MOD NOTE: The first 54 posts of this thread were split off from the Interstate 11 alignment, through Vegas and points north (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7881.msg2402594#msg2402594) thread on 3/30/19, since this post sparked a decent amount of topic drift in the original thread. –Roadfro
Quote from: flaroads on March 17, 2019, 08:57:14 PM
It figures. I just drove through and rephotographed all those signs! Oh well, just gives me a reason to return! lol
Did take my own photos of these on the few times I was through the Henderson Bowl exchange while out there. These are the initial ones I took on March 1st...
(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/west/i-215-e-exit-001-1.jpg)
My photo of the one previously posted on Feb 26th...
(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/west/i-215-e-exit-001-2.jpg)
Guide sign at the split for I-515 north and I-11 south...
These are the only two signs so far that have changed at the exchange, so the remaining ones will definitely be a part of this project beginning tonight. I'm surprised that the one at the split wasn't an APL though, given the middle lane departs for both north and southbound traffic...
Looking at the new photos, I'm really surprised NDOT didn't just make that first sign (on 215 EB) an extra 6 or 12 feet wide so they could add cardinal directions. It appears there used to be two separate signs here judging by the lighting (confirmed: Street View, April 2018 (https://goo.gl/maps/2B1Xtr5oTXF2)).
Also interesting that, now that I-11 is signed, they didn't use Phoenix for the control city. I guess they're keeping more local destinations...
Quote from: MantyMadTown on March 18, 2019, 03:06:56 AM
I'm glad that I-11 is getting signed between I-215 and the Spaghetti BowlRailroad Pass.
FTFY
^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ. Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south.
Quote from: sparker on March 18, 2019, 02:24:41 PM
^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ. Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south.
Isn't Phoenix already the Southbound Control for I-515/US 93/95 (probably future I-11) at the Downtown Vegas Interchange with I-15?
If Phoenix can be signed Downtown, don't know why it can't further South along the corridor thru Metro Vegas
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 18, 2019, 03:13:34 PM
Quote from: sparker on March 18, 2019, 02:24:41 PM
^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ. Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south.
Isn't Phoenix already the Southbound Control for I-515/US 93/95 (probably future I-11) at the Downtown Vegas Interchange with I-15?
If Phoenix can be signed Downtown, don't know why it can't further South along the corridor thru Metro Vegas
Although IMO NDOT got ahead of itself by placing Phoenix on a downtown LV BGS, your point is taken. The fact that they have followed up "downstream" with a local destination rather than anything out of state indicates more recent hesitation on their part to specify a destination in a jurisdiction over which they have no control. Although NV-Kingman would seem to be the closest thing to a "slam-dunk" as far as prioritization of AZ I-11 upgrades goes -- in the process providing direct Interstate access to and from eastward I-40 -- it is far from a certainty at present. Possibly NDOT is retaining the "Phoenix" cite on the Spaghetti Bowl BGS simply because of I-15 traffic coming down from Utah points; simply informing that traffic to "hang a left" at that point. If & when new BGS's are deployed for I-11 over the former I-515, we'll see if "Phoenix" is retained as a control city or a more localized destination is substituted. Phoenix and/or Kingman could possibly be relegated to a secondary sign such as "KINGMAN/PHOENIX Use I-11 SOUTH" intermixed with the main BGS's.
Why not have two control cities? Boulder City for close in and Phoenix for distant strikes me as a good pairing. California is not afraid of using two control cities on their freeways. Does NDOT have a different policy?
Rick
Even if I 11 doesn't get to Phoenix, us 93 gets you half way there. Phoenix is appropriate.
Nexus 5X
Quote from: sparker on March 18, 2019, 08:33:11 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 18, 2019, 03:13:34 PM
Quote from: sparker on March 18, 2019, 02:24:41 PM
^^^^^^^^
It's unlikely that Phoenix will show up as a control city until considerably more of I-11 is completed in AZ. Since it'll be a relatively easy task to convert US 93 between NV and Kingman to Interstate standards, Kingman itself might see a role as a control city well in advance of anything further south.
Isn't Phoenix already the Southbound Control for I-515/US 93/95 (probably future I-11) at the Downtown Vegas Interchange with I-15?
