From lohud:
Cashless tolls horror stories: 'I wept,' says she uses IRA to pay billQuoteEditor's note: The implementation of cashless tolling in the Lower Hudson Valley has brought howls of complaints from drivers who have told us horror stories. Some say they've never received bills, only to face thousands of dollars in late fees. Others told us about strong-arm tactics of collection agencies, about a faceless system that didn't seem to care. Here are two of their stories.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (http://markholtz.info/1tn)
Seems to me that instead of telling the person at the booth "I don't have E-ZPass" (which implies that she never had one and no doubt confused the toll collector), she should have said "my account was suspended and I was directed to pay cash". Probably would have avoided a lot of trouble that way.
Quote from: vdeane on February 19, 2018, 07:27:01 PM
Seems to me that instead of telling the person at the booth "I don't have E-ZPass" (which implies that she never had one and no doubt confused the toll collector), she should have said "my account was suspended and I was directed to pay cash". Probably would have avoided a lot of trouble that way.
Agreed, plus she should have asked for a receipt after paying cash.
I hated how different agencies handled cashless tolling - especially if a device malfunctioned. I used an Ohio EZ-Pass transponder that failed on a trip last year, and while the NY Thruway just took a photo of the plate and charged my EZ-Pass account, the MTA bridges had physical barriers that prevented me from going through (transponder began working at another gate, only to fail again). So I had to wait while someone manually walked across all of the lanes (from the far side) only to ask what was wrong. And then had to walk all the way back to her office, and then back to me to write down my plate and give me a piece of paper. I had to mail in my payment. That was a stupid 15 minutes that could have been avoided if better procedures and technology were in place then. It's a moot point since it's now high-speed lanes on some of the bridges with more to come.
But considering how often I drive toll roads, the problems are essentially non-existent. That's been the ONLY major issue, other than transponders failing periodically. There are more horror stories about people not having proper payment methods, or not having exact change, or...
Indiana has credit card readers at the cashless lanes, though I'm not sure if those are there for a malfunctioning transponder, a transponder with no money on it, malfunctioning equipment that can't read the transponder, or all three. It's still not quite a perfect solution when each car in the lane has to spend 5-10 minutes on the phone completing the transaction.
We've had an EZ-Pass for 6 years and I dread to think what will happen when the battery dies and we don't know it's dead.
The Dulles Greenway in Virginia has credit/debit lanes (no cash) at the ramp tolls, though I don't know how it works because I use E-ZPass.
Regarding the battery, until I replaced our transponders last fall I made a point of going through a "conventional" toll plaza every few months to verify that our transponders triggered the lights properly.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 20, 2018, 11:10:24 AM
Indiana has credit card readers at the cashless lanes, though I'm not sure if those are there for a malfunctioning transponder, a transponder with no money on it, malfunctioning equipment that can't read the transponder, or all three. It's still not quite a perfect solution when each car in the lane has to spend 5-10 minutes on the phone completing the transaction.
We've had an EZ-Pass for 6 years and I dread to think what will happen when the battery dies and we don't know it's dead.
I guess the Toll Road ones are there for the folks who get in the wrong lane. I had a vehicle doing that in front of me one morning.
ISTHA will send you a letter when you've had your transponder for about 10 years, directing you to trade it in a Jewel-Osco for free for a new transponder. They do this due to the time the batteries last in them.
Good point in that article about toll agencies often having little oversight. Almost nothing you can do in case of a problem.
We don't do toll roads in Tennessee.
It's also why we won't be seeing I-69 completed in Tennessee any time soon.
More than one place in Oklahoma I ran across a correct change/toll tag only without a changer or person there. The sign informing a person of the fact was after a person could turn around. I had no toll tag and no change as in 60 cents. I blew through it as I was from out of state. I received a threat in the mail. After calling them they waved it.
Not long ago Oklahoma did not have a way of tracking me since I was out of state. They do now. I found out when my Texas NTTA toll tag was suppose to be read in Oklahoma but for some reason it was not. Another nasty gram from them and a phone call from me got it waved.
I ran into a similar thing in Kansas. Their reader did not read the toll NTTA toll tag on my motorcycle. It is supposed to be good in Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas. I got a bill and a ticket. I called them. When the lady heard me say motorcycle she said she had three other motorcycle riders call earlier that day, same problem. So I assume those readers are not very reliable.
The cashless I don't have to slow down to 35 or 45 mph and they work are better than stopping, get a ticket, then stopping to pay. But the correct cash only with no one there and no changer pisses me off.
Quote from: Brandon on February 20, 2018, 01:27:54 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 20, 2018, 11:10:24 AM
Indiana has credit card readers at the cashless lanes, though I'm not sure if those are there for a malfunctioning transponder, a transponder with no money on it, malfunctioning equipment that can't read the transponder, or all three. It's still not quite a perfect solution when each car in the lane has to spend 5-10 minutes on the phone completing the transaction.
We've had an EZ-Pass for 6 years and I dread to think what will happen when the battery dies and we don't know it's dead.
I guess the Toll Road ones are there for the folks who get in the wrong lane. I had a vehicle doing that in front of me one morning.
The one time I went through with an I-Pass that wasn't functioning, several cars in front of us were having the same issue.
Quote from: Brandon on February 20, 2018, 01:27:54 PMISTHA will send you a letter when you've had your transponder for about 10 years, directing you to trade it in a Jewel-Osco for free for a new transponder. They do this due to the time the batteries last in them.
We have an EZ-Pass from NJ, I hope they do the same thing.
That's the advantage of high-speed lanes with plate -and- transponder readers. If the transponder or the transponder reader fails, then a picture of the plate is taken and the customer is billed a normal EZ-Pass rate. If the customer doesn't have a transponder, then no big deal. They get a picture of their plate taken and billed a non-EZ-Pass rate.
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 03:41:31 PM
That's the advantage of high-speed lanes with plate -and- transponder readers. If the transponder or the transponder reader fails, then a picture of the plate is taken and the customer is billed a normal EZ-Pass rate. If the customer doesn't have a transponder, then no big deal. They get a picture of their plate taken and billed a non-EZ-Pass rate.
