AARoads Forum

National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM

Title: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM
I know that we've touched on this topic in a few other discussions, but I wanted to open this up for discussion in itself.  What, if any, standards are out there for how (and when) to use a state abbreviation after a city name on a guide sign?  This can be either as a control city, or just on a secondary guide sign.  When should it be used...when shouldn't it?  What do you prefer from a formatting standpoint?  I've noticed some oddities across the states....thought I'd post some pictures of these variations and open it up for discussion.

1) All-Caps Two-Character Postal Code with a Trailing Period

I-70 east in Indianapolis...abbreviates Ohio as 'OH' with a following period '.'.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dWqEy09nI%2FAAAAAAAABAQ%2F2-EfickRW34%2Fs912%2FIMG_6096.JPG&hash=7f935742a8a198acb69c03e9065ac6ec52fb2594)

2) All-Caps Two-Character Postal Code without a Trailing Period

Newer Ohio BGS on I-71 north in the Cleveland area...abbreviates Pennsylvania as 'PA'
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dX_qN5fbI%2FAAAAAAAABAs%2F63ulRIoJfcM%2Fs640%2FIMG_1401.JPG&hash=9d237b15434dbfc284b58108be487646088b14f1)

West Virginia sign on I-77 north near Silverton...abbreviates Ohio as 'OH'
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dX_SwexJI%2FAAAAAAAABAo%2FOGntUsqJPPA%2Fs512%2FIMG_1166.JPG&hash=2ac5815c812f54483a32840af0ad430f2a3fd5d8)

3) Two-Character Postal Code without a Trailing Period and first character is capitalized

Older Ohio BGS on I-480 in the Cleveland area...abbreviates Pennsylvania as 'Pa'
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dYAExKLII%2FAAAAAAAABAw%2F1ws5Gc62MrU%2Fs912%2FIMG_1430.JPG&hash=af0e1a2ed14e42f05f7ca4752ac9199091e5f6ea)

Newer Pennsylvania BGS on I-79 north in the Washington PA area...chooses to put 'Pa' after the city in their own state
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dTAgDUgtI%2FAAAAAAAABAA%2Fq17_vUbEj6c%2Fs800%2FIMG_3294.JPG&hash=a3ef704472da74a065a3350036adfa2caf16490b)

4) Non-Standard State Abbreviations

BGS in West Virginia on US-35 uses old-style postal code to abbreviate Ohio as 'O.' (I think this one's cool)  :sombrero:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dSDHwbUmI%2FAAAAAAAAA_k%2FERx9AgdPKxc%2Fs640%2FIMG_2853.JPG&hash=56b43a2e2e89d29acf600d8d6407a42d05ba4e37)

Arkansas BGS on I-40/I-55 abbreviates Mississippi as 'Miss.' (and uses non-matching shields...arrgghh)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dX-0IdkFI%2FAAAAAAAABAg%2Fsoae2zoyiWk%2Fs912%2FIMG_0976.JPG&hash=c25c506675eb3afd25ede7b8400547575cf79a38)

Virginia BGS on I-81S/I-77N abbreviates West Virginia as 'W.Va.'
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dX_NWntYI%2FAAAAAAAABAk%2FUXVX__i7SEs%2Fs640%2FIMG_1073.JPG&hash=6104dca4e043b95aa1e44f5a2173a311e959e2d4)

5) No Abbreviation at All....when you really think there should be...

Ohio BGS on I-70 east near Buckeye Lake doesn't abbreviate Wheeling as 'WV' or Pittsburgh as 'PA' even though both cities are in other states.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh5.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dSDCD5YFI%2FAAAAAAAAA_g%2F_evOtIgj91Q%2Fs512%2FIMG_0359.jpg&hash=2ce5ddd5f826b86504eddd3d0e41cbb5c3e8e0f7)



Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Truvelo on January 08, 2010, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM
Newer Pennsylvania BGS on I-79 north in the Washington PA area...chooses to put 'Pa' after the city in their own state

That's probably to avoid confusion with Washington DC
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 12:13:28 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on January 08, 2010, 12:11:27 PM
That's probably to avoid confusion with Washington DC

Good point, or they could just name it 'Lil' Washington' as the locals refer to it :)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Jim on January 08, 2010, 12:30:33 PM
Most places in New York, at least on Interstates where standard control cities are specified, an out-of-state (or even Canadian) control city does not include a state name or abbreviation.  In the Albany area, we have plenty of "Boston" and "Montreal".  In NYC, there are plenty of "New Haven" and "Trenton".  And new signs on I-87 at Exit 17 have "Scranton" for I-84.  I have pictures still on my camera of those, hope to have them up before too long.

