What are some scenarios in which you attempt to communicate with other drivers? I don't mean through your horn, blinker, or four way flashers, I mean physical communication like faces, waves, and other hand motions.
Also, do you ever notice other drivers trying to communicate with you, and under what circumstances? Do you find it helpful or harmful, necessary or unnecessary?
Have you ever seen physical communication between drivers, such as holding up your hand to signal "stop", prevent - or cause! - an accident?
Don't forget about flipping the bird.
Quote from: 1 on October 16, 2018, 09:22:29 AM
Don't forget about flipping the bird.
Yeah, that wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list.
Examples are fine too, but I'm mostly looking for applications, and whether said communication was successful and/or had wider-reaching implications.
Flashing my high-beams as a way of saying "go ahead" to other drivers works really well. I also use the corresponding turn signal to indicate I'm stopped waiting to take a parking space that's about to open up on the left or right side of the road, so don't stop behind me, just go around me, and whatever you do, don't get up on my ass so I can't back into the space. That one is less successful.
One scenario I ran into in England that I still can't figure out is when I was driving on a two-lane road, my side of the road was blocked by parked cars, and a car coming from the opposite direction would flash their high beams at me.
Downward hand-waving when attempting to slow drivers down due to an immediate hazard, usually in conjunction with four-way flashers and/or flashing headlights.
I once had to yell out the window of our car to a truck driver on I-44 in the middle of Saint Louis. He was driving a double-trailer for ODFL, and the rollup door on the rear trailer either never got closed or else had opened up while he was driving. At the tail end of the trailer, there were several empty wooden pallets standing on end behind his load, and they were falling out the back of the trailer one by one onto the highway. In the middle of urban freeway traffic. Right in front of me. As a pallet would hit pavement, it would start skittling back and forth at 60 mph, first left, then right, until it came to a stop somewhere on the highway. As much as I thoroughly enjoyed the game of dodge-pallet, I managed to catch up to the driver, motioned for him to roll down his window, and shouted across the lane, YOU'RE LOSING PALLETS! Oh my, you should have seen his face darken when he finally understood what I was saying. (He immediately exited the highway.)
Someone motioned me out into traffic from a driveway near a busy intersection. I got broadsided. I learned a valuable lesson that day.
I forgot the most common one for me. I attempt to tell the driver whenever I see they have a brake light burnt out or a low tire. If I can't get up alongside them at a light or whatever, then I'll often keep following them out of my way for a while to see if I can. At least half the time, the driver hasn't been aware of a burnt-out brake light, and almost nobody has been aware of a low tire.
Quote from: renegade on October 16, 2018, 12:44:50 PM
Someone motioned me out into traffic from a driveway near a busy intersection. I got broadsided. I learned a valuable lesson that day.
I stopped trusting the wave-out after reading someone on this forum (you?) talk about that. If I can't see, then I ain't going! Also, I almost never wave anyone out anymore, except into
my own lane.
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2018, 01:08:06 PM
I forgot the most common one for me. I attempt to tell the driver whenever I see they have a brake light burnt out or a low tire. If I can't get up alongside them at a light or whatever, then I'll often keep following them out of my way for a while to see if I can. At least half the time, the driver hasn't been aware of a burnt-out brake light, and almost nobody has been aware of a low tire.
Quote from: renegade on October 16, 2018, 12:44:50 PM
Someone motioned me out into traffic from a driveway near a busy intersection. I got broadsided. I learned a valuable lesson that day.
I stopped trusting the wave-out after reading someone on this forum (you?) talk about that. If I can't see, then I ain't going! Also, I almost never wave anyone out anymore, except into my own lane.
Exactly. I hit someone who was waved out on Western Avenue in Chicago. I was in the left turn lane, slowing for a red signal, when all of the sudden a vehicle pulled out from in front of two cars. Wound up tearing part of her bumper off - no airbag deployments though. The officers (there were two) looked at it and asked for our sides of the story. I told them mine, then she, hers. She mentioned being waved out by the two cars and going. The officer asking her then said, "lady, you know you're supposed to look first?"
Quote from: Brandon on October 16, 2018, 01:33:06 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2018, 01:08:06 PM
I forgot the most common one for me. I attempt to tell the driver whenever I see they have a brake light burnt out or a low tire. If I can't get up alongside them at a light or whatever, then I'll often keep following them out of my way for a while to see if I can. At least half the time, the driver hasn't been aware of a burnt-out brake light, and almost nobody has been aware of a low tire.
