It is inaccurate and run by idiots who have agendas and don't know what they're talking about. Google Maps, sadly, is more accurate. Stay far away.
Sounds eerily similar to Wikipedia
Is there a specific thing that prompted this commentary?
Quote from: SSOWorld on January 17, 2018, 08:04:21 PM
Sounds eerily similar to Wikipedia
Wikipedia is generally reliable. Most obvious vandalism is reverted within minutes, and most inaccuracies don't stay for long, either. If you really want to see the idiots (to use a word that bugo used) on Wikipedia, visit WP:ANI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ANI).
Lemme guess...two or three folks are getting into a spat over whether the exact terminus of
State Road 793A is fifty feet fore or aft of the intersection's original alignment, and then they're taking turns rejecting or reverting each other's changes due to map printing inaccuracies?
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2018, 08:16:44 PM
Wikipedia is generally reliable. Most obvious vandalism is reverted within minutes, and most inaccuracies don't stay for long, either.
While there's probably a bot that specifically looks for and rolls back four-letter profanity, other
dreck sticks around for a while. It depends on the topic's importance, I suppose...the Wikipedia articles on a President, event, or hot-button topic is much more likely to be patrolled than
State Road 793A's C-rated discussion, which gets an live human edit every 15 months or so.
I mean, I like the idea of OSM, but I suppose it can get very bureaucratic to the point of each embattled user wanting each little thing just their way. I know, I once mucked about on WikiMapia.
It's over the name of a road.
Quote from: bugo on January 17, 2018, 09:18:53 PM
It's over the name of a road.
It's about the Creek Turnpike, which keeps having its name changed to Liberty Memorial Parkway.
Quote from: roadguy2 on January 17, 2018, 09:31:36 PM
Quote from: bugo on January 17, 2018, 09:18:53 PM
It's over the name of a road.
It's about the Creek Turnpike, which keeps having its name changed to Liberty Memorial Parkway.
I would suggest to the people involved in this war to contact the DWG about it.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_working_group#Contacts_in_case_of_problems
This is IMO the best option for a solution here.
Quote from: formulanone on January 17, 2018, 08:55:15 PM
While there's probably a bot that specifically looks for and rolls back four-letter profanity, other dreck sticks around for a while. It depends on the topic's importance, I suppose...the Wikipedia articles on a President, event, or hot-button topic is much more likely to be patrolled than State Road 793A's C-rated discussion, which gets an live human edit every 15 months or so.
Other way 'round, actually–state highway articles are watched closely by a group of roadgeeks called USRD (many of which also post here). They're good guys who take a lot of pride in their work and are extremely thorough. Take a look at any Michigan road article and note how meticulous the sourcing is. Although the USRD guys can't be everywhere–less populous states and especially the Southern states have less-developed articles–in most cases bad stuff gets caught and backed out. Roads have the inherent property that it's fairly easy to know who's spouting BS, since in a lot of cases you can refer to DOT documents or maps to resolve factual issues (or even ask the DOT to weigh in if you want to go that far). This is something that you don't have the luxury of on "squishy" topics that people have opinions of, like Israel—Palestine or the President.
In my experience, the worst fights on road-related articles occur when some non-roadgeeks stumble into the roads area and start ham-handedly starting to "improve" things over the better judgement of the people that actually know the material. Then things can escalate to the level of the "Wikipedia supreme court" and it's just a huge waste of everyone's time.
The problem that most wikis have is that often the winner of a fight is not the one who's right, but the one who has more time to kill defending their position. Knowing the process and the right people to get involved can help resolve issues more quickly, but if someone wants to stonewall and keep beating the horse while you have to go to work, sleep, etc. it's unfortunately likely that they'll carry the day. After a day of work, it's hard to summon the energy to want to bring forth "evidence" against someone who is bound and determined to be wrong.
Quote from: roadguy2 on January 17, 2018, 09:31:36 PM
Quote from: bugo on January 17, 2018, 09:18:53 PM
It's over the name of a road.
