I remember as a small child you could buy all kinds of sodas in glass REFILLABLE bottles. It would even say on the neck of the bottles, "MONEY BACK BOTTLE" & "RETURN FOR DEPOSIT". And IMO, they tasted so much better coming from a glass bottle than a plastic bottle or aluminum can.
But times are different now. There is no such thing as a returnable container. I also thought there was no such thing as a deposit on a container. But after reading some of the responses in the Coke Freestyle thread, someone mentioned paying a deposit on a soda purchase.
What is that all about? :hmmm: I thought that was a thing of the past.
There are several states that have the "bottle bill" which monetizes empty bottles. The postal abbreviations of the states that do are generally on the packages. This is an anti-litter / enviro move of questionable effectiveness.
This is different from refillable bottles. And here is why the refillable bottle for soda/pop went away. The completion of the interstates and the economy of scale. Back in the day, each soda/pop company had a bottling plant in any city of any size at all. The product was a two-way product. The salesman delivered filled bottles and collected empties, which were sorted and washed locally and used over and over. Today the product is a one-way product. The product is bottled at a mega-plant perhaps 100s of miles away. Obviously shipping heavy glass empties back is not economically possible, so there you go.
In my area, the refillable bottle died out about 1987 or so.
Quote from: cjk374 on October 12, 2017, 04:06:36 PM
I remember as a small child you could buy all kinds of sodas in glass REFILLABLE bottles. It would even say on the neck of the bottles, "MONEY BACK BOTTLE" & "RETURN FOR DEPOSIT". And IMO, they tasted so much better coming from a glass bottle than a plastic bottle or aluminum can.
But times are different now. There is no such thing as a returnable container.
I'm currently in Punta Cana. They absolutely still have refillable bottles...I'm drinking from one in my room right now.
I generally see things like:
(for the most part, state names are probably not accurate, this is just a guess)
CA, CT, CO, FL, HI, MA, ME, NY 5¢, MI 10¢
There are different lists of states depending on the exact type.
Found an actual can (not bottle): CT-HI-IA-MA-ME-NY-OR-VT 5¢ MI 10¢
Quote from: SP Cook on October 12, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
There are several states that have the "bottle bill" which monetizes empty bottles. The postal abbreviations of the states that do are generally on the packages. This is an anti-litter / enviro move of questionable effectiveness.
It's a measure of very good effectiveness. One only need compare the roadsides in Illinois (no deposit law) and Michigan (10 cent deposit law). Illinois roadside are filled with cans and bottles while Michigan one are much, much cleaner. I dearly wish we had such a deposit law here in Illinois.
Quote from: SP Cook on October 12, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
This is different from refillable bottles. And here is why the refillable bottle for soda/pop went away. The completion of the interstates and the economy of scale. Back in the day, each soda/pop company had a bottling plant in any city of any size at all. The product was a two-way product. The salesman delivered filled bottles and collected empties, which were sorted and washed locally and used over and over. Today the product is a one-way product. The product is bottled at a mega-plant perhaps 100s of miles away. Obviously shipping heavy glass empties back is not economically possible, so there you go.
Not quite accurate. The refillable glass bottle went away due to costs involved with disinfecting each and every bottle prior to the next use. Then you have to have replacement bottle for those that are chipped or broken. Glass that heavy is expensive to produce. Quite frankly, it's a hell of a cheaper to use non-refillable plastic and aluminum (and thin glass for beer) bottles and cans.
I am old enough to remember when "No Deposit No Return" was first introduced, and was actually touted by the marketing departments of the soda producers as a consumer benefit.
My boss used to work for Coca-Cola, and he always dreaded filling the reusable bottles. They sat outside, collecting gunk and grime, so they had to be cleaned. Some people apparently found it humorous to put stuff in the empties, too, and one employee apparently tossed a half-smoked cigar in a bottle. Combine that with QC inspectors who weren't always the most attentive, and who knows what ended up in a bottle of Coke.
I far prefer the taste of soda from glass, to the point that I hardly ever even use a plastic cup. And I can walk a block from my house to a Mexican bakery and occasionally buy soda in a 20-year-old refillable bottle imported from Mexico. I can't refill it here, of course, but it's fun to see the old labels.
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2017, 04:49:57 PM
I generally see things like:
(for the most part, state names are probably not accurate, this is just a guess)
CA, CT, CO, FL, HI, MA, ME, NY 5¢, MI 10¢
There are different lists of states depending on the exact type.
Found an actual can (not bottle): CT-HI-IA-MA-ME-NY-OR-VT 5¢ MI 10¢
Delaware has a 5c deposit on plastic bottles, but not cans. From what I've seen, people rarely return them.
Quote from: Brandon on October 12, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on October 12, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
There are several states that have the "bottle bill" which monetizes empty bottles. The postal abbreviations of the states that do are generally on the packages. This is an anti-litter / enviro move of questionable effectiveness.
