In case no one has done this before, here are the three main methods that are used for collecting highway tolls.
Ticket system
Method: Closed, distance-based payment. Ticket with prices to exits (and highway termini) is obtained at entry and handed over with toll at exit.
Benefits: Tolls are collected mainly at exits, eliminating need for frequent mainline toll plazas, except at the ends of the highway. All traffic entering and exiting can be clustered into a single interchange for getting tickets/paying tolls, in most instances leading to less traffic. Good for long-haul roads.
Drawbacks: Usually only a small number of interchanges can be built, owing to the cost of building them along with the toll booths (although the PA Turnpike, with the EZ-Pass-only slip ramps, gets around that.) Along with that, congestion can occur at the tolls as the vast majority of toll lanes are low-speed.
Barrier toll system
Method: A system of toll barriers charging flat fares along regular intervals of the highway, usually in conjunction with tolls at entrances and exits.
Benefits: The need for usually only one or two mainline barriers makes it ideal for shorter-distance highways. Exits usually need tolls facing only one direction, usually away from the plaza. Some can even get away with having no ramp tolls at all.
Drawbacks: The presence of multiple toll plazas along a highway can slow traffic down quite a bit, though ETC can take a bite out of that. Also, not having exit tolls at some exits can lead to "shunpiking" and loss of revenue.
Open road tolling
Method: Same as a barrier toll, in some respects, but completely electronic.
Benefits: Saves money from having to build and maintain cash tollbooths. Traffic can continuously move at highway speeds. On top of that, all-electronic toll roads can fit into tighter areas, without need for a wider cash toll point.
Drawbacks: There are going to be plenty of users who don't pay. This, though, can be cracked down on with monetary and legal penalties to the most habitual violators.
Those are some of the benefits and drawbacks to the different tolling systems in common use. Shout out any others you can think of below. Thanks!
Combinations --
Ticket system plus open road tolling -- toll plazas can have both types of lanes
Barrier toll system plus open road tolling -- toll plazas can have both types of lanes
I have stated my distaste in the past for AET systems because I do not want to waste my time later trying to figure out how to pay tolls online. Let me pay my toll when I'm using your road so I can be done with it.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 14, 2018, 04:50:39 AM
I have stated my distaste in the past for AET systems because I do not want to waste my time later trying to figure out how to pay tolls online. Let me pay my toll when I'm using your road so I can be done with it.
AET in Massachusetts uses mail for those without E-ZPass; it's not online.
Quote from: 1 on September 14, 2018, 05:33:20 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 14, 2018, 04:50:39 AM
I have stated my distaste in the past for AET systems because I do not want to waste my time later trying to figure out how to pay tolls online. Let me pay my toll when I'm using your road so I can be done with it.
AET in Massachusetts uses mail for those without E-ZPass; it's not online.
Which is even worse.
I agree with Highway Man - there should always be an option to settle the transaction on a spot. With all sort of automation we have, this should be doable - even if that involves pulling over and dealing with the machine. If cash or credit machine can be used to sell cola, it should be able to collect toll.
Mail or online - post-trip billing involves too much personal information waiting to be hacked, and too much potential for abuse.
A drawback to the ticket system when cash payment is allowed: Some people either don't read the ticket or don't know how to read the ticket and therefore take forever to pay the toll, holding up other people when it's time to exit.
Some toll roads are a hybrid of the ticket system and barrier tolls; Florida's Turnpike is the most notable that comes to mind, as it uses a ticket system between Lantana and a point south of the Orlando area combined with barrier tolls elsewhere (including all-AET sections in the Greater Miami area), plus there are sections in the Orlando area that are effectively toll-free.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 14, 2018, 07:30:19 AM
A drawback to the ticket system when cash payment is allowed: Some people either don't read the ticket or don't know how to read the ticket and therefore take forever to pay the toll, holding up other people when it's time to exit.
Most people don't know how to read the ticket. Many people if they take the same route every day know what the toll is and just have their money ready. But if they enter or exit at a different plaza, they either forget and try handing over the same amount as they normally do, or have to wait for the toll taker to inform them of the toll.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 07:22:40 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 14, 2018, 05:33:20 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 14, 2018, 04:50:39 AM
I have stated my distaste in the past for AET systems because I do not want to waste my time later trying to figure out how to pay tolls online. Let me pay my toll when I'm using your road so I can be done with it.
AET in Massachusetts uses mail for those without E-ZPass; it's not online.
Which is even worse.
I agree with Highway Man - there should always be an option to settle the transaction on a spot. With all sort of automation we have, this should be doable - even if that involves pulling over and dealing with the machine. If cash or credit machine can be used to sell cola, it should be able to collect toll.
Mail or online - post-trip billing involves too much personal information waiting to be hacked, and too much potential for abuse.
However, you don't have 30 people standing in line at a Coke machine.
And once you allow people to pay with cash/credit, you can't just have one lane - you have to have enough lanes to handle the traffic wanting to pay with those methods. Using the NJ Turnpike or GS Parkway as good, long time examples, you can have a few lanes handling electronic toll payments at high speed, but you need at least 2 lanes per AET lane to handle cash/credit card transactions. Even if cash/cc users only make up 15% or so of the travelers on a highway, they take up 75% of the room at a toll plaza. And once you accept cash and cc payments, you need facilities to handle the control rooms, maintenance worker, toll employees, secured vehicles to pick up the money collected, 24 hour staffing by at least 2 people, etc.
In modern times, taking cash is just a pain in the ass.
Of course, there are options if you don't want to pay later on all AET systems: Don't use the road. Sure, it'll probably take you longer, but most likely there are alternative routes to take. Just because it's the fastest way doesn't mean you have to go that way - heck, we have a subforum on here dedicated to optional routes to avoid traffic!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2018, 08:14:33 AM
However, you don't have 30 people standing in line at a Coke machine.
It is called "planning".
Quote
And once you allow people to pay with cash/credit, you can't just have one lane - you have to have enough lanes to handle the traffic wanting to pay with those methods. Using the NJ Turnpike or GS Parkway as good, long time examples, you can have a few lanes handling electronic toll payments at high speed, but you need at least 2 lanes per AET lane to handle cash/credit card transactions. Even if cash/cc users only make up 15% or so of the travelers on a highway, they take up 75% of the room at a toll plaza. And once you accept cash and cc payments, you need facilities to handle the control rooms, maintenance worker, toll employees, secured vehicles to pick up the money collected, 24 hour staffing by at least 2 people, etc.
Did you ever hear the term "cost of doing business"?.
Quote
Of course, there are options if you don't want to pay later on all AET systems: Don't use the road. Sure, it'll probably take you longer, but most likely there are alternative routes to take. Just because it's the fastest way doesn't mean you have to go that way - heck, we have a subforum on here dedicated to optional routes to avoid traffic!
If you don't like cavity searches - don't fly. If you don't like surveillance - move to the cabin in the woods...
I can only imagine how much pain someone like you feels on 4th of July - celebrating those terrorists rebelling against lawful powers of His Majesty....
