https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/04/college-online-degree-blended-learning/557642/
Interesting read though but who knows though.
A person attending a traditional residential college during the traditional college years learns more during non-class hours than in class.
Can you learn most anything on-line? Sure. Can traditional colleges blend some of what on-line programs do? Sure. Are most traditional colleges, state and so-called private (still grossly subsidized by taxpayers), grossly bloated with non-productive people who "teach" ridiculous political invective and half-baked conspiracy theories as fact? Certainly. But a traditional brick and mortar college graduate is still the best choice for any job.
Half-baked conspiracy theories...I missed out on that class.
Quote from: SP Cook on April 23, 2018, 12:25:26 PM
A person attending a traditional residential college during the traditional college years learns more during non-class hours than in class.
I agree, and even when I got my MBA in my late 30s, I got a lot more out of classes I took in person than classes I took online.
Quote from: Rothman on April 23, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
Half-baked conspiracy theories...I missed out on that class.
I even majored in Ridiculous Political Invective and didn't hear any half-baked conspiracy theories. Not from my professors, anyway.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 23, 2018, 05:24:25 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 23, 2018, 12:30:48 PM
Half-baked conspiracy theories...I missed out on that class.
I even majored in Ridiculous Political Invective and didn't hear any half-baked conspiracy theories. Not from my professors, anyway.
That's because we got brainwashed and don't know any better. :poke:
Rarely was I subjected to much in the way of opinion from the front of the class, perhaps because it was mostly community college, but it's really tricky to politicize the basic courses, math, science, and computing courses without getting way off-topic. Could I have learned a lot of it online? Yes.
I heard more opinions in high school, but sometimes the lesson is that you're going to hear things you don't agree with. On a constant basis? No, because most folks can be professional.
Quote from: formulanone on April 23, 2018, 05:37:40 PM
it's really tricky to politicize the basic courses, math, science, and computing courses without getting way off-topic.
Ha - as part of my MBA program, I had a Behavioral Finance prof who would spend four hours every Saturday railing against public sector unions. If you're enough of a blowhard, you'll find a way.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 24, 2018, 09:03:29 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 23, 2018, 05:37:40 PM
it's really tricky to politicize the basic courses, math, science, and computing courses without getting way off-topic.
Ha - as part of my MBA program, I had a Behavioral Finance prof who would spend four hours every Saturday railing against public sector unions. If you're enough of a blowhard, you'll find a way.
I'd hardly call an MBA "basic", compared to a BA and AA (which can be found in a plastic bubble after spending a few quarters and twisting that chrome dial enough times).
In my two Honors seminars, both were Democrats. The first one was explicit, even telling us not to vote for Trump, while the second one also teaches Intro to American Politics and makes it explicit in that class, but wasn't as explicit in my Honors class, which was about work and jobs. The first Honors seminar had nothing to do with politics.
Microeconomics had a Republican that seemed to want the market to work as efficiently as possible; this would mean no minimum wage (he made this explicit) and less government intervention. The Macroeconomics professor seemed to be a Democrat.
Calculus III had a Trump supporter, but this wasn't mentioned in the class, not even once. (It was mentioned when I was in his office during office hours.)
I don't know the political orientation of any of my other 14 professors so far.
Quote from: formulanone on April 24, 2018, 09:18:58 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 24, 2018, 09:03:29 AM
Quote from: formulanone on April 23, 2018, 05:37:40 PM
it's really tricky to politicize the basic courses, math, science, and computing courses without getting way off-topic.
Ha - as part of my MBA program, I had a Behavioral Finance prof who would spend four hours every Saturday railing against public sector unions. If you're enough of a blowhard, you'll find a way.
I'd hardly call an MBA "basic", compared to a BA and AA (which can be found in a plastic bubble after spending a few quarters and twisting that chrome dial enough times).
Sorry, I missed the "basic" designation. I was just pointing out that a prof found a way to get on a political soapbox in a math class.
Oh, I also had a Chem 101 prof who loved to talk about how "OJ killed his wife" (this was in 2001, so it was a little more timely than it would have been now), though I think that was just him expressing his disgust at the defense team's ability to create reasonable doubt over DNA testing.
