Inspired by the post below:
Quote from: cl94 on July 19, 2018, 09:17:14 PM
Ithaca is one of the few MSAs in the lower 48 without 4-lane access to the rest of the country.
Which MSA's (let's say core cities of 10,000+ for simplicity) in your state still lack a four-lane connection to an interstate (and therefore the rest of the country)?
In each case, has anything been proposed?
Ithaca, NY (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4274073,-76.664395,10.21z) is a very glaring example, with a population of 31,695, and 105K in Tompkins County. I'm not sure if anything has been 'officially' proposed to connect the city to I-86 or I-81 (or I-90, lol) but I'm sure others will weigh in.
The largest I found in MD is Eldersburg which is a CDP of 30,531. It's not densely populated. It's just a large area. A planning study was done for MD 32 between I-70 and Eldersburg.
QuoteWhile the forecasted traffic analysis shows that a full corridor upgrade to a four-lane highway will not be needed until at least 2040, shorter term improvements should be designed to be compatible with the ultimate four-lane vision.
So it won't be widened soon.
http://apps.roads.maryland.gov/WebProjectLifeCycle/ProjectInformation.aspx?projectno=AW031116
Lake Havasu City, Cottonwood, and Show Low come to mind off the top of my head in Arizona for cities over 10k. Lake Havasu in particular is odd given it has about 53k people and is only a short jog south of I-40, if I remember right most of AZ 95 north to I-40 is 2 or 3 lane. AZ 89a north of Cottonwood is four lanes to Sedona but AZ 260 isn't to I-17. Show Low is too remote to warrant a four lane road all the way to any Interstate in all directions, but US 60 is still a major trucking corridor.
Pittsfield MA does not. There was a planned x90 to go up there that never happened and likely now never will.
Quote from: webny99 on July 20, 2018, 01:48:18 PM
Which MSA's (let's say core cities of 10,000+ for simplicity) in your state still lack a four-lane connection to an interstate (and therefore the rest of the country)?
The only one with a core city of 10k or more is Vidalia (city 10.4k, µSA 36k). Four-lane US 1 will get you from I-16 into Toombs County, but not quite to Vidalia itself. You'll have to suffer through about five miles of two-lane GA 130 (or only three miles of US 1 if you go via Lyons, but that would be longer).
Here's NE2's thread about it, with him getting mad at people who misinterpret the question: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14911
The only way into the WA cities of Port Angeles (19k), Walla Walla (31k), or Wenatchee (33k) is two-lane highway. Port Angeles is on the 101, Walla Walla is off US-12 (freeway in the city, two lanes outside) and WA-125, and Wenatchee via US-2, US-97, and WA-28 (all eventually two lanes outside the city).
Port Angeles is many hours from I-5, Wenatchee around 45 minutes from I-90, and Walla Walla less than an hour from I-82 or I-84.
EDIT: I see two of my three cities were mentioned in that thread.
Quote from: 1 on July 20, 2018, 04:36:52 PM
Here's NE2's thread about it, with him getting mad at people who misinterpret the question: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14911
Whoops.
Should have searched more extensively. But still, I think the topic has a lot of untapped potential. Especially if we include cities with 10K to 50K population, unlike the other thread.
^ In that scenario...
Minnesota:
Northfield (20,007)
Willmar (19,610)
Red Wing (16,459)
Buffalo (15,453)
Hutchinson (14,178)
Marshall (13,680)
New Ulm (13,522)
Waconia (10,697)
Grand Rapids (10,869)
Brainerd/Baxter did until 2003, when 4-laning of MN 371 south to Little Falls was completed.
Hastings did until 2013, when the new US 61 river bridge was completed (the old US 61 river bridge was 2 lanes, and MN 55 is still 2 lanes to the west).
Hugo did until ca. 2011, when construction at the I-35E interchange completed a 4-lane link via Washington CSAH 8/Anoka CSAH 14.
Willmar is expected to get a 4-lane link to I-94 via MN 23 in the next few years. The 2-lane gaps on MN 23 on both sides of Paynesville got bond funding this year.
----------------
We have two in Vermont: Rutland and Bennington.
Vernal, Utah has a population of about 11k, a micropolitan area of about 35k, and no four-lane connections. As much as I wish US 40 were four lanes between Heber City and Vernal, it's not, and AFAIK there are no plans to upgrade it. They are four-laning significant stretches of 40/191 in the Roosevelt area, but there are no plans for a 4-lane outside connection.
