Some interesections in Tokyo allow pedestrians to cross a street diagonally and San Antonio experiment this system http://www.onthemoveblog.com/2010/01/are-you-ready-to-do-the-pedestrian-scramble/
I wonder the "pedestrian scramble" it could work in NYC, Chicago, Toronto, Montreal....?
I believe such a thing exists in Pasadena, CA.
it may very well help Manhattan, but Manhattan seems to have figured out its own set of rules, in which turns are made well past the point where the light has changed to red - usually one enters the intersection on green and waits to turn while pedestrians are crossing the lane to be turned into, and then when the pedestrians clear (and the light is red), the turn is completed. That's pretty standard - however, it is customary for vehicles intending to make the turn who had not been able to enter the intersection on green to follow!
since there is room for more cars to queue up to turn left, Manhattan might very well be the only place in a right-hand-drive country where it is easier to make a left turn than a right turn!
in Manhattan, if you change over to an all-pedestrians phase, expect to see a lot of red lights being run!
Denver has these and has had them for at least 25 yrs.
--Andy
Such things are uncommon in Europe as most pedestrian-streets have low to no motorized traffic.
Pedestrian scrambles can be common in places where a lot of pedestrians are present on wide streets, like in Asian and North-American city centers. One of the most famous scramble is a pedestrian crossing in Shibuya, Tokyo.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fe%2Fe2%2FShibuya_night.jpg%2F800px-Shibuya_night.jpg&hash=28f8223d2c6deccb97a655b8a535994bd446d1d8)
Shockingly, Laramie Wyoming has one of these at the intersection of 15th St and Ivinson St. This the primary connection from the dorms to the rest of campus, so there's a big jaywalking problem there. I actually got pulled over a few months ago because somebody crossed diagonally with a don't walk signal while my light was green. I rolled out into the intersection, but then my light then turned red and it switched to the all ped phase and I ended up sitting in the intersection after the light turned red with people diagonally crossing. I explained this to the officer and he wasn't surprised at all and let me off, but it's annoying.
There also is or was one in Boise at either 8th and Bannock or 8th and Jefferson
Hartford has always had them, except at one-way streets downtown. Also, I know that Toronto has them somewhere, but I know they are looking at expanding them with the 14 pedestrian deaths in the GTA.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 30, 2010, 09:14:59 AM
I believe such a thing exists in Pasadena, CA.
it may very well help Manhattan, but Manhattan seems to have figured out its own set of rules, in which turns are made well past the point where the light has changed to red - usually one enters the intersection on green and waits to turn while pedestrians are crossing the lane to be turned into, and then when the pedestrians clear (and the light is red), the turn is completed. That's pretty standard - however, it is customary for vehicles intending to make the turn who had not been able to enter the intersection on green to follow!
since there is room for more cars to queue up to turn left, Manhattan might very well be the only place in a right-hand-drive country where it is easier to make a left turn than a right turn!
in Manhattan, if you change over to an all-pedestrians phase, expect to see a lot of red lights being run!
Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).
According to this FHWA Highway History page (http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/infrastructure/barnes.cfm), the pedestrian scramble was first used in Kansas City and Vancouver. Engineer Henry Barnes was first to implement the phasing on a widespread basis, thus the phrase "Barnes Dance".
Ped scrambles can be used well in any place where pedestrian volumes are high. The caveat is that the intersection should not be too wide and the vehicular volumes not too high...otherwise, the pedestrian crossing phase causes a lot of delay for vehicular traffic. Scrambles also don't work well with coordinated signal corridors, unless there are multiple scramble locations.
There's a couple scrambles in the Reno/Sparks area. The two intersections of Victorian Avenue (old US 40) and Victorian Plaza Circle in Sparks have scramble phases. There's not a lot of through traffic here, cause it's in the Victorian Square area where there's lots of outdoor street festivals. Similarly, the intersection of Virginia Street (old US 395) and 2nd Street in downtown Reno has a scramble. This part of downtown can have heavy pedestrian traffic due to the casinos, and it's often closed off for street festivals as well. I believe Reno has plans for another scramble at Virginia and 4th Street (old US 40) once they reconstruct Virginia north of 4th.
