I know lately I have tried to avoid posting threads that I have posted on other forums, but considering there is an interest in retail on these forums based on the Kmart thread, I think it is worth posting here. If you would group major department stores into five tiers, how would you group them, from high-end to low-end?
Here are my groupings. Note that my tiers do not include off-price retailers, outlets, or warehouse clubs.
High-end:
Bloomingdale's
Nordstrom
Lord & Taylor
Neiman Marcus
Saks Fifth Avenue
Middle-High:
Macy's
Dillard's
Belk (flagship stores)
Mid-Range:
JCPenney
Kohl's
Belk (standard stores)
Middle-Low:
Sears
Low-End:
Walmart
Target
Kmart
The only outstanding one that I disagree with is that Target and Sears should be switched.
If you're not going to create a sixth "subterranean" tier for KMart, at least move WalMart and Target out of tier 5 into tier 4 (with Target more consistently belonging in tier 4 or maybe a little higher).
It's been a long time since I've been in a Sears (when I was last there, it would've been in tier 4), so I can't comment on webny99's suggestion that Sears be demoted to tier 5.
I would put Meijer and Fred Meyer in the same tier as Walmart, or maybe as Target if it goes into a different tier.
I'd put Bergdorf Goodman in the top tier, although maybe they don't qualify since they're not really a national or regional chain in the same manner as the others listed.
I think I'd move JC Penney down to the same tier as Sears. I have occasionally gone to Sears in recent years, though always to comparison-shop appliances or tools, and despite their financial issues I didn't think the store at Landmark Mall seemed like it had changed all that much (which is both good and bad, I guess!). I suppose the JC Penney at Springfield Mall maybe merits some nostalgia points from the time in the mid-1980s when the Prince and Princess of Wales (Charles and Diana) went shopping there, but on the whole I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
Same in Michigan.
Also, I'd probably put Von Maur in the middle-high range and Target at a higher level than Walmart
Walmart below Target.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I'd put Bergdorf Goodman in the top tier, although maybe they don't qualify since they're not really a national or regional chain in the same manner as the others listed.
I think I'd move JC Penney down to the same tier as Sears. I have occasionally gone to Sears in recent years, though always to comparison-shop appliances or tools, and despite their financial issues I didn't think the store at Landmark Mall seemed like it had changed all that much (which is both good and bad, I guess!). I suppose the JC Penney at Springfield Mall maybe merits some nostalgia points from the time in the mid-1980s when the Prince and Princess of Wales (Charles and Diana) went shopping there, but on the whole I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
JCPenney does carry a few of the same brands that Kohl's does such as IZOD, which are more in the mid-range of the market. JCPenney did also once try to compete with a partnership with Ralph Lauren with the American Living brand, which was comparable to the Chaps brand (also owned by Ralph Lauren) carried by Kohl's. In fact JCPenney considers Kohl's and Macy's to be its main rivals.
I usually consider Walmart and the stores similar to it, Kmart, Target, etc, to be DISCOUNT stores, not department stores.
Nevertheless, kmart belongs in a tier all by themselves, no wonder they failed here in Canada 20 years ago.
Echoing the idea that Target and Sears should be switched.
Quote from: webny99 on May 09, 2018, 03:50:28 PM
The only outstanding one that I disagree with is that Target and Sears should be switched. I'm prepared to defend that, of course, but I won't unless the need arises ;-) :popcorn:
Quote from: Takumi on May 09, 2018, 06:07:01 PM
Echoing the idea that Target and Sears should be switched.
Same here. Perhaps Walmart should be moved up as well.
Yes, Walmart is a discount store, like Gibson's and Alco were back in the day in my neck of the woods. Walmart just did it better and put both of them mostly out of business. (I think Alco is on life support still.)
Quote from: oscar on May 09, 2018, 04:04:41 PM
If you're not going to create a sixth "subterranean" tier for KMart, at least move WalMart and Target out of tier 5 into tier 4 (with Target more consistently belonging in tier 4 or maybe a little higher).
It's been a long time since I've been in a Sears (when I was last there, it would've been in tier 4), so I can't comment on webny99's suggestion that Sears be demoted to tier 5.
I would put Meijer and Fred Meyer in the same tier as Walmart, or maybe as Target if it goes into a different tier.
