by actively campaigning for it, including on their web pages, on VMS signage, and even on physical work zone signage, as in 1995hoo's photo.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 05, 2024, 02:07:41 PMHas anyone actually ever been shot at? I've had three knives and pair of brass knuckles pulled on me at work. Those all involved people who were actively committing crimes and three had felony warrants. I'm not saying that it "never" has happened, but being shot at due to partaking in a zipper merge seems high improbable.
Not personally, but I've seen enough gunplay incidents reported in the OKC news that I feel like discretion is advised, at least in that area. I hardly ever even use the horn—too likely to trigger someone.
Quote from: webny99 on August 05, 2024, 03:43:04 PMEither way, the zipper merge simply *not being actively promoted by a state DOT* doesn't nullify the concept or its purpose, nor does it mean it's something drivers shouldn't be aware of.
I think this may be a bit of Northeastern bias in play here. The states west of the Mississippi are way bigger than you think they are—if I hopped on US-95 northbound I wouldn't leave Nevada (and thus see any DOT practice besides NDOT) for
nine hours. Now, that's a kind of extreme example since Las Vegas is at the south end of the state, but even in Oklahoma, which is quite a bit smaller, the largest metro area is at least 100 miles away from a state line in any direction; people are definitely not leaving the state on a whim. As a result, most people in Oklahoma don't leave Oklahoma on a regular enough basis to even be aware of what other DOTs are doing, much less become familiar with their work zone practices.
And in fact, the situation is not just that ODOT doesn't promote zipper merging... zipper merging is actually illegal in Oklahoma! (https://www.newson6.com/story/5e35fa882f69d76f6202cda6/tpd-warns-drivers-about-not-merging-properly-in-construction-zones) And check out the signage—that's standard workzone signage there!
Quote from: webny99 on August 05, 2024, 03:43:04 PMSerious question, how do you know if you're right to or not?
Most of the time, I've seen late mergers trapped at the cones as a solid train of traffic trundles past them with nobody letting them in. (This is, again, based on Oklahoma. I don't yet have enough experience in Nevada work zones to know what the culture is like here. I don't have high hopes, though, given that in Las Vegas, stoplights are treated as mere suggestions, as though they were advisory speed signs that happen to come in fun colors. Oh, and license plates are apparently optional.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMAnd in fact, the situation is not just that ODOT doesn't promote zipper merging... zipper merging is actually illegal in Oklahoma! (https://www.newson6.com/story/5e35fa882f69d76f6202cda6/tpd-warns-drivers-about-not-merging-properly-in-construction-zones) And check out the signage—that's standard workzone signage there!
Hmmm...7+ year old article and zero laws cited. Black-on-white signage may be enforceable, fine, but I'm not aware of any state statutes requiring merging the moment "lane ends" signs appear. In fact, as far as I know, most of the time the onus is simply on the ending lane to yield at the taper.
Regarding whether people should learn about it, consider how many people living in states with flashing yellow arrows don't understand them. I've seen multiple people who simply
will not turn while the arrow is flashing, period, regardless of there being absolutely nobody coming in the other direction and regardless of people stuck behind them honking. As kkt correctly notes:
Quote from: kkt on August 05, 2024, 11:09:22 PMDoes not follow. Most drivers get their licenses in their teens and then never get any sort of driver education or testing again for the rest of their lives.
So you get entirely too many people who operate along the lines of, "This is what I learned in 1969. Anyone who does otherwise is wrong." One problem with that is that some things that are now widespread or standard, like antilock brakes, didn't exist in 1969, so learning something back then is not helpful today.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMQuoteEither way, the zipper merge simply *not being actively promoted by a state DOT* doesn't nullify the concept or its purpose, nor does it mean it's something drivers shouldn't be aware of.
I think this may be a bit of Northeastern bias in play here. The states west of the Mississippi are way bigger than you think they are—if I hopped on US-95 northbound I wouldn't leave Nevada (and thus see any DOT practice besides NDOT) for nine hours. Now, that's a kind of extreme example since Las Vegas is at the south end of the state, but even in Oklahoma, which is quite a bit smaller, the largest metro area is at least 100 miles away from a state line in any direction; people are definitely not leaving the state on a whim. As a result, most people in Oklahoma don't leave Oklahoma on a regular enough basis to even be aware of what other DOTs are doing, much less become familiar with their work zone practices.
I think arguably the bigger factor is that said large states are simply a lot less populous, and the population they do have is a lot more spread out, so work zones are less likely to create major backup issues to begin with. Early merging works fine until it doesn't - and the time period when it doesn't could be 12+ hours a day on a major interstate east of the Mississippi, while it's likely to be a more intermittent issue in a state like Oklahoma, especially outside of OKC/Tulsa.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMQuoteSerious question, how do you know if you're right to or not?
