AARoads Forum

National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 12:42:30 PM

Title: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 12:42:30 PM
I did several searches and, surprisingly, couldn't seem to turn up this topic.

What are some routes that meet at an intersection, but don't cross each other? Essentially, this happens when both routes make a turn at the intersection, so if you continue straight on any approach, you will switch to the other route. Yet the routes themselves, if you follow them, don't technically cross each other.

I remembered NY 77 and NY 63 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0861543,-78.3885122,14.44z) as being a good example, but, unfortunately, I forgot that they have a short multiplex. Are there any other examples of routes that "kiss" at an intersection, but don't cross?
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 12:44:41 PM
Do you mean like a "bump" –such as I-76 and I-80 near Akron, OH?
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 12:56:13 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 12:44:41 PM
Do you mean like a "bump" –such as I-76 and I-80 near Akron, OH?

Precisely, yes. If that was a standard interchange, and not a double-trumpet, the two roads wouldn't share any pavement.
And I don't know how I forgot that obvious example.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 01:16:00 PM
Just a guess, but I'd imagine that this is not unheard-of in the Midwest and Plains states where rural routes often follow the PLSS grid and a diagonal or curved route is often approximated by a stair-step alignment of 90° elbows. So if a north-to-east route encountered a south-to-west route at a four-way intersection, you'd get that kind of a bump.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: Brandon on August 03, 2018, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 12:56:13 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 12:44:41 PM
Do you mean like a "bump" –such as I-76 and I-80 near Akron, OH?

Precisely, yes. If that was a standard interchange, and not a double-trumpet, the two roads wouldn't share any pavement.
And I don't know how I forgot that obvious example.

Like I-80 and I-74 in Colona, Illinois?
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2018, 01:32:51 PM
I know we had this discussion once before because I included an example which the OP was unusual even for the topic at hand:  https://goo.gl/maps/3H7utQPzVrn .

NJ 47 (Delsea Drive) & CR 663 (Tanyard Rd):  You can see in the picture the roads curve away from each other, and a GSV view will show there's a fence there.  A historic aerials view shows that it appears around 1970 construction of a connector road between the two was going on, when they blocked the two roads from each other.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2018, 01:44:29 PM
CA 1 meets US 101 several times and even is concurrent in various places.  That being said CA 1 never actually crossed over US 101 and always remain south or west of it. 
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2018, 01:44:29 PM
CA 1 meets US 101 several times and even is concurrent in various places.  That being said CA 1 never actually crossed over US 101 and always remain south or west of it.

But in all of the examples I can think of–such as in Marin County where I lived–there's a 1/101 concurrency (e.g. from the Presidio to Marin City) and the two routes then diverge. The OP isn't looking for that. He wants examples where the two routes come together at a four-way intersection; one forms an L and the other forms a 7. The L and 7 touch at one point, but there is no concurrency, and they do not cross each other.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: jon daly on August 03, 2018, 02:06:51 PM
CT-140 and CT-286 "kiss" in the center of Ellington. Maple Street runs about 20 feet between the two.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: bzakharin on August 03, 2018, 02:16:31 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.116289,-74.0735539,17z
This is almost an example, but unfortunately NJ 34 and NJ 70 end here, and only NJ 35 does the 90-degree turn thing.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: SectorZ on August 03, 2018, 02:35:28 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.5007514,-70.4429814//@43.5009175,-70.447206,16z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!4m1!3e2

Though US 1 and ME 9 cross, join, and do all sorts of wacky things in Maine, they do bounce off each other in Saco, or close to it at least.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: TheStranger on August 03, 2018, 02:41:25 PM
Not many California examples.

Route 247 and Route 18 ALMOST do this, but miss by literally one block:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lucerne+Valley,+CA+92356/@34.4415891,-116.9418467,15.29z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c4bc8d712a7a7f:0x6f27afdb219ee64d!8m2!3d34.4437599!4d-116.9676823

If I-238 and State Route 238 are considered as one route, then I-580 has that sort of dynamic with it in Castro Valley (though whether that is still true with 238 surface street relinquishments in Hayward northward is up for debate)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Castro+Valley,+CA/@37.6872317,-122.1019357,15.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x808f91c4a805c833:0x9ecb2ef9fc6e9c27!8m2!3d37.6940973!4d-122.0863522

Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: Max Rockatansky on August 03, 2018, 02:56:53 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 03, 2018, 02:41:25 PM
Not many California examples.

