What are some of the best and worst states in terms of effectiveness at building freeways? Whether they're good at it (e.g. NCDOT) or bad at it because of funding (NJDOT) or NIMBYism (ConnDOT).
Illinois - both. IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.
Minnesota is good. Not only is the Twin Cities very well serviced by freeways, they didn't overbuild outstate corridors that did not need to be freeways like other states did.
Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
Illinois - both. IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.
I was gonna say, Chicagoland seems to have a pretty good network! Guess it's all those toll roads evening things out.
WSDOT does great work with our freeways (usually good quality, excellent markings, meters to help with carriageway flow, ATM systems along many freeways, etc), although they aren't quick to add general purpose lanes. They're mostly into HOV and toll lanes, but that's understandable given the local growth plans. They are currently planning to build two new freeways south of Seattle starting next year, so they certainly haven't given up building big roads from scratch (a step ahead of a certain state just to the south ;-)).
I haven't been to Oahu yet, but I get the impression that HDOT doesn't really give a damn anymore. I can't recall hearing of any plans to improve flow. Then again, they don't have much room to work with.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 02:55:20 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
Illinois - both. IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.
I was gonna say, Chicagoland seems to have a pretty good network! Guess it's all those toll roads evening things out.
The ISTHA is fixing what IDOT can't do. People bitch and moan about the tolls but honestly they produce the best highway quality in the state. Small price to pay
Minnesota had that highway bridge collapse @ a decade ago, but I'm not sure if the OP is talking about quantity or quality.
Quote from: jon daly on June 14, 2018, 10:08:30 AM
Minnesota had that highway bridge collapse @ a decade ago, but I'm not sure if the OP is talking about quantity or quality.
The I-35W collapse had little to do with the original construction of the bridge, which was considered to be state of the art at the time (1964). It had a lot to do with inadequate maintenance and questionable upgrade practices between the time the bridge was built and the collapse. To MNDOT's credit, after the I-35W collapse, they took considerable remedial action to minimize the chance of collapses happening with bridges of similar design.
Quote from: ET21 on June 14, 2018, 09:42:49 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 02:55:20 AM
Quote from: Brandon on June 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM
Illinois - both. IDOT sucks dead penguin balls and ISTHA is pretty good at it, even if they are toll.
I was gonna say, Chicagoland seems to have a pretty good network! Guess it's all those toll roads evening things out.
The ISTHA is fixing what IDOT can't do. People bitch and moan about the tolls but honestly they produce the best highway quality in the state. Small price to pay
Agreed on both counts! Caltrans also was the best at building its freeway network, until the NIMBYs stepped in.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 02:55:20 AMWSDOT does great work with our freeways (usually good quality, excellent markings, meters to help with carriageway flow, ATM systems along many freeways, etc), although they aren't quick to add general purpose lanes. They're mostly into HOV and toll lanes, but that's understandable given the local growth plans. They are currently planning to build two new freeways south of Seattle starting next year, so they certainly haven't given up building big roads from scratch (a step ahead of a certain state just to the south ;-)).
I like WSDOT's freeway network as well.
If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).
I would concur that Illinois is among the worst, though I don't use their tolled roads (see my avatar). Perhaps that's on purpose, to maximize profits by letting the non-tolled roads deteriorate which might encourage those who can afford it to take the toll alternatives. But Michigan also has piss-poor quality freeways, and they don't have any toll roads (not counting bridges). Of course the Midwestern winters take their toll (pun unintentional), but MI's current administration doesn't even want to provide their citizens with potable water, let alone spend money to fix their aging freeways.
I have zero experience in the Northeast & Mid-Atlantic states (though I have heard some of the horror stories), nor have I driven in the Pacific NW, so I can't comment on freeway conditions in those areas. I have been to western PA though, and that state's poor reputation goes back to at least the mid-1960s (and is well-deserved, IMHO). Hell, they can't even build two little ramps to eliminate the Breezewood mess on I-70! But I digress...
Quote from: jon daly on June 14, 2018, 10:08:30 AM
but I'm not sure if the OP is talking about quantity or quality.
Nevermind that "effectiveness" is obscenely vague and can be measured in several different ways. Are we talking speed of construction? Density? Meeting traffic volumes? System connectivity? Major destinations? The list goes on and on...
Quote from: SSR_317 on June 14, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).
Which reminds me. I am really hoping that Arizona (or at least Maricopa County) is able to find a way to consistently fund maintenance of their freeways well into the future. It seems like many other municipalities failed to maintain their roads to the best of their ability, and are now paying the price as many older freeways' original pavement is either worn out, or quickly wearing out. Never mind outdated geometry, etc. Phoenix probably has one of the best freeway networks in the country, both in terms of roadway quality, and quantity of lanes and top-notch geometry. But it means jack-squat if they aren't able to maintain it. They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
.........They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).