Quote from: renegade on October 16, 2018, 12:44:50 PM
Someone motioned me out into traffic from a driveway near a busy intersection. I got broadsided. I learned a valuable lesson that day.
I stopped trusting the wave-out after reading someone on this forum (you?) talk about that. If I can't see, then I ain't going! Also, I almost never wave anyone out anymore, except into my own lane.
Exactly. I hit someone who was waved out on Western Avenue in Chicago. I was in the left turn lane, slowing for a red signal, when all of the sudden a vehicle pulled out from in front of two cars. Wound up tearing part of her bumper off - no airbag deployments though. The officers (there were two) looked at it and asked for our sides of the story. I told them mine, then she, hers. She mentioned being waved out by the two cars and going. The officer asking her then said, "lady, you know you're supposed to look first?"
I was hit by someone doing the exact same thing you were doing. My excuse is that I was 16 or 17 at the time.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
One scenario I ran into in England that I still can't figure out is when I was driving on a two-lane road, my side of the road was blocked by parked cars, and a car coming from the opposite direction would flash their high beams at me.
This means "thanks for waiting for me."
I try to use my headlights to communicate at night, especially with truckers to indicate when it's clear to get back over or the like. I've observed over the years that they'll momentarily dim their lights to tell the trucker ahead that there's room to move over, so I try to do the same. Doesn't always work with other car drivers, but truckers know what it means and usually hit their flashers to acknowledge.
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on October 16, 2018, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
One scenario I ran into in England that I still can't figure out is when I was driving on a two-lane road, my side of the road was blocked by parked cars, and a car coming from the opposite direction would flash their high beams at me.
This means "thanks for waiting for me."
You mean "thanks in advance" ? Because this would happen as soon as we both approached the one-lane section.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 04:49:52 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on October 16, 2018, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
One scenario I ran into in England that I still can't figure out is when I was driving on a two-lane road, my side of the road was blocked by parked cars, and a car coming from the opposite direction would flash their high beams at me.
This means "thanks for waiting for me."
You mean "thanks in advance" ? Because this would happen as soon as we both approached the one-lane section.
Flashing your lights is not universally understood as "you go first."
There are places in the world where it means "I'm going first."
People used to turn their lights off then on at night if you noticed a speed trap on the other side of the highway to warn oncoming cars. Don't see that anymore.
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2018, 04:52:42 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 04:49:52 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on October 16, 2018, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
One scenario I ran into in England that I still can't figure out is when I was driving on a two-lane road, my side of the road was blocked by parked cars, and a car coming from the opposite direction would flash their high beams at me.
This means "thanks for waiting for me."
You mean "thanks in advance" ? Because this would happen as soon as we both approached the one-lane section.
Flashing your lights is not universally understood as "you go first."
There are places in the world where it means "I'm going first."
Thanks, this is good to know for the next time I drive in England.
In Honduras, I noticed there is a lot of road communication of flashing lights, honking, etc. (I wasn't driving though, just a passenger)
One that I did figure out, was a car coming at you in your lane flashing their high beams meant to get as far to the right as you can because I am passing someone on my side of the road and we are making this 2-lane road into a 3-lane road all at high speed.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 06:32:44 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2018, 04:52:42 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 04:49:52 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on October 16, 2018, 03:18:31 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 16, 2018, 09:46:24 AM
One scenario I ran into in England that I still can't figure out is when I was driving on a two-lane road, my side of the road was blocked by parked cars, and a car coming from the opposite direction would flash their high beams at me.
This means "thanks for waiting for me."
You mean "thanks in advance" ? Because this would happen as soon as we both approached the one-lane section.
Flashing your lights is not universally understood as "you go first."
There are places in the world where it means "I'm going first."
Thanks, this is good to know for the next time I drive in England.
I didn't mean to say that's necessarily what it means in England. I just meant there are
places where it means that. England may or may not be one of those places, I don't know.
What about four-way stops?
Drivers around here tend to wave you on at four way stops; if you both stop at once it's much more likely you'll get waved on then cut off.
Quote from: skluth on October 16, 2018, 05:27:03 PM
People used to turn their lights off then on at night if you noticed a speed trap on the other side of the highway to warn oncoming cars. Don't see that anymore.
I still do it, 95% Of people think you are just telling them their lights are off.
Quote from: webny99 on October 16, 2018, 09:53:42 PM
What about four-way stops?