Route 247 and Route 18 ALMOST do this, but miss by literally one block:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lucerne+Valley,+CA+92356/@34.4415891,-116.9418467,15.29z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c4bc8d712a7a7f:0x6f27afdb219ee64d!8m2!3d34.4437599!4d-116.9676823

If I-238 and State Route 238 are considered as one route, then I-580 has that sort of dynamic with it in Castro Valley (though whether that is still true with 238 surface street relinquishments in Hayward northward is up for debate)
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Castro+Valley,+CA/@37.6872317,-122.1019357,15.5z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x808f91c4a805c833:0x9ecb2ef9fc6e9c27!8m2!3d37.6940973!4d-122.0863522

I thought of the 18/247 but then I saw what you just described regarding them not touching:

https://flic.kr/p/SXYqpa

Now what interests me is that little tiny connector road maintained as part of Route 18 or 247 by Caltrans or is it local?  I'll dig on the postmile tool when I get home to see. 
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: US 89 on August 03, 2018, 04:31:52 PM
US 89 and SR 186 bump at State Street and 400 South (https://goo.gl/maps/XE7hJS7LJWw) in Salt Lake City, UT. Interestingly, before 2007 these routes actually crossed here, but they still bumped at North Temple and 300 West (https://goo.gl/maps/kjF7mBFxkT92).

SR 115 and SR 147 bump in Benjamin UT, at the intersection of 3200 West and 7300 South (https://goo.gl/maps/NGyTGyQQRop).

US 34 and US 36 bump in Estes Park CO, at the intersection of Wonderview Ave/Big Thompson Ave/Elkhorn Ave/St Vrain Ave (https://goo.gl/maps/j4TPdipwGDG2).
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: hbelkins on August 03, 2018, 05:21:33 PM
US 150 and US 136 in Danville, Ill.

US 45 and IL 1 in Norris City, Ill.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 05:38:29 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 03, 2018, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 12:56:13 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 12:44:41 PM
Do you mean like a "bump" –such as I-76 and I-80 near Akron, OH?
Precisely, yes. If that was a standard interchange, and not a double-trumpet, the two roads wouldn't share any pavement.
And I don't know how I forgot that obvious example.
Like I-80 and I-74 in Colona, Illinois?

If what is marked as I-280 on Google Maps is in fact a multiplex with I-74, then yes, that's a great (and again a fairly high profile) example.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: Super Mateo on August 03, 2018, 05:40:55 PM
US 6 bumps IL 7 in Orland Park, IL (stoplight).  Both routes meet again at a stoplight at IL 7's southern terminus.

US 45 bumps IL 83 in Mundelein, IL (stoplight).  Further south, those two routes cross at an interchange in Palos Hills.

Quote from: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 05:38:29 PM
If what is marked as I-280 on Google Maps is in fact a multiplex with I-74, then yes, that's a great (and again a fairly high profile) example.

It is both I-74 and I-280 concurrent going west from that interchange.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: hotdogPi on August 03, 2018, 05:50:04 PM
While not quite what the OP wanted (no access between the roads where I'm talking about), I-690 and NY 5 is an interesting example. They are grade-separated, but there is no access between them where they "meet", that is, if they do meet. Whether they meet or not depends on how large you define the intersection to be. If it's everything between the crosswalks, a 10 foot by 5 foot triangle (this is less than the area of a single car) of NY 5 is under I-690. However, since it's a left turn, no car staying on NY 5 would ever be directly under I-690.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: jp the roadgeek on August 03, 2018, 05:51:26 PM
I-91 and CT 15 in Meriden, CT   The northbound lanes of CT 15 cross over I-91 twice so that the route straddles I-91, but the southbound lanes of route 15 bump but never cross.

US 6 and CT 66 in Columbia, CT.  US 6 turns left onto the Willimantic bypass straight across from where CT 66 intersects from the west.  CT 66 then turns right onto the local road that US 6 once occupied.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: SCtoKC on August 03, 2018, 06:04:06 PM
MO 45 and MO 92 near Weston Bend State Park come very close together but never touch.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3667683,-94.8700813,16.83z
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: csw on August 03, 2018, 06:50:50 PM
The example being discussed in the Indiana thread, IN 2 and US 20 west of South Bend.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: Brandon on August 03, 2018, 06:56:20 PM
Quote from: csw on August 03, 2018, 06:50:50 PM
The example being discussed in the Indiana thread, IN 2 and US 20 west of South Bend.