Great theory, bro, and it almost always work. Almost. We can disregard remaining 1% who get some sort of an issue with the system.
And?
Statistically, that's far better than the error rate associated with the first generation EZ-Pass transponder readers. The vast majority of these horror stories are nothing more than anecdotes.
And these tolled facilities are a far easier sell than raising the gasoline tax to build mega-projects like the Ohio River Bridges Project.
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 04:01:57 PM
And?
Statistically, that's far better than the error rate associated with the first generation EZ-Pass transponder readers. The vast majority of these horror stories are nothing more than anecdotes.
And these tolled facilities are a far easier sell than raising the gasoline tax to build mega-projects like the Ohio River Bridges Project.
And the thing is that I'm not happy to be punished for being statistical deviation. Unfortunately, punishing for any problem - or non-standard arrangement - is the principal mode of operation for many toll facilities.
I don't care for any system that nitpicks violations (37 in a 35 - really?) and/or makes it intentionally difficult for you to deal with them to resolve an error. However, unless I'm missing something, I get the impression from the "I had to dip into my IRA" woman that she just plain disregarded SEVERAL notices, which probably explains why her account was eventually suspended and they were threatening to cancel her vehicle registration.
And, with respect to this woman, I suspect that if she called the toll agency when she got the first notice, it never would have escalated to a $5,000 fine, or to the point of being turned over to a collection agency.
Quote from: kalvado on February 20, 2018, 04:08:35 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 04:01:57 PM
And?
Statistically, that's far better than the error rate associated with the first generation EZ-Pass transponder readers. The vast majority of these horror stories are nothing more than anecdotes.
And these tolled facilities are a far easier sell than raising the gasoline tax to build mega-projects like the Ohio River Bridges Project.
And the thing is that I'm not happy to be punished for being statistical deviation. Unfortunately, punishing for any problem - or non-standard arrangement - is the principal mode of operation for many toll facilities.
Sad to say, for every person using a toll facility who encounters a legitimate error, I suspect there are probably at least a half dozen or more who are intentionally trying to game the system. While I don't agree with most of the tactics these agencies use - especially in terms of late fees and fines, I can understand why they often take such measures to collect what is due them.
Quote from: roadman on February 20, 2018, 04:11:04 PM
I don't care for any system that nitpicks violations (37 in a 35 - really?) and/or makes it intentionally difficult for you to deal with them to resolve an error. However, unless I'm missing something, I get the impression from the "I had to dip into my IRA" woman that she just plain disregarded SEVERAL notices, which probably explains why her account was eventually suspended and they were threatening to cancel her vehicle registration.
And, with respect to this woman, I suspect that if she called the toll agency when she got the first notice, it never would have escalated to a $5,000 fine, or to the point of being turned over to a collection agency.
From personal experience of dealing with NYSTA on EZpass issues:
if she called the toll agency when she got the first notice,
nothing would change.
-I sent all the documents via priority mail, here is my tracking number: ... It was delivered and signed for!
-I'm sorry, but employee dealing with your case no longer works for us, so I have no track of your paperwork.
The issues I had with my transponder that was on the fritz from Ohio, NYSTA was more than willing to work with me to resolve some an issue relating to a charge. And to my surprise, I received no penalties or interest charges. Your mileage may vary, of course.
But considering that someone had to dip into the IRA to pay a penalty, then it's more than likely that the driver was ignoring the letters, or didn't have current contact information registered with the agency, or was refusing to pay the initial penalties.
It's no different than a collection agency being summoned for -well- overdue payments.
Just keep your accounts current, keep your information up-to-date and be responsible.
Quote from: leroys73 on February 20, 2018, 02:58:41 PMI ran into a similar thing in Kansas. Their reader did not read the toll NTTA toll tag on my motorcycle. It is supposed to be good in Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas. I got a bill and a ticket. I called them. When the lady heard me say motorcycle she said she had three other motorcycle riders call earlier that day, same problem. So I assume those readers are not very reliable.
I don't know if NTTA requires this for TollTag holders, but in Kansas we K-Tag holders have to register our vehicle license plates with KTA to allow video tolling as a backup. Before KTA's implementation of video tolling reached its current state where gates and K-Tag read confirmation lights are removed at the ten most heavily used toll plazas, I frequently had problems with the gate staying down when I passed the reader at 30 or faster (speed limit 20).
I suspect, but have not been able to prove, that KTA was trying to use the readers for backdoor speed enforcement: go much faster than 20 and lose the convenience of having a K-Tag. (Spec sheets for commercially available readers are on the Web [example (https://www.transcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Encompass-6-Multi-Protocol-Reader.pdf)] but do not give an idea of how tunable they are.)
It has also been suggested that KTA is using inferior reader equipment "because Kansas is cheap." Again, I am not sure I could prove this because KTA's construction plans for electronic tolling facilities do not include specs for the reader equipment, which KTA installs itself once the contractor finishes building the gantries etc., and I don't think KTA would have to issue a RFP or bid solicitation if the cost of the equipment falls under a procurement threshold for over-the-counter purchases.
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 05:42:02 PMJust keep your accounts current, keep your information up-to-date and be responsible.
Periodic financial
and technical audit is a good idea. Besides 1995hoo's suggestion of detouring through a conventional plaza every so often for a "lights check," it is also a good idea to log all turnpike trips on GPS and compare the toll bills to the GPS logs. I have, for example, a bill from Kansas that says I got on the Turnpike at Haysville/Derby while the GPS log for the same trip shows I got on at South Wichita (KTA effectively gave me three miles for free in this instance, but with glitchy equipment mistakes can go the other way).
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 05:42:02 PM
The issues I had with my transponder that was on the fritz from Ohio, NYSTA was more than willing to work with me to resolve some an issue relating to a charge. And to my surprise, I received no penalties or interest charges. Your mileage may vary, of course.
But considering that someone had to dip into the IRA to pay a penalty, then it's more than likely that the driver was ignoring the letters, or didn't have current contact information registered with the agency, or was refusing to pay the initial penalties.