The city and immediate area of Lebanon, PA has no four-lane connection to the nearest expressways (I-78, I-81, and the Turnpike/I-76). The MSA, however, is actually the entire county, which includes the aforementioned expressways as well as four-lane US 22.
I'm unaware of any others in Pennsylvania.
Quote from: webny99 on July 20, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
Quote from: 1 on July 20, 2018, 04:36:52 PM
Here's NE2's thread about it, with him getting mad at people who misinterpret the question: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14911
Whoops.
Should have searched more extensively. But still, I think the topic has a lot of untapped potential. Especially if we include cities with 10K to 50K population, unlike the other thread.
I read that thread. What happened to kphoger? 224 posts in May and he dropped off the map.
Quote from: jon daly on July 20, 2018, 08:45:24 PM
What happened to kphoger? 224 posts in May and he dropped off the map.
He also disappeared from late January to late April. I guess some users just get caught up in life, and don't have any time for the forums. Obviously this site should be low priority for everyone except moderators and admins.
None I can think of in Delaware that have no access to some four lane highway. DE-1, I-95, US-13, and US-113 leave the state pretty well covered.
In Connecticut, I'm thinking of Willimantic/Windham (Willimantic has population 17,000 and Windham, the town where it is located, has population 25,000), which has no four lane highway access to an interstate (barring some sections of US-6 to the east of town, and I'm not counting the Willimantic Bypass, built originally as part of the planned I-84 to Providence since that is a very local section of 4-lane highway). I went to Eastern Connecticut State University, located in the town, so I am reasonably familiar with the area. Continuing off that, UConn is located in Storrs/Mansfield (population 26,000), which can only access an interstate via US-44, CT-195, or going through Willimantic (see below).
You can get to an interstate from Willimantic going any of these routes:
- US-6 West to I-384 West to Manchester/Hartford/Springfield
- CT-32 North to CT-31 North to I-84 West (my preferred way to Manchester)
- CT-32 North to I-84 East to Boston
- CT-32 South to CT-2 East to I-395 South to New London/New Haven
- CT-66 West to I-691 West to New Haven/Waterbury
- US-6 East to I-395 North to Worcester
- US-6 East to I-295 to Providence
As far as I can remember, the shortest route to an interstate is the first one, at 11-ish miles of 2 lane highway.
Quote from: jakeroot on July 20, 2018, 08:54:09 PM
Quote from: jon daly on July 20, 2018, 08:45:24 PM
What happened to kphoger? 224 posts in May and he dropped off the map.
He also disappeared from late January to late April. I guess some users just get caught up in life, and don't have any time for the forums. Obviously this site should be low priority for everyone except moderators and admins.
He's stated a couple times that he checks out for a couple months at a time. Dude is out and about quite a bit from what I've seen in his posts.
Quote from: jakeroot on July 20, 2018, 05:04:53 PM
The only way into the WA cities of Port Angeles (19k), Walla Walla (31k), or Wenatchee (33k) is two-lane highway. Port Angeles is on the 101, Walla Walla is off US-12 (freeway in the city, two lanes outside) and WA-125, and Wenatchee via US-2, US-97, and WA-28 (all eventually two lanes outside the city).
Port Angeles is many hours from I-5, Wenatchee around 45 minutes from I-90, and Walla Walla less than an hour from I-82 or I-84.
EDIT: I see two of my three cities were mentioned in that thread.
You are forgetting about Pullman (30k) and Lewiston/Clarkston (45k). Lewiston is connected by US 95 (4 laned for a while but bot forever), US 12 and WA 129 (both 2 laned). Pullman by US 195, WA 27, 194 (all 2 lanes) and 270 (4 lanes until it hits US 95 in Idaho).
LG-TP260
Quote from: jakeroot on July 20, 2018, 08:54:09 PM
Quote from: jon daly on July 20, 2018, 08:45:24 PM
What happened to kphoger? 224 posts in May and he dropped off the map.
He also disappeared from late January to late April. I guess some users just get caught up in life, and don't have any time for the forums. Obviously this site should be low priority for everyone except moderators and admins.
Yeah. I'm sure I'll disappear for a bit soon when work picks up. I remember seeing him in every thread I was in, it seemed. Before I disabled them, his avatar was one that stood out for me.