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
Many newer toll facilities don't even have a cash option at all (such were built that way) and some older facilities (the Mass. Pike and all three harbor/river crossings in Boston) have since been converted to AET.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2018, 08:14:33 AM
And once you allow people to pay with cash/credit, you can't just have one lane - you have to have enough lanes to handle the traffic wanting to pay with those methods. Using the NJ Turnpike or GS Parkway as good, long time examples, you can have a few lanes handling electronic toll payments at high speed, but you need at least 2 lanes per AET lane to handle cash/credit card transactions. Even if cash/cc users only make up 15% or so of the travelers on a highway, they take up 75% of the room at a toll plaza. And once you accept cash and cc payments, you need facilities to handle the control rooms, maintenance worker, toll employees, secured vehicles to pick up the money collected, 24 hour staffing by at least 2 people, etc.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 08:25:01 AM
Did you ever hear the term "cost of doing business"?.
I've heard of that term before.
So have the toll agencies.
And the toll agencies have decided that the cost of doing business by accommodating cash payers isn't worth the money.
Collecting tolls has always been a costly expense, and with AET, it's much, much cheaper, even with the mailings and trying to recoup the money after the fact.
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 14, 2018, 10:22:59 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
Many newer toll facilities don't even have a cash option at all (such were built that way) and some older facilities (the Mass. Pike and all three harbor/river crossings in Boston) have since been converted to AET.
AET normally includes a non-transponder option thru license plate scanning, but they normally charge a hefty premium to those tollings.
I suppose they could send an mailed invoice to someone who won't use credit cards, but there would likely be a hefty premium for that as well.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2018, 10:31:47 AM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 08:25:01 AM
Did you ever hear the term "cost of doing business"?.
I've heard of that term before.
So have the toll agencies.
And the toll agencies have decided that the cost of doing business by accommodating cash payers isn't worth the money.
Collecting tolls has always been a costly expense, and with AET, it's much, much cheaper, even with the mailings and trying to recoup the money after the fact.
Well, thats why customer protection regulations exist - many toll roads are essentially monopolies, so nothing wrong with some regulation. Like applying "same price, cash or credit" concept...
Quote from: Beltway on September 14, 2018, 10:32:05 AMI suppose they could send an mailed invoice to someone who won't use credit cards, but there would likely be a hefty premium for that as well.
I know that MA, NY & PA do
Toll-By-Mail (TBM) for their AET facilities for non-E-ZPass users. It's the recipient's decision whether they want to pay their mailed toll bill by check or list their credit card number on the invoice & mail it back.
I could be mistaken but I don't believe there's an additional charge aside from the difference between the E-ZPass rate and the TBM rate... at least not a hefty one. Such is dependent upon which agency is charging the toll.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
Did any toll agency dropped their toll at least 30% after AET was implemented? If not, I suspect your 2x estimate is plain wrong.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 11:09:18 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
Did any toll agency dropped their toll at least 30% after AET was implemented? If not, I suspect your 2x estimate is plain wrong.
In Illinois, on the ISTHA tollways, the cash rate is 2x the I-Pass rate.
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 11:09:18 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
Did any toll agency dropped their toll at least 30% after AET was implemented? If not, I suspect your 2x estimate is plain wrong.
In Illinois, on the ISTHA tollways, the cash rate is 2x the I-Pass rate.
And I believe the discount on the ITR from the Skyway to the ticket barrier is even steeper.
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
For many people, it's a small price to pay.
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 11:09:18 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
Did any toll agency dropped their toll at least 30% after AET was implemented? If not, I suspect your 2x estimate is plain wrong.
In Illinois, on the ISTHA tollways, the cash rate is 2x the I-Pass rate.
Question is a bi different. Of course, charging infrequent customers at 2X rate under "they don't vote here" assumption is a common thing these days.
But, if the overall cost of AET transaction is 2x lower than cash, one would expect that AET introduction would cut tolls 2x. I don't think any AET system achieved that - making me believe that cash customers are charged 2x not because underlying costs are higher - but because they will pay whatever is on a bill.
And using legislative regulation is perfectly OK in such cases when a too-big-to-fail agency goes on a power trip.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 12:49:33 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 11:09:18 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don’t like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
Did any toll agency dropped their toll at least 30% after AET was implemented? If not, I suspect your 2x estimate is plain wrong.
In Illinois, on the ISTHA tollways, the cash rate is 2x the I-Pass rate.
Question is a bi different. Of course, charging infrequent customers at 2X rate under "they don't vote here" assumption is a common thing these days.
But, if the overall cost of AET transaction is 2x lower than cash, one would expect that AET introduction would cut tolls 2x. I don't think any AET system achieved that - making me believe that cash customers are charged 2x not because underlying costs are higher - but because they will pay whatever is on a bill.
And using legislative regulation is perfectly OK in such cases when a too-big-to-fail agency goes on a power trip.
As long as that money saved is going towards improvements, personally I'm fine with it. Taxpayers are always saying that if costs are reduced, then they should pass along the savings. It doesn't work like that, because while some costs are reduced, other costs are increasing.
I always find it ironic as well that people willingly accept price increases from private companies without much thought other than 'inflation'. These private companies spend millions upon millions of dollars on themselves. Parties, conferences, meetings, planes, trips, rewards, etc, etc, etc. The consumer pays for all of it, and there's no getting around it by buying other products. Yet, they find out their councilman spent $20 at dinner and they go ballistic. Yet when it comes time for re-election, they vote the guy back in!
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 12:49:33 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:17:29 AM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 11:09:18 AM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 10:14:45 AM
There are enough people who don't like being tracked by toll transponders and/or credit cards that cash is going to stick around until another method of paying for tolls without being traced is invented.
And cash is probably equally as fast as paying a toll with a credit card at a manned or unmanned booth, probably faster than a chip transaction.
That is, of course, if they enjoy paying twice as much at each toll plaza.
Did any toll agency dropped their toll at least 30% after AET was implemented? If not, I suspect your 2x estimate is plain wrong.
In Illinois, on the ISTHA tollways, the cash rate is 2x the I-Pass rate.
Question is a bi different. Of course, charging infrequent customers at 2X rate under "they don't vote here" assumption is a common thing these days.
But, if the overall cost of AET transaction is 2x lower than cash, one would expect that AET introduction would cut tolls 2x. I don't think any AET system achieved that - making me believe that cash customers are charged 2x not because underlying costs are higher - but because they will pay whatever is on a bill.
And using legislative regulation is perfectly OK in such cases when a too-big-to-fail agency goes on a power trip.
Actually, the 2x rate is the carrot to convince people to use I-Pass (EZ Pass) instead of cash. It works too, as over 87% of tollway users use an I-Pass (EZ Pass).
IMHO,
- Any toll system that is based on computer recognition of plates should be banned. The level of mistakes by state DMVs is sometimes upwards of 10%. People often do not recieve the bills in the mail and have registrations and DLs cancelled due to supposed non-payment. Which is almost certainly unconstitutional.
- "Soak the stranger" schemes such as deep discounts for regular users just invite other states to do the same and in the end everyone loses.
- Schemes that require rental car users to pay via the rental car agency (bandits all) should be banned. There should always be a cash option.
I don't think ORT should be used in the same set of categories. ORT can be used with either ticket or barrier systems. I like the delineation made by Peter Samuel, who described open road tolling as using full-speed lanes for electronic toll collection with a toll booth aside on bypass lanes, while all-electronic collection has no option for payment on the road, or reason to slow down.
