AARoads Forum

Washington Post opinion column: Danger ahead: Road signs that are too small or too confusing (https://www.washingtonpost.com/realestate/2018/01/25/b2c7859e-0081-11e8-8acf-ad2991367d9d_story.html)

QuoteDo you sometimes have difficulty with "way-finding" – knowing exactly where you are and selecting a new or alternative route to your intended destination in places where you don't routinely travel?

QuoteThe urban and suburban environments we inhabit and use should be beautiful, functional, economically viable, sustainable and safe. But they also should facilitate way-finding. Whether walking, biking or driving, locational and directional signs for way-finding are often a navigational necessity.

QuoteYet many way-finding signs are poorly designed, written and positioned. Occasionally, signage is missing altogether or so excessive as to produce sensory overload.

QuoteWay-finding deficiencies are especially problematic and dangerous on roads where drivers have only a few seconds to see, read, interpret and respond appropriately to way-finding information.

I find many of the speed limit signs are too small in general. Like why the freak are the numbers 16 inches tall in a 48*60 road sign. Logic? Also there is a lot of white space on the signs.

I mentioned this in your FB post & I'll repost similar here.

Lower Merion Township (Montgomery County), PA is one of the worst offenders of this with their old, cast-iron street blade signs.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2Fdims4%2FGG%2Fa6ec64b%2F2147483647%2Fresize%2F300x%253E%2Fquality%2F90%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcdnassets.hw.net%252F2e%252F99%252Ff458b416404b8400d6a065bedbd3%252Ftmp1229-2etmp-tcm111-1353077.jpg&hash=1b8d942324c837494052476f4d431e1bad04eebf)
Photo from a related article (http://www.pwmag.com/administration/signs-point-toward-a-battle_o)

While these signs are both vintage & nostalgic; they are an absolute bear to read while driving and completely unreadable at night.

Since the article that featured the above-photo was written; there have been larger, modern, reflective, MUTCD-complaint signage erected to supplement the old iron signs; however, not all intersections have received the new signage.

Those quotes are all very good guidelines used by professionals to establish traffic control design elements.  Glad an outsider is taking notice of the purposes behind traffic control BMP's, and of what we geeks recognize every day  :bigass:

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 26, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
I find many of the speed limit signs are too small in general. Like why the freak are the numbers 16 inches tall in a 48*60 road sign. Logic? Also there is a lot of white space on the signs.

This is why Oregon's "SPEED XX" signs are so much better -- the numerals are more than half the height of the sign. Plus, despite "SPEED XX" and "SPEED LIMIT XX" meaning two different things in Oregon law, 99.9% of drivers will treat the former like the latter, so why not drop the mostly superfluous "LIMIT" from the sign and make the numbers larger?

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 26, 2018, 04:05:23 PM
I find many of the speed limit signs are too small in general. Like why the freak are the numbers 16 inches tall in a 48*60 road sign. Logic? Also there is a lot of white space on the signs.

Somewhere along the way, someone decided 16-IN was good enough for the desired legibility (typically accepted to be 30-40-FT per 1-IN of letter height). In any case, the speed limit isn't critical information to the driver; therefore, increasing it has rarely been brought up outside of forums like this. Larger or not, drivers will continue to ignore the sign just the same.

I do agree with that article's author that a lot of street signs in the DC area are too small, poorly positioned, or both. I don't know why the local jurisdictions have an aversion to overhead street signs hung from the traffic light span wire (well, I know why the District doesn't do it–they rarely have overhead street lights). Other places I've been–Raleigh comes most readily to mind because I lived in the area for three years–have no problem whatsoever with hanging a street sign from their span wire, yet Virginia in particular seems to refuse to do so, preferring those dinky signs mounted either on one of the traffic light poles or on a separate pole at one corner of the intersection. He's correct that signage like that is inadequate and hard to see, especially as the number of larger vehicles like SUVs that block your view of the signage has increased over the years. (Thankfully, as Virginia replaces span wire with mast arms they've gotten better about mounting signs on the arms, although they don't do it everywhere.)