Drivers around here tend to wave you on at four way stops; if you both stop at once it's much more likely you'll get waved on then cut off.
Here it's more of a "the best defense is a good offense" approach. Further complicating matters with urban four-way stops is the scenario where it may be your turn, but you can't go because a pedestrian is crossing in front of you.
Oh, and then there are the two-way stops where people assume it's a four-way stop and just drive in front of traffic that doesn't actually have to stop. I would T-bone so many idiots if I could.
Quote from: webny99 on October 16, 2018, 09:53:42 PM
What about four-way stops?
Drivers around here tend to wave you on at four way stops; if you both stop at once it's much more likely you'll get waved on then cut off.
If it's rightfully my turn to go, then I just go. I don't wait to be waved on.
If it's someone else's turn to go, then I stop and just glare at them till they figure it out.
If two or three other drivers are all trying to figure out whose turn it is to go when I pull up (probably for the last 2 minutes), then I just go and let them keep on figuring out whose turn it is. Ain't nobody go time fo dat!
So basically, I don't wave people ahead at four-way stops. Also, four-way stops are of the devil.
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2018, 12:52:11 PM
If it's someone else's turn to go, then I stop and just glare at them till they figure it out.
Unless... they wave
you on. What then?
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2018, 12:52:11 PM
So basically, I don't wave people ahead at four-way stops. Also, four-way stops are of the devil.
Impressive progression! :rofl:
I completely agree with that last bit - I'll take a roundabout
way ahead of a four way stop in almost any circumstance. Four way stops are especially annoying at night and low-volume times of day; if one road or the other can't be given full priority, at least find some way not to make
everyone on
both roads waste their time stopping!
Quote from: webny99 on October 17, 2018, 02:27:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2018, 12:52:11 PM
If it's someone else's turn to go, then I stop and just glare at them till they figure it out.
Unless... they wave you on. What then?
OK, in that case I'll usually go. Honestly, though, most people don't wave me on. They just sit there.
The same goes for uncontrolled intersections. If I'm approaching one at about the same time as another driver, and I'm on the right, then I'm going–even if I'm on the minor street. And if the other car is on the right, then I stop and wait for them to go–even if I'm on the major street. This messes with most drivers' minds, but it's the way it should be done. Quite common for me, as my house is between two uncontrolled intersections.
Generally, if I flash the headlights off then on again quickly, That means I see you and whatever you're trying to do, I'm allowing you to. This most often applies to trucks with their blinker on wanting to get over to my lane when I am already in the lane. If you get the high beams, it means you've done something stupid and/or illegal, and I don't care one iota about helping you out with anything.
And I agree about four way stops. If it's slow enough, then a two way stop should be fine so that half or more of the traffic doesn't need to stop; if it's a busy one, then there needs to be a traffic light.
Quote from: kphoger on October 17, 2018, 02:35:59 PM
The same goes for uncontrolled intersections. If I'm approaching one at about the same time as another driver, and I'm on the right, then I'm going–even if I'm on the minor street. And if the other car is on the right, then I stop and wait for them to go–even if I'm on the major street. This messes with most drivers' minds, but it's the way it should be done. Quite common for me, as my house is between two uncontrolled intersections.
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.
So, ever since I started this thread, I've been pondering how to recount this episode without disclosing the location. Some of you who have been to - or frequent - the Rochester area may figure it out anyways, but here goes:
In the general vicinity of my neighborhood, a four-lane road and a two-lane road intersect at a traffic signal. There are no turn lanes on any of the approaches - just two through lanes per direction on the main road, and one through lane per direction on the local street.
The other evening I was on the main four-lane road, heading in the non-peak direction, preparing to make a left turn onto the local street. Being familiar with the area, I know that cross-traffic, headed in the peak direction at rush hour, will fill the entire green light cycle, and therefore I wouldn't be able to proceed until the light turned yellow (or red). Across the intersection from me, there was also a line, to turn left in the other direction.
And behind me, there was a car that very foolishly pulled right up to my bumper, despite seeing my blinker and having the opportunity to proceed via the right lane*. So as soon as everyone else went past and the right lane was clear, I saw him in my mirror starting to pull out and go around me. And across from me, the car turning left started to pull out, seeing me in the left lane and a clear right lane. Instantly, envisioning an inevitable accident, I held up my hand to say "Stop!". The car behind me, unaware of this, pulled out and cleared the intersection. And then the car across from me pulled out and turned left, giving me a wave that said "thank you" as he passed in front of me. I was (a) relieved to have helped avert an accident, and (b) empowered to have been trusted by another driver.
