First and foremost, I apologize if there's a thread for this already, I searched various terms (12/8/8, 12-8-8, 1288, 8/12, 12/8) and no thread specific to 8/12 arrangements showed up.
Anyways, this thread is to discuss said signals and/or share finds (such as on google street view) or photos of 12-8-8 or other 8/12 (think 8-8-12, 12-8-8-12-12, 12-8-12, 8-12-12-12-12 doghouses, etc) signals.
I have some street view finds in North Carolina (where 12-8-8s are extremely rare) that I'll be able to share when I return home.
12-8-8 used to be a very common arrangement for side mounted signals in Illinois. There are still a few left.
Cass & 55th St, Westmont (https://goo.gl/maps/35ApXpoYbrT2), removed 2012.
Washington Blvd & Butterfield Rd, Hillside (https://goo.gl/maps/trg9z5owuNw). Check out the strange setup for the signals while you're at it.
Peabody, MA used to known for 12-12-8 installations for pedestrian-activated signals (either flashing yellow/red mode or steady green):
MA 114 (Gardner St.) & Abington Ave. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5358033,-70.922262,3a,75y,40.85h,72.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY9Kui2zCkPHsgySIWFBHBg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Tremont St. & Northend St. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5300356,-70.9231011,3a,75y,214.18h,70.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7JveAZgngy8CllNCXBIsWQ!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
Central St. (post-mounted signalhead) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5331688,-70.9278217,3a,75y,2.2h,76.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snWGleZWEhzS7KxK9e9sfEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
In Marblehead, MA; this signal arrangement (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4964377,-70.8625248,3a,75y,185.42h,79.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBpvrgPj27T1B4WyAHblG9A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) along Pleasant St. (at the intersection of Maverick St. & Bubier Rd.) features 12-12-8-8 and 12-8-8-8 signalheads.
Not 100% sure the reasoning for this set-up (which was erected years after I moved away). Under normal conditions, the signal simply functions as a flashing yellow/red pedestrian-activated signal. However, since the fire station is within close proximity; the extra signalheads (including green lenses located on the bottom) may light up when fire trucks are heading out.
Ironically, the signals at the actual fire station (Ocean Ave. & where MA 114 & 129 meet) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4957851,-70.8632979,3a,75y,214.16h,73.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sijzRxhqp_AAzNh97LsLUFQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) are basic 3-12 signalheads.
Quote from: PHLBOS on October 03, 2017, 12:34:38 PM
Peabody, MA used to known for 12-12-8 installations for pedestrian-activated signals (either flashing yellow/red mode or steady green):
MA 114 (Gardner St.) & Abington Ave. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5358033,-70.922262,3a,75y,40.85h,72.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY9Kui2zCkPHsgySIWFBHBg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Tremont St. & Northend St. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5300356,-70.9231011,3a,75y,214.18h,70.42t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7JveAZgngy8CllNCXBIsWQ!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
Central St. (post-mounted signalhead) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5331688,-70.9278217,3a,75y,2.2h,76.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snWGleZWEhzS7KxK9e9sfEg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
On Route 28 just outside of Reading Center, there are still 12-12-8 emergency signals for the fire station.
I'm home now, so here's a few GSV shots of 12-8-8s in Charlotte. I was really, really, surprised to find them, I had no clue North Carolina had any 12-8-8s.
https://goo.gl/iYPFHo
https://goo.gl/Gv1f4D
https://goo.gl/k7hui3
https://goo.gl/rDcFU6
There are lots more in Charlotte, and there's a couple 12-8-8s in downtown Salisbury too.
Baltimore used to have many 8-8-12 signals for left turns, I believe a few still exist today.
Hampton, VA used to have 12-8-12 signals all over the city as late as the early 2000's but very few, if any, exist today.
Then there's this, just outside Richmond city limits in Henrico County. 12-12-8... and still there
Westwood Ave
https://goo.gl/maps/Fv62AWECddT2
Is there such a thing as a 20-12-12 signal?
Sounds like over the last 15 years, NCDOT has eliminated all of their 12-12-8-8 double red lights???
Quote from: thenetwork on October 04, 2017, 09:53:30 AM
Sounds like over the last 15 years, NCDOT has eliminated all of their 12-12-8-8 double red lights???
Those were a thing In NC? Huh, that's pretty neat. (I hope this doesn't come off as sarcasm, I'm genuinely interested here) Do you know if there's any photos of them I could see?