It's no different than a collection agency being summoned for -well- overdue payments.
Just keep your accounts current, keep your information up-to-date and be responsible.
If you look at related stories, there are more than a few very nasty situations - mostly along the lines of "I never saw the bill, and then..". Hard to believe someone living near the bridge didn't have a second thought about those tolls - but toll collectors also play it very hard:
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2018/02/15/cashless-tolls-ashlee-delgado/1084058001/
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2018/02/14/cashless-toll-fees-car-impounded/312780002/
Sounds to me as if a commercial operation is not playing honest, while acting under government umbrella.
ANd yes, this
is a private for-profit operation. If the goal is to actually collect tolls, a bit of additional effort could be justified. But - behold! - as of right now collection rate is over 100%, meaning fines and fees more than cover whatever goes uncollected. Sounds like a nice way to get extra money..
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2018/01/25/conduent-cashless-tolling/1061583001/
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2017/12/18/tappan-zee-bridge-cashless-tolls/951540001/
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2018, 06:36:52 PM
Quote from: leroys73 on February 20, 2018, 02:58:41 PMI ran into a similar thing in Kansas. Their reader did not read the toll NTTA toll tag on my motorcycle. It is supposed to be good in Texas, Oklahoma, and Kansas. I got a bill and a ticket. I called them. When the lady heard me say motorcycle she said she had three other motorcycle riders call earlier that day, same problem. So I assume those readers are not very reliable.
I don't know if NTTA requires this for TollTag holders, but in Kansas we K-Tag holders have to register our vehicle license plates with KTA to allow video tolling as a backup. Before KTA's implementation of video tolling reached its current state where gates and K-Tag read confirmation lights are removed at the ten most heavily used toll plazas, I frequently had problems with the gate staying down when I passed the reader at 30 or faster (speed limit 20).
I suspect, but have not been able to prove, that KTA was trying to use the readers for backdoor speed enforcement: go much faster than 20 and lose the convenience of having a K-Tag. (Spec sheets for commercially available readers are on the Web [example (https://www.transcore.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Encompass-6-Multi-Protocol-Reader.pdf)] but do not give an idea of how tunable they are.)
It has also been suggested that KTA is using inferior reader equipment "because Kansas is cheap." Again, I am not sure I could prove this because KTA's construction plans for electronic tolling facilities do not include specs for the reader equipment, which KTA installs itself once the contractor finishes building the gantries etc., and I don't think KTA would have to issue a RFP or bid solicitation if the cost of the equipment falls under a procurement threshold for over-the-counter purchases.
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 05:42:02 PMJust keep your accounts current, keep your information up-to-date and be responsible.
Periodic financial and technical audit is a good idea. Besides 1995hoo's suggestion of detouring through a conventional plaza every so often for a "lights check," it is also a good idea to log all turnpike trips on GPS and compare the toll bills to the GPS logs. I have, for example, a bill from Kansas that says I got on the Turnpike at Haysville/Derby while the GPS log for the same trip shows I got on at South Wichita (KTA effectively gave me three miles for free in this instance, but with glitchy equipment mistakes can go the other way).
The IL tollway gives you the option (or forces you, I don't remember) of creating an account on their website for your transponder/vehicle so you can track every roll your transponder goes through. Not sure if every agency does this but I find this a lot easier than going through the cash lanes every few months.
Quote from: kalvado on February 20, 2018, 06:38:04 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 05:42:02 PM
The issues I had with my transponder that was on the fritz from Ohio, NYSTA was more than willing to work with me to resolve some an issue relating to a charge. And to my surprise, I received no penalties or interest charges. Your mileage may vary, of course.
But considering that someone had to dip into the IRA to pay a penalty, then it's more than likely that the driver was ignoring the letters, or didn't have current contact information registered with the agency, or was refusing to pay the initial penalties.
It's no different than a collection agency being summoned for -well- overdue payments.
Just keep your accounts current, keep your information up-to-date and be responsible.
If you look at related stories, there are more than a few very nasty situations - mostly along the lines of "I never saw the bill, and then..". Hard to believe someone living near the bridge didn't have a second thought about those tolls - but toll collectors also play it very hard:
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2018/02/15/cashless-tolls-ashlee-delgado/1084058001/
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2018/02/14/cashless-toll-fees-car-impounded/312780002/
Sounds to me as if a commercial operation is not playing honest, while acting under government umbrella.
ANd yes, this is a private for-profit operation. If the goal is to actually collect tolls, a bit of additional effort could be justified. But - behold! - as of right now collection rate is over 100%, meaning fines and fees more than cover whatever goes uncollected. Sounds like a nice way to get extra money..
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2018/01/25/conduent-cashless-tolling/1061583001/
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2017/12/18/tappan-zee-bridge-cashless-tolls/951540001/
All I had to do was read one article to find:
"The end of January, Ritchie said she went through the Thruway's cashless tolls amnesty program, paying the $790 the Thruway Authority said she owed to clear away the violations."
So, she had $790 in outstanding tolls that she didn't pay. No reason was given. Considering that the Thruway has no physical barrier to entry, she probably just kept passing through the EZ-Pass lanes even though the yellow light at the booth would have indicated that the EZ-Pass account was in trouble. At that point, she should have consulted EZ-Pass customer care, which is located in the service areas, or by calling them, to resolve the issue before it compounded.
The other issues are irrelevant to the Thruway Authority.
Because she let her account lapse for -so long-, her account went to collections. In essence, her account was sold for pennies on the dollar to a company that will do anything to collect what is owed to them. Find the car, tow the car, and bill her for impound fees, fees for missing payments, fees for anything. Some of it is shady, but it's not on the Thruway Authority, it's on the collection agency.
Towing companies are often suspect, but that's what happens when you are delinquent and your car is impounded because you had $790 in overdue fines. It's never great dealing with towing companies.
She also let her insurance lapse.
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 20, 2018, 06:38:04 PM
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 05:42:02 PM
The issues I had with my transponder that was on the fritz from Ohio, NYSTA was more than willing to work with me to resolve some an issue relating to a charge. And to my surprise, I received no penalties or interest charges. Your mileage may vary, of course.
