I thought of this after looking at the I-10/I-12 threads on here a few days ago...situations where one route is bypassed for over 100 miles (even though I-12 itself in Louisiana doesn't quite reach that mark, and the parallel routes of I-70 vs. South Lawrence Traffcway/I-435/I-470 in the Kansas City area also fall short of this mark)
Examples that come to mind:
I-5 vs. Route 99 (former US 99) between Wheeler Ridge and Stockton. Using the southern I-5/Route 99 junction and the respective routes' interchanges with Route 4 as the endpoints, I-5 is 252 miles while 99 (going through Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto) is 257 miles.
I-55 vs. I-57. From I-57's south terminus to Canalport Avenue and the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago, I-55 going through St. Louis and Springfield is 437 miles, while I-57 is 391 miles.
I-35 vs. Kansas Turnpike (I-335/I-70) between Emporia and the west I-35/I-70 junction in Kansas City, MO. 112 miles via I-35, 114 miles via the Turnpike.
US 23 vs. I-75 between the Toledo and Flint areas: 108 miles via US 23, 135 miles via I-75.
i-840 is a useless bypass i-40
I-91/CT 15/I-84/I-90/I-290/I-495 in CT and MA to bypass I-95 from New Haven to just short of the NH border. The inland route is about 175 miles, while staying on I-95 adds about 20 miles, plus traffic through downtown Providence and along the 128 corridor.
AZ 85 to I-10 as a Phoenix bypass.
I-74 and I-39 combine to make a Long Distance bypass of Chicago, to/from points South, North, or West. Just doesn't work too well for points East
Quote from: TheStranger on December 26, 2018, 06:13:39 PM
I thought of this after looking at the I-10/I-12 threads on here a few days ago...situations where one route is bypassed for over 100 miles (even though I-12 itself in Louisiana doesn't quite reach that mark, and the parallel routes of I-70 vs. South Lawrence Traffcway/I-435/I-470 in the Kansas City area also fall short of this mark)
Examples that come to mind:
I-5 vs. Route 99 (former US 99) between Wheeler Ridge and Stockton. Using the southern I-5/Route 99 junction and the respective routes' interchanges with Route 4 as the endpoints, I-5 is 252 miles while 99 (going through Bakersfield, Fresno, Modesto) is 257 miles.
I-55 vs. I-57. From I-57's south terminus to Canalport Avenue and the Dan Ryan Expressway in Chicago, I-55 going through St. Louis and Springfield is 437 miles, while I-57 is 391 miles.
I-35 vs. Kansas Turnpike (I-335/I-70) between Emporia and the west I-35/I-70 junction in Kansas City, MO. 112 miles via I-35, 114 miles via the Turnpike.
US 23 vs. I-75 between the Toledo and Flint areas: 108 miles via US 23, 135 miles via I-75.
Unless you are counting roadway in Ohio US-23 is 90 miles and I-75 is 115 miles. Toledo's city limits go up to the state line.
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 26, 2018, 07:28:28 PM
Unless you are counting roadway in Ohio US-23 is 90 miles and I-75 is 115 miles. Toledo's city limits go up to the state line.
I was actually counting from the southern US 23/I-75 junction in Perrysburg (Google doesn't show 23 as entering Toledo itself at all, including on the segment along I-475).
I-69 and Ontario Highway 402 between Marshall MI and London ON as a bypass for I-94 in Michigan (to Detroit) and Highway 401 in Ontario (to Windsor) for traffic going to or from Toronto, Chicago, or Indianapolis.
I-81 provides a super-bypass of the Northeast, I-95 and I-85, with 'spur connectors' to the major cities/regions, segments of I-90 (Boston), I-88 (Albany), I-84 (Hartford), I-80 (NYC), I-78 (NYC), I-76 (Philadelphia), I-70 (Baltimore), I-66 (D.C.) and I-64 (Richmond and Norfolk).
Quote from: Beltway on December 26, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
I-81 provides a super-bypass of the Northeast, I-95 and I-85, with 'spur connectors' to the major cities/regions, segments of I-90 (Boston), I-88 (Albany), I-84 (Hartford), I-80 (NYC), I-78 (NYC), I-76 (Philadelphia), I-70 (Baltimore), I-66 (D.C.) and I-64 (Richmond and Norfolk).
Though with the truck traffic, how much time are you actually saving?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 26, 2018, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: Beltway on December 26, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
I-81 provides a super-bypass of the Northeast, I-95 and I-85, with 'spur connectors' to the major cities/regions, segments of I-90 (Boston), I-88 (Albany), I-84 (Hartford), I-80 (NYC), I-78 (NYC), I-76 (Philadelphia), I-70 (Baltimore), I-66 (D.C.) and I-64 (Richmond and Norfolk).
