After traveling from Madison WI to Lansing MI this Friday, I am more and more convinced that differential speed limits between cars and tricks are at best a pain in the *** and at worst downright dangerous. Wisconsin has uniform speeds for all vehicles - and traffic moves along together. Illinois and Michigan have slower truck speeds, and in Friday's heavy traffic I can't tell you the number of times all the cars were stuck driving behind two trucks passing each other at speeds below the auto speed limit.
I'm sure stopping distances are longer for trucks moving 70 MPH and fuel expenses are lower, but it grew wearisome having to cut the cruise control to join a line of cars waiting to pass all the trucks.
Your thoughts?
1. Illinois outlawed truck speed limits in rural areas a while ago, its just certain counties in suburban Chicago and St. Louis are 65T55. Now I'm not from that area and don't have a whole lot of experience with the suburban Chicago truck speed limits.
2. EVERY mile I've been on without cheating by plane has had a truck limit, because I've lived only in Oregon. I-5 has a default of 65T60 in Oregon, and 70T60 in Washington. Montana and California is worse with a 80T65 or 70T55. Its really annoying going 75 in Oregon and then having to slow down due to a truck. Back to cheating on the plane, I did not have to pass nearly as often there, or even in Idaho with 80T70/75T65 to a much lesser degree. Truck speed limits just make the road more dangerous.
Then again, 65 is a joke on I-5.
Michigan used to be a lot worse. For a number of years, cars were posted at 70 with trucks posted for 55. Your brakes got a workout, particularly when cars were typically running 10 over, and then suddenly having to scrub 25 mph in a flash when a truck cut you off. Now with trucks posted for 65 mph, it's not nearly as bad.
Don't mistake that for "good" - the 4-lane sections of I-94 in Michigan carry 7,500-15,000 commercial vehicles per day. *JUST* trucks! Add anywhere from 40,000-70,000 non-commercial vehicles on top of it, and you have yourself one busy road.
Now add lake-effect snow to the mix. There's a reason in winter I will frequently take an extra half-hour and use M-60 and US-12 to get across southern Michigan. I've had a few too many white-knuckle moments on I-94.
It's hard pulling good commercial vehicle numbers out of WisDOT, but I-39/90 south of Madison is being 6 and 8-laned to carry LESS traffic overall than I-94 in Michigan.
This issue has been discussed before, but more often using the term "split" rather than "differential" speed limits, in case you want to search for the older posts.
Quote from: Badger39 on January 19, 2019, 11:31:30 PM
After traveling from Madison WI to Lansing MI this Friday, I am more and more convinced that differential speed limits between cars and tricks are at best a pain in the *** and at worst downright dangerous. Wisconsin has uniform speeds for all vehicles - and traffic moves along together. Illinois and Michigan have slower truck speeds, and in Friday's heavy traffic I can't tell you the number of times all the cars were stuck driving behind two trucks passing each other at speeds below the auto speed limit.
I'm sure stopping distances are longer for trucks moving 70 MPH and fuel expenses are lower, but it grew wearisome having to cut the cruise control to join a line of cars waiting to pass all the trucks.
Your thoughts?
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Quote from: Crash_It on January 29, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
Quote from: Badger39 on January 19, 2019, 11:31:30 PM
After traveling from Madison WI to Lansing MI this Friday, I am more and more convinced that differential speed limits between cars and tricks are at best a pain in the *** and at worst downright dangerous. Wisconsin has uniform speeds for all vehicles - and traffic moves along together. Illinois and Michigan have slower truck speeds, and in Friday's heavy traffic I can't tell you the number of times all the cars were stuck driving behind two trucks passing each other at speeds below the auto speed limit.
I'm sure stopping distances are longer for trucks moving 70 MPH and fuel expenses are lower, but it grew wearisome having to cut the cruise control to join a line of cars waiting to pass all the trucks.
Your thoughts?
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Citing trucks for impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic when they pass another truck in the only other lane of the road at less than the auto speed limit and actually do impede the normal and reasonable flow of traffic would be the fix. The trouble is much less in California on roads with 3 or more lanes in one direction since trucks aren't allowed out of the second-right lane EVER (unless there is no reasonable choice).
I always wondered why California is so extreme in this regard.
Quote from: JREwing78 on January 21, 2019, 12:38:43 AM
Michigan used to be a lot worse. For a number of years, cars were posted at 70 with trucks posted for 55. Your brakes got a workout, particularly when cars were typically running 10 over, and then suddenly having to scrub 25 mph in a flash when a truck cut you off. Now with trucks posted for 65 mph, it's not nearly as bad.
Don't mistake that for "good" - the 4-lane sections of I-94 in Michigan carry 7,500-15,000 commercial vehicles per day. *JUST* trucks! Add anywhere from 40,000-70,000 non-commercial vehicles on top of it, and you have yourself one busy road.
Now add lake-effect snow to the mix. There's a reason in winter I will frequently take an extra half-hour and use M-60 and US-12 to get across southern Michigan. I've had a few too many white-knuckle moments on I-94.
It's hard pulling good commercial vehicle numbers out of WisDOT, but I-39/90 south of Madison is being 6 and 8-laned to carry LESS traffic overall than I-94 in Michigan.
I-94 across Michigan is inadequate at 4 lanes and the issue with truckers leaping into the left lane and going 65.2 mph to pass their buddy who's going 64.8 mph, thus jamming up traffic for several miles. Multiply that by the thousands of trucks that use this route to connect Canada's 401 corridor with basically anywhere in the central or western USA and you've got an overburdoned freeway.
Frankly, of all of the 4-lane roads I've seen, I-94 through Michigan is one of the more surprising. It's the "main street" of Michigan, which is a state known to be very enthusiastic about travel by car. How did this ever happen?
Quote from: Crash_It on January 29, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Speed limiters are likely the reason the truck isn't passing at 4 mph faster instead of 0.5 mph faster to begin with.
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2019, 02:10:17 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on January 29, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Speed limiters are likely the reason the truck isn't passing at 4 mph faster instead of 0.5 mph faster to begin with.
That's why I said GPS assisted speed limiters. Meaning, the speed limiter will sense the given speed limit or truck speed limit and then limit the truck to that speed. This will stop that issue as well as the issue with truckers tailgating, speeding and other aggressive driving as commonly seen in Illinois and Indiana. Also, the trucker can also learn self control, courtesy and common sense and just not pass unless they can pass without holding up traffic.
