After sifting through available and reliable sources on Arizona SR 84 to update the Wikipedia article to a higher standard, Ive come across information which seems to conflict on whether SR 84A ever existed. Maps of Tucson between 1951 and 1956 by HM Goshua portray future I-10 as the "Tucson Limited Access Highway" as do 1950s newspaper articles from Tucson. A PDF document prepared by the Tucson Historic Preservation Foundation for preservation on Miracle Mile states the Tucson Limited Access Highway wasn't transferred to state ownership until 1958 and was rebuilt into I-10 in 1961. I sifted through ADOT resolutions and found no records on a highway called "84A". Further, all available maps at my disposal do not show 84A. The THPF document states future I-10 upon transfer to state ownership became "part of SR 84", yet ADOT resolutions and maps suggest SR 84 remained on its original route until 1965/66, which of course took it down West Miracle Mile to US 80/US 89, then had a concurrency with both routes to the intersection of 6th Avenue abd Benson Highway (now I-10) where it terminated. Can someone help me find out if SR 84A was ever a real highway? Reputable sources seem,to debate this.
VS988
I've pulled an article from the Arizona Republic (11/16/56), where the Arizona Highway Commission scheduled a hearing on where to locate a "superhighway" in the Tucson area.
It lists a few areas for improvements, SR 84A is listed twice.
It shows up on a 1961 map of Tucson: https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1961-5.jpg
It is also described on the long-dormant ArizonaRoads.com as having existed from 1953 to 1963, which was probably the first year that there was enough of I-10 built to begin to sign it.
Also, the Daily Star (8/17/57) has an article where local businesses were complaining to state highway engineers about SR 84 and SR 84A signage on the Casa Grande Highway on Tucson's north end, deeming it misleading and confusing.
It would indicate that even back then, 84A ran along the Tucson Freeway, which eventually became I-10.
Quote from: KeithE4Phx on September 06, 2018, 03:18:30 PM
It shows up on a 1961 map of Tucson: https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1961-5.jpg
It is also described on the long-dormant ArizonaRoads.com as having existed from 1953 to 1963, which was probably the first year that there was enough of I-10 built to begin to sign it.
Thanks for linking to that map! My, oh my, how the Valley of the Sun has grown in the past 57 years (Tucson too).
Thanks! I'm glad you guys did some digging. Good to know SR 84A did exist at one point. Now the question lies as to when it was formed. 1954 and 1955 articles from the Daily Star dont mention SR 84A. The 1956 HM Goshua Map of Arizona also has a Tucson inset which shows the road under its original name and suggests the highway was still city owned at the point of the map's production. By chance, are the links to said articles at Newspapers.com? If so, it'll be a little while before I have the funds to access the site abd use it as a reference on Wikipedia.
VS988
Quote from: 707 on September 06, 2018, 03:50:54 PM
Thanks! I'm glad you guys did some digging. Good to know SR 84A did exist at one point. Now the question lies as to when it was formed. 1954 and 1955 articles from the Daily Star dont mention SR 84A. The 1956 HM Goshua Map of Arizona also has a Tucson inset which shows the road under its original name and suggests the highway was still city owned at the point of the map's production. By chance, are the links to said articles at Newspapers.com? If so, it'll be a little while before I have the funds to access the site abd use it as a reference on Wikipedia.
VS988
I'll clip and upload to a hosting site as soon as I get a chance today.
Quote from: Zonie on September 06, 2018, 03:58:00 PM
Quote from: 707 on September 06, 2018, 03:50:54 PM
Thanks! I'm glad you guys did some digging. Good to know SR 84A did exist at one point. Now the question lies as to when it was formed. 1954 and 1955 articles from the Daily Star dont mention SR 84A. The 1956 HM Goshua Map of Arizona also has a Tucson inset which shows the road under its original name and suggests the highway was still city owned at the point of the map's production. By chance, are the links to said articles at Newspapers.com? If so, it'll be a little while before I have the funds to access the site abd use it as a reference on Wikipedia.
VS988
I'll clip and upload to a hosting site as soon as I get a chance today.
Much appreciated! Ill make sure to renew my Newspapers.com subscription too starting tomorrow. I wonder if the Tucson Historic Preservation Foundation got the date of state transfer wrong? It was a very informative document either way.
