Poll
Question:
Do you pronounce drive as "jrive" and train as "chrain"?
Option 1: Yes, I say "jrive" and "chrain"
votes: 7
Option 2: No, I don't say either of those
votes: 7
Option 3: I say "jrive", but not "chrain"
votes: 0
Option 4: I say "chrain", but not "jrive"
votes: 2
For me, I always pronounce dr- and tr- words as jr- and chr- respectively. I've read through some threads on other boards people's answers seem to range from "what are you talking about?" to "of course I do this, doesn't everybody?". I mentioned this to my mom whose name is Tracy and she says she uses a tr- for saying her name (while I use a chr-); I find that interesting since we were both born and raised around Toronto.
For those who know the International Phonetic Alphabet, this occurence doesn't seem too far fetched. The j sound is denoted as [d͡ʒ], being a combination of the d sound [d] followed by the sound of the g in genre [ʒ]. Likewise, the ch sound is denoted as [t͡ʃ], being a combination of the t sound [t] followed by the sh sound [ʃ]. Therefore, there's a pattern of changing an alveolar stop into a palato-alveolar affricate. I would like to emphasize that I only do this before r's, so tube does not sound like chube (which sounds British to me).
Anyway, I'm curious what people's answers will be. I encourage people to actually say the words drive and train out loud before answering.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 09, 2017, 11:22:24 AM
For me, I always pronounce dr- and tr- words as jr- and chr- respectively. I've read through some threads on other boards people's answers seem to range from "what are you talking about?" to "of course I do this, doesn't everybody?". I mentioned this to my mom whose name is Tracy and she says she uses a tr- for saying her name (while I use a chr-); I find that interesting since we were both born and raised around Toronto.
For those who know the International Phonetic Alphabet, this occurence doesn't seem too far fetched. The j sound is denoted as [d͡ʒ], being a combination of the d sound [d] followed by the sound of the g in genre [ʒ]. Likewise, the ch sound is denoted as [t͡ʃ], being a combination of the t sound [t] followed by the sh sound [ʃ]. Therefore, there's a pattern of changing an alveolar stop into a palato-alveolar affricate. I would like to emphasize that I only do this before r's, so tube does not sound like chube (which sounds British to me).
Anyway, I'm curious what people's answers will be. I encourage people to actually say the words drive and train out loud before answering.
To be fair, I'm not sure a lot of people have the knowledge to tell them apart specifically. This is a really niche distinction that a lot of people, lacking the fundamentals of linguistics, will probably miss.
However, I can say for certain that, for myself, those both come out as affricates. It feels really awkward to try to pronounce /tr/ and /dr/ without the second consonant before the /r/.
This might be Yod-coalescence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_consonant_clusters#Yod-coalescence), which sounds like a C-list Lovecraft monster, but see the link.
For those picking up English as another language, sometimes similar phonemes are mapped together ("It's okay" -> "Itch okay"; "San Diego" -> "San Jego" etc.)
"Portugal" certainly sounds like "Porchagull" in a lot of American English
Quote from: kurumi on December 09, 2017, 02:53:21 PM
"Portugal" certainly sounds like "Porchagull" in a lot of American English
If you're talking about the letter T, that's the way it should be. Compare future, furniture, fortunate, pasture, statute, and creature. (All of those end in the letter E, but that shouldn't matter.)
I can't stop hearing the rogue [ʃ] after t, and now have no idea what I say. I don't Yod-coalesce though.
Also, as a glottalizer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_consonant_clusters#Glottalization), pronouncing the 't' in Portugal as a 't' is definitely something I don't do.
Thanks for the virius, I'm now messing up my dr and tr with jr and chr. I hope this doesn't last due to school.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 09, 2017, 11:22:24 AM
For me, I always pronounce dr- and tr- words as jr- and chr- respectively. I've read through some threads on other boards people's answers seem to range from "what are you talking about?" to "of course I do this, doesn't everybody?". I mentioned this to my mom whose name is Tracy and she says she uses a tr- for saying her name (while I use a chr-); I find that interesting since we were both born and raised around Toronto.
For those who know the International Phonetic Alphabet, this occurence doesn't seem too far fetched. The j sound is denoted as [d͡ʒ], being a combination of the d sound [d] followed by the sound of the g in genre [ʒ]. Likewise, the ch sound is denoted as [t͡ʃ], being a combination of the t sound [t] followed by the sh sound [ʃ]. Therefore, there's a pattern of changing an alveolar stop into a palato-alveolar affricate. I would like to emphasize that I only do this before r's, so tube does not sound like chube (which sounds British to me).
Anyway, I'm curious what people's answers will be. I encourage people to actually say the words drive and train out loud before answering.
No.
P00I
I'm about halfway between the two.
I've never really noticed the consonants to be different, it's the vowels that people speak differently.