Quote from: deanej on January 30, 2010, 02:25:05 PM
Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).
it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done. All cars move as far forward as they can, and there are often multiple cars queued up in the intersection waiting for a break in opposing or pedestrian traffic so they can complete their left turn. When such traffic comes to a stop, because of the light turning red, not only does the intersection clear, but the cars still stuck in the turn lane start up too - expect about 3 or 4 cars to run the red!
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 30, 2010, 04:44:17 PM
it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done.
It's illegal by the books, but not by New York City's unwritten rules of the road. ;-)
Similarly, the idea of a ped-only phase in Manhattan is preposterous. Walk/don't walk signals have no meaning. :-P
It's not really followed upstate either, but it should be. Sometime I think the only traffic law that's actually enforced is the speed limit (and then only when the state needs money).
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 30, 2010, 04:44:17 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 30, 2010, 02:25:05 PM
Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).
it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done. All cars move as far forward as they can, and there are often multiple cars queued up in the intersection waiting for a break in opposing or pedestrian traffic so they can complete their left turn. When such traffic comes to a stop, because of the light turning red, not only does the intersection clear, but the cars still stuck in the turn lane start up too - expect about 3 or 4 cars to run the red!
I've seen this done a lot in Georgia. I do it. If the car ahead of me enters the intersection, I enter the intersection as well. Then when cross traffic clears and/or the lights turn red, I and the other car(s) finish the turn.
I saw a pedestrian scramble in Savannah, Georgia along, I think, Bay Street.
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: yacoded on January 30, 2010, 02:09:10 PM
Also, I know that Toronto has them somewhere, but I know they are looking at expanding them with the 14 pedestrian deaths in the GTA.
Yeah Toronto has had a few of them installed in past couple of years. I sure there's more but the two I recall off the top of my head is at Yonge and Dundas and Yonge and Bloor which went up in mid 2009 I think.
Quote from: Bryant5493 on January 30, 2010, 08:32:35 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on January 30, 2010, 04:44:17 PM
Quote from: deanej on January 30, 2010, 02:25:05 PM
Unless NYC has passed its own law to override NY law, such turns are illegal for all but the first car (unless you are the first car in a left turn lane, it is illegal to enter the intersection unless you are the leading car even if the light is green (unless you have an arrow).
it may or may not be legal, but it is certainly very frequently done. All cars move as far forward as they can, and there are often multiple cars queued up in the intersection waiting for a break in opposing or pedestrian traffic so they can complete their left turn. When such traffic comes to a stop, because of the light turning red, not only does the intersection clear, but the cars still stuck in the turn lane start up too - expect about 3 or 4 cars to run the red!
I've seen this done a lot in Georgia. I do it. If the car ahead of me enters the intersection, I enter the intersection as well. Then when cross traffic clears and/or the lights turn red, I and the other car(s) finish the turn.
I saw a pedestrian scramble in Savannah, Georgia along, I think, Bay Street.
Be well,
Bryant
Chicago is notorious for this especially on Michigan Ave. If you're an outsider trying to drive it on the weekends - expect horn honkings because you didn't go.
Quote from: Master son on February 01, 2010, 02:11:06 PM
Chicago is notorious for this especially on Michigan Ave. If you're an outsider trying to drive it on the weekends - expect horn honkings because you didn't go.
Yeah, it peeves me off when folks don't go, because you're having idle for, maybe, five more minutes in traffic.
Be well,
Bryant
Seems to me Waikiki once upon a time had scrambles along Kalakaua Avenue. For all I know, the scrambles are still there.
Quote from: hm insulators on February 02, 2010, 10:52:07 AM
Seems to me Waikiki once upon a time had scrambles along Kalakaua Avenue. For all I know, the scrambles are still there.
The pavement markings are still there for them. And they are pretty fresh, too.
There's a couple of these in London, including a new one that the press billed as the first one (as they don't go to Balham, or St Albans, which have had theirs for years) at Oxford Circus.
They make sense at signalised crossroads which have a lot of pedestrian traffic with turning movements.
The "Barnes Dance" is still in use at various locations in the city of New York. It is typically used at a three-way signalized intersection, in which only one vehicular phase is in use. This is true for the main drag, which is, for the most part, a two-way street. The cross street is generally a one-way street.
