If GPA and GDOT do decide to replace the bridge, I wonder will it be similar to Charleston's Ravenel Bridge?
QuoteThe Georgia Ports Authority will work with the Georgia Department of Transportation and state legislators to examine the infrastructure and possible replacement of the Talmadge Bridge, GPA Executive Director Griff Lynch announced Thursday during the annual State of the Port address.
Work on the Savannah Harbor Expansion Project, which is halfway finished, is expected to be complete in 2021 and will bring larger ships.
Although no such vessels currently call on the U.S. East Coast, the port could handle some vessels up to 19,000 TEU capacity with a larger bridge.
http://www.savannahnow.com/news/20180920/georgia-ports-dot-to-study-possible-replacement-of-savannahs-talmadge-bridge
Quote from: afguy on September 20, 2018, 02:07:25 PM
If GPA and GDOT do decide to replace the bridge, I wonder will it be similar to Charleston's Ravenel Bridge?
QuoteThe Georgia Ports Authority will work with the Georgia Department of Transportation and state legislators to examine the infrastructure and possible replacement of the Talmadge Bridge, GPA Executive Director Griff Lynch announced Thursday during the annual State of the Port address.
Work on the Savannah Harbor Expansion Project, which is halfway finished, is expected to be complete in 2021 and will bring larger ships.
Although no such vessels currently call on the U.S. East Coast, the port could handle some vessels up to 19,000 TEU capacity with a larger bridge.
http://www.savannahnow.com/news/20180920/georgia-ports-dot-to-study-possible-replacement-of-savannahs-talmadge-bridge
All I can do is roll my eyes. :spin:
And what happens when they come out with a 25k TEU ship, a 30k TEU?
The Savannah River already rises 3.5 feet at the ferry terminal when the current ships pass by and the room between the ships and the shore is not all that great. As it is they are 1 rudder malfunction from a ship landing on the convention center steps.
Georgia's infatuation with keeping Savannah "current" with an inland port is bordering on massive waste. Yet more dredging, yet higher bridge, yet more TEU's to support.
I would say replace the Talmadge with a tunnel, but in 10 years GPA will want a 60 foot draft in the river and they find out the tunnel isn't deep enough. That is how insane this is getting.
Quote from: afguy on September 20, 2018, 02:07:25 PM
If GPA and GDOT do decide to replace the bridge, I wonder will it be similar to Charleston's Ravenel Bridge?
QuoteThe Georgia Ports Authority will work with the Georgia Department of Transportation and state legislators to examine the infrastructure and possible replacement of the Talmadge Bridge, GPA Executive Director Griff Lynch announced Thursday during the annual State of the Port address.
Work on the Savannah Harbor Expansion Project, which is halfway finished, is expected to be complete in 2021 and will bring larger ships.
Although no such vessels currently call on the U.S. East Coast, the port could handle some vessels up to 19,000 TEU capacity with a larger bridge.
http://www.savannahnow.com/news/20180920/georgia-ports-dot-to-study-possible-replacement-of-savannahs-talmadge-bridge
The second iteration of the Talmadge isn't that old; this is the equivalent of a sports team demanding a newer, bigger venue when the one they have isn't even twenty years old. Everyone wants that Panamax gold without checking to see if it might not be fools' gold instead.
This makes no sense. :banghead:
Quote from: DeaconG on September 21, 2018, 03:36:57 PMthis is the equivalent of a sports team demanding a newer, bigger venue when the one they have isn't even twenty years old.
Well, it
is in Georgia, so that's about right. :)
The current version of the Talmadge Bridge opened in 1991. The Georgia Dome was in use from 1992 to 2017. That's Georgia logic for ya.
Shades of the Sunshine Skyway. It almost makes me wish this was a Cantilever bridge so you could raise the roadbed like with the Bayonne Bridge.
I was going to say - that bridge isn't that old, is it?
I went to Hilton Head for spring break in high school and crossed it; I want to say it had just opened then. Would have been 1994 or 95.