It's a measure of very good effectiveness. One only need compare the roadsides in Illinois (no deposit law) and Michigan (10 cent deposit law). Illinois roadside are filled with cans and bottles while Michigan one are much, much cleaner. I dearly wish we had such a deposit law here in Illinois.
Yes, they are. Iowa, with a five-cent deposit on any container for carbonated or alcoholic beverages, is one of the leading states in the nation as far as recycled cans/bottles goes. That being said, I can't be assed to bring my empties to the (usually disgusting) redemption center for my deposit back. I just chuck them in with the rest of my recyclables. I think of it as a convenience fee.
California has such a law, and the deposit is called CRV: California Redemption Value. It applies to cans, bottles, and jugs of certain products (soda, beer, bottled water) but not others (wine, non-carbonated juice, milk). I don't know if CRV has any meaningful effect on littering, but based on my own observations, most middle class people don't bother with separating CRV from their other recyclables.
What does happen, though, is that scroungers dig through public trash cans and suburbanites' curbside recycling bins looking for CRV containers. I've seen scroungers pick up cans by the side of the road (a positive result), but I've also seen them empty trash cans onto the sidewalk piece by piece in search for CRV, leaving a pile of garbage behind (a not so positive result).
I like the idea in theory, but as someone who obsessively recycles everything I can anyway, CRV amounted to an extra tax on certain types of products. Various retailers and recycling centers are designated CRV redemption locations, but the law only requires them to actually count a certain number of containers by day. Above that number, they're allowed to simply weigh the containers and use a formula to calculate the amount due.
When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.
This thread topic reminds me of a little known fact: The famous "crying Indian" PSA–widely considered to be a touchstone of the environmental movement that was just coalescing in the early '70s–was actually one of the most shameless pieces of greenwashing in American history. The sponsor of the ad, Keep America Beautiful, was (and is) not some kind of altruistic band of tree-huggers but actually a trade association comprised of some of the world's largest litter producers, including soft drink companies and breweries. At the time, KAB was most concerned with repealing deposit laws–thereby creating more litter.
And in that context, the "crying Indian" ad is even more audacious. While KAB was lobbying for the laws that would encourage more litter, they were at the same time wagging their collective finger at the American public, saying Litter is YOUR fault.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2017, 06:11:38 PM
When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.
A bit different than in Michigan. In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer. The machine will spit out a slip for the value of the cans and bottles that you can then take with you to redeem at the register. The idea is that since you return your cans and bottles at the grocer, you can then buy more while you're there. Thus, the deposit becomes more of a revolving thing - the last redemption pays for the deposit on the new pop or beer.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2017, 06:11:38 PM
California has such a law, and the deposit is called CRV: California Redemption Value. It applies to cans, bottles, and jugs of certain products (soda, beer, bottled water) but not others (wine, non-carbonated juice, milk). I don't know if CRV has any meaningful effect on littering, but based on my own observations, most middle class people don't bother with separating CRV from their other recyclables.
What does happen, though, is that scroungers dig through public trash cans and suburbanites' curbside recycling bins looking for CRV containers. I've seen scroungers pick up cans by the side of the road (a positive result), but I've also seen them empty trash cans onto the sidewalk piece by piece in search for CRV, leaving a pile of garbage behind (a not so positive result).
I like the idea in theory, but as someone who obsessively recycles everything I can anyway, CRV amounted to an extra tax on certain types of products. Various retailers and recycling centers are designated CRV redemption locations, but the law only requires them to actually count a certain number of containers by day. Above that number, they're allowed to simply weigh the containers and use a formula to calculate the amount due.
When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.
As an obsessive recycler, I am unimpressed with the California CRV program. Main problem is the scarcity of redemption locations. In other states, many Walmarts have redemption centers with machines to take your cans and give you a receipt to take to a cashier. Redemption centers are harder to find in California, at least for tourists, and the ones I have found have limited hours. In that state, I'll just save my cans for the next rest area or park with recycling bins, even though I get no CRV refund.
There is some variation among states about the ease of getting redemption center machines to take your out-of-state cans, even ones where you paid a deposit. Iowa and Michigan machines seem to be generous on that. The New England states are more uneven. Oregon (where the deposit at issue is higher, at 10 cents/can), forget it.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2017, 06:11:38 PM
This thread topic reminds me of a little known fact: The famous "crying Indian" PSA–widely considered to be a touchstone of the environmental movement that was just coalescing in the early '70s–was actually one of the most shameless pieces of greenwashing in American history. The sponsor of the ad, Keep America Beautiful, was (and is) not some kind of altruistic band of tree-huggers but actually a trade association comprised of some of the world's largest litter producers, including soft drink companies and breweries. At the time, KAB was most concerned with repealing deposit laws–thereby creating more litter.
And in that context, the "crying Indian" ad is even more audacious. While KAB was lobbying for the laws that would encourage more litter, they were at the same time wagging their collective finger at the American public, saying Litter is YOUR fault.