I suppose it's rather specious to assume that one has to do with the other, but most European countries have truck limits while simultaneously having very safe roads. Good portions of Germany's Autobahn is obviously infamous for having no limit, but trucks over 3.85 US tons are limited to 50 mph. But then you have the UK, which now permits HGV's under 8.2 US-tons to travel at 70 with the rest of traffic (caravans and heavier HGV's are still limited to 60). I can't figure out which is best, especially since both the UK and Germany have remarkably good road safety records, though there's no clear connection with speed limits.
I've always been told that vehicles are safest when travelling at the same speed, but I guess trucks are just better off going slow, period? British Columbia has a maximum 120 km/h limit with no truck restrictions, but the BC Trucking Association and other groups like Jamie Davis Towing (who help with wrecks on the Coke) have historically opposed the higher limits, or sought variable limits like I-90 over Snoqualmie Pass (in WA).
It should be noted that modern trucks, especially those that are heavy, still take massively longer to stop compared to pretty much every car ever produced. That's sufficient reasoning, IMO, for lower truck limits, especially in areas with lots of curves or poor sight distance.
Quote from: Crash_It on February 01, 2019, 12:59:49 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2019, 02:10:17 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on January 29, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Speed limiters are likely the reason the truck isn't passing at 4 mph faster instead of 0.5 mph faster to begin with.
That's why I said GPS assisted speed limiters. Meaning, the speed limiter will sense the given speed limit or truck speed limit and then limit the truck to that speed. This will stop that issue as well as the issue with truckers tailgating, speeding and other aggressive driving as commonly seen in Illinois and Indiana. Also, the trucker can also learn self control, courtesy and common sense and just not pass unless they can pass without holding up traffic.
If the speed limit is 60 mph, that would
not prevent a truck going 57 mph from passing another truck going 56 mph. The other side of this coin is that, on a 65-mph highway, if there's a vehicle going 64 mph, then any truck wishing to pass would be limited to 65 mph, when the driver might otherwise pass at 67 mph.
FWIW, I think GPS-based speed limiting is a bad idea. At my work, I've seen enough speeding alerts come in from our technicians' trucks to know it's
far from foolproof. Drive on a 65-mph expressway, cross over a side street with a 30-mph speed limit, and occasionally your truck's GPS will think you're driving 65 mph in a 30-mph zone. Couple that with speed limiting, and it could be bad news.
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2019, 01:28:10 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on February 01, 2019, 12:59:49 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2019, 02:10:17 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on January 29, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Speed limiters are likely the reason the truck isn't passing at 4 mph faster instead of 0.5 mph faster to begin with.
That's why I said GPS assisted speed limiters. Meaning, the speed limiter will sense the given speed limit or truck speed limit and then limit the truck to that speed. This will stop that issue as well as the issue with truckers tailgating, speeding and other aggressive driving as commonly seen in Illinois and Indiana. Also, the trucker can also learn self control, courtesy and common sense and just not pass unless they can pass without holding up traffic.
If the speed limit is 60 mph, that would not prevent a truck going 57 mph from passing another truck going 56 mph. The other side of this coin is that, on a 65-mph highway, if there's a vehicle going 64 mph, then any truck wishing to pass would be limited to 65 mph, when the driver might otherwise pass at 67 mph.
FWIW, I think GPS-based speed limiting is a bad idea. At my work, I've seen enough speeding alerts come in from our technicians' trucks to know it's far from foolproof. Drive on a 65-mph expressway, cross over a side street with a 30-mph speed limit, and occasionally your truck's GPS will think you're driving 65 mph in a 30-mph zone. Couple that with speed limiting, and it could be bad news.
It would be modernized to know that isn't the case. I wouldn't have a problem with being behind a truck going 65/65 to pass one that is going 64. I usually drive the speed limit anyway and a truck should not ever go over the speed limit. That's why there are so many rollover crashes.
Quote from: Crash_It on February 01, 2019, 12:59:49 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2019, 02:10:17 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on January 29, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Speed limiters are likely the reason the truck isn't passing at 4 mph faster instead of 0.5 mph faster to begin with.
That's why I said GPS assisted speed limiters. Meaning, the speed limiter will sense the given speed limit or truck speed limit and then limit the truck to that speed. This will stop that issue as well as the issue with truckers tailgating, speeding and other aggressive driving as commonly seen in Illinois and Indiana. Also, the trucker can also learn self control, courtesy and common sense and just not pass unless they can pass without holding up traffic.
We'd be a lot better off, if professional drivers would just always act professionally. It takes quite a while for a truck with a load to move over, even longer to accelerate to a decent passing speed, a long time to pass another long vehicle, and a long time to get back over in safety. Professional drivers should be able to make this calculation professionally and give due regard for the amount of clear space in the next lane behind them. If they can't do what they need to do in safety and without impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic, they shouldn't initiate the passing move. There are sections of I-5 between I-580 and the CASR-99 junction where it is possible that trucks should just flat out be prohibited from passing from 5AM to 7PM. I would hope that we wouldn't have to impose that restriction. I would hope that we would add a third lane and that we could all just get along!
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
Quote from: Crash_It on February 01, 2019, 12:59:49 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 29, 2019, 02:10:17 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on January 29, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
The issue is more of the trucks wanting to pass each other when the speed differential between them isn't sufficient enough to warrant a pass (for example one truck going 57 to pass the other that is going 56) than of the sheer existence of truck speed limits which usually are only in urban areas. At least here in IL. Also, every time I'm in WI on US41, there are trucks hogging 3, sometimes 4 of the 5 lanes slowly passing each other. GPS assisted speed limiters are the only solution to this problem.
Speed limiters are likely the reason the truck isn't passing at 4 mph faster instead of 0.5 mph faster to begin with.
That's why I said GPS assisted speed limiters. Meaning, the speed limiter will sense the given speed limit or truck speed limit and then limit the truck to that speed. This will stop that issue as well as the issue with truckers tailgating, speeding and other aggressive driving as commonly seen in Illinois and Indiana. Also, the trucker can also learn self control, courtesy and common sense and just not pass unless they can pass without holding up traffic.