If Phoenix can be signed Downtown, don't know why it can't further South along the corridor thru Metro Vegas
Although IMO NDOT got ahead of itself by placing Phoenix on a downtown LV BGS, your point is taken. The fact that they have followed up "downstream" with a local destination rather than anything out of state indicates more recent hesitation on their part to specify a destination in a jurisdiction over which they have no control. Although NV-Kingman would seem to be the closest thing to a "slam-dunk" as far as prioritization of AZ I-11 upgrades goes -- in the process providing direct Interstate access to and from eastward I-40 -- it is far from a certainty at present. Possibly NDOT is retaining the "Phoenix" cite on the Spaghetti Bowl BGS simply because of I-15 traffic coming down from Utah points; simply informing that traffic to "hang a left" at that point. If & when new BGS's are deployed for I-11 over the former I-515, we'll see if "Phoenix" is retained as a control city or a more localized destination is substituted. Phoenix and/or Kingman could possibly be relegated to a secondary sign such as "KINGMAN/PHOENIX Use I-11 SOUTH" intermixed with the main BGS's.
Phoenix has been the southbound control city on signs for I-515/US 93/US 95 South along I-15 at the Spaghetti Bowl for as long as I can remember, maybe even before 515 was signed circa 1995. Prior to Project Neon, a supplemental sign on I-15 made reference to Henderson and Boulder City via 515/93/95 South.
The lone pull-through on all of southbound 515 (at the Casino Center Blvd exit in downtown) also uses "Phoenix" (and ~25 years ago, "Needles" was on the sign as well).
Quote from: nexus73 on March 18, 2019, 10:04:25 PM
Why not have two control cities? Boulder City for close in and Phoenix for distant strikes me as a good pairing. California is not afraid of using two control cities on their freeways. Does NDOT have a different policy?
Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.
Driving back from McCarron tonight, crews were replacing the rest of the signs on 215 approaching the 515/11 interchange. Every sign, starting two miles out, leading up to the interchange now has an I-11 shield.
Quote from: TimQuiQui on March 19, 2019, 02:38:33 AM
Driving back from McCarron tonight, crews were replacing the rest of the signs on 215 approaching the 515/11 interchange. Every sign, starting two miles out, leading up to the interchange now has an I-11 shield.
Gotta give NDOT credit -- they're thorough
and quick! If this were Caltrans, the old signage would still be up four to five months after a designation or other informational change was finalized.
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2019, 02:24:05 AM
Quote from: nexus73 on March 18, 2019, 10:04:25 PM
Why not have two control cities? Boulder City for close in and Phoenix for distant strikes me as a good pairing. California is not afraid of using two control cities on their freeways. Does NDOT have a different policy?
Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.
I hate that. St. George is approaching 200,000 people in the metro area — it's about one-third the size of Reno! — but it doesn't appear on any BGS until well north of Las Vegas. You'd think San Diego, as one of the largest cities in America and the largest city actually on I-15 — would appear alongside Los Angeles. And, yeah, Boulder City or Kingman along with Phoenix would make a lot of sense.
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on March 19, 2019, 01:25:02 PM
St. George is approaching 200,000 people in the metro area
Closer to 165k, but yes, it's now ranked as the fastest-growing metro area in the nation. The projection is 500k by 2060-2070. (Where will the water come from? But that's another discussion.)
The absence of St. George on BGSs is a relic of its once-smaller size ... just like the lack of a Nielsen TV market in southern Utah. All of the big four broadcast networks are beamed in from way up in Salt Lake City (even though Las Vegas is much closer), and the only local TV news is whatever the stations in Salt Lake decide to cover. What's weird, though, is that when the Salt Lake stations do weather, they often give the St. George weather before Salt Lake. (It is often
vastly different.)
Quote from: Kniwt on March 19, 2019, 07:26:46 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on March 19, 2019, 01:25:02 PM
St. George is approaching 200,000 people in the metro area
Closer to 165k, but yes, it's now ranked as the fastest-growing metro area in the nation. The projection is 500k by 2060-2070. (Where will the water come from? But that's another discussion.)
The absence of St. George on BGSs is a relic of its once-smaller size ... just like the lack of a Nielsen TV market in southern Utah. All of the big four broadcast networks are beamed in from way up in Salt Lake City (even though Las Vegas is much closer), and the only local TV news is whatever the stations in Salt Lake decide to cover. What's weird, though, is that when the Salt Lake stations do weather, they often give the St. George weather before Salt Lake. (It is often vastly different.)
I've said this before, but Provo and St. George really ought to be on the BGSs up in the Wasatch Front, instead of simply using Las Vegas.
The difference in weather is almost entirely due to the vast elevation difference between lower Washington County and the rest of the Salt Lake TV market. No populated places in that market are lower than 4000 feet elevation with the exception of the St George area, which gets down to 2500 or so (which explains why temperatures there are consistently 10-15 degrees warmer and palm trees can grow there). I think the rationale for doing the St George weather first is so they can finish off with the forecast that the majority of their viewers care about.
I do have to say, when it snowed in St George a few weeks ago, the Salt Lake stations did a great job of covering it.
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2019, 02:24:05 AM
Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.
