For the past two years, I've been driving a 2016 Volkswagen Golf–the wagon version. It's a terrific car in almost every regard, but there's one annoying exception: Driving at highway speeds with the windows down and the sunroof open is almost unbearable. Speeds up to about 30-40 are generally tolerable, but even at a modest 55 MPH, the roar of wind and the sensation of air turbulence in the car become unpleasant. I've tried various combinations of windows and roof being open to various degrees, and none have seemed much better.
I don't recall my past cars (various '90s Subarus, two Toyota Matrixes) being quite as loud with windows down and roofs open. And I don't recall my family's cars in the '80s and '90s being so unbearable with windows down either.
So I'm left to speculate that enhancements in aerodynamics have optimized modern cars' shapes to slip through wind resistance efficiently (with windows closed), and when a window is opened, that shape is spoiled, creating much greater turbulence–and therefore, noise.
Are there any cars (or trucks) that are noticeably better suited to driving with windows down?
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
Most 90s Hondas. They feel like go-karts anyway but the windows-down experience just amplified that.
I have a 2015 Golf and find it similarly unpleasant at speed. My 2002 Liberty is actually great with the windows down.
But I'd echo Takumi's notion of older Hondas - my 2001 Accord was probably the best for it.
Quote from: briantroutman on April 30, 2018, 08:53:14 PMAnd I don’t recall my family’s cars in the ’80s and ’90s being so unbearable with windows down either.
So I’m left to speculate that enhancements in aerodynamics have optimized modern cars’ shapes to slip through wind resistance efficiently (with windows closed), and when a window is opened, that shape is spoiled, creating much greater turbulence—and therefore, noise.
This seems to a concern I've heard echoed, but I've experienced the same thing with my most recent car, a 2009 Scion xD. The wind flutter and chop is horrendous at anything over 30-35 miles an hour, unless all four windows are completely down. I can get away with just two driver's side windows for quick trip to the store. At 65 miles an hour and above, it's not as pleasant as it once was in other vehicles of 1980s/90s-vintage.
My wife's van (a Mazda 5) doesn't seem so bad, but I don't think I've gone over 55 mph with all the windows down.
I don't always roll down all the rental cars' windows for much of any length of time, maybe a few times a year. I did notice the latest Ford Mustang convertible was quieter at 80 with no windows than my car was at 40mph sans windows. Maybe the V8 rumble tuned out the wind noise.
My 2016 Buick Lacrosse does well with the sunroof open even up to 70 mph. Good streamlining.
The muscle car shape of my previous 5th Generation Camaro and current generation Challenger I noticed tend to keep wind out even with the window fully open. Usually I drove both of them with the window down, I suppose the gun slot size doesn't hurt keeping the noise down.
Quote from: Brandon on April 30, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
So, it's 65 degrees and sunny and you're driving around on roads where your speed is under 55. You telling me you're keeping the windows closed and turning on the AC in these conditions? If so....
why?
Convertibles
Quote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2018, 01:15:06 AM
Quote from: Brandon on April 30, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
So, it's 65 degrees and sunny and you're driving around on roads where your speed is under 55. You telling me you're keeping the windows closed and turning on the AC in these conditions? If so.... why?
I don't really keep the windows rolled down on the expressway at all, I don't want to get blown to bits.
Quote from: SSOWorld on May 01, 2018, 05:23:20 AM
Convertibles
Yes, this. Because of what it was, my dad's Cutlass was the ultimate road-trip car during my childhood. I've tried recreating the feeling with all the windows open on my 2001 Tahoe, but it just doesn't feel the same.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2018, 01:15:06 AM
Quote from: Brandon on April 30, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
So, it's 65 degrees and sunny and you're driving around on roads where your speed is under 55. You telling me you're keeping the windows closed and turning on the AC in these conditions? If so.... why?
I don't really keep the windows rolled down on the expressway at all, I don't want to get blown to bits.
Relatively speaking, air conditioning is pretty common in all vehicles. You only have to go back to the 1980's when it was still an option. And, like everything else, people w/o a/c survived by putting the windows down.
When you see UPS and delivery trucks driving by with their doors open, it's not just for convenience. They'll tell you it's because their air conditioning "operates at 55 mph". Most delivery trucks still don't have a/c, so they just leave their doors open while they drive around.
Quote from: Takumi on April 30, 2018, 09:33:12 PM
Most 90s Hondas.