I would propose that ticket and barrier be considered as cost calculating methods and ORT and AET, along with an old-fashioned toll booth with or without low-speed electronic lanes, be considered as collection methods.
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 01:10:36 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 12:49:33 PM
Question is a bi different. Of course, charging infrequent customers at 2X rate under "they don't vote here" assumption is a common thing these days.
But, if the overall cost of AET transaction is 2x lower than cash, one would expect that AET introduction would cut tolls 2x. I don't think any AET system achieved that - making me believe that cash customers are charged 2x not because underlying costs are higher - but because they will pay whatever is on a bill.
And using legislative regulation is perfectly OK in such cases when a too-big-to-fail agency goes on a power trip.
Actually, the 2x rate is the carrot to convince people to use I-Pass (EZ Pass) instead of cash. It works too, as over 87% of tollway users use an I-Pass (EZ Pass).
And I am only moderately uncomfortable with that. Punitive charges for locals... Well, maybe not a good idea... But if I am far enough from home to be out of ezpass area, I would likely have only a few tolled trips. Extra $10-20 is a small part of trip cost (which would start with $200-500 air fare or a few hundred miles worth of gas and car wear) - but paying for peace of mind that all charges are settled definitely worth it, even if it is an unfair charge.
QuotePeople often do not receive disregard the bills they receive in the mail and discover they cannot have registrations and DLs cancelled renewed due to supposed their intentional non-payment.
FIFY
Quote from: roadman on September 14, 2018, 02:00:38 PM
QuotePeople often do not receive disregard the bills they receive in the mail and discover they cannot have registrations and DLs cancelled renewed due to supposed their intentional non-payment.
FIFY
It was correct before. Massachusetts isn't one of the offenders, but it applies to several other states.
If they didn't receive bills in the mail, then something was wrong with the mailing address at the source. And bills aren't sent out once, but multiple times.
And of course people are going to say they didn't receive something, especially if they think it's junk mail and just toss it.
I'm also pretty sure the people that receive license suspensions are in the vast minority. And in all cases, they didn't go thru once - they went thru multiple times. They thought they were gaming the system...until they were notified about the fines and penalties they accrued, and then the license suspension.
Of course, when they go on the news and complain, they'll say everything to act like the victim. And the media will generally slant the story to make it look like they're the victim. In reality - they knew what they were doing, and are pissed they got caught.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 01:23:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 14, 2018, 01:10:36 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 12:49:33 PM
Question is a bi different. Of course, charging infrequent customers at 2X rate under "they don't vote here" assumption is a common thing these days.
But, if the overall cost of AET transaction is 2x lower than cash, one would expect that AET introduction would cut tolls 2x. I don't think any AET system achieved that - making me believe that cash customers are charged 2x not because underlying costs are higher - but because they will pay whatever is on a bill.
And using legislative regulation is perfectly OK in such cases when a too-big-to-fail agency goes on a power trip.
Actually, the 2x rate is the carrot to convince people to use I-Pass (EZ Pass) instead of cash. It works too, as over 87% of tollway users use an I-Pass (EZ Pass).
And I am only moderately uncomfortable with that. Punitive charges for locals... Well, maybe not a good idea... But if I am far enough from home to be out of ezpass area, I would likely have only a few tolled trips. Extra $10-20 is a small part of trip cost (which would start with $200-500 air fare or a few hundred miles worth of gas and car wear) - but paying for peace of mind that all charges are settled definitely worth it, even if it is an unfair charge.
Anyone and everyone who has an I-Pass or an EZ Pass can get the discount in Illinois. This includes EZ Passes from as far as Maine or as close as Indiana. And ISTHA is willing to dole out I-Passes to people from Chicago to California.
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.
The surveillance argument is also BS. The government can get more by tracking your cell phone than by tracking an E-ZPass or license plate. It's actually ILLEGAL in most (if not all jurisdictions) to use E-ZPass data for anything other than toll collection. In some cases, the government will even listen to your calls without a warrant! See the Erie County, NY Sheriff's Department for that one.
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.
Which is pretty irrelevant to the situation at hand.
Quote
The surveillance argument is also BS. The government can get more by tracking your cell phone than by tracking an E-ZPass or license plate. It's actually ILLEGAL in most (if not all jurisdictions) to use E-ZPass data for anything other than toll collection. In some cases, the government will even listen to your calls without a warrant! See the Erie County, NY Sheriff's Department for that one.
So what?
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.
....
Virginia also has something called the E-ZPass Reload Card that lets you replenish your E-ZPass using cash at certain retailers, such as 7-11 and CVS, so you don't even have to go to a DMV or an E-ZPass service center. I don't know much about how it works because I have no need for that card, but http://www.ezpassva.com would have the info.
The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded. I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators. In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy. The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 03:21:16 PM
Which is pretty irrelevant to the situation at hand.
Being as at least 1/4 of the posts in this thread are talking about how AET systems do not allow one to pay in cash, yes, it is relevant, because there ARE cash payment methods.
Quote
So what?
So what? The only way to avoid surveillance is to never leave your house that is in the middle of nowhere and off of the grid. It has been impossible to avoid any surveillance for a good 20+ years.
Quote from: wxfree on September 14, 2018, 03:28:11 PM
The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded. I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators. In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy. The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.
You do realize that police cars in many places have LPR systems, right? Only takes a few seconds to run your plate through the system.
But back to the topic at hand...
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2018, 02:32:06 PM
If they didn't receive bills in the mail, then something was wrong with the mailing address at the source. And bills aren't sent out once, but multiple times.
And of course people are going to say they didn't receive something, especially if they think it's junk mail and just toss it.
I'm also pretty sure the people that receive license suspensions are in the vast minority. And in all cases, they didn't go thru once - they went thru multiple times. They thought they were gaming the system...until they were notified about the fines and penalties they accrued, and then the license suspension.
Of course, when they go on the news and complain, they'll say everything to act like the victim. And the media will generally slant the story to make it look like they're the victim. In reality - they knew what they were doing, and are pissed they got caught.
Most agencies have a minimum balance before they'll even go to a collection agency or do other measures. Just not worth the cost otherwise.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2018, 02:32:06 PMIf they didn't receive bills in the mail, then something was wrong with the mailing address at the source. And bills aren't sent out once, but multiple times.
These assumptions are not borne out by the evidence. It is perfectly possible for mail to be stolen out of mailboxes--this has happened to us at least once. And "first notice received is violation notice" has been an observed problem with some toll agencies, notably NTTA.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2018, 02:32:06 PMI'm also pretty sure the people that receive license suspensions are in the vast minority. And in all cases, they didn't go thru once - they went thru multiple times. They thought they were gaming the system...until they were notified about the fines and penalties they accrued, and then the license suspension.
Yes, people do game the system. But toll agencies also hoard video license plate data until they get access to new license plate databases: there is no statute of limitations or other customer protection mechanism to force forgiveness of stale tolls. There have been many documented instances of the right license plate number from the wrong state being billed. Moreover, considering that many states issue specialty license plates with overlapping series and ANPR readers have difficulty with specialty plates (e.g., Kansas DOR duplicates numbers across all of the specialty plate series, meaning that if you have 35431 as a Kansas veteran's plate, you can receive a bill/violation notice for a toll incurred by someone with 35431 in one of the university plate series), some kind of statute of limitations on unpaid toll helps protect the innocent.
