Seeing that in recent years several Interstate Business loops have gone by the way side, can the same be said about U.S. or State Highway business loops and their usefulness? Usually a business route designation is applied to the old alignment of a state or U.S. highway after a new bypass or other improved roadway is constructed. Some instances of these routes use the Business Loop moniker, even though there really are no businesses or business district that the original alignment still serves. So standard operating procedure means business route = old alignment (and in NC alternate route = old alignment outside of built-up areas).
Will there be a time when Business Loops in general are just dropped? In Dothan, Alabama, all three U.S. highways (84, 231, 431) travel the bypass loop around the city. The business routes remain along the original alignment through the older downtown, yet all of the businesses that travelers would ever want are found on the multi-lane bypass. So is the Business Route moniker here even necessary anymore?
While wanting to acknowledge that these routes remain in the state system, could a new bannered concept be applied? Might the routes become unsigned state routes? Maybe a new concept of route classification would be devised (think of those old City U.S. highways)?
Even more so, since Business Loop Interstates are slowly fading from existence, likely because most traveler services can be found at freeway interchanges, GPS adds more utility for the traveler to find needed services in lieu of following a designated business loop.
So will all or some of these factors hasten the retiring of the current standard of business route as we know it?
I think there is still a need for business routes in some cases.
The Carson City Bypass is a good example of this. The new freeway for US 395/US 50/future I-580 traverses the eastern edges of the city, through mostly neighborhood areas of town. With the alignment and interchanges where they are, it is highly unlikely that new business districts will develop around the freeway except at locations where they already exist. The majority of the city's businesses are on Carson Street and William Street (the old highways). Local businesses were already concerned about the diverted through traffic before the route was built, which may have prompted NDOT to apply for business designations. US 395 Business has been signed along Carson Street since the first phase of the bypass opened (AASHTO granted a US 50 Business designation for William St, but NDOT has elected not to sign it at present).
With that said, I can definitely see the point with some business designations. For example, the I-80 Business Loop in Verdi, NV travels along old US 40 (SR 425) and some frontage roads adjacent to the interstate at exit 2. The only major businesses along the loop are those on the frontage roads. The business designation along the 3+ miles of SR 425 isn't really helpful and could probably be eliminated (it's not signed well off the interstate anyway).
Perhaps the old "City" designation would be better for some of these routes. Not sure if AASHTO would go for this...I read that they really only favor business, bypass, alternate and temporary banners nowadays.
Quote from: roadfro on February 18, 2010, 08:18:55 PMPerhaps the old "City" designation would be better for some of these routes. Not sure if AASHTO would go for this...I read that they really only favor business, bypass, alternate and temporary banners nowadays.
And even then, the use of temporary banners seems to have diminished greatly compared to about 20 years ago. It could simply be that states that are currently building new routes choose not to do that anymore. (Otherwise, there would be plenty of TEMP I-69, I-73, I-49, etc. designations abound.)
To get back on to the main point of this thread, Michigan is still gung-ho on the business route concept, although a couple have been removed in recent years (BUS US-31 in Niles [although the signs have yet to be changed out for M-139, which supplanted it], BUS US-41 in Marquette), with talk of removing a few others (BUS M-32 in Hillman very shortly if it hasn't already been turned back, and Niles's other two business routes, with BUS US-12 the more likely to be removed if MDOT and the Niles government ever decide on the transfer of a few blocks of a downtown street). The Interstate and U.S. business routes seem very unlikely to be turned back unless a city absolutely wants control of those streets, which was the case in Holland. However, as of right now, there's a moratorium on any new jurisdictional transfers other than those already in discussion.
In the future, I definitely expect new business designations to be created in Kalkaska, Petoskey, and Traverse City should bypasses of those places ever get built, just as Cadillac and Manton did when the US-131 freeway was opened in that area in 2000. MDOT still sees a need for trunkline designations to provide access to downtown areas of important cities, and will use business designations to that end whenever feasible.
Quote from: roadfro on February 18, 2010, 08:18:55 PM
Perhaps the old "City" designation would be better for some of these routes. Not sure if AASHTO would go for this...I read that they really only favor business, bypass, alternate and temporary banners nowadays.
Perhaps AASHTO should be overridden or ignored if they won't cooperate. I like the idea of bringing back the "City" designation for routes that are more of preserving an easy way to find the old downtown or other city route from the main route - though downtown loops would work just as well for interstates.
There are still plenty of cities where many of the businesses have not migrated out towards the interstate or other highway bypass and the business routes are helpful for finding them. Off the top of my head:
* Cape Girardeau, MO
* Nebraska City, NE
* Ames, IA
* Rolla, MO (not that anyone should suffer through the traffic on this one)
* Blormal, IL
Then there are the cities that will get bypasses one of these years and will not have many businesses change from the old route to a location near the bypass very quickly:
* Jerseyville, IL
* Macomb, IL
* Hannibal, MO (US 61 bypass some decade)
* Lincoln, NE (NE 2 bypasses on the future South Lincoln Beltway)
I doubt there will come a year when the Business designation is extinct. At least one state will probably hold on to the designation, and for some of the routes many businesses would protest the removal of the business route.