Here you are:
https://ibb.co/ngO3sz
https://ibb.co/cemdQK
https://ibb.co/f9dEze
https://ibb.co/k3c7Ke
https://ibb.co/dEROsz
Is this it? http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1937-P-447
Quote from: NE2 on September 06, 2018, 09:35:29 PM
Is this it? http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1937-P-447
It's not it but thanks for looking. I really appreciate your help in trying to clarify the history of SR 84A. Actually, that's a little known extension of SR 84 proper. Not a lot of people know that from 1937 to 1965 (or 1966 depending on which source you read), SR 84 multiplexed with US 80 and US 89 down Oracle, Drachman, Stone and 6th Avenue before terminating at the intersection of 6th and Benson Highway (now I-10). SR 84A was the designation that the state apparently gave to the Tucson Controlled Access Highway which later became I-10 (which Tucson seems to just call just "Freeway" now days), between Miracle Mile and 6th Avenue. I never understood the purpose of this multiplex, especially considering it ended where US 80 and US 89 split apart. It didn't help things any that SR 93 and SR 789 were added to the Miracle Mile "totem pole" in later years.
Fun fact, it was on the Tucson US 80/US 89/SR 84 multiplex in 1940 that locals noticed two German tourists giving a "seig heil" to an SR 84 marker, since the Arizona state highway signs had swastikas back then, meant to portray the Navajo peace symbol. After talking with the two Germans and taking a close look at the SR 84 marker, the Highway Department realized the swastika was not only the wrong design for the Navajo symbol, but matched the Nazi swastika very closely. Out of embarrassment, the Highway Department ordered all the swastika signs to be replaced immediately following the SR 84 incident. Here's a link to a 1940 issue of Life magazine detailing the story: https://books.google.com/books?id=uj8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA118&lpg=PA118&dq=Arizona+Tucson+Highway+swastika&source=bl&ots=21hbcbPyET&sig=WbdGTWWruV5GBOVUGxwjaVgKLHY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRj_izvKLdAhVKjlQKHdLLCMEQ6AEwB3oECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=Arizona%20Tucson%20Highway%20swastika&f=false
"The uncontroverted facts are as follows: The Arizona Highway Commission adopted a resolution on November 5, 1948, establishing a state highway known as the Tucson Control[sic] Access Highway which we will refer to as the Freeway."
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBM7AQAAIAAJ&q=%22Tucson+Control+Access+Highway%22
Here's the resolution: http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1948-P-065
The description seems a bit off...Section 27 is to the southwest.
Quote from: NE2 on September 07, 2018, 02:08:09 PM
"The uncontroverted facts are as follows: The Arizona Highway Commission adopted a resolution on November 5, 1948, establishing a state highway known as the Tucson Control[sic] Access Highway which we will refer to as the Freeway."
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBM7AQAAIAAJ&q=%22Tucson+Control+Access+Highway%22
Here's the resolution: http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1948-P-065
The description seems a bit off...Section 27 is to the southwest.
Thanks for digging up the info! I'll make sure to modify all information on the Tucson Freeway I typed up on Wikipedia to reflect it.
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:
(1) Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2) The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson. Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?
Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!
Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:
(1) Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2) The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson. Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?
Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!
It probably was a co-sign, Arizona traditionally hasn't been stingy with signing long US Route/State Highway multiplexes like US 60/AZ 77.
Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:
(1) Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2) The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson. Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?
Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!
There's a reference to AZ 86/Ajo Way on this sign:
https://arizonaroads.com/wrong/wrong1.html
Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:
(1) Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2) The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson. Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?
Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!
From what I gather, AZ 86 was unsigned between US 89 in Tucson and US 80 in Benson at first. Maps dating back to 1958 only show US 80 between the two towns. By 1961 however, maps show SR 86 on the route. The signage in the color shields photo and putting myself in the shoes of a highway department that doesn't want to have to go through the super red taped process of adding Ajo Way between Benson and 6th to the highway system leads me to believe one thing: SR 86 travelled north along US 89/SR 93 to the junction with US 80/SR 84 at Benson/6th, then took US 80 east to Benson.
Given SR 86 once had two inconsecutive segments with the route's western segment ending at 6th Avenue (US 89) until about 1960, it wouldnt make much sense for ADOT to go through all the trouble and extra cost to add the rest of Ajo to Benson if the distance between Ajo and Benson on 6th is just a few blocks. I used to volunteer at the VA Hospital there and walked the distance between the old Benson Highway junction and Ajo. Its not that far.