Oregon seems to have a bunch at least compared to normal.
Corvallis (OR 34 drops to 3 lanes crossing the Willamette) 55k, 75k with OSU students
McMinnville (bypasses aren't 4 lanes) 35k
Lebanon/Sweet Home (OR 34 drops to 2 lanes before Lebanon): although over 10,000 they aren't a principal city but I'm including it here anyways. 10k
Canby: same as Lebanon with metro status. 20k
Astoria: 10k (coast)
Newport 10k (coast)
Coos Bay: 15k (coast)
Kalamath Falls: 30k (bypass is only 2-4 lanes)
Prineville: 10k
Redmond: 30k (part of Bend metro)
And the big one:
Bend: 95k and for the entire metro: 170k (US 97 is 4 laned to 10 miles north and South). This has been a huge topic on fictional proposals as it is one of the largest cities in the lower 48 lacking a 4 lane connection to the interstate system. Considering it likely will hit 100k soon, it should be higher on ODOT priority list to connect it up just for commerce. Most people's fictional I-7/9 goes through Bend in some way. There used to be a study to put an interstate through here but it was turned down (Bend was 50k at the time). There is a project planned that will expand the southern 4 lane section by 6 miles due to start in 2019. Then only 170 more to go :bigass:
Edit: I also think Bend is the only TV market center without a 4 lane connection to a interstate. I could be wrong.
Other areas will stay 2 lanes for a long time. Corvallis refuses to replace the one lane Van Brahn (IDK how to spell it) but there once was a proposal to move it and build a new one but that fell through.
I'm also gonna tackle Montana:
Kalispell: 25k (US 93 is 4 lanes for part of the way to Missoula)
Havre: 10k
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on July 20, 2018, 09:34:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 20, 2018, 05:04:53 PM
The only way into the WA cities of Port Angeles (19k), Walla Walla (31k), or Wenatchee (33k) is two-lane highway. Port Angeles is on the 101, Walla Walla is off US-12 (freeway in the city, two lanes outside) and WA-125, and Wenatchee via US-2, US-97, and WA-28 (all eventually two lanes outside the city).
Port Angeles is many hours from I-5, Wenatchee around 45 minutes from I-90, and Walla Walla less than an hour from I-82 or I-84.
EDIT: I see two of my three cities were mentioned in that thread.
You are forgetting about Pullman (30k) and Lewiston/Clarkston (45k). Lewiston is connected by US 95 (4 laned for a while but bot forever), US 12 and WA 129 (both 2 laned). Pullman by US 195, WA 27, 194 (all 2 lanes) and 270 (4 lanes until it hits US 95 in Idaho).
Ahh, sure enough. I ignored Lewiston because I thought it was mostly in Idaho. Which it is, but I forgot how much of the populace extends into WA (even if it's a different city).
No excuse for forgetting Pullman. I only have like two dozen friends who go to uni there. :ded: Wonder if the population is with or without college students.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 20, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 20, 2018, 08:54:09 PM
Quote from: jon daly on July 20, 2018, 08:45:24 PM
What happened to kphoger? 224 posts in May and he dropped off the map.
He also disappeared from late January to late April. I guess some users just get caught up in life, and don't have any time for the forums. Obviously this site should be low priority for everyone except moderators and admins.
He's stated a couple times that he checks out for a couple months at a time. Dude is out and about quite a bit from what I've seen in his posts.
Sure seems to be. He has plenty to say about everything!
Examples in Illinois will be damn near impossible to find, what with all of our secondary Interstates. I thought Paris might be an example, but its population is 9,000-- not 10,000. I think Centralia and Washington both qualify.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 21, 2018, 09:57:22 AM
Examples in Illinois will be damn near impossible to find, what with all of our secondary Interstates. I thought Paris might be an example, but its population is 9,000-- not 10,000. I think Centralia and Washington both qualify.
Streator, population 13,700; Canton, population 14,700; and Kewaunee, population 12,900. Of these, only Canton is proposed to be connected via IL-336 to I-72 and I-74. There are no such plans for Streator or Kewaunee.
Washington is connected by four-lanes to the Peoria area and thus to I-74. Centralia is connected by a four-lane US-51 to I-64.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 20, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 20, 2018, 08:54:09 PM
Quote from: jon daly on July 20, 2018, 08:45:24 PM
What happened to kphoger? 224 posts in May and he dropped off the map.