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 19, 2010, 01:25:48 PM
I doubt there will come a year when the Business designation is extinct. At least one state will probably hold on to the designation, and for some of the routes many businesses would protest the removal of the business route.
I agree. Also, promising to keep the old route through downtown as a business route is a cheap and reasonable bone to throw to downtown business owners (especially small businesses), to soften their opposition to building the bypass.
Quote from: rawmustard on February 19, 2010, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: roadfro on February 18, 2010, 08:18:55 PMPerhaps the old "City" designation would be better for some of these routes. Not sure if AASHTO would go for this...I read that they really only favor business, bypass, alternate and temporary banners nowadays.
And even then, the use of temporary banners seems to have diminished greatly compared to about 20 years ago. It could simply be that states that are currently building new routes choose not to do that anymore. (Otherwise, there would be plenty of TEMP I-69, I-73, I-49, etc. designations abound.)
Along these lines, NDOT applied for Temporary US 395/US 50 designations in Carson City at the same time as the business designations. The "temporary" portions of the route are simply signed as "To US 395/US 50".
Quote from: oscar on February 19, 2010, 01:47:31 PM
Also, promising to keep the old route through downtown as a business route is a cheap and reasonable bone to throw to downtown business owners (especially small businesses), to soften their opposition to building the bypass.
As far as the Carson City situation is concerned, I'm interested to see whether the business designation will remain once the bypass is completed. NDOT is planning to turn over the former US 395 turned business route to Carson City when the freeway is finally finished--the city will narrow the street in the downtown core to make it more pedestrian/business friendly. Business routes not maintained by the state sometimes have the business designation removed from the BGSs (in the case of US 395 Business/Virginia St at I-80 in Reno) and are generally not signed well along the route itself.
I still the Business routes are still useful, but when gas prices spiked up to $4 a gallon, people stopped traveling longer distances. The local travelers don't need business routes because they know their way around anyways. If travelers are driving a long distance and if they need gas or a bite to eat they just stop next to the interchange; they don't go through downtown just for fuel or a Burger King. I think Business Loop 94 is useful if you're going to St. Joesph,Mi. for Vencian Festival and need to get back on I-94.
Quote from: rawmustard on February 19, 2010, 12:21:30 PM
Quote from: roadfro on February 18, 2010, 08:18:55 PMPerhaps the old "City" designation would be better for some of these routes. Not sure if AASHTO would go for this...I read that they really only favor business, bypass, alternate and temporary banners nowadays.
And even then, the use of temporary banners seems to have diminished greatly compared to about 20 years ago. It could simply be that states that are currently building new routes choose not to do that anymore. (Otherwise, there would be plenty of TEMP I-69, I-73, I-49, etc. designations abound.)
They need to bring back the TEMP banner and go ahead and sign the completed parts of certain Interstates, namely I-49.
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 01:20:37 AM
They need to bring back the TEMP banner and go ahead and sign the completed parts of certain Interstates, namely I-49.
Doesn't the "FUTURE" tag fulfill a similar role?
Quote from: mightyace on February 20, 2010, 01:39:14 AM
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 01:20:37 AM
They need to bring back the TEMP banner and go ahead and sign the completed parts of certain Interstates, namely I-49.
Doesn't the "FUTURE" tag fulfill a similar role?
That makes me wonder if "FUTURE" is this generation's version of "TEMP" (just as "BUSINESS" supplanted "CITY" decades ago)...certainly it's been much more in vogue as of late.
Arkansas has a lot of "Business" alignments. Part of it is there are still lots of businesses along the old route (except maybe Waldron, AR ;) ) and part of it is public demand.
AR 471 was going to replace "old" US 71 in NW Arkansas but too many businesses complained that no one would know it was old 71. So, AHTD changed it to Business 71 (or 71B as Arkansas does it). There was a phase-in period with both routes, then 471 was decommissioned.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2287%2F2259318078_9ed8650e1b.jpg&hash=01cdeb21544ca261857ce43f282334999e10e04e)
In Jersey, the only remaining business routes are 1/9 Truck, 1 Business and NJ 33 Business. The last one could be renumbered easily (186 suggested) and 1 Business should be turned into a SR. 1/9 Truck is another story
I like bannered routes, and they do serve a purpose...though, not down here because most of our state and US routes still go through downtown areas. Our last bannered state route was decommissioned a few years ago.
Quote from: TheStranger on February 20, 2010, 01:48:23 AM
Quote from: mightyace on February 20, 2010, 01:39:14 AM
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 01:20:37 AM
They need to bring back the TEMP banner and go ahead and sign the completed parts of certain Interstates, namely I-49.
Doesn't the "FUTURE" tag fulfill a similar role?
That makes me wonder if "FUTURE" is this generation's version of "TEMP" (just as "BUSINESS" supplanted "CITY" decades ago)...certainly it's been much more in vogue as of late.