Extremely common sight in British Columbia are near-side 8-8-8 left turn signals. 8-inch (200 mm) heads are the standard size, depending on the housing location. Overhead signals are always 12-12-12, but secondary (mast) signals are usually 12/8-8-8, or if there's a bi-modal signal on the bottom, 12/8-8-8-12. Secondary signals with all 12-inch heads are uncommon, and generally not installed anymore.
(https://i.imgur.com/FLuBRO9.png)
The only one I have a photo of, in Keokuk, IA:
(https://i.imgur.com/16rFKR8.jpg)
They seem to use 12-12-12s for overhead lights and 12-8-8s for the secondary signals.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/DACySh6a3TQiT0powHmLb1TSuPHy7MQzgf0cinvuearjxtyJpUp86o_BJmhYbR2_ZvMyYQPMEPJuCZ9FeWvPMoCvdVXWbqrCvZqVffeQrXLTas0S9aeBEMot-wh7QfhP0mllPycvbBBQHT5LYFCRiYovi6h8_zgNuwyZE9LieJDr5lbUTSdoTwbaQHk9ouL8KMTUKcCfPuky96XjwNZ1C0UeDT_W_MaHYlQ9seXszDLX3rLWt7NcG24m9Bxkwq29LzTgnygbQvpPbwyyc0GH1-UM0nYgcZsrDGfgo6fu8mfeKqxsxWCF5u0JYw0VLp2PIoHzA1HzBwZ2squoaRZhunCDMuIuFKRnBN7lGdaAgEuD8lfSGWp_zMg3TA6AjIHC_7zYF6MTyYCA1NQfXFu1aPOrdXrGRoDNfRBFE1eyz3xDYNmSEauzVMShg2XnB3PaLEwmAqv62-HWLJ3Q5IfFR-rx7Wej-qIilCcfdHwvrKPNiX7aW14h0Zfps_8-pIchDv0qGHIiKX-cuzrJpxFzGop8juP9-q5m69pHf-rHrKc2_xbesaWNrLdlkSXGuDC6G1tcgOc54m6fgt__wBJ6GqYwDT8OCC9C2ERIPa_7mw=w523-h929-no)
(https://image.prntscr.com/image/In2CgfC7Q1qS-gPIDGuSCQ.png)
I thought I should share some images of 12-8-8s I took on my vacation to Victoria, BC. I'm probably one of the three people in the world who like the yellow backplates.
New Jersey has quite the selection of 8/12" combo signals, including ones mounted horizontally. Here's a horizontal 8-8-12-8 PPLT signal at the intersection of Warren and Perry Streets in Trenton.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8518/8542844065_b61309927c_z.jpg)
Quote from: index on October 04, 2017, 10:10:50 PM
I thought I should share some images of 12-8-8s I took on my vacation to Victoria, BC. I'm probably one of the three people in the world who like the yellow backplates.
These are what most signals in my area look like. I guess I'm one of the three people who like yellow backplates :thumbsup:
Quote from: 7/8 on October 04, 2017, 10:45:18 PM
Quote from: index on October 04, 2017, 10:10:50 PM
I thought I should share some images of 12-8-8s I took on my vacation to Victoria, BC. I'm probably one of the three people in the world who like the yellow backplates.
These are what most signals in my area look like. I guess I'm one of the three people who like yellow backplates :thumbsup:
Count me in as well. The yellow backplates look nice.
FWIW, the yellow backplates are the reason that the US uses yellow retroreflective strips around black backplates: http://goo.gl/OtpDik (the yellow strip around the edges of yellow backplates was due to the color of the existing backplates in Victoria at the time).
Quote from: index on October 04, 2017, 10:24:11 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on October 04, 2017, 09:53:30 AM
Sounds like over the last 15 years, NCDOT has eliminated all of their 12-12-8-8 double red lights???
Those were a thing In NC? Huh, that's pretty neat. (I hope this doesn't come off as sarcasm, I'm genuinely interested here) Do you know if there's any photos of them I could see?
Last time I remember seeing them was around 1996 along US-74 east of Charlotte, and in 2000 in a few scattered places, but I remember a slew of them in downtown Asheville.
To clarify, these are not the "T" lights were the red balls were side-by-side -- these were on a vertical strip (Red 12 / Red 12 / Yellow 8 / Green or Green Arrow 8)
There are a few 12-8-8 signals in the Tennessee Valley, most notably in Athens, AL. Redstone Arsenal has some 12-12-8 signals in use at Gate 9, and I've seen an 8-12-12 signal in use on Long Island, NY.