Metro L.A. -- by which I mean Caltrans D7, D8, and D12 -- has been engaged in a giant game of "whack-a-mole" with their freeway network for the past several decades -- particularly since the opening of their (relatively) newer facilities (I-105, CA 210, the southern reaches of I-15, and the completed CA 71 portions). I-5 from I-605 to CA 91 is getting a complete reworking, while the stretch NW to downtown languishes in much the state it's been since the '80's. I-110 gets a capacity rebuild with double deck express lanes while parallel I-710 gets only spot repairs. And except for I-405, which was well past crisis stage, Caltrans is reluctant to do much of anything within L.A. city limits due to local blowback. Meanwhile, upgrades done in the 90's on I-10 out near El Monte are beginning to show signs of wear from simple overuse, while D7's efforts in that sub-region have been since concentrated on the parallel CA 60 to the south. By the time a revamping project is completed, attention has moved elsewhere; by the time the circle comes back around to a particular segment, it's often past the point where simple fixes will do the trick -- major rebuilds become the order of the day. It's a bloody miracle that -- considering the traffic levels -- the system isn't just plain crumbling. Segments built circa 1973 to handle traffic projected for 1983 are now hosting traffic volumes projected for 2033! And there just aren't enough funds available at any given time to do more than one major regional project plus a smattering of "spot" fixes (with the emphasis on I-5 through Santa Fe Springs and Norwalk, it's no wonder why the longstanding gap on CA 71 between CA 60 and I-10 hasn't been fully addressed). "Whack-a-mole" is about the best the region can do absent a massive simultaneous infusion of both funds and political cooperation.
Wow, IDOT's freeways get a bad rap on here, but having driven in 46 of the 50 states I don't consider IDOT's freeways to be that awful. Pennsylvania, Missouri, Hawaii, and South Carolina seem to be in worse shape than Illinois. And as others have said, the tollways in Illinois are among the best I've driven in the states. The NYS Thruway Authority should take a cue from ISTHA.
Florida is iffy for worst, as some would argue the fact that we love to implement tolls on our freeways that are built is a bad thing, some may say the opposite as building tolls are a good thing especially if they get the needed relief that the current poor pre sprawl road infrastructure wreaks on us.
Washington and Oregon seem to build good roads by and large... maintenance on the other hand is often lacking.
Michigan comes up with great ideas, builds them, then they nearly instantly go to seed.
I like what has been done in Arizona and most of Texas. Texas is impressive to me simply because a lot of what they do with their freeways (and even tollways) cannot be done in most other states. The tollways in Illinois seem to be pretty good too. I hate that California has so many issues with funding and NIMBYs. They used to be the gold standard in freeway building.
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on June 14, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).
Which reminds me. I am really hoping that Arizona (or at least Maricopa County) is able to find a way to consistently fund maintenance of their freeways well into the future. It seems like many other municipalities failed to maintain their roads to the best of their ability, and are now paying the price as many older freeways' original pavement is either worn out, or quickly wearing out. Never mind outdated geometry, etc. Phoenix probably has one of the best freeway networks in the country, both in terms of roadway quality, and quantity of lanes and top-notch geometry. But it means jack-squat if they aren't able to maintain it. They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).
Great point! Unfortunately, it seems these days the mantra of politicians (and their political appointees at state DOTs) is, "Maintenance? We don' need no stinking maintenance!" Instead, they try to sell public assets to private concerns, slap on a toll, and then use that money to pad their own pockets rather than spend it on the maintenance that is needed. All while those "privatized profits" could have been used to actually fix the roadways, while at the same time keeping them free for all users (who still have to pay fuel taxes either way).
Quote from: SSR_317 on June 17, 2018, 12:18:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 14, 2018, 01:05:50 PM
Quote from: SSR_317 on June 14, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
If we are talking quality, I'd say that Arizona ranks with the best. It helps that most of the Grand Canyon State's freeways were built from the 1980s on and the mild winter climate in much of the more populous areas of the state helps prevent rapid deterioration (though heat is an issue).
Which reminds me. I am really hoping that Arizona (or at least Maricopa County) is able to find a way to consistently fund maintenance of their freeways well into the future. It seems like many other municipalities failed to maintain their roads to the best of their ability, and are now paying the price as many older freeways' original pavement is either worn out, or quickly wearing out. Never mind outdated geometry, etc. Phoenix probably has one of the best freeway networks in the country, both in terms of roadway quality, and quantity of lanes and top-notch geometry. But it means jack-squat if they aren't able to maintain it. They'll just end up like another Los Angeles, with a giant network that really isn't of great quality (except in rebuilt areas which are of insanely-good quality).
Great point! Unfortunately, it seems these days the mantra of politicians (and their political appointees at state DOTs) is, "Maintenance? We don' need no stinking maintenance!" Instead, they try to sell public assets to private concerns, slap on a toll, and then use that money to pad their own pockets rather than spend it on the maintenance that is needed. All while those "privatized profits" could have been used to actually fix the roadways, while at the same time keeping them free for all users (who still have to pay fuel taxes either way).
I'm not sure how the privatised roads work in other parts of the country. We don't have those in Washington. Up here, it's becoming common for express lanes with tolls to replace HOV lanes, and the toll money goes mostly into roadway maintenance and improvements (see page 34 of this PDF (https://goo.gl/wnkN7F) -- only about 11% of the income goes to vendors). Just in that respect, I think tolls are great. Let the Lexus Lanes pay for the maintenance! :-D
It does seem a bit extreme to suggest tolls pad pockets instead of pay for maintenance. I don't think there's much of any evidence to support that. For some reason, these outsource fees are a common complaint out here, where only ~11% of toll income goes to the vendors (not much overall). Most agencies just don't have the resources to run these facilities, so they have to be outsourced to companies like Kapsch (which runs the 405 toll lanes here in WA, along with several other facilities like those in CA).