So there you have one story of successful communication between drivers. I'm yet to be convinced that attempting to physically communicate is always appropriate, but there are definitely cases where valuable information can be conveyed.
*I might clarify - the road widens from two lanes to four (or narrows from four to two, however you look at it) several hundred feet past the intersection. So the said car was approaching in the single lane, got to choose between two available lanes, and chose the left one, clueless as to the fact that I was stopped there and would be for the entire light cycle.
:banghead:
I use the wave as both an apology and motioning someone to go at a stop sign. If I'm impatient or in traffic (usually both) I will also wave more angrily if the car in front of me stops the instance the light turns yellow, especially if it's a long yellow and we both could have made it through. (Yes, I know you're not supposed to do that, but my area is known for having long yellows and most people in traffic go through them if they're the car at the intersection when the light starts to turn. I always seem to get caught behind someone who either doesn't know that you're supposed to go through the intersection if you're at the light when it turns, instead of slamming on brakes, or someone who takes a full minute to register that the light has turned green and backs up everyone behind them even more.)
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.
Seriously?? Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live?? Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right. But yeah,
this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/RaA394AiQuv) is right by my house, for example. And just down the street from there is
this uncontrolled beauty (https://goo.gl/maps/6j81d6AxbRM2).
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 01:40:38 PMSeriously?? Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??
Yes. Every single intersection is, at minimum, a two-way yield.
Quote from: abefroman329 on October 19, 2018, 04:06:54 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 01:40:38 PMSeriously?? Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live??
Yes. Every single intersection is, at minimum, a two-way yield.
But your profile says you're in Chicago. It only took me a few tries to locate
an uncontrolled intersection in your area (https://goo.gl/maps/cGQDqgE7FYp).
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.
Seriously?? Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live?? Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right. But yeah, this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/RaA394AiQuv) is right by my house, for example. And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty (https://goo.gl/maps/6j81d6AxbRM2).
Wow! Yeah, I have never seen a totally uncontrolled four-way intersection. If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Now, I have seen a few uncontrolled three-ways, especially at the outlet of cul-de-sacs, but there is still usually a stop or yield sign on the less-important street.
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.
Seriously?? Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live?? Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right. But yeah, this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/RaA394AiQuv) is right by my house, for example. And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty (https://goo.gl/maps/6j81d6AxbRM2).
Woah concrete streets. Those cribs were built in the 50-60's eh.
iPhone
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Was this not a part of your driver's education??? How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?
Quote from: Tonytone on October 20, 2018, 11:52:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.
Seriously?? Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live?? Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right. But yeah, this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/RaA394AiQuv) is right by my house, for example. And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty (https://goo.gl/maps/6j81d6AxbRM2).
Woah concrete streets. Those cribs were built in the 50-60's eh.
My house was built in 1951. But that has nothing to do with the material used for the street. The street in the first picture just had a re-paving done last year in concrete.
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Was this not a part of your driver's education[emoji47] How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?
Quote from: Tonytone on October 20, 2018, 11:52:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 19, 2018, 01:40:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 18, 2018, 10:07:40 AM
I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "uncontrolled". I don't think I've ever seen an intersection with no form of control at all. If there's not a stop sign, there's always at least a yield sign on one of the approaches.
Seriously?? Every single intersection, no matter how small the streets, have a stop or yield sign where you live?? Wow, I can't seem to find an uncontrolled intersection by randomly looking around Rochester on GSV, so maybe you're right. But yeah, this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/RaA394AiQuv) is right by my house, for example. And just down the street from there is this uncontrolled beauty (https://goo.gl/maps/6j81d6AxbRM2).
Woah concrete streets. Those cribs were built in the 50-60's eh.
My house was built in 1951. But that has nothing to do with the material used for the street. The street in the first picture just had a re-paving done last year in concrete.
I believe if we go back to the 50's, they were using concrete more in residential neighborhoods & Driveways. I believe because it looked nicer & sleeker. We all know every neighborhood that was being built at the time was the "American Dream" home.
& Also. Have you ever seen an uncontrolled intersection & a major road!!!!
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 01:50:19 PM
& Also. Have you ever seen an uncontrolled intersection & a major road!!!!