I'd put Meijer ahead of Walmart and I think I'd put Target ahead of Walmart too.
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
They use to sell appliances, hardware and had an auto center up until 1983.
I would split Macy's into both "middle-high" and "mid-range" depending on location. Near me, for instance, there is a distinct difference between the Macy's stores in Novi (Twelve Oaks) and Troy (Somerset Collection) and the others such as Taylor (Southland). The former stores carry clothing lines not found in the "neighborhood" mall stores and the stores are more up-to-date. The latter is not much different from the JCPenney at the other end of the mall or the Kohl's in the mall's outlot, and is badly in need of a refresh - it hasn't been updated since the Hudson's era.
Quote from: ftballfan on May 09, 2018, 05:06:20 PM
Also, I'd probably put Von Maur in the middle-high range and Target at a higher level than Walmart
Von Maur?
I've been to the Eastview location a few times, and at least from the service, the live piano player, and the general arrogance of the shoppers, it deserves a tier of its own
above the existing top tier. I felt like a fool dressed in regular jeans and a t-shirt, for whatever that's worth.
Target definitely shouldn't be in a low tier, Sears should.
To me Target is middle-of-the-road; the stereotypical middle-class one-stop shop. There aren't really any negative connotations associated with Target. There's nothing bad about it, which is why I'd hesitate to rank it so low. Walmart, on the other hand, serves this function too but trends towards the bottom of the spectrum (although some newer locations are almost on par with your average Target). Walmart certainly has some negative connotations, like being dirty, cheap, low-quality at times, and so forth, though that tends to be subjective and can vary wildly based on location.
Sears is very... average, for lack of better terms. It's certainly not towards the top of the spectrum, but I'd venture to put it between Target and Walmart, if that were an option. The store itself is less inviting than Target, but I doubt that reflects product quality.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 10, 2018, 09:57:06 AM
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on May 09, 2018, 06:25:54 PM
Quote from: Takumi on May 09, 2018, 06:07:01 PM
Echoing the idea that Target and Sears should be switched.
Same here. Perhaps Walmart should be moved up as well.
Target definitely shouldn't be in a low tier, Sears should.
Well, looks like I don't need to waste time defending my original comment then ;-)
I suppose the question is, what is the criteria for classification? Because if we're going by function, I would think Target, WalMart, and KMart would have more in common with each other, and Sears more with JCPenney and Macy's.
If I were to add a 6th category, I would put K-Mart there for a 70/80s cheap department store theme. To me they would be about equal (or perhaps a shade below) Dollar General, Family Dollar, and Fred's.
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.
I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.
I agree. The "everything" stores that sell everything from groceries to cosmetics to housewares to clothes aren't really department stores, to me. Department stores means clothes and shoes and maybe cosmetics, but not general housewares or groceries.
K-Mart and Sears are also in a special category as "walking dead". But if you categorize them by what they used to be, say 10 years ago, I guess Sears would be mid-tier and K-Mart low tier.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.
I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.
Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved. You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store. Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments. The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.
My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors. Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not. At least in my mind.
* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them. Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's. They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items. And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.
Quote from: GaryV on May 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.
I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.
Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved. You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store. Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments. The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.
My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors. Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not. At least in my mind.
* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them. Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's. They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items. And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.
Our nearest Kohl's has two sets of checkout lanes at the exits.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 12, 2018, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.
I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.
Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved. You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store. Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments. The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.
My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors. Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not. At least in my mind.
* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them. Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's. They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items. And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.
Our nearest Kohl's has two sets of checkout lanes at the exits.
I would still put Kohl's more on the traditional department store side (Sears/Penneys/Macy's) even with the registers and stand alone stores in strip malls. Besides the definitions above, I still look at it like "would this make sense being the anchor of a mall, with direct access and often multiple floors", which traditionally here in NJ at least would be those stores and not a Walmart, Kmart or a Target (but also not a Kohl's). That of course is not a good definition and is simply based on the historical anchors of malls which will probably change drastically in the future.
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 12, 2018, 11:48:17 AM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 12, 2018, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.
I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.
Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved. You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store. Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments. The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.
My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors. Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not. At least in my mind.
* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them. Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's. They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items. And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.
Our nearest Kohl's has two sets of checkout lanes at the exits.