Update:
QuoteSAVANNAH, Ga. (WSAV) — Back in October, the Georgia Ports Authority announced plans to raise the Talmadge Bridge, but there seems to be a change of heart. The bridge will now be replaced entirely, according to the Georgia Department of Transportation (GDOT).
The original plan was to raise the bridge without having to shut it down, by digging into the shipping channel. But it doesn't seem like the channel is deep enough to dig any further.
"Commerce is continuing to grow here," Mayor Van Johnson said in a press conference. "We've dug as far as we can safely dig so the bridge has now gotten in the way."
- https://www.wsav.com/news/local-news/savannah/georgia-department-of-transportation-plans-to-replace-talmadge-bridge-entirely/
Quote from: edwaleni on September 20, 2018, 08:51:00 PM
Quote from: afguy on September 20, 2018, 02:07:25 PM
If GPA and GDOT do decide to replace the bridge, I wonder will it be similar to Charleston's Ravenel Bridge?
QuoteThe Georgia Ports Authority will work with the Georgia Department of Transportation and state legislators to examine the infrastructure and possible replacement of the Talmadge Bridge, GPA Executive Director Griff Lynch announced Thursday during the annual State of the Port address.
Work on the Savannah Harbor Expansion Project, which is halfway finished, is expected to be complete in 2021 and will bring larger ships.
Although no such vessels currently call on the U.S. East Coast, the port could handle some vessels up to 19,000 TEU capacity with a larger bridge.
http://www.savannahnow.com/news/20180920/georgia-ports-dot-to-study-possible-replacement-of-savannahs-talmadge-bridge
All I can do is roll my eyes. :spin:
And what happens when they come out with a 25k TEU ship, a 30k TEU?
The Savannah River already rises 3.5 feet at the ferry terminal when the current ships pass by and the room between the ships and the shore is not all that great. As it is they are 1 rudder malfunction from a ship landing on the convention center steps.
Georgia's infatuation with keeping Savannah "current" with an inland port is bordering on massive waste. Yet more dredging, yet higher bridge, yet more TEU's to support.
I would say replace the Talmadge with a tunnel, but in 10 years GPA will want a 60 foot draft in the river and they find out the tunnel isn't deep enough. That is how insane this is getting.
I know this is an old post sorry for the late reply but I fail to see the issue of Georgia wanting to keep up with modernizing its port. That has to be a huge money maker for the state and these ships especially the next gen as the article points out are only going to keep getting bigger. At some point other ports around the world will be more than happy to keep them open to these massive new cargo ships and if Georgia doesn't keep theirs up they'll lose out.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 13, 2023, 06:29:46 PM
Quote from: edwaleni on September 20, 2018, 08:51:00 PM
Quote from: afguy on September 20, 2018, 02:07:25 PM
If GPA and GDOT do decide to replace the bridge, I wonder will it be similar to Charleston's Ravenel Bridge?
QuoteThe Georgia Ports Authority will work with the Georgia Department of Transportation and state legislators to examine the infrastructure and possible replacement of the Talmadge Bridge, GPA Executive Director Griff Lynch announced Thursday during the annual State of the Port address.
Work on the Savannah Harbor Expansion Project, which is halfway finished, is expected to be complete in 2021 and will bring larger ships.
Although no such vessels currently call on the U.S. East Coast, the port could handle some vessels up to 19,000 TEU capacity with a larger bridge.
http://www.savannahnow.com/news/20180920/georgia-ports-dot-to-study-possible-replacement-of-savannahs-talmadge-bridge
All I can do is roll my eyes. :spin:
And what happens when they come out with a 25k TEU ship, a 30k TEU?
The Savannah River already rises 3.5 feet at the ferry terminal when the current ships pass by and the room between the ships and the shore is not all that great. As it is they are 1 rudder malfunction from a ship landing on the convention center steps.
Georgia's infatuation with keeping Savannah "current" with an inland port is bordering on massive waste. Yet more dredging, yet higher bridge, yet more TEU's to support.
I would say replace the Talmadge with a tunnel, but in 10 years GPA will want a 60 foot draft in the river and they find out the tunnel isn't deep enough. That is how insane this is getting.