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PMThe surveillance argument is also BS. The government can get more by tracking your cell phone than by tracking an E-ZPass or license plate. It's actually ILLEGAL in most (if not all jurisdictions) to use E-ZPass data for anything other than toll collection.
I don't think the surveillance argument is complete BS. The doctrine of parallel construction allows law enforcement to use illegally acquired evidence to build a case if there is some way they could plausibly have obtained that evidence through legitimate means, even if those means were not in fact used. Moreover, the toll agency is not the only entity with the capability to read toll transponders: readers are sold on the open market and can be bought on eBay. Toll agencies are not, as a rule, obliged to tell exactly where and how they deploy readers, and I have suspected several of using readers in undocumented locations that are tied to their fiber optic networks.
It is certainly true you can be tracked through your phone. You can also be tracked through the PCM in your car. (I believe it is a current OBD II requirement that the diagnostic system be remotely accessible over the air, so the hardware is there even if the car is not sold with a value-added remote diagnosis and assistance system like OnStar.)
Fees for out of state users are quite reasonable in Florida ($0.25 per booth extra and $2.50 added per month whether you drive a toll road once or repeatedly during that month) and Texas (at least the Austin area...tolls are 1/3 higher and there is a $1.15 fee per month).
Some (Most?) of these agencies allow you to pay online whether you have received the bill or not...
I also agree that rental car companies are ripping people off with the way they do tolling issues.
Quote from: wxfree on September 14, 2018, 03:28:11 PM
The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded. I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators. In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy. The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.
Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored...
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 03:40:12 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 03:21:16 PM
Which is pretty irrelevant to the situation at hand.
Being as at least 1/4 of the posts in this thread are talking about how AET systems do not allow one to pay in cash, yes, it is relevant, because there ARE cash payment methods.
Cash
on the spot, I would say. I can pay EZpass through the credit card, and pay bill by cash - bring money to the post office, buy a money order, mail it to credit card company. However, that is not the point - using cash as a
direct payment method is the key issue.
Quote
Quote
So what?
So what? The only way to avoid surveillance is to never leave your house that is in the middle of nowhere and off of the grid. It has been impossible to avoid any surveillance for a good 20+ years.
Someone else doing things wrong doesn't justify another wrongdoing. Fact that there were 10 homicides in Albany this year is absolutely irrelevant to, for example, me trying to slap your face. Giving yet another shady semi-governmental entity information it doesn't really need is not a good idea, regardless of the way ATT or Google tracks my phone.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 04:20:53 PM
Quote from: wxfree on September 14, 2018, 03:28:11 PM
The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded. I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators. In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy. The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.
Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored...
In Kentucky, at least, traffic camera images are not saved. The state has determined that it's just easier that way so they don't have to respond to requests or subpoenas.
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 04:29:58 PMCash on the spot, I would say. I can pay E-ZPass through the credit card, and pay bill by cash - bring money to the post office, buy a money order, mail it to credit card company. However, that is not the point - using cash as a directpayment method is the key issue.
I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument. Collection expense has always consumed a significant share of toll revenues (usually about 30%) and delays at toll plazas represent significant clawback of the time benefits of building a toll facility in the first place, so any technical solution that allows the toll agencies to reduce this burden will be well-nigh irresistible.
I think it is more important to ensure accountability in how toll collecting data is used, to ensure that there are no abuses of surveillance capabilities and that good-faith users of the toll road are shielded from the consequences of any back-office failures. It is also common to provide a mechanism to allow AET tolls to be settled online close in time to the actual tolling point transits, and I believe all agencies that operate AET or assess fines for toll nonpayment should be required to provide such mechanisms.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 14, 2018, 04:40:29 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 04:20:53 PM
Quote from: wxfree on September 14, 2018, 03:28:11 PM
The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded. I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators. In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy. The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.
Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored...
In Kentucky, at least, traffic camera images are not saved. The state has determined that it's just easier that way so they don't have to respond to requests or subpoenas.
There are lots of other types - security cameras for private and public entities, enforcement cameras such as red light and truck checkpoint enforcement. POssibly cameras in police cruisers - and god knows what else given that cameras are really small these days. I believe someone mentioned that you're on average filmed by 2 cameras at a time while walking on Manhattan, and I think that is a conservative estimate.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 14, 2018, 04:40:29 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 04:20:53 PM
Quote from: wxfree on September 14, 2018, 03:28:11 PM
The surveillance concern becomes irrelevant with all-electronic tolling, because the license plates of all vehicles are routinely photographed and recorded. I wouldn't be surprised if tolling authorities photographed plates on cars in the cash lanes so they can find violators. In either case, the vehicle identification device would make no difference in terms of privacy. The only way to avoid being tracked is to avoid toll facilities that do this.
Frankly speaking, there are enough cameras on non-toll facilities to make that argument irrelevant. It is more about information being explicitly collected and actually used on toll facilities - while only few people really know what happens with other cameras' footage. Maybe it is processed, maybe not, maybe data is stored...
In Kentucky, at least, traffic camera images are not saved. The state has determined that it's just easier that way so they don't have to respond to requests or subpoenas.
Utah traffic camera data isn't saved, either, but that's because the state legislature required it for fear of surveillance. They also required that the cameras be blurry enough that license plates are unreadable. In other words, the image quality sucks because the legislature mandated it.
That's also why red light cameras are banned. Speed cameras are technically allowed, but there are so many restrictions placed on their use that they are essentially unusable.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 14, 2018, 04:51:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 04:29:58 PMCash on the spot, I would say. I can pay E-ZPass through the credit card, and pay bill by cash - bring money to the post office, buy a money order, mail it to credit card company. However, that is not the point - using cash as a directpayment method is the key issue.
I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument. Collection expense has always consumed a significant share of toll revenues (usually about 30%) and delays at toll plazas represent significant clawback of the time benefits of building a toll facility in the first place, so any technical solution that allows the toll agencies to reduce this burden will be well-nigh irresistible.
I think it is more important to ensure accountability in how toll collecting data is used, to ensure that there are no abuses of surveillance capabilities and that good-faith users of the toll road are shielded from the consequences of any back-office failures. It is also common to provide a mechanism to allow AET tolls to be settled online close in time to the actual tolling point transits, and I believe all agencies that operate AET or assess fines for toll nonpayment should be required to provide such mechanisms.
I would love to see more physical payment option - like ATMs - at nearby locations. I suspect many stores and gas stations would be happy to get extra visitors, and rest/service areas are already there. It is hard to justify extra footprint on a road itself, especially in urban areas with high traffic.
Online payment is better than nothing, though.
Its a matter of being willing to create extra options as opposed to benefiting from fees and fines...
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 14, 2018, 04:51:45 PM
I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument.
Generally seems true, but with HOT lanes like on VA I-95 and VA I-495 there really isn't enough space to put a toll plaza anywhere.