One exception I can recall from I-86 near Jamestown.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teresco.org%2Fpics%2Fsigns%2F20010606%2Fi86-ny430.jpg&hash=5218eb2c938c727a7d47a489a61a913f25bcef3a)

All of the "Erie" references on the Thruway that I can recall do not specify the state.

I have also usually seen simply "Pittsfield" and "Bennington" on the state and US highways that connect to those.  
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: corco on January 08, 2010, 12:37:28 PM
Wyoming tends to call Salt Lake by "Salt Lake" and Denver as "Denver," and Sidney as "SidneY" [sic], and Omaha as "Omaha" and Billings as "Billings" from freeway gantries, but one mileage signs you get "Kimball Nebr" "Greeley Colo." "Sidney Nebr", generally without the period

Smaller cities, state is listed pre-1987 abbreviations with no period, like so.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2Fwy%2Fus14%2F90sheridanto339%2F4.jpg&hash=562a8c30bcea076c4a73a6321c813b7224ac28f9)

Wyoming's pretty consistent like that
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 12:39:59 PM
Quote from: corco on January 08, 2010, 12:37:28 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2Fwy%2Fus14%2F90sheridanto339%2F4.jpg&hash=562a8c30bcea076c4a73a6321c813b7224ac28f9)
Wyoming's pretty consistent like that

That's pretty interesting.  If I saw that sign with 'Decker Mont' I'm not sure that I would know that's referring to Montana.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Bryant5493 on January 08, 2010, 12:50:39 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM

1) All-Caps Two-Character Postal Code with a Trailing Period

I-70 east in Indianapolis...abbreviates Ohio as 'OH' with a following period '.'.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dWqEy09nI%2FAAAAAAAABAQ%2F2-EfickRW34%2Fs912%2FIMG_6096.JPG&hash=7f935742a8a198acb69c03e9065ac6ec52fb2594)

I'd prefer that without the period at the end.

Quote from: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM

4) Non-Standard State Abbreviations

BGS in West Virginia on US-35 uses old-style postal code to abbreviate Ohio as 'O.' (I think this one's cool)  :sombrero:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh3.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dSDHwbUmI%2FAAAAAAAAA_k%2FERx9AgdPKxc%2Fs640%2FIMG_2853.JPG&hash=56b43a2e2e89d29acf600d8d6407a42d05ba4e37)

That's an instant fail.

----

In Georgia, I don't think I've seen the state added to an out-of-state destination. Just the "first name," if you will, is used.


Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: rawmustard on January 08, 2010, 01:08:34 PM
Michigan for the most part doesn't abbreviate outside states on its freeway signs, because most likely it's understood that Chicago, Indianapolis, Fort Wayne, and Toledo refer to places outside Michigan. State abbreviations are more apt to appear on non-freeway signs, although having the Great Lakes around the state greatly reduce the number of instances where an outside state's destination could be listed.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Truvelo on January 08, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
Perhaps there should be some standardisation in signing places across state lines like this example from Eastern Europe. Cities in other countries have the country code in an oval next to the name.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsabre-roads.org.uk%2Fgallery%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10163%2Fnormal_slo10.jpg&hash=5c96a82591c5ee8f9d2d512f5e08289ffbf40124)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: tdindy88 on January 08, 2010, 02:11:58 PM
Speaking of Indiana, I believe there is a sign or two in the same area that refers to Columbus as "Columbus O." Of course the Ohio designation is needed so that Columbus isn't confused with Columbus, Indiana. Elsewhere in the state, I've seen Kentucky abreviated as "Ky.", Illinois as "Ill." and Michigan as "MI."
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Duke87 on January 08, 2010, 02:41:08 PM
Quote from: Jim on January 08, 2010, 12:30:33 PM
Most places in New York, at least on Interstates where standard control cities are specified, an out-of-state (or even Canadian) control city does not include a state name or abbreviation.  In the Albany area, we have plenty of "Boston" and "Montreal".  In NYC, there are plenty of "New Haven" and "Trenton".  