I would still put Kohl's more on the traditional department store side (Sears/Penneys/Macy's) even with the registers and stand alone stores in strip malls. Besides the definitions above, I still look at it like "would this make sense being the anchor of a mall, with direct access and often multiple floors", which traditionally here in NJ at least would be those stores and not a Walmart, Kmart or a Target (but also not a Kohl's). That of course is not a good definition and is simply based on the historical anchors of malls which will probably change drastically in the future.
Kohl's is an (original) anchor in the 1999-built RiverTown Crossings in Grandville, MI. There were many small town malls that had Kmart as an anchor.
The idea of a "discount department store" was pioneered at Ann & Hope in RI in the 1950s. Wikipedia refers to Ann & Hope as a "self-service" department store, because typical department stores at the time had sales people in each department to help you. Ann & Hope also had shopping carts and a central register area like a supermarket, unlike other department stores at the time.
Sam Walton is said to have got ideas for his Wal-Mart store from a visit to Ann & Hope.
I think of Walmart, Kmart and Target as discount department stores, with Sears, JC Penney and Macy's as traditional department stores. Yes the lines have blurred over time (Sears uses shopping carts, for example) which makes it harder to define Kohls. I would call Kohls a traditional department store just because of the merchandise they carry.
Quote from: spooky on May 14, 2018, 07:10:07 AM
Wikipedia refers to Ann & Hope as a "self-service" department store, because typical department stores at the time had sales people in each department to help you.
That's also how they referred to the original grocery stores that were set up that way.
Quote from: ftballfan on May 13, 2018, 12:13:28 AM
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on May 12, 2018, 11:48:17 AM
Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 12, 2018, 10:52:07 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 12, 2018, 08:49:03 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 10, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I've always heard the term "department store" used to refer to outlets that sell apparel -- clothing and accessories -- and possibly appliances. Sears, Penney, former local stores such as McAlpin's and Shillito's, and the like would qualify. We have a local store with two locations that's called Rose Brothers Department Store (frequently informally referred to as Rose Bargain Store). They sell clothing, shoes, a few knick-knack items and possibly cologne/perfume.
I've never considered stores like Walmart, Kmart, Target, Meijer and the like to be "department stores" even though they have more departments than the classic department stores do.
Of course department stores got their name from how they evolved. You could go to one store to buy a dress, hat and shoes, in different "departments" of the store. Rather than having to go to 3 different establishments. The downside was that you bought what they had, rather than having something made or altered for you specifically.
My sense of a department store is one that has cash registers in the various departments*, rather than a checkout area at the exit doors. Thus Macy's, Sears and Penney are department stores; Target and K-Mart are not. At least in my mind.
* And I can recall that you were expected to pay for your purchases in the department where you found them. Heaven help you if you took an item from the men's section to a cash register in women's. They'd probably let you pay, but they weren't able to verify prices or sales items. And you took returns to the area where you bought them as well, rather than to a central returns desk in the store.
Our nearest Kohl's has two sets of checkout lanes at the exits.
I would still put Kohl's more on the traditional department store side (Sears/Penneys/Macy's) even with the registers and stand alone stores in strip malls. Besides the definitions above, I still look at it like "would this make sense being the anchor of a mall, with direct access and often multiple floors", which traditionally here in NJ at least would be those stores and not a Walmart, Kmart or a Target (but also not a Kohl's). That of course is not a good definition and is simply based on the historical anchors of malls which will probably change drastically in the future.
Kohl's is an (original) anchor in the 1999-built RiverTown Crossings in Grandville, MI. There were many small town malls that had Kmart as an anchor.
Hampton Towne Centre in Essexville had a Kmart as an anchor.
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.
Quote from: dvferyance on May 21, 2018, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.
And the "not about to die" part.
Quote from: dvferyance on May 21, 2018, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.
I disagree; JCPenney does carry some brands at a higher pricepoint than Sears. IZOD and Van Heusen are notable examples. JCPenney is more comparable to Kohl's as far as apparel goes.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on May 21, 2018, 07:17:18 PM
Quote from: dvferyance on May 21, 2018, 03:56:37 PM
Quote from: Big John on May 09, 2018, 04:59:54 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2018, 04:17:50 PM
I've always viewed JC Penney as generally comparable to Sears but without the auto center or the appliances.