We'd be a lot better off, if professional drivers would just always act professionally. It takes quite a while for a truck with a load to move over, even longer to accelerate to a decent passing speed, a long time to pass another long vehicle, and a long time to get back over in safety. Professional drivers should be able to make this calculation professionally and give due regard for the amount of clear space in the next lane behind them. If they can't do what they need to do in safety and without impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic, they shouldn't initiate the passing move. There are sections of I-5 between I-580 and the CASR-99 junction where it is possible that trucks should just flat out be prohibited from passing from 5AM to 7PM. I would hope that we wouldn't have to impose that restriction. I would hope that we would add a third lane and that we could all just get along!
Then you'll have the 2 right lanes backed up by trucks riding next to each other. See it in IL all the time and as a result, you'll get an even more rogue trucker coming into the restricted lane to pass. I have it so many times on my dashcam that I just stopped locking the clip.
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
If they can't do what they need to do in safety and without impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic, they shouldn't initiate the passing move.
That's only reasonable in flat terrain. It can and does happen that, when a trucker starts to overtake a slower vehicle, it appears easy enough to complete the maneuver–but, a mile down the road or so, there begins a slight uphill which he cannot overcome at the same speed, and so his speed drops to match that of the slower vehicle or even less. That wasn't being unprofessional, it just happens.
↓ This is the way the conversation should have gone. ↓
Quote from: Crash_It on February 01, 2019, 12:59:49 AM
the speed limiter will sense the given speed limit or truck speed limit and then limit the truck to that speed
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2019, 01:28:10 PM
on a 65-mph highway, if there's a vehicle going 64 mph, then any truck wishing to pass would be limited to 65 mph, when the driver might otherwise pass at 67 mph.
Quote from: Crash_It on February 07, 2019, 11:52:28 AM
Then you'll have the 2 right lanes backed up by trucks riding next to each other.
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2019, 12:08:26 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
If they can't do what they need to do in safety and without impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic, they shouldn't initiate the passing move.
That's only reasonable in flat terrain. It can and does happen that, when a trucker starts to overtake a slower vehicle, it appears easy enough to complete the maneuver—but, a mile down the road or so, there begins a slight uphill which he cannot overcome at the same speed, and so his speed drops to match that of the slower vehicle or even less. That wasn't being unprofessional, it just happens.
↓ This is the way the conversation should have gone. ↓
Quote from: Crash_It on February 01, 2019, 12:59:49 AM
the speed limiter will sense the given speed limit or truck speed limit and then limit the truck to that speed
Quote from: kphoger on February 01, 2019, 01:28:10 PM
on a 65-mph highway, if there's a vehicle going 64 mph, then any truck wishing to pass would be limited to 65 mph, when the driver might otherwise pass at 67 mph.
Quote from: Crash_It on February 07, 2019, 11:52:28 AM
Then you'll have the 2 right lanes backed up by trucks riding next to each other.
I say, up to a point, let trucks pass as they are able at whatever speed of which the truck is capable or to which it is limited, but not by impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic in a lane in which they are only authorized to be in order to pass. With only 3 lanes in one direction, California only allows trucks in the middle lane to for passing. So, driving at a speed that is well below the car speed limit in order to pass isn't and shouldn't be allowed. On the other hand, even if they bottled up the right two lanes, there's still the left available in that scenario.
Also, I disagree that a professional shouldn't take into account and be aware of the terrain ahead. If a hill (or even a rise) will keep them from passing without impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic, they should not attempt the move. Professional should know the capabilities of their equipment.
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 12:53:33 PM
Also, I disagree that a professional shouldn't take into account and be aware of the terrain ahead. If a hill (or even a rise) will keep them from passing without impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic, they should not attempt the move. Professional should know the capabilities of their equipment.
So you think truck drivers should survey a detailed topographical map of their entire route and commit it to memory, such that they know exactly where every rise in the road is and what the gradient is for each? Or do you think they should be required to have X-ray vision so they can see a rise in the road through the traffic in front of them?
Sorry, bud, but I used to drive a box truck for a living. Even on roads I knew like the back of my hand in my usual territory, I couldn't keep track of exactly what speed I could maintain for every rise in every road–much less on roads I was less familiar with. It's simply not a reasonable or achievable goal to expect drivers to predict the road like that.
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 12:53:33 PM
I say, up to a point, let trucks pass as they are able at whatever speed the truck of which the truck is capable or to which it is limited, but not by impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic in a lane in which they are only authorized to be in order to pass.
So can I assume, then, that you're no longer in favor of GPS-based speed limiters?
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2019, 01:01:45 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 12:53:33 PM
Also, I disagree that a professional shouldn't take into account and be aware of the terrain ahead. If a hill (or even a rise) will keep them from passing without impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic, they should not attempt the move. Professional should know the capabilities of their equipment.
So you think truck drivers should survey a detailed topographical map of their entire route and commit it to memory, such that they know exactly where every rise in the road is and what the gradient is for each? Or do you think they should be required to have X-ray vision so they can see a rise in the road through the traffic in front of them?
Sorry, bud, but I used to drive a box truck for a living. Even on roads I knew like the back of my hand in my usual territory, I couldn't keep track of exactly what speed I could maintain for every rise in every road—much less on roads I was less familiar with. It's simply not a reasonable or achievable goal to expect drivers to predict the road like that.
So then did you slow up and merge back over behind the vehicle you were trying to pass, or did you give everyone else the big FU and blocked traffic until you were able to gain a little speed?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 07, 2019, 01:05:02 PM
So then did you slow up and merge back over behind the vehicle you were trying to pass, or did you give everyone else the big FU and blocked traffic until you were able to gain a little speed?
I would slow down and get back over into the right lane. However, I don't think I've ever seen a big rig driver do that in a similar situation.
Maybe once...
Quote from: kphoger on February 07, 2019, 01:03:04 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 12:53:33 PM
I say, up to a point, let trucks pass as they are able at whatever speed the truck of which the truck is capable or to which it is limited, but not by impeding the normal and reasonable flow of traffic in a lane in which they are only authorized to be in order to pass.
So can I assume, then, that you're no longer in favor of GPS-based speed limiters?
I never said that I was in favor of such limiting devices. I can see a company policy limiting the truck to like 68 MPH or something like that. To my way of thinking, if they aren't capable of going 70 MPH (because of company limitation). they shouldn't be in the lane for 70 MPH traffic unless the two trucks involved basically have the road to themselves. I also haven't taken a position on the increase to 65MPH on the truck speed limit in California (on rural roads, presumably where cars can go 70 MPH).