Something similar to this type of movement is somewhat common to see as well. At a four-way signalized intersection, with regards to the cross street, before vehicular phase 2 begins, pedestrians receive a "WALK" indication first, and all four directions are red for only a handful of seconds (I'd say between 4 to 6 seconds). A leading "WALK" indication, really.
One signalized intersection that I know of that uses this particular movement is in Staten Island. The intersection is Hylan Blvd. and Tysens La. Hylan Blvd. is in the main drag, while Tysens La. is the cross street. Tysens La. uses the leading "WALK."
Quote from: andytom on January 30, 2010, 12:04:21 PM
Denver has these and has had them for at least 25 yrs.
--Andy
Not anymore! Two years ago Denver retimed the traffic signals downtown from 75 to 90 seconds in order to accommodate longer light rail trains. The increased timing cycle meant that the pedestrian scramble had to be removed.
There used to be one in Silver Spring, Montgomery County, Maryland at the intersection of U.S. 29 (Colesville Road) and Fenton Street (Google maps here (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=fenton+street+%26+colesville+road,+Silver+spring,+md+20910&hl=en&ll=38.997658,-77.027016&spn=0.001215,0.00169&sll=38.997539,-77.026978&sspn=0.001215,0.00169&t=h&hnear=Colesville+Rd+%26+Fenton+St,+Silver+Spring,+Montgomery,+Maryland+20910&z=19)), but it's been gone for many years, though there are still signs reminding (https://maps.google.com/maps?q=fenton+street+%26+colesville+road,+Silver+spring,+md+20910&hl=en&ll=38.997645,-77.027035&spn=0.001215,0.00169&sll=38.997539,-77.026978&sspn=0.001215,0.00169&t=h&hnear=Colesville+Rd+%26+Fenton+St,+Silver+Spring,+Montgomery,+Maryland+20910&z=19&layer=c&cbll=38.997717,-77.026985&panoid=Rr4IHQFPrgCj0Mz52KuGBQ&cbp=12,99.06,,2,3.57) pedestrians that diagonal crossings are not allowed.
Here is a pic of a Scramble in Wichita around 1960: http://www.wichitaphotos.org/graphics/wschm_D2SE-53.1.1.jpg
ICTRds
7th & H NW in DC (near the Verizon Center) has a "scramble" or "Barnes Dance" phase. They also allow standard crossing there outside of the all-pedestrian phase, so to keep traffic moving the city banned all turns. Lots of drivers ignore that restriction. (A normal Barnes Dance wouldn't allow the standard crossing, but DC decided that pedestrians would refuse to wait for the "scramble" phase. They're probably right. Many DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.)
To be fair, there's arguably more pedestrians at 7th and H NW than there are vehicles. In part because of that volume, I see no problem allowing them to cross during the regular green phase.
As to the turn restrictions, makes sense along 7th. Since there's 4 lanes along H, they could possibly allow right turns from H onto 7th, but given the above-mentioned heavy pedestrian traffic, you'd probably wind up with a long right-lane queue not unlike what exists up at 7th and Florida NW.
QuoteMany DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.
Funny you mention that. I get the same impression from DC drivers. Your citing that many drivers ignore the turning restriction being an excellent example.
Green and Wright streets, Champaign/Urbana IL (Wright is the dividing line between the two municipalities). The University of Illinois occupies the SE and NE quadrants of the intersection and there is heavy pedestrian traffic. The scramble mode traffic signals and markings were installed as part of a Green Street reconstruction that converted the 4-lane to a 3-lane with streetscape elements, sometime in the late 90's or early 00's..
Quote from: froggie on March 18, 2013, 08:16:02 AM
To be fair, there's arguably more pedestrians at 7th and H NW than there are vehicles. In part because of that volume, I see no problem allowing them to cross during the regular green phase.
As to the turn restrictions, makes sense along 7th. Since there's 4 lanes along H, they could possibly allow right turns from H onto 7th, but given the above-mentioned heavy pedestrian traffic, you'd probably wind up with a long right-lane queue not unlike what exists up at 7th and Florida NW.
QuoteMany DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.
Funny you mention that. I get the same impression from DC drivers. Your citing that many drivers ignore the turning restriction being an excellent example.