Most of the time, I've seen late mergers trapped at the cones as a solid train of traffic trundles past them with nobody letting them in. (This is, again, based on Oklahoma.
This definitely seems like a cultural thing - and I wouldn't be shocked if it is related to less willingness to engage with other drivers due to higher rates of gun ownership and concealed carry.
In the Bos-Wash corridor in particular drivers are too aggressive to let that happen - in heavy traffic taking turns at the merge is the expectation and if it's unclear, whoever is pushier gets in first. But no one would ever come to a complete stop because of being unable to merge - they'd never get anywhere if they did.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMI don't yet have enough experience in Nevada work zones to know what the culture is like here. I don't have high hopes, though, given that in Las Vegas, stoplights are treated as mere suggestions, as though they were advisory speed signs that happen to come in fun colors. Oh, and license plates are apparently optional.)
Based on the other behaviors you describe, it seems more likely that late mergers would either take turns or push their way in rather than get stuck at the merge point. To a certain extent, the bigger the city the more aggressive the drivers tend to be.
Wherever people do not turn when the opposing lane is clear with a flashing yellow arrow, that is a place where responsibilities on the local citizenry should be reduced, for they have proven themselves to be buffoons.
Quote from: Rothman on August 06, 2024, 08:22:17 AMWherever people do not turn when the opposing lane is clear with a flashing yellow arrow, that is a place where responsibilities on the local citizenry should be reduced, for they have proven themselves to be buffoons.
I would certainly just pull out (if possible) and go around said person and make my turn. If the traffic is too heavy to allow that, well, at least the fact of the flashing yellow arrow means the intersection will have a green arrow soon enough.
Quote from: webny99 on August 05, 2024, 09:04:31 PMQuote from: epzik8 on August 05, 2024, 08:15:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMI don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
I generally consider zipper merging to be for idiots.
You're not going to get away with that without at least explaining why. :poke:
In some cases, people don't pay attention to signage and only notice the end of the lane at the moment it ends.
^^^^
For what it's worth, Maryland is one state that sometimes posts signs encouraging "alternate merging" (https://maps.app.goo.gl/K5PTD1ukbaCaL7n79) (although, because Maryland drivers are what they are, when I've driven through that particular spot I've seen people straddle the line in a "thou shalt not pass" posture, I've seen people floor it to try to race ahead to pass as many people as possible, I've seen people trying to fight people in the other lane at the actual merge point....).
Quote from: epzik8 on August 05, 2024, 08:15:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMI don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
I generally consider zipper merging to be for idiots.
Zipper merging is much better than having a long line of slow traffic next to one where people are going near full speed to the merge point. There is a reason DOTs promote zipper merging. It creates a more safe traffic situation.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on August 06, 2024, 09:09:13 AMQuote from: epzik8 on August 05, 2024, 08:15:28 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 05, 2024, 01:52:31 PMI don't zipper because I don't trust anyone else to do so, and usually I'm right not to.
I generally consider zipper merging to be for idiots.
Zipper merging is much better than having a long line of slow traffic next to one where people are going near full speed to the merge point. There is a reason DOTs promote zipper merging. It creates a more safe traffic situation.
Got it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 06, 2024, 08:35:58 AMQuote from: Rothman on August 06, 2024, 08:22:17 AMWherever people do not turn when the opposing lane is clear with a flashing yellow arrow, that is a place where responsibilities on the local citizenry should be reduced, for they have proven themselves to be buffoons.
I would certainly just pull out (if possible) and go around said person and make my turn. If the traffic is too heavy to allow that, well, at least the fact of the flashing yellow arrow means the intersection will have a green arrow soon enough.
Not here in Oakland County MI, where all FYA signals have leading lefts. Many a time have I channeled CrashIt and leaned on the horn because of being stuck behind some dolt not understanding than one may turn on said FYA when no oncoming traffic. I'm usually stopped too close to the dolt to be able to pull around; I need to start keeping some space there.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 06, 2024, 10:24:56 AMQuote from: 1995hoo on August 06, 2024, 08:35:58 AMQuote from: Rothman on August 06, 2024, 08:22:17 AMWherever people do not turn when the opposing lane is clear with a flashing yellow arrow, that is a place where responsibilities on the local citizenry should be reduced, for they have proven themselves to be buffoons.
I would certainly just pull out (if possible) and go around said person and make my turn. If the traffic is too heavy to allow that, well, at least the fact of the flashing yellow arrow means the intersection will have a green arrow soon enough.