The "crying Indian"'s name was "Iron Eyes" Cody.
Quote from: Brandon on October 12, 2017, 06:54:50 PM
In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer.
In fairness, I should point out that there are relative few automated CRV return kiosks located in California supermarkets.
But the ones that I encountered, at least, have some serious flaws. The return device itself has a cylindrically-shaped chamber, roughly 4 inches in diameter, in which to insert the bottles and cans. So for starters, anything larger than a 1-liter bottle can't be accepted.
Because not every container qualifies for CRV, the machine has to determine eligibility before issuing a refund credit. It does this by scanning the UPC on the bottle and matching it against a database of eligible products. This leads to a host of problems. First, that means that that the UPC must be readable–so crushing cans to save space is not allowed, and if a label has become detached or destroyed, the container will be rejected. And in my experience, the machine fails to read the barcode about one time out of five, forcing you to re-insert the bottle for a re-scan. Finally, I've had a number of bottles (mainly beers from small breweries) get rejected after several attempts as "not eligible" , even though I paid CRV on them. Assumably, they were not in the database.
And even when it works, the system is horribly horribly slow. It goes like this:
Insert can... one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CAN ACCEPTED" ...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CREDIT: $0.05"
Insert can...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "READ ERROR" ...can return. Re-insert can...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CAN ACCEPTED" ...one one-thousand, two one thousand, three one-thousand... "CREDIT: $0.10" .
(https://www.greenprophet.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/lebanon-reverse-vending-machine.jpg)
That's how it works at major retailers here in Iowa, too. It's also why I don't bother with redeeming them for the deposit. Just chuck 'em into the recycle bin with everything else.
But in any event I'm still all for the program if it reduces littering and waste. I also don't think it's fair to blame bottlers for littering–blame the idiots who think it's okay to chuck their stuff out the window in the first place.
The other thing worth noting about these deposit programs is they are a source of revenue. If the deposit on a container is not redeemed, the state treasury keeps the 5 cents - not the store where you bought it.
The interesting thing worth noting though, is that whether the machines accept the container is based entirely on the bar code. Sometimes, due to supply logistics, containers with the deposit code on them are sold in a jurisdiction that does not charge a deposit. And sometimes even in a jurisdiction that does, a particular establishment may not be in compliance with the law an not charge the deposit even though they are legally supposed to (common among local small business restaurants and stores in NYC).
The machines cannot tell the difference between these containers and one on which a deposit was actually charged, so it is possible to be cheeky and make 5 cents per container by returning them. This is illegal, of course, but extremely difficult to prove and thus not enforced for anything short of someone outright running a racket doing this.
Returning cans/bottles has been made difficult enough I don't bother anymore. I consider the deposit a price increase.
I smash and return in bulk the aluminum, but the plastic stuff goes in the trash.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 12, 2017, 08:54:46 PM
The other thing worth noting about these deposit programs is they are a source of revenue. If the deposit on a container is not redeemed, the state treasury keeps the 5 cents - not the store where you bought it.
Maybe that's true in New York, but it is not in Michigan. In Michigan, the retailer keeps 25% of the deposits not returned (2.5 cents of the container deposit). Interestingly enough, their return rates are the highest in the US at 94-97%.
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2017, 04:49:57 PMFound an actual can (not bottle): CT-HI-IA-MA-ME-NY-OR-VT 5¢ MI 10¢
I've seen similar markings on bottle labels as well. Such is usually located (in small print) near the bar code.
Quote from: Brandon on October 12, 2017, 06:54:50 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2017, 06:11:38 PM
When I'd take in my CRV containers for redemption, it always seemed as if I was getting shortchanged. I'd save up hundreds of crushed aluminum cans for months, make the drive to the recycling center, and walk out with a check for something like $9.86. Hardly worth the time.
A bit different than in Michigan. In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer. The machine will spit out a slip for the value of the cans and bottles that you can then take with you to redeem at the register. The idea is that since you return your cans and bottles at the grocer, you can then buy more while you're there. Thus, the deposit becomes more of a revolving thing - the last redemption pays for the deposit on the new pop or beer.
That's how it works in Massachusetts. However, stores are not mandated to accept returns. Not an issue in the suburbs, where you can usually find a supermarket. But try redeeming bottles and cans at smaller stores in a city like Boston. Also, the automatic redemption machines in supermarkets are horribly unreliable, and often out of order.
The other quirk about the Massachusetts bottle law is that it only applies to containers for carbonated beverages. So a bottle containing Coke can be redeemed, but a bottle containing Poland Springs water cannot. There was an attempt recently to change that - it ended up on the statewide ballot as an initiative petition, and was voted down, largely due to the right wingers who decried bottle deposits as an unfair tax on people.
Quotefrom: Brandon on October 12, 2017, 06:54:50 PM
In Michigan, you take your cans and bottles to a grocer (like Kroger, Meijer, or even Walmart) and there is a bottle return center at the grocer.