I've lived in Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and Delaware.
I'm more in tune with Delaware's transportation projects as I've spent my first true adult years here and have really gotten involved in transportation workshops and whatnot. DE-1 and I-495 are fantastic (modern, high-speed roads with solid traffic flow), but I-95 and I-295 are a bit iffy. When I lived in Newark, I always got off at Exit 4B instead of Exit 1 or 3, because I absolutely hated getting off at those exits with their short weaves and merge space. I blame the rampant suburbanization/development that has occurred in Delaware in recent years for all this congestion. I-295 just seems to be a chronic mess of construction.
Connecticut's expressways were plentiful, at least from my perspective, but fairly archaic. Of course, I-84 between Waterbury and Hartford and I-95 come to mind. CT-9 is my favorite highway and always will be, but those pesky stoplights in Middletown hinder it so badly (though I've heard they're removing them). I-91 is pretty solid as it is, despite the frequent left exits. But I went to Eastern CT State University, so the completion of I-384/84 would have been very welcome in my eyes. By my senior year, I discovered I could take CT-31 instead of US-6 to get back home to South Windsor. Definitely a much nicer (or at least prettier) ride.
Pennsylvania's expressways, though, are just a disaster, particularly in the urban areas (I've never been west of State College, btw). Sure, the 1950s design can be charming, but that's only when someone else is doing the driving! Otherwise, it can be very stressful. I remember when I drove I-476 up to my grandparents' house and was constantly worried I would crash into the median, with how little space there is on that road. However, I know the constraint there was the mountainous terrain of the Poconos. I-95 through PA is equally as stressful, with people zooming by you when you're doing 70 through Philadelphia. It probably also doesn't help that my car is ancient...
Does Texas's grandiose designs make it good or bad?
PA and IN suck. WA has always managed to impress me.
Florida does. It have enough freeways in my mind. The interstates were planned back when Florida has a population of 4-5 million.
For a long time the divided US highways were high speed corridors but with time many if not most have become horrible traffic light infested suburban slog ways. There are examples near every city. ( US 19 in Hernando County, US1, US 27 near Clermont to name a few)
The state should have had some foresight or planning in place to limit development so the roads could be freeways or at the very least expressways (in the California sense, traditionally expressway was the term used for freeways in Florida) when needed
Z981
PennDOT's new construction tends to be quite nice. If anything, my experience in western and central PA is that it tends to border on overbuilt. The issue with PA is that it still has a lot of stuff of 1950s and 1960s vintage around.
Quote from: jwolfer on June 20, 2018, 06:40:15 PM
For a long time the divided US highways were high speed corridors but with time many if not most have become horrible traffic light infested suburban slog ways. There are examples near every city. ( US 19 in Hernando County, US1, US 27 near Clermont to name a few)
The state should have had some foresight or planning in place to limit development so the roads could be freeways or at the very least expressways (in the California sense, traditionally expressway was the term used for freeways in Florida) when needed
Z981
Delaware has so many problems with this. I remember reading the story of DE-1 (I think on the AARoads site) and thinking of what a mess US-13 really is. It would take me 20 minutes to get from my apartment to the other side of Dover (only 5 miles), maybe 12-15 minutes on an early weekend morning.
Granted, Connecticut isn't much better. The Berlin Turnpike (US-5/CT-15 between Meriden and Wethersfield) is another mess, but if I remember correctly, I don't think it's as bad as some of the divided highways in DE.
Quote from: Bitmapped on June 20, 2018, 09:50:15 PM
PennDOT's new construction tends to be quite nice. If anything, my experience in western and central PA is that it tends to border on overbuilt. The issue with PA is that it still has a lot of stuff of 1950s and 1960s vintage around.
I wouldn't say anything in PA is
overbuilt, but I definitely agree that with adequate funding and will behind it, PennDOT builds (and reconstructs) things very nicely. For example, the upgrades along I-81 and I-84/380 done as part of the US 6 expressway project near Scranton were some of the best PennDOT's done in a long time. The 95revive project is shaping up the same way. The only flaws with the former are that they didn't make any accommodations for widening I-81 to the north or south of the major interchange, and didn't take the six-laning of 84/380 all the way to the split of the two. Similarly, they really should be taking the eight-lane configuration of I-95 all the way to Woodhaven Road. Academy to Woodhaven is getting pretty bad.
Their new-construction expressways are great too, though rare and usually only in bits and pieces at a time (e.g. the CSVT, US 219 in Somerset County, the one-ramp-at-a-time rate that the remaining I-99 upgrades seem to be going at, etc.). The problem really is just how many outdated sections of expressway there are in the state, as well as how many missing links there still are.
I don't know if I would call a deck truss bridge state of the art in 1964. By that date, truss bridges were becoming rare except for very long crossings.
Texas is quite good at building freeways. They build proper 4 and 5 level stacks where two freeways cross (except for the places where they punt and build volleyballs, even though these interchanges are upgradable in the future) and when they build at-grade expressways, they often build them with room in the median for freeway lanes in the future.