But considering that someone had to dip into the IRA to pay a penalty, then it's more than likely that the driver was ignoring the letters, or didn't have current contact information registered with the agency, or was refusing to pay the initial penalties.
It's no different than a collection agency being summoned for -well- overdue payments.
Just keep your accounts current, keep your information up-to-date and be responsible.
If you look at related stories, there are more than a few very nasty situations - mostly along the lines of "I never saw the bill, and then..". Hard to believe someone living near the bridge didn't have a second thought about those tolls - but toll collectors also play it very hard:
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2018/02/15/cashless-tolls-ashlee-delgado/1084058001/
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/tappan-zee-bridge/2018/02/14/cashless-toll-fees-car-impounded/312780002/
Sounds to me as if a commercial operation is not playing honest, while acting under government umbrella.
ANd yes, this is a private for-profit operation. If the goal is to actually collect tolls, a bit of additional effort could be justified. But - behold! - as of right now collection rate is over 100%, meaning fines and fees more than cover whatever goes uncollected. Sounds like a nice way to get extra money..
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/transit/2018/01/25/conduent-cashless-tolling/1061583001/
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/investigations/2017/12/18/tappan-zee-bridge-cashless-tolls/951540001/
All I had to do was read one article to find:
"The end of January, Ritchie said she went through the Thruway's cashless tolls amnesty program, paying the $790 the Thruway Authority said she owed to clear away the violations."
So, she had $790 in outstanding tolls that she didn't pay. No reason was given. Considering that the Thruway has no physical barrier to entry, she probably just kept passing through the EZ-Pass lanes even though the yellow light at the booth would have indicated that the EZ-Pass account was in trouble. At that point, she should have consulted EZ-Pass customer care, which is located in the service areas, or by calling them, to resolve the issue before it compounded.
The other issues are irrelevant to the Thruway Authority.
Because she let her account lapse for -so long-, her account went to collections. In essence, her account was sold for pennies on the dollar to a company that will do anything to collect what is owed to them. Find the car, tow the car, and bill her for impound fees, fees for missing payments, fees for anything. Some of it is shady, but it's not on the Thruway Authority, it's on the collection agency.
Towing companies are often suspect, but that's what happens when you are delinquent and your car is impounded because you had $790 in overdue fines. It's never great dealing with towing companies.
She also let her insurance lapse.
This is mostly about open-lane toll on Tappan Zee bridge, no lights no nothing.
And we're talking about plenty of people here:
Quote
To date, the DMV has received 8,262 requests for suspensions from tolling authorities and approved 4,976. Of those, 556 suspensions were sought by the MTA; 499 by the Port Authority, and 3,921 by the Thruway Authority......
Under the new state regulation, the DMV can suspend the registration of motorists who fail to pay three or more toll violations within five years, or for commercial vehicles fail to pay $200 in tolls within five years.
Of course, some of those are people who knew they are gambling the system; but some are honestly confused.
Gotcha, but even still, it's on the driver and primary account holder to be responsible - not the Thruway Authority or the collections agency.
And those suspensions that the Thruway Authority requested are quite low: 8,262 requests for what I assume is FY 2017, considering how many people drive the Thruway each day. There is no way of knowing how many of those travellers are unique drivers.
And I get it, some are going to be confused. With a ticket and change/dollars, it's a physical transaction. That goes out the door when it's all electronic - especially with open-road tolling. It's like electronic bank transfers: I honestly hate having electronic fund transfers that are automatic, despite a "discount," because I always forget when it comes out of my pocket. When I manually write a check, I commit to a log that the check is going to a destination and that I should prepare myself for a debit.
Quote from: seicer on February 20, 2018, 08:18:48 PM
Gotcha, but even still, it's on the driver and primary account holder to be responsible - not the Thruway Authority or the collections agency.
And those suspensions that the Thruway Authority requested are quite low: 8,262 requests for what I assume is FY 2017, considering how many people drive the Thruway each day. There is no way of knowing how many of those travellers are unique drivers.
And I get it, some are going to be confused. With a ticket and change/dollars, it's a physical transaction. That goes out the door when it's all electronic - especially with open-road tolling. It's like electronic bank transfers: I honestly hate having electronic fund transfers that are automatic, despite a "discount," because I always forget when it comes out of my pocket. When I manually write a check, I commit to a log that the check is going to a destination and that I should prepare myself for a debit.
You see, my big concern is that a small charge can leads to big penalties and even bigger consequences - yet many people report not getting original bill, and things fall apart from there. There is same tune regarding E-470 in Denver, for example - first bill to show up is the one already with penalties. After a Florida trip, I got a trickle of toll charges for rental car coming in for 3 months - and fortunately my credit card expiration date was 5 months after the trip. I got 7 EZpass charges on IL Tollway for the round-trip last year, and I still don't know if 8th is still lingering somewhere or gantry in road work zone was deactivated.
My feeling is that toll agencies still can do a bit more in order to get those acting in good faith to actually pay the bill without going bankrupt over charges. Are they willing to? Seemingly not...
Quote from: kalvado on February 20, 2018, 08:31:27 PMYou see, my big concern is that a small charge can leads to big penalties and even bigger consequences - yet many people report not getting original bill, and things fall apart from there. There is same tune regarding E-470 in Denver, for example - first bill to show up is the one already with penalties. After a Florida trip, I got a trickle of toll charges for rental car coming in for 3 months - and fortunately my credit card expiration date was 5 months after the trip. I got 7 EZpass charges on IL Tollway for the round-trip last year, and I still don't know if 8th is still lingering somewhere or gantry in road work zone was deactivated.
My feeling is that toll agencies still can do a bit more in order to get those acting in good faith to actually pay the bill without going bankrupt over charges. Are they willing to? Seemingly not...