But the ones that I encountered, at least, have some serious flaws. The return device itself has a cylindrically-shaped chamber, roughly 4 inches in diameter, in which to insert the bottles and cans. So for starters, anything larger than a 1-liter bottle can't be accepted.
Supermarkets in Massachusetts have two types of automated machines - one for bottles and one for cans. The bottle machines can accept 1 or 2 liter bottles.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 12, 2017, 06:11:38 PM
What does happen, though, is that scroungers dig through public trash cans and suburbanites' curbside recycling bins looking for CRV containers. I've seen scroungers pick up cans by the side of the road (a positive result), but I've also seen them empty trash cans onto the sidewalk piece by piece in search for CRV, leaving a pile of garbage behind (a not so positive result).
Hitchhiking through Michigan one time, I got a ride from a couple who said they used to go into a lot in Paw Paw where trucks would sit full of empty bottles overnight, break into the trucks, steal a bunch of bottles, and then redeem them for cash.
After Michigan did the 10 cent deposit, Ohio tried a few times to put deposits on cans and bottles, but it never was approved by voters.
In the glass bottle days, Ohio deposits were 10 cents for 16-ounce returnables and 20-cents for 32-oz bottles. I used to sneak our empties up to our corner store to convert bottles into candy!!!
One of my first jobs was working at a grocery store. My main jobs were gathering carts, bagging groceries, parcel-pickup (putting grocery bags in peoples cars) and bottle sorting (about 2-1/2 of those tasks are now extinct).
It used to suck when people would bring in oddball brands of pop in the 16 and 32-ounce sizes. None of the beverage companies would accept them, or at least take them for recycling. Every once in a while, we would "bury" one in the middle of a crate of returns and get away with it. Those empties took up a helluva lotta space in the back room of a supermarket.
I wonder if it's worthwhile for the mixed recycling sorters we use to separate out anything with a deposit, so the recycling center gets it instead of the state pocketing it.
Bicycling the roads of Massachusetts and New Hampshire, I can tell you that Massachusetts having a bottle deposit and New Hampshire not having one makes zero difference to the amount of crap you find on the sides of the road.
One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash.
On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund. I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away. Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?
There have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.
As concerns the old-style glass bottles, Ale-8 is still produced in those bottles. There are four containers for Ale-8 -- 12-ounce returnable glass bottles, 12-ounce non-returnable glass bottles, 20-ounce non-returnable plastic bottles, and 12-ounce cans. There are people who claim to this day that the beverage in the returnable bottles tastes better than that in the non-returnable bottles. (And cans -- even before Ale-8 went to the other type bottles besides returnable glass, it always tasted different in the cans.) Grocers who sell the returnable bottles require those to be presented to the cashier upon entry to the store for credit or cash.
When I was young, and the returnable bottles ruled the market, we would save or pick up the bottles until we had enough to make it profitable to sell them back to the grocery store. I can remember buying Pepsi products in those bottles up until the mid-1980s.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2017, 09:06:31 PM
One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash. On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund.
Then don't complain.
QuoteI don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away.
Why?
QuoteWhy should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?
Because you didn't pay the Michigan deposit for those particular containers? How hard is that to understand?
QuoteThere have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.
Care to explain why? Seems hypocritical considering the rest of your post.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2017, 09:06:31 PM
One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash.
On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund. I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away. Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?
There have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.
As concerns the old-style glass bottles, Ale-8 is still produced in those bottles. There are four containers for Ale-8 -- 12-ounce returnable glass bottles, 12-ounce non-returnable glass bottles, 20-ounce non-returnable plastic bottles, and 12-ounce cans. There are people who claim to this day that the beverage in the returnable bottles tastes better than that in the non-returnable bottles. (And cans -- even before Ale-8 went to the other type bottles besides returnable glass, it always tasted different in the cans.) Grocers who sell the returnable bottles require those to be presented to the cashier upon entry to the store for credit or cash.
When I was young, and the returnable bottles ruled the market, we would save or pick up the bottles until we had enough to make it profitable to sell them back to the grocery store. I can remember buying Pepsi products in those bottles up until the mid-1980s.
I believe that Michigan was one of the last states to switch to all-plastic pop bottles, since they had the 10 cent deposit and thus the bottlers likely saved more in the long run to just reuse the glass bottles. When I lived in Toledo, OH everything was plastic there by 1990, but whenever I went over the border into Michigan, I would make an effort to stop and get Coca-Cola in a glass bottle or two, since it tasted better in glass than in the plastic.
Never bothered to go back and get my deposit back in most cases, either. The better flavor was worth the extra dime!!!
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2017, 09:06:31 PM
One of the things that bothers me is that it's illegal in some states (Michigan comes to mind) to bring in out-of-state bottles to redeem for cash.
