What are some cases where there are two left turn lanes that funnel into a single through lane after the turn?
NY 260 at NY 31 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1984337,-77.899333,3a,75y,187.84h,84.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHt983PpUbQNjYgg4LKmSGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Brockport, NY
Hwy 6 at Hwy 5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3119408,-79.9171564,3a,75y,311.41h,94.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR46W2g5YCjTGb44EVF-gsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Hamilton, ON
NY 15A at I-390 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1078129,-77.6160271,3a,75y,178.33h,75.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7Rr_bM16M2la8L7rKQof1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Brighton, NY
It's hard to get both the double turn lane and the following lane merge in a single street view image, so you'll need to pan around the corner to see the lane drops in each case. The only criteria is that the lane drop must be within 1/3 mile of the intersection.
What are your thoughts about these scenarios? It can come as quite a surprise to come around the corner and find that your lane ends. Further, if volumes warrant two turn lanes, it suggests, to me anyways, that the volume should certainly warrant two lanes on the road you're turning onto.
I don't see it as problematic. It seems like a great solution to add left-turn capacity where you don't have the length for only one left turn lane, but have enough width for two shorter ones. Doing it that way also has the added effect of having a shorter protected left phase, as approximately twice the amount of vehicles can clear the intersection in the same amount of time. The only problem might arise if there isn't enough room past the intersection for efficient merging, but in my experience in these situations, that hasn't been an issue.
It's an IDOT SOP apparently.
I can name two off the top of my head that IDOT very unwisely installed. Left turn from US-30 W to West Frontage Road and from US-30 W to westbound Renwick Road, both in Plainfield, IL, as part of the US-30 widening in the area. Given the way the locals have a lack of merging skills, it's not a wise idea, IMHO.
I see no problem with this setup as well. As mentioned, it allows for shorter green arrow situations.
1/4 to 1/3 mile is a lot of distance from what I'm used to. I've seen them as short as a few skip lines (100 - 200 feet).
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 26, 2018, 01:06:53 PM
I don't see it as problematic. It seems like a great solution to add left-turn capacity where you don't have the length for only one left turn lane, but have enough width for two shorter ones. Doing it that way also has the added effect of having a shorter protected left phase, as approximately twice the amount of vehicles can clear the intersection in the same amount of time. The only problem might arise if there isn't enough room past the intersection for efficient merging, but in my experience in these situations, that hasn't been an issue.
This is exactly the reason they're installed.
Agencies typically have two styles of left turns: single lane pro/per, and double lane pro-only. While I have my reservations (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17051.0) with pro-only double left, a double left turn of any style can double the capacity of a left turn without any additional signal length.
Much like in Illinois (and other parts of the country, I'm sure), WSDOT installs these all the time (
especially at on-ramps). Here's an example: https://goo.gl/geX6oo
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everyone can smoothly merge together.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2018, 01:49:38 PM
I've seen them as short as a few skip lines (100 - 200 feet).
Seeing is believing :-P
I don't have a major beef with this setup, but as I mentioned above, to me it suggests that either a] the signal cycle is too long or b] the lane drop should not be occurring. In the first two links in the OP, for example, I think a widening to four lanes (over a longer distance - perhaps several miles) is in order.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.
It might be somewhat an expectation of the drivers themselves, but it's also simple geometry: drivers in the right lane will create larger gaps than the ones in the left lane due to the fact that the right lane has a longer physical distance to travel. This promotes the creation of gaps for traffic to merge together beyond the turn.
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 02:08:50 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2018, 01:49:38 PM
I've seen them as short as a few skip lines (100 - 200 feet).
Seeing is believing :-P
One very short merge existed in Fife, WA: ~84 feet: https://goo.gl/CKMCZD (removed about a year ago in place of a right turn only)
(https://i.imgur.com/frxFqpu.png)
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 02:08:50 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2018, 01:49:38 PM
I've seen them as short as a few skip lines (100 - 200 feet).
Seeing is believing :-P
I don't have a major beef with this setup, but as I mentioned above, to me it suggests that either a] the signal cycle is too long or b] the lane drop should not be occurring. In the first two links in the OP, for example, I think a widening to four lanes (over a longer distance - perhaps several miles) is in order.
Here's one example that measures in at 230 feet or so.
You don't need several miles after a double turn lane.