I've been of the impression that TEMP was used for the original Interstate system to denote gaps. Now that it's been completed, the new Interstates no longer have gaps - it's more the reverse, that the other highway systems have bypasses.
California is infamous of course for the Business I-80 freeway just a few miles down from here in Sacramento...but outside that, the traditional old-routing surface business loops are still in vogue. I know US 101 has had a few added in the last decade in the North Bay, and business routes in Salinas and Santa Maria (especially the latter, which mostly uses Route 135) are surprisingly well-signed.
US 395 also has a business route in Ridgecrest that is not part of the old US 395 at all, but was created to serve that community a few miles off the main route.
Digressing a bit...
Quote from: TheStranger on February 20, 2010, 01:48:23 AM
Quote from: mightyace on February 20, 2010, 01:39:14 AM
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 01:20:37 AM
They need to bring back the TEMP banner and go ahead and sign the completed parts of certain Interstates, namely I-49.
Doesn't the "FUTURE" tag fulfill a similar role?
That makes me wonder if "FUTURE" is this generation's version of "TEMP" (just as "BUSINESS" supplanted "CITY" decades ago)...certainly it's been much more in vogue as of late.
"Temporary" != "Future"
"Temporary" routes are used to connect two completed portions of a highway along an uncompleted segment. Temporary designations are also used where a new alignment is being constructed and a connection needs to be temporarily made between the old and new alignments on a segment of road that was not previously, and ultimately will not be, a part of the main highway.
By contrast, "Future" banners (seemingly most often used for future Interstates) are used by some DOTs to indicate a highway corridor that will eventually become signed along part of an existing route, but have yet to be formally designated for a variety of reasons.
Temporary routes are still one of the special routes types that AASHTO will designate on the U.S. highway system. However, temporary designations may not always be signed as such. I mentioned upthread how NDOT has signed Temporary US 395/US 50 in Carson City as "TO US 395/US 50".
"Future" banners are not specifically mentioned as a special route type used by AASHTO. However, I think they have allowed some future Interstate corridors to be signed as "future" routes in some recent route numbering decisions.
Quote from: florida on February 20, 2010, 11:06:36 AM
I like bannered routes, and they do serve a purpose...though, not down here because most of our state and US routes still go through downtown areas. Our last bannered state route was decommissioned a few years ago.
What about FL-44 Bus? Or Truck FL-14? Both are still posted as far as I can tell via StreetView.
Continuing to state-maintain the old alignment through town makes sense. What I hate, though, is the use of "BUS" as an abbreviation for the banner. It isn't a route for buses! :pan: Using "BUSN" instead would solve this problem nicely.
True, in some cases there are just as many businesses on the new route... but still, I like sticking with the "business" banner simply out of consistency. "Business route X" does not and never has meant "route X to find businesses" to me. It means "old route X through town".
...okay, maybe "City" is a better banner. But only if it's used in all such cases. Again, consistency.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2010, 10:50:28 PM
Continuing to state-maintain the old alignment through town makes sense. What I hate, though, is the use of "BUS" as an abbreviation for the banner. It isn't a route for buses! :pan: Using "BUSN" instead would solve this problem nicely.
I like the way Arkansas handles business routes. They simply add a B to the number. US 71 Business = US 71B.
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2010, 10:50:28 PM
What I hate, though, is the use of "BUS" as an abbreviation for the banner. It isn't a route for buses!
I've never seen "BUS" posted in the field, only having seen "BUSINESS" always spelled out. It's different for Alternate routes, where NDOT always uses the abbreviated form of "ALT" on its signs.
I've seen both "BUS" and "BUSN" used.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 20, 2010, 11:31:31 PM
I've seen both "BUS" and "BUSN" used.
I think I saw "BUSSES" once.
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 10:57:45 PM
I like the way Arkansas handles business routes. They simply add a B to the number. US 71 Business = US 71B.
271 in Hugo, OK is posted the same way
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2370%2F2528979852_53d9d9cc9c.jpg&hash=f30394e65a2f16174b5155a6835718a4060d536a)
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2010, 10:50:28 PM
Continuing to state-maintain the old alignment through town makes sense. What I hate, though, is the use of "BUS" as an abbreviation for the banner. It isn't a route for buses! :pan: Using "BUSN" instead would solve this problem nicely.
How about "BIZ" ??
I agree that business routes are unneeded because most travelers on the road don't want to go through town in the first place. Most people want to get to their destination as quickly as possible.
I like how Virginia (and similarly N.C.) handles it. Business Routes are the old alignment of new freeways. Period. We don't use interstate business loops or short loops off of freeways that were designated solely to serve a town.
For instance, when the Great Bridge Bypass / Chesapeake Expy / Oak Grove Connector was completed in Chesapeake a little while back, all of VA-168 moved onto the new freeway and all of the old road became VA-168 BUS, even though it crosses the new route numerous times and is a rural 2-lane road for quite a ways.
Same goes for US-17 in Gloucester and Chesapeake, and US-58 through Emporia, Franklin, Courtland, Suffolk, etc.