(https://i.imgur.com/CbTgb7S.png)
Here's an advertisement for 12-8-8s, I assume when they were first introduced. I assume the purpose was to draw more attention to the red light with a signal that looks different (nobody had seen them before) and a larger red section.
This is all a guess. It could either be right, or I could be completely and totally wrong.
If that was the original purpose of them, I'm starting to wonder, what are other arrangements for? 8-8-12s, 8-12-12s, etc..
Quote from: index on October 05, 2017, 02:44:22 AM
If that was the original purpose of them, I'm starting to wonder, what are other arrangements for? 8-8-12s, 8-12-12s, etc..
In some cases like this, arrows: https://goo.gl/maps/Lo1Hpog7Dhr
Of course, this also begs the question...since a right turn is the only legal movement here, and No Turns on Red are permitted (these conditions existed since the intersection was built about 15 years ago), why didn't they just use red, yellow and green arrows for each signal, rather than a red and yellow ball with a green arrow?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 05, 2017, 08:21:26 AM
In some cases like this, arrows: https://goo.gl/maps/Lo1Hpog7Dhr
Of course, this also begs the question...since a right turn is the only legal movement here, and No Turns on Red are permitted (these conditions existed since the intersection was built about 15 years ago), why didn't they just use red, yellow and green arrows for each signal, rather than a red and yellow ball with a green arrow?
Perhaps to emphasize that a right turn is the only legal movement here.
12-8-8 used to be very common in the Cleveland, OH area. You can probably find some if you poke around on Google Maps, although most have been replaced in the last decade or so.
There are still a handful of 12-8-8 setups in West Virginia:
Downtown Marlinton has two intersections with pretimed signals from the 1970s, including some unusual side-mount heads: https://goo.gl/maps/HLotp1jsFg62 and https://goo.gl/maps/ZkokRkPvHp62
Morgantown, WV has a pretimed installation with an unusual mounting as well: https://goo.gl/maps/iViWJzTMtjG2
Quote from: roadman on October 05, 2017, 11:33:40 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 05, 2017, 08:21:26 AM
In some cases like this, arrows: https://goo.gl/maps/Lo1Hpog7Dhr
Of course, this also begs the question...since a right turn is the only legal movement here, and No Turns on Red are permitted (these conditions existed since the intersection was built about 15 years ago), why didn't they just use red, yellow and green arrows for each signal, rather than a red and yellow ball with a green arrow?
Perhaps to emphasize that a right turn is the only legal movement here.
If you approached an intersection, and all you saw were red arrows pointing in the same direction, I think it's safe to assume that the only legal maneuver would be the movement indicated by the arrows.
There aren't many examples of signalized right-turn-only movements (that aren't right turn slip lanes) in Seattle, but at least one uses all-arrow displays, plus a right-only pavement marking: https://goo.gl/U1qHEv
Quote from: jakeroot on October 05, 2017, 03:54:59 PM
If you approached an intersection, and all you saw were red arrows pointing in the same direction, I think it's safe to assume that the only legal maneuver would be the movement indicated by the arrows.
Fair point. Unless the 12 inch green arrow replaced an 8 inch green ball as a "let's fix this problem quick and easy" solution.
Quote from: roadman on October 05, 2017, 04:23:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 05, 2017, 03:54:59 PM
If you approached an intersection, and all you saw were red arrows pointing in the same direction, I think it's safe to assume that the only legal maneuver would be the movement indicated by the arrows.
Fair point. Unless the 12 inch green arrow replaced an 8 inch green ball as a "let's fix this problem quick and easy" solution.
You would have to use a green ball if the right turn had to yield to pedestrians. In that situation, however, I'd prefer to use FYAs, instead of plastering the intersection with R3-5R signs (although one wouldn't hurt).
Quote from: Bitmapped on October 05, 2017, 03:11:05 PM
12-8-8 used to be very common in the Cleveland, OH area. You can probably find some if you poke around on Google Maps, although most have been replaced in the last decade or so.
Still quite a few in Akron and Columbus as of last year!
There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.
You can see it here in 2009 (unfortunately, it was removed sometime between 2009 and 2012):
https://goo.gl/maps/H8A1atamJso (https://goo.gl/maps/H8A1atamJso)
Quote from: 23skidoo on October 15, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.