I'll take a rough guess and assume that your experience with '90s Hondas is probably not that different from my experience with '90s Subarus–which is to say that the windows-down experience was at least tolerable if not spectacular. I would drive for hours on long trips with the windows down and roof open, and though my hair would get blown around, I don't recall it ever getting to the point where the wind noise and buffeting became noticeably irritating.
Quote from: corco on April 30, 2018, 09:57:52 PM
I have a 2015 Golf and find it similarly unpleasant at speed.
Glad to see that I'm not imagining things.
Quote from: corco on April 30, 2018, 09:57:52 PM
My 2002 Liberty is actually great with the windows down.
That leads me to something else I've wondered: Are less aerodynamic vehicles less turbulent in cabin at speed with windows down because their body shapes aren't as carefully honed for windows-up operation? I realize that it's just one additional data point, but I recall that the cab of the International Durastar truck I rented for my move back to Pennsylvania was quite calm with windows down at freeway speed.
Quote from: formulanone on April 30, 2018, 10:43:34 PM
I've experienced the same thing with my most recent car, a 2009 Scion xD. The wind flutter and chop is horrendous at anything over 30-35 miles an hour, unless all four windows are completely down.
In my Matrixes, the windows-down experience was generally better than it is in my Golf, but there were combinations that produced some very bizarre and undesirable effects. For example, if I had the sunroof open but left all of the windows up, I'd get a very intense low frequency buffeting in the car that practically hurt my eardrums.
Quote from: Beltway on April 30, 2018, 11:04:57 PM
My 2016 Buick Lacrosse does well with the sunroof open even up to 70 mph.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2018, 11:06:04 PM
The muscle car shape of my previous 5th Generation Camaro and current generation Challenger...
I don't see any commonality in overall vehicle shape or type here, so maybe the level of turbulence truly is a matter of fine details–the shape and position of mirrors, fender flares, etc.–that set up a pattern of airflow around the car and determine the level of noise and buffeting in the car.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2018, 01:15:06 AM
Quote from: Brandon on April 30, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
So, it's 65 degrees and sunny and you're driving around on roads where your speed is under 55. You telling me you're keeping the windows closed and turning on the AC in these conditions? If so.... why?
I guess this is just a matter of personal preferences. Speaking for myself, I like open air whenever and wherever possible–open windows at home, sliding balcony doors at hotels, outdoor seating at restaurants, etc. And for me, air conditioning is a last resort that I'll turn to when heat and humidity become too oppressive to deal with–or in the car if I'm trying to carry on a conversation or pay close attention to something I'm listening to.
But not infrequently, I'll see people sitting in parked cars on a sunny 70° day with all the windows sealed tightly, the engine idling, and the A/C compressor running. Or on a summer evening when the temp has dropped to 65° with a gentle breeze and the soft sound of crickets in the distance, and a neighbor's house is sealed tightly with the A/C running. To each his or her own, I suppose, but I don't understand people's resistance to just opening the danged windows.
Quote from: SSOWorld on May 01, 2018, 05:23:20 AM
Convertibles
For a few weeks several years ago, I borrowed a then-girlfriend's '87 Chrysler LeBaron convertible that she had inherited from her grandmother. I recall that, with the top down, the level of wind and noise wasn't terribly bad. And if you put the top down but left the windows up, it was quiet enough to hold a conversation or stay reasonably comfortable on a chilly day.
I really took to the convertible experience and put the top down nearly every time I got in the car, even though it was autumn at the time. I wondered how I'd ever drive any car that wasn't a convertible afterward. The only thing I didn't like was that "looking down the back of your neck" feeling driving in heavy traffic or with tractor trailers trailing close behind. At least sunroofs–particularly large sunroofs like the one on my Golf–give a reasonable dose of that open air feeling without the limitations, drawbacks, and costs of a true convertible.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
I don't really keep the windows rolled down on the expressway at all, I don't want to get blown to bits.
Well–that's basically the purpose of this thread: What cars can you drive on the expressway with the windows rolled down and
not get blown to bits. Clearly there are some that fare better in this regard than others.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2018, 01:15:06 AM
Quote from: Brandon on April 30, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
So, it's 65 degrees and sunny and you're driving around on roads where your speed is under 55. You telling me you're keeping the windows closed and turning on the AC in these conditions? If so.... why?
I don't really keep the windows rolled down on the expressway at all, I don't want to get blown to bits.
Relatively speaking, air conditioning is pretty common in all vehicles. You only have to go back to the 1980's when it was still an option. And, like everything else, people w/o a/c survived by putting the windows down.