Yes, all over Mexico. Taking turns at intersections is so ingrained in Mexican drivers' minds, that an uncontrolled intersection at a busy downtown street corner actually functions better than other options.
Here (https://goo.gl/maps/wDdhjYUY4mr) is a busy corner in a town I go to every year that was
converted to an uncontrolled intersection several years ago. It works better now than it did before they removed traffic control. And
here (https://goo.gl/maps/TNhnD3HKpFA2) is an uncontrolled intersection on a state highway at the edge of town.
Quote from: Tonytone on October 17, 2018, 01:13:12 AM
Quote from: skluth on October 16, 2018, 05:27:03 PM
People used to turn their lights off then on at night if you noticed a speed trap on the other side of the highway to warn oncoming cars. Don't see that anymore.
I still do it, 95% Of people think you are just telling them their lights are off.
I still see this occasionally, and sometimes I do it myself. It's usually flashing the high beams over turning the lights off, though. Generally off/on means "your lights are off". The danger with flashing the beams for speed traps is inadvertently doing it to an oncoming police car or one that is is front of you going the same way. I know of a few instances of people getting pulled over for this. And of course, as mentioned elsewhere here, flashing the beams also is commonly used for "you go first" and to let truckers know they have enough clearance to pull back into your lane in front of you.
I've occasionally thought about getting a small dry erase board and keeping it next to me to write out quick messages: "Lights On!"..."Flat Tire!"..."Dragging Pedestrian!"..."Pterodactyl on Roof!"....various profanities. You know...the typical stuff.
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Was this not a part of your driver's education??? How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?
Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in
very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).
Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?
Quote from: Roadrunner75 on October 22, 2018, 08:21:56 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 17, 2018, 01:13:12 AM
Quote from: skluth on October 16, 2018, 05:27:03 PM
People used to turn their lights off then on at night if you noticed a speed trap on the other side of the highway to warn oncoming cars. Don't see that anymore.
I still do it, 95% Of people think you are just telling them their lights are off.
I still see this occasionally, and sometimes I do it myself. It's usually flashing the high beams over turning the lights off, though. Generally off/on means "your lights are off". The danger with flashing the beams for speed traps is inadvertently doing it to an oncoming police car or one that is is front of you going the same way. I know of a few instances of people getting pulled over for this. And of course, as mentioned elsewhere here, flashing the beams also is commonly used for "you go first" and to let truckers know they have enough clearance to pull back into your lane in front of you.
I've occasionally thought about getting a small dry erase board and keeping it next to me to write out quick messages: "Lights On!"..."Flat Tire!"..."Dragging Pedestrian!"..."Pterodactyl on Roof!"....various profanities. You know...the typical stuff.
Thats a good idea, I always wondered how to reply. Its sad to see people dont know what "flashing lights" means anymore. Has mankind lost their traditional values ? Sad you cant save people from tickets anymore cause they are to busy driving their cars with the DRL on.
iPhone
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2018, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Was this not a part of your driver's education??? How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?
Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).
Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?
How would you know the street you're approaching is more or less significant than the one you're on? What if both are state roads, or both are county roads?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 22, 2018, 09:03:41 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2018, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Was this not a part of your driver's education??? How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?
Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).
Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?
How would you know the street you're approaching is more or less significant than the one you're on? What if both are state roads, or both are county roads?
Width, presence or absence of center yellow line, businesses vs. houses, etc.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.
It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.
Quote from: 1 on October 22, 2018, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.
It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.
Yes but the Chances of side impact on this road is very high. People speed through here, it doesn't matter if cars are waiting or not.
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2018, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Was this not a part of your driver's education??? How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?
Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).
Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?
I give up. Whereas it only took about three or four tries to find an uncontrolled four-way intersection in the Chicago area, I couldn't find a single one after 15 tries in various towns and cities of New York. Mind blown.
Uncontrolled intersections should are just like four-way stops, except without the stopping. They're basically four-way yields. Whoever gets there first goes first; if it's a close call, then the car on the right goes first.
jeffandnicole is/are right: Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion. If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns. Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard. And even if
you know the right answer, why should you assume the
other driver does?
T intersections have an implied yield sign for the terminating road. This is typically codified into state law.
Quote from: 1 on October 22, 2018, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.
It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.
There's also a stop sign.
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:31:47 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 22, 2018, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.
It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.
There's also a stop sign.
Damn you're right, but hey, stop signs are Yield on the East Coast!!
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:32:52 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:31:47 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 22, 2018, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.