Installed just a couple months ago:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg18.imageshack.us%2Fimg18%2F4614%2Fdscn6057b.jpg&hash=234e480212b399ffd75f799ff1aa5dbc057b8dbf)


Personally, I prefer the postal abbreviation to any other methodology (e.g., "CT", not "Conn."). Two capital letters like that make it immediately obvious you're naming a state. Other abbreviations do not. Also, don't omit the comma please.

That said, I would not put any such suffix in cases where the city is major enough that most people know what state it's in. The "CT" on this sign is utterly unnecessary. Everyone going under it knows that New Haven is in Connecticut.


Also, couple corrections here:
Quote from: shoptb1Newer Ohio BGS on I-271 north in the Cleveland area...abbreviates Pennsylvania as 'PA'
This is on I-71 north, not 271.
Quote from: shoptb1Older Ohio BGS on I-271 north in the Cleveland area...abbreviates Pennsylvania as 'Pa'
And this one's on 480 east.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: myosh_tino on January 08, 2010, 02:48:06 PM
AFAIK, California doesn't add state abbreviations to it's guide signs.  From memory (with some help from the AARoads gallery) here is a partial list of out-of-state cities shown on California guide signs...

I-80: Reno
I-15: Las Vegas
I-5: Portland
US 97: Klamath Falls

In all cases, only the city is listed (no abbreviations).
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Ian on January 08, 2010, 03:08:54 PM
Delaware normally doesn't and I am pretty sure Pennsylvania doesn't either. Though, "New Jersey" appears as a control city for I-276 and the Philadelphia area bridge approaches. New Jersey, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, and Maine do.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Mr_Northside on January 08, 2010, 03:41:28 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on January 08, 2010, 03:08:54 PM
I am pretty sure Pennsylvania doesn't either. Though, "New Jersey" appears as a control city for I-276 and the Philadelphia area bridge approaches.

There are some occasions that the PA-TPK does. (I know at New Stanton, Wheeling has WV attached)
I also recall an axillary guide sign approaching Bedford for "Cumberland Maryland".

I wouldn't be surprised if PennDOT has some around too.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: roadfro on January 08, 2010, 04:50:56 PM
Re: option 4:  Abbreviations like "Miss." and "W.Va." are standard abbreviations in the Associated Press Stylebook frequently used by news outlets--these can sometimes be more easily recognized than some of the more cryptic postal abbreviations.

Generally, state names are not really necessary to use with a control city. The only time they're really needed is if there needs to be some disambiguating factor so that a control city is not confused for a similarly-named city nearby, as in the Washington PA mentioned above. 

When a state abbreviation is used, I feel it should either be the state's postal abbreviation (without a period) or the AP abbreviation (with a period) should be used. I also think that there should always be a comma between city and state if a state abbreviation is used--although the use of a comma is discouraged by the MUTCD.


For the record, Nevada doesn't use state abbreviations either--at least not on major freeway signs.  Most of the control cities used are fairly self explanatory: Los Angeles, Salt Lake City (sometimes just "Salt Lake"), Sacramento, Phoenix.

Even on many of the non-freeway signs I've seen, there are no state abbreviations: South Lake Tahoe, Bishop (CA); Adel, Lakeview (OR); Boise, Pocatello (ID); and so forth.  Again, these are fairly recognizable and aren't apt to be mistaken for a town in Nevada--cause there's few (if any) place names in Nevada that are close enough to similar names in other states that would be confusing.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Revive 755 on January 08, 2010, 05:25:38 PM
Here's one on I-64 in Illinois that uses the postal code to distinguish Nashville, IL from Nashville, TN:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.392111,-89.377749&spn=0,359.972534&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.392069,-89.377373&panoid=EndYk67_ry4RLYjK8w0Y1A&cbp=12,150.58,,0,12.1 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.392111,-89.377749&spn=0,359.972534&t=h&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.392069,-89.377373&panoid=EndYk67_ry4RLYjK8w0Y1A&cbp=12,150.58,,0,12.1)