Saying "drive" and "train" with a "dr" and "tr" sound instead of "jrive" and "chrain" as you put it makes it sound like you have a Russian accent. Nobody I've ever heard has ever said it that way.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on December 11, 2017, 03:24:21 PM
Saying "drive" and "train" with a "dr" and "tr" sound instead of "jrive" and "chrain" as you put it makes it sound like you have a Russian accent. Nobody I've ever heard has ever said it that way.
In Soviet Russia, chrain jrives you.
Doesn't chrain sound the same as train?
Quote from: kurumi on December 09, 2017, 02:53:21 PM
This might be Yod-coalescence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_consonant_clusters#Yod-coalescence), which sounds like a C-list Lovecraft monster, but see the link.
It does seem very similar to yod-coalescence except it occurs before r instead of [j]. I haven't found a proper name for what I'm talking about in this thread :-/
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on December 09, 2017, 12:14:25 PM
To be fair, I'm not sure a lot of people have the knowledge to tell them apart specifically. This is a really niche distinction that a lot of people, lacking the fundamentals of linguistics, will probably miss.
You're probably right. I asked my brother and I clearly heard him say "jrive", but he couldn't tell if he pronounces dr- like jr-.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 11, 2017, 09:53:05 PM
Doesn't chrain sound the same as train?
It does to me, but I've heard people say otherwise. I'm curious if people actually don't rhyme them, or if they just
think they don't rhyme them due to the spelling suggesting otherwise.
Quote from: kphoger on December 11, 2017, 12:54:08 PM
I'm about halfway between the two.
You might be right. Wikipedia has this entry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affricate#Voiced_postalveolar_non-sibilant_affricate), suggesting that the dr- sound is not exactly the same as a jr- sound*. But to me, I think drive and "jrive" rhyme, so I'm not sure if I'm not picking up on a subtle difference, or maybe I
do rhyme them :spin:
* The article states that the "j" sound is
sibilant while the dr- sound is
non-sibilant. I'm not sure if I'm capable of understanding this small difference.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 11, 2017, 10:24:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 11, 2017, 12:54:08 PM
I'm about halfway between the two.
You might be right. Wikipedia has this entry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affricate#Voiced_postalveolar_non-sibilant_affricate), suggesting that the dr- sound is not exactly the same as a jr- sound*. But to me, I think drive and "jrive" rhyme, so I'm not sure if I'm not picking up on a subtle difference, or maybe I do rhyme them :spin:
* The article states that the "j" sound is sibilant while the dr- sound is non-sibilant. I'm not sure if I'm capable of understanding this small difference.
They're very close, but not quite the same thing, which is probably why we think they rhyme: English doesn't make a phonemic distinction between them. Also, this might help with understanding sibilance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibilant
It has to do with the manner in which air is being forced through the mouth.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 11, 2017, 10:24:39 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 11, 2017, 12:54:08 PM
I'm about halfway between the two.
You might be right. Wikipedia has this entry (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affricate#Voiced_postalveolar_non-sibilant_affricate), suggesting that the dr- sound is not exactly the same as a jr- sound*. But to me, I think drive and "jrive" rhyme, so I'm not sure if I'm not picking up on a subtle difference, or maybe I do rhyme them :spin:
* The article states that the "j" sound is sibilant while the dr- sound is non-sibilant. I'm not sure if I'm capable of understanding this small difference.
When saying
DR, my tongue doesn't curl back as far as it does when I say
J.
For example, when I say the word HE
DGEROW, my tongue curls back quite a bit, but not nearly as much when I say
DROVE.
"Chrain" should actually sound exactly like "crane". Chr is not ch + r. Do you pronounce Christmas or chrome as beginning with the ch sound that chocolate has?
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2017, 08:53:23 AM
"Chrain" should actually sound exactly like "crane". Chr is not ch + r. Do you pronounce Christmas or chrome as beginning with the ch sound that chocolate has?
This is a fair point I didn't consider, but how else can I write the theoretical combination of a "ch" sound followed by an "r"? This also shows how confusing English spelling can be.
Quote from: 7/8 on December 13, 2017, 12:15:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 13, 2017, 08:53:23 AM
"Chrain" should actually sound exactly like "crane". Chr is not ch + r. Do you pronounce Christmas or chrome as beginning with the ch sound that chocolate has?
This is a fair point I didn't consider, but how else can I write the theoretical combination of a "ch" sound followed by an "r"? This also shows how confusing English spelling can be.
Tshr-
ch can be pronounced as /tʃ/ (chalk, cherry, church, much), /k/ (ache, choir, and stomach), /ʃ/ (charade, machine, machete and pistachio), /dʒ/ (sandwich, spinach, Greenwich and Norwich), /x/ (loch), /χ/ (challah) or even silent (yacht, Crichton).