It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.
There's also a stop sign.
Damn you're right, but hey, stop signs are Yield on the East Coast!!
And yield signs are traffic control.
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:33:51 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:32:52 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:31:47 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 22, 2018, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:19:49 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6427012,-75.6577508,3a,60y,305.76h,74.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRQhp9dIBrcYqb9Ju-FuJew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
A uncontrolled intersection in Bear, De On a very major road.
It's a three-way intersection, so there should be no confusion.
There's also a stop sign.
Damn you're right, but hey, stop signs are Yield on the East Coast!!
And yield signs are traffic control.
What is a go sign then?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 22, 2018, 09:03:41 PM
How would you know the street you're approaching is more or less significant than the one you're on? What if both are state roads, or both are county roads?
My assumption is that most uncontrolled four-way intersections in the continental United States are between two relatively low-volume residential streets, with the more significant of the two being whichever one outlets to the main network - or if both do, then whichever leads to the busier/more significant outlet. In other words, I don't envision high volumes at this type of intersection, at least in the US, anyways.
Quote from: Tonytone on October 22, 2018, 09:35:23 PM
What is a go sign then?
Traffic lights count as traffic control no matter what color they are - or what they tell you to do - so the same should hold for physical signs. But first you need to find a bunch of go signs in widespread use somewhere.
Then we'll decide whether they count as traffic control. :-P
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:30:40 PM
I give up. Whereas it only took about three or four tries to find an uncontrolled four-way intersection in the Chicago area, I couldn't find a single one after 15 tries in various towns and cities of New York. Mind blown.
That's awesome; I can't even stop smiling!
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:30:40 PMUncontrolled intersections should are just like four-way stops, except without the stopping. They're basically four-way yields. Whoever gets there first goes first; if it's a close call, then the car on the right goes first.
Except that if there actually
were yield signs on all the approaches, everybody would stop and sit there, thinking the other people had the right-of-way. So I guess you just slow down and roll through if no one is coming - which is kind of cool, actually. I can't believe I've never seen this in action; maybe I'll have to keep looking for one in my area!
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:30:40 PMjeffandnicole is/are right: Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion. If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns. Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard. And even if you know the right answer, why should you assume the other driver does?
Again, I don't disagree, but I assume traffic unfamiliar with the area is usually <10% of all traffic; people who live in the neighborhood should know. Plus - on a semi-related note - a lot of new neighborhoods in NY seem to be built - perhaps intentionally? - with
only three way intersections. Like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1638766,-77.4526616,16.47z). And this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1426821,-77.7896302,16.82z). And this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2469793,-77.4326358,16.3z) (the one to the left of NY 250).
I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:30:40 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 22, 2018, 08:27:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 01:46:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 20, 2018, 05:22:25 PM
If I was approaching a cross street and didn't have a stop sign, I wouldn't even consider slowing down, knowing cross traffic must have to stop or yield.
Was this not a part of your driver's education??? How can you have a license and not know what to do at an uncontrolled intersection?
Actually, no, it wasn't - not that I recall, anyways. There really isn't a need for drivers in NYS to know how to handle uncontrolled intersections - I can't find a single example of an uncontrolled four-way, and uncontrolled three-ways are always in very low volume areas, where it's obvious that you yield if you're on the street that ends (and only at T-junctions, never Y-junctions).
Without actually knowing how drivers in other states handle uncontrolled intersections - other than from what you've said - my assumption would be that traffic on the more significant street has right-of-way, unless the streets are equally significant, in which case it's basically yield to traffic approaching on your right?
I give up. Whereas it only took about three or four tries to find an uncontrolled four-way intersection in the Chicago area, I couldn't find a single one after 15 tries in various towns and cities of New York. Mind blown.
Uncontrolled intersections should are just like four-way stops, except without the stopping. They're basically four-way yields. Whoever gets there first goes first; if it's a close call, then the car on the right goes first.
jeffandnicole is/are right: Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion. If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns. Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard. And even if you know the right answer, why should you assume the other driver does?
T intersections have an implied yield sign for the terminating road. This is typically codified into state law.
Up until just six months ago or so, there was an uncontrolled intersection on Dumbarton in Delmar, NY, I believe, but then they threw up stop signs everywhere. Totally unnecessary, but it's a soccer mom neighborhood.