On the other hand, up in Reno the eastbound I-80 control city is Elko (instead of maybe using Salt Lake City instead). On the other hand, I-80 in Salt Lake uses Reno as its westbound control, bypassing Elko entirely.
Quote from: US 89 on March 19, 2019, 09:33:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2019, 02:24:05 AM
Since the late 1990s/early 2000s, NDOT tends to mostly conform to MUTCD recommendations of one control city per direction on freeway BGSs They also, generally, tend to favor more long-distance/"official" control cities over more local destinations.
On the other hand, up in Reno the eastbound I-80 control city is Elko (instead of maybe using Salt Lake City instead). On the other hand, I-80 in Salt Lake uses Reno as its westbound control, bypassing Elko entirely.
Prior to the I-80 rebuild through Reno-Sparks, "Salt Lake" was the control. They used Elko on the new signs, which is the official on whatever list it is that exists.
I think for I-11 from Vegas south should be Kingman. Then later when (or if) it goes all the way to Phoenix then Phoenix get a mention. Right now for I-515, Boulder City is fine (that is if I read someone's post correctly) for it. However, Phoenix (I distinctly remember seeing that when there in 2000) for I-515, that is a little jumping the gun a lot, however US 93 indirectly goes there from LV, so maybe at most iffy for that one.
"It rained in St. George!" Pres. Lorenzo Snow in Windows of Heaven.
Quote from: Kniwt on March 19, 2019, 07:26:46 PM
(Where will the water come from? But that's another discussion.)
Getting off topic here, I'm paraphrasing someone but don't know who: "There will always be water, it's a question of how much we're willing to pay for it."
Quote from: Kniwt on March 19, 2019, 07:26:46 PM
The absence of St. George on BGSs is a relic of its once-smaller size ... just like the lack of a Nielsen TV market in southern Utah. All of the big four broadcast networks are beamed in from way up in Salt Lake City (even though Las Vegas is much closer), and the only local TV news is whatever the stations in Salt Lake decide to cover. What's weird, though, is that when the Salt Lake stations do weather, they often give the St. George weather before Salt Lake. (It is often vastly different.)
The Las Vegas stations have over-the-air repeaters in St. George, and there was a time they were distributed on cable as well (which was great for football viewers, who had multiple Sunday afternoon game viewing options). That has since ended. It's an interesting dynamic, given how very close St. George is to Vegas but how very distant the cultural ties are compared to Salt Lake.
^^^^^^^^
As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases. Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.
Quote from: sparker on March 20, 2019, 01:26:09 PM
As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases. Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.
What do you mean? Can you explain more on that?
Quote from: MantyMadTown on March 20, 2019, 11:17:42 PM
Quote from: sparker on March 20, 2019, 01:26:09 PM
As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases. Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.
What do you mean? Can you explain more on that?
Right now St. George is functioning more as an outsized retirement "mecca" than a variegated metro area; aside from the service and retail sectors addressing the increased population, it still doesn't have a major employment draw that would come from either/or manufacturing, warehousing, and distribution -- similar to what's happening SW on I-15 in and around LV. Retirees tend in the aggregate to be somewhat more conservative than the general population of a more diversified region; it's likely that those retirees who've selected St. George as a settlement locale have done so because (a) of the Utah reputation for civic order, partially bolstered by the LDS affiliation, and (b) the relatively benign climate in terms of both weather and fiscal concerns (no consistent 110-degree days in summer like the Phoenix area, and a considerably lower cost of living than the retirement areas of the West Coast). Ironically, if businesses eventually elect to locate facilities in St. George which subsequently attracts a significant influx of labor, the perception of the area as isolated enough to afford a modicum of safety and relative solitude -- in differentiation from most large metro areas in the Southwest -- may change to the point where it's no longer a retirement "magnet". But that's probably decades down the line.
St George (actually, Washington City) has the closest In N Out to me (for now) so...
The last news I heard suggested it would be "late 2020" before the first In-N-Out locations open along the Front Range in Colorado. They're planning 50 stores though. The first location is supposed to open in the Victory Ridge mixed use development on the North side of Colorado Springs, near the corner of Voyager Pkwy and Interquest Pkwy. The meat distribution center and corporate offices will be nearby at the corner of Federal Blvd and Interquest.
Quote from: Bobby5280 on March 21, 2019, 02:14:18 PM
The last news I heard suggested it would be "late 2020" before the first In-N-Out locations open along the Front Range in Colorado. They're planning 50 stores though. The first location is supposed to open in the Victory Ridge mixed use development on the North side of Colorado Springs, near the corner of Voyager Pkwy and Interquest Pkwy. The meat distribution center and corporate offices will be nearby at the corner of Federal Blvd and Interquest.