Not here in Oakland County MI, where all FYA signals have leading lefts. Many a time have I channeled CrashIt and leaned on the horn because of being stuck behind some dolt not understanding than one may turn on said FYA when no oncoming traffic. I'm usually stopped too close to the dolt to be able to pull around; I need to start keeping some space there.
I may have been unclear about, or you may have misunderstood, what I meant by "have a green arrow soon enough." I didn't mean the green arrow would necessarily come on at the end of the cycle. Certainly there are places where that will often happen—the Charlottesville area,* in particular—but it's not common where I live. All I meant is that while you might have to wait through a light cycle before the green arrow comes on, there will be a green arrow. It could be a seemingly long wait depending on the particular light, but then I also think the light almost always seems longer than it really is when you're waiting for it to turn green.
BTW, of course I also recognize that my comment above saying I would go around the person if possible is doing something that's not necessarily safe or legal. A cop would probably say you risk causing a crash if you pull in front of the person right as he wakes up and decides to go. That's true. If there were a cop around, I probably wouldn't try to go around the idiot, but I'd certainly make liberal use of the horn.
*In Charlottesville it's quite common for one direction to get a green left-turn arrow and a green light for traffic going straight at the same time while the other side has full red. Then the green arrow will change to flashing yellow and the traffic going the other way will get a flashing yellow for left turns and a green for traffic going straight. Then the first direction will get a full red and the second direction will get the green arrow at the end of the cycle. (I'll admit I'm not 100% sure about whether there is ordinarily a flashing yellow arrow when the other direction has both the green arrow and the green for traffic going straight. Charlottesville implemented the flashing yellow arrows within about the past five years and I've only made one trip down there in the past few years.) I believe mtantillo of this forum told me that particular way of operating the light cycle is called "lead-lag," regardless of whether you use the doghouse signals that used to be the norm in Virginia or whether you use the flashing yellow arrow.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2024, 03:32:55 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMAnd in fact, the situation is not just that ODOT doesn't promote zipper merging... zipper merging is actually illegal in Oklahoma! (https://www.newson6.com/story/5e35fa882f69d76f6202cda6/tpd-warns-drivers-about-not-merging-properly-in-construction-zones) And check out the signage—that's standard workzone signage there!
Hmmm...7+ year old article and zero laws cited. Black-on-white signage may be enforceable, fine, but I'm not aware of any state statutes requiring merging the moment "lane ends" signs appear. In fact, as far as I know, most of the time the onus is simply on the ending lane to yield at the taper.
They do have a "state law - merge now" sign pictured, which is dumb; if you want to close the lane there, then close the lane there, don't have it open but not allow anyone to use it! That said, the cop strikes me as an early merger who is upset at "those people" and found himself in a position of power. He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about with respect to what's more efficient.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMMost of the time, I've seen late mergers trapped at the cones as a solid train of traffic trundles past them with nobody letting them in. (This is, again, based on Oklahoma. I don't yet have enough experience in Nevada work zones to know what the culture is like here. I don't have high hopes, though, given that in Las Vegas, stoplights are treated as mere suggestions, as though they were advisory speed signs that happen to come in fun colors. Oh, and license plates are apparently optional.)
As
@webny99 mentioned, around here, people wouldn't wait to be let it - they'd
force their way in whether the traffic in the continuing lane likes it or not, and the only way to stop them would be for everyone to tailgate each other to physically prevent them from having the space to do so. But if people don't (and often even if they do), they'll take what little space exists, begin edging into it, and your choice will be "allow them to get in front or get in a crash".
Quote from: webny99 on August 06, 2024, 08:20:14 AMQuote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMQuoteEither way, the zipper merge simply *not being actively promoted by a state DOT* doesn't nullify the concept or its purpose, nor does it mean it's something drivers shouldn't be aware of.
I think this may be a bit of Northeastern bias in play here. The states west of the Mississippi are way bigger than you think they are—if I hopped on US-95 northbound I wouldn't leave Nevada (and thus see any DOT practice besides NDOT) for nine hours. Now, that's a kind of extreme example since Las Vegas is at the south end of the state, but even in Oklahoma, which is quite a bit smaller, the largest metro area is at least 100 miles away from a state line in any direction; people are definitely not leaving the state on a whim. As a result, most people in Oklahoma don't leave Oklahoma on a regular enough basis to even be aware of what other DOTs are doing, much less become familiar with their work zone practices.