VS988
^^^^^^^
Fair enough; Caltrans and its predecessor agency often had circuitous state highway routings when more efficient egress was available just so they didn't have to go through the process of exchanging mounds of technical information with counties and/or cities regarding alternate alignments. They probably reasoned that if drivers were inclined to follow the signed route regardless of twists & turns they'd continue to do so, and other drivers -- presumably with maps in those days -- would simply read the map and use the more direct routings.
Quote from: sparker on September 08, 2018, 02:32:53 PM
^^^^^^^
Fair enough; Caltrans and its predecessor agency often had circuitous state highway routings when more efficient egress was available just so they didn't have to go through the process of exchanging mounds of technical information with counties and/or cities regarding alternate alignments. They probably reasoned that if drivers were inclined to follow the signed route regardless of twists & turns they'd continue to do so, and other drivers -- presumably with maps in those days -- would simply read the map and use the more direct routings.
I'm glad I could help. Of course it would be easier if the old AHD logs or county maps were readily available. Ill try and sift through the ADOT resolutions and see if I cant find a definitive answer. The ADOT resolutions are how I was able to confirm the odd SR 84 extension to Benson Highway.
VS988
Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:
(1) Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2) The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson. Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?
Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!
A 1963 Topographical Map of Tucson shows AZ 86 signed on Ajo Way between US 89/AZ 93/AZ 789 and US 80.
Here is a linked over image Zonie was referring to from Arizonaroads.com earlier:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/wrong/colorus.jpg)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 08, 2018, 11:23:22 PM
Quote from: sparker on September 07, 2018, 10:22:35 PM
Looking at the Tucson insert map, two things concerning AZ 86 are a bit vexing:
(1) Was the short section of Ajo Way between US 89 and US 80 ever a part of the state highway system and possibly signed as AZ 86?, and --
(2) The map shows AZ 86 multiplexed with US 80 east of Tucson. Was there ever erected signage to that effect, or was it simply a silent multiplex?
Perhaps AZ posters with some documentation can clear this up!
A 1963 Topographical Map of Tucson shows AZ 86 signed on Ajo Way between US 89/AZ 93/AZ 789 and US 80.
Here is a linked over image Zonie was referring to from Arizonaroads.com earlier:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/wrong/colorus.jpg)
Interesting. Though Ive heard from Dale Sanderson, USGS maps are sometimes notorious for incorrectly referencing highways. At this point, the only way to know would be ADOT resolutions, highway logs or official county maps.
I found a probable resolution to help answer the question:
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1958-P-021
It says "ESTAB & WIDEN EXISTING R/W FROM 6TH AVE EAST 1 MILE TO SANTA CRUZ RIVER". Which makes no sense considering the river is WEST of 6th Avenue. Perhaps they meant Benson Highway? If so, this could be the resolution that confirms Max's discovery, or just a resolution saying they widened the road west of 6th Avenue to the River. Perhaps they mean the resolution takes effect east one mile of 6th Avenue and continues until hitting the river? I measured the distance from 6th Avenue to Benson Highway. It's 0.92 miles. Rounded, that's one mile which could mean the "ESTABLISH" tag on "ESTABLISH AND WIDEN" refers to Ajo Way. If that's true, then for about one mile east of 6th there's a slight chance Ajo was made part of the state highway system in 1958 and SR 86 extended east to meet US 80.
But looking closer a the 1961 date inset map of Tucson from the official state highway map, seems to show differently. If you look closely, the thickness of the line on Ajo Way between Benson Highway and 6th Avenue is the same thickness given to the local streets and roads, whereas the thickness given to the section we know was SR 86 is more pronounced, like it would be on a secondary state highway portrayed on these maps.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/meyo86qfv/SR_86_Detail.png)
In case someone else can better interpret resolutions, here's all the resolutions for SR 86 between the mid fifties to the mid sixties, about the time frame it would have been extended if at all:
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&submit1=Submit&eyear=&crc=&rtnum=86&page=3
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it. A lot of times I've found that cities in particular can't be completely solved in terms of routing without the aid of photographs. Maps tend to obscure city routes even from the best sources and really all you have is to hope that photos of the field signage exist.
To that end over on Pacific Southwest we had a recent confirmation of US 399 to US 466 in Bakersfield. The US 6 terminus on US 101A remains an open discussion and on occasion the routing of US 101 in San Francisco before the Golden Gate Bridge. What I've found with Arizona more often than not is that if an alignment seemed plausible and practical than it likely was part of a US Route or State Highway.