I have often suggested that there should be a tollpayer's bill of rights to curb abuses such as hoarding license plate video until data for a fresh state comes online and then hitting cars registered in that state with toll plus violation charges plus interest (toll agencies in Texas have reportedly done this); sending a violation notice in the first instance; failing to process tolls promptly; etc. One key provision of such a tollpayer's bill of rights is unpaid tolls, and any violations arising therefrom, aging out of collectability when the agency fails to make reasonable efforts to collect. (This is similar in concept to statutes of limitation, or the doctrine of laches in equity law.)
In the meantime, my personal policy is not to use a pay-by-plate toll facility
at all without establishing in advance that I can settle the toll online, preferably by setting up a time window in the future during which I authorize my credit card to accept toll charges incurred by a vehicle with my license plate number. This is how I paid toll on the Golden Gate Bridge in 2014 (it is still the only pay-by-plate facility I have used).
Before K-Tag became interoperable with the Texas toll agencies, I investigated the possibility of using NTTA toll roads on a pay-by-plate basis (NTTA calls its pay-by-plate program ZipCash) as part of a journey to San Antonio. When I discovered that billing is in arrears only, I immediately rejected it as an option and avoided NTTA facilities altogether.
Because toll agencies have the ability to hoard video whether they choose to do so or not, I do not try to game pay-by-plate by using the facility and hoping the agency won't be able to access my license plate data. And if I am a regular user of a particular toll facility, I prefer to have a transponder so that a transponder read rather than license plate imaging is the primary point of reference for billing. It reduces the likelihood that I will be slapped with a violation fine for not paying because the plate design was misread and the first bill went to someone with the same plate number in another state or in the same state but on a different base (Kansas, for example, repeats license plate numbers across multiple bases, which I think is stupid). It ensures that the toll will be paid automatically and my account will be kept in good order through auto-replenishment. It also creates an audit trail that is available almost immediately; in contrast, many pay-by-plate programs do not share the license plate imagery with the customer at all.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 20, 2018, 11:10:24 AM
Indiana has credit card readers at the cashless lanes, though I'm not sure if those are there for a malfunctioning transponder, a transponder with no money on it, malfunctioning equipment that can't read the transponder, or all three. It's still not quite a perfect solution when each car in the lane has to spend 5-10 minutes on the phone completing the transaction.
We've had an EZ-Pass for 6 years and I dread to think what will happen when the battery dies and we don't know it's dead.
I've been the victim of malfunctioning Indiana Toll Road E-ZPass equipment before. What a pain in the ass. The only reader at an entrance at US 131/IN 13 was not functioning so there was a guy handing out tickets (preprinted ones apparently for just such an occasion with a fake date). Of course, exiting the highway at the Portage plaza, I tried to conceal the E-ZPass and pay, only to get dinged with an E-ZPass toll from the Ohio line as well. Not helping was that it was a MassPike E-ZPass tag and the Indiana Toll Road people didn't care. It only got sorted out when I disputed the credit card charge.
As far as battery life, I still have my Massachusetts tag despite no longer living there, because I got it when I did. I exchanged it at the Sumner Tunnel Fast Lane (now E-ZPass) office in East Boston when it reached 10 years old and I happened to be in town, for free. Keeping the Massachusetts one is advantageous; still no monthly fee. But it is necessary to trade in every decade or so to keep from getting dinged for non-reads, especially in a rental car.
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 20, 2018, 11:34:41 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 20, 2018, 11:10:24 AM
Indiana has credit card readers at the cashless lanes, though I'm not sure if those are there for a malfunctioning transponder, a transponder with no money on it, malfunctioning equipment that can't read the transponder, or all three. It's still not quite a perfect solution when each car in the lane has to spend 5-10 minutes on the phone completing the transaction.
We've had an EZ-Pass for 6 years and I dread to think what will happen when the battery dies and we don't know it's dead.
I've been the victim of malfunctioning Indiana Toll Road E-ZPass equipment before. What a pain in the ass. The only reader at an entrance at US 131/IN 13 was not functioning so there was a guy handing out tickets (preprinted ones apparently for just such an occasion with a fake date). Of course, exiting the highway at the Portage plaza, I tried to conceal the E-ZPass and pay, only to get dinged with an E-ZPass toll from the Ohio line as well. Not helping was that it was a MassPike E-ZPass tag and the Indiana Toll Road people didn't care. It only got sorted out when I disputed the credit card charge.
As far as battery life, I still have my Massachusetts tag despite no longer living there, because I got it when I did. I exchanged it at the Sumner Tunnel Fast Lane (now E-ZPass) office in East Boston when it reached 10 years old and I happened to be in town, for free. Keeping the Massachusetts one is advantageous; still no monthly fee. But it is necessary to trade in every decade or so to keep from getting dinged for non-reads, especially in a rental car.
I just remembered the time I entered IN from OH in a moving truck and couldn't reach the toll ticket. When I called for help, the solution was to tell the toll taker at the westernmost toll barrier that so-and-so had let me in.
Indiana.
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 20, 2018, 11:34:41 PMAs far as battery life, I still have my Massachusetts tag despite no longer living there, because I got it when I did. I exchanged it at the Sumner Tunnel Fast Lane (now E-ZPass) office in East Boston when it reached 10 years old and I happened to be in town, for free. Keeping the Massachusetts one is advantageous; still no monthly fee. But it is necessary to trade in every decade or so to keep from getting dinged for non-reads, especially in a rental car.
From what I've heard, the
average battery life on a transponder (regardless of agency) is about 7 years.
My PA E-ZPass transponder was over 7 years old when I noticed that I was no longer receiving the usual
EZ PASS PAID displays at the NJ Turnpike and Garden State Parkway toll booths. I called the PTC to investigate and was told that my transponder (& battery) was old and had to be replaced. They sent me a new one (free of charge), I mailed back the old one (such was the condition for not being charged); and that was that.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 21, 2018, 10:16:08 AM
I just remembered the time I entered IN from OH in a moving truck and couldn't reach the toll ticket. When I called for help, the solution was to tell the toll taker at the westernmost toll barrier that so-and-so had let me in.