Though with the truck traffic, how much time are you actually saving?
It would be slower going thru all those metros. Also keep in mind how the Interstate system was laid out, and how traffic moved for the first 30 to 40 years; it is only the last 15 or 20 years that I-81 has been getting congested.
Some of these don't really function as bypasses, nor were they meant to.
Tennessee's I-840, mentioned above, is one of the most outstanding examples (of those which only bypass one metro area). The frustrating thing about I-840 is that it has created needless congestion on I-40, I-65, and I-24 where it meets them. I-65 at I-840 is especially problematic - I-65 loses a southbound lane at I-840 when it should be gaining one. It was an incredible lack of forethought to combine a lane drop with a huge influx of through traffic. Talk about solving one problem and creating another! :banghead:
Quote from: TheStranger on December 26, 2018, 07:36:59 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 26, 2018, 07:28:28 PM
Unless you are counting roadway in Ohio US-23 is 90 miles and I-75 is 115 miles. Toledo's city limits go up to the state line.
I was actually counting from the southern US 23/I-75 junction in Perrysburg (Google doesn't show 23 as entering Toledo itself at all, including on the segment along I-475).
Ok that makes sense the distances looked off to me. US-23 use to enter Toledo on what is today SR-51. I think it's currently the western border of Toledo in a few areas but Toledo doesn't go west of it.
Quote from: webny99 on December 26, 2018, 09:26:49 PM
Tennessee's I-840, mentioned above, is one of the most outstanding examples (of those which only bypass one metro area). The frustrating thing about I-840 is that it has created needless congestion on I-40, I-65, and I-24 where it meets them. I-65 at I-840 is especially problematic - I-65 loses a southbound lane at I-840 when it should be gaining one. It was an incredible lack of forethought to combine a lane drop with a huge influx of through traffic. Talk about solving one problem and creating another! :banghead:
I wonder if you've been there long enough to see congestion patterns.
Quote from: NE2 on December 27, 2018, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 26, 2018, 09:26:49 PM
Tennessee's I-840, mentioned above, is one of the most outstanding examples (of those which only bypass one metro area). The frustrating thing about I-840 is that it has created needless congestion on I-40, I-65, and I-24 where it meets them. I-65 at I-840 is especially problematic - I-65 loses a southbound lane at I-840 when it should be gaining one. It was an incredible lack of forethought to combine a lane drop with a huge influx of through traffic. Talk about solving one problem and creating another! :banghead:
I wonder if you've been there long enough to see congestion patterns.
I-840 is a very odd duck indeed. It essentially serves two purposes -- one is simply a Nashville outer bypass for I-40; the other connects regional exurbs. There's not a lot of long-distance traffic that can utilize I-840 efficiently aside from the aforementioned I-40 alternate; Knoxville traffic heading to Huntsville or Birmingham would generally pass through Chattanooga and use either US 72 west or I-59 southwest to reach their destinations; a I-40/840/65 routing would be well out of the way unless there was an interim stop in the Nashville area (and
that's a pretty specific itinerary). Now -- if the old Saturn plant in Spring Hill were still functioning at its 1990's level, there might be a rationale for 6-laning I-65 down at least to TN 396 -- but since GM's only got 3K workers there right now on multiple shifts, the congestion, if any, would be minimal and sporadic. And there's little in the way of long-distance patterns from either westward I-40 or I-24 in general that would utilize I-65 south of I-840. If anything, the growth of Franklin north of the I-840 junction (primarily electronic manufacturing/distribution) would call for a 6+ lane I-65
north of the interchange, with traffic dispersing onto I-840 (principally east, where most of the suburban growth is occurring) toward outlying residential areas. And unless the destination is specifically Columbia or Spring Hill, eastbound I-40 traffic from Memphis and Jackson won't turn south on I-65 from I-840 (or I-40, for that matter!); the 4-laned US 72 and I-22 address any Memphis-AL traffic.
Often, DOT's tend to shrink lanes on freeways radiating outward from a metro center once a bypass has been reached; the I-65/840 situation is no different. Unless there's a concerted effort to 6-lane all of I-65 in TN (like in KY), it'll probably remain "as is" for the foreseeable future. It's pretty clear from the 65/840 interchange design (as well as the two junctions with I-40) that TNDOT designed the 840 route as a full loop, serving
both I-40
and I-65 as a functional bypass. Without the northern half, the existing bypass has limited utility, so its contribution to regional congestion is questionable -- and if it takes a significant number of through trucks off I-40 (or 440) through town, it's fulfilling its current main duty!