Regarding my statement earlier being signed on US 80 east to Benson I definitely stand by that statement. ADOT isn't stingy even now multiplexing routes in the field but was even less so back in the heyday of the US Route system. That topographical map showed a multiplex of AZ 93 and AZ 789 on US 89 south of Tucson. I'm not certain how well AZ 789 even really got signed but I do know that ADOT was pushing AZ 93 pretty hard because they wanted US 93 all the way to the border. Imagine being the Phoenix Area at the time crossing the Salt River on Mill Avenue and being greeted by reassurance shields for; US 60, US 70, US 80, US 89, and AZ 93. To that end US 80 and AZ 86 being multiplexed seems down right reasonable by comparison.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it. A lot of times I've found that cities in particular can't be completely solved in terms of routing without the aid of photographs. Maps tend to obscure city routes even from the best sources and really all you have is to hope that photos of the field signage exist.
To that end over on Pacific Southwest we had a recent confirmation of US 399 to US 466 in Bakersfield. The US 6 terminus on US 101A remains an open discussion and on occasion the routing of US 101 in San Francisco before the Golden Gate Bridge. What I've found with Arizona more often than not is that if an alignment seemed plausible and practical than it likely was part of a US Route or State Highway.
Regarding my statement earlier being signed on US 80 east to Benson I definitely stand by that statement. ADOT isn't stingy even now multiplexing routes in the field but was even less so back in the heyday of the US Route system. That topographical map showed a multiplex of AZ 93 and AZ 789 on US 89 south of Tucson. I'm not certain how well AZ 789 even really got signed but I do know that ADOT was pushing AZ 93 pretty hard because they wanted US 93 all the way to the border. Imagine being the Phoenix Area at the time crossing the Salt River on Mill Avenue and being greeted by reassurance shields for; US 60, US 70, US 80, US 89, and AZ 93. To that end US 80 and AZ 86 being multiplexed seems down right reasonable by comparison.
I'm not disagreeing at all that SR 86 was at some point cosigned with US 80. Given it shows up on at least one official state highway map, I believe it really happened. All I'm saying is I don't believe the concurrency was signed until sometime between 1958 and 1960. The concurrency doesn't show up on any maps I've seen until the official State Map published in 1961 and the ADOT resolution suggesting Ajo east of 6th was added to SR 86 is dated 1958. Also, I recently checked my official 1953-54 AHD State Map and SR 86 was shown being in two in-consecutive sections as Benson Highway in the Tucson Inset and US 80 eastward to Benson didn't have an SR 86 marker joining them.
As for SR 86 being on Ajo Way between 6th and Benson, the resolution I pulled up along with the 1963 topo points very strongly in that favor. Maybe the 1961 map portraying Ajo between 6th and Benson as local is just an error on the map maker's behalf? The topo map does correctly show the US 80/US 89/SR 84 multiplex, which is accurate.
VS988
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.
There is no photographic proof; the sign is at Benson and 6th pointing south on 6th.
Quote from: NE2 on September 09, 2018, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.
There is no photographic proof; the sign is at Benson and 6th pointing south on 6th.
Let me rephrase then, it's implied that AZ 86 is southward given the sign just says "Ajo Way." The inference is that 86 is present on Ajo Way and not a particular direction of travel such as an western segment. Given that there is no AZ 86 shield at the junction of 6th and Benson it also seems to suggest that it is present to the south.
Granted that doesn't resolve if there was a gap in 86 at one point or if the route was co-signed to Benson with US 80. The photo also doesn't have a date and the only description Arizonaroads gave was about colorized shields starting in the 1950s.
Speaking of signage mysteries (saw the thread retitle) what about AZ 789? I honestly don't think I've ever a single photo of AZ 789 Signed in the field. Does anyone have any old photographs of 789 on sign assembles?...I'd love to see them if they are out there.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: NE2 on September 09, 2018, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.
There is no photographic proof; the sign is at Benson and 6th pointing south on 6th.
Let me rephrase then, it's implied that AZ 86 is southward given the sign just says "Ajo Way." The inference is that 86 is present on Ajo Way and not a particular direction of travel such as an western segment. Given that there is no AZ 86 shield at the junction of 6th and Benson it also seems to suggest that it is present to the south.