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I never said that I was in favor of such limiting devices.
Sorry, I got your replies and
Crash_It's replies mixed up.
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I can see a company policy limiting the truck to like 68 MPH or something like that. To my way of thinking, if they aren't capable of going 70 MPH (because of company limitation). they shouldn't be in the lane for 70 MPH traffic unless the two trucks involved basically have the road to themselves. I also haven't taken a position on the increase to 65MPH on the truck speed limit in California (on rural roads, presumably where cars can go 70 MPH).
(1) You seem to consider the speed limit to be a minimum rather than a maximum. If your vehicle can't go over 70 mph, then there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed in a lane where all traffic is required by law to drive under 70 mph.
(2) Where you live, are there lanes with different speed limits side-by-side? I've seen that before, but never in the USA. My opinion of it can be found
here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19860.msg2216714#msg2216714). If, on the other hand, all lanes have the same speed limit, then there's no such thing as "the lane for 70 MPH traffic". It's just as illegal to drive 71 mph in the left lane as in the right lane, and it's just as legal to drive 69 mph in the left lane as in the right lane.
(3) Speed limits and keep-right laws operate side-by-side in order to produce good driving behavior. They are related, but they are not the same thing, nor are they mutually exclusive. Driving 90 mph doesn't mean you somehow have the right to block the left lane to anyone driving 95 mph, and driving 65 mph doesn't mean you're never allowed into the left lane. I'm a huge proponent of keeping right except to pass, but "slower traffic" is a relative term, not an absolute one.
Quote from: kphoger on February 08, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I never said that I was in favor of such limiting devices.
Sorry, I got your replies and Crash_It's replies mixed up.
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I can see a company policy limiting the truck to like 68 MPH or something like that. To my way of thinking, if they aren't capable of going 70 MPH (because of company limitation). they shouldn't be in the lane for 70 MPH traffic unless the two trucks involved basically have the road to themselves. I also haven't taken a position on the increase to 65MPH on the truck speed limit in California (on rural roads, presumably where cars can go 70 MPH).
(1) You seem to consider the speed limit to be a minimum rather than a maximum. If your vehicle can't go over 70 mph, then there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed in a lane where all traffic is required by law to drive under 70 mph.
(2) Where you live, are there lanes with different speed limits side-by-side? I've seen that before, but never in the USA. My opinion of it can be found here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19860.msg2216714#msg2216714). If, on the other hand, all lanes have the same speed limit, then there's no such thing as "the lane for 70 MPH traffic". It's just as illegal to drive 71 mph in the left lane as in the right lane, and it's just as legal to drive 69 mph in the left lane as in the right lane.
(3) Speed limits and keep-right laws operate side-by-side in order to produce good driving behavior. They are related, but they are not the same thing, nor are they mutually exclusive. Driving 90 mph doesn't mean you somehow have the right to block the left lane to anyone driving 95 mph, and driving 65 mph doesn't mean you're never allowed into the left lane. I'm a huge proponent of keeping right except to pass, but "slower traffic" is a relative term, not an absolute one.
As re #1: Agreed, but 63 MPH in the left lane where traffic is allowed to go 70 MPH will often impede the normal and reasonable flow of traffic and that isn't allowed under California Law.
As re #2: There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH. In California, trucks are only allowed out of the right lane in order to pass and then only in the second right lane. With 4 or more lanes in the same direction, they are allowed only in the right two lanes (unless there is a permissive sign or there is some reason why the must be there, like a left exit or left turn, the right two lanes are exit only, etc). On I-5 (which I think that we can both agree needs a third lane that would fix about 97% of our problems and could be built in the existing right of way), it is too frequent of an occurrence that trucks going 63 or 64 MPH (for which they could currently be ticketed for exceeding the State Maximum 55 MPH for trucks) will block the normal and reasonable flow of traffic for quite a while. Perhaps, if we let trucks go 65 MPH in these places, they either wouldn't feel the need to pass as often or would be passing at a higher speed that would get the move completed in a shorter time. On the other hand, 30-40 tons is a lot of weight to be throwing around at 65 MPH (or faster).
As re #3: I think that I tried to explain approximately the same thing in approximately the same way to an "Over the Posted Limit is always wrong" dingbat in the old m.t.r newsgroup. So, I think that, if you want an argument, we need a different subject than this one.
Quote from: kphoger on February 08, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I never said that I was in favor of such limiting devices.
Sorry, I got your replies and Crash_It's replies mixed up.
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I can see a company policy limiting the truck to like 68 MPH or something like that. To my way of thinking, if they aren't capable of going 70 MPH (because of company limitation). they shouldn't be in the lane for 70 MPH traffic unless the two trucks involved basically have the road to themselves. I also haven't taken a position on the increase to 65MPH on the truck speed limit in California (on rural roads, presumably where cars can go 70 MPH).
(1) You seem to consider the speed limit to be a minimum rather than a maximum. If your vehicle can't go over 70 mph, then there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed in a lane where all traffic is required by law to drive under 70 mph.
(2) Where you live, are there lanes with different speed limits side-by-side? I've seen that before, but never in the USA. My opinion of it can be found here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19860.msg2216714#msg2216714). If, on the other hand, all lanes have the same speed limit, then there's no such thing as "the lane for 70 MPH traffic". It's just as illegal to drive 71 mph in the left lane as in the right lane, and it's just as legal to drive 69 mph in the left lane as in the right lane.
(3) Speed limits and keep-right laws operate side-by-side in order to produce good driving behavior. They are related, but they are not the same thing, nor are they mutually exclusive. Driving 90 mph doesn't mean you somehow have the right to block the left lane to anyone driving 95 mph, and driving 65 mph doesn't mean you're never allowed into the left lane. I'm a huge proponent of keeping right except to pass, but "slower traffic" is a relative term, not an absolute one.
Thank you! The American idea of lane discipline ("fast lane," "slow lane") is completely screwed. Your lane selection, maybe with the exception of climbing lanes, should have nothing to do with your absolute speed. It has to do with your speed relative to the traffic immediately around you, i.e. whether you're passing. People think it's their god-given right to go 85 mph in the passing lane and tailgate you even when you're going a good 10 mph faster than traffic in the right lane.