I know this is an old post sorry for the late reply but I fail to see the issue of Georgia wanting to keep up with modernizing its port. That has to be a huge money maker for the state and these ships especially the next gen as the article points out are only going to keep getting bigger. At some point other ports around the world will be more than happy to keep them open to these massive new cargo ships and if Georgia doesn't keep theirs up they'll lose out.
Since I am the one rolling the eyes, I can add context.
Since it is Georgia's "only" ocean port, they can do whatever they want, its their money to spend.
What I struggle with is the fact they continue to spend exhorbitant amounts to compensate for the fact their "port" is miles up a functionally obsolete river.
I get their motivations, Savannah is and has been a significant port of commerce for them since Lord Oglethorpe arrived with his workers. But when does good money chase bad?
They could have easily invested in building out a future sized port in the Ogeechee Basin, had much better ocean access and no inhibitors like bridges and narrow river channels.
It has the location near needed highways, rail access and proximity to the Savannah population. It is wide enough to handle mega TEU ships coming and going.
At this point it seems to be about pride, not rational business sense when you spend money to compensate for what is becoming a constrained port facility.
Oh, OK. That makes more sense. I don't know too much about the shipping industry so I don't know what is needed or where it makes the most sense. I just know they can add good advantages to an economy. Not really the most apples, apples comparison out there, but in Oklahoma Tulsa has an inland port, which gives it a big advantage over Oklahoma City. But even with that advantage, multiple companies have passed up, locating near their in favor of other areas like Austin or Kansas, but don't have any ports. Unless Kansas City has one I don't know about.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on December 13, 2023, 08:23:30 PM
Oh, OK. That makes more sense. I don't know too much about the shipping industry so I don't know what is needed or where it makes the most sense. I just know they can add good advantages to an economy. Not really the most apples, apples comparison out there, but in Oklahoma Tulsa has an inland port, which gives it a big advantage over Oklahoma City. But even with that advantage, multiple companies have passed up, locating near their in favor of other areas like Austin or Kansas, but don't have any ports. Unless Kansas City has one I don't know about.
I am familiar with the Tulsa Port of Catoosa on the Verdigris River. But they are about barging materials to and from, not so much TEU volumes from abroad.
Like grain, lumber, oil products and aggregates leaving and salt and metal piping coming in.
Cities like Savannah and say, Jacksonville Florida are turning what are really inland ports into high TEU port facilities. Jacksonville also just finished dredging to 45 feet and they have a 30 year old cable stayed bridge blocking access to the larger ships from reaching farther inland. At last word, they are pushing those ship types closer to the ocean, not raising bridges to bring them farther in. But they are spending $22 million to have a major power line raised so the new ships can get under and reach the port cranes and still have them hurricane proof.
As a Georgia resident, I can say that Savannah is one of the largest and fastest growing ports in North America, and a big money maker for the Georgia economy. If they end up constructing a higher bridge, in the end, the cost of that bridge will likely be more than offset with the greater business for the port. Also, keep in mind that by the time the studies and engineering are done and funding arranged, we are probably talking 8-10 years before ground could even be broken for a new bridge, which would not have the opening of the bridge until the early to mid 2030's, up to 40 years after the current bridge was constructed.
Hm. Wonder if a lot of that "growth" was due to the labor issues on the West Coast. Looks like Savannah is expanding the port, but, in my experience, there's a lot of "if you build it, they will come" kind of mentality in marine ports, including in the old traditional major ports. The potential is not always realized...
I work in transportation, and do a lot of work with GDOT and I do keep up with the industry. Part of the port of Savannah's recent growth is indeed the issues on the west coast, as California continues to commit slow economic suicide. But the port of Savannah has been growing for many years even before 2020. Look at the growth in containerized cargo, etc, plus Savannah has a good geographical location.