Edited for Google Maps Link: https://goo.gl/maps/S6TmRzEXy622
Another pretty short one. The left turn from Main Street onto the Dunsmuir Viaduct in Vancouver: https://goo.gl/aQQaEG
56 feet! (at least to the de facto merge point). I make this left often enough. It can be quite hairy due to the barriers on either edge. The merge used to be wider, but a two-way bike path was installed, narrowing it down considerably.
(https://i.imgur.com/r4jC3VO.png)
There's one turning from WB Franklin Rd to SB Cloverdale Rd in Boise. This intersection was recently re-done and Cloverdale north of Franklin was widened to 5 lanes. I assume the eventual goal is to continue widening it south of Franklin, but that would involve an expensive overpass replacement over I-84, which is probably the reason it's still 2/3 lanes there. I like it, because 80% of the cars pile into the leftmost lane (this applies to traffic turning left from Franklin, and thru traffic on southbound Cloverdale) and I can take the right lane and get through the intersection quicker then just merge in afterwards.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaYB3Q6J.png&hash=75a57fac596005e1b872bcb67fbfbccc4d18bf03)
Google Maps Link (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6041643,-116.3343023,216m/data=!3m1!1e3?authuser=1)
Side note, I don't stop at that gas station anymore, because there is no legal way to exit that gas station onto Cloverdale SB. It's RIRO onto Franklin (both exits!) and Cloverdale, and there's no U-Turns allowed at the signal (though it's not signed to my knowledge, it is illegal in Boise even though it's not illegal at a state level; I've done it and will probably do it in the future when there's no sign, but it is a kind of tight U-turn regardless).
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everyone can smoothly merge together.
[rofl x20]
Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" :biggrin:.
There's one in Southington, CT on CT 10 just north of the I-84 interchange. It's a double left turn onto Spring St. The lanes merge together after about 100 ft, and before a traffic signal where many turn into BJ's. If you look at the picture, the merge point is about even with the Staples building.
https://goo.gl/maps/HyXFUXCWQf32
The ridiculous thing is that you have a double left turn lane to enter Spring St, but a single lane to return to CT 10, which is very frustrating for cars that want to go right on red, but can't when a left turning car or one going straight across prevents them. It often backs up beyond the Staples building, which makes it a nightmare for traffic headed for CT 10 exiting the Chili's/Staples plaza, or for traffic headed either way from the Bertucci's or Bedding Barn on the other side of the road. In the GSV, I'll bet the white SUV and minivan get in a drag race for who gets to the merge point first (a very common occurrence)
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 02:08:50 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2018, 01:49:38 PM
I've seen them as short as a few skip lines (100 - 200 feet).
Seeing is believing :-P
There used to be one with only three skip dashes on NB IL 25 at the southern Stearns Road intersection (Streetview (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9752448,-88.2805203,3a,19y,42.47h,88.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svFmU50CCmNe7V7RbWZoRCA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)), but that stretch has since been widened.
Then there's IL 62 eastbound to both SB and NB IL 53, where there are no skip dashes after the turn. Google aerial photo. (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.064064,-88.0309145,287m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en)
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 01:20:22 PM
It's an IDOT SOP apparently.
I can name two off the top of my head that IDOT very unwisely installed. Left turn from US-30 W to West Frontage Road and from US-30 W to westbound Renwick Road, both in Plainfield, IL, as part of the US-30 widening in the area. Given the way the locals have a lack of merging skills, it's not a wise idea, IMHO.
That same IDOT managed to put a SPUI in place at I-80/94 and Torrence where this happens in all four directions. However, the Torrence ones are three lanes to two, so it's probably not what the OP is looking for. The east/west lane drops are on the ramps, and both directions deal with extra merging from both sides as they approach the freeway.
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Agreed. In Chicagoland, I'm not sure many of these people have even noticed a lane has ended. When their lane ends, they never signal and they never look to see if they're cutting someone off.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2018, 02:29:18 PM
Here's one example that measures in at 230 feet or so.
Did you mean to add a link?
QuoteYou don't need several miles after a double turn lane.
Not solely for merging purposes, no. But the fact that two turn lanes are needed suggests that volumes are such that a widening might be in order.
As far as three lanes to two, I won't rule those out. They create their own set of challenges and additional conflict points, so are still relevant. However, what would be
really interesting is three left turn lanes followed by a lane drop. NY 441 does this at I-490, but I think it's more than 1/3 mile.