Between Bakersfield and San Bernardino there is one route via I-5 and I-210 that skirts Los Angeles and a suburban bypass in the Mojave Desert via; I-15, CA 138, CA 14 and CA 58. Bypassing Los Angeles in the Mojave Desert is actually a slightly shorter route and certainly is way faster the majority of time considering traffic congestion.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2018, 11:20:09 PM
Between Bakersfield and San Bernardino there is one route via I-5 and I-210 that skirts Los Angeles and a suburban bypass in the Mojave Desert via; I-15, CA 138, CA 14 and CA 58. Bypassing Los Angeles in the Mojave Desert is actually a slightly shorter route and certainly is way faster the majority of time considering traffic congestion.
Alternately, one can stay on I-15 a few miles farther and head up US 395 to CA 58 and then head west to Mojave and Bakersfield. The problem with CA 138 is the undulating 2-lane portion just east of the LA/SBDO county line; very little line of sight and morons who try passing even with a double-yellow line! Also speed traps in Pearblossom and Littlerock, not to mention the slog through central Palmdale. Not quite as bad a slog on US 395 through west Victorville and Adelanto (I'll be down there in a few days myself) -- and there are a few passing lanes available between Adelanto and Kramer Jct. Besides, you can check out progress (or possibly lack thereof; I'll report a couple of days after New Years') on the 58 Kramer bypass (maybe they've actually started grading by now!).
Quote from: NE2 on December 27, 2018, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 26, 2018, 09:26:49 PM
Tennessee's I-840, mentioned above, is one of the most outstanding examples (of those which only bypass one metro area). The frustrating thing about I-840 is that it has created needless congestion on I-40, I-65, and I-24 where it meets them. I-65 at I-840 is especially problematic - I-65 loses a southbound lane at I-840 when it should be gaining one. It was an incredible lack of forethought to combine a lane drop with a huge influx of through traffic. Talk about solving one problem and creating another! :banghead:
I wonder if you've been there long enough to see congestion patterns.
I haven't, as you know --- but it is very obvious to anyone who browses Google Maps (with live traffic) with any frequency that there is recurring congestion on I-65 south of I-840. I-840 contributes to (if not causes) the problem by dumping traffic onto I-65 right after the lane drop.
TNDOT's 2017 counts show an AADT of 76,500 for that stretch of I-65: well into six-lane territory. Not at all surprising that slowdowns are so common.
Quote from: sparker on December 27, 2018, 09:55:45 PM
Often, DOT's tend to shrink lanes on freeways radiating outward from a metro center once a bypass has been reached; the I-65/840 situation is no different.
True; and I find that both baffling and frustrating. Bypasses are meant to contribute to the
outbound traffic flow, not the
inbound. I would expect the number of lanes to
increase, even if only temporarily, beyond the bypass.
Quote from: sparker on December 28, 2018, 03:29:23 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2018, 11:20:09 PM
Between Bakersfield and San Bernardino there is one route via I-5 and I-210 that skirts Los Angeles and a suburban bypass in the Mojave Desert via; I-15, CA 138, CA 14 and CA 58. Bypassing Los Angeles in the Mojave Desert is actually a slightly shorter route and certainly is way faster the majority of time considering traffic congestion.
Alternately, one can stay on I-15 a few miles farther and head up US 395 to CA 58 and then head west to Mojave and Bakersfield. The problem with CA 138 is the undulating 2-lane portion just east of the LA/SBDO county line; very little line of sight and morons who try passing even with a double-yellow line! Also speed traps in Pearblossom and Littlerock, not to mention the slog through central Palmdale. Not quite as bad a slog on US 395 through west Victorville and Adelanto (I'll be down there in a few days myself) -- and there are a few passing lanes available between Adelanto and Kramer Jct. Besides, you can check out progress (or possibly lack thereof; I'll report a couple of days after New Years') on the 58 Kramer bypass (maybe they've actually started grading by now!).
I used to take US 395 route but Kramer Junction south to I-15 is something I've come to loathe over the years. Regardless of whatever happens with the Kramer Junction bypass US 395 ought to fully fleshed out to a four lane road as well.
To bypass I-35 through Austin and most of San Antonio:
TX-130 → I-10 → I-410
142 miles
fixed
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 26, 2018, 07:16:56 PM
I-74 and I-39 combine to make a Long Distance bypass of Chicago, to/from points South, North, or West. Just doesn't work too well for points East
I've used this to travel from Cincinnati to the Wisconsin Dells area. I know it adds miles, but I am convinced it saved time and aggravation, especially on Thanksgiving weekend.