He also disappeared from late January to late April. I guess some users just get caught up in life, and don't have any time for the forums. Obviously this site should be low priority for everyone except moderators and admins.
He's stated a couple times that he checks out for a couple months at a time. Dude is out and about quite a bit from what I've seen in his posts.
Yep, he'll be back. To be honest, the forum is probably more interesting when he's around! Despire the fact that he's around less than half of the time, he sure makes up for it when he's here.
Traverse City, MI (surprisingly not an MSA, but a micropolitan area despite its population of nearly 150,000 in the four counties that the area contains) has no four-lane connection to an interstate and also not enough demand for one unless population were to suddenly double.
Quote from: webny99 on July 21, 2018, 01:21:56 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 20, 2018, 09:29:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 20, 2018, 08:54:09 PM
Quote from: jon daly on July 20, 2018, 08:45:24 PM
What happened to kphoger? 224 posts in May and he dropped off the map.
He also disappeared from late January to late April. I guess some users just get caught up in life, and don't have any time for the forums. Obviously this site should be low priority for everyone except moderators and admins.
He's stated a couple times that he checks out for a couple months at a time. Dude is out and about quite a bit from what I've seen in his posts.
Yep, he'll be back. To be honest, the forum is probably more interesting when he's around! Despire the fact that he's around less than half of the time, he sure makes up for it when he's here.
I'm probably overdoing nettiquette, but once I am active in a thread, I feel the need to be available in case someone responds to my post and an answer or other follow-up is required by me.
My boss is back next week, So I think I won't search "Show unread posts since last visit." and focus, instead, on "Show new replies to your posts."
In Iowa, the 3 NW Iowa micropolitan areas of Storm Lake, Spencer and Spirit Lake don't have a 4 lane connection to an interstate. Clinton and Burlington do not have a direct connection to an interstate that's 4 lanes, some of which could be blamed on Illinois.
In Nebraska, I don't think Columbus or Norfolk do, but they may be in the process of getting one.
Quote from: ftballfan on July 21, 2018, 02:04:23 PM
Traverse City, MI (surprisingly not an MSA, but a micropolitan area despite its population of nearly 150,000 in the four counties that the area contains) has no four-lane connection to an interstate and also not enough demand for one unless population were to suddenly double.
Marquette is way off the grid for a 4-lane Interstate connection in the UP. I want to say the City was up to 22k the last I looked.
For California Coalinga comes to mind at 17k. Porterville is also on the list at 59k.
Some others that come to mind over 10k also would be; Mendota, Hollister, Kerman, Coarsegold, and Oakhurst.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 21, 2018, 07:57:10 PM
Quote from: ftballfan on July 21, 2018, 02:04:23 PM
Traverse City, MI (surprisingly not an MSA, but a micropolitan area despite its population of nearly 150,000 in the four counties that the area contains) has no four-lane connection to an interstate and also not enough demand for one unless population were to suddenly double.
Marquette is way off the grid for a 4-lane Interstate connection in the UP. I want to say the City was up to 22k the last I looked.
For California Coalinga comes to mind at 17k. Porterville is also on the list at 59k.
Some others that come to mind over 10k also would be; Mendota, Hollister, Kerman, Coarsegold, and Oakhurst.
Two in CA that I can think of off the top of my head are Eureka and Susanville; the former due to numerous 2-lane gaps to the south along US 101 and almost all 2-lane facility on CA 299. Susanville, while technically qualifying, population-wise as a MSA, only makes it because about 35% of its population are inmates incarcerated in the two prisons within the town limits. Still, it requires trips down the 2-lane US 395 and CA 36 to reach I-80 and I-5, respectively.
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Where's that at? 16 from Gorst to the 5 is all freeway.
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Where is WA 16 two-lanes? I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.
Not many in Ohio, and the ones I can think of are in the 10k-20k range: Tiffin, Fostoria and Mount Vernon
Quote from: ipeters61 on July 20, 2018, 09:18:27 PM
None I can think of in Delaware that have no access to some four lane highway. DE-1, I-95, US-13, and US-113 leave the state pretty well covered.