It's about the Creek Turnpike, which keeps having its name changed to Liberty Memorial Parkway.
Really, that's what they renamed (http://www.oklegislature.gov/cf_pdf/2003-04%20COMMITTEE%20SUBS/scs/sb350%20cs.pdf) a portion of it?
Don't we have enough smugly patriotic route names, or do politicians just need to score a few easy points after a rough week of fundraising?
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 17, 2018, 10:41:58 PM
Quote from: formulanone on January 17, 2018, 08:55:15 PM
While there's probably a bot that specifically looks for and rolls back four-letter profanity, other dreck sticks around for a while. It depends on the topic's importance, I suppose...the Wikipedia articles on a President, event, or hot-button topic is much more likely to be patrolled than State Road 793A's C-rated discussion, which gets an live human edit every 15 months or so.
Other way 'round, actually—state highway articles are watched closely by a group of roadgeeks called USRD (many of which also post here). They're good guys who take a lot of pride in their work and are extremely thorough.
I won't argue that. It's more of an occasional-to-rare observation than anything else. Most road articles are pretty well written, though perfection is always going to be tough (or impossible/undesirable) to attain. Some articles could use more meat, and there's a handful which get a bit lengthy...do we need to know every "major" intersection on US Route 20? And that's what's great about Wikipedia, the enthusiasts will likely create and further the support for their interest, and hopefully they'll agree on some reoccurring issues about this-and-that should be laid out, article conformity, continuity from one to the next, et cetera.
At one point, I enjoyed creating and editing articles on F1 cars because it's pretty much all results-driven (eh, pardon the pun). It's hard to fake a result that there's no record of, or a measurement that contravenes the rules. I just don't really have the time and desire for it.
I upload some sign photos when the interest arises...it's easy stuff that's largely unobtrusive, and I don't have to deal with the background politics of it all. On the other hand, letting Flickr Bot vacuum them up is far easier. :)
Quote from: formulanone on January 17, 2018, 10:42:17 PM
Quote from: roadguy2 on January 17, 2018, 09:31:36 PM
Quote from: bugo on January 17, 2018, 09:18:53 PM
It's over the name of a road.
It's about the Creek Turnpike, which keeps having its name changed to Liberty Memorial Parkway.
Really, that's what they renamed (http://www.oklegislature.gov/cf_pdf/2003-04%20COMMITTEE%20SUBS/scs/sb350%20cs.pdf) a portion of it?
Don't we have enough smugly patriotic route names, or do politicians just need to score a few easy points after a rough week of fundraising?
It gets worse–the Oklahoma Legislature named a segment of I-40 in Del City and Midwest City the "Freedom Freeway". Yes, this leads from OKC to Tinker Air Force Base, but still...can you possibly come up with a more mid-2000s name? (It already had a name anyway–the Tinker Diagonal.)
Liberty Memorial Parkway...doesn't "Memorial" usually mean that the thing was named after something that died?
The best (worst?) part of this besides that it makes OSM useless is that it's not the Liberty Memorial Parkway - it's just Liberty Parkway. The source Uriza keeps citing is the draft of a bill that was later modified.
At least in my area, OSM seems extremely accurate.
However, I do see how, if things get put in the wrong hands, some places could be in for quite a rollercoaster ride. Things like Open Street Map and Wikipedia have many pros and many cons. The pros are that some very knowledgeable and competent people, and in our case, possible that even some roadgeeks would be more suited at keying in the correct information than some professionals, that could make a lot of the system accurate. However, on the other side, there could be less informed people that start to make the system more inaccurate. That's the beauty of the freedom of these kinds of sites, that there is some good and there is some bad. I will still use OSM, but I do understand what sounds like a severe annoyance at times, if there are some non-roadgeeks who might be arrogant, not know what they're talking about, but they're trying to change the system. It does sound like a mess, but hopefully it will get worked out. :nod:
Quote from: formulanone on January 17, 2018, 10:42:17 PM
Really, that's what they renamed (http://www.oklegislature.gov/cf_pdf/2003-04%20COMMITTEE%20SUBS/scs/sb350%20cs.pdf) a portion of it?