When you see UPS and delivery trucks driving by with their doors open, it's not just for convenience. They'll tell you it's because their air conditioning "operates at 55 mph". Most delivery trucks still don't have a/c, so they just leave their doors open while they drive around.
When I was in college, or just out of college and not making much money, I wouldn't run the A/C to save on gas money (and there was the one summer in college where I didn't use it because I couldn't afford to have the system recharged). That's not the case any more, and assuming extreme temperatures, I can't see why I wouldn't use my A/C.
Quote from: briantroutman on May 01, 2018, 10:56:13 AM
Well–that's basically the purpose of this thread: What cars can you drive on the expressway with the windows rolled down and not get blown to buts. Clearly there are some that fare better in this regard than others.
Probably just convertibles with the top down, really.
^ Oops–blown to
bits, that should have read. Not blown to "buts" .
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 10:57:53 AM
When I was in college, or just out of college and not making much money, I wouldn't run the A/C to save on gas money...
And just to be clear, I'm not talking about avoiding using A/C because you don't have it or can't afford to recharge it or are trying to save a few cents on gas (which may be impossible due to increased drag at highway speeds anyway). I'm talking about having windows down on a moderate-temperature day because you like the feeling of open air.
Quote from: briantroutman on April 30, 2018, 08:53:14 PM
For the past two years, I've been driving a 2016 Volkswagen Golf–the wagon version. It's a terrific car in almost every regard, but there's one annoying exception: Driving at highway speeds with the windows down and the sunroof open is almost unbearable. Speeds up to about 30-40 are generally tolerable, but even at a modest 55 MPH, the roar of wind and the sensation of air turbulence in the car become unpleasant. I've tried various combinations of windows and roof being open to various degrees, and none have seemed much better.
Brian, You may already know this but what you're describing above is the downside of vehicles having more aerodynamic profiles. Such designs reduces wind drag (when the windows are closed) & allows for better fuel economy. While aerodynamic designs in vehicles have been around for decades; the drag coefficients of vehicles have dropped to a point where even opening a window
a crack can increase noise due to the added wind resistance associated with such. Note: aerodynamic testing is done by placing a vehicle in a wind tunnel. The windows are closed when vehicles undergo these tests.
Actually, this issue with vehicles is not new. When my brother rented an early 2000s-vintage Chrysler Pacifica (the CUV not current minivan bearing the same name) for a long trip; he noticed that whenever the windows were down, the related road & wind noise would become too loud to keep the windows down... especially with passengers traveling with him. Such ticked him off royally because he couldn't drive the vehicle even on 30-40 mph roads with the windows down and it was 65-70 degrees outside (perfect for
windows-down driving).
Quote from: SSOWorld on May 01, 2018, 05:23:20 AM
Convertibles
Amen. Whenever it's a nice day & I need to drive; that's where my 2007 Mustang convertible comes in handy.
Quote from: briantroutman on May 01, 2018, 10:56:13 AMAre less aerodynamic vehicles less turbulent in cabin at speed with windows down because their body shapes aren't as carefully honed for windows-up operation? I realize that it's just one additional data point, but I recall that the cab of the International Durastar truck I rented for my move back to Pennsylvania was quite calm with windows down at freeway speed.
Short answer: yes.
Quote from: briantroutman on May 01, 2018, 10:56:13 AMQuote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2018, 01:15:06 AMQuote from: Brandon on April 30, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
So, it's 65 degrees and sunny and you're driving around on roads where your speed is under 55. You telling me you're keeping the windows closed and turning on the AC in these conditions? If so.... why?
I guess this is just a matter of personal preferences. Speaking for myself, I like open air whenever and wherever possible–open windows at home, sliding balcony doors at hotels, outdoor seating at restaurants, etc. And for me, air conditioning is a last resort that I'll turn to when heat and humidity become too oppressive to deal with– or in the car if I''m trying to carry on a conversation or pay close attention to something I''m listening to.
But not infrequently, I''ll see people sitting in parked cars on a sunny 70° day with all the windows sealed tightly, the engine idling, and the A/C compressor running. Or on a summer evening when the temp has dropped to 65° with a gentle breeze and the soft sound of crickets in the distance, and a neighbor''s house is sealed tightly with the A/C running. To each his or her own, I suppose, but I don''t understand people''s resistance to just opening the danged windows.
You, me, my brother and Duke87 agree with you 100% regarding the above. My brother (in MA) sees what you described all the time and just can't comprehend why people would do such (ride with the windows up on a local road when it's 65-75 degrees outside).