Quote from: 1 on April 24, 2018, 09:29:25 AM
In my two Honors seminars, both were Democrats. The first one was explicit, even telling us not to vote for Trump, while the second one also teaches Intro to American Politics and makes it explicit in that class, but wasn't as explicit in my Honors class, which was about work and jobs. The first Honors seminar had nothing to do with politics.
Microeconomics had a Republican that seemed to want the market to work as efficiently as possible; this would mean no minimum wage (he made this explicit) and less government intervention. The Macroeconomics professor seemed to be a Democrat.
Calculus III had a Trump supporter, but this wasn't mentioned in the class, not even once. (It was mentioned when I was in his office during office hours.)
I don't know the political orientation of any of my other 14 professors so far.
I was a poli sci major, and there were 4 tenured profs in the dept. Each represented a spot on the political spectrum (social liberal/economic liberal, social conservative/economic conservative, social liberal/economic conservative, and social conservative/economic liberal). The social liberal/economic liberal and social conservative/economic conservative were both the most vocal, but equally vocal. It was as close to fair and balanced as you could get.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 24, 2018, 09:41:13 AM
Oh, I also had a Chem 101 prof who loved to talk about how "OJ killed his wife" (this was in 2001, so it was a little more timely than it would have been now), though I think that was just him expressing his disgust at the defense team's ability to create reasonable doubt over DNA testing.
Drink apple juice because OJ will kill you.
Quote from: 1 on April 24, 2018, 09:29:25 AMMicroeconomics had a Republican that seemed to want the market to work as efficiently as possible; this would mean no minimum wage (he made this explicit) and less government intervention.
Sounds more like a libertarian to me, but I could be wrong.
Pfft. Libertarians are just confused conservatives. They spew rhetoric about free markets and minimalist government...and then more than one of my libertarian friends were considering voting for Bernie Sanders this past election!
Let's move on from the politics.
Another option for reducing the cost of higher education I've heard proposed is having colleges and universities eliminate residence halls and dining facilities. I have political opinions about that too, but leaving those aside, I'm not sure if that would actually lead to cost savings, as I'm not sure if the actual cost of room and board is subsidized by tuition or other revenues.
Two things on that. I think that college dorm and meal facilities exist to protect students from the slumlords that would develop in their absence. At least in my state, it is a break even proposition.
The other part i will say is to repeat what I said above. You learn more during non-class hours than in class. If you treat college as just the 13th-16th grades, just commuting in from home and taking no part in the life of the college, you do not get that.
Quote from: SP Cook on April 25, 2018, 11:30:39 AMI think that college dorm and meal facilities exist to protect students from the slumlords that would develop in their absence.
I agree, that's my opinion that I thought might be excessively political.
Quote from: SP Cook on April 25, 2018, 11:30:39 AM
Two things on that. I think that college dorm and meal facilities exist to protect students from the slumlords that would develop in their absence. At least in my state, it is a break even proposition.
Yes, in most colleges the tuition does not subsidize the dorms (if anything, the dorms subsidize the rest of the college). The benefit of dorms is providing a place for students to get to know other students, and have a gentler introduction to living independently of their parents than just renting an apartment.
Quote
The other part i will say is to repeat what I said above. You learn more during non-class hours than in class. If you treat college as just the 13th-16th grades, just commuting in from home and taking no part in the life of the college, you do not get that.
I strongly agree.
I'm not really sure what you're supposed to be learning outside of class. You can theoretically learn social skills, but as someone who wasn't very sociable at the time and from another state, I just hung out in my dorm room on the computer, same as I would have done anyway, so I don't really consider it a good teacher of that.
I guess it can be a way to force you to learn shopping and other household management skills, but that should really be something parents should be teaching long before a student is required to use those skills. (My mom took me grocery shopping during the summer when I was about eight, handed me a calculator, and told me to add up the prices of everything as we put it in the cart. It was a very simple but concrete lesson on budgeting.)
I also learned:
- how to wait in line
- not trust that anyone knows how to work a computer in the 1990s
- how to deal with high school-educated idiots at the front lines of Administration
- waste time moving around campus because mistakes get made
- that textbooks are the best/worst examples of cost depreciation
- that you can't pick your roommates
- student government is as wasteful, inept, and 99% as useless as real government
- you can wait until the last minute because everyone literally does
- university cops have nothing to do, so they create issues
- how to understand different accents (although watching a lot of non-Americans and Winston Cup drivers talk about their racing activities helped a lot)
- how to share notes and meetup to "study"
- that dating is far easier than it was in high school
- opening a dorm window is a punishment in Dante's 7th Circle of Hell
- nobody cares about prior achievements
- how to drink (and not drink)
- how to fill a bong
- how to pretend that bong doesn't exist
- how to repair a bong that possibly didn't exist
- other life lessons (for example, loan someone $10, album, or book if you never want to see them again)
You could learn these kinds of things in another sphere of influence or large workplace, but that was just a few examples.