The JCPenney around here (WI) has recently begun selling appliances.
What would be more accurate to say JC Penny is comparable to Sears without the auto center or electronics.
I disagree; JCPenney does carry some brands at a higher pricepoint than Sears. IZOD and Van Heusen are notable examples. JCPenney is more comparable to Kohl's as far as apparel goes.
Also, Penney's has spent a lot more $$$ in the last 20-30 years in infrastructure than Sears (JCP has a sizable number of strip mall locations in recent-growth areas)
JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.
Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.
Quote from: webny99 on May 22, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.
Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.
I would indeed put JCPenney ahead of Sears and put Target ahead of Walmart. You should see the Sears store in my town I was in there last night to enter the mall and you would think the store was closing from the way it looks they were moving everything around in one section of the store. I don't see Saginaw's Sears store on the list posted 3 days ago though.
Kohl's around here is usually in a stand alone building at least the one in Saginaw is. The other Tri-City location in Midland is in a little plaza with Five Below, Michael's, Marshall's and Ultra Beauty and there is a stand alone Dollar Tree in front of the plaza. I can't think of any Kohl's that's a mall anchor though, although it probably wouldn't do too bad being one.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 22, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.
Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.
I would indeed put JCPenney ahead of Sears and put Target ahead of Walmart. You should see the Sears store in my town I was in there last night to enter the mall and you would think the store was closing from the way it looks they were moving everything around in one section of the store. I don't see Saginaw's Sears store on the list posted 3 days ago though.
Kohl's around here is usually in a stand alone building at least the one in Saginaw is. The other Tri-City location in Midland is in a little plaza with Five Below, Michael's, Marshall's and Ultra Beauty and there is a stand alone Dollar Tree in front of the plaza. I can't think of any Kohl's that's a mall anchor though, although it probably wouldn't do too bad being one.
Kohl's is an anchor in quite a few malls. A short list:
Westland
Chicago Ridge Mall
Harlem-Irving Plaza
Spring Hill Mall
Stratford Square
Eastland Mall (Bloomington, IL)
Quote from: Brandon on May 22, 2018, 02:12:35 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 01:55:09 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 22, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
JCPenney's should be at least one tier above Sears. Similarly, Target should be at least one tier above Walmart.
Around here, Kohl's is often an anchor of a plaza, but never of a full mall.
I would indeed put JCPenney ahead of Sears and put Target ahead of Walmart. You should see the Sears store in my town I was in there last night to enter the mall and you would think the store was closing from the way it looks they were moving everything around in one section of the store. I don't see Saginaw's Sears store on the list posted 3 days ago though.
Kohl's around here is usually in a stand alone building at least the one in Saginaw is. The other Tri-City location in Midland is in a little plaza with Five Below, Michael's, Marshall's and Ultra Beauty and there is a stand alone Dollar Tree in front of the plaza. I can't think of any Kohl's that's a mall anchor though, although it probably wouldn't do too bad being one.
Kohl's is an anchor in quite a few malls. A short list:
Westland
Chicago Ridge Mall
Harlem-Irving Plaza
Spring Hill Mall
Stratford Square
Eastland Mall (Bloomington, IL)
I've never seen them. I haven't been in Westland Mall in years, I generally don't hang out in that part of Wayne County.
It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.
RiverTown Crossings has Kohl's as an anchor alongside Macy's and JCPenney (and Sears and Dick's)
Quote from: ftballfan on May 22, 2018, 03:56:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.
RiverTown Crossings has Kohl's as an anchor alongside Macy's and JCPenney (and Sears and Dick's)
Also Gurnee Mills as both Kohl's and Macy's as anchors.
Quote from: ftballfan on May 22, 2018, 03:56:51 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on May 22, 2018, 02:23:54 PM
It looks to me that the malls that you mentioned with Kohl's as an anchor they are missing either a Macy's, JCPenney or both.
RiverTown Crossings has Kohl's as an anchor alongside Macy's and JCPenney (and Sears and Dick's)
That mall seems to have quite a few anchor stores. It'll be losing Younkers.