Quote from: briantroutman on May 01, 2018, 10:56:13 AMQuote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
I don't really keep the windows rolled down on the expressway at all, I don't want to get blown to bits.
Well –that''s basically the purpose of this thread: What cars can you drive on the expressway with the windows rolled down and not get blown to bits. Clearly there are some that fare better in this regard than others.
Anything from the 1980s-vintage and earlier when one gets right down to it.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 10:57:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 10:45:18 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 09:03:26 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2018, 01:15:06 AM
Quote from: Brandon on April 30, 2018, 09:11:02 PM
Only if it lacks working air conditioning.
So, it's 65 degrees and sunny and you're driving around on roads where your speed is under 55. You telling me you're keeping the windows closed and turning on the AC in these conditions? If so.... why?
I don't really keep the windows rolled down on the expressway at all, I don't want to get blown to bits.
Relatively speaking, air conditioning is pretty common in all vehicles. You only have to go back to the 1980's when it was still an option. And, like everything else, people w/o a/c survived by putting the windows down.
When you see UPS and delivery trucks driving by with their doors open, it's not just for convenience. They'll tell you it's because their air conditioning "operates at 55 mph". Most delivery trucks still don't have a/c, so they just leave their doors open while they drive around.
When I was in college, or just out of college and not making much money, I wouldn't run the A/C to save on gas money (and there was the one summer in college where I didn't use it because I couldn't afford to have the system recharged). That's not the case any more, and assuming extreme temperatures, I can't see why I wouldn't use my A/C.
Yep - today's climate control systems in cars are much more efficient than many years ago, so on a gas-mileage standpoint its better to use your a/c or heat (or auto climate control) versus having the windows open. Not to mention keeping any bad stuff out of the vehicle.
But...some days, it's just nice to have the windows open, arm sticking out, enjoying the smell of that skunk the guy in front of you ran over...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 12:12:59 PM
But...some days, it's just nice to have the windows open, arm sticking out, enjoying the smell of that skunk the guy in front of you ran over...
I had to stop doing that when I drove from GA to VA non-stop with my arm out the window and ended up with a left arm that was much more tanned than my right arm.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 12:12:59 PM
But...some days, it's just nice to have the windows open, arm sticking out, enjoying the smell of that skunk the guy in front of you ran over...
I had to stop doing that when I drove from GA to VA non-stop with my arm out the window and ended up with a left arm that was much more tanned than my right arm.
Aka
trucker's tan. :sombrero:
I had a rented Toyota Corolla a few weeks ago that fared pretty well at highway speed with the windows down. I generally won't put the windows down on a freeway, but do prefer windows down driving on a two-lane country highway.
I currently drive a current generation Ford Escape. It's not too bad with the windows down, but with the driverside windows down there is an odd creaking noise that comes from the sunroof when it's down. That creak goes away if a passenger side window is opened a crack.
My previous car was a 2009 Pontiac Vibe. That was a great car for windows down driving. More than that, the window height was perfect armrest height. On the Escape, the window is slightly too far and too high to be comfortable as an armrest.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 12:12:59 PM
But...some days, it's just nice to have the windows open, arm sticking out, enjoying the smell of that skunk the guy in front of you ran over...
I had to stop doing that when I drove from GA to VA non-stop with my arm out the window and ended up with a left arm that was much more tanned than my right arm.
That reminds me. I'm going down to The Villages, Florida (a golf cart community) in a few days. I'll be the one driving the golf cart much of the time. My left arm is gonna have a nice tan by the end of the week!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 02:36:13 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 12:12:59 PM
But...some days, it's just nice to have the windows open, arm sticking out, enjoying the smell of that skunk the guy in front of you ran over...
I had to stop doing that when I drove from GA to VA non-stop with my arm out the window and ended up with a left arm that was much more tanned than my right arm.
That reminds me. I'm going down to The Villages, Florida (a golf cart community) in a few days. I'll be the one driving the golf cart much of the time. My left arm is gonna have a nice tan by the end of the week!
America's Friendliest Hometown!
And home of the highest STD rate in the state!
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 02:56:21 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 02:36:13 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 01, 2018, 12:21:38 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2018, 12:12:59 PM
But...some days, it's just nice to have the windows open, arm sticking out, enjoying the smell of that skunk the guy in front of you ran over...