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on December 14, 2023, 08:38:01 AM
I work in transportation, and do a lot of work with GDOT and I do keep up with the industry. Part of the port of Savannah's recent growth is indeed the issues on the west coast, as California continues to commit slow economic suicide. But the port of Savannah has been growing for many years even before 2020. Look at the growth in containerized cargo, etc, plus Savannah has a good geographical location.
I concur. When the pandemic hit and certain (dumb) local ordinances in Long Beach caused a massive backup, shipping to east coast ports started to grow.
Port Canaveral
Jacksonville
Savannah
Charleston
Norfolk
All saw growth.
The "dumb" ordinance in Long Beach was the regulation banning the stacking of empty containers. So the shippers would leave the empties on their trailers and park them. In the post pandemic shipping boom, this caused a panic because there were no trailers to take away the incoming containers. It was discovered that many shippers were draying directly from the Port of Long Beach all the way to Idaho!!
Why the law? It was considered an eyesore and a storm in Seattle blew over an empty stack of containers several years prior.
So UP had to move many containers up to Salt Lake City for classification and drayage. Finally Gov. Newsom (after his office got deluged with calls) got Long Beach to waive the container ordinance and just like that trailers started becoming available.
With the combo of port congestion and railroad staffing issues, many shippers started pushing (more like redirecting) their containers to the east coast.
Now that is in a little bit of limbo. Why? Due to a chronic drought in Panama, Lake Gatun on the Panama Canal is at a record low and can't pass certain large ships.
A global supply chain is one thing, but its getting to the point where just one blip in some far off place causes the whole world to have indigestion.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 14, 2023, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on December 14, 2023, 08:38:01 AM
I work in transportation, and do a lot of work with GDOT and I do keep up with the industry. Part of the port of Savannah's recent growth is indeed the issues on the west coast, as California continues to commit slow economic suicide. But the port of Savannah has been growing for many years even before 2020. Look at the growth in containerized cargo, etc, plus Savannah has a good geographical location.
I concur. When the pandemic hit and certain (dumb) local ordinances in Long Beach caused a massive backup, shipping to east coast ports started to grow.
Port Canaveral
Jacksonville
Savannah
Charleston
Norfolk
All saw growth.
The "dumb" ordinance in Long Beach was the regulation banning the stacking of empty containers. So the shippers would leave the empties on their trailers and park them. In the post pandemic shipping boom, this caused a panic because there were no trailers to take away the incoming containers. It was discovered that many shippers were draying directly from the Port of Long Beach all the way to Idaho!!
Why the law? It was considered an eyesore and a storm in Seattle blew over an empty stack of containers several years prior.
So UP had to move many containers up to Salt Lake City for classification and drayage. Finally Gov. Newsom (after his office got deluged with calls) got Long Beach to waive the container ordinance and just like that trailers started becoming available.
With the combo of port congestion and railroad staffing issues, many shippers started pushing (more like redirecting) their containers to the east coast.
Now that is in a little bit of limbo. Why? Due to a chronic drought in Panama, Lake Gatun on the Panama Canal is at a record low and can't pass certain large ships.
A global supply chain is one thing, but its getting to the point where just one blip in some far off place causes the whole world to have indigestion.
Savannah was already the fourth busiest port in the US back when I lived in Georgia, and its importance has only grown. More and more businesses are moving to that region, and with so much of Georgia's coastline designated as parks, wildlife refuges or preserves, etc., it's not practical to put a major port like this anywhere else. Brunswick is an ocean port, but the relatively shallow bay and its location relative to Jekyll Island and other preservation areas makes it impractical as a "major" seaport. Add to that, the extensive rail, road, and warehousing infrastructure already built in Savannah to support the port there, plus the number of manufacturing and import/export businesses that have located there in the last 20 years because of the port's existence, and the expense of a new bridge vs. moving everything to Brunswick or Charleston is absolutely minimal. Think of it as $2 billion for a new bridge vs. $25 billion (probably more than that) to move everything else.