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
Again, I don't disagree, but I assume traffic unfamiliar with the area is usually <10% of all traffic; people who live in the neighborhood should know. Plus - on a semi-related note - a lot of new neighborhoods in NY seem to be built - perhaps intentionally? - with only three way intersections. Like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1638766,-77.4526616,16.47z). And this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1426821,-77.7896302,16.82z). And this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2469793,-77.4326358,16.3z) (the one to the left of NY 250).
I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!
The only time this should be an issue is if a stop sign is knocked down or otherwise missing from an intersection. While it should be replaced in short order, there's going to be a short period of time between when the sign is missing and when the police or replacement sign gets to the intersection.
Of course, coming from NJ, we have this literally written into our drivers manual regarding traffic circles that history dictates who has the right of way, especially as many older circles don't have any traffic control devices (Yield or Stop signs). And it may not even be the highest-classification roadway, nor does it mean it's the same in both directions. At a circle near me, the majority of traffic uses NJ 47 to the south, and US 130 to the north. So, US 130 South has priority into the circle, yet US 130 North does NOT have priority into the circle!
From PDF Page 70: https://www.state.nj.us/mvc/pdf/license/drivermanual.pdf
Quote
TRAFFIC CIRCLE
There are no set rules for driving into, around and out of a traffic circle in New Jersey. Common sense and caution must prevail at all times. In most cases, the circle's historically established traffic flow pattern dictates who has the right-of-way. If a major highway flows into and through the circle, it usually dominates the traffic flow pattern and commands the right-of-way. Traffic control signs, such as stop or yield signs, at the entrances to the circle also govern which motorist has the right-of-way. Never enter a traffic circle without checking all signs and determining the intentions of the motorists already moving within the circle.
Whenever a motorist is in doubt concerning who has the right-of-way in a circle, he/she should exercise extreme caution and remember the basic rule governing any uncontrolled intersection: The vehicle to the left yields the right-of-way to the vehicle approaching from the right.
I also never agreed with that last line, because it means those in the circle must yield to those entering the circle, which is the opposite of how they are supposed to work.
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 22, 2018, 09:30:40 PMjeffandnicole is/are right: Which road is the more or less significant one shouldn't be the criterion. If you're unfamiliar with the area, then you don't necessarily know traffic patterns. Painted lines may or may not clue you in, but they also might be misleading in that regard. And even if you know the right answer, why should you assume the other driver does?
Again, I don't disagree, but I assume traffic unfamiliar with the area is usually <10% of all traffic; people who live in the neighborhood should know. Plus - on a semi-related note - a lot of new neighborhoods in NY seem to be built - perhaps intentionally? - with only three way intersections. Like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1638766,-77.4526616,16.47z). And this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1426821,-77.7896302,16.82z). And this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2469793,-77.4326358,16.3z) (the one to the left of NY 250).
I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!
Let's say 5% of the traffic is from out of the area. Do you want 5% of the drivers to have to judge for themselves which street is supposed to stop? If they're wrong just 20% of the time, that's 1% of the drivers incorrectly judging priority. Even if the street only has one vehicle every two minutes (daytime), that's still about 500 vehicles per day. 1% of that is five people a day incorrectly judging priority. With those odds, you should expect a car crash there about once a month.
But here's the bigger issue: uncontrolled intersections are usually found in places where
neither street is more significant than the other. Otherwise, of course, there would probably be yield or stop signs controlling them. In my neighborhood example, the street I live on doesn't have striping and neither do the two cross streets All of them have driveways. All of them lead to at least one arterial road. A lot of people in town seem to just sort of
assume that my street has the right of way because it's
longer, but that's a pretty iffy determining factor. Besides, friends and relatives coming into town for a birthday party aren't going to know that kind of thing anyway.
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
Except that if there actually were yield signs on all the approaches, everybody would stop and sit there, thinking the other people had the right-of-way. So I guess you just slow down and roll through if no one is coming - which is kind of cool, actually.
That's exactly how it works. Most times I'm leaving the house, I don't have to stop because traffic is pretty light at those intersections. Even when a car is crossing, I usually only have to slow down a bit.
(Sometimes, everybody just stops and sits there even
without yield signs, because they still think the other people have the right of way.)
Quote from: kphoger on October 16, 2018, 12:34:55 PM
Downward hand-waving when attempting to slow drivers down due to an immediate hazard, usually in conjunction with four-way flashers and/or flashing headlights.