I had to stop doing that when I drove from GA to VA non-stop with my arm out the window and ended up with a left arm that was much more tanned than my right arm.
That reminds me. I'm going down to The Villages, Florida (a golf cart community) in a few days. I'll be the one driving the golf cart much of the time. My left arm is gonna have a nice tan by the end of the week!
America's Friendliest Hometown!
And home of the highest STD rate in the state country!
:-D
The Taurus (which is, interestingly, used by law enforcement) and Fusion both create a horrific blowing effect with the windows down at freeway speeds. It almost "stutters", sounding like there is unbelievable amounts of resistance. This happens to a much lesser degree in larger vans and trucks I've been in.
I personally try to use freeways where possible, and as such, don't make a habit of rolling the windows down. Unbelievable how many arms I see sticking out of truck windows this time of year, though.
I'm fairly warm-blooded and seem to heat up easily, so I tend to use the AC if it's above 60 degrees or so, maybe even lower on a sunny day due to the black interior.
Anyone keeping a list of the good ones? A lot of us are only listing the bad...
...like my 2013 Elantra.
Quote from: Rothman on May 02, 2018, 11:14:18 AM
Anyone keeping a list of the good ones?
I had a '95 Dodge Neon that was great at suppressing wind interior wind noise and buffeting.
Not sure too many folks are going to shell out $250 for one (and likely $5000 in repairs), though.
Quote from: Rothman on May 02, 2018, 11:14:18 AM
Anyone keeping a list of the good ones?
Well so far, those mentioned as falling somewhere in the range of
Acceptable to
Good are (in no particular order):
1980s and earlier cars
convertibles
some medium- and heavy-duty trucks (incl. International Durastar)
'90s Hondas (incl. 2001 Honda Accord)
'90s Subarus (incl. Legacy, Impreza)
1st-gen Jeep Liberty
2nd-gen Buick Lacrosse
5th-gen Chevrolet Camaro
3rd-gen Dodge Challenger
Toyota Corolla (assumably 11th-gen)
3rd-gen Ford Escape (despite odd creaking sound from sunroof)
PHLBOS seems to agree with my theory that cars which are very carefully tuned for aerodynamics tend to suffer from greater disruption when windows are opened and the meticulously honed body shape is altered. That would seem to corroborate some of the suggestions ('80s and older vehicles, medium/heavy trucks) but not necessarily others (current Toyota Corolla, '90s Hondas–all of which I assumed were carefully shaped to maximize fuel economy).
Quote from: formulanone on May 02, 2018, 12:27:45 PM
I had a '95 Dodge Neon that was great at suppressing wind interior wind noise and buffeting.
I'm not saying this suggestion is wrong, although I recall a particularly high number of complaints about the wind noise in the first-generation Neons. But perhaps these complaints were the result of just light winds whistling through the frameless glass door seals–not high wind turbulence in itself.
If frameless glass actually helps reduce in-cabin air turbulence, perhaps this helps explain the decent experience I had with my '90s Subarus, all of which had frameless window glass. Though its door glass was very different from most Subarus, I recall contemporary reviews stating that the SVX's odd "window within a window" led to a noticeably quieter cabin when windows were down as well.
On a slightly different topic: Does anyone have experience with window and sunroof wind deflectors? I can't say I like the look, but if they contribute to a more serene open-window cabin, they might be worth the toll on my car's appearance. I've also heard that they're good for allowing partially open windows in light to moderate rain as well.
Quote from: webny99 on May 01, 2018, 09:50:19 PM
The Taurus (which is, interestingly, used by law enforcement) and Fusion both create a horrific blowing effect with the windows down at freeway speeds. It almost "stutters", sounding like there is unbelievable amounts of resistance. This happens to a much lesser degree in larger vans and trucks I've been in.
I personally try to use freeways where possible, and as such, don't make a habit of rolling the windows down. Unbelievable how many arms I see sticking out of truck windows this time of year, though.
I'm fairly warm-blooded and seem to heat up easily, so I tend to use the AC if it's above 60 degrees or so, maybe even lower on a sunny day due to the black interior.
My wife's Escape is like this. At speed with just the driver's window down, it "flaps" (to use her term). There's even a mention in the owner's manual about it. It says. "To reduce wind noise or pulsing noise when just one windows is open, slightly open the opposite window."
This was never an issue back in the days when vehicles had vent windows. :)
Quote from: catch22 on May 02, 2018, 01:18:17 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 01, 2018, 09:50:19 PM
The Taurus (which is, interestingly, used by law enforcement) and Fusion both create a horrific blowing effect with the windows down at freeway speeds. It almost "stutters", sounding like there is unbelievable amounts of resistance. This happens to a much lesser degree in larger vans and trucks I've been in.