On the other end, you have the "What buddy, I'm not going fast enough for ya?" crowd, who feel whatever speed they're going is the only correct one and decide to enforce it on everyone in the left lane behind them. These people also tend to complain about people passing them on the right (or even better, "passing me on the right even when I'm speeding!"), which:
a, shouldn't be an issue if you're aware of your surroundings;
b, isn't illegal, and;
c, should hardly ever happen if you keep proper lane discipline.
Quote from: kphoger on February 08, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I never said that I was in favor of such limiting devices.
Sorry, I got your replies and Crash_It's replies mixed up.
Quote from: michravera on February 07, 2019, 09:51:45 PM
I can see a company policy limiting the truck to like 68 MPH or something like that. To my way of thinking, if they aren't capable of going 70 MPH (because of company limitation). they shouldn't be in the lane for 70 MPH traffic unless the two trucks involved basically have the road to themselves. I also haven't taken a position on the increase to 65MPH on the truck speed limit in California (on rural roads, presumably where cars can go 70 MPH).
(1) You seem to consider the speed limit to be a minimum rather than a maximum. If your vehicle can't go over 70 mph, then there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed in a lane where all traffic is required by law to drive under 70 mph.
Oh really? Is that so? Go drive 55 alongside someone else that's going 55 in a 70 zone with only two lanes per direction and see what happens to you.
Quote from: kphoger on February 08, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
(1) You seem to consider the speed limit to be a minimum rather than a maximum. If your vehicle can't go over 70 mph, then there's no reason you shouldn't be allowed in a lane where all traffic is required by law to drive under 70 mph.
It's not legal in the state of WA for two cars to drive side-by-side at the speed limit. Far left lane is for passing only. If you're not passing, you're impeding traffic, which is against the law.
Quote from: kphoger on February 08, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
(2) Where you live, are there lanes with different speed limits side-by-side? I've seen that before, but never in the USA. My opinion of it can be found here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19860.msg2216714#msg2216714). If, on the other hand, all lanes have the same speed limit, then there's no such thing as "the lane for 70 MPH traffic". It's just as illegal to drive 71 mph in the left lane as in the right lane, and it's just as legal to drive 69 mph in the left lane as in the right lane.
Many freeways in Seattle have per-lane limits. I-5, I-90, WA-520.
Quote from: michravera on February 08, 2019, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 08, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
(2) Where you live, are there lanes with different speed limits side-by-side? I've seen that before, but never in the USA. My opinion of it can be found here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19860.msg2216714#msg2216714). If, on the other hand, all lanes have the same speed limit, then there's no such thing as "the lane for 70 MPH traffic". It's just as illegal to drive 71 mph in the left lane as in the right lane, and it's just as legal to drive 69 mph in the left lane as in the right lane.
As re #2: There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH. In California, trucks are only allowed out of the right lane in order to pass and then only in the second right lane. With 4 or more lanes in the same direction, they are allowed only in the right two lanes (unless there is a permissive sign or there is some reason why the must be there, like a left exit or left turn, the right two lanes are exit only, etc). On I-5 (which I think that we can both agree needs a third lane that would fix about 97% of our problems and could be built in the existing right of way), it is too frequent of an occurrence that trucks going 63 or 64 MPH (for which they could currently be ticketed for exceeding the State Maximum 55 MPH for trucks) will block the normal and reasonable flow of traffic for quite a while. Perhaps, if we let trucks go 65 MPH in these places, they either wouldn't feel the need to pass as often or would be passing at a higher speed that would get the move completed in a shorter time. On the other hand, 30-40 tons is a lot of weight to be throwing around at 65 MPH (or faster).
(citation needed)
Where on I-80 in the Sierra Nevada is there a posted speed limit of 50mph in one lane and 65 in the other? I have never seen this... I'm fairly certain I-80 is posted for 65 from the Nevada state line clear to Sacramento if not further (state max 55 for trucks/towing not withstanding).
Quote from: roadfro on February 09, 2019, 10:48:35 AM
Quote from: michravera on February 08, 2019, 03:06:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 08, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
(2) Where you live, are there lanes with different speed limits side-by-side? I've seen that before, but never in the USA. My opinion of it can be found here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19860.msg2216714#msg2216714). If, on the other hand, all lanes have the same speed limit, then there's no such thing as "the lane for 70 MPH traffic". It's just as illegal to drive 71 mph in the left lane as in the right lane, and it's just as legal to drive 69 mph in the left lane as in the right lane.
As re #2: There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH. In California, trucks are only allowed out of the right lane in order to pass and then only in the second right lane. With 4 or more lanes in the same direction, they are allowed only in the right two lanes (unless there is a permissive sign or there is some reason why the must be there, like a left exit or left turn, the right two lanes are exit only, etc). On I-5 (which I think that we can both agree needs a third lane that would fix about 97% of our problems and could be built in the existing right of way), it is too frequent of an occurrence that trucks going 63 or 64 MPH (for which they could currently be ticketed for exceeding the State Maximum 55 MPH for trucks) will block the normal and reasonable flow of traffic for quite a while. Perhaps, if we let trucks go 65 MPH in these places, they either wouldn't feel the need to pass as often or would be passing at a higher speed that would get the move completed in a shorter time. On the other hand, 30-40 tons is a lot of weight to be throwing around at 65 MPH (or faster).
(citation needed)
Where on I-80 in the Sierra Nevada is there a posted speed limit of 50mph in one lane and 65 in the other? I have never seen this... I'm fairly certain I-80 is posted for 65 from the Nevada state line clear to Sacramento if not further (state max 55 for trucks/towing not withstanding).
The citation was fairly easy to obtain from CalTrans and the CVC:
DESIGNATED LANES for VEHICLES with a 55 MPH SPEED LIMIT
Vehicles that are required to travel at a maximum of 55 mph on California highways must use a designated lane or lanes, as stated in the CVC below:
21655. (a) ... (b) Any ... vehicle subject to the provisions of Section 22406 shall be driven in the lane or lanes designated ... whenever signs have been erected... . ..., when a specific lane or lanes have not been so designated, ... those vehicles shall be driven in the right-hand lane for traffic or as close as practicable to the right edge or curb. If, however, a specific lane or lanes have not been designated on a divided highway having four or more clearly marked lanes for traffic in one direction, ... those vehicles may also be driven in the lane to the immediate left of that right-hand lane, ... When overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, the driver shall use either the designated lane, the lane to the immediate left of the right-hand lane, or the right-hand lane for traffic ... This subdivision does not apply to a driver who is preparing for a left- or right-hand turn or who is entering into or exiting from a highway or to a driver who must ... drive in a lane other than the right-hand lane to continue on his or her intended route.