There are lots of "inland ports" in the US and all over the world, but we're really talking about seaports that are simply upriver. A real "inland port" is many miles from the ocean, such as Memphis, St Louis, or Cincinnati. So the fact that Savannah's port is a few miles up-river from the ocean isn't a valid criticism. Charleston, SC; Newark, NJ, Jacksonville, FL; Norfolk, VA; New Orleans, LA; Rotterdam; London; Hamburg; Kolkata are all a few miles (sometimes many miles) upriver. Shanghai is probably the busiest port in the world. It's very close to the sea but due to the relatively unprotected nature of the nearby bay most of its port facilities are still on the Yangtze River (sans a few small islands on the bay connected by an 18 mile long causway); the nearby major port of Nantong is a over 50 miles upstream.
Containerization is a relatively recent development and the size of container ships wasn't as much of a design consideration when the Talmadge Bridge was designed in the 1980s.
It wasn't until the late 1990s that container ships exceeded 5,000 TEU for the first time. It reached 15,000 TEU by 2007 and 24,000 TEU today. The economies of scale have grown very rapidly in a short period of time, coinciding with globalization and the growth of China as a manufacturing base for the world.
Apparently the Talmadge Bridge is fit for container ships up to 15,000 TEU, a threshold that wasn't exceeded until 10 years ago.
(https://logisticselearning.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Container-vessel-size-evolution-1.jpg)
Adding to Savannah's potential advantages as a port.............I don't know if this would be considered an asset, but I thought I might mention it. Even though the Georgia coast is considered hurricane prone, the shape of the coast line in that area is concave instead of convex. Savannah doesn't tend to get as many hurricanes as other seaports along the Atlantic such as Charleston, VA Beach and areas of Florida. Plus the location of the port approximately 20 miles inland provides more and better protection from potential storm surges.
Interesting to me that Savannah is a busier port than Charleston.
It also appears that there's a joint venture between Georgia and South Carolina for a deepwater port downstream of the current Port of Savannah, if that ends up happening, it might delay the need for a whole new bridge.
https://www.thejasperoceanterminal.com/
To all the defenders,
I am not questioning the importance of Savannah as a port, I am questioning the logic of trying to ram yet more larger ships up that narrow river and through low bridges.
You can spend only so much before you begin to see diminishing returns, based on what? That money could be used for Georgia to make a more functional port.
Savannah is not St Louis, Tulsa or Cincinnati. Those cities do not take container ships directly from Asia. Savannah takes and send ships internationally.
Apples and Oranges. They might have a place on their river called a "port", but it is not the same as the GPO spending multi-millions to keep the river dredged and the bridges high.
It's like taking a 1 lane road, putting the largest trucks on it. You can't widen it, and the clearance for said road has to be raised constantly for that 1 ship at a time port.
The road keeps cracking from the weight, but you spend billions fixing the road without any thought of doing it differently. Just keep making expensive fixes to keep things going.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on December 14, 2023, 12:48:41 PM
Interesting to me that Savannah is a busier port than Charleston.
At least a few reasons I can think of that this would be the case:
1) the coastline shape mentioned earlier that makes Savannah an inherently less hurricane-prone place.
2) Charleston is significantly further east. If the idea is to ship things to large inland cities, like say Atlanta, putting your port the farthest northwest it can go minimizes the amount of overland transport by truck or train.
3) Charleston's highway connectivity is not as good at least in terms of the interstate system. Savannah is right on I-95 to take you north-south or I-16 to take you west. Yeah Charleston has four lane US 17 but that doesn't sell like an interstate does. Plus it is notorious for beach tourist congestion in the summer.
The Port of Savannah also has a higher rate of exports. In most large U.S. container ports, the number of empty outbound containers is 2 or 3 times greater than loaded ones (exports). In Savannah the number of empty outbound containers is similar to the number of loaded containers.
This means that the Port of Savannah has a relatively high added value to the U.S. economy.
A current event is the low water level at the Panama Canal (more specifically, Gatun Lake). This means that the capacity is more limited and makes it worthwhile to send freight from East Asia to the U.S. east coast via the Suez Canal or around the Cape of Good Hope.