I've seen Best Buy as an anchor store before but I can't recall which mall I was in I've seen them as an anchor twice. One I know was Harlem-Irving Plaza in Chicago, actually Norridge if you want to be exact. I'm thinking that the other one was in Palisades Mall in New York.
The traditional setting to me always was JCPenney, Sears and Hudson's (now Macy's of course). That's how Fashion Square Mall was and still is except Hudson's now being Macy's.
How many times has Walmart been an anchor at a traditional mall?
First and only one I ever encountered was Richmond Mall in Richmond, Ky. It was built in the late '80s. A few years later, Walmart built a standalone store next door to the mall (and later reverse-engineered it into a Supercenter.) Richmond Mall is dying a slow death, as Penney (the other anchor) moved to a new facility in a strip mall-type plaza on the other side of town.
I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
How many times has Walmart been an anchor at a traditional mall?
First and only one I ever encountered was Richmond Mall in Richmond, Ky. It was built in the late '80s. A few years later, Walmart built a standalone store next door to the mall (and later reverse-engineered it into a Supercenter.) Richmond Mall is dying a slow death, as Penney (the other anchor) moved to a new facility in a strip mall-type plaza on the other side of town.
I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.
The Christiana Mall in Delaware is a very strong regional mall, due to Delaware's lack of a sales tax. Overall, the mall tends to sway slightly towards the mid-to-upper elite shopper. Yet, several years ago they added a Target as an anchor, which surprised me.
For as busy as the mall and shopping complex is, there's only 2 actual entry points: From I-95/DE 1 South, and from DE 1/DE 7 North. Both put you on the south and southwest parts of the shopping complex.
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
How many times has Walmart been an anchor at a traditional mall?
First and only one I ever encountered was Richmond Mall in Richmond, Ky. It was built in the late '80s. A few years later, Walmart built a standalone store next door to the mall (and later reverse-engineered it into a Supercenter.) Richmond Mall is dying a slow death, as Penney (the other anchor) moved to a new facility in a strip mall-type plaza on the other side of town.
I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.
Springfield Mall in Springfield, VA has a Target as an anchor. I believe Prince George's Plaza did too.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.
Because it's more convenient to drive up to whatever store you need than to park in a giant parking lot and walk through Sears and past several other stores until you get to the store you need.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.
Traditional malls have the disadvantages of tying up interior space (and the costs of heating and cooling it) for inside corridors, plus (for ones with more than one level) additional space and maintenance expenses for escalators and elevators. One of the oldest malls in my area, Seven Corners Center, converted in the 1990s from a two-level traditional mall to a bi-level strip mall, largely for those reasons, as well as all its anchor stores going out of business.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.
Springfield Town Center (formerly Springfield Mall) has Target as one of its anchors. It took over the two-level space previously occupied by Montgomery Ward. Not only did Target keep the escalators, it added separate shopping cart escalators.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 22, 2018, 07:20:45 PM
park in a giant parking lot and walk through Sears and past several other stores until you get to the store you need.
You forgot to mention panties. Without fail, you always end up parking by the door that leads to women's lingerie.
Don't look at the panties. Everyone will notice you looking at the panties, and they'll think your a pervert. PANTIES!! hehehehehe..... No, don't look! Ah, geez, now that lady thinks I'm a pervert. Hmmm, I wonder what kind of panties she....NO!! STOP IT!!
Or even worse, perfume. And perfume department helpers who spray everybody they can reach without asking first.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.
Malls are also regional in nature. If I can drive by nearly any store that has what I need before I get to the mall, I'm going to just drive to those stores instead.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 22, 2018, 08:07:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out in favor of strip malls. To me it makes no sense to move from stores with weatherproof entrances to stores that all open out into a non-enclosed parking lot.
Malls are also regional in nature. If I can drive by nearly any store that has what I need before I get to the mall, I'm going to just drive to those stores instead.
The only time I need to go to multiple retail stores in one day is when shopping for Christmas presents. Other than that, malls serve no purpose to me.
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2018, 07:41:45 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 22, 2018, 07:20:45 PM
park in a giant parking lot and walk through Sears and past several other stores until you get to the store you need.
You forgot to mention panties. Without fail, you always end up parking by the door that leads to women's lingerie.