At least one sign on I-74 uses the first three letters of the state:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.942844,-86.61973&spn=0,359.972534&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.942757,-86.619739&panoid=31_FnZgicLaaGamxYBJMGw&cbp=12,29.48,,0,-25.3 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=39.942844,-86.61973&spn=0,359.972534&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.942757,-86.619739&panoid=31_FnZgicLaaGamxYBJMGw&cbp=12,29.48,,0,-25.3)

Missouri using MO on NB I-270:
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.538666,-90.415978&spn=0,359.945068&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.538748,-90.416077&panoid=AGlNk2roYt4TV3xd9nKUZw&cbp=12,336.13,,0,4.16 (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=38.538666,-90.415978&spn=0,359.945068&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.538748,-90.416077&panoid=AGlNk2roYt4TV3xd9nKUZw&cbp=12,336.13,,0,4.16)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: mightyace on January 08, 2010, 05:47:00 PM
Again, the infamous New York City via PENNA on I-76 EB near the Ohio Turnpike number switch with I-80.  "PENNA" or "Penna." is an old abbreviation for Pennsylvania and also shows up on the Turnpike Shield.

(https://www.aaroads.com/midwest/ohio/i-076_eb_at_i-080.jpg)
from AARoads

IIRC That sign or a similar replacement was still there just before Christmas.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: J N Winkler on January 08, 2010, 05:59:55 PM
Kansas DOT practice, which AFAIK has not been codified as policy, is to use the traditional abbreviation for the other state, rendered in all caps at a smaller letter height, and centered vertically on the name of the city in the other state (in other words, the state abbreviation and the name of that state's city do not share a common baseline).  This fictional sign shows an example:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sabre-roads.org.uk%2Fgallery%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10050%2Fus-81-york-experiment-with-state-name-in-all-uc.png&hash=b89bb74059d93002f500d29e1e26dba7d579e8ab)

Personally, I think the use of sentence punctuation (including commas and periods) on signs should be avoided wherever practicable, and spaces (even if of half width) should be used instead.  I also dislike two-letter postal abbreviations (except when they coincide with traditional abbreviations), even at reduced letter height.  For reasons of message loading, other states should normally be identified only when there is a genuine risk of confusion with cities in the same state or with larger, more well-known cities, or when there is some other reason motorists would find it useful to know that a city is in a different state or even a different country.

FWIW, in actuality Kansas DOT doesn't sign "York  NEB," although northbound US 81 has signs giving the distance to "Chester  NEB" and "Hebron  NEB."  These are in the vicinity of Belleville (near the Nebraska state line) and I don't think the state line is otherwise signed.

In El Paso, TxDOT used to sign "Juarez" in button copy but has now changed over to "Juárez, México" in Clearview with accented characters and comma.  Since I don't think there is anyone likely to drive in that area who doesn't know Ciudad Juárez is in Mexico, I think "México" is unnecessary.  The accent over the e, though correct, also looks pedantic and rather precious.  (Mexican signs don't have accented "MEXICO" although they get away with this by the grammatical convention that capitalized words in Spanish do not require accents.)  If I wanted to look sophisticated, I'd probably go for a synthesis of the old and new ways--"Cd Juárez" (using the Spanish abbreviation for "city") or, where required for brevity, just "Juárez"--in Clearview.

In Washington State, WSDOT has an eccentric convention where the Canadian province to the north is concerned.  BC must appear on signs with periods:  "B.C."  If a city in BC is named, additional space (to imply a comma) must be provided between the name of that city and "B.C."  BC is the only place or geographical region for which periods are required.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: WillWeaverRVA on January 08, 2010, 08:06:47 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on January 08, 2010, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM
Newer Pennsylvania BGS on I-79 north in the Washington PA area...chooses to put 'Pa' after the city in their own state

That's probably to avoid confusion with Washington DC

Most likely. Washington, VA (which is also referred to as Little Washington, like the one in PA) is signed "Washington Va" in most places.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 08, 2010, 09:01:40 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM
Newer Pennsylvania BGS on I-79 north in the Washington PA area...chooses to put 'Pa' after the city in their own state
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh6.ggpht.com%2F_vV2-Fg-7T40%2FS0dTAgDUgtI%2FAAAAAAAABAA%2Fq17_vUbEj6c%2Fs800%2FIMG_3294.JPG&hash=a3ef704472da74a065a3350036adfa2caf16490b)