I personally try to use freeways where possible, and as such, don't make a habit of rolling the windows down. Unbelievable how many arms I see sticking out of truck windows this time of year, though.
I'm fairly warm-blooded and seem to heat up easily, so I tend to use the AC if it's above 60 degrees or so, maybe even lower on a sunny day due to the black interior.
My wife's Escape is like this. At speed with just the driver's window down, it "flaps" (to use her term). There's even a mention in the owner's manual about it. It says. "To reduce wind noise or pulsing noise when just one windows is open, slightly open the opposite window."
This was never ran issue back in the days when vehicles had vent windows. :)
Yeah, but then they made climate control standard, and many people quit smoking, and everything just went to hell.
Quote from: briantroutman on May 02, 2018, 01:09:54 PM
On a slightly different topic: Does anyone have experience with window and sunroof wind deflectors? I can't say I like the look, but if they contribute to a more serene open-window cabin, they might be worth the toll on my car's appearance. I've also heard that they're good for allowing partially open windows in light to moderate rain as well.
I've owned two cars with sunroofs, and would never go out of my way to buy another car that had one. The only thing I ever used them for was smoking in the car when it was too cold to roll down the windows, and the motor that operated it was just one more thing that broke and needed to be replaced.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 02, 2018, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on May 02, 2018, 01:09:54 PM
On a slightly different topic: Does anyone have experience with window and sunroof wind deflectors? I can’t say I like the look, but if they contribute to a more serene open-window cabin, they might be worth the toll on my car’s appearance. I’ve also heard that they’re good for allowing partially open windows in light to moderate rain as well.
I've owned two cars with sunroofs, and would never go out of my way to buy another car that had one. The only thing I ever used them for was smoking in the car when it was too cold to roll down the windows, and the motor that operated it was just one more thing that broke and needed to be replaced.
While I won't specifically look for a car with a sunroof/moonroof, when the car came with one I've always left the shade open to let the sun come in. I don't open them all that often though.
Quote from: briantroutman on May 02, 2018, 01:09:54 PM
Quote from: formulanone on May 02, 2018, 12:27:45 PM
I had a '95 Dodge Neon that was great at suppressing wind interior wind noise and buffeting.
I''m not saying this suggestion is wrong, although I recall a particularly high number of complaints about the wind noise in the first-generation Neons. But perhaps these complaints were the result of just light winds whistling through the frameless glass door seals–not high wind turbulence in itself.
If frameless glass actually helps reduce in-cabin air turbulence, perhaps this helps explain the decent experience I had with my '90s Subarus, all of which had frameless window glass. Though its door glass was very different from most Subarus, I recall contemporary reviews stating that the SVX's odd "window within a window" led to a noticeably quieter cabin when windows were down as well.
Back in the 70s and even early 80s, that particular style, frameless glass
with B-pillars, was commonly referred to as the
pillared-hardtop. Until the '95 Dodge/Plymouth Neon rolled out, the last 4-door pillared-hardtop from the domestic Big-Three was the '85 Cadillac Seville.
Interestingly, Subaru continuously maintained the pillared-hardtop style for its sedans & wagons up until 2009.
Current 4-door pillared-hardtops out there include (but not limited to) several if not all Tesla models, the VW CC and I believe one or two BMW models (not sure which exact ones).
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 02, 2018, 01:51:31 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on May 02, 2018, 01:09:54 PM
Quote from: formulanone on May 02, 2018, 12:27:45 PM
I had a '95 Dodge Neon that was great at suppressing wind interior wind noise and buffeting.
I''m not saying this suggestion is wrong, although I recall a particularly high number of complaints about the wind noise in the first-generation Neons. But perhaps these complaints were the result of just light winds whistling through the frameless glass door seals–not high wind turbulence in itself.
If frameless glass actually helps reduce in-cabin air turbulence, perhaps this helps explain the decent experience I had with my '90s Subarus, all of which had frameless window glass. Though its door glass was very different from most Subarus, I recall contemporary reviews stating that the SVX's odd "window within a window" led to a noticeably quieter cabin when windows were down as well.
Back in the 70s and even early 80s, that particular style, frameless glass with B-pillars, was commonly referred to as the pillared-hardtop. Until the '95 Dodge/Plymouth Neon rolled out, the last 4-door pillared-hardtop from the domestic Big-Three was the '85 Cadillac Seville.