Don't look at the panties. Everyone will notice you looking at the panties, and they'll think your a pervert. PANTIES!! hehehehehe..... No, don't look! Ah, geez, now that lady thinks I'm a pervert. Hmmm, I wonder what kind of panties she....NO!! STOP IT!!
Ah, you've also seen the Christmas episode of Father Ted, then.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:23:26 PM
How many times has Walmart been an anchor at a traditional mall?
First and only one I ever encountered was Richmond Mall in Richmond, Ky. It was built in the late '80s. A few years later, Walmart built a standalone store next door to the mall (and later reverse-engineered it into a Supercenter.) Richmond Mall is dying a slow death, as Penney (the other anchor) moved to a new facility in a strip mall-type plaza on the other side of town.
I've seen Target as a mall anchor in Bloomington, Ind.
Bay City Town Center had a Target as an anchor but it closed about 3 years ago.
Midland Mall has one.
And actually Target is about to be Midland Mall's only anchor once Younker's closes, it's lost JCPenney and Sears.
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2018, 07:41:45 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 22, 2018, 07:20:45 PM
park in a giant parking lot and walk through Sears and past several other stores until you get to the store you need.
You forgot to mention panties. Without fail, you always end up parking by the door that leads to women's lingerie.
Don't look at the panties. Everyone will notice you looking at the panties, and they'll think your a pervert. PANTIES!! hehehehehe..... No, don't look! Ah, geez, now that lady thinks I'm a pervert. Hmmm, I wonder what kind of panties she....NO!! STOP IT!!
Second Floor. Hardware, children's wear, ladies' lingerie.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 22, 2018, 07:20:45 PM
Because it's more convenient to drive up to whatever store you need than to park in a giant parking lot and walk through Sears and past several other stores until you get to the store you need.
I was thinking more about getting out in the rain (or cold or snow or searing heat/tropical humidity) multiple times vs. only having to do it once.
Quote from: kphoger on May 22, 2018, 08:12:58 PM
The only time I need to go to multiple retail stores in one day is when shopping for Christmas presents. Other than that, malls serve no purpose to me.
Well, I tend to avoid crowded places like malls anyway, and the specialty stores in the malls tend to be overpriced and not carry anything I'm interested in buying, so I don't go there either. It's been years since I've been in Fayette Mall in Lexington, for instance. But for a development like the new Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington, it's a pain to go in Target, then have to get in the car and drive to the other end of the strip to shop at Office Depot, then go across the other side of the access road to Petsmart and Best Buy.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 12:03:51 PM
But for a development like the new Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington, it's a pain to go in Target, then have to get in the car and drive to the other end of the strip to shop at Office Depot, then go across the other side of the access road to Petsmart and Best Buy.
I actually find it more of a pain to have to haul all of my stuff from multiple stores to opposite ends of a mall and then shop with all those bags in my hands. Easier to stick stuff from each store in the back of the car.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 12:03:51 PM
Well, I tend to avoid crowded places like malls anyway, and the specialty stores in the malls tend to be overpriced and not carry anything I'm interested in buying, so I don't go there either. It's been years since I've been in Fayette Mall in Lexington, for instance. But for a development like the new Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington, it's a pain to go in Target, then have to get in the car and drive to the other end of the strip to shop at Office Depot, then go across the other side of the access road to Petsmart and Best Buy.
It seems like you're trying to create extreme examples here.
How often are you really shopping at all 4 stores at one time?
And sticking with your extreme examples, would you shop at Sears for a TV, then walk to Macy's for clothes with the TV in hand, then walk to, um, I guess some office supply store in the mall with your bags of TVs and clothes to pick up reams of paper, then, huh, walk to the specialty pet store for peanut butter flavored biscuits with your TV, clothes and paper?
The thing is, for me, "the mall" isn't a destination in and of itself any more. I go to Lincolnwood Mall to drop stuff off at Kohl's to return to Amazon, OR to go to Old Navy, OR to go to GNC for protein powder, OR to the Best Buy Express to pick up my new cell phone. I go to Old Orchard to go to the Apple Store OR to go to North Face. Rarely do I go to more than one store on a trip, and never when I'm going to the mall by myself.
And I suspect I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2018, 12:32:13 PM
And sticking with your extreme examples, would you shop at Sears for a TV, then walk to Macy's for clothes with the TV in hand, then walk to, um, I guess some office supply store in the mall with your bags of TVs and clothes to pick up reams of paper, then, huh, walk to the specialty pet store for peanut butter flavored biscuits with your TV, clothes and paper?