Possibly a double-red-ball signal? Guess we'll never know.
Last year when I was in Portland, OR, there were some brand new 12-8-8s being installed at the east end of Tillamook Crossing, for bus/car intersections in the light rail. There are actually a lot of 12-8-8s on the city and metro maintained roadways.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 15, 2017, 09:50:29 AM
Quote from: 23skidoo on October 15, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.
Possibly a double-red-ball signal? Guess we'll never know.
Zooming in on the street view, it looks like the 8" heads are R-Y-G. I obviously can't confirm for sure, but it appears as if there used to be dual left-turn lanes onto Brown Street with the right one being a left/straight/right option lane. Instead of leaving the 12" head off until it got taken down, the city replaced the green arrow lens with a ball lens and left the 8" head dark.
Quote from: Ian on October 15, 2017, 06:46:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 15, 2017, 09:50:29 AM
Quote from: 23skidoo on October 15, 2017, 09:43:57 AM
There used to be a setup with a pair of 8-8-12 signals and an 8-8-8-12 signal (!) in Birmingham, Michigan. This is an unusual kind of signal for Michigan. I have no idea what the order of the 8-8-8-12 was, since (as you can see) the 12 is a solid green light and not a right turn signal.
Possibly a double-red-ball signal? Guess we'll never know.
Zooming in on the street view, it looks like the 8" heads are R-Y-G. I obviously can't confirm for sure, but it appears as if there used to be dual left-turn lanes onto Brown Street with the right one being a left/straight/right option lane. Instead of leaving the 12" head off until it got taken down, the city replaced the green arrow lens with a ball lens and left the 8" head dark.
This appears to be the case. I checked Historic Aerials, and there was indeed a double left onto Brown: https://goo.gl/cV76YU (definitely explains the 12-inch setup on the right).
Maryland often installs a second doghouse signal at intersections (on the opposing pole) with 8 inch red/yellow/green balls and 12 inch green & yellow arrows.
https://goo.gl/maps/RyvF4JCSQTB2
I remember as a kid in Fayetteville, NC, there were quite a lot of 8/12 combinations throughout the city that started to be replaced in the late 1990s, I believe the majority were gone by the early-mid 2000s.
I distinctly remember 8-8-12s (green arrows) at an exit from the Cross Creek Mall at Morganton Road in Fayetteville that were replaced sometime between 1996 and 1999.
Another I remember was an 8-8-8-12 left turn signal (two red lights) at the intersection of Yadkin Road and Santa Fe Drive that was there until probably around 2001.
The last one I clearly remember in Fayetteville was at Bragg Blvd & Pearl Street, it's gone now.
In Ohio, 12-8-8s are still standing in downtown Columbus and in the older neighborhoods surrounding downtown. I think these are gradually getting replaced with all 12s or all 8s.
In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them
Quote from: PColumbus73 on October 17, 2017, 08:54:54 PM
In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them
Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on October 17, 2017, 08:54:54 PM
In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them
Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.
I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 17, 2017, 10:47:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on October 17, 2017, 08:54:54 PM
In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them
Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.
I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 10:51:01 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 17, 2017, 10:47:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on October 17, 2017, 08:54:54 PM
In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them
Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.
I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.
Instead of that mess, why not PV signals? I've seen them used to limit far-away visibility. Preferably 3M, because any other programmable visibility signal is vastly inferior. (I'm looking at you, louvers and McCain signals.)
Quote from: index on October 19, 2017, 10:16:30 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 10:51:01 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 17, 2017, 10:47:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on October 17, 2017, 08:54:54 PM
In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them
Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.
I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.
Instead of that mess, why not PV signals? I've seen them used to limit far-away visibility. Preferably 3M, because any other programmable visibility signal is vastly inferior. (I'm looking at you, louvers and McCain signals.)
Because PV signals are very expensive.
SM-G900V
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 19, 2017, 12:41:30 PM
Quote from: index on October 19, 2017, 10:16:30 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 10:51:01 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on October 17, 2017, 10:47:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 17, 2017, 09:29:45 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on October 17, 2017, 08:54:54 PM
In South Carolina, there WAS a 12-12-8 at an intersection in Garden City Beach, SC that was replaced very recently. The old signals can be seen on GSV see here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.578959,-79.0221634,3a,23.4y,226.7h,94.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6eveZswx8P7jMsDjU9n77Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
PS, on the GSV link, pan around and see two more just like them
Very cool! Usually, 12-12-8 layouts (at least in my area) are reserved for fire station signals (red-yellow-flashing yellow) but I've never seen one used for an ordinary signal. I don't see why the yellow needed to be 12 inches. Red and green are arguably the most important.