As to the signs for "THIS LANE/(DOWN ARROW)/(REGULATORY)50(MPH)" on I-80, I have only driven the section twice in the last 5 years. My recollection is that they are on the section in Placer County east of Auburn where the rightmost lane often closes during snow and in the section in which chain controls often exist, so it would be easy to miss during ski season and there are only two or three of them. If I recall, they are often posted in an area where advisory speeds are also posted.
^^
That citation of the CVC has nothing to do with roadfro's opposition to your claim of 50mph lanes on I-80.
Your third paragraph, which is the only relevant response, is entirely anecdotal. I'm not saying your BS'ing us, but, well...pics or it didn't happen :biggrin:
Quote from: jakeroot on February 09, 2019, 08:43:48 PM
^^
That citation of the CVC has nothing to do with roadfro's opposition to your claim of 50mph lanes on I-80.
Your third paragraph, which is the only relevant response, is entirely anecdotal. I'm not saying your BS'ing us, but, well...pics or it didn't happen :biggrin:
roadfro's request for a citation was apparently for where trucks were allowed to drive in California. He simply indicated that he had never seen different speeds posted for different lanes of traffic and I asserted that I had seen them on I-80 and gave my closest approximation to where I had seen them, so that someone else could post documentary evidence, if it suited them to do so. I have no plans to visit that area until the next time the North American Bridge Championships are held in Reno.
But, I can do better than that, there are plenty of FasTrak lanes with special speed limits. As the reader technology improves, those limits will also disappear.
Quote from: michravera on February 10, 2019, 11:17:32 AM
roadfro's request for a citation was apparently for where trucks were allowed to drive in California. He simply indicated that he had never seen different speeds posted for different lanes of traffic and I asserted that I had seen them on I-80 and gave my closest approximation to where I had seen them, so that someone else could post documentary evidence, if it suited them to do so. I have no plans to visit that area until the next time the North American Bridge Championships are held in Reno.
Not quite.
roadfro was asking for you to prove that a split limit exists for all cars on I-80. Not only did you not mention that the 50-limit and exclusive lane were only for trucks, the post you quoted (by
kphoger) was asking about lane-specific limits for all cars, not trucks. Your first response to that post was "
There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH" ... this is not wrong, per se, but that 50 limit is for trucks, not cars.
kphoger was asking about limits like this, where (in this example) all cars can go 60 in one lane, but all other cars (in every other lane) must only go 45...lane-based limits for all cars, not just trucks:
(https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop17056/images/figure1.jpg)
Quote from: Crash_It on February 09, 2019, 01:07:43 AM
Oh really? Is that so? Go drive 55 alongside someone else that's going 55 in a 70 zone with only two lanes per direction and see what happens to you.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 09, 2019, 01:32:46 AM
It's not legal in the state of WA for two cars to drive side-by-side at the speed limit. Far left lane is for passing only. If you're not passing, you're impeding traffic, which is against the law.
None of that matters to what I was talking about.
What I had replied to was "To my way of thinking, if they aren't capable of going 70 MPH (because of company limitation). they shouldn't be in the lane for 70 MPH traffic unless the two trucks involved basically have the road to themselves." What such an assertion means is that a trucker whose rig is limited to 69 mph should not be allowed to pass another trucker going 50 mph. That's ridiculous. I've driven on highways with 60- to 70-mph speed limits where heavy-laden turnpike doubles can barely manage 20 mph up the hill. What would you have all the other trucks do that are able to maintain a good 45 to 50 mph? Slow down to 15? Your suggestion solution is intolerable in the real world.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
(https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop17056/images/figure1.jpg)
I have a fundamental problem with that setup: it is illegal to drive at any speed between 45 mph and 60 mph without obstructing the left lane.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 10, 2019, 11:17:32 AM
roadfro's request for a citation was apparently for where trucks were allowed to drive in California. He simply indicated that he had never seen different speeds posted for different lanes of traffic and I asserted that I had seen them on I-80 and gave my closest approximation to where I had seen them, so that someone else could post documentary evidence, if it suited them to do so. I have no plans to visit that area until the next time the North American Bridge Championships are held in Reno.
Not quite. roadfro was asking for you to prove that a split limit exists for all cars on I-80. Not only did you not mention that the 50-limit and exclusive lane were only for trucks, the post you quoted (by kphoger) was asking about lane-specific limits for all cars, not trucks. Your first response to that post was "There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH" ... this is not wrong, per se, but that 50 limit is for trucks, not cars.]
Confirming what jakeroot said. I interpreted michravera's statement to assert that there are separate signed speed limits for each lane that apply to all vehicles, for which I requested evidence as that is something I have not seen over the last 17-ish years that I've made occasional trips from Reno to points west via I-80.
And in any case, the typical signed truck speed limit in CA is 55, not 50. There *might* be some curve/truck rollover warning signs marked for 50...
Quote from: kphoger on February 11, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: Crash_It on February 09, 2019, 01:07:43 AM
Oh really? Is that so? Go drive 55 alongside someone else that's going 55 in a 70 zone with only two lanes per direction and see what happens to you.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 09, 2019, 01:32:46 AM
It's not legal in the state of WA for two cars to drive side-by-side at the speed limit. Far left lane is for passing only. If you're not passing, you're impeding traffic, which is against the law.
None of that matters to what I was talking about.
What I had replied to was "To my way of thinking, if they aren't capable of going 70 MPH (because of company limitation). they shouldn't be in the lane for 70 MPH traffic unless the two trucks involved basically have the road to themselves." What such an assertion means is that a trucker whose rig is limited to 69 mph should not be allowed to pass another trucker going 50 mph. That's ridiculous. I've driven on highways with 60- to 70-mph speed limits where heavy-laden turnpike doubles can barely manage 20 mph up the hill. What would you have all the other trucks do that are able to maintain a good 45 to 50 mph? Slow down to 15? Your suggestion solution is intolerable in the real world.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
(https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop17056/images/figure1.jpg)
I have a fundamental problem with that setup: it is illegal to drive at any speed between 45 mph and 60 mph without obstructing the left lane.