Quote from: TheStranger on December 26, 2018, 06:13:39 PM
I thought of this after looking at the I-10/I-12 threads on here a few days ago...situations where one route is bypassed for over 100 miles (even though I-12 itself in Louisiana doesn't quite reach that mark, and the parallel routes of I-70 vs. South Lawrence Traffcway/I-435/I-470 in the Kansas City area also fall short of this mark)
Examples that come to mind:
//snip//
US 23 vs. I-75 between the Toledo and Flint areas: 108 miles via US 23, 135 miles via I-75.
This is an artifact from the original layout of the US Highways in Michigan. 3 highways entered MI from the Toledo area - 23, 24 and 25. 25 went up through Detroit and to Port Huron. 24 skirted the western edge of Detroit (as it still does, although it's all built up around that area now) to Pontiac. 23 continued more or less due north to Flint and Bay City, then near the Lake Huron shore (as it still does today).
In addition, US 10 went northwest out of Detroit to Pontiac, Flint, Saginaw and then curved westward to Ludington and the ferry.
25 got replaced by I-75 and I-94. 10 got replaced by I-75 to Bay City. So 23 on it's original route (although moved to a freeway) does tend to serve as a bypass for through traffic from Ohio to "up north", but that wasn't the original intention.
Before I-75 was built US-23 use to be current day M-13 north of Saginaw. It's pretty close to it's original route in just about every area between Toledo and Flint, the old route runs right next to the freeway for a lot of it and is actually a good alternate route when the freeway gets backed up. US-10 made sense before I-75 but not since I-75 has been built. US-25 got east of US-23 and US-24 runs north and south but I don't know any other number to give US-24 at this point and it does run east and west after Toledo. Detroit is only served by two US routes (US-12 and US-24) and both end in the metro area. US-25 was deleted in Ohio as well.
US-23 can be considered a western bypass of Detroit. I-69 and I-94 meet twice in Michigan and it is actually a lot less hassle to use I-69 between Marshall/Battle Creek area and Port Huron so I-69 can also be considered a bypass of Detroit although that's not really what it's intent is.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 28, 2018, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: sparker on December 28, 2018, 03:29:23 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 27, 2018, 11:20:09 PM
Between Bakersfield and San Bernardino there is one route via I-5 and I-210 that skirts Los Angeles and a suburban bypass in the Mojave Desert via; I-15, CA 138, CA 14 and CA 58. Bypassing Los Angeles in the Mojave Desert is actually a slightly shorter route and certainly is way faster the majority of time considering traffic congestion.
Alternately, one can stay on I-15 a few miles farther and head up US 395 to CA 58 and then head west to Mojave and Bakersfield. The problem with CA 138 is the undulating 2-lane portion just east of the LA/SBDO county line; very little line of sight and morons who try passing even with a double-yellow line! Also speed traps in Pearblossom and Littlerock, not to mention the slog through central Palmdale. Not quite as bad a slog on US 395 through west Victorville and Adelanto (I'll be down there in a few days myself) -- and there are a few passing lanes available between Adelanto and Kramer Jct. Besides, you can check out progress (or possibly lack thereof; I'll report a couple of days after New Years') on the 58 Kramer bypass (maybe they've actually started grading by now!).
I used to take US 395 route but Kramer Junction south to I-15 is something I've come to loathe over the years. Regardless of whatever happens with the Kramer Junction bypass US 395 ought to fully fleshed out to a four lane road as well.
Absolutely positively concur in spades! Interestingly, a freeway extension of the "E-220" (turns out that was the MPO file number) tolled facility connecting US 395 to I-15 north of Victorville, with an expressway extension bypass for CA 18 out past Apple Valley, was planned "quasi-independently" of the toll/multimodal facility from Adelanto to Palmdale to serve as a "cutoff" from US 395 over to I-15, which at least would have provided a freeway alternative to slogging down 395 through west Victorville (an area growing by leaps and bounds for the last decade and a half), leaving only the truck-ridden rural/open desert segment north to Kramer to be upgraded. But in usual CA fashion, a project is touted but 6-7 years later (the peak of chatter was around 2011) seems to be nothing more than a footnote. It was to more or less "thread the needle" between the old George AFB (now an industrial park and private airfield) and the prison complex south of Air Base Parkway. But none of my friends in the area have heard much about this since 2013 or so; and it certainly hasn't made the STIP pages! Still, if you can get past a few trucks on the hills south of Kramer, US 395 is doable if a bit harrowing; but IMO no more than parts of CA 138. But damn it, 4-laning 395 from Adelanto to Kramer is long overdue; since once out of town there aren't any major crossing roads, grade separations could easily wait -- but
would like to see 395 on an eastern Kramer bypass with a cloverleaf/CD with CA 58. No word about whether the traffic light there will be eliminated once the 58 bypass is in service -- that'd help a lot -- even if they moved the lights to the 58 diamond.