Granted that doesn't resolve if there was a gap in 86 at one point or if the route was co-signed to Benson with US 80. The photo also doesn't have a date and the only description Arizonaroads gave was about colorized shields starting in the 1950s.
Speaking of signage mysteries (saw the thread retitle) what about AZ 789? I honestly don't think I've ever a single photo of AZ 789 Signed in the field. Does anyone have any old photographs of 789 on sign assembles?...I'd love to see them if they are out there.
I believe that sign is meant to be a "To SR 86" sign. If the highway really was divided into two segments, then that sign wpuld still look the same. It would also explain the lack of a 2nd generation "swastika" SR shield saying West 86 goes left at that intersection. To me the sign implies SR 86 hasn't been signed along US 80 yet and the sign is directing people to use US 89 to reach the eastern terminus of SR 86(W). If SR 86 took Ajo Way at this point, then there wouldn't be signage directing cars down US 89 to reach 86. Instead, the sign would be at Benson and Ajo telling traffic to turn there. So far, besides the vague resolution and the 1963 Topo, I have been seeing more evidence in the forms of state highway maps and that photo implying SR 86 went north on 6th then east on Benson.
As for SR 789, I do believe it was signed. There is a photo of a 2nd Gen Swastika shield of SR 789 in someone's private collection with the same amount of wear and tear you would find on a sign that has been used in the field. Its not much, but its the best I can go off of.
VS988
Quote from: 707 on September 09, 2018, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: NE2 on September 09, 2018, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.
There is no photographic proof; the sign is at Benson and 6th pointing south on 6th.
Let me rephrase then, it's implied that AZ 86 is southward given the sign just says "Ajo Way." The inference is that 86 is present on Ajo Way and not a particular direction of travel such as an western segment. Given that there is no AZ 86 shield at the junction of 6th and Benson it also seems to suggest that it is present to the south.
Granted that doesn't resolve if there was a gap in 86 at one point or if the route was co-signed to Benson with US 80. The photo also doesn't have a date and the only description Arizonaroads gave was about colorized shields starting in the 1950s.
Speaking of signage mysteries (saw the thread retitle) what about AZ 789? I honestly don't think I've ever a single photo of AZ 789 Signed in the field. Does anyone have any old photographs of 789 on sign assembles?...I'd love to see them if they are out there.
I believe that sign is meant to be a "To SR 86" sign. If the highway really was divided into two segments, then that sign wpuld still look the same. It would also explain the lack of a 2nd generation "swastika" SR shield saying West 86 goes left at that intersection. To me the sign implies SR 86 hasn't been signed along US 80 yet and the sign is directing people to use US 89 to reach the eastern terminus of SR 86(W). If SR 86 took Ajo Way at this point, then there wouldn't be signage directing cars down US 89 to reach 86. Instead, the sign would be at Benson and Ajo telling traffic to turn there. So far, besides the vague resolution and the 1963 Topo, I have been seeing more evidence in the forms of state highway maps and that photo implying SR 86 went north on 6th then east on Benson.
As for SR 789, I do believe it was signed. There is a photo of a 2nd Gen Swastika shield of SR 789 in someone's private collection with the same amount of wear and tear you would find on a sign that has been used in the field. Its not much, but its the best I can go off of.
VS988
I'm pretty sure the AZ 789 shield commonly floating around online is the one also posted on Arizonaroads.com:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/pics/az789.jpg)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 11:40:22 PM
Quote from: 707 on September 09, 2018, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 01:19:26 PM
Quote from: NE2 on September 09, 2018, 12:44:26 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 09, 2018, 10:25:01 AM
While I'm in agreement that topographical maps aren't exact the best source I'd say that the evidence is pretty strong that AZ 86 was on Ajo Way between US 80 and US 89 given there is photographic proof on top of it.
There is no photographic proof; the sign is at Benson and 6th pointing south on 6th.
Let me rephrase then, it's implied that AZ 86 is southward given the sign just says "Ajo Way." The inference is that 86 is present on Ajo Way and not a particular direction of travel such as an western segment. Given that there is no AZ 86 shield at the junction of 6th and Benson it also seems to suggest that it is present to the south.
Granted that doesn't resolve if there was a gap in 86 at one point or if the route was co-signed to Benson with US 80. The photo also doesn't have a date and the only description Arizonaroads gave was about colorized shields starting in the 1950s.