Isn't that an express lane where entry is only permitted where marked? So you aren't really allowed to enter the lane with a higher speed limit at that point?
My memory from drivers ed in Florida is that by statute, the minimum speed limit on any road is 15mph slower then the maximum unless otherwise posted. Our highways used to have that posted but its been disappearing as signs get replaced.
Quote from: UCFKnights on February 12, 2019, 10:30:57 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 11, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
(https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/fhwahop17056/images/figure1.jpg)
I have a fundamental problem with that setup: it is illegal to drive at any speed between 45 mph and 60 mph without obstructing the left lane.
Isn't that an express lane where entry is only permitted where marked? So you aren't really allowed to enter the lane with a higher speed limit at that point?
The left lane is an HOV lane with 24-hour restrictions. But access is unlimited, as it's a single white line. (I-5 northbound, south of Seattle, for the record)
kphoger, was your last sentence meant to be a question? I'm not sure what you're asking or stating.
Basically, the far left lane has a higher limit because the general purpose lanes have slower moving traffic ahead (which in this case, isn't affecting the HOV lane).
Quote from: roadfro on February 12, 2019, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 10, 2019, 11:17:32 AM
roadfro's request for a citation was apparently for where trucks were allowed to drive in California. He simply indicated that he had never seen different speeds posted for different lanes of traffic and I asserted that I had seen them on I-80 and gave my closest approximation to where I had seen them, so that someone else could post documentary evidence, if it suited them to do so. I have no plans to visit that area until the next time the North American Bridge Championships are held in Reno.
Not quite. roadfro was asking for you to prove that a split limit exists for all cars on I-80. Not only did you not mention that the 50-limit and exclusive lane were only for trucks, the post you quoted (by kphoger) was asking about lane-specific limits for all cars, not trucks. Your first response to that post was "There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH" ... this is not wrong, per se, but that 50 limit is for trucks, not cars.]
Confirming what jakeroot said. I interpreted michravera's statement to assert that there are separate signed speed limits for each lane that apply to all vehicles, for which I requested evidence as that is something I have not seen over the last 17-ish years that I've made occasional trips from Reno to points west via I-80.
And in any case, the typical signed truck speed limit in CA is 55, not 50. There *might* be some curve/truck rollover warning signs marked for 50...
The signs, when and where they exist, have (or had) a first line that says "THIS LANE". The second line has (or had) an arrow pointing at the lane, and the bottom part of the sign has (or had) a regulatory (that is to say "black on white") "50" sign. I forget whether it had the "MPH" on it or not. The lane is (or was) not specifically a truck lane, but trucks would have normally driven there, and it is (or was) not a truck only speed limit. And yes, as I recall, the section of road had frequent bends that were advised down to 55 MPH. As I said, these were in lanes that would frequently not be in use during chain controls.
Quote from: UCFKnights on February 12, 2019, 10:30:57 PM
My memory from drivers ed in Florida is that by statute, the minimum speed limit on any road is 15mph slower then the maximum unless otherwise posted. Our highways used to have that posted but its been disappearing as signs get replaced.
If that's true, that applies solely to Florida. Other states may have similar rules, but they would always be state specific.
Quote from: michravera on February 13, 2019, 09:59:02 AM
Quote from: roadfro on February 12, 2019, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 10, 2019, 11:17:32 AM
roadfro's request for a citation was apparently for where trucks were allowed to drive in California. He simply indicated that he had never seen different speeds posted for different lanes of traffic and I asserted that I had seen them on I-80 and gave my closest approximation to where I had seen them, so that someone else could post documentary evidence, if it suited them to do so. I have no plans to visit that area until the next time the North American Bridge Championships are held in Reno.
Not quite. roadfro was asking for you to prove that a split limit exists for all cars on I-80. Not only did you not mention that the 50-limit and exclusive lane were only for trucks, the post you quoted (by kphoger) was asking about lane-specific limits for all cars, not trucks. Your first response to that post was "There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH" ... this is not wrong, per se, but that 50 limit is for trucks, not cars.]
Confirming what jakeroot said. I interpreted michravera's statement to assert that there are separate signed speed limits for each lane that apply to all vehicles, for which I requested evidence as that is something I have not seen over the last 17-ish years that I've made occasional trips from Reno to points west via I-80.
And in any case, the typical signed truck speed limit in CA is 55, not 50. There *might* be some curve/truck rollover warning signs marked for 50...
The signs, when and where they exist, have (or had) a first line that says "THIS LANE". The second line has (or had) an arrow pointing at the lane, and the bottom part of the sign has (or had) a regulatory (that is to say "black on white") "50" sign. I forget whether it had the "MPH" on it or not. The lane is (or was) not specifically a truck lane, but trucks would have normally driven there, and it is (or was) not a truck only speed limit. And yes, as I recall, the section of road had frequent bends that were advised down to 55 MPH. As I said, these were in lanes that would frequently not be in use during chain controls.
I'm 99% certain what you're describing doesn't exist on I-80 in CA, or at least not in regular existence in the last 17 years. I would've remembered something that peculiar.
Legislating a regular lane speed differential like that for all vehicles seems incredibly unsafe to begin with.
Quote from: roadfro on February 13, 2019, 11:01:55 AM
Quote from: michravera on February 13, 2019, 09:59:02 AM
Quote from: roadfro on February 12, 2019, 10:08:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 10, 2019, 05:09:33 PM
Quote from: michravera on February 10, 2019, 11:17:32 AM
roadfro's request for a citation was apparently for where trucks were allowed to drive in California. He simply indicated that he had never seen different speeds posted for different lanes of traffic and I asserted that I had seen them on I-80 and gave my closest approximation to where I had seen them, so that someone else could post documentary evidence, if it suited them to do so. I have no plans to visit that area until the next time the North American Bridge Championships are held in Reno.
Not quite. roadfro was asking for you to prove that a split limit exists for all cars on I-80. Not only did you not mention that the 50-limit and exclusive lane were only for trucks, the post you quoted (by kphoger) was asking about lane-specific limits for all cars, not trucks. Your first response to that post was "There are several places on I-80 in California in the Sierras where the right lane has a 50 MPH speed limit and the rest of the road is posted at 65 MPH" ... this is not wrong, per se, but that 50 limit is for trucks, not cars.]