The white-on-blue street signs we have in Fairfax County are a big improvement over the tiny old white-on-green signs, although I can think of some intersections–mostly lower-volume VDOT System neighborhood streets–where the old signs survive.

Quote from: PHLBOS on January 26, 2018, 04:12:28 PM
I mentioned this in your FB post & I'll repost similar here.

Lower Merion Township (Montgomery County), PA is one of the worst offenders of this with their old, cast-iron street blade signs.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdnassets.hw.net%2Fdims4%2FGG%2Fa6ec64b%2F2147483647%2Fresize%2F300x%253E%2Fquality%2F90%2F%3Furl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fcdnassets.hw.net%252F2e%252F99%252Ff458b416404b8400d6a065bedbd3%252Ftmp1229-2etmp-tcm111-1353077.jpg&hash=1b8d942324c837494052476f4d431e1bad04eebf)
Photo from a related article (http://www.pwmag.com/administration/signs-point-toward-a-battle_o)

While these signs are both vintage & nostalgic; they are an absolute bear to read while driving and completely unreadable at night.

Since the article that featured the above-photo was written; there have been larger, modern, reflective, MUTCD-complaint signage erected to supplement the old iron signs; however, not all intersections have received the new signage.

Newton MA's old street signs are far worse:  embossed cast iron, black lettering on a gray background.  They tend to blend into the scenery during the day and are completely invisible at night.  At least the ones you posted have some contrast between the letters and the background.

Plenty of the speed limit signs in Connecticut use large bold numerals
Here's an example https://www.google.com/maps/@42.015986,-72.5869169,3a,75y,167.24h,86.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spbMNDsSjDFQSmP4WUZ_PyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 28, 2018, 04:15:08 AM
At least the sign isn't cluttered with unused white space. That is my main problem with the US signs.

white space is critical for legibility. are there any signs in particular that you think have too much?

Quote from: odditude on January 29, 2018, 04:31:27 PM

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 28, 2018, 04:15:08 AM
At least the sign isn't cluttered with unused white space. That is my main problem with the US signs.

white space is critical for legibility. are there any signs in particular that you think have too much?

Miosh Tino had a good comparison of 3 60x48 road signs:

Quote from: Miosh Tino

LEFT: Oregon SPEED sign (60x48, 30-inch Series C digits)
MIDDLE: California SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 20-inch Series E or E(M) digits)
RIGHT: FHWA/SHSM SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 16-inch Series E digits

The middle one still has ample legibility while increase the size of the letters compared to the typical one on the right. My favorite is still the Idaho sign (Oregon second) but that's another topic. Minor improvements can make a big difference (right sign to middle sign).

Edit: I'm 99% sure the middle sign is also the standard for the 30x24 signs (half the size of the 60x48)

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 30, 2018, 02:32:30 AM

Quote from: odditude on January 29, 2018, 04:31:27 PM

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 28, 2018, 04:15:08 AM
At least the sign isn't cluttered with unused white space. That is my main problem with the US signs.

white space is critical for legibility. are there any signs in particular that you think have too much?

Miosh Tino had a good comparison of 3 60x48 road signs:

Quote from: Miosh Tino

LEFT: Oregon SPEED sign (60x48, 30-inch Series C digits)
MIDDLE: California SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 20-inch Series E or E(M) digits)
RIGHT: FHWA/SHSM SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 16-inch Series E digits

The middle one still has ample legibility while increase the size of the letters compared to the typical one on the right. My favorite is still the Idaho sign (Oregon second) but that's another topic. Minor improvements can make a big difference (right sign to middle sign).

Edit: I'm 99% sure the middle sign is also the standard for the 30x24 signs (half the size of the 60x48)

Yeah, I have no idea why the FHWA-spec 48x60 speed limit sign calls for 16-inch numerals but I do have a preference for the California version with the larger digits.  Sadly, there are more and more speed limit signs in California that conform to the FHWA spec.