Arkansas builds decent freeways, but they don't do a good job on expressways. Instead of building proper freeways or divided expressways, they tend to build ghetto 5 lane undivided "Arkansas Freeways" which are less safe than divided highways. In at least one instance, an "Arkansas Freeway" has been upgraded on the cheap to a divided highway by placing Jersey barriers in the center turning lane.
Oklahoma builds decent rural freeways, but they are still stuck in a time when cloverleafs were considered acceptable. They don't often upgrade cloverleafs to proper interchanges even when the cloverleafs are functionally obsolete and are bottlenecks that cause traffic jams. Back in the 1970s, they built freeways with tons of left exits and entrances and used substandard designs that would have been obsolete in the 1940s. For example, I-244 in Tulsa is 15.75 miles long and has 23 left exits and entrances. That is just plain piss poor design. There are nearly 1 1/2 left exits or entrances per mile on this freeway. The downtown section, part of the IDL (Inner Dispersal Loop) is terrible and quite dangerous. I hate driving downtown because the IDL is so scary. Why they ever thought that these interchanges were acceptable is beyond me.
Among the states I have driven in a lot, I really like the Kansas freeways (when the funds aren't being raided by the state govt). Iowa and Nebraska's freeways are usually pretty good. Missouri isn't too bad considering how many roads they have to maintain. As posted earlier, IDOT's freeways aren't the greatest but the toll roads in Chicago are pretty good.
Living in Missouri, I have to say I love our freeways. They're not perfect, but MODOT does a damn good job at maintaining what they have, especially in St. Louis. They've recently been stepping up their game in repairing old freeways instead of building new ones. The "new I-64," which isn't "new" per se given it was finished nearly a decade ago, is very nice, and they're extending the new concrete roadway all the way to downtown in some cases (the double decker route of I-64 that goes through downtown St. Louis is now a concrete roadway on both decks) and they're rebuilding a number of overpasses along the I-44 corridor. It's a far cry from what IDOT is doing across the river.
Quote from: bugo on June 21, 2018, 03:50:11 AM
Texas is quite good at building freeways. They build proper 4 and 5 level stacks where two freeways cross (except for the places where they punt and build volleyballs, even though these interchanges are upgradable in the future if substantial private development isn't deployed around the interchange's perimeter) and when they build at-grade expressways, they often build them with room in the median for freeway lanes in the future.
FTFY. Example: I-35 @ US 190 in Temple.
I-44 east of Springfield is awful.
Quote from: bugo on June 30, 2018, 03:29:43 AM
I-44 east of Springfield is awful.
Agreed. I can't stand driving it as it is now. Thankfully I usually commute between my mom's house and my dad's house on I-64. MODOT is reconstructing a lot of the overpasses on I-44 through STL and it makes it hell to drive, but I hope it'll be worth it once everything's done.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on June 30, 2018, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 30, 2018, 03:29:43 AM
I-44 east of Springfield is awful.
Agreed. I can't stand driving it as it is now. Thankfully I usually commute between my mom's house and my dad's house on I-64. MODOT is reconstructing a lot of the overpasses on I-44 through STL and it makes it hell to drive, but I hope it'll be worth it once everything's done.
IIRC, the section immediately east of Springfield was one of the first sections of I-44 to be built circa 1958-59 (I traveled it as a kid the summer of '60); the last time I was on I-44 heading back from St. Louis, about 2000, the entire route seemed to be showing its age even back then. The pavement between Lebanon and Springfield was virtually crumbling; in places the shoulders had large chunks broken off the outer edges -- and this was 18 years ago -- I would imagine some spot repairs have been done in the interim if not a full repave. Nevertheless, the problems likely go down all the way to the ballast; that segment may need more than the usual asphalt cap; it may need a total from-the-ground-up rebuild (which MODOT can ill afford!). Nevertheless, it's
not atypical of situations all over the system; strapped states can't afford to do much to keep the system in exemplary condition. While both age and weather may make the MO situation worse, they're not in that particular boat alone!
Quote from: sparker on June 30, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on June 30, 2018, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 30, 2018, 03:29:43 AM
I-44 east of Springfield is awful.
Agreed. I can't stand driving it as it is now. Thankfully I usually commute between my mom's house and my dad's house on I-64. MODOT is reconstructing a lot of the overpasses on I-44 through STL and it makes it hell to drive, but I hope it'll be worth it once everything's done.
IIRC, the section immediately east of Springfield was one of the first sections of I-44 to be built circa 1958-59 (I traveled it as a kid the summer of '60); the last time I was on I-44 heading back from St. Louis, about 2000, the entire route seemed to be showing its age even back then. The pavement between Lebanon and Springfield was virtually crumbling; in places the shoulders had large chunks broken off the outer edges -- and this was 18 years ago -- I would imagine some spot repairs have been done in the interim if not a full repave. Nevertheless, the problems likely go down all the way to the ballast; that segment may need more than the usual asphalt cap; it may need a total from-the-ground-up rebuild (which MODOT can ill afford!). Nevertheless, it's not atypical of situations all over the system; strapped states can't afford to do much to keep the system in exemplary condition. While both age and weather may make the MO situation worse, they're not in that particular boat alone!