Now most of the other types of bannered routes we use (Alternate and Truck) are mostly pointless. The Alternate US-460 and VA-337 in Norfolk and Portsmouth are long, complicated, poorly-signed routes that use one tunnel instead of another, and Truck VA-143 in Hampton seems rather pointless. It is very poorly signed (though includes a few examples of odd vertically-squashed VA route shields) and serves no easily discernible purpose.
Quote from: US71 on February 21, 2010, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 10:57:45 PM
I like the way Arkansas handles business routes. They simply add a B to the number. US 71 Business = US 71B.
271 in Hugo, OK is posted the same way
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2370%2F2528979852_53d9d9cc9c.jpg&hash=f30394e65a2f16174b5155a6835718a4060d536a)
If adding a "B" to the number makes it a business route, then putting a business plate over the route number with a "B" like in the picture is simply redundant
...unless its a business route of the business route :sombrero:
Judging from the picture, Hugo, OK is not much bigger than those "last chance for gas" towns in Nevada.
Quote from: leifvanderwall on February 21, 2010, 08:41:34 PM
Judging from the picture, Hugo, OK is not much bigger than those "last chance for gas" towns in Nevada.
The picture of US 271B showing a multi-lane road, instead of just two lanes, is enough evidence to suggest that Hugo, OK is far bigger than any "last chance for gas" town in Nevada.
Quote from: US71 on February 21, 2010, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 10:57:45 PM
I like the way Arkansas handles business routes. They simply add a B to the number. US 71 Business = US 71B.
271 in Hugo, OK is posted the same way
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2370%2F2528979852_53d9d9cc9c.jpg&hash=f30394e65a2f16174b5155a6835718a4060d536a)
I've seen this done in other places in Arkansas.
Quote from: citrus on February 21, 2010, 12:16:31 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on February 20, 2010, 10:50:28 PM
Continuing to state-maintain the old alignment through town makes sense. What I hate, though, is the use of "BUS" as an abbreviation for the banner. It isn't a route for buses! :pan: Using "BUSN" instead would solve this problem nicely.
How about "BIZ" ??
No, that would make me sing "Just a Friend" every time I saw one of those banners.
Quote from: US71 on February 21, 2010, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 10:57:45 PM
I like the way Arkansas handles business routes. They simply add a B to the number. US 71 Business = US 71B.
271 in Hugo, OK is posted the same way
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2370%2F2528979852_53d9d9cc9c.jpg&hash=f30394e65a2f16174b5155a6835718a4060d536a)
That's fairly rare in Oklahoma, in fact that's the only one I've seen. Now there are xB state routes, but most of them are just spurs.
From the Department of redundancy department :pan:
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 21, 2010, 08:21:13 PM
I like how Virginia (and similarly N.C.) handles it. Business Routes are the old alignment of new freeways. Period. We don't use interstate business loops or short loops off of freeways that were designated solely to serve a town
Or Oregon, for that matter. The original highway serves as the business loop (US 30, OR 99) while the freeway serves as the mainline (I-5, I-84). Exceptions for OR 99E Bus in Salem, where OR 99E stays on the freeway.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 21, 2010, 08:21:13 PM
I like how Virginia (and similarly N.C.) handles it. Business Routes are the old alignment of new freeways. Period.
I do not like that, because when I drive a business loop I want to see actual business, as opposed to being swept by them at freeway speeds. I-85 and I-40 in the Carolinas, and I-80 in Sacramento - those three are all abuses and clearly not within the parameters of what a business loop is.
...which is why I said I liked how we don't use interstate business loops in Virginia. ;-)
Quote from: roadfro on February 18, 2010, 08:18:55 PMPerhaps the old "City" designation would be better for some of these routes. Not sure if AASHTO would go for this...I read that they really only favor business, bypass, alternate and temporary banners nowadays.
Unless a bypass has access controls (zoning restrictions), eventually the new road has more business than the through-town "Business" route. "City" would be a less ambiguous term than "Alternate", and doesn't imply any level of commercial activity therein. Activity which tries to push out of town to the bypass as soon as it's built. What business that's left in town is usually of the smaller scale mom-and-pop type.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 22, 2010, 10:24:45 PM
...which is why I said I liked how we don't use interstate business loops in Virginia. ;-)
I still think there should be one. Well, at least a Interstate Business Spur in Bristol. There wasn't one needed until VA-381 became hidden. Now I think it would be wise to sign the road as Business Spur I-381 from the end of the Interstate to US-11/11E/11W/19/421.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 22, 2010, 10:24:45 PM
we don't use interstate business loops in Virginia. ;-)
there was an I-95 in Emporia as late as 1984.
Well, last time I was out that way there wasn't, and Google Maps doesn't show one (not that thats really a good indication anyway).
Besides, I've never had any trouble finding random businesses off an interstate exit when traveling before, so I don't think having business routes for that purpose is a big deal anyway.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 21, 2010, 10:38:09 PM
Quote from: US71 on February 21, 2010, 10:36:21 AM
Quote from: bugo on February 20, 2010, 10:57:45 PM
I like the way Arkansas handles business routes. They simply add a B to the number. US 71 Business = US 71B.