This one in Sandusky, Ohio lasted only a short while. It was setup when the US 250 (Milan Rd) intersection with Strub Rd was redone a few years ago, but apparently it was causing too many problems, as it has since been converted to a single turn lane by covering the right most left turn lane with white chevrons and bagging its signal.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180227/aa1781ec2550bc2a91435595bde373e4.jpg)
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 07:39:41 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 26, 2018, 02:29:18 PM
Here's one example that measures in at 230 feet or so.
Did you mean to add a link?
QuoteYou don't need several miles after a double turn lane.
Not solely for merging purposes, no. But the fact that two turn lanes are needed suggests that volumes are such that a widening might be in order.
Yep...completely forgot the link: https://goo.gl/maps/S6TmRzEXy622 . Original post has been edited for it as well.
2 turning lanes also allows for a shorter left green arrow time, which gives more time for the opposing thru direction. So the volume of traffic turn left may not warrant 2 thru lanes further down; it's more to assist the road the turning lanes are on.
Here's one: Turning from Shadeland Ave NB to the I-70 WB on-ramp in Indianapolis
https://goo.gl/maps/EjofHF9E8Mn (https://goo.gl/maps/EjofHF9E8Mn)
I can't think of any in my area. If they had these were I live, I feel like everyone would just pile up into the left lane to avoid having to merge. Also, since my area doesn't allow double-permissive-lefts, this would also take away the ability to do a permissive left (which would suck, especially in off-peak hours).
Quote from: 7/8 on February 27, 2018, 07:35:43 AM
I can't think of any in my area.
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 12:58:10 PMHwy 6 at Hwy 5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3119408,-79.9171564,3a,75y,311.41h,94.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR46W2g5YCjTGb44EVF-gsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Hamilton, ON
This is from the OP - does that not qualify as "your area"? ;-)
There's a couple here in Huntsville, AL. First one is at Oakwood Avenue and Lee High Drive for traffic turning from Oakwood Avenue westbound onto I-565 westbound:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7489607,-86.5781313,191m/data=!3m1!1e3
There's also the triple left turn at US 72 and Moores Mill Road where the right-most lane becomes a Right Turn Only Lane about a third of a mile away from the intersection:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.774788,-86.5388384,465m/data=!3m1!1e3
(You'll probably need to turn off 3D imagery on Google Maps satellite to see it, though it's also visible on street view)
The only other one I can think of is at Memorial Parkway and Martin Road, but that's due to construction on the Parkway forcing a lane drop shortly after the intersection for traffic turning south from westbound on Martin Road more than anything else, and it's only temporary.
There's a few of these in the Syracuse area:
These two I know of off the top of my head:
Hiawatha Blvd at I-81 north (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0706937,-76.1674919,19z/data=!3m1!1e3)
Bridge St at I-690 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0583561,-76.0681087,19z/data=!3m1!1e3) (This one is relatively new, and I only know of this one because I recently turned here)
I looked for some more, and I found these:
7th North St at I-81 north (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0887155,-76.1652481,20z/data=!3m1!1e3)
7th North St at I-81 south (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0907748,-76.1686821,20z/data=!3m1!1e3)
West Genesee St at NY 5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0483166,-76.2239427,20z/data=!3m1!1e3) (I forgot about this one since it's relatively new too! It was created so traffic from the ramp on the right doesn't have to merge.)
The ramp from NY 5/92 west to I-481 north (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0346572,-76.0569868,17z/data=!3m1!1e3) is a double lane right turn, but is annoying since the right lane ends and it can be quite busy at times.
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 12:58:10 PM
What are some cases where there are two left turn lanes that funnel into a single through lane after the turn?
NY 260 at NY 31 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1984337,-77.899333,3a,75y,187.84h,84.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHt983PpUbQNjYgg4LKmSGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Brockport, NY
Hwy 6 at Hwy 5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3119408,-79.9171564,3a,75y,311.41h,94.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR46W2g5YCjTGb44EVF-gsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Hamilton, ON
NY 15A at I-390 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1078129,-77.6160271,3a,75y,178.33h,75.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7Rr_bM16M2la8L7rKQof1w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Brighton, NY
It's hard to get both the double turn lane and the following lane merge in a single street view image, so you'll need to pan around the corner to see the lane drops in each case. The only criteria is that the lane drop must be within 1/3 mile of the intersection.