I think it was to limit visibility of the green due to the nearby intersection. There's the same thing in the other direction:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.57923,-79.0217913,3a,18.2y,78.79h,92.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssR3OZxwM07j2Fu1EHuOhsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I see. Still seems like an odd choice. If you're going to use small signals to reduce far-away visibility, why not use all 8-inch signals? 8-inch reds are still allowed, so long as the signal is 100(?) feet from the stop line, or less.
Instead of that mess, why not PV signals? I've seen them used to limit far-away visibility. Preferably 3M, because any other programmable visibility signal is vastly inferior. (I'm looking at you, louvers and McCain signals.)
Because PV signals are very expensive.
But they're not outrageously expensive compared to the cost of signalisation, and I'm not 100% that this (no disrespect intended) redneck solution was the way to go. There's a lot of 8-inch signals in BC, and (at least) I have no problem seeing them from several blocks away (terrain or buildings usually prevent me from seeing farther).
Quote from: jakeroot on October 15, 2017, 10:04:27 PM
This appears to be the case. I checked Historic Aerials, and there was indeed a double left onto Brown: https://goo.gl/cV76YU (definitely explains the 12-inch setup on the right).
Good detective work. That seems consistent with my childhood memories of the intersection. I thought something was weird about it, but I couldn't remember what.
Quote from: 23skidoo on October 25, 2017, 03:49:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 15, 2017, 10:04:27 PM
This appears to be the case. I checked Historic Aerials, and there was indeed a double left onto Brown: https://goo.gl/cV76YU (definitely explains the 12-inch setup on the right).
Good detective work. That seems consistent with my childhood memories of the intersection. I thought something was weird about it, but I couldn't remember what.
Wouldn't have even bothered checking if not for
Ian's suggestion, so he should get some credit too :biggrin:
There are a handful of 12-8-8s in the Richmond area. I know of a couple in Hopewell, and a couple more in Richmond itself.
The old standard in the LA area during the 70's and 80's was to have a n 8-8-8 signal on a pole mounted at the far side left and an 8-8-8 mounted on the far side right. For wider streets, a 12-12-12 was also hung on a mast arm, usually from the right hand pole (and often times a street light is also attached). To the extent that there were any provisions in the signal for left or right turns, these were always done with 12 inch lenses. The left hand pole and the mast arm would generally have a signal that would contain the left turn indication.
Protected only left: Mast arm 12 ball-12 ball-12 arrow; pole mounted 8-8-12 arrow (Sign indicating left on arrow only). [These have nearly all since been replaced with 12-12-12 with arrows on all indications, for both the mast arm and the left pole mount.]
Protected/permitted for split-phase or lagging signal: Mast arm 12-12-12-12 green arrow; pole mounted 8-8-8-12 green arrow. [Can't find any in CA at the moment, here is one in Takoma Park, MD:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9995972,-76.9957576,3a,75y,81.19h,99.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ-3jrr-9i2i3Czuz3pZ7Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
[EDITED TO ADD: Here's one near Dodger Stadium:]
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0796904,-118.2359487,3a,75y,150.91h,85.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7cralnvlJS_9b4yKp0RYRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
[EDITED TO ADD: In the Sacramento area, it was very common to have an 8-8-12 signal on the left pole where there was split phasing as opposed to an 8-8-8-12 signal.] Most of those have now been upgraded to 12-12-12, but what is interesting is that they use a 3 aspect signal in combination with a 4 aspect signal on the mast arm.
Check out this GSV from 2009. 8-8-12 protected left turns on the median of Watt. 8-8-12 protected left turn (split-phase type) from Hurley to Watt. And on the mast arm on Hurley, you see a 12-8-8-12. In the most recent GSV from 2016, every aspect is 12 inch and they added pedestrian signals on every approach, not just the southern crosswalk of Hurley.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5886176,-121.3830788,3a,75y,74h,86.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saIIEJkVYl30LT-MUN3QwWg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Proteced/permitted for other signal types: Mast arm 12-12-12-12-12 (doghouse); pole mounted 8-8-8-12-12
Corresponding right turn- the LA area is very good about having a right turn signal that corresponds to a left if U-turn is prohibited on the left turning side and there is at least one lane that is right turn only. These generally featured 8-8-8-12-12 signals. Here is a shot of a near-side suppelment at Beverly/Fairfax:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0761929,-118.361208,3a,75y,283.27h,85.1t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seVkQacjdsP6uy8jV3xWyng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Culver City and Inglewood were both very fond of using 12-8-8's to allow for a greater emphasis on red.