That was what I was thinking, too. So, the nearest to me, for now, is Washington City. That will change either in the next few months (if I move back to Cali) or in the next couple of years (if I stay).
Quote from: Mark68 on March 21, 2019, 01:54:48 PM
St George (actually, Washington City) has the closest In N Out to me (for now) so...
OK -- now their SoCal connection is intact. Good to know! :sombrero:
Quote from: sparker on March 21, 2019, 12:24:47 PM
Quote from: MantyMadTown on March 20, 2019, 11:17:42 PM
Quote from: sparker on March 20, 2019, 01:26:09 PM
As St. George becomes more of a "magnet" resettlement area in contrast to its present position as a retirement center -- if and when business and/or corporate interests get a foothold in the region -- possibly as "spillover" from Las Vegas -- there will probably be something of a culture shift as the average residents' age decreases. Right now, a combination of older retirees and Utah's historical LDS dominance has bolstered the intra-Utah connection to the Wasatch Valley; if the population diversifies, then Las Vegas -- or possibly L.A. (it's less than a day's drive) customs and practices might find a more receptive audience.
What do you mean? Can you explain more on that?
Right now St. George is functioning more as an outsized retirement "mecca" than a variegated metro area; aside from the service and retail sectors addressing the increased population, it still doesn't have a major employment draw that would come from either/or manufacturing, warehousing, and distribution -- similar to what's happening SW on I-15 in and around LV. Retirees tend in the aggregate to be somewhat more conservative than the general population of a more diversified region; it's likely that those retirees who've selected St. George as a settlement locale have done so because (a) of the Utah reputation for civic order, partially bolstered by the LDS affiliation, and (b) the relatively benign climate in terms of both weather and fiscal concerns (no consistent 110-degree days in summer like the Phoenix area, and a considerably lower cost of living than the retirement areas of the West Coast). Ironically, if businesses eventually elect to locate facilities in St. George which subsequently attracts a significant influx of labor, the perception of the area as isolated enough to afford a modicum of safety and relative solitude -- in differentiation from most large metro areas in the Southwest -- may change to the point where it's no longer a retirement "magnet". But that's probably decades down the line.
Believe it or not, St. George has more of an economy than just retirement and tourism. SkyWest Airlines' corporate headquarters is located there, and Walmart and Family Dollar both operate major distribution centers in the area -- the Walmart one is right next to I-15 north of the city.
Quote from: sparker on March 21, 2019, 04:04:26 PM
Quote from: Mark68 on March 21, 2019, 01:54:48 PM
St George (actually, Washington City) has the closest In N Out to me (for now) so...
OK -- now their SoCal connection is intact. Good to know! :sombrero:
Except there are also three In-N-Out locations in the greater Salt Lake area, so I'm not sure if we can make a comparison to SoCal based on that alone.
^^^^^^^^
My reply above was purely sarcastic. I apologize if it sounded like it was based in extensive research (thought the presence of the emoji would give it away!). :cool:
Quote from: sparker on March 21, 2019, 04:39:10 PM
^^^^^^^^
My reply above was purely sarcastic. I apologize if it sounded like it was based in extensive research (thought the presence of the emoji would give it away!). :cool:
Well, that's the problem--it's not easy to read sarcasm off the internet. :pan: (emoji for clarification ;))
Well, well, well, look what just showed up. Kingman!
(https://i.imgur.com/8QJam50.jpg)
Nice! Will Phoenix show up here when the interstate is built there?
Here's the video about when we get to Phoenix...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vflqJOp_0Wk
Rick
Don't understand what is going on in NV. Did they forget that Phoenix is signed at the I 15 interchange? It's fine to use local controls ( it's not my preference), but once you use a long distance control, it needs to be signed until you reach Phoenix.
Nexus 5X
Quote from: mrsman on March 23, 2019, 09:32:17 PM
Don't understand what is going on in NV. Did they forget that Phoenix is signed at the I 15 interchange? It's fine to use local controls ( it's not my preference), but once you use a long distance control, it needs to be signed until you reach Phoenix.
Nexus 5X
Since the "Spaghetti Bowl" interchange is undergoing its latest round of modifications, it's entirely possible that since Kingman has emerged as a control city on later signage down the road, it might just be repeated once new interchange signage is erected. If anyone over in NV can access NDOT signage plans for that interchange that might shed some light on the subject.
I saw the new signs too with the Kingman as the control city. I thought it seemed odd as well, and there's more than one of them up.
Only reasoning I could think if is that the interstate takes precedent over the US routes, I-11 will reach Kingman in the somewhat near future where as it won't reach Phoenix for probably 15 years. In reality though I don't agree but that seems to make sense.