On my last trip there, I bought several six-packs of Diet Vernors at a Walmart in Michigan. I paid the deposit on it despite the fact that I would be bringing the pop back to Kentucky to drink and would not be returning bottles for a refund. I don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away. Why should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?
It is a bit of a puzzle why MI deposit info is stamped into the can lid, when there is no corresponding MI deposit UPC code to make sure Walmart's/Meijer's/etc. redemption machines will accept it.
Could you have bought your beverages at a Walmart in Indiana or Ohio, with no deposit? When out West this summer, I made a point of stocking up on beverages when outside California and Oregon when possible (helped that there's no deposits in all the neighboring states, so I could often restock there mid-trip). When I had to pay Oregon's especially high deposit, and knowing that its redemption machines are good at rejecting out-of-state cans, I made sure to buy only what I needed and could consume while in Oregon, and to redeem as many of the Oregon-purchased cans as possible before I left the state for good.
Quote from: Brandon on October 12, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
It's a measure of very good effectiveness. One only need compare the roadsides in Illinois (no deposit law) and Michigan (10 cent deposit law). Illinois roadside are filled with cans and bottles while Michigan one are much, much cleaner. I dearly wish we had such a deposit law here in Illinois.
Not such a good indicator, actually. In New York, we do have a deposit law...but look at the roadsides in NYC. At least part of that is because, as mentioned elsewhere, professional bottle scroungers tear open the plastic garbage bags at the curbside (because NYC declines to use rigid containers), pick out what they can easily redeem, and leave the rest behind for the snowplow to spread everywhere after it has gotten frozen into the snowbank.
And of course, the reason there are bottles and cans in those bags for them to find is because few ordinary people actually redeem theirs at all. Many people aren't even aware of the law, while others have found it too much of a hassle to argue with their local grocer every time they want their nickel back. And
that's because few local grocers or shop owners participate willingly or fully in the redemption program.
The biggest problem you find is that shop owners believe that if they don't have a redemption machine (or if theirs is out of service), they aren't required to refund your money. That's false: they're required to return your nickel for every redeemable item* they carry, even if purchased elsewhere. Whether the store owner automates the process or has to do it manually is not the customers' concern; they are entitled to their money, regardless.
*In specific brand/size/packaging combinations, that is. So, if they sell Coke only in 16oz plastic bottles, they must redeem any such bottle brought in. But they would not have to redeem 16oz glass bottles, 1-liter bottles, or cans of Coke.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on October 13, 2017, 09:20:11 PM
QuoteI don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away.
Why?
Two reasons, really. One is that it's a pain to try to keep everything separate, and it's easier just to throw everything in one trash container. I have to pay the same to have my trash disposed of whether I throw away no bags a week or 10 bags a week. I did used to save aluminum cans to sell, but the revenue wasn't worth the hassle.
The second reason (let the flames begin) is more of a political statement than anything else. Recycling gets shoved down our throats and throwing plastic bottles -- and cans and paper, as well -- -away is my little way of rebelling.
QuoteQuoteWhy should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?
Because you didn't pay the Michigan deposit for those particular containers? How hard is that to understand?
Why is the origin of the particular containers of any importance? If I take 18 containers out of the state of Michigan and return with 18 containers from elsewhere, there is no worthwhile difference. It's the same quantity of empty bottles, and all bottles have the Michigan deposit information included. The labeling and shape of the bottle is different, that's all.
QuoteQuoteThere have been attempts to pass such deposit laws in Kentucky and I have always vociferously opposed them.
Care to explain why? Seems hypocritical considering the rest of your post.
Why's that? I stated that I don't like bottle deposit laws. They're inconvenient, and they reek of social engineering. The same politicians that talk about passing such laws here also talk about putting a special tax on fast food because some people throw the wrappers out their car windows. Don't get me started on a society that treats littering as more of a crime than drug dealing, theft, assault and a number of other offenses.
Quote from: oscar on October 13, 2017, 09:44:03 PM
Could you have bought your beverages at a Walmart in Indiana or Ohio, with no deposit? When out West this summer, I made a point of stocking up on beverages when outside California and Oregon when possible (helped that there's no deposits in all the neighboring states, so I could often restock there mid-trip). When I had to pay Oregon's especially high deposit, and knowing that its redemption machines are good at rejecting out-of-state cans, I made sure to buy only what I needed and could consume while in Oregon, and to redeem as many of the Oregon-purchased cans as possible before I left the state for good.
No, and I looked. I spent the night prior to my Michigan foray in South Bend. I hit both the Walmart and Meijer stores there, and no Diet Vernors to be found -- no Vernors at all, except for two-liters of the sugary stuff at Meijer. I don't even think they had any at a Kroger in Elkhart -- I get 12-pack cans of Diet Vernors at Kroger in Winchester or Frankfort here -- but the Indiana Kroger had Ale-8.