Nowadays, newer signal installations in the LA area are putting in 12 inch indications as a matter of course, so there are fewer 8/12s out there.
EDITED TO ADD:
When 8-8-8 was more common, you would see plenty of 8/12 combination signals, all over the country.
2 aspect signals:
12-8, occasionally you see metering singals with a larger red. Some areas also employ other special 2 aspect signals and will emphasize one of the signals with a 12.
Check out this red flashing beacon at an all-way stop in Culver City, CA:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9952956,-118.3903225,3a,75y,240.81h,90.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKYWaAH4ssosUBsZJxyBz0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
3-aspect signals
12R-8Y-8G to emphasize red.
12R-12Y-8FY usually at firehouse signals to de-emphasize the near-constant flashing yellow.
8R-8Y-12G emphasizes green. This is almost always used if green has an arrow, combined with a red ball and a yellow ball. As mentioned above, you used to see this a lot for a protected only green arrow. It is also used if there is a turning restriction (L.A. will put a straight green arrow on the right hand side if there is a permanent right turn prohibition and a straight green arrow on the left and mast arm if there is a permanent left turn prohibition.) I only know of one instance (now removed) of an 8R-8Y-12G with a green ball, and that was at an intersection that used to have a right turn restriction (due to the angle of the street) that was later removed when a "porkchop" was added. They removed the straight arrow filter and you saw this large green light.
I have not yet seen an 8/12 combination that emphasizes yellow only. I have also not seen a 12R -8Y-12G either.
4-aspect signals
RYG + arrow. Arrow will always be 12. Common combinations are: 8R-8Y-8G-12GA; 12R-8Y-8G-12GA; and 8R-8Y-12G*-12GA
* This 12 G is almost always a green straight arrow.
FYAs: I have only seen 12RA-12YA-12FYA-12GA of this type. But if certain liberties are taken, I could see an FYA that is designed with 8R-8Y-12FYA-12GA. The red arrow and steady yellow arrow would have to be converted to red ball and yellow ball and a "left turn signal" sign needs to be added. There already are some good reasons to have a yellow ball to indicate the end of the previous phase be different from the yellow arrow that indicates yield when turning, even though this is not allowed by the MUTCD. (It is an FYA corollary to the old-style 8R-8Y-12GA for protected green arrow.)
5 - aspect signals
RYG + 2 arrow: Arrows will always be 12. Common combinations are: 8R-8Y-8G-12YA-12GA (both in tower and MD style doghouse); 12R-8Y-8G-12YA-12GA; and 8R-8Y-12G*-12YA-12GA
* This 12 G is almost always a green straight arrow.
Others???
Bottom line. 8/12 combos are great finds, but they are slowly being replaced with all 12 inch aspects.
12-8-8 vehicular units remain a familiar sight on New York City streets nowadays, even though a majority of them in recent years have been replaced by standard 12" traffic signal housings. Generally, the 12-8-8 (emphasis on the red signal indication) configuration was beneficial for high speed approaches and considerably sharp turns that lead motorists immediately to signalized intersections. It was common for the NYCDOT at one time to incorporate actual 12" units with the 12-8-8 traffic signals. Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.
12" traffic signal units made their debut primarily in the 1970s on New York City streets, even though 8" heads at that time were and still are the norm. It was typical from time to time to see add-ons later at existing signalized intersections. The idea with the 12" heads co-existing with the 8" heads added better visibility to motorists than previously.
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on November 26, 2017, 02:48:14 AM
Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.
I'm guessing that's a nod to a time when the
primary signal heads were those mounted on poles in the corners, and the overhead signals were supplementary.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 26, 2017, 03:51:22 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on November 26, 2017, 02:48:14 AM
Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.
I'm guessing that's a nod to a time when the primary signal heads were those mounted on poles in the corners, and the overhead signals were supplementary.