It's an honorary, tertiary name. It is not the name of the road. I have provided tons of evidence that the official name of the highway is "Creek Turnpike" but that jackass Baboon keeps changing it. I don't know if he's a dedicated troll or if he really believes that he is right.
Here is some photographic evidence (I have some other evidence besides this):
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5350/16990658303_7c50f55857_z.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7709/17611126035_035a1d92d6_z.jpg)
This picture is on the MAINLINE, despite the person in question claiming that there are no "Creek Turnpike" signs on the mainline:
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8898/17423431070_14649d31ce_z.jpg)
His evidence is two signs (that are clearly meant to indicate an honorific name) and a mention deep within a PDF file online.
There is no mention of a "Liberty Parkway" or a "Liberty Memorial Parkway" (When did liberty die? November 8, 2016?) on either the ODOT or the OTA websites.
The only mentions of "Liberty Memorial Parkway" on Google that refer to anything in Oklahoma are posts from this forum courtesy of the person in question, a link or two to OSM also courtesy of the same person, "cartogiraffe.com" which gets its data from OSM and a PDF file from a bill that was never passed. Only part of the highway has the honorific name "Liberty Parkway" and no road ever in the history of Google has been named "Liberty Memorial Parkway (which is one of the stupidest names I've ever heard.) Clearly, he is in the wrong.
Need any more evidence? I'm prepared to drive to BA and take pictures of every single sign on and pointing to the turnpike if need be. I shouldn't make such a big deal about this but this guy rubbed me the wrong way and I know that I'm right.
I've had some trouble with Paul in the past, regarding SR-500 in Vancouver, Washington. I can't quite recall what the problem was, but I seem to recall a disagreement over the designation of the highway being freeway or expressway. Paul spent a lot of time in Portland back in the day, so he gets pretty defense down there. I remember pointing to some rather hefty sources (WSDOT website, street view links) but I still couldn't change his mind.
The way SR-500 is laid out on OSM right now (freeway designation despite a couple signals) is how I prefer it. So I can't remember if him or I "won", or if a third-party stepped in to make the final call. But I was less than impressed with him at the time. Baloo and I still have more than a few disagreements on this forum, but I generally found peace by staying away from OSM editing from that point on.
EDIT: I did manage to find my edit history. Paul claimed that SR-500 in Vancouver, Washington was a trunk road. WSDOT considered it to be a freeway, so OSM was modified to show highway=motorway. However, he kept changing it to highway=trunk + construction=motorway, and claimed that it should be a trunk because there wasn't enough interchanges/too many signals to qualify as "motorway". Basically, he just made up his own definition. Our own Bickenden and rickmastfan shut him up. As far as I can tell, he will go to the ends of the earth to prove his point.
I wonder why he's so bent on not having it labeled as the Creek Turnpike. The evidence you're providing makes it seem obvious that that's what it is. Also, I am not the most informed on roads in Oklahoma (compared to my own neck of the woods), but Creek Turnpike sounds a hell of a lot more familiar to me than Liberty Memorial Parkway. I've never, ever heard of the latter, but the former I would probably recognize instantly, with its name, if I saw it on a map.
Very strange indeed. :hmm:
Quote from: bugo on January 18, 2018, 01:58:21 AM
Quote from: formulanone on January 17, 2018, 10:42:17 PM
Really, that's what they renamed (http://www.oklegislature.gov/cf_pdf/2003-04%20COMMITTEE%20SUBS/scs/sb350%20cs.pdf) a portion of it?
It's an honorary, tertiary name. It is not the name of the road. I have provided tons of evidence that the official name of the highway is "Creek Turnpike" but that jackass Baboon keeps changing it. I don't know if he's a dedicated troll or if he really believes that he is right.
"Renamed" wasn't a good word choice of mine - every sign I've ever seen in my visits to the area said Creek Turnpike. It's one of those "dedicated portion" sections of highway. Maybe petitioning for
tertiary naming controls in OSM? (But how useful is that?)