Quote from: Beltway on September 14, 2018, 05:10:21 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 14, 2018, 04:51:45 PM
I have some sympathy with the view that there should always be an on-the-spot cash payment option, but I don't view this as a winnable argument.
Generally seems true, but with HOT lanes like on VA I-95 and VA I-495 there really isn't enough space to put a toll plaza anywhere.
Express lanes and such are a smaller issue from my perspective. One is not required to use them to get through, and they are primarily geared towards commuters. I am more concerned about the cases where there is only one bridge (or all bridges are tolled), or only one reasonable highway. Think NYS Thruway and Manhattan bridges or Penn Turnpike.
I agree with most others here that the E-ZPass tracking concern is completely nonsensical. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out: you have a photographable number on your car whose specific purpose is to identify the owner, and all toll booths have the technology to photograph it either for AET or to catch violators. With modern OCR technology, it is basically just as easy to track any car with a license plate as one with a toll transponder.
Most holdouts against E-ZPass I know of in downstate NY either very rarely use toll roads (which is not common considering how many of them there are), or are retired folks who can only pass time by being contrary anymore.
We already have facial recognition cameras running on some bridges & tunnels in NYC. If you think there is any way to avoid being tracked in public nowadays, you're deluding yourself.
Literally anyone with an EZ-Pass or a toll transponder that's compatible with EZ-Pass is entitled to the discounted I-Pass rate. It's far from "soak the strangers." And yes, the fee to use a toll transponder in a rental car is usurious. So is the fee for XM. You can get a month of streaming for what you pay the rental agency to use it for two days.
In regards to the idea of refilling an ETC account using cash, I think Puerto Rico has a few toll roads with dedicated "replenishment" lanes, and I also heard once that Florida was doing something similar.
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.
ISTHA can reload cash at the ISTHA Offices in Downers Grove, the I-Pass service centers in the Oases, and also I-Pass Toll Gift Cards, for lack of a better term, can be purchased with cash at Chicagoland Jewel (grocery) stores, and Road Ranger Truck Stops in Northern IL. Then the balance can be transferred from the Gift Card to the actual I-Pass account via calling 800.UC.IPASS or going to the getipass.com account management website
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.
How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it? What would the toll agency do if you did that?
The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.
How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it? What would the toll agency do if you did that?
The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
At a barrier toll plaza, they wouldn't let you through if you had a negative balance associated with the transponder. Same as what would happen if I tried to get on the L using a Ventra card with a negative balance.
At any rate, the complaints I've heard from those likeliest to line their baseball caps with tinfoil is the fact that "the government" is tracking your moves using your toll transponder. Methods of replenishment are largely irrelevant to them (though they probably hate credit/debit cards too).
Quote from: kalvado on September 14, 2018, 05:03:55 PMI would love to see more physical payment option - like ATMs - at nearby locations. I suspect many stores and gas stations would be happy to get extra visitors, and rest/service areas are already there. It is hard to justify extra footprint on a road itself, especially in urban areas with high traffic. Online payment is better than nothing, though. It's a matter of being willing to create extra options as opposed to benefiting from fees and fines...
The Illinois Tollway has a partnership with Jewel-Osco stores in the Chicago area that allow toll road users to obtain (and possibly also activate and recharge) toll transponders over the counter. This is useful when Internet access is unavailable, the lead time is too short for delivery by mail, or it is late at night and the Tollway service centers are all closed.
The really important thing, I feel, is to avoid setups like NTTA's ZipCash system. "Cash" in the name sounds like it is possible to settle on the spot with cash, but it is actually a pay-by-plate system, with no option for settling the toll bill before NTTA bills you. (A well-designed pay-by-plate system, like the FasTrak setup used for the San Francisco Bay Area bridges, allows you to specify a license plate, billing window, and payment instrument in advance; NTTA makes it impossible for you to pay until they bill you because an invoice number has to be supplied with the remittance.)
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 07:06:15 PMLiterally anyone with an EZ-Pass or a toll transponder that's compatible with EZ-Pass is entitled to the discounted I-Pass rate. It's far from "soak the strangers."
The "soak the strangers" complaint is not about the Illinois Tollway but rather about other E-ZPass toll agencies that offer commuter discount plans that are tied to residence in a particular commutershed, such as the New York Thruway's discount for the Grand Island bridges on the Niagara Thruway that is available only to residents on Grand Island. This is arguably discrimination on the basis of residency, but attempts at getting the federal courts to buy this argument have so far not proved successful.
One logical and effective remedy is to make buy-in to commuter discount plans available to everyone, at the same price, regardless of the actual agency issuing the transponder. For example, if I had an I-Pass but was located in the Buffalo area for my job (a plausible scenario for, e.g., my uncle, who worked for a company that was headquartered in Chicago and had a house in Naperville, but spent a large share of his working time in Tonawanda, New York), this setup would allow me to pay a set amount each year to access the commuter discount for the Grand Island bridges with my I-Pass.
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AMHow would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it? What would the toll agency do if you did that?
The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
The underlying problem is that the E-ZPass group is unwilling to contemplate billing in arrears, apparently because the agencies want to collect interest on funds on deposit and also retain the opportunity to charge fees when accounts are temporarily depleted before auto-replenishment kicks in. These practices border on the predatory, and take-up of transponders would likely be higher if they were abolished.
In the Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas interoperability area, all billing (at least in Kansas) is in arrears. Tolls are allowed to accumulate on account before they are zeroed through automated withdrawal at the end of the month, if the outstanding balance is above a threshold amount, or at the end of the current six-month zero-out period, if the balance is below the threshold. The only catch is that the payment instrument linked to the account has to be valid at the time zero-out is sought. If it is not (usually because the credit card linked to the account has expired), then the outstanding balance has to be resolved as a late payment. For this reason the KTA encourages K-Tag holders to link their checking accounts to their K-Tag accounts rather than simply their credit cards.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
Quote from: cl94 on September 14, 2018, 02:59:30 PM
Here's something else people aren't mentioning: You can almost always reload an E-ZPass with cash!. I think every agency has at least one walk-in center where you can use cash to increase your balance.
How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it? What would the toll agency do if you did that?
The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
At a barrier toll plaza, they wouldn't let you through if you had a negative balance associated with the transponder...
Not true (at least at most agencies).
With auto-replenishment, they replenish the card after you get below a certain amount, but that occurs overnight. Well, if I have a $22 balance and take a long ride on the PA Turnpike, it'll drop it below $0. I have had no problem continuing onto the Ohio turnpike, which has gates. The system knows I'm good for the money due to the replenishment that'll occur that night.
Also, many agencies don't use gates, so there's nothing to stop you.
Also, of the agencies that have gates - they'll still rise even with no balance, or no EZ Pass whatsoever. The lane would quickly jam up with people waiting to go thru behind the stopped car, and that causes numerous other issues. Most agencies have video surveillance and will send the account holder a bill and/or fee for the unpaid toll.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2018, 11:12:08 AM
Also, of the agencies that have gates - they'll still rise even with no balance, or no EZ Pass whatsoever. The lane would quickly jam up with people waiting to go thru behind the stopped car, and that causes numerous other issues. Most agencies have video surveillance and will send the account holder a bill and/or fee for the unpaid toll.