Speaking of signage mysteries (saw the thread retitle) what about AZ 789? I honestly don't think I've ever a single photo of AZ 789 Signed in the field. Does anyone have any old photographs of 789 on sign assembles?...I'd love to see them if they are out there.
I believe that sign is meant to be a "To SR 86" sign. If the highway really was divided into two segments, then that sign wpuld still look the same. It would also explain the lack of a 2nd generation "swastika" SR shield saying West 86 goes left at that intersection. To me the sign implies SR 86 hasn't been signed along US 80 yet and the sign is directing people to use US 89 to reach the eastern terminus of SR 86(W). If SR 86 took Ajo Way at this point, then there wouldn't be signage directing cars down US 89 to reach 86. Instead, the sign would be at Benson and Ajo telling traffic to turn there. So far, besides the vague resolution and the 1963 Topo, I have been seeing more evidence in the forms of state highway maps and that photo implying SR 86 went north on 6th then east on Benson.
As for SR 789, I do believe it was signed. There is a photo of a 2nd Gen Swastika shield of SR 789 in someone's private collection with the same amount of wear and tear you would find on a sign that has been used in the field. Its not much, but its the best I can go off of.
VS988
I'm pretty sure the AZ 789 shield commonly floating around online is the one also posted on Arizonaroads.com:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/pics/az789.jpg)
Yup, that's the one. One of the few photos I've ever seen of a 2nd Gen Swastika. Just look at how beaten up that sign is. If it was never used, it would be in great shape like the Alaska US 97 signs the state produced but never put up. Probably would have sat in a warehouse gathering dust not rust. I have a very strong suspicion that this sign was indeed used in the field.
Browsing David Rumsey's Map Collection, I found two highway maps of Tucson from 1950 and 1956 published by Rand McNally and HM Goshua:
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~293040~90065324:Map-of-greater-Tucson-and-surroundi?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:Tucson;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=1&trs=8
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~212277~5500329:Shell-Street-Map-of-Tucson--Shell-M?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:Tucson;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=5&trs=8
Both maps tell an interesting story. At least by 1951, SR 84 ended at the southern Oracle Road traffic circle with Drachman Street. An even stranger terminus than the US 80/US 89 junction at Benson and 6th. Also, both maps show SR 86 ending at Ajo and 6th (US 89).
Interestingly, I came across an article today (Daily Star, 9/27/55) where the US 90 Association was trying to extend US 90 from Van Horn, TX to San Diego using AZ 84 and 86.
The last paragraph mentioned how it'd be a shorter, more direct route from Tucson to San Antonio/Houston/New Orleans/Jacksonville. :-)
This 1938 Arizona State Highway Map seems to suggest that the original routing of 86 only ran between the State Line and US 80 in Benson:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1938-4.jpg)
Quote from: Zonie on September 10, 2018, 07:51:53 PM
Interestingly, I came across an article today (Daily Star, 9/27/55) where the US 90 Association was trying to extend US 90 from Van Horn, TX to San Diego using AZ 84 and 86.
The last paragraph mentioned how it'd be a shorter, more direct route from Tucson to San Antonio/Houston/New Orleans/Jacksonville. :-)
Ha! That would've created another crazy US 60/70 problem. Thanls for the input!
VS988
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 10, 2018, 11:39:58 PM
This 1938 Arizona State Highway Map seems to suggest that the original routing of 86 only ran between the State Line and US 80 in Benson:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1938-4.jpg)
That's true. The Ajo to Tucson segment through the Papago Reservation and Sells didn't happen until 1942. Before the, the road was owned and administered by Pima County. I can pull up the resolutions if you'd like. Also, if ypu pook closely, the pre 1940 route of SR 86 and US 666 follows Dragoon Road and an abandoned ROW on the north side of the SPRR across the Playa in to Wilcox. In fact, most of the pre 1940 route is separate from I-10, but either abandoned, cut up or passable by AWD or 4WD only. Sadly, the most beautiful section which was through Texas Canyon itself is now on Private Property and is illegal to use.
On the subject, when SR 86 was first designated in 1934 it was completely concurrent with SR 81 (US 666 after 1937) between Cochise and east of Wilcox. In 1936 and 1937, it was extended west to US 80 in Benson, then east to NM 14 near San Simon. It was retired on the eastern section around 1970. If you travel the I-10 Business routes, you'll find a lot of cool old motels abd cafes that have long been forgotten. SR 86/NM 14 was not too different from Miracle Mile at one point.