The Panama Canal expansion is also already outdated as it can handle container ships up to 14,500 TEU. As you can see in the graph above, the size of container ships jumped significantly in the 2010s, so an increasing number and share of container ships cannot pass through the expanded Panama Canal. Savannah is one of the prime destinations for such ships once they can pass under the Talmadge Bridge.
I keep waiting for the Welland Canal to be expanded... :D
Quote from: Rothman on December 18, 2023, 11:21:57 AM
I keep waiting for the Welland Canal to be expanded... :D
Doubt it. After Lake Michigan was devastated by Caspian mussels brought in through the ballast water of a Russian freighter, (it transited via the Volga-Don Canal) that was released in the Port of Chicago - Lake Calumet, the St Laurence Seaway and especially the State of Michigan, started restricting certain shipping types. If the Welland gets anything it will probably be maintenance updates.
Quote from: Chris on December 18, 2023, 11:08:43 AM
The Port of Savannah also has a higher rate of exports. In most large U.S. container ports, the number of empty outbound containers is 2 or 3 times greater than loaded ones (exports). In Savannah the number of empty outbound containers is similar to the number of loaded containers.
This means that the Port of Savannah has a relatively high added value to the U.S. economy.
A current event is the low water level at the Panama Canal (more specifically, Gatun Lake). This means that the capacity is more limited and makes it worthwhile to send freight from East Asia to the U.S. east coast via the Suez Canal or around the Cape of Good Hope.
The Panama Canal expansion is also already outdated as it can handle container ships up to 14,500 TEU. As you can see in the graph above, the size of container ships jumped significantly in the 2010s, so an increasing number and share of container ships cannot pass through the expanded Panama Canal. Savannah is one of the prime destinations for such ships once they can pass under the Talmadge Bridge.
One of Savannah's largest exports, actually isn't container based. Georgia is the largest exporter of "wood balls". They are pulp based balls that are fabbed in factories in SE Georgia and used to supplement coal fired power generation in Europe and other places. Due to the way the balls are formulated and "baked", they reduce sulphur emissions when mixed with boiler coal but provide a high amount of BTU's. It's not a 1 to 1 replacement for the BTU's of coal and a side effect of burning pulp is an increase in NOX, but the overall reduction in sulphur is huge.
Quote from: edwaleni on December 18, 2023, 09:19:18 PM
Quote from: Chris on December 18, 2023, 11:08:43 AM
The Port of Savannah also has a higher rate of exports. In most large U.S. container ports, the number of empty outbound containers is 2 or 3 times greater than loaded ones (exports). In Savannah the number of empty outbound containers is similar to the number of loaded containers.
This means that the Port of Savannah has a relatively high added value to the U.S. economy.
A current event is the low water level at the Panama Canal (more specifically, Gatun Lake). This means that the capacity is more limited and makes it worthwhile to send freight from East Asia to the U.S. east coast via the Suez Canal or around the Cape of Good Hope.
The Panama Canal expansion is also already outdated as it can handle container ships up to 14,500 TEU. As you can see in the graph above, the size of container ships jumped significantly in the 2010s, so an increasing number and share of container ships cannot pass through the expanded Panama Canal. Savannah is one of the prime destinations for such ships once they can pass under the Talmadge Bridge.
One of Savannah's largest exports, actually isn't container based. Georgia is the largest exporter of "wood balls". They are pulp based balls that are fabbed in factories in SE Georgia and used to supplement coal fired power generation in Europe and other places. Due to the way the balls are formulated and "baked", they reduce sulphur emissions when mixed with boiler coal but provide a high amount of BTU's. It's not a 1 to 1 replacement for the BTU's of coal and a side effect of burning pulp is an increase in NOX, but the overall reduction in sulphur is huge.
So that's why the Deep South looks more and more like a wasteland. The lumbering of those thin pines is taking its toll.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on December 14, 2023, 12:48:41 PM
Interesting to me that Savannah is a busier port than Charleston.
Quote from: US 89 on December 18, 2023, 10:18:45 AM
At least a few reasons I can think of that this would be the case:
1) the coastline shape mentioned earlier that makes Savannah an inherently less hurricane-prone place.