I once had to yell out the window of our car to a truck driver on I-44 in the middle of Saint Louis. He was driving a double-trailer for ODFL, and the rollup door on the rear trailer either never got closed or else had opened up while he was driving. At the tail end of the trailer, there were several empty wooden pallets standing on end behind his load, and they were falling out the back of the trailer one by one onto the highway. In the middle of urban freeway traffic. Right in front of me. As a pallet would hit pavement, it would start skittling back and forth at 60 mph, first left, then right, until it came to a stop somewhere on the highway. As much as I thoroughly enjoyed the game of dodge-pallet, I managed to catch up to the driver, motioned for him to roll down his window, and shouted across the lane, YOU'RE LOSING PALLETS! Oh my, you should have seen his face darken when he finally understood what I was saying. (He immediately exited the highway.)
I was driving on DE 301 one time & a 18 Wheeler had a Tire out & it was sparking from him going 55 MPH. I tried to speed up & wave him down, flash my lights, honk. But nothing worked, My turn came & he flew by me still doing the same speed. I don't know if he knew his tire was burnt out & he was trying to reach the truck stop ahead. Or if he really didn't know. Hope he found out.
iPhone
AFIAK there are no uncontrolled intersections on any public roadways in CT. Parking lots are the only time you really encounter them and I doubt anyone here knows how they work.
Quote from: Tonytone on October 23, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
I was driving on DE 301
No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2018, 12:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 23, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
I was driving on DE 301
No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.
Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.
iPhone
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2018, 12:25:04 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 24, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2018, 12:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 23, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
I was driving on DE 301
No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.
Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.
iPhone
US 301.
US 301 DE 301. I think we know that the highway isn't open yet.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on October 24, 2018, 12:28:59 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2018, 12:25:04 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 24, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2018, 12:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 23, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
I was driving on DE 301
No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.
Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.
US 301.
US 301 DE 301. I think we know that the highway isn't open yet.
Just admit you erroneously referred the highway as DE-301 and be done with it. We all make mistakes.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on October 24, 2018, 12:05:47 PM
AFIAK there are no uncontrolled intersections on any public roadways in CT. Parking lots are the only time you really encounter them and I doubt anyone here knows how they work.
It's exceedingly hard for me to even find a four-way intersection in CT that isn't paved, striped thoroughfares. Maybe if NY and CT had more intersections that
looked like this (https://goo.gl/maps/V9hubsUpsLR2), uncontrolled intersections would be more common.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on October 24, 2018, 12:05:47 PM
Parking lots are the only time you really encounter them and I doubt anyone here knows how they work.
From my understanding, the way insurance determines right-of-way for uncontrolled intersections in parking lot is that the thoroughfare has right-of-way over the feeder; that is, the road that either puts you onto the street or the road that puts you on the street after the least number of turns has priority over the lane feeding into that.
It's intuitive enough that drivers pretty much universally follow this despite being unaware of the rule.
Quote from: kphoger on October 23, 2018, 01:26:01 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 23, 2018, 08:52:40 AM
I guess maybe I'm trying to apply the logic used around here - traffic on the less significant street should have to stop/yield. While the local jurisdiction/township is perfectly capable of deciding that, and installing appropriate signage, in the absence of their doing so, I can see how we might not want every single driver deciding on the fly. They'd tend to pick the street they're on by default, and road rage and/or disaster would certainly ensue!
Let's say 5% of the traffic is from out of the area. Do you want 5% of the drivers to have to judge for themselves which street is supposed to stop? If they're wrong just 20% of the time, that's 1% of the drivers incorrectly judging priority. Even if the street only has one vehicle every two minutes (daytime), that's still about 500 vehicles per day. 1% of that is five people a day incorrectly judging priority. With those odds, you should expect a car crash there about once a month.
Yep, given the above, I think there is agreement on this point. I concede significance of the street should not determine who has the right-of-way - unless there's going to be some form of traffic control.
Quote from: kphoger on October 24, 2018, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 24, 2018, 12:28:59 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2018, 12:25:04 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 24, 2018, 12:24:24 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 24, 2018, 12:12:23 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on October 23, 2018, 02:14:53 PM
I was driving on DE 301
No, you were not, unless there's a sign error I don't know of.
Excuse me? I was driving on the old two lane 301.
US 301.
US 301 DE 301. I think we know that the highway isn't open yet.
Just admit you erroneously referred the highway as DE-301 and be done with it. We all make mistakes.
You're right. But such a ignorant answer was not required.
iPhone