It should also be noted that the nearest Kroger to me (Stanton) carries regular and diet Cheerwine in 12-pack cans, although at an inflated price. Which made me happy to find it 4 for $10 at a North Carolina Kroger when I was in that state a few weeks ago.
I prefer plastic resealable bottles to cans for just about all soft drinks, which is why I was happy to find the bottles at the Walmart, and was also happy that my Michigan cousin (the chief engineer for the Lake Michigan ferry) brought four six-packs of Diet Vernors in the bottles when he came down for the annual Memorial Day service at the cemetery where our grandparents are buried.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
One is that it's a pain to try to keep everything separate, and it's easier just to throw everything in one trash container.
Suppose it's a question of what you're used to. I've been putting paper, metal/plastic/glass with deposits, metal/plastic/glass without deposits, and everything else in separate containers my entire life. It does not seem to be a pain or in any way burdensome to me - it's just the normal way things are done.
Of course, I also find sorting things to be satisfying in an OCD sort of way. If you gave me 37 cans and asked me to separate waste into 37 different categories I would probably do it willingly.
QuoteQuoteQuoteWhy should it be illegal for me to save bottles from Diet Coke purchased and consumed in Kentucky, where there is no bottle deposit fee on them but they are marked with the Michigan deposit information, for a few weeks prior to my next trip to Michigan to reclaim the money I left there on my previous visit?
Because you didn't pay the Michigan deposit for those particular containers? How hard is that to understand?
Why is the origin of the particular containers of any importance? If I take 18 containers out of the state of Michigan and return with 18 containers from elsewhere, there is no worthwhile difference. It's the same quantity of empty bottles, and all bottles have the Michigan deposit information included. The labeling and shape of the bottle is different, that's all.
Making this sort of fair trade is perfectly in line with the spirit of the law. The folks who wrote the law likely did not consider this particular scenario, since it is unusual, an added complication, and unlikely to ever actually matter in practice. No one in a position of enforcing the law is going to notice or care that you're returning 18 bottles from out of state.
When I'm at someone else's house I usually ask if they have a recycling container. At a relative's house in Ohio last year I asked that question. She said their recycling system is truly single stream: Everything gets thrown away as garbage. It's then all sent to a center that picks out the recyclables and separates them from the actual garbage! (I think I believe that...although I've never heard of it elsewhere!)
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
Why is the origin of the particular containers of any importance? If I take 18 containers out of the state of Michigan and return with 18 containers from elsewhere, there is no worthwhile difference. It's the same quantity of empty bottles, and all bottles have the Michigan deposit information included. The labeling and shape of the bottle is different, that's all.
While in that case there is no worthwhile difference, repealing the ban on returning out of state bottles wouldn't just allow that to happen - it would allow people to stock up on bottles and redeem them at Michigan's rate, even if they never purchased any bottles there in their entire life. I imagine that's why the ban is there in the first place. The states with 5 cent deposits don't have this issue because there is no incentive to return the bottle in a specific state, so if someone's returning an out of state bottle, it's because they're traveling and just happen to be there when they return the bottle, and it likely evens out in the end. Since Michigan has a 10 cent deposit, people would have an incentive to bring large quantities of bottles in to the state to be redeemed, with themselves (and the states the bottles were purchased from) 5 cents profit for each one.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 14, 2017, 01:19:51 AM
When I'm at someone else's house I usually ask if they have a recycling container. At a relative's house in Ohio last year I asked that question. She said their recycling system is truly single stream: Everything gets thrown away as garbage. It's then all sent to a center that picks out the recyclables and separates them from the actual garbage! (I think I believe that...although I've never heard of it elsewhere!)
That's interesting. I've had single stream among the recyclables since I turned 18, but I've never heard of single stream involving garbage as well.
https://youtu.be/x1blsZxXDCU
CT has a bottle bill that applies to all carbonated beverages (including beer), as well as on bottled water. However, not all size bottles of water are included. A 16.9 oz. bottle has a deposit on it, but the 3 liter jugs or gallons of water do not have deposits. Because MA does not have a deposit on water, companies like Poland Spring have to print special labels for MA that say NO DEPOSIT and have a red outline around the barcode so that redemption machines can differentiate it from bottles that are returnable (even noticed a MA bottle during Dave Dombrowski's press conference). Every supermarket has a dedicated bottle redemption area with anywhere from 3-12 machines for plastic, aluminum, and glass. Some stores are really sticky about which brands they will accept. Most are reciprocal (i.e. you can cash in a Walmart or ShopRite brand bottle at Stop & Shop and vice versa), but some stores won't take a brand that they don't sell, so many off brand microbrew beer bottles are a pain in the neck to return unless you bring it back to the liquor store in a 6-pack. It is illegal in CT to return bottles not marked for redemption, but most bottling plants for Coca-Cola and PepsiCo have different bar coding, so their bar codes are not often programmed in the machine (however, since the statute of limitations would be up, I was able to cash in some cans from MD in CT despite there being no bottle deposit in MD). There are a couple of distributors (using old Pop Shop bottles) that charge a 10 cent deposit and a 60 cent deposit on the case, and can only be returned at the point of purchase or to someone who sells them. There was recently a bill in the legislature to raise the bill to 10 cents, expand it to include juices, or to eliminate the deposit and just include a tax. The last option was not very popular. Fortunately, CT has not yet gone the way of Chicago and included a sugary beverage tax.