This is absolutely not how it works on the Indiana Toll Road. The barriers stay down if there's any sort of issue at all with the transponder.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 14, 2018, 07:06:15 PM
Literally anyone with an EZ-Pass or a toll transponder that's compatible with EZ-Pass is entitled to the discounted I-Pass rate. It's far from "soak the strangers." And yes, the fee to use a toll transponder in a rental car is usurious. So is the fee for XM. You can get a month of streaming for what you pay the rental agency to use it for two days.
Rental car companies are notorious for finding ways to triple or quadruple the cost of renting a car. The base rate of 19.99 a day (which sounds really cheap) can easily top 60 or 70 dollars a day if you accept the extras like additional insurance, a gps, xm radio, toll transponders, etc. not to mention the taxes. I recall a rental car company in Belgium charging an extra 10 or 15 EUR a day for the special type of tires (not studded more like all-weather) that are required on all vehicles in Germany a during winter months. It would be cheaper to pay the fine if you got caught.
iPhone
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 10:27:33 AMAt any rate, the complaints I've heard from those likeliest to line their baseball caps with tinfoil is the fact that "the government" is tracking your moves using your toll transponder.
Of course, those folks tend to forget that this concern is readily addressed by placing one's transponder in a Faraday bag when not in use.
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.
Ultimately, it's the user's responsibility to ensure there's a sufficient balance, regardless of whether he replenishes with cash, credit, mailing in a check or money order, or some other means (do some agencies offer direct debit?). If you have to get a new credit card number for whatever reason, or (more commonly) if you get a new card when your old one is about to expire, it's still your responsibility to update your payment method.
Quote... tinfoil ...
Where does one even buy tinfoil these days? All the stores I visit only sell aluminum foil (although it works just fine for faraday cage purposes; I recently tested it with the keyless remote for my wife's TLX).
Quote from: theroadwayone on September 14, 2018, 12:46:35 AM
In case no one has done this before, here are the three main methods that are used for collecting highway tolls.
Ticket system
Method: Closed, distance-based payment. Ticket with prices to exits (and highway termini) is obtained at entry and handed over with toll at exit.
Benefits: Tolls are collected mainly at exits, eliminating need for frequent mainline toll plazas, except at the ends of the highway. All traffic entering and exiting can be clustered into a single interchange for getting tickets/paying tolls, in most instances leading to less traffic. Good for long-haul roads.
Drawbacks: Usually only a small number of interchanges can be built, owing to the cost of building them along with the toll booths (although the PA Turnpike, with the EZ-Pass-only slip ramps, gets around that.) Along with that, congestion can occur at the tolls as the vast majority of toll lanes are low-speed.
Barrier toll system
Method: A system of toll barriers charging flat fares along regular intervals of the highway, usually in conjunction with tolls at entrances and exits.
Benefits: The need for usually only one or two mainline barriers makes it ideal for shorter-distance highways. Exits usually need tolls facing only one direction, usually away from the plaza. Some can even get away with having no ramp tolls at all.
Drawbacks: The presence of multiple toll plazas along a highway can slow traffic down quite a bit, though ETC can take a bite out of that. Also, not having exit tolls at some exits can lead to "shunpiking" and loss of revenue.
Open road tolling
Method: Same as a barrier toll, in some respects, but completely electronic.
Benefits: Saves money from having to build and maintain cash tollbooths. Traffic can continuously move at highway speeds. On top of that, all-electronic toll roads can fit into tighter areas, without need for a wider cash toll point.
Drawbacks: There are going to be plenty of users who don't pay. This, though, can be cracked down on with monetary and legal penalties to the most habitual violators.
Those are some of the benefits and drawbacks to the different tolling systems in common use. Shout out any others you can think of below. Thanks!
The "ticket" system seems like the best to me until I come to the toll road (say the Penna Turnpike) and find that I miscalculated and that I am thirty miles from the closest on ramp, so I end up driving on the slower alternative(ie US 30) for a significant distance.
The barrier system is okay for short segments like the VA267 Greenway between Dulles and Leesburg in Virginia where you only hit it once and EZ lanes clears everyone through fairly quickly, but these are a pain on a long distance road like the major Autoroutes in France where every ten or twenty miles you have to stop to pay a toll, which quickly eats up your on hand cash unless you have their equivalent of an EZ Pass, and they create a lot of backups. I was able to use a credit card in certain lanes. If I recall right, cash drivers had 3-4 lanes and the transponder or credit card drivers could use the other 5-7 or so lanes which moved a lot faster. If you had to pay cash then you waited... With the shorter routes sometimes the amount seems like highway robbery (literally), such as the $6.50 charged each way during peak times on VA 267 between Dulles and Leesburg, which amounts to over $200 a month if you take that route every day. Luckily I leave early enough that VA 7 (Leesburg Pike) is a viable option, but between 7-9am and 4-6pm that is horribly congested compared to the toll option, in which case $6.50 sounds like a bargain compared to the extra 30-60 minutes longer commute inching along 7. I guess this decision point of weighing tine and money is what the toll advocates like to provide us with because certainly, if the toll on 267 stopped tomorrow, then a lot of the traffic on 7 would shift to 267, which would overwhelm that road, especially since its junction with 15 and 7 in Leesburg is already congested with the toll in place.
The third option "open road tolling" I guess works okay, but I like the confirmation that comes from the green light at the toll both barriers on the first two options. I don't like the idea of thinking I am in order until a stack of violation notices start showing up in my mailbox several days later. The two examples in the DC area are the Beltway express lanes and I-66 in Arlington during peak times, but I don't have enough experience using them to know how much of a problem this is.
There is a fourth option that I like - paying gas taxes at the pump and not even bothering with tolls.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
Where does one even buy tinfoil these days?
Oh, I bet you'd just love it
If I told you, narc!
EZ-Passes come with bags to be used as Faraday cages, and anyway, the issue the more conspiracy-minded is with being tracked while using toll transponders for their intended use, not at other times.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 11:51:53 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 15, 2018, 11:12:08 AM
Also, of the agencies that have gates - they'll still rise even with no balance, or no EZ Pass whatsoever. The lane would quickly jam up with people waiting to go thru behind the stopped car, and that causes numerous other issues. Most agencies have video surveillance and will send the account holder a bill and/or fee for the unpaid toll.
This is absolutely not how it works on the Indiana Toll Road. The barriers stay down if there’s any sort of issue at all with the transponder.
Hopefully traffic is light enough to deal with such issues out there. That would never work on the east coast where the gate often doesn't even have a chance to come down with traffic flying thru the lane right behind each other!
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 08:49:33 AM
How would you avoid depleting the balance before you remember to reload it? What would the toll agency do if you did that?
The advantage of auto-replenishment with a credit card or debit card, is that the toll account won't get depleted.
At a barrier toll plaza, they wouldn't let you through if you had a negative balance associated with the transponder. Same as what would happen if I tried to get on the L using a Ventra card with a negative balance.
At a barrier toll plaza, there is no good way to turn a vehicle around, and unless there is a police officer there, no way to detain the vehicle. Unless they want to keep the toll gate down but that causes a traffic backup.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.
If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35. I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.
Whatever it worth..