Yeah, there's no doubt there are a heck of a lot of very rude drivers in the DC area. I must say, I wonder about driver behavior at that particular intersection because it's a "visually busy" place (I'm not sure what the best phrase to describe that is, but there are a heck of a lot of visual distractions). What strikes me as a little bit unfortunate there is that the "No Turns" signs tend to blend into all the background mess. I don't have any pictures because I usually avoid driving through there and because when we walk to and from Caps games we use 8th Street (wider sidewalk and way less crowded). So here's a Street View looking south (at night, those TV monitors on the far left corner are a visual distraction). (http://goo.gl/maps/P7G1e) I don't doubt there are some drivers who fail to see or comprehend all the signs here and I think a light-up sign similar to the "No Left Turn" symbols used at 17th & Constitution might be more effective–but maybe not. That's not the easiest area of town to drive in anyway regardless of this sort of restriction.
The #1 "problem intersection" for pedestrian behavior in my experience is at 18th & L NW (Street View here (http://goo.gl/maps/YpMK0)) because of that sign allowing a right turn only on a green arrow (it's above that yellow pedestrian warning sign). Same thing applies going left from 18th onto L. Problem is, notwithstanding the "Don't Walk" sign the pedestrians flood out into the crosswalk during the green arrow and become quite vitriolic when a driver forces his way through. But if the driver doesn't do that, he's never going to be able to make the turn legally.
But I do not, and never will, understand pedestrians who stroll out illegally against the light and expect drivers just to stop. A few weeks ago on the way home from Verizon Center I had a green light crossing Pennsylvania Avenue on 10th Street. Some pedestrians strolled out to cross 10th against the light, so I blew the horn. They got out of the way and then one of them started giving the finger and yelling. I'm not sure what makes anyone think it's OK to behave that way. If you cross against the light, you have to move!!!
I noticed yesterday that Norman, OK, has apparently added pedestrian scramble phases to the signals on Boyd Street around OU, though only the phases have been updated and none of the signage is changed.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
Quote from: froggie on March 18, 2013, 08:16:02 AM
To be fair, there's arguably more pedestrians at 7th and H NW than there are vehicles. In part because of that volume, I see no problem allowing them to cross during the regular green phase.
As to the turn restrictions, makes sense along 7th. Since there's 4 lanes along H, they could possibly allow right turns from H onto 7th, but given the above-mentioned heavy pedestrian traffic, you'd probably wind up with a long right-lane queue not unlike what exists up at 7th and Florida NW.
QuoteMany DC pedestrians think they're entitled to walk whenever and wherever they like.
Funny you mention that. I get the same impression from DC drivers. Your citing that many drivers ignore the turning restriction being an excellent example.
Yeah, there's no doubt there are a heck of a lot of very rude drivers in the DC area. I must say, I wonder about driver behavior at that particular intersection because it's a "visually busy" place (I'm not sure what the best phrase to describe that is, but there are a heck of a lot of visual distractions). What strikes me as a little bit unfortunate there is that the "No Turns" signs tend to blend into all the background mess. I don't have any pictures because I usually avoid driving through there and because when we walk to and from Caps games we use 8th Street (wider sidewalk and way less crowded). So here's a Street View looking south (at night, those TV monitors on the far left corner are a visual distraction). (http://goo.gl/maps/P7G1e) I don't doubt there are some drivers who fail to see or comprehend all the signs here and I think a light-up sign similar to the "No Left Turn" symbols used at 17th & Constitution might be more effective–but maybe not. That's not the easiest area of town to drive in anyway regardless of this sort of restriction.
I am of the opinion that at least some D.C. drivers and D.C. pedestrians
want to be involved in a crash, so they call one of the (many) contingent-fee law firms that
incessantly advertise on television in the D.C. and Baltimore media markets with the implication that such a crash can be a path to a pot of gold, paid courtesy of the evil insurance companies.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
The #1 "problem intersection" for pedestrian behavior in my experience is at 18th & L NW (Street View here (http://goo.gl/maps/YpMK0)) because of that sign allowing a right turn only on a green arrow (it's above that yellow pedestrian warning sign). Same thing applies going left from 18th onto L. Problem is, notwithstanding the "Don't Walk" sign the pedestrians flood out into the crosswalk during the green arrow and become quite vitriolic when a driver forces his way through. But if the driver doesn't do that, he's never going to be able to make the turn legally.