VS988
Here's another I-10 mystery: I believe there are ADOT resolutions and a state highway log I once accessed saying Kolb Road in Tucson was either added to the State Highway system albeit unsigned or was planned to be added and cancelled at the last minute. I'll pull up the resolutions, which I know ADOT passed in regards to planned SR 910. If they actually took over Kolb Road though remains a mystery until further notice, but I'm guessing it was unlikely and SR 910 was never designated.
VS988
It was at one point part of the Tucson urban plans as AZ 110, but as far as I know, never came to fruition.
https://arizonaroads.com/pics/urban1997tucson.gif
The southern "detour" of US 80 vs. the relatively "straightline" of AZ 86 would be in itself questionable if not for the history of the local rail lines. The Southern Pacific was the first to penetrate this territory circa 1879-80; their line functionally followed today's I-10 from Casa Grande east to the NM state line, but with heavy WB gradients over Steins Pass on the AZ/NM border and a very circuitous EB alignment between Benson and Willcox, necessary to maintain a less than 2.2% grade. Several years later the El Paso and Southwestern, owned by the Phelps-Dodge mining company, made its way west from El Paso through Columbus, NM, following US 80 through Douglas, AZ before hugging the Mexican border again to the San Pedro River valley, which it followed north to Benson. From there it paralleled the SP tracks into Tucson, which became its interim western terminus; it was slated to head west via Ajo before turning south into Mexico to access a new planned Gulf of California port south of Puerto Penasco. The more favorable gradients of the El Paso and Southwestern tracks allowed it to dominate the coal and ore traffic west from El Paso, mostly originating it its northern New Mexico lines, reached by its "El Paso & Northeastern" branch from El Paso up to Tucumcari and turning north from there to the Raton area where the coal and ore mines were located. However, it never made it past Tucson; by 1924 the expenses of running a full-service railroad caused Phelps-Dodge to offload the railroad onto Southern Pacific, which promptly moved most of its heavy freight and passenger traffic onto the former EP&SW. That figured prominently in the elevation of Douglas and Bisbee as the principal population centers of SE AZ. When it came time to deploy the U.S. highways, the southward arc through Douglas was selected for US 80 in order to serve the largest population. That corridor received asphalt pavement well before AZ 86, which prompted through traffic to use it rather than the gravel AZ 86 -- at least until the latter was finally full paved by 1941. At that time through commercial traffic between Tucson and El Paso largely shifted to the AZ 86/NM 14 combination. Eventually, after I-10 was built in the area, and rail passenger traffic was but a small fraction of its former self, SP elected to sever the Douglas/EP&SW line due to maintenance costs, particularly sand clearance in extreme SW NM and flash floods along the San Pedro River between Bisbee and Benson; all now-UP traffic uses the original SP line via Willcox, which underwent grade-reduction realignment between Benson and Willcox in the late '70's. SP sold the remains of the line from Benson to Douglas to a small start-up regional in the early '80's. But for over 40 years both rail and road corridors via Douglas and the border region thrived despite being much longer than the straighter AZ 86 & NM 14 -- partially due to Douglas' promotion as a tourist-friendly border town -- and the presence of the historic town of Tombstone south of Benson -- which became in itself a tourist attraction due to its wealth of Earp/OK Corral-related western lore.
Makes sense. Acording to a set of 1937 county maps, all of SR 86 was mostly unimproved and dirt between Benson and NM 14 save for the concurrency with SR 81/US 666 from Cochise to Bowie Junction. Plus there were tons of hairpin curves and winding indirect sections. Most of that old roadbed still exists, its just overgrown and abandoned or on private lands in many cases. Luzena Road/Rio Oro Trail from US 191 to Bowie is a drivable 4WD section of old SR 86 as proven by the old 1937 maps. Interestingly between Bowie and San Simon, SR 86 originally followed an abandoned roadbed north of the SP. The 1941 route is now the north frontage road. I-10 overlays the 1941 SR 86 after it was rebuilt on a straighter alignment. It must've been interesting to motor across the Wilcox Playa by way of Model T following the old heavy gauge steel swastikas.
VS988
Also, here's the 1998 ADOT Log, which for some reason includes SR 910, SR 810, SR 589, etc. even though none of these highways were ever established.