(https://i.imgur.com/zink46i.jpg)
I think you're right; I've seen a number of photos of newly-designated I-44 from the late '50s. I find myself driving out west on I-44 to Pacific/Wildwood (I have some family around that area) and even the drive there can be rough. The pavement has definitely fallen prey to spot repair to the point where the surface of the road is unbearably coarse. MODOT will struggle to figure out how to fix that mess completely; they repaved some parts of it immediately east of I-270 but not much else. It just needs a lot of work.
I'm going to hate on Indiana...
This whole I-69 project/Bloomington area has been a giant fail in how it was bid out and the schedule of the build.
Basically, actually failing at building a new Freeway
To their credit, InDOT has reasserted control of the project, and is now making good progress towards the completion of this section
Sometimes, the Public Sector really is better suited for a job vs the Private Sector
Ohio has been good at building new freeways, although the time it took to create and/or finish some of the freeways could've been done sooner.
Colorado, OTOH, did a terrible job. Take pretty much all of the freeways in the Denver Metro area, which is growing like weeds in a vacant lot: All were underbuilt and now they are playing catch-up in widening them -- mostly by making the additional lanes HOT lanes.
The last two freeway links to be completed around Denver, I-270 and I-76 AT and WEST of I-25, were built with just 2 lanes in each direction.
Quote from: wolfiefrick on June 30, 2018, 07:33:29 PM
Quote from: sparker on June 30, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on June 30, 2018, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 30, 2018, 03:29:43 AM
I-44 east of Springfield is awful.
Agreed. I can't stand driving it as it is now. Thankfully I usually commute between my mom's house and my dad's house on I-64. MODOT is reconstructing a lot of the overpasses on I-44 through STL and it makes it hell to drive, but I hope it'll be worth it once everything's done.
IIRC, the section immediately east of Springfield was one of the first sections of I-44 to be built circa 1958-59 (I traveled it as a kid the summer of '60); the last time I was on I-44 heading back from St. Louis, about 2000, the entire route seemed to be showing its age even back then. The pavement between Lebanon and Springfield was virtually crumbling; in places the shoulders had large chunks broken off the outer edges -- and this was 18 years ago -- I would imagine some spot repairs have been done in the interim if not a full repave. Nevertheless, the problems likely go down all the way to the ballast; that segment may need more than the usual asphalt cap; it may need a total from-the-ground-up rebuild (which MODOT can ill afford!). Nevertheless, it's not atypical of situations all over the system; strapped states can't afford to do much to keep the system in exemplary condition. While both age and weather may make the MO situation worse, they're not in that particular boat alone!
(https://i.imgur.com/zink46i.jpg)
I think you're right; I've seen a number of photos of newly-designated I-44 from the late '50s. I find myself driving out west on I-44 to Pacific/Wildwood (I have some family around that area) and even the drive there can be rough. The pavement has definitely fallen prey to spot repair to the point where the surface of the road is unbearably coarse. MODOT will struggle to figure out how to fix that mess completely; they repaved some parts of it immediately east of I-270 but not much else. It just needs a lot of work.
Appears as if the shoulder in the vintage I-44/US-66 picture is simply uncompacted millings. The proximity of the bridge piers and the lack of protection is visible in the background. Unfortunate that the desire to (or obsession) to decertify US-66 was pursued. It could be been duplexed along with it's replacement Interstate in most areas, and been paired with the Business Interstate loop through towns and cities.
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 30, 2018, 08:06:47 PM
I'm going to hate on Indiana...
This whole I-69 project/Bloomington area has been a giant fail in how it was bid out and the schedule of the build.
Basically, actually failing at building a new Freeway
To their credit, InDOT has reasserted control of the project, and is now making good progress towards the completion of this section
Sometimes, the Public Sector really is better suited for a job vs the Private Sector
You'll get no argument from THIS Hoosier!
These so-called "public-private partnerships" (P3s) are rarely a good idea, but politicians are fond of them because they can "reward" their campaign contributors with lucrative projects at public expense (with all too often little to no oversight or public input). Even if that failed private venture had delivered the upgrade of SR 37 to I-69 between Bloomington & Martinsville on time, does anyone really believe that private entity would've spend one dime on its proper maintenance (Including timely snow removal) going forward? Not if interfered with their profits! So glad the state came to its senses in terminating that failed P3 agreement and taking the project management & future maintenance back over itself. And the up side of this fiasco is that I-69 SIU 3 Section 6 (just to the north of there) will go forward under the traditional model - with INDOT in change, contracting the work out to legitimate private sector firms with proven track records, while insuring the necessary oversight is in place.
I'm not a believer in many conspiracy theories, but one might make a case that this particular P3 was set up to fail intentionally, as a "punishment" to the people of the Bloomington area, which was a hotbed of opposition the the entire Indy to Evansville via Bloomington freeway routing for many years. I don't personally believe this to be the case, but it is kinda ironic that the only section of the project that has had such major problems is in that particular area.
Quote from: sparker on June 30, 2018, 03:11:44 PM
Quote from: wolfiefrick on June 30, 2018, 12:59:28 PM
Quote from: bugo on June 30, 2018, 03:29:43 AM
I-44 east of Springfield is awful.
Agreed. I can't stand driving it as it is now. Thankfully I usually commute between my mom's house and my dad's house on I-64. MODOT is reconstructing a lot of the overpasses on I-44 through STL and it makes it hell to drive, but I hope it'll be worth it once everything's done.