Interestingly, Subaru continuously maintained the pillared-hardtop style for its sedans & wagons up until 2009.
Current 4-door pillared-hardtops out there include (but not limited to) several if not all Tesla models, the VW CC and I believe one or two BMW models (not sure which exact ones).
The Neon experienced varying amounts of wind noise when the windows were rolled up. The rubbery weatherstripping was mounted on the body, so there was a bit a whistle at speeds over 50 or so, increasing a bit after about 6-9 months from sparrow's chirp to Darth Vader's breathing.
I cut a thin scouring sponge (https://www.scotch-brite.com/3M/en_US/scotch-brite/tools/~/Scotch-Brite-Heavy-Duty-Scour-Pad/?N=4337+3294529207+3294631680&rt=rud) into thin strips and inserted it within the folds of the weatherstripping on both front window seals. That reduced about 90% of the noise, it wasn't visible, and it worked for about three years until a new application was needed.
The things you can do on a budget...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 02, 2018, 01:46:32 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 02, 2018, 01:36:09 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on May 02, 2018, 01:09:54 PM
On a slightly different topic: Does anyone have experience with window and sunroof wind deflectors? I can’t say I like the look, but if they contribute to a more serene open-window cabin, they might be worth the toll on my car’s appearance. I’ve also heard that they’re good for allowing partially open windows in light to moderate rain as well.
I've owned two cars with sunroofs, and would never go out of my way to buy another car that had one. The only thing I ever used them for was smoking in the car when it was too cold to roll down the windows, and the motor that operated it was just one more thing that broke and needed to be replaced.
While I won't specifically look for a car with a sunroof/moonroof, when the car came with one I've always left the shade open to let the sun come in. I don't open them all that often though.
For me, every car I've owned has had a sunroof come standard. If I had a choice, I think it would depend on what I use the car for. Daily driver? Sure, sunroof. Weekend track toy? No sunroof if possible.
Quote from: Takumi on May 02, 2018, 04:28:06 PM
For me, every car I've owned has had a sunroof come standard. If I had a choice, I think it would depend on what I use the car for. Daily driver? Sure, sunroof. Weekend track toy? No sunroof if possible.
My 2016 Buick LaCrosse is my first. My 2003 car was immobilized needing about $2,500 in repairs, and I decided to get a new car rather than fix the old. It came down to what cars were on the lot, the two cars that I liked both happened to have a sunroof.
I don't open it very often, but I often roll the curtain back and it is nice having another big window the let more light in the cabin.
As regards fresh air versus A/C, when I am driving in a car with functional A/C but it is cool enough outdoors to dispense with refrigeration, I generally try to use the blower fan instead of rolling down windows. I don't think there is such a thing as a car that doesn't see compromised NVH performance when any of its exterior glass is open, which also allows debris to blow into the passenger cabin. And even on days when outdoor temperatures are reasonably comfortable but the humidity is not, A/C is essential for dehumidification.
In summer the fuel efficiency penalty of using A/C relates most closely to the heat load that builds up from the car greenhousing while it is parked in the sun. Once the interior cools down, ongoing refrigeration demand from the A/C system is very low and it is typically impossible to see A/C use in fuel efficiency figures, especially if the car is being driven at speed on the open road. Rolling down the windows for short trips in the city in summer I can understand (heat island effect, not enough time per trip for the car interior to cool down fully, often fewer opportunities to park in shade), but on long highway trips it strikes me as a fool's bid for economy.
This conversation about rolling down windows is essentially a late-1970's kind of discussion we are having largely as a result of R-134a mobile A/C systems (post-1994) being much harder to leakproof and keep leaktight than R-12 systems (pre-1994). Given that R-134a performs mediocrely as a refrigerant and is a particularly nasty greenhouse gas, I find it easy to understand why people would rather roll down the windows than spend $70+ on a recharge that will leak out or an unknown but high and recurring cost to have the A/C system leakproofed. Given the nature of A/C system problems and the way repair shops process cars through their garages, it typically requires multiple visits to resolve leaky A/C, and each visit amounts to a roll of the dice in terms of permanent repair of all leaks. But if the car already has working, leaktight A/C, it is worth using A/C for dehumidification alone.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 03, 2018, 11:55:17 AM
As regards fresh air versus A/C, when I am driving in a car with functional A/C but it is cool enough outdoors to dispense with refrigeration, I generally try to use the blower fan instead of rolling down windows. I don't think there is such a thing as a car that doesn't see compromised NVH performance when any of its exterior glass is open, which also allows debris to blow into the passenger cabin.