271 in Hugo, OK is posted the same way
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2370%2F2528979852_53d9d9cc9c.jpg&hash=f30394e65a2f16174b5155a6835718a4060d536a)
I've seen this done in other places in Arkansas.
There is one sign for US 1 Business in Damariscotta, Maine that does the same practice...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_ZkmN2RrOJxw%2FSqBUtHwnpyI%2FAAAAAAAANkM%2F6Kb1qdWWKts%2Fs640%2FIMG_9994.JPG&hash=05b446a80ef49ae39e3ce9bd174da16e33955ce8)
AASHTO's guidelines
http://cms.transportation.org/sites/route/docs/USRN_Checklist_Dec2009.pdf
only list BUSINESS, ALTERNATE, BYPASS, and TEMPORARY as the "special route definitions." Probably TRUCK is just an alias for a BYPASS and SCENIC for ALTERNATE in situations where those are preferred. The guidelines also mention RELIEF as an alias for BYPASS.
BUSINESS is supposed to run "principally through the corporate limits of a city" and "[pass] through the business part of the city." So a CITY designation (as proposed above) would be the same as the intended BUSINESS route, even if many BUSINESS routes don't follow the guidelines.
There's also a clause about ALTERNATE routes that forbids them from being equivalent to an "OLD" route.
=========
Isn't the B suffix in combination with a BUSINESS banner redundant? Since the AASHTO guidelines don't mention the use of a suffix to mark a "special" route but instead demand the banner, perhaps this is the compromise.
Quote from: treichard on February 23, 2010, 12:52:07 AM
There's also a clause about ALTERNATE routes that forbids them from being equivalent to an "OLD" route.
Wonder why they approved ALT US 220 in PA, then...
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 20, 2010, 10:30:10 PM
Quote from: florida on February 20, 2010, 11:06:36 AM
I like bannered routes, and they do serve a purpose...though, not down here because most of our state and US routes still go through downtown areas. Our last bannered state route was decommissioned a few years ago.
What about FL-44 Bus? Or Truck FL-14? Both are still posted as far as I can tell via StreetView.
I was thinking of FL 60 Business in Bartow when writing this ;)
FL 44 Business is only signed at the FL 44 mainline, but it has been absorbed under FL 44 in the data. Truck FL 14 isn't acknowledged in any data either (unless they're in the GIS files).
Quote from: treichard on February 23, 2010, 12:52:07 AM
AASHTO's guidelines
http://cms.transportation.org/sites/route/docs/USRN_Checklist_Dec2009.pdf
only list BUSINESS, ALTERNATE, BYPASS, and TEMPORARY as the "special route definitions." Probably TRUCK is just an alias for a BYPASS and SCENIC for ALTERNATE in situations where those are preferred. The guidelines also mention RELIEF as an alias for BYPASS.
I can only use MDSHA as an example, but in their route logs, TRUCK isn't used in route inventories. Even Scenic (40) makes an appearance. Most Truck bannered routes are 'overlays' on other routes, and those numbers are used, e.g. Erdman Ave is referenced as MD 151, even though it's also Truck US 40.
Quote from: treichard on February 23, 2010, 12:52:07 AM
BUSINESS is supposed to run "principally through the corporate limits of a city" and "[pass] through the business part of the city." So a CITY designation (as proposed above) would be the same as the intended BUSINESS route, even if many BUSINESS routes don't follow the guidelines.
There's been more and more of a decoupling of those two areas. The 'business part' might not be within the corporate limits.
Quote from: MDRoads on February 27, 2010, 02:36:17 AM
I can only use MDSHA as an example, but in their route logs, TRUCK isn't used in route inventories. Even Scenic (40) makes an appearance. Most Truck bannered routes are 'overlays' on other routes, and those numbers are used, e.g. Erdman Ave is referenced as MD 151, even though it's also Truck US 40.
What about Truck 1/Truck 40 in the same city? They're not overlays on any other route. If memory serves, Truck 1 would have to be an official route but Truck 40 may be able to get away without it?
Minden, LA has Truck US 79 and Truck US 80 that are separate routings from the main highway.
Fort Smith, AR has Truck 255 which is the same as AR 255
The use of business routes is so inconsistent that, as a practical matter, they are probably completely useless to the average traveler.
Various business routes I've taken include:
- Routes that are never signed once you leave the freeway
- Routes through empty rural areas miles outside of town
- Routes through industrial districts that bypass the downtown
- Residential streets with a handful of old motels
- A freeway through central Sacramento
Which is all interesting roadgeeking, but sucks if you're actually looking for a place to eat or stay. In the rare case there is an actually useful business route, you would never know it, because they are signed just like all the rest.
I would like to see Business Routes removed say 10 years after the bypass is built, as matter of policy. They then can be signed as "Old Highway XX" or "Historic Route XX", rather than confusing travelers.