Quote from: thenetwork on October 14, 2017, 10:53:33 AM
I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring up the
Seinfeld episode.
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2017, 10:14:26 AM
That's interesting. I've had single stream among the recyclables since I turned 18, but I've never heard of single stream involving garbage as well.
I haven't heard of it for household waste, although the MTA does this in the subway. They've been doing it since the 70s, in fact, but never advertised it until about a decade ago when someone noticed the lack of recycling bins in the subway and raised a stink about "hey, why isn't the MTA recycling". And then they pointed out "actually, we are".
Fort Smith went for almost 2 years collecting recycling, but throwing in the landfill with the trash. Some story about losing the contract with their recycle company.
Quote from: briantroutman on October 14, 2017, 11:02:07 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on October 14, 2017, 10:53:33 AM
I'm surprised it took this long for someone to bring up the Seinfeld episode.
That presumes that everyone here watches, or watched, Seinfeld. I never cared for it. It was totally non-interesting to me.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2017, 09:00:39 PM
That presumes that everyone here watches, or watched, Seinfeld. I never cared for it. It was totally non-interesting to me.
There's hope for you yet ;)
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2017, 11:44:35 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on October 13, 2017, 09:20:11 PM
QuoteI don't recycle for several reasons so those plastic bottles got thrown away.
Why?
Two reasons, really. One is that it's a pain to try to keep everything separate, and it's easier just to throw everything in one trash container.
Modern single-stream recycling processes allow you to toss everything in one bin. All recyclables go in the blue bin, everything else in the green one.
QuoteThe second reason (let the flames begin) is more of a political statement than anything else. Recycling gets shoved down our throats and throwing plastic bottles -- and cans and paper, as well -- -away is my little way of rebelling.
I would imagine that you react similarly when told the benefits of exercise, or of running anti-virus software, or brushing your teeth, or not smoking.
Recycling really is just window dressing. In my area the wacko mayor finally had to admit that they were just burying the "recyclables" in the dump with everything else, but said "well, we know where they are and someday....".
If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it. No deposit required.
Quote from: SP Cook on October 17, 2017, 06:35:20 AM
Recycling really is just window dressing. In my area the wacko mayor finally had to admit that they were just burying the "recyclables" in the dump with everything else, but said "well, we know where they are and someday....".
If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it. No deposit required.
Aluminum does have value (3 cents a can or so), but extracting that requires collection system which may cost more than it worth.
Another aspect of recycling certain things - and people seem to overlook that, although they do pay for that in a long run - is landfill capacity. Even with all compacting used, empty containers will take a lot of volume; that reduces landfill capacity, lifespan, and eventually shows up as a cost for residents via having to designate and establish new landfill - probably further away from the city. Maybe not a big thing for sparsely populated areas; but for example NYC ships their waste a few hundred miles away; and shipping air in the empty container is a direct cost for them.
Quote from: kalvado on October 17, 2017, 08:29:20 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on October 17, 2017, 06:35:20 AM
Recycling really is just window dressing. In my area the wacko mayor finally had to admit that they were just burying the "recyclables" in the dump with everything else, but said "well, we know where they are and someday....".
If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it. No deposit required.
Aluminum does have value (3 cents a can or so), but extracting that requires collection system which may cost more than it worth.
Another aspect of recycling certain things - and people seem to overlook that, although they do pay for that in a long run - is landfill capacity. Even with all compacting used, empty containers will take a lot of volume; that reduces landfill capacity, lifespan, and eventually shows up as a cost for residents via having to designate and establish new landfill - probably further away from the city. Maybe not a big thing for sparsely populated areas; but for example NYC ships their waste a few hundred miles away; and shipping air in the empty container is a direct cost for them.
Cans go for around 20 cents a pound at the scrapyard, which averages 1.5 cents a can. Tennessee charges a 5 cent "deposit" (tax) per can. On my way home from the RMCA meet, there was a major argument between a cashier and a customer about getting their "deposit" back. ... they didn't.
I have a box in the back of the van for collecting cans as I find them. I have a plastic barrel at home I keep them in then take them to recycling when the barrel is full.
Quote from: SP Cook on October 17, 2017, 06:35:20 AM
If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it. No deposit required.
It already does.
In Norman, the city has a contract with a recycling company. The company is required to pick up the recycling of everyone in town, at home. Then they sort the recyclables and sell the raw materials off to companies that do the actual recycling. They profit by getting more for the raw materials than it cost to pick them up and sort them.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 17, 2017, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on October 17, 2017, 06:35:20 AM
If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it. No deposit required.