Also for the first time the signs along the 215 east approaching the 515/11 now reference I-11 but have Boulder City as the control city.
Kingman makes sense as it's the next city where the highway meets an interstate highway. A lot of traffic leaving Las Vegas is going to Kingman, then heading east on I-40. It may not be a large city like Phoenix, but you find this a lot in the Midwest and East Coast where cities like Effingham and Hagerstown are used as control cities because they're the next interstate junction even though very little of the traffic is completing their journey there.
Another reason Kingman makes sense is that some of the traffic coming from Vegas would be headed points east on I-40: Flagstaff, the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, Albuquerque, etc.
As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:
Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman
Not great.
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on March 26, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:
Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman
Not great.
That needs brought down to 2, south of Downtown. I would use Boulder City (Local) and Phoenix (Major City/Long Distance).
Leaving Boulder City, Kingman can become the Southbound "Local" Control. (I am slightly leaning on the non-Chicagoland IDOT Control City theory...Major Cities at Interstate Interchanges, and Local Controls at the regular interchanges ie I-55 Chicago and St Louis/Majors and Springfield, Lincoln, Bloomington, and Joliet/Locals or I-57 Chicago and Memphis/Majors and Sikeston, Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign, and Kankakee/Locals)
North of Downtown, Downtown LV is fine for Southbound
Also, just go ahead and decomission I-515 in favor of I-11. It's probably coming anyway...just do it
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 26, 2019, 03:19:07 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on March 26, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:
Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman
Not great.
That needs brought down to 2, south of Downtown. I would use Boulder City (Local) and Phoenix (Major City/Long Distance).
Leaving Boulder City, Kingman can become the Southbound “Local” Control. (I am slightly leaning on the non-Chicagoland IDOT Control City theory...Major Cities at Interstate Interchanges, and Local Controls at the regular interchanges ie I-55 Chicago and St Louis/Majors and Springfield, Lincoln, Bloomington, and Joliet/Locals or I-57 Chicago and Memphis/Majors and Sikeston, Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign, and Kankakee/Locals)
North of Downtown, Downtown LV is fine for Southbound
Also, just go ahead and decomission I-515 in favor of I-11. It’s probably coming anyway...just do it
Bingo. Your solution is spot on.
Rick
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 26, 2019, 03:19:07 PM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on March 26, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
As I've said before, I'm all for a diversity of control cities on BGS. But in a stretch of 30 miles, the through freeway (515/11) has the following control cities:
Downtown Las Vegas
Phoenix
Needles
Henderson
Boulder City
Kingman
Not great.
That needs brought down to 2, south of Downtown. I would use Boulder City (Local) and Phoenix (Major City/Long Distance).
Leaving Boulder City, Kingman can become the Southbound "Local" Control. (I am slightly leaning on the non-Chicagoland IDOT Control City theory...Major Cities at Interstate Interchanges, and Local Controls at the regular interchanges ie I-55 Chicago and St Louis/Majors and Springfield, Lincoln, Bloomington, and Joliet/Locals or I-57 Chicago and Memphis/Majors and Sikeston, Cairo, Mt Vernon, Effingham, Champaign, and Kankakee/Locals)
North of Downtown, Downtown LV is fine for Southbound
Also, just go ahead and decomission I-515 in favor of I-11. It's probably coming anyway...just do it
Note that there's only a couple pull through signs on I-515/I-11 itself, with controls as follows: Downtown LV (actually on US 95 before I-515 begins); Phoenix (on 515 in downtown); Kingman (new I-11 signs as mentioned/shown above). All others are signs on intersecting roads/routes–and I'm pretty sure Needles is only older signs on side roads.
Not that I'm disagreeing with the sentiment here... I think some standardization would be in order.
As to I-515/US 95 becoming I-11, there has been evidence discussed previously that implies NDOT is leaning in that direction, but nothing official yet.
My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known. This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix
Nexus 5X
Quote from: mrsman on March 27, 2019, 02:01:33 AM
My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known. This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix
Nexus 5X
I'm a big proponent of using two control cities if one of them is a small town at a major junction. The signs should say Kingman/Phoenix until Kingman. After that, Phoenix can stand alone. This approach would also be useful for long segments of Interstate without major cities, like I-70 in Kansas and I-80 in Pennsylvania. On I-70 eastbound in Kansas, the control cities can be Hays/Kansas City, Salina/Kansas City, Topeka/Kansas City, and then Kansas City alone. On I-80 eastbound in Pennsylvania, the control cities can be Clarion/New York, State College/New York, Williamsport/New York, Hazleton/New York, and then New York alone.