I agree. Service signs are much more useful for finding businesses, and if people want to go into the city, they don't need a business route to do so.
Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2010, 04:17:46 PM
Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.
sometimes business routes are immediately removed from the state highway system and relegated to town control. The state provides a single batch of business signs, and then forgets about it. Montana is known for this, on business loop 15 (old US-91) and business loop 90 (old US-10). You may find 1957-spec interstate and business shields all over Montana due to this practice.
that said, the best business routes are the ones that are utterly decommissioned and forgotten, like Business US-36 in a particular Kansas town that still has cutouts as of 2007.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/KS/KS19620361i1.jpg)
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2010, 04:17:46 PM
Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.
When MDOT transferred BUS US 41 in downtown Marquette to the city, they made a big deal about taking down all the signs. The junction assemblies on US 41/M-28 were placed on wooden posts. MDOT just cut the post off above the US 41/M-28 signs to remove the BUS US 41 assembly at the top. The reassurance markers along the route were taken down off the city lightpoles in a "transfer ceremony". As I remember, the first one was jointly removed by the City Manager and the MDOT Regional Directory in front of photographers. I know that the photos ran in the newspaper the next day.
Did they at least give the signs to members of the crowd? :D
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2010, 04:17:46 PM
Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.
Check US 169 in Kansas. There are several sections that have been bypassed, but not been given business routes.
For many years there was a CITY 71 along A Street in Bentonville, AR. When it got renamed Spur 72, the signs disappeared, as did an embossed red/white Fire Station sign.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 28, 2010, 05:15:23 PM
When MDOT transferred BUS US 41 in downtown Marquette to the city, they made a big deal about taking down all the signs. The junction assemblies on US 41/M-28 were placed on wooden posts. MDOT just cut the post off above the US 41/M-28 signs to remove the BUS US 41 assembly at the top. The reassurance markers along the route were taken down off the city lightpoles in a "transfer ceremony". As I remember, the first one was jointly removed by the City Manager and the MDOT Regional Directory in front of photographers. I know that the photos ran in the newspaper the next day.
gosh I'm glad that several other towns have not done anything nearly so elaborate, and have allowed their old signs to remain in obscurity.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MI/MI19260413l1.jpg)
nothing to see here, just the last known embossed US shield in existence!
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2010, 04:17:46 PM
Another problem with business routes from a roadgeek perspective is that it keeps an old alignment of the highway on the state highway system, making it less likely for old signs to be forgotten.
Well, some of the business routes in Virginia, especially the southwestern part of the state, are havens for old cutouts.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 28, 2010, 05:57:14 PM
Did they at least give the signs to members of the crowd? :D
I don't know that they said what they did with them. They probably got reused if they were in good shape. The banner plates were probably used on BUS M-28 and the US 41 shields on a later signing project someplace.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 28, 2010, 06:05:22 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 28, 2010, 05:15:23 PM
When MDOT transferred BUS US 41 in downtown Marquette to the city, they made a big deal about taking down all the signs. The junction assemblies on US 41/M-28 were placed on wooden posts. MDOT just cut the post off above the US 41/M-28 signs to remove the BUS US 41 assembly at the top. The reassurance markers along the route were taken down off the city lightpoles in a "transfer ceremony". As I remember, the first one was jointly removed by the City Manager and the MDOT Regional Directory in front of photographers. I know that the photos ran in the newspaper the next day.
gosh I'm glad that several other towns have not done anything nearly so elaborate, and have allowed their old signs to remain in obscurity.
nothing to see here, just the last known embossed US shield in existence!
Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.
we do
not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 28, 2010, 10:56:21 PM
Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same.
nope, they are flat. They are 1948 specification, and date back to sometime between 1948 and the late 60s.
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MI/MI19480414i1.jpg)
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MI/MI19480414i2.jpg)
Quote from: AlpsROADS on February 27, 2010, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: MDRoads on February 27, 2010, 02:36:17 AM
I can only use MDSHA as an example, but in their route logs, TRUCK isn't used in route inventories. Even Scenic (40) makes an appearance. Most Truck bannered routes are 'overlays' on other routes, and those numbers are used, e.g. Erdman Ave is referenced as MD 151, even though it's also Truck US 40.
What about Truck 1/Truck 40 in the same city? They're not overlays on any other route. If memory serves, Truck 1 would have to be an official route but Truck 40 may be able to get away without it?
The city signs are ambiguous on North Ave, and imply that it's Truck 1 as well, but that's mainline US 1. West of Fulton Ave, when US 1 turns south, the rest of North Ave/Hilton Pkwy is noted on some maps as Truck 40 (a few also Truck 1). MDSHA doesn't maintain surface streets in Baltimore City, so the city can do whatever they wish. West of Fulton, it's just given a municipal number in SHA's inventory (MU2210), numbers which are given to all streets. They used to have Truck US 40 in there, and also Truck MD 2 and 3, but were removed over 10 years ago. As a primary basis for route inventory, Truck has been depreciated in relation to the other banners. All the city signage remains though.