Oh, that fucked up one.  Why in the name of anything and everything holy does InDOT make US-20 take the 2-lane POS called a road instead of the nice 4-lane divided highway!?!
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: GaryV on August 03, 2018, 08:35:14 PM
What about routes that join for a while, then split off again?  Like M-28 and M-94 in the UP SE of Munising.  The parts that are separate from each other are in the same relative orientation, not crossing.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 10:12:39 PM
It appears the OP isn't interested in any examples where routes overlap:

Quote from: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 12:42:30 PM
I remembered NY 77 and NY 63 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0861543,-78.3885122,14.44z) as being a good example, but, unfortunately, I forgot that they have a short multiplex.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: cwf1701 on August 03, 2018, 10:53:53 PM
I-96 and M-5. Eastbound i-96 doesn't cross M-5 while westbound i-96 does cross M-5 twice in the interchange complex.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: ilpt4u on August 03, 2018, 11:21:37 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 03, 2018, 01:21:45 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 03, 2018, 12:56:13 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on August 03, 2018, 12:44:41 PM
Do you mean like a "bump" –such as I-76 and I-80 near Akron, OH?

Precisely, yes. If that was a standard interchange, and not a double-trumpet, the two roads wouldn't share any pavement.
And I don't know how I forgot that obvious example.

Like I-80 and I-74 in Colona, Illinois?
There is the other, newer Interstate bump in IL...

Since the opening of the Stan Musial Bridge, I-70 and I-64 "bump"  in East St Louis. I-55 does go straight thru this Interchange

US 150/War Memorial Drive and I-74 @ Exit 89 in Peoria, IL is almost a bump - except the two roadways never quite touch. Their ROW does, I'm pretty sure. Basically, a modified Double Trumpet betweem the roadways. Of course, US 150 and I-74 cross multiple times in IL, as I-74 parallels the US 150 route thru IL
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on August 04, 2018, 11:18:54 PM
US 169 and MN 47 in Anoka, MN (trading off duplexes with US 10)

Although technically every route that terminates at another route counts  :bigass:
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: jaehak on August 05, 2018, 12:27:53 AM
Was just on it yesterday - I-4 and US 92in Daytona Beach intersect but don't touch, and don't really even "bump."  They do meet several times further west though.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: Rothman on August 05, 2018, 10:02:07 AM
Makes me wonder if NY 7 and NY 146 count for this (in Niskayuna, anyway).
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: mrcmc888 on August 05, 2018, 10:08:24 AM
There's only one example I can think of in my home state, and that's TN-96 bumping with a surface road in Murfreesboro.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: wanderer2575 on August 05, 2018, 11:10:17 AM
IL-83 amd US-45

(https://i.imgur.com/QPWBHyy.jpg)
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: mrcmc888 on August 05, 2018, 12:32:43 PM
And another one- GA-56 in Augusta, GA never crosses over US-78/25.  They briefly duplex but 56 leaves the same way it came
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: ilpt4u on August 05, 2018, 06:51:19 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 05, 2018, 11:10:17 AM
IL-83 and US-45

(https://i.imgur.com/QPWBHyy.jpg)
I almost replied wtf on this one, because they cross at their meetpoint in the South Suburbs

They do bump at their meetpoint in the North Suburbs, so I'll give this a pass

That said, this one was already mentioned on Page 1 of the thread...
Quote from: Super Mateo on August 03, 2018, 05:40:55 PM
US 45 bumps IL 83 in Mundelein, IL (stoplight).  Further south, those two routes cross at an interchange in Palos Hills.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: vdeane on August 05, 2018, 08:35:42 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 05, 2018, 10:02:07 AM
Makes me wonder if NY 7 and NY 146 count for this (in Niskayuna, anyway).
Alas, no.  Turns out they only meet once, at the roundabout in Rotterdam.  The connection in Niskayuna requires reference routes.
Title: Re: Routes that Meet But Don't Cross
Post by: freebrickproductions on August 06, 2018, 03:11:42 PM
US 431 and AL 53 in Huntsville, AL (though AL 53 isn't signed south of the intersection).