Oh and it's myosh_tino, not miosh_tino...  :-D

I think FHWA should never have permitted the use of mixed-case FHWA series other than Series E Modified (and possibly Series E) on D-series signs.  I would also like to see the minimum height requirement jacked up to lowercase loop height of 6 in, rather than capital letter height of 6 in, at least for primary state highways and other important through highways.  I don't care what FHWA says about engineering judgment:  there is no shortage of agencies willing to use Series D or thinner (Vermont AOT uses Series B) to stick with unreinforced single-sheet construction for D-series signs.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 03:19:40 AM
It's not fair. The second sign does not exist. It's always accompanied by a directional banner, effectively dictating the sign to mean 'Route [XX] [cardinal direction]'.

The sign above (obviously) has no current meaning in America. A sign on its own, with just numbers (and nothing else), accompanied by no supplementary plaque, is not a thing that I've seen before.

It's very (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.740025,-74.3770625,3a,50.5y,29.79h,75.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNMh1V_uF1TiYkzZW2c0YA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) common in NY.

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2018, 12:53:00 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 03:19:40 AM
It's not fair. The second sign does not exist. It's always accompanied by a directional banner, effectively dictating the sign to mean 'Route [XX] [cardinal direction]'.

The sign above (obviously) has no current meaning in America. A sign on its own, with just numbers (and nothing else), accompanied by no supplementary plaque, is not a thing that I've seen before.

It's very (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.740025,-74.3770625,3a,50.5y,29.79h,75.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNMh1V_uF1TiYkzZW2c0YA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) common in NY.

I assume that's an error. How could you have a shield without a cardinal direction?

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2018, 12:53:00 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 03:19:40 AM
A sign on its own, with just numbers (and nothing else), accompanied by no supplementary plaque, is not a thing that I've seen before.

It's very (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.740025,-74.3770625,3a,50.5y,29.79h,75.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNMh1V_uF1TiYkzZW2c0YA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) common in NY.

I know :banghead: Such signs are the bane of my existence. There are enough of them that I'm not at all convinced they're posted in error.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 01:03:36 PM

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2018, 12:53:00 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 03:19:40 AM
It's not fair. The second sign does not exist. It's always accompanied by a directional banner, effectively dictating the sign to mean 'Route [XX] [cardinal direction]'.

The sign above (obviously) has no current meaning in America. A sign on its own, with just numbers (and nothing else), accompanied by no supplementary plaque, is not a thing that I've seen before.

It's very (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.740025,-74.3770625,3a,50.5y,29.79h,75.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNMh1V_uF1TiYkzZW2c0YA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) common in NY.

I assume that's an error. How could you have a shield without a cardinal direction?

There's a ton of county highways signed without a cardinal direction around Wisconsin. A few have had a cardinal added as part of reconstruction projects, but the rationalization for not having them I heard was due to how often county highways change direction, so assigning a single cardinal isn't too helpful.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 01:03:36 PM

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2018, 12:53:00 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 03:19:40 AM
It's not fair. The second sign does not exist. It's always accompanied by a directional banner, effectively dictating the sign to mean 'Route [XX] [cardinal direction]'.

The sign above (obviously) has no current meaning in America. A sign on its own, with just numbers (and nothing else), accompanied by no supplementary plaque, is not a thing that I've seen before.

It's very (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.740025,-74.3770625,3a,50.5y,29.79h,75.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNMh1V_uF1TiYkzZW2c0YA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) common in NY.

I assume that's an error. How could you have a shield without a cardinal direction?

There's one with the direction posted just a tenth of a mile back.  Posting a shield with the cardinal direction followed by one without is practically standard operating procedure in NY (I'm not sure what the official policy is, but they're everywhere).  There's even a part of NY 28 where the directional banners are omitted entirely because the route has an odd shape - NY 28 actually spends 22 miles with the "northbound" direction pointed south before ending.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 01:03:36 PM

Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2018, 12:53:00 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 03:19:40 AM
It's not fair. The second sign does not exist. It's always accompanied by a directional banner, effectively dictating the sign to mean 'Route [XX] [cardinal direction]'.