It's been like that forever.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv645%2Frickmastfan67%2FInterstates%2FPA%2FI-79%2FP1060229s.jpg&hash=768384daa746ecc70352b552454d98d1dfe8058d)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 10:45:22 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 08, 2010, 02:41:08 PM
Also, couple corrections here:
Quote from: shoptb1Newer Ohio BGS on I-271 north in the Cleveland area...abbreviates Pennsylvania as 'PA'
This is on I-71 north, not 271.
Quote from: shoptb1Older Ohio BGS on I-271 north in the Cleveland area...abbreviates Pennsylvania as 'Pa'
And this one's on 480 east.

Thanks - I've corrected the original post.  :)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: 74/171FAN on January 09, 2010, 09:39:19 AM
VA uses NC for Rocky Mount, NC on I-95 and I-295 SB to not be confused with Rocky Mount, VA off US 220 south of Roanoke about 200 miles west of I-95 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FI-95SOUTHATI-295NORTHEXIT46.jpg&hash=20d89eedbb5208d5881bee542850c0fb8fb8a252)  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FI-295SOUTHATI-64WESTANDUS60EXIT28B.jpg&hash=f17c9246fb6d149b647ee7e787be0e8d37528cdb)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Truvelo on January 09, 2010, 10:54:25 AM
Here's one in northern Iowa

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedcam.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk%2Fminn.jpg&hash=503c532ba6a26900dbfaa0a5a9c9713c5cf71532)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: PAHighways on January 09, 2010, 03:47:36 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on January 08, 2010, 12:11:27 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on January 08, 2010, 11:52:46 AM
Newer Pennsylvania BGS on I-79 north in the Washington PA area...chooses to put 'Pa' after the city in their own state

That's probably to avoid confusion with Washington DC

That is the reason.

Guide signage for I-79 southbound around Pittsburgh leaves off the "Pa."
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Bickendan on January 09, 2010, 05:11:24 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on January 08, 2010, 02:01:49 PM
Perhaps there should be some standardisation in signing places across state lines like this example from Eastern Europe. Cities in other countries have the country code in an oval next to the name.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsabre-roads.org.uk%2Fgallery%2Falbums%2Fuserpics%2F10163%2Fnormal_slo10.jpg&hash=5c96a82591c5ee8f9d2d512f5e08289ffbf40124)
That would be a good means of doing things.
Quote from: mightyace on January 08, 2010, 05:47:00 PM
Again, the infamous New York City via PENNA on I-76 EB near the Ohio Turnpike number switch with I-80.  "PENNA" or "Penna." is an old abbreviation for Pennsylvania and also shows up on the Turnpike Shield.

(https://www.aaroads.com/midwest/ohio/i-076_eb_at_i-080.jpg)
from AARoads

IIRC That sign or a similar replacement was still there just before Christmas.
Gah, that I-76 is noticeably off center.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: wytout on January 09, 2010, 05:19:54 PM
You know what's funny?  CT doesn't make any mention of the state at all on guide signs when the control city is in the neighboring state like most do.  This sign in Windsor, CT has Springfield as the control city.  The control city being in an immediately neighboring state, it should probably be listed as "Springfield MA" instead of just "Springfield."  As far as anything I've ever seen that's what most states do.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wytout.com%2Fpersonal%2F91north.JPG&hash=c0377876ba173c767167a34ee51df9616f3a9d20)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Truvelo on January 09, 2010, 05:26:17 PM
Considering there's about 50 different Springfields in the US it might be a good idea to know which one it is :-D
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Bickendan on January 09, 2010, 07:08:36 PM
You know if Puerto Rico becomes a state, they'll rename a city to Springfield just to get in on the action. :meh:
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Jim on January 09, 2010, 07:51:58 PM
Maybe Connecticut just wants to leave it open, since I-91 North can take you to Springfield, Mass., and then on to Springfield, Vermont.