What are your thoughts about these scenarios? It can come as quite a surprise to come around the corner and find that your lane ends. Further, if volumes warrant two turn lanes, it suggests, to me anyways, that the volume should certainly warrant two lanes on the road you're turning onto.
Pretty common with turns on to freeway entrances..
Z981
Quote from: webny99 on February 27, 2018, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on February 27, 2018, 07:35:43 AM
I can't think of any in my area.
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 12:58:10 PMHwy 6 at Hwy 5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3119408,-79.9171564,3a,75y,311.41h,94.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR46W2g5YCjTGb44EVF-gsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Hamilton, ON
This is from the OP - does that not qualify as "your area"? ;-)
I didn't notice that you posted that :). I was thinking of KW, but it's true that Hamilton isn't too far.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.
[rofl x20]
Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" :biggrin:.
Clearly you've never been on southbound OR 99W between Newburg and Dundee.
Hillsboro has one of these: NW Cornell Rd at NW 229th/231st Ave (Century Blvd). Google satellite view has not yet been updated.
A few examples:
Newberg Dundee bypass both ends.
Scholls Ferry road onto Roy Rogers road. Beaverton
99W onto Sunset Blvd. Sherwood
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Just because drivers in northern Illinois are idiots doesn't mean that's the case everywhere else on the continent...
Quote from: Bickendan on February 27, 2018, 08:35:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everyone can smoothly merge together.
[rofl x20]
Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" :biggrin:.
Clearly you've never been on southbound OR 99W between Newburg and Dundee.
Okay, so that one merge proves problematic. That doesn't mean the entire PNW sucks at merging. Overall, we're pretty good.
Quote from: froggie on February 28, 2018, 11:31:02 AM
Just because drivers in northern Illinois are idiots doesn't mean that's the case everywhere else on the continent...
Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.
Did anyone mention Astoria Blvd westbound at 31st St in Queens?
https://goo.gl/maps/tZ8mxZebS9S2
It's wonderful: You come off the Grand Central Parkway onto Astoria Blvd, see those two left turn lanes, but the one on the right dumps you into a right-turn only lane. Can be a nightmare when traffic is rough as people squeeze left as they make the turn -- merge typically happens mid-intersection.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 02:16:33 PM
Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.
:rofl:
(emphasis added)
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 03:30:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 02:16:33 PM
Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.
:rofl:
(emphasis added)
....
Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).
Quote from: 7/8 on February 27, 2018, 07:27:58 PM
Quote from: webny99 on February 27, 2018, 09:05:48 AM
Quote from: 7/8 on February 27, 2018, 07:35:43 AM
I can't think of any in my area.
Quote from: webny99 on February 26, 2018, 12:58:10 PMHwy 6 at Hwy 5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3119408,-79.9171564,3a,75y,311.41h,94.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR46W2g5YCjTGb44EVF-gsA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), Hamilton, ON
This is from the OP - does that not qualify as "your area"? ;-)
I didn't notice that you posted that :). I was thinking of KW, but it's true that Hamilton isn't too far.
Hamilton also is home to the ever questionable double permissive lefts (Garth and Fennell, for example).
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 04:34:58 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 03:30:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 02:16:33 PM
Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.
:rofl:
(emphasis added)
....
Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).
They aren't. Collision rates are fairly typical for a city that size, and saturation flow rate is comparable to similar centres so driver behaviour is standard. There's nothing empirical to it.
If anything, Chicago drivers are rather unremarkable one way or another.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 04:34:58 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 03:30:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 02:16:33 PM
Besides, I've been to Chicago. They're not that bad. Maybe they can't merge, but otherwise they're pretty good.
:rofl:
(emphasis added)
....
Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).
Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO. They're not known as FIBs for no reason.
Here's a few videos on them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_YKIBgbfSY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVpiL_mNUZE
There's much, much more.
Quote from: Brandon on February 28, 2018, 07:02:40 PM
Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO. They're not known as FIBs for no reason.
Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.
Quote from: cbeach40 on February 28, 2018, 04:53:52 PM
Hamilton also is home to the ever questionable double permissive lefts (Garth and Fennell, for example).
Didn't think any of those existed in Ontario. Thanks for that.
Quote from: Brandon on February 28, 2018, 07:02:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 04:34:58 PM
Fine. Can someone explain to me, why the fuck Chicago drivers are so bad? I guarantee you none of the issues are exclusive to Chicago (or even a combination thereof).
Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO. They're not known as FIBs for no reason.
[bad drivers videos]
There's much, much more.
...from every other city. You don't really think those "bad drivers" videos are unique to Chicago, right? If you just wanna go on those, I think South Carolina has the worst. LA also has some really hairy shit. Vancouver (BC) has some funny ones (mostly clueless drivers but also plenty of crashes). Seattle also has a channel, where almost every other clip is someone blowing through a red light. Portland (OR) has a channel with some crazy shit on it. I'm not saying that Chicago drivers are good. What I am saying is that they're not any worse than any other big city...
EDIT: joe fpoc (https://www.youtube.com/user/fattpieceofcrap/videos) has some hilarious Chicago videos on his channel. Great horn use too.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 07:10:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 28, 2018, 07:02:40 PM
Oh, they're easily the worst in the Midwest, if not the US, IMHO. They're not known as FIBs for no reason.
Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.
Well, if you're basing your experience in Chicago on that from living in Des Moines, then sure, Chicago seems to have a lot of bad drivers. But as I indicated above to Brandon, they're really not any worse than any other big city (confirmed by cbeach40's post, assuming his source is correct).
My source for those were Illinois DOT and the Chicago Metropolitan Agency for Planning, so yeah, I'm fairly confident in them.
Everyone everywhere thinks the drivers in their area - or even more so, in the nearest major city - are the worst there could be. But at least compared to the rest of North America, they're all pretty much the same.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 07:26:04 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 07:10:57 PM
Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.
Well, if you're basing your experience in Chicago on that from living in Des Moines, then sure, Chicago seems to have a lot of bad drivers. But as I indicated above to Brandon, they're really not any worse than any other big city (confirmed by cbeach40's post, assuming his source is correct).
Not just Des Moines. I have plenty of experience with the Twin Cities too (where I learned how to drive on urban freeways, no less!) Chicago, IMO, is easily way worse.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 08:19:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 07:26:04 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 07:10:57 PM
Every single time I've driven in Chicago, I've seen hyper-aggressive behavior, and a couple times I've had to deal with hairy near misses. My buddy who lives out there made me ride in an Uber once (round-trip, so I guess actually twice) and, after that, I want absolutely none of that ever again. Christ.
Well, if you're basing your experience in Chicago on that from living in Des Moines, then sure, Chicago seems to have a lot of bad drivers. But as I indicated above to Brandon, they're really not any worse than any other big city (confirmed by cbeach40's post, assuming his source is correct).
Not just Des Moines. I have plenty of experience with the Twin Cities too (where I learned how to drive on urban freeways, no less!) Chicago, IMO, is easily way worse.
Consider the traffic levels as well. Chicago has much worse traffic than MSP, so you're bound to see a lot more crazy shit just due to overall impatience resulting from constant congestion. Suburban driving is relatively tame because things are often relaxed. Not so in cities. Boston, New York, and LA are often famed for their poor drivers; all have absolutely shit traffic.
Quote from: cbeach40 on February 28, 2018, 08:03:42 PM
Everyone everywhere thinks the drivers in their area - or even more so, in the nearest major city - are the worst there could be.
I'm sure there's a term for this. Everyone pulls this crap.
Those videos...and I gave up after watching about 2 minutes of each, were amazingly....generic.
Any city...many suburban areas...stuff like that happens. Do I get ticked off when a guy in a thru lane wants to make a left? Yes. Does it irritate me when people weave in heavy traffic? Yes. Do I suddenly say drivers of whatever town/city are the worst and make a video of it because of such actions? No.
Perhaps I was being a bit hyperbolic, but I never said that Chicago drivers were the worst, period–I meant more that they were the worst I've experienced. I've never been to Boston or NYC, and while I've been to LA, I didn't drive there and I didn't really spend a whole lot of time there. Chicago is the only place in my experience where merging could be scary, the only place I've seen cars regularly using the shoulder as a lane, and the only place I've seen people go speeding 35+ down snowy residential streets.
Is it perhaps a bit of observational bias? Probably.
But we should probably just end this and get back on topic–I'm kind of sorry that I even made the offhand remark to begin with. :colorful:
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 10:43:50 PM
But we should probably just end this and get back on topic–I'm kind of sorry that I even made the offhand remark to begin with.