Quote from: Gnutella on March 27, 2019, 02:34:19 AM
Quote from: mrsman on March 27, 2019, 02:01:33 AM
My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known. This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix
Nexus 5X
I'm a big proponent of using two control cities if one of them is a small town at a major junction. The signs should say Kingman/Phoenix until Kingman. After that, Phoenix can stand alone. This approach would also be useful for long segments of Interstate without major cities, like I-70 in Kansas and I-80 in Pennsylvania. On I-70 eastbound in Kansas, the control cities can be Hays/Kansas City, Salina/Kansas City, Topeka/Kansas City, and then Kansas City alone. On I-80 eastbound in Pennsylvania, the control cities can be Clarion/New York, State College/New York, Williamsport/New York, Hazleton/New York, and then New York alone.
No love for Wickenburg?
Seriously, 2 controls is preferred, but I know there's a preference in mutcd for 1 control to limit message loading. I personally never believed it to be as big of a problem as they do and I bemoan the fact that many cities are being removed from exit signs as in California (Balboa Blvd Encino).
Nexus 5X
Quote from: mrsman on March 27, 2019, 08:22:33 PM
No love for Wickenburg?
I have love for Wickenburg. In fact, I prefer to be out Wickenburg Way when going to the Valley from SoCal if my destination allows it.
That being said, if the ultimate routing of I-11 skirts Wickenburg, I'd prefer that Wickenburg remain anonymous as a control city.
Quote from: mrsman on March 27, 2019, 08:22:33 PM
No love for Wickenburg?
As someone who graduated high school in Wickenburg, your commment cracked me up!
Quote from: kwellada on March 28, 2019, 08:16:56 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 27, 2019, 08:22:33 PM
No love for Wickenburg?
As someone who graduated high school in Wickenburg, your commment cracked me up!
The comment was part joke and part seriousness. As you well know, Wickenburg is the southern terminus of US 93, so it is also an important junction. Continue following the diagonal along US 60 to reach Phoenix.
Heck, this sign here guides people from I-40 to both Wickenburg and Phoenix, in an ideal way.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.1594489,-113.7005541,3a,75y,131.59h,87.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssiErJmDIobCCUvn3MA3ejQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
The controls at the LV Spaghetti Bowl are perfect. Big cities familiar to anyone in the Western US, very clearly identifying where you're headed: Salt Lake City (and by extension all of Utah), Los Angeles (and by extension all of So Cal); Reno (and by extension northern Cal and northern Nevada), and Phoenix (and by extension most of Arizona*). What's also interesting (especially to those folks who feel that a highway should reach its control city) is that in 3 out of 4 of those cases, the highways do not reach their control directly. Of course, when leaving LV and you want to reach Reno, LA, or Phoenix you will start on those highways (US 95 north, I-15 south, and US 93 south) and then continue on by transferring (to U 50 and I-80, I-10, and US 60). Aren't these controls far better than restricting yourself to cities that are on the highway like Fallon, Ontario, and Wickenburg?
So to sum up: I'm all for having two controls local and long-distance, so long as the long-distance control is well-known. But if there is only room on the sign for one control, the long-distance control should take precedence.
* Yes i-15 north hits the corner of AZ, but almost all of what people know about AZ would be in the direction of I-11 south including the Grand Canyon, and all major AZ cities and continuations towards NM and TX.
Quote from: mrsman on March 28, 2019, 10:57:37 PM
The controls at the LV Spaghetti Bowl are perfect.
Don't forget Tonopah. :) :) :)
(https://i.imgur.com/6siDRIy.jpg)
Quote from: Kniwt on March 28, 2019, 11:47:15 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 28, 2019, 10:57:37 PM
The controls at the LV Spaghetti Bowl are perfect.
Don't forget Tonopah. :) :) :)
(https://i.imgur.com/6siDRIy.jpg)
That sign is awful. It looks like you need to be in one lane for Reno and the other for Tonopah. It may be the angle, but I also think 'Reno' and 'Tonopah' aren't vertically aligned.
Quote from: skluth on March 29, 2019, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: Kniwt on March 28, 2019, 11:47:15 PM
Don't forget Tonopah. :) :) :)
(https://i.imgur.com/6siDRIy.jpg)
That sign is awful. It looks like you need to be in one lane for Reno and the other for Tonopah. It may be the angle, but I also think 'Reno' and 'Tonopah' aren't vertically aligned.
They could've done it better like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/c5Psymu.png)
Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 29, 2019, 04:19:34 PM
Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.
Question: does NDOT maintain the same sign height restrictions as Caltrans? Including the pix of signs on I-515 and I-11, I don't recall seeing any particularly tall signs within NV.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 29, 2019, 04:19:34 PM
Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.