I seem to recall some signs in southern Vermont that differentiate between the two more carefully, but I can't seem to find a picture in my collection.  It might be at the Springfield exit on I-91 in Vermont where Vermont is specified on the sign.  Maybe someone has more definite memory of this or better yet some pictures.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: shoptb1 on January 09, 2010, 07:55:42 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on January 09, 2010, 07:08:36 PM
You know if Puerto Rico becomes a state, they'll rename a city to Springfield just to get in on the action. :meh:

That'll probably go along with the Spanish-version of the Simpsons.   :sombrero:
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Ian on January 09, 2010, 08:00:58 PM
Quote from: wytout on January 09, 2010, 05:19:54 PM
You know what's funny?  CT doesn't make any mention of the state at all on guide signs when the control city is in the neighboring state like most do.  This sign in Windsor, CT has Springfield as the control city.  The control city being in an immediately neighboring state, it should probably be listed as "Springfield MA" instead of just "Springfield."  As far as anything I've ever seen that's what most states do.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wytout.com%2Fpersonal%2F91north.JPG&hash=c0377876ba173c767167a34ee51df9616f3a9d20)

I think CTDOT thinks everyone should know that Springfield is in Massachusetts. It's a big enough city in the area and people should know where it is.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: corco on January 09, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
One that's always really confused me that I just remembered as I was cropping photos from my last trip to Kansas City is this one on U.S. 169 north approaching Missouri 152 as you head out of Kansas City and away from Topeka

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2Fmo%2F169%2F29to152%2F7.jpg&hash=a8904c65ee9382158390aa2a15c215bcc986b84c)

My thoughts driving down the road were "Topeka? Topeka Kansas!?" "Certainly there must be a Topeka Missouri being referenced" then, realizing no Topeka Missouri, "Am I going the right way?"

Topeka is such a stretch on this stretch of road; you have to take 152 west to I-435 South to I-70 west, and it's pretty far southwest at this point through a maze of roads. A "Topeka Kan." would have been helpful here, since the route from here to Topeka is circuitous and far enough that one would assume a Topeka in Missouri is being referenced...at least that's what I thought driving by, but I don't spend much time in Missouri. Maybe for Missourans this makes more sense, but only the most local of travelers would be on US-169 North right here with the intent of heading to Topeka, so I'd think a more localized control like "Parkville" (just gazing at a map, no idea if that would be logical or not) would be in order.

I think even MoDOT realizes it's a stretch, because at the actual junction they just omit a control city altogether
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2Fmo%2F169%2F29to152%2F8.jpg&hash=a3c2b97625982cd39eb745fb10e45de14e136779)

Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Duke87 on January 10, 2010, 12:12:26 AM
Quote from: wytout on January 09, 2010, 05:19:54 PM
You know what's funny?  CT doesn't make any mention of the state at all on guide signs when the control city is in the neighboring state like most do.  This sign in Windsor, CT has Springfield as the control city.  The control city being in an immediately neighboring state, it should probably be listed as "Springfield MA" instead of just "Springfield."  As far as anything I've ever seen that's what most states do.

Well, the signs on the Merritt for exit 27 list "Port Chester, N.Y." and "Armonk, N.Y." as control points for NY120A. Although, that's different. Those are minor places, so mentioning the state is necessary. Control cities such as "Springfield" and "Providence" are major enough not to need it. So Connecticut does this right, if you ask me.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: wytout on January 10, 2010, 07:13:33 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 10, 2010, 12:12:26 AM

Well, the signs on the Merritt for exit 27 list "Port Chester, N.Y." and "Armonk, N.Y." as control points for NY120A. Although, that's different. Those are minor places, so mentioning the state is necessary. Control cities such as "Springfield" and "Providence" are major enough not to need it. So Connecticut does this right, if you ask me.

Actually, you are right.  I got a bit jumpy in this argument.  I forgot about this first BGS WB on I-84 in Union CT... lists "Union" & "Holland Mass"

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wytout.com%2Fpersonal%2Fct171.JPG&hash=0fd9fa08af067e93fd04c5281534c47c1963650c)

Possibly MORE interesting is the Advance guide sign before this which is still in MA, and maintained by MassHighway.  They  must feel that both towns are so insignificant (and they ARE! lol) that they needed to not only put the CT with Union, but the MA with Holland as well.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wytout.com%2Fpersonal%2Fct171ma.JPG&hash=94a4cfee04aac61f1ceaaaf995ea5c932b9bfcf5)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: J N Winkler on January 10, 2010, 10:50:34 AM
Quote from: corco on January 09, 2010, 08:12:38 PM
One that's always really confused me that I just remembered as I was cropping photos from my last trip to Kansas City is this one on U.S. 169 north approaching Missouri 152 as you head out of Kansas City and away from Topeka

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2Fmo%2F169%2F29to152%2F7.jpg&hash=a8904c65ee9382158390aa2a15c215bcc986b84c)

But at that point you are still within the Kansas City beltway (I-435), which is signed for Topeka along its western flank.