2) Charleston is significantly further east. If the idea is to ship things to large inland cities, like say Atlanta, putting your port the farthest northwest it can go minimizes the amount of overland transport by truck or train.
3) Charleston's highway connectivity is not as good at least in terms of the interstate system. Savannah is right on I-95 to take you north-south or I-16 to take you west. Yeah Charleston has four lane US 17 but that doesn't sell like an interstate does. Plus it is notorious for beach tourist congestion in the summer.
By and large, Savannah was a much more important railroad port city than Charleston (even though Charleston was a historically larger port both by volume and cargo value). Savannah was a mainline rail hub for both the Atlantic Coast Line and the Seaboard Air Line, plus the primary terminii for both the Central of Georgia (Southern) and the Savannah and Atlanta (also Southern). On the other hand, Charleston was a mainline hub along the Atlantic Coast Line, and was a secondary terminus for the Charleston and Western Carolina Railway (ACL) with Port Royal being the main terminus. Charleston was also a primary terminus for the Southern mainline to Spartanburg and Asheville; and also the much smaller South Carolina Rail Road (also Southern).
For the record, the Port of Savannah finally surpassed the Port of Charleston in 2013 (measured by cargo volume).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 19, 2023, 07:34:57 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on December 14, 2023, 12:48:41 PM
Interesting to me that Savannah is a busier port than Charleston.
Quote from: US 89 on December 18, 2023, 10:18:45 AM
At least a few reasons I can think of that this would be the case:
1) the coastline shape mentioned earlier that makes Savannah an inherently less hurricane-prone place.
2) Charleston is significantly further east. If the idea is to ship things to large inland cities, like say Atlanta, putting your port the farthest northwest it can go minimizes the amount of overland transport by truck or train.
3) Charleston's highway connectivity is not as good at least in terms of the interstate system. Savannah is right on I-95 to take you north-south or I-16 to take you west. Yeah Charleston has four lane US 17 but that doesn't sell like an interstate does. Plus it is notorious for beach tourist congestion in the summer.
By and large, Savannah was a much more important railroad port city than Charleston (even though Charleston was a historically larger port both by volume and cargo value). Savannah was a mainline rail hub for both the Atlantic Coast Line and the Seaboard Air Line, plus the primary terminii for both the Central of Georgia (Southern) and the Savannah and Atlanta (also Southern). On the other hand, Charleston was a mainline hub along the Atlantic Coast Line, and was a secondary terminus for the Charleston and Western Carolina Railway (ACL) with Port Royal being the main terminus. Charleston was also a primary terminus for the Southern mainline to Spartanburg and Asheville; and also the much smaller South Carolina Rail Road (also Southern).
For the record, the Port of Savannah finally surpassed the Port of Charleston in 2013 (measured by cargo volume).
I know one of the reasons why the Southern (and the Frisco, IIRC) wanted to get the CofG was to have (greater) control over the freight traffic in and out of Savannah.
The Frisco and the CofG were looking rather likely to merge, and the Frisco had even bought a controlling share (IIRC) of the CofG's stock in the lead-up to the potential merger. However, they failed to notify the ICC of this until they went to seek permission to merge, which, as I understand it, pissed-off the ICC so bad they gave the merger to the Southern instead.
im sorry for pointing this out, becaus it does need to be said:
i understand the need for ports, but why can't we just manufacture locally? whatever happened to localized manufacture of goods?
the global market put themselves in such a hardship knowing full well a major global disaster was coming, and did that for the last 30 years.
and shipping from asia/china is gonna decrease over the coming years, because mexico is poised to be the next driver of global goods, and china is having economic problems as well.
so building such a bridge might not be good long term, and cross country interstate and rail projects might be the new norm. i suspect thats why many states like arkansas and tennessee is working on their interstates now.
the global economy is shifting, and the bridge might not be needed long term if the majority of goods made goes from china to mexico.
i imagine the only thing georgia is doing right now is making sure the port stays relevant in the long term, perhaps to ship stuff from asia and the middle east to savanna.