In Connecticut, I'm thinking of Willimantic/Windham (Willimantic has population 17,000 and Windham, the town where it is located, has population 25,000), which has no four lane highway access to an interstate (barring some sections of US-6 to the east of town, and I'm not counting the Willimantic Bypass, built originally as part of the planned I-84 to Providence since that is a very local section of 4-lane highway). I went to Eastern Connecticut State University, located in the town, so I am reasonably familiar with the area. Continuing off that, UConn is located in Storrs/Mansfield (population 26,000), which can only access an interstate via US-44, CT-195, or going through Willimantic (see below).
You can get to an interstate from Willimantic going any of these routes:
- US-6 West to I-384 West to Manchester/Hartford/Springfield
- CT-32 North to CT-31 North to I-84 West (my preferred way to Manchester)
- CT-32 North to I-84 East to Boston
- CT-32 South to CT-2 East to I-395 South to New London/New Haven
- CT-66 West to I-691 West to New Haven/Waterbury
- US-6 East to I-395 North to Worcester
- US-6 East to I-295 to Providence
As far as I can remember, the shortest route to an interstate is the first one, at 11-ish miles of 2 lane highway.
Came to this thread to say this. Living in Windham, I can say with certainty that the lack of highway access to the town has significantly hindered the economic growth of the area.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Where is WA 16 two-lanes? I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.
He may be thinking of this (https://goo.gl/maps/mrEordV5JBL2), where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.
Quote from: sharkyfour on July 22, 2018, 07:11:13 PM
Quote from: ipeters61 on July 20, 2018, 09:18:27 PM
None I can think of in Delaware that have no access to some four lane highway. DE-1, I-95, US-13, and US-113 leave the state pretty well covered.
In Connecticut, I'm thinking of Willimantic/Windham (Willimantic has population 17,000 and Windham, the town where it is located, has population 25,000), which has no four lane highway access to an interstate (barring some sections of US-6 to the east of town, and I'm not counting the Willimantic Bypass, built originally as part of the planned I-84 to Providence since that is a very local section of 4-lane highway). I went to Eastern Connecticut State University, located in the town, so I am reasonably familiar with the area. Continuing off that, UConn is located in Storrs/Mansfield (population 26,000), which can only access an interstate via US-44, CT-195, or going through Willimantic (see below).
You can get to an interstate from Willimantic going any of these routes:
- US-6 West to I-384 West to Manchester/Hartford/Springfield
- CT-32 North to CT-31 North to I-84 West (my preferred way to Manchester)
- CT-32 North to I-84 East to Boston
- CT-32 South to CT-2 East to I-395 South to New London/New Haven
- CT-66 West to I-691 West to New Haven/Waterbury
- US-6 East to I-395 North to Worcester
- US-6 East to I-295 to Providence
As far as I can remember, the shortest route to an interstate is the first one, at 11-ish miles of 2 lane highway.
Came to this thread to say this. Living in Windham, I can say with certainty that the lack of highway access to the town has significantly hindered the economic growth of the area.
I agree, especially since there are so many different ways to get between Hartford and Providence (http://www.kurumi.com/roads/ct/44ways.html), along with the general inconvenience of living in the area. On the one hand, it is refreshing to see the sprawl more or less stop east of Manchester/Vernon, but on the other, it's really sad that Willimantic is so distressed.
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Where is WA 16 two-lanes? I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.
He may be thinking of this (https://goo.gl/maps/mrEordV5JBL2), where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.
What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.
Quote from: NE2 on July 22, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Where is WA 16 two-lanes? I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.
He may be thinking of this (https://goo.gl/maps/mrEordV5JBL2), where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.
What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.
Doesn't matter anyway. That freeway has been widened to two through lanes a few months ago (that's the construction in Street View). Entrance from 304 is just a normal merge now. Never mind that it isn't fucking 16.
Agreed that merges shouldn't count. Ramps are hardly ever wider than two lanes; vast majority are one. The point is there's a freeway here. Shit, it's [basically] seven lanes through Gorst a mile from here.
Quote from: jakeroot on July 23, 2018, 01:45:31 AM
Quote from: NE2 on July 22, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Where is WA 16 two-lanes? I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.
He may be thinking of this (https://goo.gl/maps/mrEordV5JBL2), where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.
What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.
Doesn't matter anyway. That freeway has been widened to two through lanes a few months ago (that's the construction in Street View). Entrance from 304 is just a normal merge now. Never mind that it isn't fucking 16.
Agreed that merges shouldn't count. Ramps are hardly ever wider than two lanes; vast majority are one. The point is there's a freeway here. Shit, it's [basically] seven lanes through Gorst a mile from here.