The sign above (obviously) has no current meaning in America. A sign on its own, with just numbers (and nothing else), accompanied by no supplementary plaque, is not a thing that I've seen before.

It's very (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.740025,-74.3770625,3a,50.5y,29.79h,75.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNMh1V_uF1TiYkzZW2c0YA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) common in NY.

I assume that's an error. How could you have a shield without a cardinal direction?

Such was the standard for reassurance back in the day (I think as late as 1948, possibly 1961 too). Some agencies just never got into the practice, anyway.

Do you really expect a dumbass who can't figure out how to work a credit card terminal to know the difference between a circle 50 shield and a circle 50 speed limit because there's no banner on the speed limit, though?

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Do you really expect a dumbass who can't figure out how to work a credit card terminal to know the difference between a circle 50 shield and a circle 50 speed limit because there's no banner on the speed limit, though?

There's a lot of signs in the MUTCD. The only other circular cutout sign is the railroad crossing sign, and that's yellow with a very clear legend. I don't think people are that stupid.

That said, I prefer Australia's approach anyway, which is the generic speed limit sign covered up with a red circle in the center. If the US ever switches to metric, it would be wise to consider an alternative design like Australia's.

FWIW, I did not know states posted shields without cardinal directions. That's definitely not a thing where I'm from.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 02:30:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Do you really expect a dumbass who can't figure out how to work a credit card terminal to know the difference between a circle 50 shield and a circle 50 speed limit because there's no banner on the speed limit, though?

I don't think people are that stupid.

Having worked nothing but customer service jobs, I assure you they are.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 02:30:25 PM
FWIW, I did not know states posted shields without cardinal directions. That's definitely not a thing where I'm from.

It shouldn't be a thing anywhere. But, it definitely is.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:32:49 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 02:30:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Do you really expect a dumbass who can't figure out how to work a credit card terminal to know the difference between a circle 50 shield and a circle 50 speed limit because there's no banner on the speed limit, though?

I don't think people are that stupid.

Having worked nothing but customer service jobs, I assure you they are.

Sometimes, I do have trouble convincing myself that "the customer is always right". I don't envy those of you with customer service positions.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:32:49 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 02:30:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Do you really expect a dumbass who can't figure out how to work a credit card terminal to know the difference between a circle 50 shield and a circle 50 speed limit because there's no banner on the speed limit, though?

I don't think people are that stupid.

Having worked nothing but customer service jobs, I assure you they are.

I also deal in customer service (I work at a hotel). It's not quite the same thing, though. Customer service jobs exist to help those who aren't trained to understand whatever it is they are using (or need help using). Driver's licenses, despite popular opinion, are not just handed out. Drivers are trained to understand shapes, colors, understand markings and signals, what certain symbols mean and how to drive defensively. Are American drivers not as well trained as their European counterparts? Probably. But they're not retarded.

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 02:30:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Do you really expect a dumbass who can't figure out how to work a credit card terminal to know the difference between a circle 50 shield and a circle 50 speed limit because there's no banner on the speed limit, though?

There's a lot of signs in the MUTCD. The only other circular cutout sign is the railroad crossing sign, and that's yellow with a very clear legend. I don't think people are that stupid.

That said, I prefer Australia's approach anyway, which is the generic speed limit sign covered up with a red circle in the center. If the US ever switches to metric, it would be wise to consider an alternative design like Australia's.

FWIW, I did not know states posted shields without cardinal directions. That's definitely not a thing where I'm from.

I would say circular is not the main point of it. European traffic signage does not rely on words for immediate control functions - and MUTCD spells out everything. I suspect that european signage was developed under assumption that drivers do not have to be literate, and memorizing some pictograms is relatively easy. Sort of pointless by now...

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 02:42:53 PM
Customer service jobs exist to help those who aren't trained to understand whatever it is they are using (or need help using).

I agree with the rest of your post. But this is up for debate.

Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2018, 02:43:34 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2018, 02:30:25 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 02:22:21 PM
Do you really expect a dumbass who can't figure out how to work a credit card terminal to know the difference between a circle 50 shield and a circle 50 speed limit because there's no banner on the speed limit, though?