IIRC, the section immediately east of Springfield was one of the first sections of I-44 to be built circa 1958-59 (I traveled it as a kid the summer of '60); the last time I was on I-44 heading back from St. Louis, about 2000, the entire route seemed to be showing its age even back then. The pavement between Lebanon and Springfield was virtually crumbling; in places the shoulders had large chunks broken off the outer edges -- and this was 18 years ago -- I would imagine some spot repairs have been done in the interim if not a full repave. Nevertheless, the problems likely go down all the way to the ballast; that segment may need more than the usual asphalt cap; it may need a total from-the-ground-up rebuild (which MODOT can ill afford!).
There have been a few spot reconstructions on I-44. About 10 years ago now the section through Eureka was rebuilt from the subgrade up, and I seem to recall a rebuild of the westbound lanes near Cuba.
NYS can't even upgrade NY 17 to I-86, let alone build new highways/freeways. The last freeway that I can recall personally being built from scratch is the U.S. 219 extension, a paltry 4 mile upgrade.
Maintenance is hit or miss. The Thruway is in immaculate conditions, while I-88 for example (from what I've heard here) is a mess. Parkways are also abysmal, and I can't speak for downstate at all, even though I wish I could.
Quote from: Buffaboy on July 01, 2018, 04:03:21 PM
The last freeway that I can recall personally being built from scratch is the U.S. 219 extension, a paltry 4 mile upgrade.
There have been two other new freeway projects in the last decade; NY's portion of I-99 from Presho to the PA Line (6 miles) and I-781 (4 miles). Prospect Mountain and the new Tappan Zee bridge are both noteworthy infrastructure projects, involving new construction per se but not a new route designation.
On the other hand, the list of long-overdue projects is much more extensive. Completion of I-86, completion of the US 219 freeway, extensions of I-990 and NY 531, improvements to (if not freeway bypasses of) the US 20A, US 11, NY 13 and NY 104 corridors, to name a few.
NY doesn't seem to consider the four-laning rural of State Routes, as has become routine in other states. This should be considered more often; NY 104 between Williamson and Wolcott is one example of a super-2 with plenty of right-of-way that couldn't be too expensive to widen.
Quote from: Buffaboy on July 01, 2018, 04:03:21 PM
NYS can't even upgrade NY 17 to I-86, let alone build new highways/freeways. The last freeway that I can recall personally being built from scratch is the U.S. 219 extension, a paltry 4 mile upgrade.
Maintenance is hit or miss. The Thruway is in immaculate conditions, while I-88 for example (from what I've heard here) is a mess. Parkways are also abysmal, and I can't speak for downstate at all, even though I wish I could.
Im guessing it had to do with what DOT region you're in. On the contrary I think 75% of NYS parkways are in good shape. Robert Moses SP and the north end of the TSP are the only two stretches that i know need some love.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 02, 2018, 10:32:27 PM
On the contrary I think 75% of NYS parkways are in good shape. Robert Moses SP and the north end of the TSP are the only two stretches that i know need some love.
Lake Ontario State Parkway west of Hamlin Beach needs a lot more than love. It's in a state of utter disrepair, to the point of being undriveable, though there has been supposed repair work going on (and a long-term eastbound closure, if I recall correctly) for the past several summers.
Fortunately, the LOSP (as with many state parkways, the Taconic being the notable exception) doesn't provide a crucial connection to the motoring public. It is most used by those looking for a scenic summer drive, and hardly ever used by necessary long-distance traffic. What little of that there is can choose between the smoother and more straightforward NY 18 and NY 104 corridors.
I am pretty sure there have been a couple of recent projects on the LOSP. Unfortunately, I will not be able to confirm until I return from vacation on the 16th.
Was I-44 ever signed on what is now Route Z through the Hooker Cut?
My understanding is that the LOSP had a paving project last year from Rochester to NY 19 and then this year from NY 19 to NY 237. Nothing planned west of their as far as I know.
Quote from: bugoOklahoma builds decent rural freeways, but they are still stuck in a time when cloverleafs were considered acceptable. They don't often upgrade cloverleafs to proper interchanges even when the cloverleafs are functionally obsolete and are bottlenecks that cause traffic jams. Back in the 1970s, they built freeways with tons of left exits and entrances and used substandard designs that would have been obsolete in the 1940s. For example, I-244 in Tulsa is 15.75 miles long and has 23 left exits and entrances. That is just plain piss poor design. There are nearly 1 1/2 left exits or entrances per mile on this freeway. The downtown section, part of the IDL (Inner Dispersal Loop) is terrible and quite dangerous. I hate driving downtown because the IDL is so scary. Why they ever thought that these interchanges were acceptable is beyond me.
It kind of sucks that Oklahoma is right next door to Texas. Pretty much anything Texas is doing right with building their freeways just shows how Oklahoma is doing it
wrong.
Oklahoma likes building cloverleaf interchanges because they are
cheap compared to the cost of a 4 or 5 level direct-connect stack interchange. Oklahoma has no true stack interchanges in its freeway/turnpike system. The nearest thing to it is the I-40 & I-44 interchange in OKC. Two interchanges along I-244 in downtown Tulsa have no cloverleaf ramps, but the ramp geometry has some ramps turning so tight they might as well be cloverleaf ramps!