Alabama does this for fallen officers, decorated soldiers, those lost in battle, sports personalities, politicians, et cetera. And I know they're not the only ones.
Florida does this too, but takes it a step further in some places like Miami-Dade County by dedicating nearly every street block or mile.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8884/28376936132_07dc18ff73_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Kezdtw)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8503/28718157825_a595e6c6aa_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KKJ4Na)
Quote from: corco on January 17, 2018, 10:55:22 PM
it's not the Liberty Memorial Parkway - it's just Liberty Parkway. The source Uriza keeps citing is the draft of a bill that was later modified.
I hate to admit it, but this made me smile. If that's not proof of original sin, I don't know what is.
Quote from: formulanone on January 18, 2018, 08:06:57 AM
Florida does this too, but takes it a step further in some places like Miami-Dade County by dedicating nearly every street block or mile.
Oh, great, now you've started it!
Quote from: bugo on January 17, 2018, 07:43:54 PM
It is inaccurate and run by idiots who have agendas and don't know what they're talking about. Google Maps, sadly, is more accurate. Stay far away.
French-Croatian squid (Chinese: 法克鱿
Fǎ Kè Yóu). I consider OSM to be more reliable than Google Maps, which has still to update some road designations in my area that changed a few
years ago.
Quote from: formulanone on January 18, 2018, 08:06:57 AM
Florida does this too, but takes it a step further in some places like Miami-Dade County by dedicating nearly every street block or mile.
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8884/28376936132_07dc18ff73_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Kezdtw)
If signs are consistently like that, name=Northwest 27th Avenue/Unity Boulevard seems logical. But not that honorary shit underneath.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 18, 2018, 02:45:43 AM
I've had some trouble with Paul in the past, regarding SR-500 in Vancouver, Washington. I can't quite recall what the problem was, but I seem to recall a disagreement over the designation of the highway being freeway or expressway. Paul spent a lot of time in Portland back in the day, so he gets pretty defense down there. I remember pointing to some rather hefty sources (WSDOT website, street view links) but I still couldn't change his mind.
The way SR-500 is laid out on OSM right now (freeway designation despite a couple signals) is how I prefer it. So I can't remember if him or I "won", or if a third-party stepped in to make the final call. But I was less than impressed with him at the time. Baloo and I still have more than a few disagreements on this forum, but I generally found peace by staying away from OSM editing from that point on.
EDIT: I did manage to find my edit history. Paul claimed that SR-500 in Vancouver, Washington was a trunk road. WSDOT considered it to be a freeway, so OSM was modified to show highway=motorway. However, he kept changing it to highway=trunk + construction=motorway, and claimed that it should be a trunk because there wasn't enough interchanges/too many signals to qualify as "motorway". Basically, he just made up his own definition. Our own Bickenden and rickmastfan shut him up. As far as I can tell, he will go to the ends of the earth to prove his point.
I was thinking of this exact situation.
WA 500 was designated as a trunk in OSM at the time, I drove the route to field verify, changed it, and the edit war started. Went back, took photos to back up my case, griped about it in the other OSM thread in here. WA 500 is still marked correctly in OSM.
My edits to the freeway portions of OR 18 and 22 (near Rickreal) have since reverted, but I'm not going to die on that hill, so to speak.
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2018, 08:16:44 PM
Wikipedia is generally reliable. Most obvious vandalism is reverted within minutes, and most inaccuracies don't stay for long, either. If you really want to see the idiots (to use a word that bugo used) on Wikipedia, visit WP:ANI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ANI).
Most legitimate edits are reverted within minutes too. The facts don't stand a chance on Wikipedia anymore, because some screamy little baby with a political agenda always reverts them.
OSM is not always accurate. The abusive liars who ran my former high school used OSM to change the name of the roadway in front of the school to Avenue of Champions. But I changed it to Avenue of Losers, and it wasn't changed back for 5 years.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 06:00:00 PM
OSM is not always accurate. The abusive liars who ran my former high school used OSM to change the name of the roadway in front of the school to Avenue of Champions. But I changed it to Avenue of Losers, and it wasn't changed back for 5 years.