No no, it's not you. One of my pet peeves is people claiming that their city is especially bad at ____. Brandon popped in with another of his "you think you're city is bad at ____? Clearly you've never driven in Chicago" comments and I went off the handle. Not without reason...people who make those types of comments (can be anyone -- nothing against you, Brandon) bother me because they make it sound like they've never been anywhere else.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on February 28, 2018, 10:43:50 PM
Chicago is the only place in my experience where merging could be scary, the only place I've seen cars regularly using the shoulder as a lane, and the only place I've seen people go speeding 35+ down snowy residential streets.
A ha! See, I see that kind of shit all the time over here. In big cities, it's really quite common for people to use any available asphalt/concrete to get from A to B. I personally drive in the shoulder to turn right all the time (not on the freeway though). I get dirty looks, but hey! That's the city (yes, that's my reason -- traffic blows, ain't nobody got time for that). It doesn't snow a bunch in the PNW, but drivers are far from cautious when it does. Plenty of crashes on the freeways, cars in ditches, etc.
Things that I see in "the city" that someone from "the sticks" might not be used to seeing: drivers regularly blowing through red lights (no slowing down -- just full speed), driving on the sidewalk, passing city buses in oncoming lanes with cars coming right at them (and the car has to slow down or stop to let them pass), turning left or right from lanes not designated for such, honking at just about anything, drivers whose green arrow has disappeared but they continue to turn anyway (nearly hitting peds and oncoming cars)...etc. These things are not exclusive to just one city. They're things you see in almost every big city, especially one with really bad traffic.
You are right, though. We are fantastically off-topic. I'm editing a video right now of a short merge in my area. Should be online soon.
Alright, since you brought it up, just one last comment from me:
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 11:27:12 PM
drivers whose green arrow has disappeared but they continue to turn anyway (nearly hitting peds and oncoming cars)...etc.
This is starting to become a thing here in Des Moines and it really irks me. :verymad: I have a habit, if I'm at the front, of gunning it as soon as I get the green if I see someone going to do that, to scare the arrow violator. One of these days, though, if they catch me on a
really bad day, I might just lose it and actually hit someone. :evilgrin:
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 01, 2018, 02:59:40 AM
Alright, since you brought it up, just one last comment from me:
Quote from: jakeroot on February 28, 2018, 11:27:12 PM
drivers whose green arrow has disappeared but they continue to turn anyway (nearly hitting peds and oncoming cars)...etc.
This is starting to become a thing here in Des Moines and it really irks me. :verymad: I have a habit, if I'm at the front, of gunning it as soon as I get the green if I see someone going to do that, to scare the arrow violator. One of these days, though, if they catch me on a really bad day, I might just lose it and actually hit someone. :evilgrin:
If I had a nickel every time I saw someone run their arrow in Salt Lake City, I'd be rich pretty fast. It happens so often that I've just come to expect it every time.
PennDOT likes to use this setup. From my experience, as long as the merge area after the turn is decently long, it works pretty well. There are a couple cases near me where WVDOH installed extra long single turn lanes where I wish they'd convert to double turns so it didn't take as many cycles to go through or tie up as much of the cycle on the left turn phase.
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 04, 2018, 01:38:19 PM
There are a couple cases near me where WVDOH installed extra long single turn lanes where I wish they'd convert to double turns so it didn't take as many cycles to go through or tie up as much of the cycle on the left turn phase.
I think a better decision would be to convert the left turn, if it's not already, to a protected/permissive movement. If the backups are still insane (3 or 4 blocks long), then I could see a double protected left.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everyone can smoothly merge together.
[rofl x20]
Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" :biggrin:.
Creating gaps slows down the flow - to the point that intersection throughput is lower than it could be. A good metrics is flow density half a mile down the road - it cannot be higher, and that is the ultimate proof.
Setup is good for one or two cars with a better engine (i.e. no Jeeps ) which can jump the queue.
The ultimate one of these is the westbound Rosecrans to westbound I-105 left turn (https://www.google.com/maps/place/14301-14415+Dumont+Ave,+Norwalk,+CA+90650/@33.9019542,-118.1038854,3a,75y,238.17h,70.27t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sfCRZWFMUzFdms6rHW1YRgA!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x80c2d2adb38b56c3:0x18dcdb7899ed08c) in Norwalk, California.
It's two left turn lanes into a wide single freeway onramp lane.