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on January 25, 2024, 01:34:22 AM
im sorry for pointing this out, becaus it does need to be said:
i understand the need for ports, but why can't we just manufacture locally? whatever happened to localized manufacture of goods?
the global market put themselves in such a hardship knowing full well a major global disaster was coming, and did that for the last 30 years.
and shipping from asia/china is gonna decrease over the coming years, because mexico is poised to be the next driver of global goods, and china is having economic problems as well.
so building such a bridge might not be good long term, and cross country interstate and rail projects might be the new norm. i suspect thats why many states like arkansas and tennessee is working on their interstates now.
the global economy is shifting, and the bridge might not be needed long term if the majority of goods made goes from china to mexico.
i imagine the only thing georgia is doing right now is making sure the port stays relevant in the long term, perhaps to ship stuff from asia and the middle east to savanna.
The reason is simple. Offshore companies (some with extensive government subsidies, a few without) offered lower prices for goods even after shipping. After all of the US manufacturing capability closed up shop (some even sent their machines overseas), the prices crept up to the same or higher levels than the US produced goods had previously had been. ( a lot of the increase is in shipping cost) To fill the price point the internationally produced goods had initially filled were lower quality, less durable goods were produced. The Japanese are beat up because they cannot compete in the export business, at least Japanese customers have some loyalty to home built products.
By the way, the short-term solution is to raise the bridge using jacks and new bearings.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 26, 2024, 07:19:19 PM
Quote from: civilengineeringnerd on January 25, 2024, 01:34:22 AM
im sorry for pointing this out, becaus it does need to be said:
i understand the need for ports, but why can't we just manufacture locally? whatever happened to localized manufacture of goods?
the global market put themselves in such a hardship knowing full well a major global disaster was coming, and did that for the last 30 years.
and shipping from asia/china is gonna decrease over the coming years, because mexico is poised to be the next driver of global goods, and china is having economic problems as well.
so building such a bridge might not be good long term, and cross country interstate and rail projects might be the new norm. i suspect thats why many states like arkansas and tennessee is working on their interstates now.
the global economy is shifting, and the bridge might not be needed long term if the majority of goods made goes from china to mexico.
i imagine the only thing georgia is doing right now is making sure the port stays relevant in the long term, perhaps to ship stuff from asia and the middle east to savanna.
The reason is simple. Offshore companies (some with extensive government subsidies, a few without) offered lower prices for goods even after shipping. After all of the US manufacturing capability closed up shop (some even sent their machines overseas), the prices crept up to the same or higher levels than the US produced goods had previously had been. ( a lot of the increase is in shipping cost) To fill the price point the internationally produced goods had initially filled were lower quality, less durable goods were produced. The Japanese are beat up because they cannot compete in the export business, at least Japanese customers have some loyalty to home built products.
By the way, the short-term solution is to raise the bridge using jacks and new bearings.
japanese are kinda beat up, but as a avid enjoyer of their more finer arts, i have to say the japanese aren't that beat up when it comes to competition with hollywood and bollywood. not much beats anime.
the cars are also for the most part better than the american counterparts, aside from nissan. but i wouldn't say the japanese are beat up because they can't compete in the export business, as they export a lot of goods and culture to the west. they are suffering from low birth rates, overwork, and a elderly population, much like the rest of the world is experiencing. other industries im not sure about, but im pretty sure for the majority of japanese industry those 3 main problems are why japan is probably gonna go into a bad recession soon.
but im not sure how the price of goods from a international scale has much of a point post-covid. especially since the supply chain suffered a lot during the pandemic. i doubt the port of savanna is gonna remain a valid shipping port, but it could very well be a cheaper port to go to in the future. many companies are now looking to shipping products closer to home, and thats why i mentioned mexico would be a major producer, as theres now a lot of investment pouring into mexico rn.
it would not surprise me if mexico is seen overtaking china as a economic power. the only 2 things mexico has problems in that can hinder such progress, is crime and education. however i imagine that'll change in the coming years, as investment money pours into the country.