No, I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart. :bigass:
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
And propping up the mall by having Walmart move in as an anchor won't work, because Walmart would sell almost everything you could buy at the other stores in the mall. In fact, I'm not sure why Target works as an anchor at several malls.
I usually grab a slice of cookie cake at Great American Cookies after shopping at JCPenney at Crossgates Mall. I used to walk between them since I don't find it to be a burden, though I started driving the distance because I got tired of being harassed by sales people at the kiosks on the mall floor. Driving there also allows me to (legally) use the ramp to I-87 leaving the mall, since nearly every parking lot exit is posted "no left turn" (though most people ignore the signs since they likely predate the ramp being built).
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
If malls are no longer destinations in and of themselves (and, with the number of dead and dying malls, it would appear that's the case), then it stands to reason that enclosed malls are going away.
The Mall at Rockingham Park and the Pheasant Lane Mall, both in New Hampshire, are still destinations. No sales tax, and they're just across the state line.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
And tropical fish and a picnic table.
Quote from: Takumi on May 24, 2018, 01:40:34 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
And tropical fish and a picnic table.
And a paintbrush and a quilt.
Some people have really weird shopping lists.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
And a banjo?
Quote from: kkt on May 24, 2018, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
And a banjo?
Don't be silly, Walmart doesn't sell banjos.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 04:16:36 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 24, 2018, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
And a banjo?
Don't be silly, Walmart doesn't sell banjos.
But a bicycle helmet....
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 04:43:36 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 04:16:36 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 24, 2018, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
And a banjo?
Don't be silly, Walmart doesn't sell banjos.
But a bicycle helmet....
Don't be silly, you can't play a bicycle helmet.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 05:21:24 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 04:43:36 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 04:16:36 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 24, 2018, 03:34:25 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PM
I still don't understand why malls are being phased out
Quote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
I can get all those things under one roof at Walmart.
And now you understand why.
You forgot the part where I was talking about under-one-roof-malls being abandoned in favor of strip-mall-type centers.
What's old is new again, I guess, as strip malls are replacing enclosed centers in a rapid pace.
But online purchases are hurting even Walmart.
You forgot the part where you can also do your weekly grocery shopping and buy a jug of antifreeze at WalMart at the same time.
And a pair of overalls and a gun.
And a banjo?
Don't be silly, Walmart doesn't sell banjos.
But a bicycle helmet....
Don't be silly, you can't play a bicycle helmet.
[/longest quote since roadgeekteen was around]
And look at how neat and efficient the quote string is now that I condensed it. :-P
It's an optical illusion now.
On the other hand, mayonnaise is an instrument (according to Patrick Star). I may want to take that up sometime.
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 10:58:08 PMQuote from: webny99 on May 24, 2018, 10:32:15 PMQuote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 05:21:24 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 04:43:36 PMQuote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 04:16:36 PMQuote from: kkt on May 24, 2018, 03:34:25 PMQuote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
It's an optical illusion now.
We're not there yet, but I feel like we're approaching the Moirée effect.
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on May 24, 2018, 11:02:49 PM
On the other hand, mayonnaise is an instrument (according to Patrick Star). I may want to take that up sometime.
Mayo is handy to have around if you even need to tuna fish.
Quote from: kphoger on May 25, 2018, 12:52:52 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 10:58:08 PMQuote from: webny99 on May 24, 2018, 10:32:15 PMQuote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 05:21:24 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 04:43:36 PMQuote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 04:16:36 PMQuote from: kkt on May 24, 2018, 03:34:25 PMQuote from: abefroman329 on May 24, 2018, 01:15:02 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 24, 2018, 12:53:06 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 10:31:03 PMQuote from: kphoger on May 23, 2018, 02:28:41 PMQuote from: goat366 on May 22, 2018, 06:51:07 PMQuote from: hbelkins on May 23, 2018, 02:15:32 PM
It's an optical illusion now.
We're not there yet, but I feel like we're approaching the Moirée effect.
For it to be a proper quote chain, the double post has to be removed (and not removed). I have edited the quote chain accordingly.