Wow, they sound like a bunch of losers if they would lie and change the name of a road on an official site just to make themselves look better. :eyebrow: :thumbdown:
Good for you!! :clap: :thumbsup:
But thankfully, I don't think stuff like that happens all the time, even on OSM. But when it does, it can be quite the annoyance.
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on January 18, 2018, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 06:00:00 PM
OSM is not always accurate. The abusive liars who ran my former high school used OSM to change the name of the roadway in front of the school to Avenue of Champions. But I changed it to Avenue of Losers, and it wasn't changed back for 5 years.
Wow, they sound like a bunch of losers if they would lie and change the name of a road on an official site just to make themselves look better. :eyebrow: :thumbdown:
It's apparently the correct name:
(https://snag.gy/eVSCo8.jpg)
Though the Goog doesn't show that it's signed, so I'm not sure if it belongs on maps.
Quote from: NE2 on January 18, 2018, 06:58:14 PM
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on January 18, 2018, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 06:00:00 PM
OSM is not always accurate. The abusive liars who ran my former high school used OSM to change the name of the roadway in front of the school to Avenue of Champions. But I changed it to Avenue of Losers, and it wasn't changed back for 5 years.
Wow, they sound like a bunch of losers if they would lie and change the name of a road on an official site just to make themselves look better. :eyebrow: :thumbdown:
It's apparently the correct name:
(https://snag.gy/eVSCo8.jpg)
Though the Goog doesn't show that it's signed, so I'm not sure if it belongs on maps.
It's actually not the correct name. This is like that town in upstate New York that a mapmaker made up as a copyright trap, and then everyone started copying it. I can't find any action taken by the city that gives the road this name. Also, the map cited here isn't always correct (though it's usually pretty accurate for most things).
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 07:46:50 PM
that town in upstate New York that a mapmaker made up as a copyright trap, and then everyone started copying it
It became real after it was fictitiously created.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agloe,_New_York (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agloe,_New_York)
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 07:46:50 PM
Quote from: NE2 on January 18, 2018, 06:58:14 PM
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on January 18, 2018, 06:03:14 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 06:00:00 PM
OSM is not always accurate. The abusive liars who ran my former high school used OSM to change the name of the roadway in front of the school to Avenue of Champions. But I changed it to Avenue of Losers, and it wasn't changed back for 5 years.
Wow, they sound like a bunch of losers if they would lie and change the name of a road on an official site just to make themselves look better. :eyebrow: :thumbdown:
It's apparently the correct name:
(https://snag.gy/eVSCo8.jpg)
Though the Goog doesn't show that it's signed, so I'm not sure if it belongs on maps.
It's actually not the correct name.
http://maps.kytc.ky.gov/photolog/?config=TrafficCounts
Zoom in and you'll see it listed on this official map.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 19, 2018, 10:16:59 AM
http://maps.kytc.ky.gov/photolog/?config=TrafficCounts
Zoom in and you'll see it listed on this official map.
This is an Agloe-type situation, only worse. There is no municipal resolution to name this road. School thugs just decided to mark it on OSM one day, and everyone else copied it.
All of this highlights the fact that this school is indeed losers.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 19, 2018, 04:59:57 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 19, 2018, 10:16:59 AM
http://maps.kytc.ky.gov/photolog/?config=TrafficCounts
Zoom in and you'll see it listed on this official map.
This is an Agloe-type situation, only worse. There is no municipal resolution to name this road. School thugs just decided to mark it on OSM one day, and everyone else copied it.
All of this highlights the fact that this school is indeed losers.
It's a high school.
You're 44.
Do the math.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 05:54:27 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2018, 08:16:44 PM
Wikipedia is generally reliable. Most obvious vandalism is reverted within minutes, and most inaccuracies don't stay for long, either. If you really want to see the idiots (to use a word that bugo used) on Wikipedia, visit WP:ANI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ANI).