Not just debris, but also bees and other insects, and over the long term it contributes to the oily film that forms on the inside of your rear window.
Any two or four door hardtop from the '50s to the '70s. Hardtops don't have B pillars so there is an unbroken open space from the A pillar to the C pillar. Some marques (Mercury, Oldsmobile, Buick, Dodge, Chrysler" had hardtop wagons, which is an unusual concept.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 30, 2018, 11:06:04 PM
The muscle car shape of my previous 5th Generation Camaro and current generation Challenger I noticed tend to keep wind out even with the window fully open. Usually I drove both of them with the window down, I suppose the gun slot size doesn't hurt keeping the noise down.
I sat in a 2010ish Camaro and the roof was just too short for me. If I leaned my head forward an inch or two to look over my shoulder, my head hit the roof and I had to contort my head uncomfortably just to be able to see over my shoulder. I'm not even all that tall (6'4") and I imagine this car would be hell for anybody over 6'6" or so. Hell, it wouldn't be comfortable for anybody over 5'10".
I can relate. It sucks to have just one window open in both of my Mustangs (2012 and 2014), and only marginally better with both sides open. It seems that when I have just the drivers window open the air gets trapped in the back seat area and fights with the air flowing in the window creating a deep buffeting that actually makes my ears pop-a very weird sensation. When I open the passenger window it seems to alleviate that pressure some, but the wind noise stays extremely loud in the car.
All of the pickups I have had in my lifetime all were great to cruise long distance at speed with the windows down. Same with my old boxy sedans over the years. The first car we had that I didn't enjoy driving with the windows down was the 1999 Grand Am my wife had when we got married. Even though it was a 4 door, it had that same pressurization issue that I described with my Mustangs.
Quote from: slorydn1 on May 09, 2018, 12:30:52 AMAll of the pickups I have had in my lifetime all were great to cruise long distance at speed with the windows down.
Many pickups also offered a rear window that opened as well which allowed the outside air to freely flow through the vehicle. Old-school station wagons that featured a
roll-down rear-tailgate window were good for such too.
One short-lived item for conventional coupes & sedans (by it standard or hardtop) was the
Breezeway feature that was offered on Lincolns, Continentals & Mercurys during the late 50s through the mid 60s. Such had a rear window that opened similar to ones on the fore-mentioned pick-up trucks.
IMHO the reasons why such was short-lived was due to the models that offered such lost out to air-conditioning, which back then was more easier to find in a Mercury or Lincoln than in Ford (which ironically didn't offer the Breezeway feature) and the fact that the reverse-style rear roofline for such was quite ugly/clashed with the rest of the car's lines (see below-pic). In hindsight had Mercury styled the rear portion of the roofline (to better conceal the reverse-angled Breezeway window from the sides) similar to the design of its later Sportsroof (as seen on the '69-'70 Marauder & Ford XL); it would've been better received.
Example of the 1963 Mercury Monterey with the Breezeway option:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.curbsideclassic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F07%2Fad-1963-mercury-breezeway.jpg&hash=0f1e6eae4e5142db31fa11e4833c4c45b9c9451c)
Quote from: PHLBOS on May 09, 2018, 09:16:31 AM
Quote from: slorydn1 on May 09, 2018, 12:30:52 AMAll of the pickups I have had in my lifetime all were great to cruise long distance at speed with the windows down.
Many pickups also offered a rear window that opened as well which allowed the outside air to freely flow through the vehicle. Old-school station wagons that featured a roll-down rear-tailgate window were good for such too.
One short-lived item for conventional coupes & sedans (by it standard or hardtop) was the Breezeway feature that was offered on Lincolns, Continentals & Mercurys during the late 50s through the mid 60s. Such had a rear window that opened similar to ones on the fore-mentioned pick-up trucks.
You realize that Continental was a separate division of Ford and that the Mark II-IV were not Lincolns. I'm impressed.
Some of the Breezeway cars looked a bit top heavy, but the '57-58 Mercury Turnpike Cruiser was plain badass...if not in a classical sense. That car was in a lot of ways the epitome of 1950s American cars. It had all the glitz, glamour and gadgetry. Give me a 1958 model with the 400 HP 430 MEL V8 with 3 2 barrel carburetors and a 3 on the tree. What a car that would be.