If merges don't count, would the Corvallis van Buren bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5653442,-123.2559567,3a,75y,119.87h,86.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXFq0AH61Ubh7aZJS08TdSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) be considered a merge or since it is a state highway does it not count? That will judge the fate of Corvallis.
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on July 23, 2018, 02:00:33 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 23, 2018, 01:45:31 AM
Quote from: NE2 on July 22, 2018, 10:59:11 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on July 22, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 22, 2018, 08:24:39 AM
Quote from: kkt on July 22, 2018, 12:29:43 AM
10,000 is a pretty small city to be expecting a 4-lane highway to it.
Bremerton, WA has 40,000 people. WA 16 to it is mostly 4-lane but with 2-lane sections.
Where is WA 16 two-lanes? I don't recall any parts of it that weren't at least four.
He may be thinking of this (https://goo.gl/maps/mrEordV5JBL2), where 3 and 304 merge going out of town, and each of them are one lane here.
What horseshit. You can barely get from any surface road to an Interstate without a single-lane ramp.
Doesn't matter anyway. That freeway has been widened to two through lanes a few months ago (that's the construction in Street View). Entrance from 304 is just a normal merge now. Never mind that it isn't fucking 16.
Agreed that merges shouldn't count. Ramps are hardly ever wider than two lanes; vast majority are one. The point is there's a freeway here. Shit, it's [basically] seven lanes through Gorst a mile from here.
If merges don't count, would the Corvallis van Buren bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5653442,-123.2559567,3a,75y,119.87h,86.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXFq0AH61Ubh7aZJS08TdSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) be considered a merge or since it is a state highway does it not count? That will judge the fate of Corvallis.
Hmm, that's a tough one. I guess, since it's not part of a merge (just a narrow bridge), it would count for this thread (i.e. IMO, Corvallis does not have a four-lane connection to an interstate).
Bristol, CT (population 60,477) does not have such a four lane connection. The expressway portion of CT 72, once proposed to pass through Bristol, stops before the city line and downgrades to a boulevard. The only other ways to access are CT 229 from Southington and points south and west on I-84, US 6 from the Hartford area and from Litchfield County, and CT 69 from the Waterbury area,
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 23, 2018, 04:03:02 AM
Bristol, CT (population 60,477) does not have such a four lane connection. The expressway portion of CT 72, once proposed to pass through Bristol, stops before the city line and downgrades to a boulevard. The only other ways to access are CT 229 from Southington and points south and west on I-84, US 6 from the Hartford area and from Litchfield County, and CT 69 from the Waterbury area,
But the boulevard is still 4 lanes, correct? I think we're considering areas that lack any sort of four lane connection (not to use my own example, but like Willimantic, where all roads have large two lane segments on their way to an expressway).
Quote from: ipeters61 on July 23, 2018, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on July 23, 2018, 04:03:02 AM
Bristol, CT (population 60,477) does not have such a four lane connection. The expressway portion of CT 72, once proposed to pass through Bristol, stops before the city line and downgrades to a boulevard. The only other ways to access are CT 229 from Southington and points south and west on I-84, US 6 from the Hartford area and from Litchfield County, and CT 69 from the Waterbury area,
But the boulevard is still 4 lanes, correct? I think we're considering areas that lack any sort of four lane connection (not to use my own example, but like Willimantic, where all roads have large two lane segments on their way to an expressway).
This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.
Keene, NH qualifies.
A ramp is a lot different than a two-lane road, especially many miles of busy two-lane road with limited passing opportunities.
Geneseo, NY (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Geneseo,+NY+14454/@42.7876527,-77.8486601,12.37z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d1665aec9ab453:0xea6d6a674ef7fe7e!8m2!3d42.795896!4d-77.816947) just barely qualifies if we're using 10,000, having a population of 10,483 as of 2016. I've often wished US 20A was four lanes between Geneseo and I-390. Not strictly necessary, but it is several miles and nearly impossible to pass, due to oncoming traffic and grade changes.
There have been some comments that a city of 10,000 shouldn't expect a four-lane connection to an interstate. What should the minimum size be for a city to deserve a four-lane connection? Surely 20,000, if not 15,000.
Quote from: 1 on July 23, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.
Basically, yes. Suburbs can't really count.