Confirming what jakeroot said. I interpreted michravera's statement to assert that there are separate signed speed limits for each lane that apply to all vehicles, for which I requested evidence as that is something I have not seen over the last 17-ish years that I've made occasional trips from Reno to points west via I-80.
And in any case, the typical signed truck speed limit in CA is 55, not 50. There *might* be some curve/truck rollover warning signs marked for 50...
The signs, when and where they exist, have (or had) a first line that says "THIS LANE". The second line has (or had) an arrow pointing at the lane, and the bottom part of the sign has (or had) a regulatory (that is to say "black on white") "50" sign. I forget whether it had the "MPH" on it or not. The lane is (or was) not specifically a truck lane, but trucks would have normally driven there, and it is (or was) not a truck only speed limit. And yes, as I recall, the section of road had frequent bends that were advised down to 55 MPH. As I said, these were in lanes that would frequently not be in use during chain controls.
I'm 99% certain what you're describing doesn't exist on I-80 in CA, or at least not in regular existence in the last 17 years. I would've remembered something that peculiar.
Legislating a regular lane speed differential like that for all vehicles seems incredibly unsafe to begin with.
The signs would be easy to miss. They are, if I recall correctly, for only short periods and only on the uphill side, and, if I remember right, only eastbound. They often have a VMS that advises 50 MPH on the westbound side during light snow. VMS would be *THE* way to handle differential speed limits, in my opinion, but these two or three signs are (or were) fixed. As I said, they would be easy to miss. The are only over the right lane and that lane is frequently unused during chain controls.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:53:20 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 11, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
I have a fundamental problem with that setup: it is illegal to drive at any speed between 45 mph and 60 mph without obstructing the left lane.
kphoger, was your last sentence meant to be a question? I'm not sure what you're asking or stating.
My post was a single declarative sentence.
And my fundamental issue remains: If my vehicle qualifies for the HOV lane and the lanes are divided by only a single white line, then in order to drive 50 mph I am legally obligated to enter the left lane at 10 mph below the limit.
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2019, 01:26:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:53:20 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 11, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
I have a fundamental problem with that setup: it is illegal to drive at any speed between 45 mph and 60 mph without obstructing the left lane.
kphoger, was your last sentence meant to be a question? I'm not sure what you're asking or stating.
My post was a single declarative sentence.
And my fundamental issue remains: If my vehicle qualifies for the HOV lane and the lanes are divided by only a single white line, then in order to drive 50 mph I am legally obligated to enter the left lane at 10 mph below the limit.
No different than entering any roadway from another roadway, especially after a stop or yield sign.
I don't follow.
I enter a 55 mph roadway from a stop sign. I'm doing 0 mph, gaining speed. Until I'm up to the 'minimum speed limit', I'm breaking the law in your scenario.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2019, 01:45:18 PM
I enter a 55 mph roadway from a stop sign. I'm doing 0 mph, gaining speed. Until I'm up to the 'minimum speed limit', I'm breaking the law in your scenario.
OK. Let me reword it: it's legal to drive 50 mph on that highway, so people had better be OK with me driving that speed in the left lane.
Or let's reverse things: before changing lanes
out of the left lane, one is legally obligated to slow down to 15 mph
below the speed limit first. I sure hope nobody behind me minds me doing so first!
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2019, 01:26:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 12:53:20 AM
Quote from: kphoger on February 11, 2019, 02:21:37 PM
I have a fundamental problem with that setup: it is illegal to drive at any speed between 45 mph and 60 mph without obstructing the left lane.
kphoger, was your last sentence meant to be a question? I'm not sure what you're asking or stating.
My post was a single declarative sentence.
I cannot read today. I kept reading "is it" instead of "it is".
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2019, 02:08:28 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 13, 2019, 01:45:18 PM
I enter a 55 mph roadway from a stop sign. I'm doing 0 mph, gaining speed. Until I'm up to the 'minimum speed limit', I'm breaking the law in your scenario.
OK. Let me reword it: it's legal to drive 50 mph on that highway, so people had better be OK with me driving that speed in the left lane.
In that photo, there are two legal speeds: 60 in the HOV lane, 45 in the general-purpose lanes. Anything in-between is only OK when changing between the two lanes.
Also, driving in the left lane at the speed limit is only OK if you're passing someone. Otherwise, that'll get you pulled over in WA (where the photo is from) (HOV lane does not count as passing lane, for the record).
Quote from: kphoger on February 13, 2019, 02:08:28 PM
Or let's reverse things: before changing lanes out of the left lane, one is legally obligated to slow down to 15 mph below the speed limit first. I sure hope nobody behind me minds me doing so first!
Since the right lanes only have lower limits during heavier traffic, it's to be expected that you'll need to slow down to merge in anyway. But from a legal standpoint, I suppose you're correct, but no cop is going to enforce that. It's a technicality at best.
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 09:51:27 PM
Also, driving in the left lane at the speed limit is only OK if you're passing someone. Otherwise, that'll get you pulled over in WA (where the photo is from) (HOV lane does not count as passing lane, for the record).
What do you mean by "does not count" there? Do mean that it's OK to be in the left lane without passing someone, so long as the left lane is an HOV lane? In that case, my point stands: if my car qualifies as HOV, then I can drive 50 mph in the 60-mph HOV lane.
Quote from: kphoger on February 14, 2019, 12:45:55 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 09:51:27 PM
Also, driving in the left lane at the speed limit is only OK if you're passing someone. Otherwise, that'll get you pulled over in WA (where the photo is from) (HOV lane does not count as passing lane, for the record).
What do you mean by "does not count" there? Do mean that it's OK to be in the left lane without passing someone, so long as the left lane is an HOV lane? In that case, my point stands: if my car qualifies as HOV, then I can drive 50 mph in the 60-mph HOV lane.
RCW 46.61.100 governs "keep right laws"....subsection 3 indicates that it does not apply to HOV lanes as they are "not considered the left-hand lane of a roadway".
I think you can drive below the limit, but once five cars are behind you, you have to leave the HOV lane to let them by. Travelling below the limit might still be considered "impeding normal/reasonable movement of traffic".
Honestly, the law isn't very clear on the matter. Common practice in WA is for carpools to use the HOV lane at all times, leaving it when approached from the rear by a faster vehicle (not because they are legally obliged to, but to avoid road-rage). I believe the state patrol has, on several occasions, instructed drivers to do this, to avoid road-rage confrontations.