Also reduces the likely hood of the hanging signal getting whacked by an overheight truck.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 26, 2017, 03:51:22 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on November 26, 2017, 02:48:14 AM
Typically, the 12-8-8 units were suspended above the streets, while the 12" vehicular heads were typically mounted to the side of the poles.
I'm guessing that's a nod to a time when the primary signal heads were those mounted on poles in the corners, and the overhead signals were supplementary.
Not necessarily. Traffic signals in New York City suspended above the streets are primary units. Those that are pole-mounted or mounted to the side of poles would be considered as supplementary heads.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 27, 2017, 03:13:38 AM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on November 27, 2017, 02:01:57 AM
Not necessarily. Traffic signals in New York City suspended above the streets are primary units. Those that are pole-mounted or mounted to the side of poles would be considered as supplementary heads.
Well, they're primary now, but perhaps they weren't always. In the UK, the primary signals are those that are pole mounted, and secondary signals are those mounted on mast arms. My thought was that, in NYC, the secondary signals used smaller signal heads because, for the most part, they were secondary to the pole-mounted signals.
They have always been primary units since the time traffic signal suspension in New York City was first standardized and implemented in 1955. Before then, pole-mounted vehicular heads controlled many intersections citywide for a large portion of the early 20th century, as they were the norm. The simple reason for the transition was visibility.
Side-mounted or pole-mounted traffic signals coexisting with primary units suspended above the streets typically act as enhancers to motorist visibility. So, if you're at the "STOP" line, for example, there's a likely chance you will not be able to see the traffic signal above you. That said, the additional unit, from your point of view, will face you (usually at or slightly above eye level) on the other side of the street (if we're at a four-way intersection setup).
https://goo.gl/9L1uZT
These 12-12-8 signals normally used for emergency signals seem to be in use to supplement the railroad crossing signals at this intersection. I've never seen this before, does anyone know if this is used elsewhere?
I can't think of any other reason they might be there. If you take a look at older street view imagery, they weren't always there.
Quote from: index on December 09, 2017, 12:11:24 AM
https://goo.gl/9L1uZT
These 12-12-8 signals normally used for emergency signals seem to be in use to supplement the railroad crossing signals at this intersection. I've never seen this before, does anyone know if this is used elsewhere?
I can't think of any other reason they might be there. If you take a look at older street view imagery, they weren't always there.
New Jersey has a crossing (or two) with 12-12-8s in use at it, though this is the only one I can remember off the top of my head:
http://www.rxrsignals.com/New_Jersey/West_Milford/Charlottesburg/
Quote from: freebrickproductions on December 09, 2017, 03:20:38 AM
Quote from: index on December 09, 2017, 12:11:24 AM
https://goo.gl/9L1uZT
These 12-12-8 signals normally used for emergency signals seem to be in use to supplement the railroad crossing signals at this intersection. I've never seen this before, does anyone know if this is used elsewhere?
I can't think of any other reason they might be there. If you take a look at older street view imagery, they weren't always there.
New Jersey has a crossing (or two) with 12-12-8s in use at it, though this is the only one I can remember off the top of my head:
http://www.rxrsignals.com/New_Jersey/West_Milford/Charlottesburg/
Hmm, so they work in the same manner that railroad crossing signals in some other countries do. Yellow phase, solid, flashing, or both, before a train arrives, then a red phase when the train is close.
There is a set of 12-12-8" signals facing each direction of SR 352 where it passes under a set of railroad tracks in Malvern, PA. These signals are here to stop traffic so pedestrians can cross under the underpass, as there isn't much horizontal clearance.
(https://i.imgur.com/TMBbO0Xl.jpg)
https://goo.gl/maps/ccjVfU4Rno62
https://goo.gl/2ZvybG
This is a rather odd find... A 12-8-8 with a 3M red section. There are two of them at this intersection. Why is programmable visibility in use at this intersection anyway? Is there something I'm not seeing?
Quote from: index on December 24, 2017, 05:38:59 PM
https://goo.gl/2ZvybG
This is a rather odd find... A 12-8-8 with a 3M red section. There are two of them at this intersection. Why is programmable visibility in use at this intersection anyway? Is there something I'm not seeing?
If I were to guess, it's so that traffic turning left onto Merrick Road from either side street doesn't think the red is for them. The 3M red sections are likely masked so that only traffic behind Merrick's stop line can see them.
Sorry if this was mentioned but downtown Newberg still has two and Sherwood still has a pedestrian crossing with this design.