Quote from: frankenroad on December 28, 2018, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 26, 2018, 07:16:56 PM
I-74 and I-39 combine to make a Long Distance bypass of Chicago, to/from points South, North, or West. Just doesn't work too well for points East
I've used this to travel from Cincinnati to the Wisconsin Dells area. I know it adds miles, but I am convinced it saved time and aggravation, especially on Thanksgiving weekend.
Living in Southern IL now, even if I were driving to Milwaukee or Green Bay, depending on the time of day I'm hitting Northern IL, I would seriously consider I-57->I-74->I-39->I-43 vs I-57->I-94 or I-57->I-294->I-94. To Madison or the Dells, no question I'm going up I-74/I-39, unless I just want to take US 51 right up the middle of the state from Southern IL until it combines with I-39 in Bloomington/Normal (its a fun drive, and it breaks up the endless Illinois flat Interstate miles of I-57)
Any further NW, tho, like Twin Cities and beyond, I am going to use the Avenue of the Saints
I don't remember if I read it here or elsewhere, but supposedly IDOT was a bit surprised when I-39 started becoming a decently traveled Long Distance Freight and Bypass Route - apparently that was not the intent when originally built? There was an image posted on one of these boards a few months back of Truck Traffic volumes - there is a pattern of higher than normal truck traffic going I-57->I-74->I-39 to skirt Chicagoland
On another idea/joke...Had I-41 been given an extension of I-65 into IL and WI instead of the I-41 mess...I-74->I-39->I-43 could have been given an (even)3di for I-65 - a REALLY long outer bypass of Chicago, from Indy to Milwaukee. Would have to be I-665, as I believe that is the only unused (even65) in IN
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 29, 2018, 12:12:21 AM
Living in Southern IL now, even if I were driving to Milwaukee or Green Bay, depending on the time of day I'm hitting Northern IL, I would seriously consider I-57->I-74->I-39->I-43 vs I-57->I-94 or I-57->I-294->I-94. To Madison or the Dells, no question I'm going up I-74/I-39, unless I just want to take US 51 right up the middle of the state from Southern IL until it combines with I-39 in Bloomington/Normal (its a fun drive, and it breaks up the endless Illinois flat Interstate miles of I-57)
Any further NW, tho, like Twin Cities and beyond, I am going to use the Avenue of the Saints
When I lived in southern Illinois, I found it to be a decently pleasant drive to get off at Salem and take US-51 north from Sandoval–and that was for trips to/from the Twin Cities. Google Maps suggests it's just a couple of minutes faster than taking Ave of the Saints from where I lived, but nowadays I would seriously consider taking that route (it was still being finished up back then). Depending on what town you live in, it might even be the hands-down best route.
But, taking Ave of the Saints, you still need to figure out Saint Louis.
My preferred Saint Louis bypasses:
Chicago to KC – I-72 from Springfield > US-54 to Kingdom City – shaves off 28 miles
Chicago to Joplin – I-72 from Springfield > US-54 to Macks Creek > MO-73 to Buffalo > US-65 to Springfield – adds 14 miles
Carbondale to Joplin – Go south instead of north, using US-60 to Springfield (MO) – shaves 10 miles off the IL-127 route through Nashville, avoids the lettered routes of any decent alternative through Missouri
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 26, 2018, 08:13:25 PM
Quote from: Beltway on December 26, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
I-81 provides a super-bypass of the Northeast, I-95 and I-85, with 'spur connectors' to the major cities/regions, segments of I-90 (Boston), I-88 (Albany), I-84 (Hartford), I-80 (NYC), I-78 (NYC), I-76 (Philadelphia), I-70 (Baltimore), I-66 (D.C.) and I-64 (Richmond and Norfolk).
Though with the truck traffic, how much time are you actually saving?
I rode a good portion of I-81 this past weekend, and a lot of trucks & out of state motorists heading home from the holidays, and even with all the traffic combined, it always stayed above 70 MPH. I-95 on the other hand can be a nightmare (even the rural areas), and passes through Baltimore and Washington D.C. without any good bypasses. Once you hit New Jersey though, that really ends when you hop on the turnpike and it's smooth sailing from there bypassing Wilmington, Philadelphia, and other urban areas. Until some massive DC & Baltimore bypass (which will never happen) is built, I-81 is a good alternative for north-south traffic wanting a mainly rural route without a lot of local traffic.