Reminds me of the time in the pre E-ZPass days when I pulled up to the automatic toll ticket dispenser on the MassPike in Weston, only to discover it had run out of tickets. Got the attention of the plaza supervisor by honking my horn a few times. A flunky then came out with a ticket and a cone - he handed me the ticket and dropped the cone behind my car to close the lane.
Quote from: J N Winkler on February 20, 2018, 10:35:41 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 20, 2018, 08:31:27 PMYou see, my big concern is that a small charge can leads to big penalties and even bigger consequences - yet many people report not getting original bill, and things fall apart from there. There is same tune regarding E-470 in Denver, for example - first bill to show up is the one already with penalties. After a Florida trip, I got a trickle of toll charges for rental car coming in for 3 months - and fortunately my credit card expiration date was 5 months after the trip. I got 7 EZpass charges on IL Tollway for the round-trip last year, and I still don't know if 8th is still lingering somewhere or gantry in road work zone was deactivated.
My feeling is that toll agencies still can do a bit more in order to get those acting in good faith to actually pay the bill without going bankrupt over charges. Are they willing to? Seemingly not...
I have often suggested that there should be a tollpayer's bill of rights to curb abuses such as hoarding license plate video until data for a fresh state comes online and then hitting cars registered in that state with toll plus violation charges plus interest (toll agencies in Texas have reportedly done this); sending a violation notice in the first instance; failing to process tolls promptly; etc. One key provision of such a tollpayer's bill of rights is unpaid tolls, and any violations arising therefrom, aging out of collectability when the agency fails to make reasonable efforts to collect. (This is similar in concept to statutes of limitation, or the doctrine of laches in equity law.)
In the meantime, my personal policy is not to use a pay-by-plate toll facility at all without establishing in advance that I can settle the toll online, preferably by setting up a time window in the future during which I authorize my credit card to accept toll charges incurred by a vehicle with my license plate number. This is how I paid toll on the Golden Gate Bridge in 2014 (it is still the only pay-by-plate facility I have used).
Before K-Tag became interoperable with the Texas toll agencies, I investigated the possibility of using NTTA toll roads on a pay-by-plate basis (NTTA calls its pay-by-plate program ZipCash) as part of a journey to San Antonio. When I discovered that billing is in arrears only, I immediately rejected it as an option and avoided NTTA facilities altogether.
Because toll agencies have the ability to hoard video whether they choose to do so or not, I do not try to game pay-by-plate by using the facility and hoping the agency won't be able to access my license plate data. And if I am a regular user of a particular toll facility, I prefer to have a transponder so that a transponder read rather than license plate imaging is the primary point of reference for billing. It reduces the likelihood that I will be slapped with a violation fine for not paying because the plate design was misread and the first bill went to someone with the same plate number in another state or in the same state but on a different base (Kansas, for example, repeats license plate numbers across multiple bases, which I think is stupid). It ensures that the toll will be paid automatically and my account will be kept in good order through auto-replenishment. It also creates an audit trail that is available almost immediately; in contrast, many pay-by-plate programs do not share the license plate imagery with the customer at all.
Good point, but probably such thing has to happen on federal level - states show little interest in rectifying the issue. But I'm afraid feds will have jurisdiction problems. Regulate how out-of-state motorists are treated under interstate commerce clause - and then hope that in-state treatment would be at least as good?
After going a few years after not having used mine, I was apprehensive if mine would work when i was on some toll facilities last year. It worked fine, although I think it's about 10 years old and the battery can't have a lot of life left. I probably should call WV and ask.
And I'm still waiting for a bill from the Bush Turnpike in Dallas from eight years ago.
Quote from: kalvado on February 21, 2018, 10:46:01 AMGood point, but probably such thing has to happen on federal level - states show little interest in rectifying the issue. But I'm afraid feds will have jurisdiction problems. Regulate how out-of-state motorists are treated under interstate commerce clause - and then hope that in-state treatment would be at least as good?
I think it would definitely require an Act of Congress to institute a tollpayer's bill of rights. As for the Interstate Commerce Clause applying narrowly to toll road users from out of state, I think in-state toll road users might be able to benefit from substantive due process since to extend more favorable treatment to out-of-state drivers would amount to imposing a disadvantage without due process of law. Even if that legal theory doesn't hold up in the courts, toll agencies would be under considerable pressure from in-state customers (who are also voters) to extend to them the same protections that are afforded to out-of-state drivers.
The idea of discriminating against out-of-state drivers might run afoul of the "Dormant Commerce Clause," a principle of constitutional law that says states can't discriminate against interstate commerce by favoring in-state commerce.
A recent example was a case where one of the federal courts (I forget which one) ruled that states cannot prohibit out-of-state wineries from shipping direct to customers but allow in-state wineries to do so (example: if I could have wine shipped to me from a Virginia winery but Virginia wouldn't allow wineries in any other state to ship to me). Of course, this sort of thing can backfire if the state describes to screw over in-staters equally with out-of-staters!
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2018, 02:18:38 PM
The idea of discriminating against out-of-state drivers might run afoul of the "Dormant Commerce Clause," a principle of constitutional law that says states can't discriminate against interstate commerce by favoring in-state commerce.
We're talking about something different. What if federal government choose to implement some uniform rules on toll collection? Because, you know, states seem to be doing a rough job. Would there be any legal standing for such idea?
First thought is that toll of out of staters can possibly be regulated by federal agency. In-state? I doubt so.
Quote from: kalvado on February 21, 2018, 02:23:05 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 21, 2018, 02:18:38 PM
The idea of discriminating against out-of-state drivers might run afoul of the "Dormant Commerce Clause," a principle of constitutional law that says states can't discriminate against interstate commerce by favoring in-state commerce.
We're talking about something different. What if federal government choose to implement some uniform rules on toll collection? Because, you know, states seem to be doing a rough job. Would there be any legal standing for such idea?
First thought is that toll of out of staters can possibly be regulated by federal agency. In-state? I doubt so.
There's precedent for finding seemingly purely in-state conduct to be "Interstate commerce." The Supreme Court's Heart of Atlanta Motel case (involving a motel that didn't allow blacks) is a good example.