I think arguably the bigger factor is that said large states are simply a lot less populous, and the population they do have is a lot more spread out, so work zones are less likely to create major backup issues to begin with. Early merging works fine until it doesn't - and the time period when it doesn't could be 12+ hours a day on a major interstate east of the Mississippi, while it's likely to be a more intermittent issue in a state like Oklahoma, especially outside of OKC/Tulsa.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMQuoteSerious question, how do you know if you're right to or not?
Most of the time, I've seen late mergers trapped at the cones as a solid train of traffic trundles past them with nobody letting them in. (This is, again, based on Oklahoma.
This definitely seems like a cultural thing - and I wouldn't be shocked if it is related to less willingness to engage with other drivers due to higher rates of gun ownership and concealed carry.
In the Bos-Wash corridor in particular drivers are too aggressive to let that happen - in heavy traffic taking turns at the merge is the expectation and if it's unclear, whoever is pushier gets in first. But no one would ever come to a complete stop because of being unable to merge - they'd never get anywhere if they did.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 06, 2024, 01:41:09 AMI don't yet have enough experience in Nevada work zones to know what the culture is like here. I don't have high hopes, though, given that in Las Vegas, stoplights are treated as mere suggestions, as though they were advisory speed signs that happen to come in fun colors. Oh, and license plates are apparently optional.)
Based on the other behaviors you describe, it seems more likely that late mergers would either take turns or push their way in rather than get stuck at the merge point. To a certain extent, the bigger the city the more aggressive the drivers tend to be.
I think how often people leave the state is also a cultural thing. Along the East Coast, leaving the state is routine even for people who would have to drive more than half an hour to do so. But even other states east of the Mississippi, there are people who don't regularly travel out of state, even if it wouldn't take that long to do so. Just look at every debate in the Michigan threads over E-ZPass interoperability, and the people who say "Michigan doesn't have toll roads, why should we be compatible with E-ZPass", as if traveling out of state is a once in a lifetime adventure. Heck, growing up, I can count on my hands the number of times I was out of state (excluding crossing over to Canada during trips to the 1000 Islands where we stayed on the US side and counting trips to the 1000 Islands where we stayed in Canada as a single time out of state).
Quote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2024, 03:32:55 AMHmmm...7+ year old article and zero laws cited.
Will a scholarly journal article do for a cite? (https://intrans.iastate.edu/research/completed/evaluation-of-early-merge-static-work-zone-signing-in-oklahoma/)
Quote from: webny99 on August 06, 2024, 08:20:14 AMI think arguably the bigger factor is that said large states are simply a lot less populous, and the population they do have is a lot more spread out, so work zones are less likely to create major backup issues to begin with. Early merging works fine until it doesn't - and the time period when it doesn't could be 12+ hours a day on a major interstate east of the Mississippi, while it's likely to be a more intermittent issue in a state like Oklahoma, especially outside of OKC/Tulsa.
You're missing my point.
Someone from Central Oklahoma who doesn't travel a lot is unlikely to have much experience driving in other states, because it takes a few hours of driving to reach another state. Since Oklahoma doesn't run zipper merges (they're illegal), an Oklahoma driver is not going to spontaneously try a zipper merge
because they probably do not know such a thing exists.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 08, 2024, 06:27:52 AMQuote from: jakeroot on August 06, 2024, 03:32:55 AMHmmm...7+ year old article and zero laws cited.
Will a scholarly journal article do for a cite? (https://intrans.iastate.edu/research/completed/evaluation-of-early-merge-static-work-zone-signing-in-oklahoma/)
The most interesting part for me was when they say ** more states (even back in 2007) were already adopted the zipper merge (called then, "late merge"):
QuoteWhile few states appear to be utilizing the early merge strategy, it was interesting to note that the late merge strategy is a much more commonly used strategy that is being experimented by the states. Seven states (18 percent of those surveyed) indicated that they have made use of the late merge or the dynamic late merge strategy, at least at specific locations. One of the main benefits cited by engineers is that the late merge strategy is effective in reducing queue lengths, so the likelihood of a queue extending beyond the advance warning area is reduced.
Even back then, while it didn't have a name yet, the "late merge" strategy was becoming more common. Still seems weird to call merging where the lane ends a "late merge"...seems there may be some bias in the research.
There are also rather frequent grammatical errors. Right in the abstract...how does that slip by? Engineers aren't normally the best at spelling or grammar, but then if engineers are the only ones doing the research...that may not be advisable since human behavior plays a big part in how successful these various types of merges are going to be. Personally, zippering seems to be the only one that will ever work with humans because taking turns is such a basic human "thing", even if we joke that "ioWA dRiveRS nEVeR taKE tuRnS" or whatever.
**edited for clarity.