- if you're charming, you get get your RA to agree that your kitty is an ambulatory houseplant.
IMO, for my major (meteorology) you need a campus for certain classes.
LG-TP260
Quote from: kkt on April 25, 2018, 08:35:56 PM
- if you're charming, you get get your RA to agree that your kitty is an ambulatory houseplant.
Or a new species of tankless fish.
Quote from: formulanone on April 25, 2018, 07:37:56 PM
- that textbooks are the best/worst examples of cost depreciation
1) Given the fact that you can at least return a brand new textbook for a full refund within the return window, I'd say new cars are a better/worse one
2) Nowadays you can rent textbooks, which is a brilliant idea.
In general, I think I was a better human being having completed 4 years of college on campus (though I had [and have] a long way to go), and I didn't see others who didn't go to college go thru similar growth. They were just as immature at 25 as they were at 18.
As someone with experience of both distance-learning and campus-based further education, campus-based's big benefit is life experience, not better teaching.*
That said, learning works better with others physically there, but others could be '3', could be '90' (though smaller classes/seminars stop you from hiding, and also give you more ability to raise your queries. But I had the same absorption of in-flesh lectures at the same place whether there were 90 or 9 in the class. And the same absorption of recorded ones whether there was 10 or 4 of us). Watching lectures online on your own makes it harder to absorb as you don't get the questions and discussion around what's been taught from fellow students.
Being on campus makes little difference academically to being a small study group studying remotely, unless academics are approachable and accessible outside the usual queries and such from students on their module that they have to do as part of the job. Knowledge doesn't filter through by osmosis, by mere proximity to great minds - it requires interaction with them.
*Certainly I've seen little to counter my theory that if a uni/college/department is trading on big names, or quality of research, or prestige, then the teaching of undergraduates is not the highest priority for academic staff and teaching quality isn't as good as those slightly lower down the chain. Obviously a crappy place will be crappy, but...
10 things you learned in college, esp if it's private, a state university and ivy league school.
10. On average, it will cost you $10-50k a year (times 4 for average span in college).
9. There's no financial literacy nor home economics and income budgeting class.
8. No class in Latin (Not even roman numerals - see VIII) nor cursive (a dying art).
7. Never take a racial or gender studies course (no company employer wants you now).
6. The job market is mainly fast food and retail (at least you got a HS diploma, a must).
5. All jobs are part-time, temping, and minimum wage ($11 in CA) - not living wage.
4. Ironically, a 4% unemployment rate for both CA and the US (current avg. for each).
3. You will be outsourced, job given to automation and if your company decides to keep a real human manual job, they hire an immigrant worker on a H1B visa to replace you.
2. You shoulda taken $20-200 a class in junior or community college (only a mundane office job with avg. $50-75,000 a year salary here in urban centers of CA).
and 1. College student loan debt for life. I heard it's a total of $100,000+ now.
Welcome to the real world, millennials (and soon generation Z), and let's start adulting.
Quote from: Desert Man on May 02, 2018, 07:42:50 AM
7. Never take a racial or gender studies course (no company employer wants you now).
1) How would they know unless they asked for a copy of your college transcript?
2) Why would they care?
What an odd statement. Employers want to know that you earned the degree you claimed you earned and that it's in the field of study you claimed it was (assuming it's a job that requires a degree in a particular field). They don't care what specific classes you took.
As someone who has hired other employees, we always ask for a transcript. That said, a gender or racial studies class here and there aren't going to keep them out.
Quote from: Rothman on May 02, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
As someone who has hired other employees, we always ask for a transcript. That said, a gender or racial studies class here and there aren't going to keep them out.
Honestly, I can't remember the last time I was asked for a transcript, and it happened so infrequently, it was notable when it did. Either my employer verified the fact that I'd earned a degree through the standard background check, or they just didn't care that much.