Tennessee is always going to be a bottleneck on its north-south interstates. I-65 is the most heavily-traveled-by-truck route in Kentucky, and most of that traffic is not going to enter or exit at the new TN 109 interchange. And the cost to widen I-75 across Pine Mountain at Jellico, south of the state line, would be astronomical. I don't know if I-840/TN 109 will make a decent bypass of I-65 in Nashville or not, but the US 27/TN 111/US 127/various Kentucky routes corridor will end up being a good bypass of Knoxville.
Quote from: hbelkinsI don't know if I-840/TN 109 will make a decent bypass of I-65 in Nashville or not
Not if TDOT doesn't make TN 109 at least limited-access. Still way too many driveways along the exiting 4-lane segments of TN 109, plus they force you to turn to get on/off the Gallatin bypass at the south end.
why wasn't there a full beltway around nashville? they have a patchwork of 440 and 155 instead.
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 03, 2019, 05:49:35 PM
why wasn't there a full beltway around nashville? they have a patchwork of 440 and 355 instead.
Funding issues. They want one though, but if built would probably be a toll road. Also the ramps on either end of I-840 are designed for extension.
Quote from: sprjus4 on January 03, 2019, 05:56:47 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on January 03, 2019, 05:49:35 PM
why wasn't there a full beltway around nashville? they have a patchwork of 440 and 355 instead.
Funding issues. They want one though, but if built would probably be a toll road. Also the ramps on either end of I-840 are designed for extension.
i thought 840 was officially dead? they want a beltway closer to 155 and 440?
Quote from: sparker on December 27, 2018, 09:55:45 PM
Quote from: NE2 on December 27, 2018, 07:31:05 PM
Quote from: webny99 on December 26, 2018, 09:26:49 PM
Tennessee's I-840, mentioned above, is one of the most outstanding examples (of those which only bypass one metro area). The frustrating thing about I-840 is that it has created needless congestion on I-40, I-65, and I-24 where it meets them. I-65 at I-840 is especially problematic - I-65 loses a southbound lane at I-840 when it should be gaining one. It was an incredible lack of forethought to combine a lane drop with a huge influx of through traffic. Talk about solving one problem and creating another! :banghead:
I wonder if you've been there long enough to see congestion patterns.
I-840 is a very odd duck indeed. It essentially serves two purposes -- one is simply a Nashville outer bypass for I-40; the other connects regional exurbs. There's not a lot of long-distance traffic that can utilize I-840 efficiently aside from the aforementioned I-40 alternate; Knoxville traffic heading to Huntsville or Birmingham would generally pass through Chattanooga and use either US 72 west or I-59 southwest to reach their destinations; a I-40/840/65 routing would be well out of the way unless there was an interim stop in the Nashville area (and that's a pretty specific itinerary). Now -- if the old Saturn plant in Spring Hill were still functioning at its 1990's level, there might be a rationale for 6-laning I-65 down at least to TN 396 -- but since GM's only got 3K workers there right now on multiple shifts, the congestion, if any, would be minimal and sporadic. And there's little in the way of long-distance patterns from either westward I-40 or I-24 in general that would utilize I-65 south of I-840. If anything, the growth of Franklin north of the I-840 junction (primarily electronic manufacturing/distribution) would call for a 6+ lane I-65 north of the interchange, with traffic dispersing onto I-840 (principally east, where most of the suburban growth is occurring) toward outlying residential areas. And unless the destination is specifically Columbia or Spring Hill, eastbound I-40 traffic from Memphis and Jackson won't turn south on I-65 from I-840 (or I-40, for that matter!); the 4-laned US 72 and I-22 address any Memphis-AL traffic.
Often, DOT's tend to shrink lanes on freeways radiating outward from a metro center once a bypass has been reached; the I-65/840 situation is no different. Unless there's a concerted effort to 6-lane all of I-65 in TN (like in KY), it'll probably remain "as is" for the foreseeable future. It's pretty clear from the 65/840 interchange design (as well as the two junctions with I-40) that TNDOT designed the 840 route as a full loop, serving both I-40 and I-65 as a functional bypass. Without the northern half, the existing bypass has limited utility, so its contribution to regional congestion is questionable -- and if it takes a significant number of through trucks off I-40 (or 440) through town, it's fulfilling its current main duty!
On my trip back from the Dallas-Fort Worth Metro Area in July 2015, our ride (a bus) took Interstate 840 (formerly TN 840) in what I gathered to be a very efficient route. We were headed east on I-40 toward Nashville, and we took I-840 east, crossed I-65, then moved onto I-24 Eastbound toward Chattanooga. This appeared to be much quicker and much more efficient than taking I-40 directly into Nashville (or even using I-440) then getting onto I-24 there to head southeast. Of course, as has been noted, not every traffic movement utilizing Interstate 840 is as efficient or likely as this one. But I noticed this to be a very useful routing using I-840, since traffic probably would have likely been much worse closer to downtown Nashville.