There's a lot of signs in the MUTCD. The only other circular cutout sign is the railroad crossing sign, and that's yellow with a very clear legend. I don't think people are that stupid.

That said, I prefer Australia's approach anyway, which is the generic speed limit sign covered up with a red circle in the center. If the US ever switches to metric, it would be wise to consider an alternative design like Australia's.

FWIW, I did not know states posted shields without cardinal directions. That's definitely not a thing where I'm from.

I would say circular is not the main point of it. European traffic signage does not rely on words for immediate control functions - and MUTCD spells out everything. I suspect that european signage was developed under assumption that drivers do not have to be literate, and memorizing some pictograms is relatively easy. Sort of pointless by now...

European signage does not rely on words because of the variety of languages in the area.

Quote from: 1 on January 30, 2018, 02:47:15 PM
European signage does not rely on words because of the variety of languages in the area.

There are places in the US, too, where there are many languages spoken. Not to the extent of Europe, but reduced reliance on words can only help in motorist guidance.

Actually, our signing system is designed to accommodate a certain level of mild mental impairment.  Choice of standard letter sizes for signs and limits on message units per sign assembly are based on the assumption that a driver of ordinary mental acuity should be able to read the complete sign message twice in the time it is acceptably visible for reading (defined as a certain range of viewing angles both horizontally and vertically).  The reason for twice-over reading is explicitly to allow the sign to be read at least once by the mentally slow.  This goes all the way back to studies in sign legibility which T.W. Forbes carried out at the (then) Yale Bureau of Street Traffic in the late 1930's.  (I have long suspected, but have not yet proven, that Forbes' research was funded by the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission for the purpose of developing signs for the original Irwin-Carlisle length.)

Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2018, 02:43:34 PMI would say circular is not the main point of it. European traffic signage does not rely on words for immediate control functions - and MUTCD spells out everything. I suspect that European signage was developed under assumption that drivers do not have to be literate, and memorizing some pictograms is relatively easy. Sort of pointless by now...

There is a book by Martin Krampen (in German) that deals with the early history of European signing systems.  Belt-and-braces solutions combining symbols and word messages on the same sign panel were actually quite common--Italy and Britain had such systems, for example.  The British experience when transitioning from a mixed to symbol-heavy system in the mid-1960's (pre-Worboys signs to modern Worboys signs) was that sign comprehension immediately went down.

Another problem with importing the red circle is that a circular blank is used in Vienna Convention signage for regulatory signage. So putting a speed of 50 on a red circle has legal force behind it.

Under US traffic laws, the equivalent sign is, of course, a white rectangle. So to import this practice and have it have legal meaning, you'd end up with:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/MA_Route_50.svg/200px-MA_Route_50.svg.png)

Which doesn't really help much.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 30, 2018, 04:43:43 PM
Another problem with importing the red circle is that a circular blank is used in Vienna Convention signage for regulatory signage. So putting a speed of 50 on a red circle has legal force behind it.

Under US traffic laws, the equivalent sign is, of course, a white rectangle. So to import this practice and have it have legal meaning, you'd end up with:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/MA_Route_50.svg/200px-MA_Route_50.svg.png)

Which doesn't really help much.

One of the things that crossed my mind at some point... If US eventually goes to significantly different approach in terms of speed limits and their enforcement  (making them more realistic and serious, not a +10-20MPH speeding on a road underposted by 15 MPH), a new type of speed limit sign would be needed to replace old and heavily compromised type...

Quote from: kalvado on January 30, 2018, 05:44:44 PM
One of the things that crossed my mind at some point... If US eventually goes to significantly different approach in terms of speed limits and their enforcement  (making them more realistic and serious, not a +10-20MPH speeding on a road underposted by 15 MPH), a new type of speed limit sign would be needed to replace old and heavily compromised type...

Why would you need a new type of sign?