An example where a truck route
is SHA maintained can be found west of Cumberland, where Truck US 220 overlays MD 53 (co-signed in some places, just MD 53 in others). No mention in the inventory of the Truck US route, it's strictly MD 53 there.
Truck US 40 in Baltimore:
Old sign on US 40 WB:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m-plex.com%2Froads%2Fmdmplex%2Ftreichard%2Ftrkus40_md151_us40exits.jpg&hash=2727047f99e215425e329ddecd6296e41a4fb9a3)
New sign on I-83:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m-plex.com%2Froads%2Fmdmplex%2Ftreichard%2Fus1_trkus40_i83nexit2.jpg&hash=09de9534f9858829f309ae547987b2fa93387e48)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m-plex.com%2Froads%2Fmdmplex%2Ftreichard%2Fus1_trkus40_i83nexit3.jpg&hash=2e0289d6e35c47fb4d86744e892a0eda1323727d)
US 1/Truck US 40 WB:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m-plex.com%2Froads%2Fmdmplex%2Ftreichard%2Fus1s_trkus40w_lgs.jpg&hash=4a66fb6b56151a55d8b9b684e5df2b5950982deb)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.m-plex.com%2Froads%2Fmdmplex%2Ftreichard%2Fus1s_trkus40w_split.jpg&hash=5c6cd2cbbf933af27929ece435f7ce34fac4fec8)
The opposite MD example is Business US 15 in Emmitsburg, which is in the AASHTO and SHA logs. There are zero signs for the route. On top of that, the Gettysburg Business US 15 stops at the state line, just short of the US 15 intersection where the Emmitsburg route begins.
More on topic, it would be interesting to see what proportion of Business routes actually follow their intended purpose or the present AASHTO guidelines. If most indeed don't and it would be brought to AASHTO's attention, would anything useful result?
there looks to be a great button-copy 40 shield of 1961 specifications in the first photo. There are some even older (1957 spec) shields on the Hilton Parkway, at least as of 2006 when I was last there.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 01, 2010, 01:52:29 AM
there looks to be a great button-copy 40 shield of 1961 specifications in the first photo. There are some even older (1957 spec) shields on the Hilton Parkway, at least as of 2006 when I was last there.
All shields at that junction were originally hand-painted (all replaced since then too):
(https://www.aaroads.com/mid-atlantic/maryland001/us-040_wb_at_md-151_wb.jpg)
That is one thing I always noticed, and now it makes sense since the signage is city maintained, was that the Truck routes for both U.S. 1 and 40 were inconsistently signed. Really is there a need for them with Interstate 95 being completed since the mid 1980s?
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 28, 2010, 10:56:21 PM
Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.
we do not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!
Geez oh Pete. Isn't this being a little too paranoid? Editing the location of signs on a roadgeek forum? Give me a freaking break.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 01, 2010, 12:15:41 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 28, 2010, 10:56:21 PM
Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.
we do not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!
Geez oh Pete. Isn't this being a little too paranoid? Editing the location of signs on a roadgeek forum? Give me a freaking break.
In his defense, there is one particular sign collector/dealer who is also a roadgeek, and is very persistent with transportation agencies in having signs taken down so he can resell them. His work resulted in the removal of the last couple of I-70 UT shields in the field, one of which was many miles removed from the actual Interstate. :paranoid: Paranoia sometimes is justified, as someone did take down the last US 611 shield (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=PA19666111&search=611) in the Philly area after it was posted on the old Interstate Shields Gallery. :no:
Quote from: AARoads on March 01, 2010, 12:20:19 PM
In his defense, there is one particular sign collector/dealer who is also a roadgeek, and is very persistent with transportation agencies in having signs taken down so he can resell them. His work resulted in the removal of the last couple of I-70 UT shields in the field, one of which was many miles removed from the actual Interstate. :paranoid: Paranoia sometimes is justified, as someone did take down the last US 611 shield (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=PA19666111&search=611) in the Philly area after it was posted on the old Interstate Shields Gallery. :no:
So does this person get the DOTs to sell him their old signs? I haven't heard of that happening around here.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 01, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
So does this person get the DOTs to sell him their old signs? I haven't heard of that happening around here.
usually he can buy them for scrap metal price, but sometimes he just gets them for free. the extra level of fun is when he takes the DOT guy out to the field and has them take down an old sign that is still in service.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 01, 2010, 02:34:42 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 01, 2010, 02:14:19 PM
So does this person get the DOTs to sell him their old signs? I haven't heard of that happening around here.
usually he can buy them for scrap metal price, but sometimes he just gets them for free. the extra level of fun is when he takes the DOT guy out to the field and has them take down an old sign that is still in service.
So is anyone going to "out" this person publicly, or are you going to have to do it via private message to me? (hint, hint)
Quote from: hbelkins on March 01, 2010, 12:15:41 PM
Quote from: bulldog1979 on February 28, 2010, 10:56:21 PM
Don't quote me on it, but there are two US 41 cutouts in the City of a geographic location that is not to be named. They might very well be embossed as they look about the same. Also, that photo you posted I don't think is from a street that was ever part of US 41, meaning those are city-installed shields there in another population center that shall remain anonymous.
we do not want these signs showing up in someone's garage next week courtesy of a pair of bolt cutters... so let us not reveal their exact location!