QuoteTopeka is such a stretch on this stretch of road; you have to take 152 west to I-435 South to I-70 west, and it's pretty far southwest at this point through a maze of roads. A "Topeka Kan." would have been helpful here, since the route from here to Topeka is circuitous and far enough that one would assume a Topeka in Missouri is being referenced...at least that's what I thought driving by, but I don't spend much time in Missouri.

But Topeka is much closer at this point than it is on the northern flank of the beltway.  It is a useful destination for drivers originating in communities like Platte Woods and Barry, for which SR 152 is the most direct route to Topeka, and nearby towns like Gladstone and Oakview, for which a SR 152 itinerary is not the shortest or most direct but does offer the possibility of bypassing I-635 and the Kansas City downtown loop.  There is a momentary failure of full free-flow at the SR 152/I-435 interchange but this is nothing compared to dealing with tollbooths on the Turnpike.

QuoteI think even MoDOT realizes it's a stretch, because at the actual junction they just omit a control city altogether

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2Fmo%2F169%2F29to152%2F8.jpg&hash=a3c2b97625982cd39eb745fb10e45de14e136779)

That is a failure of continuity in signing since Topeka is signed explicitly at the SR 152/I-435 interchange:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Liberty,+Mo.&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Liberty,+Clay,+Missouri&ll=39.245407,-94.755353&spn=0.004279,0.009645&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.24541,-94.755579&panoid=ZAx78g6vV2GF02V5rR3dNQ&cbp=12,286.32,,0,3.8
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: rschen7754 on January 11, 2010, 04:45:12 PM
Washington does sign Vancouver on I-5 as Vancouver B.C., but then there is a Vancouver, Washington that I-5 goes through as well. :|
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: J N Winkler on January 11, 2010, 05:50:15 PM
It's not just "Vancouver B.C."--I've seen Eastern Region construction plans which also said "Trail B.C.," "Grand Forks B.C.," etc.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: corco on January 11, 2010, 07:34:42 PM
Here's most of the non-Vancouver photos I have showing Canadian control cities

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F20%2F395to25%2F2.JPG&hash=c016726d137e23920324cb4bf31469a863c36cb9)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F395%2F20to25%2F7.JPG&hash=4ee7e784db3cab684db5f98cc889b0598905c0c6)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F395%2F20to25%2F8.JPG&hash=fba2b1fdb683756d1295020a5b93eeda3deb71b5)

The Grand Forks signs seem to omit the periods, but there's room for them
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F21%2F20to20%2F2.JPG&hash=8f0b976640271dc84dc0589466dd3de1bcc41897)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F21%2F20to20%2F3.JPG&hash=86799b6ec12a884dddd514e5e0cdc348d6c13dfd)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F395%2F25to20%2F4.JPG&hash=08ecf8d423648d9760aad7e97b2fc41cd3e6cfdc)


Here's Penticton without a BC
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F155SPUR%2F215to155%2F1.JPG&hash=35d1a6454fa03695c6978b2e0ad214c5620ce08b)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F20%2F215to97%2F2.JPG&hash=396b77761a40115b6d168345692186afb285d452)

Then of course, in the always vague eastern district (they also sign "Idaho" as a control city on a couple occasions) there's

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidjcorcoran.com%2Fhighways%2F31%2F20tocanada%2F4.JPG&hash=12dffaccb709ad994e07ddf90cd4b2eb00439066)

I'm fairly sure on mileage signs I've seen Abbotsford and Aldergrove marked as "Abbotsford B.C." and "Aldergrove B.C." as well
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Scott5114 on January 12, 2010, 03:41:47 AM
Presumably they don't want to get you confused with Grand Forks N.D. :P
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: SSOWorld on January 12, 2010, 10:51:07 AM
Wisconsin never puts the neighboring state's abbreviation on guide signs.