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on January 30, 2018, 02:32:30 AM

Miosh Tino had a good comparison of 3 60x48 road signs:

Quote from: Miosh Tino

LEFT: Oregon SPEED sign (60x48, 30-inch Series C digits)
MIDDLE: California SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 20-inch Series E or E(M) digits)
RIGHT: FHWA/SHSM SPEED LIMIT sign (60x48, 16-inch Series E digits

And just noticed something that can be placed to the right of this list

Got permission from PDX Wanderer to use his picture here: Idaho version of Speed limit 80, notice the series D digits instead of the series C or E used on the previous examples yet everything is still visable from a distance (not seen here). Estimating 24-inch letters.

Quote from: PDX Wanderer

Quote from: Hurricane Rex on February 08, 2018, 01:35:15 AM
Idaho version of Speed limit 80, notice the series D digits instead of the series C or E used on the previous examples ... Estimating 24-inch letters.

Quote from: PDX Wanderer

Interesting.  So I went and found a higher resolution photo of an Idaho 80 MPH speed limit sign and using "pixel math" I came up with this drawing with the following specs...



5.625" -- Top Margin
8.000" -- "SPEED" and "LIMIT" (Series E)
4.125" -- Space between SPEED and LIMIT
5.250" -- Space between LIMIT and Digits
24.00" -- Numerals (Series D)
5.000" -- Bottom Margin

Here are all 4 signs side-by-side-by-side-by-side (OR-ID-CA-FHWA)...

I think the OR sign should become the national standard.  The numbers are big and easy to see.  We aren't ready in this country to accept a European standard of just a number as it can be easily confused with a highway number, especially in states where the highway symbol is just a rectangle.

Quote from: mrsman on April 05, 2018, 06:35:51 PM
I think the OR sign should become the national standard.  The numbers are big and easy to see.  We aren't ready in this country to accept a European standard of just a number as it can be easily confused with a highway number, especially in states where the highway symbol is just a rectangle.

I've only seen the Oregon style speed limit sign once in another state. It's a school speed limit sign in Puyallup, Washington (still up as of today). No idea if it's legally enforceable:

(https://i.imgur.com/Cl7Sliw.jpg)

It's also worth noting that even in Oregon, "Speed XX" and "Speed Limit XX" mean two different things.  It is not illegal in and of itself to go faster than a "Speed XX" sign.

I would like to see someone try the "sign didn't use FHWA series" argument before a judge.  It should work, but I know of no previous case where it has been tried.  The "No Stoping" argument did work when it was tried, probably back in the 1930's.

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 08, 2018, 07:58:05 PM
I would like to see someone try the "sign didn't use FHWA series" argument before a judge.  It should work, but I know of no previous case where it has been tried.  The "No Stoping" argument did work when it was tried, probably back in the 1930's.

Speaking of "No Stopping"...wonder if someone could get their citation thrown out if they run this red light (https://goo.gl/maps/7VDMQSoYim62)?

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 08, 2018, 07:58:05 PM
I would like to see someone try the "sign didn't use FHWA series" argument before a judge.  It should work, but I know of no previous case where it has been tried.  The "No Stoping" argument did work when it was tried, probably back in the 1930's.

I doubt many people are even aware that all road signs have the same font, never mind that agencies are required to use a specific font.

I would quite like to see the Canadian style "yield at roundabout" sign used, but because it's not an official road sign, there would be no obligation on the part of drivers to observe it as an actual yield sign. Hence why basically everything that's put up on the road has to be to some sort of FHWA standard (and is why I don't believe the sign I posted above is an actual, enforceable speed limit sign).

Quote from: DaBigE on April 08, 2018, 10:53:42 PM

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 08, 2018, 07:58:05 PM
I would like to see someone try the "sign didn't use FHWA series" argument before a judge.  It should work, but I know of no previous case where it has been tried.  The "No Stoping" argument did work when it was tried, probably back in the 1930's.

Speaking of "No Stopping"...wonder if someone could get their citation thrown out if they run this red light (https://goo.gl/maps/7VDMQSoYim62)?

I think that goes in the category of "signs that should not be posted where they have been".