We're talking about
having to pass through rural areas to get from the city to an interstate, and whether the corridor through said rural areas should be four-laned.
Quote from: webny99 on July 23, 2018, 09:36:29 AM
Quote from: 1 on July 23, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.
Basically, yes. Suburbs can't really count.
We're talking about having to pass through rural areas to get from the city to an interstate, and whether the corridor through said rural areas should be four-laned.
Another case that could be brought up, though it may not be appropriate for this thread, is the connection to points west of Dover, DE (population around 35k), like DC and Baltimore. You can either go up DE-1 to I-95 (the indirect route - 144 miles, 2.5 hours according to Google) or you could try taking the more direct route (DE-8/MD-454 West to MD-302 West, 28 miles, to eventually hit US-301, a four lane highway - 92 miles, 2 hours according to Google). However, in my experience, traffic moves very well through this area so an upgrade is not necessarily warranted. I have heard of a handful of people who actually do make the commute from DC to Dover.
Indiana-I'd like to nominate Jasper, Connersville, and Madison. I think all of the others have a four lane connector to some sort of interstate.
Anyone mention Key West and US 1 yet?
Quote from: webny99 on July 23, 2018, 09:36:29 AM
A ramp is a lot different than a two-lane road, especially many miles of busy two-lane road with limited passing opportunities.
Geneseo, NY (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Geneseo,+NY+14454/@42.7876527,-77.8486601,12.37z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89d1665aec9ab453:0xea6d6a674ef7fe7e!8m2!3d42.795896!4d-77.816947) just barely qualifies if we're using 10,000, having a population of 10,483 as of 2016. I've often wished US 20A was four lanes between Geneseo and I-390. Not strictly necessary, but it is several miles and nearly impossible to pass, due to oncoming traffic and grade changes.
There have been some comments that a city of 10,000 shouldn't expect a four-lane connection to an interstate. What should the minimum size be for a city to deserve a four-lane connection? Surely 20,000, if not 15,000.
Quote from: 1 on July 23, 2018, 08:51:38 AM
This thread is about metro areas, not suburbs lying between freeways or other 4-lane roads. I could see a case for cities or towns that are in the middle of nowhere and aren't part of a MSA, but not suburbs.
Basically, yes. Suburbs can't really count.
We're talking about having to pass through rural areas to get from the city to an interstate, and whether the corridor through said rural areas should be four-laned.
Since we're talking about metro areas rather than cities per se, maybe it would make sense to use metro area population? I believe the threshold at which a MPO is mandatory is 50k, so Ithaca (which has a MPO) would still count with that criteria.
I think Monroe is the only one in Wisconsin. (It's technically part of the Madison MSA, but you have to drive through about 30 miles of farmland to get there from Madison.) It's barely 10k and isn't growing, though, so it doesn't really need the four-lane connection.
Manchester Township, NJ (population 43395) is a marginal case. It is itself pretty rural. It has a few suburban-feeling areas but none that connect it to a 4-lane road.
Bridgeton Township, NJ (population 25692) has no 4-lane roads and has rural areas between itself and Milville and Vineland, the closest cities
Vernon Township, NJ (population 24847) is about as far as you can get from NYC or Philly and still be in NJ, and not "down the shore". No 4-lane roads
Hopatcong Township, NJ (population 14459) narrowly avoids I-80 and NJ 15 freeways, and the only 4-lane road leaving town (Lakeside Blvd) narrows to 2 lanes before getting anywhere interesting
Wantage Township, NJ (population 10934) is even more remote than Vernon above and has no 4-lane roads
Quote from: vdeane on July 23, 2018, 01:00:00 PM
Since we're talking about metro areas rather than cities per se, maybe it would make sense to use metro area population? I believe the threshold at which a MPO is mandatory is 50k, so Ithaca (which has a MPO) would still count with that criteria.
I'm in favor of using metro area population - say 50K or higher. Seems like that would remove some of the ambiguity, provided all outbound roads are still just two lanes.
Whidbey Island WA: Population 80,022 residents
Connection to the nearest interstate: Two lane deception pass bridge.
All other connections via ferry.
Lufkin/Nacogdoches, TX (I-69 coming soon)
Bryan/College Station, TX (I-14 maybe?)