But setting that aside, the way the US government can get around it is to link highway funding or something similar to the uniform toll collection rule, just like they did with the speed limit and the drinking age.
NTTA has committed every kind of customer abuse, such as mailing violation notices without sending a regular bill first and delaying payment processing until after the due date and then sending a violation notice for late fees. But they even got creative, too. In the past, they used single-month billing. A driver who hadn't been on the toll roads in a while may get a bill for one month's tolls and pay it and then get a bill for another month's tolls and assume it was a copy of the bill he'd already paid because everyone in the world sends bill for the total amount due, not for what's due just for a single month. They now use standard total-due billing.
As part of the toll payers' bill of rights, I think late fees should be revenue neutral, limited to the cost of recovering payment. There's no reason a single late payment should result in thousands of dollars in late fees. They could send someone to your house to collect for less than that.
I wouldn't call it a "horror story" per se, it was only like $8.00 but its the principle of the thing that pisses me off. I used the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel one time on one of my extended cruises with my wife. It was a last minute decision and I knew from a thread on this topic that I would be able to pay by plate and that it would be the full price. Fine I'm good with that. I have no reason to have a reader, I might end up on a toll facility of some kind once every decade or so.
When I got home I pulled up their site and I confirmed that I had been right, that I would get a bill in the mail and as long as I paid that I'd be good.
Fast forward 40 days later I finally get a notice from them. Only, its not a bill, its a late notice, and I now have to pay a late fee. That's funny because the only reason I'm late is because they haven't sent me a bill.I thought about calling but I decided it just wasn't worth the headache and getting transferred around and all of that, it's only $8 so I paid it.
Its situations like this is why I don't like automated anything when it comes to paying for things. I still believe there should be a way for me to pay right when I use the facility, just like there is a cashier at the store when I walk in to buy an item. Heck even when I do buy something online, I still have to give my credit card info and I am charged right then, not some time in the future when I am not thinking about that anymore.
I understand the many arguments to the contrary and yes cashless tolling does help out a ton traffic wise compared to the way it used to be. But I am beginning to wonder if the capping the many opportunities for abuse is more important than free flowing traffic.
Last year, the NJ Turnpike Authority received a petition for rulemaking from two people of the general public challenging the $50.00 administrative fee tacked on to any EZ Pass violation in NJ as excessive The petitioners said that the rule be changed to allow only a fee "based upon the actual cost of processing and collecting individual violations."
As this was an actual petition, in this case state law requires the authority to review their costs and procedures to determine if the $50 fee was excessive.
Here's the minutes of the meeting that referenced this case: http://www.njta.com/media/3502/bm_minutes-_2017_11-21.pdf . Page 11 of the PDF provides a brief summary and conclusion. Page 33 starts the more in-depth review of the fee.
In short: When the fee was increased to $50 in 2011, the actual costs to the Turnpike authority was...anyone wanna take a guess? $51.36! However, that was just a quick and dirty estimate. Due to this petition, the Turnpike did a more thorough analysis of its costs, which utilized the 2011 review. The actual costs to the Turnpike to collect a toll from someone who didn't have a legit EZ Pass account or who sped thru the toll lane without paying: $91!!! So the Turnpike is actually losing money, even with the $50 fee. The Authority then went to review their actual costs in today's pricing. Due to numerous factors, the cost to the authority actually went down a bit, to $80/violation.
Now, this seems hard to believe, mostly because people are just going to look at one thing - the toll cost. There's still employees that have been hired to review the violations, computer equipment, in-lane electronics, etc, etc. Really, when number crunchers analyze numbers, they go down to every nut and bolt that was used to determine the actual value. And the actual value usually surprises people.
Even something like going to the supermarket - most of us will say, we spent $100. For a company though, they're going to say: You spent $100, plus gas in your car, plus depreciation on the vehicle, plus the time you spent shopping that they're paying you for, plus the time to put the groceries away, plus the cost of the cabinets and fridges, and it can go on and on, depending how meticulous they want to be about such costs and how they're actually allocated.
Thus, a company's actual costs are generally going to appear much higher than what most people think they are.
Now, this all said, a late fee is different. There's still various costs, such as reports that need to be run, additional mailings, and even things like interest that the agency could have been earning on the money if the money came in on time. But that will no way, no how, approach the thousands of dollars being demanded in some instances.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 22, 2018, 08:55:42 AM
Last year, the NJ Turnpike Authority received a petition for rulemaking from two people of the general public challenging the $50.00 administrative fee tacked on to any EZ Pass violation in NJ as excessive The petitioners said that the rule be changed to allow only a fee "based upon the actual cost of processing and collecting individual violations."
As this was an actual petition, in this case state law requires the authority to review their costs and procedures to determine if the $50 fee was excessive.
Here's the minutes of the meeting that referenced this case: http://www.njta.com/media/3502/bm_minutes-_2017_11-21.pdf . Page 11 of the PDF provides a brief summary and conclusion. Page 33 starts the more in-depth review of the fee.
In short: When the fee was increased to $50 in 2011, the actual costs to the Turnpike authority was...anyone wanna take a guess? $51.36! However, that was just a quick and dirty estimate. Due to this petition, the Turnpike did a more thorough analysis of its costs, which utilized the 2011 review. The actual costs to the Turnpike to collect a toll from someone who didn't have a legit EZ Pass account or who sped thru the toll lane without paying: $91!!! So the Turnpike is actually losing money, even with the $50 fee. The Authority then went to review their actual costs in today's pricing. Due to numerous factors, the cost to the authority actually went down a bit, to $80/violation.
Now, this seems hard to believe, mostly because people are just going to look at one thing - the toll cost. There's still employees that have been hired to review the violations, computer equipment, in-lane electronics, etc, etc. Really, when number crunchers analyze numbers, they go down to every nut and bolt that was used to determine the actual value. And the actual value usually surprises people.
Even something like going to the supermarket - most of us will say, we spent $100. For a company though, they're going to say: You spent $100, plus gas in your car, plus depreciation on the vehicle, plus the time you spent shopping that they're paying you for, plus the time to put the groceries away, plus the cost of the cabinets and fridges, and it can go on and on, depending how meticulous they want to be about such costs and how they're actually allocated.