Interstate 840 is a beltway (*currently a partial beltway) so monstrous in size, which may be one reason why it is going to be very hard to get the northern half of the beltway completed (if it ever is). I'd imagine that if fully completed, I-840 (TN) would surpass I-275 (KY-IN-OH)(Cincinnati) as the largest beltway in the United States. I can't imagine how expensive it would be. It would be incredibly interesting to see, though.
Although not
very necessary, as noted, I could see it as being a little bit useful to widen I-65 south from I-840 just down to the limited-access TN 396. It could alleviate any possible congestion at the I-65/I-840 interchange that webny99 is referring to. It is definitely a low priority, but I could see benefits that it might add, even if small. But more appropriately, if growth and sprawl in the southern Nashville Metro Area continues at the rapid rate that it has been at lately (including Spring Hill's population skyrocketing from around 7,000 to around 29,000 between the 2000 and 2010 censuses, and being estimated at around 40,000 as of late), then a larger-scale widening may be in store for that part of Interstate 65 anyway in the long-term.
But regarding other long distance bypasses, I feel that I have heard that many truckers use US 27 to bypass the Turnpike from central Florida to the Miami area. Much of US 27 there is multi-lane, IIRC, so it could indeed be an effective bypass if one wants to avoid the tolls.
The one time I have been to the Jacksonville area (the northeast part of the metro area specifically), my family took I-75 South (to Macon) to I-16 East to I-95 South. Another route, which Google Maps marks as the quickest (from Macon to Jacksonville), is I-75 South to I-10 East. However, the bypass I am getting at is that I believe an effective bypass route could be made by utilizing GA 19 and US 23 in southeast Georgia (and it would be around the same length of time, according to Google Maps).
I've heard that some truckers take US 27 north through the state of Georgia as an alternative to Interstate 75, but I don't know how common that actually is, especially when considering the fact that US 27 still has a few "spots" (one of them being the
very tricky proposed bypass of Summerville through the mountains) throughout the state that would need to be upgraded before US 27 truly meets the complete standard as a legitimate efficient bypass of I-75 through the entire state.
Quote from: adventurernumber1 on January 03, 2019, 11:27:38 PM
Interstate 840 is a beltway (*currently a partial beltway) so monstrous in size, which may be one reason why it is going to be very hard to get the northern half of the beltway completed (if it ever is). I'd imagine that if fully completed, I-840 (TN) would surpass I-275 (KY-IN-OH)(Cincinnati) as the largest beltway in the United States. I can't imagine how expensive it would be. It would be incredibly interesting to see, though.
Completing the beltway would surpass the size of I-275 definitely, probably would be about 160 miles long (that's over 2 hours of driving!), but when TX-99 (Grand Parkway) outer beltway toll road in Houston, Texas is completed, it would be 184 miles long (3 hours to drive!). The Texas project is more likely in the future because being a toll road, it funds itself. A 30 mile extension is currently planned to be built and opened by 2022. It would only be a super-two in rural locations, with 10 ft shoulders (the standard Texas rural road design), and a 70 - 75 MPH speed limit, but limited-access on a right of way for four lanes. That project alone would bring the beltway to more than 100 miles long, and the longest in the United States.
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
It's always amused me that I-90 is not the through route, and it makes an awkward turn in Wyoming. Anyone know why they didn't just extend I-25 into Montana and make I-90 use SD 34 and US 212?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 04, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
It's always amused me that I-90 is not the through route, and it makes an awkward turn in Wyoming. Anyone know why they didn't just extend I-25 into Montana and make I-90 use SD 34 and US 212?
More miles of road would have had to have been built due to I-25 being longer.
Quote from: 1 on January 04, 2019, 10:09:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 04, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
It's always amused me that I-90 is not the through route, and it makes an awkward turn in Wyoming. Anyone know why they didn't just extend I-25 into Montana and make I-90 use SD 34 and US 212?
More miles of road would have had to have been built due to I-25 being longer.
And also because the routing into Wyoming serves a lot more population. The US 87/US 16 alignment that got built passes through Sheridan and Gillette in Wyoming (both of which have micropolitan areas), whereas a US 212 routing would only pass through Broadus, MT. Not to mention the fact that US 212 passes through the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, which would be one more hoop for planners to jump through.
I swear we've discussed this before.
EDIT: yes, we have (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21376.msg2269113#msg2269113)...and the same person, no less.