Heres resolutions too:
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&eyear=&crc=3&rtnum=910&submit1=Submit
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&eyear=&crc=3&rtnum=810&submit1=Submit
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&eyear=&crc=3&rtnum=982&submit1=Submit
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&eyear=&crc=3&rtnum=589&submit1=Submit
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&eyear=&crc=3&rtnum=983&submit1=Submit
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?syear=&eyear=&crc=3&rtnum=989&submit1=Submit
Looks like they existed only in legislation, similar to how SR 11 (the present one) only existed on paper until it was built. Only difference is they were never built and later removed from legislation (or still exist in legislation but will never be used). Of course 989 was the only one actually added and that was just to maintain the bridge on Tangerine Road.
Okay, there's a new mystery afoot regarding SR 84's eastern terminus after 1940. This resolution and postcard show SR 84 ended at 6th and Benson:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/edge_and_corner_wear/6339348976
http://azhighwaydata.com/resolutions/?resnum=1937-P-447
There are no resolutions available online stating SR 84 had ever been truncated past that point in the 40's, but this map along with the insets of every state highway map and other road maps I've observed during SR 84's existence in Tucson suggest the designation ended at the traffic circle with Drachman and Oracle. This is seriously confusing me, especially since SR 93 and SR 789 are shown on later maps still concurring with US 80 and US 89 south of Drachman, minus SR 84.
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~212277~5500329:Shell-Street-Map-of-Tucson--Shell-M?sort=pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_list_no%2Cseries_no&qvq=q:where%3DTucson;sort:pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_list_no%2Cseries_no;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=2&trs=5
Here is a link to a 1950 Tucson map showing AZ 84 multiplexed with US 80/89 down to Oracle Rd. and Drachmann St., but no further. The road to Nogales is just US 89 -- no AZ 93 or 789 at the time. AZ 84 turns left at "Casa Grande Rd." about a mile north of downtown. I have no idea what that street is called today.
AZ 86 to Ajo is there, but the street name is Indian School Rd., not Ajo Way, and it ends at US 89 (6th Ave). It is not co-signed with US 80 on Tucson-Benson Highway.
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~293040~90065324:Map-of-greater-Tucson-and-surroundi
Here's one from 1956 from the same site. It shows US 80, US 89, AZ 84, AZ 93, and AZ 789 co-signed on Oracle Rd. to downtown, where 84 is dropped. Casa Grande Rd. is still AZ 84 (and AZ 93), but it ends at the Tucson Controlled Access Highway, with what would later become I-10 already marked on the map, and some access roads built. I'm guessing now that then-Casa Grande Rd. is now Miracle Mile. 6th Ave. (Nogales Hwy) is shown as US 89/AZ 93/AZ 789.
AZ 86 is now shown as Ajo Way, but it still ends at 6th Ave.
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~212277~5500329:Shell-Street-Map-of-Tucson--Shell-M
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 10, 2018, 11:39:58 PM
This 1938 Arizona State Highway Map seems to suggest that the original routing of 86 only ran between the State Line and US 80 in Benson:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1938-4.jpg)
Most of that alignment was likely overlaid by Interstate 10 when it was completed likely circa 1970 in that area (Benson). There is a short piece of AZ 86 shown on the Benson chamber of commerce map, it extends east from AZ 80 / former US 80, to end, as a frontage stub just east of the Pomerene Road exit. Of course the chamber of commerce map gives both 86 and 80 US Federal shields.
Quote from: DJStephens on October 06, 2018, 04:38:20 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 10, 2018, 11:39:58 PM
This 1938 Arizona State Highway Map seems to suggest that the original routing of 86 only ran between the State Line and US 80 in Benson:
(https://www.arizonaroads.com/maps/1938-4.jpg)
Most of that alignment was likely overlaid by Interstate 10 when it was completed likely circa 1970 in that area (Benson). There is a short piece of AZ 86 shown on the Benson chamber of commerce map, it extends east from AZ 80 / former US 80, to end, as a frontage stub just east of the Pomerene Road exit. Of course the chamber of commerce map gives both 86 and 80 US Federal shields.
Yeah. Further research showed an old railroad underpass near the US 191 interchange east of Wilcox (now part of a dead end west/south frontage road), the Business Loops in Wilcox, Bowie and San Simon, as well as the north frontage road between Bowie and San Simon are the last remaining parts of the 1941 route of SR 86 that haven't been overlaid by I-10 besides the section you mentioned in Benson. There's also a small bit of old roadbed north of the Interstate at the state border which used to be both SR 86 abd NM 14.
VS988