Thus, a company's actual costs are generally going to appear much higher than what most people think they are.
Now, this all said, a late fee is different. There's still various costs, such as reports that need to be run, additional mailings, and even things like interest that the agency could have been earning on the money if the money came in on time. But that will no way, no how, approach the thousands of dollars being demanded in some instances.
Late fees are intended to be deterrents to paying bills late. That's why your credit card has one, and why I'm assessed a fee if I pay my rent late. If they're too low, then they're not an effective deterrent, and people will just pay their bills late.
To me this seems pretty simple.
Be it toll by plate, or random tax (red light or "speed" cameras) those in charge should be given 2 choices:
- Well over 99% accuracy, with the burden of proof on the biller in any dispute.
or
- Any dispute between the motorist and the biller is a PRIVATE matter handled in CIVIL court with no access to suspension of a person's RIGHT to drive.
That simple.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 22, 2018, 08:55:42 AM
Last year, the NJ Turnpike Authority received a petition for rulemaking from two people of the general public challenging the $50.00 administrative fee tacked on to any EZ Pass violation in NJ as excessive The petitioners said that the rule be changed to allow only a fee "based upon the actual cost of processing and collecting individual violations."
As this was an actual petition, in this case state law requires the authority to review their costs and procedures to determine if the $50 fee was excessive.
Here's the minutes of the meeting that referenced this case: http://www.njta.com/media/3502/bm_minutes-_2017_11-21.pdf . Page 11 of the PDF provides a brief summary and conclusion. Page 33 starts the more in-depth review of the fee.
$50-80 means that they allocate 0.5-1 hr of employee time per violation, plus overheads. which seems a bit excessive.
Their spreadsheets are almost impossible to read; an old one for $51 is a bit clearer.
30% of that amount goes straight to vendor. OK, maybe..
Next biggest line is the cost of issuing 3.5 million "initial APR" - sounds as initial non-bill case, at $3/piece. Later they reduce 5-fold - I assume 80% of non-reads are good faith situations. But - behold - entire cost is allocated to 650k of violations at $15/case. Hmmmmm..
Overall, the way I look at it is top down.
Numbers below are completely random, do not include different distance traveled, vehicle class etc.
But assume you run a toll road for a cost of $500M/year , and you have $100M drivers/year - and need to spread costs (and profit) over those drivers.
Of those 100 million drivers, 90 million pay without a problem, 9 million get a problem while acting in good faith, 900 000 try to gamble the system - but fail, and 100 000 end up not paying at all. How do you allocate the cost of road in "fair" manner - given that last 10 million drivers cost more than 90 problem-free million?
Not collecting problem tolls and charging a bit more to those doing good job just encourages violators - even if not prosecuting them is cheaper...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 22, 2018, 08:55:42 AMNow, this seems hard to believe, mostly because people are just going to look at one thing - the toll cost. There's still employees that have been hired to review the violations, computer equipment, in-lane electronics, etc, etc. Really, when number crunchers analyze numbers, they go down to every nut and bolt that was used to determine the actual value. And the actual value usually surprises people.
Even something like going to the supermarket - most of us will say, we spent $100. For a company though, they're going to say: You spent $100, plus gas in your car, plus depreciation on the vehicle, plus the time you spent shopping that they're paying you for, plus the time to put the groceries away, plus the cost of the cabinets and fridges, and it can go on and on, depending how meticulous they want to be about such costs and how they're actually allocated.
The flip side: detailed cost analyses of this kind open the door to goldbricking, especially if the goal is to defend a position the agency has previously staked out and not to refine business processes so that the same outputs are purchased at lower resource cost.
I have seen this behavior from public agencies that are subject to freedom-of-information requirements but are determined not to disclose anything to the public and argue that, e.g., they have to charge a $25/hour fee for staff to supervise a member of the public as he or she examines documents in a locked room.
Quote from: slorydn1 on February 22, 2018, 05:08:51 AM
I wouldn't call it a "horror story" per se, it was only like $8.00 but its the principle of the thing that pisses me off. I used the Hampton Roads Bridge Tunnel one time on one of my extended cruises with my wife. It was a last minute decision and I knew from a thread on this topic that I would be able to pay by plate and that it would be the full price. Fine I'm good with that. I have no reason to have a reader, I might end up on a toll facility of some kind once every decade or so.
When I got home I pulled up their site and I confirmed that I had been right, that I would get a bill in the mail and as long as I paid that I'd be good.
Fast forward 40 days later I finally get a notice from them. Only, its not a bill, its a late notice, and I now have to pay a late fee. That's funny because the only reason I'm late is because they haven't sent me a bill.I thought about calling but I decided it just wasn't worth the headache and getting transferred around and all of that, it's only $8 so I paid it.
Its situations like this is why I don't like automated anything when it comes to paying for things. I still believe there should be a way for me to pay right when I use the facility, just like there is a cashier at the store when I walk in to buy an item. Heck even when I do buy something online, I still have to give my credit card info and I am charged right then, not some time in the future when I am not thinking about that anymore.
I understand the many arguments to the contrary and yes cashless tolling does help out a ton traffic wise compared to the way it used to be. But I am beginning to wonder if the capping the many opportunities for abuse is more important than free flowing traffic.
Stuff like this is the reason why I will never, ever use toll by plate. A toll facility better take E-ZPass or have cash booths, because otherwise I won't use it.
I already replied referencing toll roads. However, by far my worst experience has been 20 minutes from my home at the DFW airport. My wife flies a lot and I usually take her to DFW. I have a NTTA tag on all of our vehicles. About half the time the gate will not go up. I follow the directions given. That is I stop behind the line until the car clears in front of me then I stop where I am supposed to stop for my tag to be read. It sure is frustrating especially since the nearest employee is a few lanes over and really don't care. I sat there one time for more than five minutes with people behind me pissed. I beeped my horn and yelled until finally someone came over.
Discussion of Audi self-paying tolls moved to https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22340.0