Vertical is far better, but the slash can work if there are height issues in the sign.
It would be off-topic to mention that having Anaheim as the control here is extremely confusing as Anaheim exists both to the east and west of this point (the northern terminus of CA 55). And most of Anaheim's destinations like the stadiums, downtown, and Disneyland are to the west. IMO, Anaheim should be joined with LA on 91 west OR Anaheim replaced with Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda, or Corona which area all to the east.
Quote from: mrsman on March 29, 2019, 05:56:37 PM
Vertical is far better, but the slash can work if there are height issues in the sign.
It would be off-topic to mention that having Anaheim as the control here is extremely confusing as Anaheim exists both to the east and west of this point (the northern terminus of CA 55). And most of Anaheim's destinations like the stadiums, downtown, and Disneyland are to the west. IMO, Anaheim should be joined with LA on 91 west OR Anaheim replaced with Anaheim Hills, Yorba Linda, or Corona which area all to the east.
I was pointing out the aesthetics. The control city is weird since the part of Anaheim that most people care about (the resort area) is actually in the opposite direction, but who cares about little details like that.
Quote from: mrsman on March 27, 2019, 08:22:33 PM
Quote from: Gnutella on March 27, 2019, 02:34:19 AM
Quote from: mrsman on March 27, 2019, 02:01:33 AM
My preference is to use 2 controls, a local and Phoenix where there is room, but to default to Phoenix where there isn't, since it is large and well known. This makes even more sense when earlier signage already pointed you t Phoenix
Nexus 5X
I'm a big proponent of using two control cities if one of them is a small town at a major junction. The signs should say Kingman/Phoenix until Kingman. After that, Phoenix can stand alone. This approach would also be useful for long segments of Interstate without major cities, like I-70 in Kansas and I-80 in Pennsylvania. On I-70 eastbound in Kansas, the control cities can be Hays/Kansas City, Salina/Kansas City, Topeka/Kansas City, and then Kansas City alone. On I-80 eastbound in Pennsylvania, the control cities can be Clarion/New York, State College/New York, Williamsport/New York, Hazleton/New York, and then New York alone.
No love for Wickenburg?
Seriously, 2 controls is preferred, but I know there's a preference in mutcd for 1 control to limit message loading. I personally never believed it to be as big of a problem as they do and I bemoan the fact that many cities are being removed from exit signs as in California (Balboa Blvd Encino).
Nexus 5X
I figured that Wickenburg is basically an exurb of Phoenix at this point. Maybe I'm wrong, though. It's about the same distance from Phoenix as Casa Grande.
Will there ever be enough demand to extend I-17 north to I-15 to connect Phoenix to SLC or will that traffic just use I-11 and go through Vegas?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 30, 2019, 05:32:36 AM
Will there ever be enough demand to extend I-17 north to I-15 to connect Phoenix to SLC or will that traffic just use I-11 and go through Vegas?
Nope. The traffic counts on US 89 are too low.
Quote from: Verlanka on March 30, 2019, 08:58:33 AM
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on March 30, 2019, 05:32:36 AM
Will there ever be enough demand to extend I-17 north to I-15 to connect Phoenix to SLC or will that traffic just use I-11 and go through Vegas?
Nope. The traffic counts on US 89 are too low.
And even if the traffic on it were to go up significantly, even four-laning that road would be quite an expensive engineering proposition, especially the part in Utah where you've got terrain to deal with. There's also quite a bit of protected land along the 89 corridor that could cause headaches, like the Grand Staircase National Monument. But the single biggest issue for any I-17 extension is probably the massive cost of a new Colorado River bridge crossing.
The current preferred route from Phoenix to Salt Lake is I-17 to US 89 to UT 20 to I-15 (though this may change as I-11 is gradually built). That route is largely fine as is, but I will say US 89 in Arizona should probably be 4-laned up to US 160.
Quote from: djsekani on March 29, 2019, 04:18:27 PM
Quote from: skluth on March 29, 2019, 02:26:08 PM
Quote from: Kniwt on March 28, 2019, 11:47:15 PM
Don't forget Tonopah. :) :) :)
(https://i.imgur.com/6siDRIy.jpg)
That sign is awful. It looks like you need to be in one lane for Reno and the other for Tonopah. It may be the angle, but I also think 'Reno' and 'Tonopah' aren't vertically aligned.
They could've done it better like this:
(https://i.imgur.com/c5Psymu.png)
Note that the Tonopah control city has disappeared from most signage in the Las Vegas area. There is only one other pull-through sign on northbound US 95 (at Craig Road), and I'm pretty sure that sign dates to the mid-1990s (when the US 95 freeway ended just north of Craig Road).