It rivals ough for different ways to say it.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on December 11, 2017, 03:24:21 PM
Saying "drive" and "train" with a "dr" and "tr" sound instead of "jrive" and "chrain" as you put it makes it sound like you have a Russian accent. Nobody I've ever heard has ever said it that way.
Fellow Wisconsinite agrees. :)
Quote from: english si on December 13, 2017, 06:15:38 PM
/dʒ/ (sandwich, spinach, Greenwich and Norwich)
Whoa, really? I've never heard anyone pronounce "sandwich" or "Greenwich" with a /dʒ/ sound before.
Quote from: kphoger on December 14, 2017, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: english si on December 13, 2017, 06:15:38 PM
/dʒ/ (sandwich, spinach, Greenwich and Norwich)
Whoa, really? I've never heard anyone pronounce "sandwich" or "Greenwich" with a /dʒ/ sound before.
That's a British phenomenon.
Quote from: kphoger on December 14, 2017, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: english si on December 13, 2017, 06:15:38 PM
/dʒ/ (sandwich, spinach, Greenwich and Norwich)
Whoa, really? I've never heard anyone pronounce "sandwich" or "Greenwich" with a /dʒ/ sound before.
I say the first two with a /dʒ/ sound, but the last two with a /tʃ/ sound (maybe because I rarely use these words). Sandwiches (plural) with a /tʃ/ sounds weird to me.
Quote from: SectorZ on December 11, 2017, 07:42:24 PM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on December 11, 2017, 03:24:21 PM
Saying "drive" and "train" with a "dr" and "tr" sound instead of "jrive" and "chrain" as you put it makes it sound like you have a Russian accent. Nobody I've ever heard has ever said it that way.
In Soviet Russia, chrain jrives you.
:-D
Quote from: kphoger on December 14, 2017, 11:19:46 AMWhoa, really? I've never heard anyone pronounce "sandwich" or "Greenwich" with a /dʒ/ sound before.
This is why Londoners laugh at American (especially American - probably only them in fact) tourists in London thinking they know how to say stuff. Green-witch is nearly as famous as Lie-ces-ter Square.
I'm guessing Greenwich, CT is pronounced "Green-witch", unlike the place it's named after which is pronounced "Gren-ige".
Likewise, sandwich is correctly pronounced like the town on the other side of Kent to Greenwich that it is named after: "San-dwige" not "Sand-witch".
Next you'll be pronouncing Chomondley as Chom-ond-lee, not Chum-ley, as you think English pronounciation has anything to do with how words are spelt. :-D
Quote from: english si on December 14, 2017, 03:55:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on December 14, 2017, 11:19:46 AMWhoa, really? I've never heard anyone pronounce "sandwich" or "Greenwich" with a /dʒ/ sound before.
This is why Londoners laugh at American (especially American - probably only them in fact) tourists in London thinking they know how to say stuff. Green-witch is nearly as famous as Lie-ces-ter Square.
I'm guessing Greenwich, CT is pronounced "Green-witch", unlike the place it's named after which is pronounced "Gren-ige".
Likewise, sandwich is correctly pronounced like the town on the other side of Kent to Greenwich that it is named after: "San-dwige" not "Sand-witch".
Next you'll be pronouncing Chomondley as Chom-ond-lee, not Chum-ley, as you think English pronounciation has anything to do with how words are spelt. :-D
Here in Wichita, the city is split between those who pronounce a principal street through the city as "Green-witch" and those who pronounce the same street as "Grenn-itch." I know one person who says "Grenn-witch."
FWIW, our family has taken to calling Worcestershire sauce "W sauce."
Quote from: english si on December 14, 2017, 03:55:18 PM
I'm guessing Greenwich, CT is pronounced "Green-witch", unlike the place it's named after which is pronounced "Gren-ige".
Greenwich, CT is not pronounced as it looks, but it's not quite what it is in the UK (still -itch, not -ige).
Worcester, MA and Gloucester, MA are pronounced as they are in the UK. One city in Ohio had to simplify the spelling to "Wooster" so that people wouldn't mess up.
Leominster is pronounced with 3 syllables in Massachusetts, 2 in the UK, and 4 for anyone who incorrectly tries to guess based on how it looks.
Norfolk, Nebraska, is pronounced "Nor-fork." But it's named after neither England nor Virginia, rather its etymology is "North Fork."
Quote from: kphoger on December 14, 2017, 04:01:45 PMFWIW, our family has taken to calling Worcestershire sauce "W sauce."
drop the 'shire', as no one uses that bit. Wooster sauce.
Quote from: 1 on December 14, 2017, 04:03:16 PMGreenwich, CT is not pronounced as it looks, but it's not quite what it is in the UK (still -itch, not -ige).
-itch is probably more right, with -ige being my lazy effort at consonants. Certainly it's acceptable as the issue that causes the shibboleth is Green rather than Grenn and the 'w' (and stress on the beginning, not the end, hence why it drawls into -ige).