Surprisingly Monterey, CA doesn't have a 4-lane connection to the Interstate system. CA 68, 1, and 156 all have two-lane segments that ultimately lead to major highways. If I recall correctly the Monterey Peninsula has something like 55,000 permanent residents.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 25, 2018, 12:05:45 AM
Surprisingly Monterey, CA doesn't have a 4-lane connection to the Interstate system. CA 68, 1, and 156 all have two-lane segments that ultimately lead to major highways. If I recall correctly the Monterey Peninsula has something like 55,000 permanent residents.
If the gas tax hike isn't rescinded (cross your fingers!), the 2-lane section of CA 156 between CA 1 and US 101 is slated to be upgraded to 2+2 (about damn time, IMO!), making the 156/101 composite route a 4-lane (min.) connection to San Jose and I-280/680.
Quote from: SteveG1988 on July 24, 2018, 08:07:33 PM
Whidbey Island WA: Population 80,022 residents
Connection to the nearest interstate: Two lane deception pass bridge.
All other connections via ferry.
I would never have guessed Whidbey Island to be an MSA.
Quote from: sparker on July 25, 2018, 01:03:55 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on July 25, 2018, 12:05:45 AM
Surprisingly Monterey, CA doesn't have a 4-lane connection to the Interstate system. CA 68, 1, and 156 all have two-lane segments that ultimately lead to major highways. If I recall correctly the Monterey Peninsula has something like 55,000 permanent residents.
If the gas tax hike isn't rescinded (cross your fingers!), the 2-lane section of CA 156 between CA 1 and US 101 is slated to be upgraded to 2+2 (about damn time, IMO!), making the 156/101 composite route a 4-lane (min.) connection to San Jose and I-280/680.
Personally I think all three routes are equally as bad with the two-lane segments. Any idea if Hollister is part of the upgrades coming up? I completely forgot 25 and 156 are two lanes out of there as well.
Quote from: jakeroot on July 25, 2018, 01:48:16 AM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on July 24, 2018, 08:07:33 PM
Whidbey Island WA: Population 80,022 residents
Connection to the nearest interstate: Two lane deception pass bridge.
All other connections via ferry.
I would never have guessed Whidbey Island to be an MSA.
It's not, Oak Harbor is the Micropolitan center that is officially listed, population 22k. Still counts towards this thread.
LG-TP260
Quote from: Hurricane Rex on July 25, 2018, 01:18:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 25, 2018, 01:48:16 AM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on July 24, 2018, 08:07:33 PM
Whidbey Island WA: Population 80,022 residents
Connection to the nearest interstate: Two lane deception pass bridge.
All other connections via ferry.
I would never have guessed Whidbey Island to be an MSA.
It's not, Oak Harbor is the Micropolitan center that is officially listed, population 22k. Still counts towards this thread.
The OP requested core cities of at least 10k people. So Oak Harbor would count, but not Whidbey as a whole.
Quote from: DandyDan on July 21, 2018, 07:18:00 PM
In Iowa, the 3 NW Iowa micropolitan areas of Storm Lake, Spencer and Spirit Lake don't have a 4 lane connection to an interstate. Clinton and Burlington do not have a direct connection to an interstate that's 4 lanes, some of which could be blamed on Illinois.
Carroll has around 10,000 people and is nowhere near a four-lane expressway -- just US 30 and US 71.
Clinton has a four-lane connection to I-80 via US 30 and US 61, while Burlington has one via US 34 and US 218.
Doesn't look like there are any such MSA's in Missouri.
As far as I can tell, the only city over 10K without a four-lane connection to an Interstate is Union (pop. 10,204 at the 2010 census) but it isn't an MSA. Even so it's only about five miles away from I-44, and that stretch of US-50 will probably be upgraded soon anyway.
The Pahrump, NV Micropolitan Statistical Area has a population of 42,000+. The MSA area is a pretty vast area that actually includes all of Nye County (the largest county in the state and third largest county in the contiguous US). Virtually none of the county/MSA area has four-lane highways (beyond the main streets/highways through towns), and there are no Interstates.
If you look at the actual town of Pahrump, its population is 36,000+, and it has been a growing bedroom community of Las Vegas for some time. There is currently not a four-lane connection from Pahrump to the Interstate system. However, NDOT has been gradually widening SR 160 from it's junction with I-15 in Las Vegas west towards Pahrump over the last decade or so. The four lane section of SR 160 currently ends about 2 miles east of the towns outer limit, which is about 8 miles from the town center.