Quote from: FDICEstimates from the 2015 survey indicate that 7.0 percent of households in the United States were unbanked in 2015. This proportion represents approximately 9.0 million households. An additional 19.9 percent of U.S. households (24.5 million) were underbanked, meaning that the household had a checking or savings account but also obtained financial products and services outside of the banking system.
Whether we like it or not, there are enough people around who have no, or very limited, banking access. So it may be a matter of necessity, not a matter of choice.
Private for-profit may cinsider these people to be of little interest (although Amazon works hard to let them use Amazon services, for example). Road agencies are on a slightly different page, though.
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 15, 2018, 01:20:31 PM
....
EZ-Passes come with bags to be used as Faraday cages, and anyway, the issue the more conspiracy-minded is with being tracked while using toll transponders for their intended use, not at other times.
Not all agencies provide the "no-read bag." Virginia doesn't, or at least they didn't when I got our Virginia transponders (and they didn't offer me any when I swapped them for E-ZPass Flexes last year).
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 02:37:29 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.
If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35. I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.
You can do that if you have auto-replenishment, too, at least in Virginia anyway since their website provides a "make a one-time payment" option. I did that before a drive to Maine a few years back, prior to when I had two transponders on the one account, because I was concerned the number of out-of-state tolls might cause a negative balance if the replenishment didn't happen promptly (and indeed they didn't).
I've had SunPass replenishments post within minutes of going through a toll plaza, but that's slightly different because I've only ever used SunPass in Florida so there's no issue of out-of-state posting delays.
Quote from: kalvado on September 15, 2018, 05:05:26 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
I don't see why the agencies should have to bend over backwards to accommodate the cash-payers when it comes to a zero balance. You choose to replenish with cash, you choose to accept the responsibility of monitoring your balance and dealing with it as necessary, especially if you're planning a longer trip that might drain your balance partway through. It's not at all difficult to register for online account access, even if you don't use that access to top up your balance.
Whatever it worth..
Quote from: FDICEstimates from the 2015 survey indicate that 7.0 percent of households in the United States were unbanked in 2015. This proportion represents approximately 9.0 million households. An additional 19.9 percent of U.S. households (24.5 million) were underbanked, meaning that the household had a checking or savings account but also obtained financial products and services outside of the banking system.
Whether we like it or not, there are enough people around who have no, or very limited, banking access. So it may be a matter of necessity, not a matter of choice.
Private for-profit may cinsider these people to be of little interest (although Amazon works hard to let them use Amazon services, for example). Road agencies are on a slightly different page, though.
But I don't see how that changes anything I said. Regardless of whether you use a bank or not, you can still keep track of your E-ZPass balance and then replenish it as needed even if you use cash, regardless of whether you store that cash under your mattress, in a coffee can in the refrigerator, tucked in your bra if you're female, or wherever. My point is that it's the user's responsibility to ensure his account is adequately funded regardless of what payment method he uses.
I guess in my mind it's similar in principle to it being your obligation to renew your car's registration on time regardless of whether you receive a reminder notice from the DMV. The woman across the street currently has a ticket on her car, which is parked on a public street with expired license plates.
Ah, we bought our EZ-Pass in NJ and it came with a no-read bag. I don't believe my I-Pass came with one.
Quote from: theroadwayone on September 15, 2018, 12:48:14 AM
In regards to the idea of refilling an ETC account using cash, I think Puerto Rico has a few toll roads with dedicated "replenishment" lanes, and I also heard once that Florida was doing something similar.
Orlando has tested this concept using a couple lanes that are no longer needed due to the increase in electronic toll collection. They're actually full service lanes, so you can even buy a transponder in that lane.
One other concept unique in the Orlando area (at least I haven't seen it before) is as a compromise between the benefits of a ticketed system vs barrier system, there are a few toll booths that actually provide a credit on your account as well. In other words, a last entrance before a barrier toll may come with a 0.50 credit towards the barrier toll you're about to hit. Orlando's also got its tolls on roads with at grade intersections along with Florida having some tolls on a single lane undivided highways.
Florida's got it all on the toll systems: some areas AET, some barrier tolls, some ticket systems, some bridge tolls don't take any electronic methods of payment, in addition to the things I mentioned above.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 06:52:55 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 02:37:29 PM
If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35. I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.
You can do that if you have auto-replenishment, too, at least in Virginia anyway since their website provides a "make a one-time payment" option. I did that before a drive to Maine a few years back, prior to when I had two transponders on the one account, because I was concerned the number of out-of-state tolls might cause a negative balance if the replenishment didn't happen promptly (and indeed they didn't).
So doesn't EZPassVA have that covered? I never knew that might be a problem, that if I incurred a lot of expensive tolls out of state that the replenishment level of $35 wouldn't take care of that without me having to do anything different.
The only expensive tolls I use are here, with the HOT lanes on I-95 and I-495.
What would happen if I incurred $50 in tolls out of state in one day, would EZPass not work if it exceeded $35?
Quote from: Beltway on September 16, 2018, 02:16:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2018, 06:52:55 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 15, 2018, 02:37:29 PM
If someone knows they will have a lot of expensive activity soon, I suppose they could deposit far more than the common replenishment level of $35. I suppose you could deposit $200 or $300 or whatever.
You can do that if you have auto-replenishment, too, at least in Virginia anyway since their website provides a "make a one-time payment" option. I did that before a drive to Maine a few years back, prior to when I had two transponders on the one account, because I was concerned the number of out-of-state tolls might cause a negative balance if the replenishment didn't happen promptly (and indeed they didn't).
So doesn't EZPassVA have that covered? I never knew that might be a problem, that if I incurred a lot of expensive tolls out of state that the replenishment level of $35 wouldn't take care of that without me having to do anything different.
The only expensive tolls I use are here, with the HOT lanes on I-95 and I-495.
What would happen if I incurred $50 in tolls out of state in one day, would EZPass not work if it exceeded $35?
I don't know. It wouldn't likely be an issue for me now because we have two transponders, which means a $70 replenishment. Back then I didn't have two and I didn't want to find out whether slow-posting transactions would cause a problem. It was easier just to make a one-time $50 payment. Might not have been necessary, but not having to think about it was a positive.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 16, 2018, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: Beltway on September 16, 2018, 02:16:35 PM
What would happen if I incurred $50 in tolls out of state in one day, would EZPass not work if it exceeded $35?
I don't know. It wouldn't likely be an issue for me now because we have two transponders, which means a $70 replenishment. Back then I didn't have two and I didn't want to find out whether slow-posting transactions would cause a problem. It was easier just to make a one-time $50 payment. Might not have been necessary, but not having to think about it was a positive.
Here is what it says. Indirectly it is saying that there are many EZPass states, and that they can't speak for what another state's tollroad would do in such a case. Like you say, better safe than sorry. I also found the page on the website where you can make an additional payment online.
https://www.ezpassva.com/EZPages/Maintenance.aspx
Replenishing your account balance
- When your E-ZPass account reaches a balance less than or equal to the account's replenishment threshold—minimum $10.00 per transponder.
- If you choose to set your account to automatically replenish, your pre-determined replenishment amount will be transferred into your account within 24 hours of reaching the replenishment threshold. If you experience problems, you should contact the E-ZPass Customer Service Centers.