Quote from: Bickendan on February 27, 2018, 08:35:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 26, 2018, 05:14:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 26, 2018, 01:56:25 PM
The great thing about these is that drivers will instinctively start to create a gap after the left turn, so everycan can smoothly merge together.
[rofl] x20
Disclaimer: drivers in the PNW actually know how merges work. My statement does not apply to "the Middle" :biggrin:.
Clearly you've never been on southbound OR 99W between Newburg and Dundee.
That is terribly designed even for mid 20th century standards. I describe it as 2 lanes end and a new one is created.
In the Perimeter area of Atlanta: East Abernathy has a double left turn onto north Peachtree-Dunwoody, where a lane is also added on the right (presumably for west Abernathy -> north Peachtree-Dunwoody)-- but the left lane of the double turn becomes a left-turn-only lane at the traffic light at N Park Place. This is part of my commute and it seems like at least once a week I nearly get hit by someone in the left lane who doesn't want to turn at the stoplight and cuts in front of me.
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8894455,-84.4760153,17.5z/data=!5m1!1e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9341341,-84.3536299,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgDRc9RvrYXgEPDfMi6Eg5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
It gets even worse if you're trying to go this way from 400 North, because as soon as you merge into east Abernathy, you have to cross all the lanes of traffic to get to that double left turn lane. I don't know what the heck they'll do with this intersection when the 400 collector-distributor lanes get built and there's even a smaller gap between 400 and Peachtree-Dunwoody on Abernathy.
This is a particularly not-nice one that surprised me a few weeks ago. Exit ramp from I-10 WB turning left onto the Ambassador Caffery Pkwy overpass in Lafayette, LA. It's four lanes south of the bridge, and it's a busy route so a wider bridge would definitely help this area.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/71615827c3f92d4da88074120719e7bc.jpg)
iPhone
^^
That's interesting. It's the reverse of the most common "double left followed by lane drop" scenario: left turn from arterial to on-ramp. I don't see the opposite (pictured above) too often.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 06, 2018, 09:28:19 PM
^^
That's interesting. It's the reverse of the most common "double left followed by lane drop" scenario: left turn from arterial to on-ramp. I don't see the opposite (pictured above) too often.
I actually sees the pictured (though not with ramps at such awkward angles :paranoid:) much
more often. Double lefts to on-ramps are pretty rare, and I want to say the new one on NY 15A at I-390 is one of the only ones in the area.
Here's a video to follow up an earlier post of mine. At the intersection of Main Street and the Dunsmuir Viaduct (https://goo.gl/amzxX5) in Vancouver, the right left-turn lane merges into the left lane almost immediately after the left turn. It is certainly the shortest of this type of situation that I've ever encountered.
Skip to 1:00 for the actual left turn. I tried to include some context.
https://youtu.be/q3dditaRyB8
Quote from: jakeroot on March 07, 2018, 07:00:41 PM
Here's a video to follow up an earlier post of mine. At the intersection of Main Street and the Dunsmuir Viaduct (https://goo.gl/amzxX5) in Vancouver, the right left-turn lane merges into the left lane almost immediately after the left turn. It is certainly the shortest of this type of situation that I've ever encountered.
Skip to 1:00 for the actual left turn. I tried to include some context.
https://youtu.be/q3dditaRyB8
Here's an even shorter one: on the left turn from 1st Avenue to I-5 north in San Diego (https://goo.gl/maps/He6ow383ALn), the two lanes merge together
during the turn.
Quote from: roadguy2 on March 07, 2018, 07:49:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 07, 2018, 07:00:41 PM
Here's a video to follow up an earlier post of mine. At the intersection of Main Street and the Dunsmuir Viaduct (https://goo.gl/amzxX5) in Vancouver, the right left-turn lane merges into the left lane almost immediately after the left turn. It is certainly the shortest of this type of situation that I've ever encountered.
Skip to 1:00 for the actual left turn. I tried to include some context.
https://youtu.be/q3dditaRyB8
Here's an even shorter one: on the left turn from 1st Avenue to I-5 north in San Diego (https://goo.gl/maps/He6ow383ALn), the two lanes merge together during the turn.
Yikes! That is damn short. Although from a purely practical standpoint, it doesn't seem quite as formidable as the Vancouver example due to the wide paved area (room for two cars if one doesn't properly merge for quite a while). In the Vancouver example, failure to merge is punishable by barrier impact!