Probably my biggest gripe by far with Oklahoma is the state is laughably, pathetically, stupidly BAD at planning for the future. One good example is the Kilpatrick Turnpike extension from I-40 on South via a very curvy alignment to merely Airport Road. This extension should have gone directly South along Sara Road down to I-44 to meet up with the H.E. Bailey Turnpike extension and then go East to I-35. That would have been the correct thing to do. If this road building situation had been in Texas it would have been executed properly.
Long ago Texas got into the habit of securing future freeway corridors by way of building surface streets with wide medians or taking other steps acquiring ROW well in advance. Oklahoma has hardly any examples of this kind of future-proof planning, if there are any examples at all. Texas isn't perfect by any stretch. Certain cities have some difficult road planning issues. For instance in Austin it's pretty obvious US-290 will need to be upgraded to a freeway completely out of the Western fringes of metro Austin and over to I-10. It's not going to be easy to do that. But TX DOT still may get the job done.
Meanwhile here in Oklahoma we can't seem to do squat. They've been working on the I-44/I-235/Broadway Extension freeway interchange upgrade project for a full decade now. And they're still years away from being finished with it. The end result will feature two damned cloverleaf ramps along with other more direct-connect ramps.
Overall, no states are perfect at planning and building freeways anymore. And that's because each state on its own has limited resources. The situation for freeways and highways in general was much better when the federal government was far more involved.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on July 07, 2018, 11:32:23 PM
Overall, no states are perfect at planning and building freeways anymore. And that's because each state on its own has limited resources. The situation for freeways and highways in general was much better when the federal government was far more involved.
NIMBYism also makes things difficult in the northeast. One of my biggest gripes about visiting family is that all the roads in suburban Philadelphia are a nightmare.
I remember moving from CT to DE and thinking things were nuts in DE, but our roads at least don't have as much traffic as in PA.
Speaking of which, some nutjob hit me and ran earlier today on US-13 because he decided not to stop at a stop sign... :meh:
QuoteIt kind of sucks that Oklahoma is right next door to Texas. Pretty much anything Texas is doing right with building their freeways just shows how Oklahoma is doing it wrong.
Long ago Texas got into the habit of securing future freeway corridors by way of building surface streets with wide medians or taking other steps acquiring ROW well in advance. Oklahoma has hardly any examples of this kind of future-proof planning, if there are any examples at all. Texas isn't perfect by any stretch.
Overall, no states are perfect at planning and building freeways anymore. And that's because each state on its own has limited resources. The situation for freeways and highways in general was much better when the federal government was far more involved.
El Paso district shows where it is going wrong. A lot of money spent, but enormous blunders committed. Some include:
a] So called "Go 10" Failure to address and geometrically fix I-10 by shifting West. Obsession with Loop "completion" instead.
b) Failure to get an Interstate route to the NM state line, directly aiming at Anthony Gap. Which would force New Mexico to complete it, creating a true bypass, (I-210), not a mountain parkway (loop 375) which is not Class A trucking friendly.
c) Loop 375 mish-mash. Some sections near or at Interstate grade, while others are built to a lower standard, or even downgraded such as near Fort Bliss (Spur 601) "connection" with a hideous shift N of there.
d) I-10 piecemeal interchange replacements and "improvements" A twenty year pattern of mistakes - from the Zaragosa interchange (1997), to lane shifts at Raynolds (2000), to Redd Road (2002), Anthony exit 0 (2001) and Vinton (2003) and its later hideous add a U Turn.
Nothing fits together, or appears to be planned as part of a general effort to widen and modernize.
---quote fix --sso
Quote from: DJStephens on July 08, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
QuoteIt kind of sucks that Oklahoma is right next door to Texas. Pretty much anything Texas is doing right with building their freeways just shows how Oklahoma is doing it wrong.
Long ago Texas got into the habit of securing future freeway corridors by way of building surface streets with wide medians or taking other steps acquiring ROW well in advance. Oklahoma has hardly any examples of this kind of future-proof planning, if there are any examples at all. Texas isn't perfect by any stretch.
Overall, no states are perfect at planning and building freeways anymore. And that's because each state on its own has limited resources. The situation for freeways and highways in general was much better when the federal government was far more involved.
El Paso district shows where it is going wrong. A lot of money spent, but enormous blunders committed. Some include:
a] So called "Go 10" Failure to address and geometrically fix I-10 by shifting West. Obsession with Loop "completion" instead.
b) Failure to get an Interstate route to the NM state line, directly aiming at Anthony Gap. Which would force New Mexico to complete it, creating a true bypass, (I-210), not a mountain parkway (loop 375) which is not Class A trucking friendly.
c) Loop 375 mish-mash. Some sections near or at Interstate grade, while others are built to a lower standard, or even downgraded such as near Fort Bliss (Spur 601) "connection" with a hideous shift N of there.
d) I-10 piecemeal interchange replacements and "improvements" A twenty year pattern of mistakes - from the Zaragosa interchange (1997), to lane shifts at Raynolds (2000), to Redd Road (2002), Anthony exit 0 (2001) and Vinton (2003) and its later hideous add a U Turn.
Nothing fits together, or appears to be planned as part of a general effort to widen and modernize.