Some of the intersections in Georgetown are similarly bad (though I don't go to Georgetown unless I have to for my job, as there is nothing in that part of D.C. that I have any need for or interest in, with the single exception of Blues Alley, though parking there is so bad that I don't bother).
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 18, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
But I do not, and never will, understand pedestrians who stroll out illegally against the light and expect drivers just to stop. A few weeks ago on the way home from Verizon Center I had a green light crossing Pennsylvania Avenue on 10th Street. Some pedestrians strolled out to cross 10th against the light, so I blew the horn. They got out of the way and then one of them started giving the finger and yelling. I'm not sure what makes anyone think it's OK to behave that way. If you cross against the light, you have to move!!!
I just accept it as a fact of life - more than a few radical environmental activists in D.C. accuse the private motor vehicle of being the root of all evil (including population decline) in their city (they are apparently not familiar with the (still) lousy public schools, "combined" sewers and their untreated outfalls, municipal corruption, a largely inept municipal police department and, of course, Councilmember-for-Life Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr.).
None of these folks want to admit that without all of the revenue collected from owners and operators of private motor vehicles in D.C.,
all transit in the city would quickly shut down for lack of funds.
I'll take exaggeration over denial any day.
I was thinking a pedestrian scramble might be something a restaurant could serve as a breakfast item.
I'll take mine with a sunny-side egg and some salsa on top, please. :coffee:
Chicago started an experiment with the scramble today in the Loop at State and Jackson: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story)
Other plans for Loop traffic are outlined in the story, including reducing the number of traffic lanes on some streets, adding bike and bus-only lanes, and reducing the number of spots where RTOR is allowed. Perhaps the idea is to reduce the number of accidents by making it less appealing for drivers to even try driving in the Loop. :-/
Quote from: theline on May 31, 2013, 03:50:11 PM
Chicago started an experiment with the scramble today in the Loop at State and Jackson: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story)
Other plans for Loop traffic are outlined in the story, including reducing the number of traffic lanes on some streets, adding bike and bus-only lanes, and reducing the number of spots where RTOR is allowed. Perhaps the idea is to reduce the number of accidents by making it less appealing for drivers to even try driving in the Loop. :-/
It's a good way to send businesses out to the suburbs. We'll welcome them here. :bigass:
Quote from: vdeane on January 30, 2010, 08:08:51 PM
It's not really followed upstate either, but it should be. Sometime I think the only traffic law that's actually enforced is the speed limit (and then only when the state needs money).
And this is precisely why speeding should be changed to a secondary enforcement item, i.e. you have to get pulled over for something worse, first.
This would force the traffic cops to actually enforce ALL traffic laws, not just the one that is the easiest and most profitable to enforce.
Quote from: theline on May 31, 2013, 03:50:11 PM
Chicago started an experiment with the scramble today in the Loop at State and Jackson: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-loop-intersection-to-test-pedestrian-scramble-20130530,0,1461894.story)
Other plans for Loop traffic are outlined in the story, including reducing the number of traffic lanes on some streets, adding bike and bus-only lanes, and reducing the number of spots where RTOR is allowed. Perhaps the idea is to reduce the number of accidents by making it less appealing for drivers to even try driving in the Loop. :-/
Having lived in Chicagoland for a number of years, I question why anyone even wants to drive in the Loop in the first place. With a high cost of parking and an excellent transit system, I learned very quickly that it wasn't worth driving.
Waking up this thread...
NJDOT is going to test an exclusive pedestrian phase (EPP) at an intersection in Princeton, NJ. The press release, linked below, is extremely well written, mentioning the pedestrian scramble including the diagonal crossing, and the downsides of the EPP.
https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2019/060319.shtm
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 05, 2019, 10:49:21 AM
Waking up this thread...
NJDOT is going to test an exclusive pedestrian phase (EPP) at an intersection in Princeton, NJ. The press release, linked below, is extremely well written, mentioning the pedestrian scramble including the diagonal crossing, and the downsides of the EPP.
https://www.state.nj.us/transportation/about/press/2019/060319.shtm
I give them credit for trying something new, but I'm not sure a trial will be effective in June. Most of the students will be away on summer break which will substantially decrease the number of pedestrians at this intersection.