- If you choose to replenish manually, that's easy, too. You can add funds to your account by phone or online with a credit card, or mail your payment to one of our E-ZPass Customer Service Centers.
- It can take up to 24 hours for new accounts, payments, and new transponders to be activated and reflected at Virginia toll plazas, and up to 48 hours out of state.
- If you are traveling out of state and replenish your account by cash, it's a good idea to check your balance before you go.
Personally, I much prefer the ticket system that is used in Ohio and Pennsylvania. It feels much fairer to me than barrier tolling. We pay based on our mileage using the road, with a slightly reduced rate per mile for longer trips. We don't have to pay multiple times, unless a barrier is put in (like PA's one way toll near the OH border). There used to be less stops, but open road tolling fixed that issue.
With barriers, we could end up paying multiple tolls which tend to add up after a while. However, Illinois likes to put partial interchanges where the ramps lead right into or out of a barrier. That leads to stuff like I-80 eastbound, where a toll is paid (which is an inexpensive toll, so it's not bad here), but it doesn't matter where we get off (the options are Dixie, Halsted, or I-94/IL 394), the same amount is paid. It doesn't matter if we go the few blocks to Dixie or all 5 miles to I-80/94 straight ahead. Same amount. On I-294, the tolls are cheap enough that this isn't much of an issue, but when applied to I-88 or I-355 or the Skyway, it can be a bit unfair.
I was a little perplexed by Jeffandnicole's comment that replenishment lag can run overnight, so I did a GPS log study of my one and only I-Pass replenishment, which occurred when I dipped below my preconfigured replenishment threshold ($10) on Illinois Tollway infrastructure on 2018-07-29.
I entered Illinois with a balance on account of $11.60. I passed through the South Beloit toll plaza ($0.95) and the Dixon toll plaza ($1.80). The latter transit pushed me past the replenishment threshold. My GPS log for the trip says I cleared the toll plaza at 6.22 PM. The email informing me my account had replenished automatically was timestamped at 9.35 PM.
This translates to a delay of more than three hours in a situation where the toll transponder was issued by the same agency that handled the replenishment and assessed the toll that put the account past the replenishment threshold.
I don't remember exactly what the Illinois Tollway does with an account when a transponder linked to that account incurs fresh tolls (through tolling point transits) while the account balance is transiently negative. My recollection of the fine print, however, is that the Tollway does not guarantee the auto-replenishment mechanism will protect the customer from violation fines, even when the transponder is working 100% correctly, the vehicle license plate is registered, and the payment instrument specified for replenishment is continuously valid and able to supply the required funds. Other E-ZPass agencies may have a hold-harmless provision of this kind, but it would naturally apply only to transponders issued by those agencies.
This is why pre-payment as 1995hoo suggests confers added insulation from risk. The interest on a one-month float is insignificant, and it eliminates absolutely the need to consider variables such as replenishment lag, toll posting lag, any bunching of toll postings that may occur when E-ZPass agencies foreign to the transponder issuer are involved, the financial consequences of allowing the account balance to go negative for any length of time, etc.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 16, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
I was a little perplexed by Jeffandnicole's comment that replenishment lag can run overnight, so I did a GPS log study of my one and only I-Pass replenishment, which occurred when I dipped below my preconfigured replenishment threshold ($10) on Illinois Tollway infrastructure on 2018-07-29.
I entered Illinois with a balance on account of $11.60. I passed through the South Beloit toll plaza ($0.95) and the Dixon toll plaza ($1.80). The latter transit pushed me past the replenishment threshold. My GPS log for the trip says I cleared the toll plaza at 6.22 PM. The email informing me my account had replenished automatically was timestamped at 9.35 PM.
This translates to a delay of more than three hours in a situation where the toll transponder was issued by the same agency that handled the replenishment and assessed the toll that put the account past the replenishment threshold.
I don't remember exactly what the Illinois Tollway does with an account when a transponder linked to that account incurs fresh tolls (through tolling point transits) while the account balance is transiently negative. My recollection of the fine print, however, is that the Tollway does not guarantee the auto-replenishment mechanism will protect the customer from violation fines, even when the transponder is working 100% correctly, the vehicle license plate is registered, and the payment instrument specified for replenishment is continuously valid and able to supply the required funds. Other E-ZPass agencies may have a hold-harmless provision of this kind, but it would naturally apply only to transponders issued by those agencies.
This is why pre-payment as 1995hoo suggests confers added insulation from risk. The interest on a one-month float is insignificant, and it eliminates absolutely the need to consider variables such as replenishment lag, toll posting lag, any bunching of toll postings that may occur when E-ZPass agencies foreign to the transponder issuer are involved, the financial consequences of allowing the account balance to go negative for any length of time, etc.
My experience with NY Thruway was a lag of 3 days between account going into the red on Sunday (and one more toll after that) and automatic replenishment on Wednesday. Thruway treated that as a non-event. ANother such situation was account dipping into red on Saturday and replenished on Tuesday. All with autoreplenishment from a credit card, which should be an instant transaction.
Maybe 10+ years of account history did help somehow ...
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 16, 2018, 04:00:48 PM
This is why pre-payment as 1995hoo suggests confers added insulation from risk. The interest on a one-month float is insignificant, and it eliminates absolutely the need to consider variables such as replenishment lag, toll posting lag, any bunching of toll postings that may occur when E-ZPass agencies foreign to the transponder issuer are involved, the financial consequences of allowing the account balance to go negative for any length of time, etc.
I have had tolls as high as $28 to use the HOT lanes on I-95 and I-495, and it is usually above $12, and I have been using them about 4 times a year since they opened, but I have never yet had a replenishment issue with EZPassVA. On those trips other than the Bay Bridge or a short section of the PA Turnpike there are no other tolls.
The online interface at EZPassVA does enable you to set a higher replenishment amount, and to make onetime deposits. But the replenishment threshold seems to be unchangeable at $10.
EZPassVA knows that I am their customer and that my bills are always paid, so they likely have no reason to penalize if there is a replenishment delay. But another state's EZPass might not do that, they might refuse to pay the toll; so if I know I'll be paying say $50 in tolls in another state it would be wise to put extra money into the account, and that is no big deal it will eventually be used in any case.
The system is way smarter than you think.
I have my EZ Pass registered to a credit card with auto replenishment. If I go thru an EZ Pass lane and the toll causes my balance to be $2.75, the screen will read "GO EZ PASS PAID".
If someone that doesn't have auto replenishment goes thru a toll that causes their EZ Pass balance to drop to $2.75, they'll get a "GO LOW BAL" message.
The system knows your account in real time. It knows how you pay for your account. It has nothing to do with your history.or any other factors.
The replenishment deposit is not in real time, from what I have been seeing here. Sounds like a computer batch job that is run after midnight. So the balance could drop below zero and it might be up to 24 hours before a new replenishment deposit is drafted into your account.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 16, 2018, 09:10:22 PM
....
The system knows your account in real time. It knows how you pay for your account. It has nothing to do with your history.or any other factors.
But "know[ing] your account in real time" only means it knows what's posted. Suppose, I don't know, you've driven on toll roads in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine that day, they would give you a low balance, but those tolls have not all posted. The next barrier toll in Maine isn't going to return the "low balance" message because that information isn't there yet.