For two lane roads, I've seen Illinois do such (ex: Platteville Wisc) but for freeways, no.  (Memphis, St. Louis, Milwaukee and Madison come to mind from Chicago)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Brandon on January 12, 2010, 10:58:34 AM
Quote from: Master son on January 12, 2010, 10:51:07 AM
Wisconsin never puts the neighboring state's abbreviation on guide signs.

For two lane roads, I've seen Illinois do such (ex: Platteville Wisc) but for freeways, no.  (Memphis, St. Louis, Milwaukee and Madison come to mind from Chicago)

Of course, IDOT and ISTHA go one further and just omit the city and leave the state i.e. Iowa, Indiana, and Wisconsin on guide signs without cities.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Alps on January 12, 2010, 01:59:18 PM
There's a NJ example floating around of "P.A."  Pray tell, what do each of those letters stand for separately?
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: shoptb1 on January 12, 2010, 04:10:40 PM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on January 12, 2010, 01:59:18 PM
There's a NJ example floating around of "P.A."  Pray tell, what do each of those letters stand for separately?

'Pennsylvania-Alabama'? (You've got Pittsburgh & Philadelphia, and Alabama in between)   heeheheheheh   :colorful:
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: mightyace on January 12, 2010, 05:53:10 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on January 12, 2010, 04:10:40 PM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on January 12, 2010, 01:59:18 PM
There's a NJ example floating around of "P.A."  Pray tell, what do each of those letters stand for separately?

'Pennsylvania-Alabama'? (You've got Pittsburgh & Philadelphia, and Alabama in between)   heeheheheheh   :colorful:

As someone born and raised there:

Watch it sucka!

I'd say given the current leadership in the state it means "Pain in the A**"  :-D
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: jdb1234 on January 12, 2010, 06:07:27 PM
I have seen Florida use the postal code AL for the city of Dothan on I-10 at the interchange with US 231.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: route56 on January 13, 2010, 07:22:53 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on January 10, 2010, 10:50:34 AM
But at that point you are still within the Kansas City beltway (I-435), which is signed for Topeka along its western flank.

Only on the Missouri side. Kansas does not sign control cities on 435 or 635 (nor, for that matter, 235 in Wichita or 470 in Topeka).

Going back on topic, Oklahoma City and Des Moines are control Cities on I-35; Limon and St. Louis are control cities on I-70. None of these control cities are signed with the state name.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: Revive 755 on May 07, 2010, 04:42:15 PM
New sign on SB I-270 has "Springfield, Mo/Exit 5B).  Alas, I-270 was already too screwed up to try and grab a picture.
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: 74/171FAN on May 07, 2010, 05:16:43 PM
I-295 SB and I-95 SB in VA both use NC when referring to Rocky Mount, NC.  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FI-295SOUTHATI-64WESTANDUS60EXIT2-1.jpg&hash=011bbd062dce0b99db7db44f33eca5eb66141156)  (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi622.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ftt304%2F24DIDNOTWIN%2FI-95SOUTHATUS301ANDUS460BUSINESSEXI.jpg&hash=4f2d14e554b249f141edc2c9d37b28f959b9697e)
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: huskeroadgeek on May 07, 2010, 06:15:13 PM
This sort of fits-it's a state name, but it's actually for a city: I always noticed that in Arkansas heading W. on I-40 and in Kansas heading S. on I-35 they say "Oklahoma City" but within Oklahoma it's always just "Okla. City".
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: florida on May 10, 2010, 01:51:30 PM
On I-75 in GA, just across the FL border, there is the old postal abbreviation for Florida used on a sign.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=jennings,+fl&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=31.784549,78.662109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Jennings,+Hamilton,+Florida&ll=30.641755,-83.187293&spn=0,0.153637&t=h&z=13&layer=c&cbll=30.641755,-83.187293&panoid=_6mvcGygjVG-hb5kwcIcaQ&cbp=12,336.17,,0,3.89
Title: Re: State Abbreviations on Guide Signs
Post by: golden eagle on May 10, 2010, 09:14:31 PM
I'm not a big fan of state abbreviations on a map unless another city of the same name is close by (like Jackson, MS in the Memphis area, so as not to confuse with Jackson, TN). However, I'd rather have the two-letter abbreviation (Ms, Tn, ex.).