It's not something I noticed when I was younger, but I ask myself why upstate NY cities like Buffalo, which in the 1950s had little growth beyond I-90/I-290, didn't do the same thing. Today, we are stuck with NY-78, "Transit Road," a 30 or so mile 4-6 lane surface highway which connects the city of Lockport with I-90 and the "Southtowns." The problem with this is that even with all of the expansions its had over the years, it remains an overloaded collector road at peak times, has a lot of businesses, communities and neighborhoods that feed into it, and lots of vacant land that will likely be developed in the coming decade. Not to mention the fact that the Eastern Hills Mall will be closing to be replaced with a "lifestyle center."
If the planners made Transit Road a pair of frontage roads, OR built frontage roads 1/4-1/8 mile to the east, this would make commuting around that area much easier. As many people here can attest, it isn't.
Something tells me there are worse examples out there.
quote fix --sso
Quote from: Buffaboy on July 08, 2018, 10:19:32 PM
It's not something I noticed when I was younger, but I ask myself why upstate NY cities like Buffalo, which in the 1950s had little growth beyond I-90/I-290, didn't do the same thing. Today, we are stuck with NY-78, "Transit Road," a 30 or so mile 4-6 lane surface highway which connects the city of Lockport with I-90 and the "Southtowns." The problem with this is that even with all of the expansions its had over the years, it remains an overloaded collector road at peak times, has a lot of businesses, communities and neighborhoods that feed into it, and lots of vacant land that will likely be developed in the coming decade. Not to mention the fact that the Eastern Hills Mall will be closing to be replaced with a "lifestyle center."
If the planners made Transit Road a pair of frontage roads, OR built frontage roads 1/4-1/8 mile to the east, this would make commuting around that area much easier. As many people here can attest, it isn't.
Something tells me there are worse examples out there.
I despise Transit Road. I have used it many times when visiting friends in the area around East Aurora.
CT is awful... they can't get it done....they just can't. It's a vicious cycle, plans for a study, then another study, then there's no money, then there's no political will.
The last new expressway was US-7 north of Danbury, CT. It was only extended 3 miles.
CT just can't get the widening of existing expressways started. I-84 in the western half of the state, they've been trying for 18 years for the above cycle. If they do widen it, it's usually half assed, or it's not widened enough to truly help congestion. (I-95 South in West Haven comes to mind, the new 4th lane should go down to Exit 42, not 44)
Quote from: Beltway on July 08, 2018, 11:30:48 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on July 08, 2018, 10:19:32 PM
It's not something I noticed when I was younger, but I ask myself why upstate NY cities like Buffalo, which in the 1950s had little growth beyond I-90/I-290, didn't do the same thing. Today, we are stuck with NY-78, "Transit Road," a 30 or so mile 4-6 lane surface highway which connects the city of Lockport with I-90 and the "Southtowns."
I despise Transit Road. I have used it many times when visiting friends in the area around East Aurora.
Transit Road is a Buffalo specialty. Rochester and Syracuse don't really have an equivalent.
We can complain all we want (and we will, trust me!) but we know nothing about the traffic that people in big cities deal with all the time. If anything, upstate cities are examples of cities with excellent planning in early years, but irregular and unexpected pockets of growth causing congestion to pop up here and there. Any congestion problems we have are specific to a single location or corridor; nothing like the chronic and system-wide oversaturation of the road network seen in LA, San Fran, and NYC.
Quote from: webny99 on July 10, 2018, 08:41:59 PM
Quote from: Beltway on July 08, 2018, 11:30:48 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on July 08, 2018, 10:19:32 PM
It's not something I noticed when I was younger, but I ask myself why upstate NY cities like Buffalo, which in the 1950s had little growth beyond I-90/I-290, didn't do the same thing. Today, we are stuck with NY-78, "Transit Road," a 30 or so mile 4-6 lane surface highway which connects the city of Lockport with I-90 and the "Southtowns."
I despise Transit Road. I have used it many times when visiting friends in the area around East Aurora.
Transit Road is a Buffalo specialty. Rochester and Syracuse don't really have an equivalent.
We can complain all we want (and we will, trust me!) but we know nothing about the traffic that people in big cities deal with all the time. If anything, upstate cities are examples of cities with excellent planning in early years, but irregular and unexpected pockets of growth causing congestion to pop up here and there. Any congestion problems we have are specific to a single location or corridor; nothing like the chronic and system-wide oversaturation of the road network seen in LA, San Fran, and NYC.
That's a fair point. Philadelphia people (on the PA and NJ side) seem to think Delaware traffic is a joke. While I've only driven through Wilmington during rush hour a handful of times, I always was reasonably able to get out of it (when I lived in Newark, I would take US-13 South to DE-273 West to DE-58 West to DE-4 West and usually getting to Newark was less painful that way instead of I-95, although with all the lights it took about 45 minutes instead of the 25 minutes it took taking I-95...outside of rush hour).
Anyway, my point is that PA's roads in the Philly area are absolutely terrible. There are very few expressways, with several heavily congested two-lane roads that pass for arterials around there. Can't really speak for New Jersey simply because I rarely would go there, but when I'd drive on I-295 to visit family on the PA/NJ line, 295 was incredibly stressful. Delaware only has a handful of bad areas for traffic. When I commuted Newark to Dover everyday for my first two months working for Highway Safety, I never had traffic issues. It took 45 minutes to 1 hour to drive 45 miles.