Quote from: US 89 on January 04, 2019, 11:43:00 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 04, 2019, 10:09:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 04, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
It's always amused me that I-90 is not the through route, and it makes an awkward turn in Wyoming. Anyone know why they didn't just extend I-25 into Montana and make I-90 use SD 34 and US 212?
More miles of road would have had to have been built due to I-25 being longer.
And also because the routing into Wyoming serves a lot more population. The US 87/US 16 alignment that got built passes through Sheridan and Gillette in Wyoming (both of which have micropolitan areas), whereas a US 212 routing would only pass through Broadus, MT. Not to mention the fact that US 212 passes through the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, which would be one more hoop for planners to jump through.
I swear we've discussed this before.
EDIT: yes, we have (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21376.msg2269113#msg2269113)...and the same person, no less.
Well he had a break and came back so I'll give him a pass. RGT 2.0 apparently forgot what version 1.0 discussed here. At least he's consistent.
Quote from: US 89 on January 04, 2019, 11:43:00 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 04, 2019, 10:09:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 04, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
It's always amused me that I-90 is not the through route, and it makes an awkward turn in Wyoming. Anyone know why they didn't just extend I-25 into Montana and make I-90 use SD 34 and US 212?
More miles of road would have had to have been built due to I-25 being longer.
And also because the routing into Wyoming serves a lot more population. The US 87/US 16 alignment that got built passes through Sheridan and Gillette in Wyoming (both of which have micropolitan areas), whereas a US 212 routing would only pass through Broadus, MT. Not to mention the fact that US 212 passes through the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, which would be one more hoop for planners to jump through.
I swear we've discussed this before.
EDIT: yes, we have (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21376.msg2269113#msg2269113)...and the same person, no less.
Oh :banghead: :banghead:. That was over a year ago, can't remember that long in detail!
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
The route is also 55 miles shorter.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 05, 2019, 10:35:49 AM
Quote from: US 89 on January 04, 2019, 11:43:00 PM
Quote from: 1 on January 04, 2019, 10:09:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 04, 2019, 10:06:07 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
It's always amused me that I-90 is not the through route, and it makes an awkward turn in Wyoming. Anyone know why they didn't just extend I-25 into Montana and make I-90 use SD 34 and US 212?
More miles of road would have had to have been built due to I-25 being longer.
And also because the routing into Wyoming serves a lot more population. The US 87/US 16 alignment that got built passes through Sheridan and Gillette in Wyoming (both of which have micropolitan areas), whereas a US 212 routing would only pass through Broadus, MT. Not to mention the fact that US 212 passes through the Northern Cheyenne Indian Reservation, which would be one more hoop for planners to jump through.
I swear we've discussed this before.
EDIT: yes, we have (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21376.msg2269113#msg2269113)...and the same person, no less.
Oh :banghead: :banghead:. That was over a year ago, can't remember that long in detail!
Avoiding lengthy segments through Native American sovereign territory -- which more often than not requires protracted negotiation, design compromises, and "quid pro quo" arrangements regarding compensation (which given all considerations is quite justified) seems to be part and parcel of corridor planning in the western states -- and is one of many reasons (cost being the primary issue) that a northern extension of I-17, long tossed about in this forum, hasn't happened and is likely not to occur. Aside from wishing to serve the Sheridan and Gillette areas in WY (the latter prescient due to its later stature as the functional center of the Powder River coal region), avoidance of multiple Native American jurisdictions -- as a US 212-based I-90 and just about any iteration of a potential I-17 would necessitate -- is probably the most prudent approach. There's already too many divides and conflicts in today's sociopolitical arena; best to avoid fomenting any more.
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2019, 12:02:20 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
The route is also 55 miles shorter.
...which is exactly what I said.
Quote from: cl94 on January 05, 2019, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on January 05, 2019, 12:02:20 PM
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
The route is also 55 miles shorter.
...which is exactly what I said.
I think he saw "faster" and assumed you were talking about time, not distance.
Quote from: cl94 on January 04, 2019, 09:25:34 PM
Between Crow Agency, MT (east of Billings) and Whitewood, SD (west of Rapid City), it's 12 minutes and 56 miles faster to use US 212 and SD 34 instead of I-90.
Even Big Rig Steve used this route last time he went through the area. However it was nightime after he passed Broadus MT, and it was a severe PITA to search the MT/WY and WY/SD borders along that route.
Quote from: ilpt4u on December 26, 2018, 07:16:56 PM
I-74 and I-39 combine to make a Long Distance bypass of Chicago, to/from points South, North, or West. Just doesn't work too well for points East
From WI:
I-39
I-74
I-465
I-70 to points East Coast.
I-70, I-71 to Cleveland
Saves toll money too! :-D