It already does.
In Norman, the city has a contract with a recycling company. The company is required to pick up the recycling of everyone in town, at home. Then they sort the recyclables and sell the raw materials off to companies that do the actual recycling. They profit by getting more for the raw materials than it cost to pick them up and sort them.
I heard that residential recycling rarely pays for itself until you consider landfill capacity as part of equation. Cans may be better than anything else, though.
Quote from: kalvado on October 17, 2017, 04:40:10 PM
I heard that residential recycling rarely pays for itself until you consider landfill capacity as part of equation. Cans may be better than anything else, though.
More broadly, anything made of metal (not just cans) has pretty good economics for recycling because extracting metal from ore is a labor and energy intensive process, whereas melting down and reforming used metal is comparatively easy.
Aluminum is relatively cheap ($0.97/lb), but there are other metals for which it's even more of a slam dunk. Copper ($3.20/lb) is worth enough and abundant enough that people will take apart old electronics and machinery for it in their spare time. Tin ($9.45/lb) is even more valuable, albeit no longer found in pure form in any common items.
Quote from: Duke87 on October 17, 2017, 07:55:54 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 17, 2017, 04:40:10 PM
I heard that residential recycling rarely pays for itself until you consider landfill capacity as part of equation. Cans may be better than anything else, though.
More broadly, anything made of metal (not just cans) has pretty good economics for recycling because extracting metal from ore is a labor and energy intensive process, whereas melting down and reforming used metal is comparatively easy.
Aluminum is relatively cheap ($0.97/lb), but there are other metals for which it's even more of a slam dunk. Copper ($3.20/lb) is worth enough and abundant enough that people will take apart old electronics and machinery for it in their spare time. Tin ($9.45/lb) is even more valuable, albeit no longer found in pure form in any common items.
There is not enough scrap metal generated in most residencies to justify periodic pickups like they do with trash and bottle-can-paper recycling. I am not sure chunk of Copper or bronze will actually get recycled if I throw that into regular recycle bin. Specialized scrap metal facilities are a different story.
I mean, my impression was we're talking about residential recycling of consumer products..
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 17, 2017, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on October 17, 2017, 06:35:20 AM
If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it. No deposit required.
It already does.
In Norman, the city has a contract with a recycling company. The company is required to pick up the recycling of everyone in town, at home. Then they sort the recyclables and sell the raw materials off to companies that do the actual recycling. They profit by getting more for the raw materials than it cost to pick them up and sort them.
Does the city pay the recycler (as Ft Smith does) or does the recycler pay for the privilege?
Since we went to slightly more general recycling...
NYS also has a deposit on car batteries. The way it works is once you buy a new lead-acid battery, store charges you extra $5 and hands out separate receipt for that.
Once you bring an old battery for recycling to the same store, you get those $5 back with that receipt - just bringing an old battery without buying a new one doesn't work. As far as I understand, lead in the battery is worth a lot more than $5.
Quote from: kalvado on October 18, 2017, 01:25:23 PM
Since we went to slightly more general recycling...
NYS also has a deposit on car batteries. The way it works is once you buy a new lead-acid battery, store charges you extra $5 and hands out separate receipt for that.
Once you bring an old battery for recycling to the same store, you get those $5 back with that receipt - just bringing an old battery without buying a new one doesn't work. As far as I understand, lead in the battery is worth a lot more than $5.
The battery core charge in Kentucky is $10. And the way I understand, you can bring in more than one battery and get $10 for each one.
Quote from: US71 on October 17, 2017, 09:03:03 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 17, 2017, 04:13:02 PM
Quote from: SP Cook on October 17, 2017, 06:35:20 AM
If trash has a value (such a aluminum cans) the free market will take care of it. No deposit required.
It already does.
In Norman, the city has a contract with a recycling company. The company is required to pick up the recycling of everyone in town, at home. Then they sort the recyclables and sell the raw materials off to companies that do the actual recycling. They profit by getting more for the raw materials than it cost to pick them up and sort them.
Does the city pay the recycler (as Ft Smith does) or does the recycler pay for the privilege?
I'm not sure, but there is a $3 surcharge added onto the water bill, so I assume the city pays the recycling company.
Quote from: kalvado on October 17, 2017, 04:40:10 PM
I heard that residential recycling rarely pays for itself until you consider landfill capacity as part of equation. Cans may be better than anything else, though.
It depends on what you mean by "pays for itself". Recycling most things is cheaper than manufacturing virgin materials. However, whether or not one can break even on a recycling program is another question.
My understanding is that most recycling programs would break even or even profit, but for the fact that most of them accept glass. Glass is recyclable, but is such a pain to deal with (because, get this, it breaks) that it ends up costing so much to deal with in terms of labor and extra processing to keep the broken glass from contaminating the other materials that it ends up tanking the whole program's profitability.