Geez oh Pete. Isn't this being a little too paranoid? Editing the location of signs on a roadgeek forum? Give me a freaking break.
Well, I guess I see the logic, but anyone who wanted, the locations of all three signs in the photos has been discussed in the GLR forum on Yahoo already. In addition there's a cutout M-28 shield that's been discussed, complete locations given in all 4 cases.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 01, 2010, 03:33:38 PM
So is anyone going to "out" this person publicly, or are you going to have to do it via private message to me? (hint, hint)
all the information can be found in our main office. It's located behind an abandoned lavatory with a sign on the door that says "beware of the leopard".
there's an M-28 shield? I never found that one, just the US-41s and M-203. Is the 28 embossed?
I know a couple of cutout shields (like the 41s) survived the mass-replacement done around 1979. One guy who worked for the highway department ended up with something like 75 embossed M shields. That's why they can be found on eBay at such affordable prices.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 01, 2010, 03:42:53 PM
there's an M-28 shield? I never found that one, just the US-41s and M-203. Is the 28 embossed?
I know a couple of cutout shields (like the 41s) survived the mass-replacement done around 1979. One guy who worked for the highway department ended up with something like 75 embossed M shields. That's why they can be found on eBay at such affordable prices.
I don't think it is. Odd enough, it's posted with a modern US 41 shield at
location which shall remain untyped and a modern double-headed arrow. We locals know where it is though. :-P
Yes, I'll admit that there are days I've been tempted to contact the appropriate city departments to express interest that if they ever were going to replace said cutouts, that I'd be interested in purchasing them. I have not, for fear that such a letter would spur them to remove them and post them on eBay or something. At least now when I go home, I can see them and enjoy them. Maybe someday I'll get replicas for my walls.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on March 01, 2010, 03:56:02 PM
I don't think it is. Odd enough, it's posted with a modern US 41 shield at location which shall remain untyped and a modern double-headed arrow. We locals know where it is though. :-P
Yes, I'll admit that there are days I've been tempted to contact the appropriate city departments to express interest that if they ever were going to replace said cutouts, that I'd be interested in purchasing them. I have not, for fear that such a letter would spur them to remove them and post them on eBay or something. At least now when I go home, I can see them and enjoy them. Maybe someday I'll get replicas for my walls.
same town as the flat 41 pair? if so, I'm quite surprised I missed it, as I thought I searched pretty thoroughly.
as for getting an M cutout, eBay is the way to go. Find seller jkellyjkelly; even the embossed ones tend to be very affordable. (the cost of a replica flat is significantly higher than an old original one!)
there's an 85 cutout in the Detroit area, with a wooden black guide sign on the same pole. There's also a US-10 cutout in downtown Detroit. There's apparently a 134 around somewhere as well but I have not seen it in person.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 01, 2010, 03:59:41 PM
There's apparently a 134 around somewhere as well but I have not seen it in person.
Dan wanted me to get a picture of this one when I made my UP trip last fall, but I set out from Mackinaw City early morning (i.e., without daylight) and didn't venture to that junction anyway.
Found this today north of Baltimore near the I-695 @ MD 139 (Charles St) bridge/interchange construction. "Truck" is being used temporarily like a Detour banner. This is just a ramp to I-695 that's always been there.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdroads.com%2Fpics%2FBaltimore%2Ftruck_695_bellona.jpg&hash=a400660753cae0584d87cd8ce43b0ae2f8cb97fb)
Quote from: agentsteel53 on March 01, 2010, 03:59:41 PM
same town as the flat 41 pair? if so, I'm quite surprised I missed it, as I thought I searched pretty thoroughly.
as for getting an M cutout, eBay is the way to go. Find seller jkellyjkelly; even the embossed ones tend to be very affordable. (the cost of a replica flat is significantly higher than an old original one!)
there's an 85 cutout in the Detroit area, with a wooden black guide sign on the same pole. There's also a US-10 cutout in downtown Detroit. There's apparently a 134 around somewhere as well but I have not seen it in person.
Different town. I might be headed up to my hometown later this week, so maybe I can snag a photo of it.
Quote from: MDRoads on March 01, 2010, 11:38:05 PM
Found this today north of Baltimore near the I-695 @ MD 139 (Charles St) bridge/interchange construction. "Truck" is being used temporarily like a Detour banner. This is just a ramp to I-695 that's always been there.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdroads.com%2Fpics%2FBaltimore%2Ftruck_695_bellona.jpg&hash=a400660753cae0584d87cd8ce43b0ae2f8cb97fb)
Before the direct connection between I-279 southbound and I-376 eastbound was built, PennDOT signed a "Truck" 376 East across the Fort Pitt Bridge then using the Banksville Road interchange as a turn-around to keep 18 wheelers from using, and at the time crashing through, Fort Pitt Boulevard.