Most legitimate edits are reverted within minutes too. The facts don't stand a chance on Wikipedia anymore, because some screamy little baby with a political agenda always reverts them.
What the hell are you talking about?
Quote from: OrangeLantern on January 19, 2018, 06:47:04 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on January 18, 2018, 05:54:27 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2018, 08:16:44 PM
Wikipedia is generally reliable. Most obvious vandalism is reverted within minutes, and most inaccuracies don't stay for long, either. If you really want to see the idiots (to use a word that bugo used) on Wikipedia, visit WP:ANI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ANI).
Most legitimate edits are reverted within minutes too. The facts don't stand a chance on Wikipedia anymore, because some screamy little baby with a political agenda always reverts them.
What the hell are you talking about?
I see you've met Bandit.
Quote from: bandit957 on January 19, 2018, 04:59:57 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on January 19, 2018, 10:16:59 AM
http://maps.kytc.ky.gov/photolog/?config=TrafficCounts
Zoom in and you'll see it listed on this official map.
This is an Agloe-type situation, only worse. There is no municipal resolution to name this road. School thugs just decided to mark it on OSM one day, and everyone else copied it.
Rest assured that the Commonwealth of Kentucky does NOT copy OSM in its mapping.
As an OSM mapper myself, I can see why people won't use the map:
-TIGER import from 2007 that is super unreliable
-GNIS imports that includes places that don't exist
-editing wars (street name ambiguity, road classification mishandled, etc.)
-fake parks
-editing noobs that don't research on GIS, DOT, and local government websites
-lack of moderation of edits
But, some applications do use OSM such as weather.com, SnapChat's map, Scout GPS, etc.
Quote from: UAN51 on January 26, 2018, 10:30:05 AM
As an OSM mapper myself, I can see why people won't use the map:
-TIGER import from 2007 that is super unreliable
-GNIS imports that includes places that don't exist
-editing wars (street name ambiguity, road classification mishandled, etc.)
-fake parks
-editing noobs that don't research on GIS, DOT, and local government websites
-lack of moderation of edits
But, some applications do use OSM such as weather.com, SnapChat's map, Scout GPS, etc.
Is there something I am missing without using OSM? Like, what's better about it than Google? Is it the frequency of the updates? But, with all of the points you made, those aren't exactly GOOD selling points.
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on January 26, 2018, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: UAN51 on January 26, 2018, 10:30:05 AM
As an OSM mapper myself, I can see why people won't use the map:
-TIGER import from 2007 that is super unreliable
-GNIS imports that includes places that don't exist
-editing wars (street name ambiguity, road classification mishandled, etc.)
-fake parks
-editing noobs that don't research on GIS, DOT, and local government websites
-lack of moderation of edits
But, some applications do use OSM such as weather.com, SnapChat's map, Scout GPS, etc.
Is there something I am missing without using OSM? Like, what's better about it than Google? Is it the frequency of the updates? But, with all of the points you made, those aren't exactly GOOD selling points.
Largely the fact that the data isn't proprietary, as opposed to pretty much every other commercial mapping service. The Google Maps API is only free to use until you've reached a certain request limit, and is fairly expensive otherwise. OSM, on the other hand is free and (mostly) free of licensing restrictions (as long as you supply your own hosting).
Quote from: TheArkansasRoadgeek on January 26, 2018, 11:36:56 AM
Quote from: UAN51 on January 26, 2018, 10:30:05 AM
As an OSM mapper myself, I can see why people won't use the map:
-TIGER import from 2007 that is super unreliable
-GNIS imports that includes places that don't exist
-editing wars (street name ambiguity, road classification mishandled, etc.)
-fake parks
-editing noobs that don't research on GIS, DOT, and local government websites
-lack of moderation of edits
But, some applications do use OSM such as weather.com, SnapChat's map, Scout GPS, etc.
Is there something I am missing without using OSM? Like, what's better about it than Google? Is it the frequency of the updates? But, with all of the points you made, those aren't exactly GOOD selling points.
I'm not saying why OSM is good. I'm saying why I see people do NOT use OSM.