Also note that the "slash" solution actually goes against MUTCD recommendations. Guidance in 2A.13 p05 (repeated at 2E.17 p03) states: "The solidus (slanted line or forward slash) is intended to be used for fractions only and should not be used to separate words on the same line of legend. Instead, a hyphen should be used for this purpose, such as "TRUCKS - BUSES." "
Quote from: sparker on March 29, 2019, 04:44:17 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 29, 2019, 04:19:34 PM
Or it could've been done right with a taller sign that has vertical room for two destinations.
Question: does NDOT maintain the same sign height restrictions as Caltrans? Including the pix of signs on I-515 and I-11, I don't recall seeing any particularly tall signs within NV.
The Tonopah/Reno sign being discussed dates to the late 1990s Spaghetti Bowl reconstruction project, so it is no newer than 1999 (which also helps explain its condition). NDOT used to follow maximum sign height policy similar to Caltrans in which the sign height was capped at the truss frame height. This sign was manufactured in that era.
Note that the signs in that image are currently are raised above the horizontal members of the truss frame. This was a result of the signs being remounted higher up for better visibility when old fluorescent lighting fixtures were changed to high pressure sodium fixtures. (Sign structures installed after the lighting conversion mounted the catwalk lower than the bottom horizontal truss members, so the bottom of signs can align with the truss.) According to my recollection, it was shortly after NDOT made the lighting changes (which resulted in many existing signs peeking over the top of sign trusses across the Vegas area) that NDOT started allowing slightly taller signs.
Nowadays, NDOT does still maintain sign height standards. Whereas Caltrans I think will keep to 120 inches in most cases, NDOT's 2017 Standard Plans now include taller truss frame specifications to accommodate signs with a maximum height of 160 inches. However, NDOT is still similar to Caltrans in that all signs on a single sign bridge tend to be the same height.
The only particularly tall signs in Nevada are the few true arrow-per-lane signs the state has. This includes the four on I-80 approaching the Reno Spaghetti Bowl (which do not use NDOT's standard trusses),
and the two new signs on northbound I-15 approaching I-515/US 95 installed as part of Project Neon (which are on NDOT standard trusses). There's also the two sets of signs on the southbound McCarran Airport Connector/SR 171 in Las Vegas with some very-tall-for-the-truss-used signs and are also a rare example of signs on a truss being different heights (street view (https://goo.gl/maps/RurDFV4KxxP2)) — the signs here were installed on the Clark County-administered SB connector>EB 215 flyover project, which might explain the signage peculiarity.
EDIT 4/2/19: Added underlined section (forgot about those signs).
Not-so-random musing: Can anyone find the contract # for the new signs? I can't track it down on the NDOT site but maybe someone else is more skilled than i.
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on April 04, 2019, 02:16:11 PM
Not-so-random musing: Can anyone find the contract # for the new signs? I can't track it down on the NDOT site but maybe someone else is more skilled than i.
I was trying to find it myself, but had no luck. They might be doing it in-house.
Quote from: roadfro on April 05, 2019, 10:26:58 AM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on April 04, 2019, 02:16:11 PM
Not-so-random musing: Can anyone find the contract # for the new signs? I can't track it down on the NDOT site but maybe someone else is more skilled than i.
I was trying to find it myself, but had no luck. They might be doing it in-house.
I thought so too, but per the NDOT press release:
North Las Vegas-based Highway Striping & Signs LLC is the general contractor. Work will occur nightly from 9 p.m. until 5 a.m., Sunday evening through Friday morning. The $160,000 contract calls for removing and replacing freeway signs over a 22-mile area due to age, damage, and new language with the Interstate 11 designation
^ I spent some more time searching. This contract is conspicuously absent from NDOT's active/awarded contracts database :|
Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?
Quote from: SoCal Kid on April 07, 2019, 06:01:33 PM
Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?
I believe it will cross I-40 around Kingsman, AZ.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on April 07, 2019, 08:04:09 PM
Quote from: SoCal Kid on April 07, 2019, 06:01:33 PM
Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?
I believe it will cross I-40 around Kingsman, AZ.
Got it, so drivers will have to take I-40 east to get to I-17 to Phoenix
Quote from: SoCal Kid on April 07, 2019, 06:01:33 PM
Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?
I-11 will most likely be cosigned with I-40 in the area that is now shared by I-40 and US 93.
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on April 07, 2019, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: SoCal Kid on April 07, 2019, 06:01:33 PM
Haven't read much about I-11, so pardon me if what I'm about to say sounds stupid. Will I-11 end where I-17 ends at I-40 in Flagstaff?
I-11 will most likely be cosigned with I-40 in the area that is now shared by I-40 and US 93.
Sounds reasonable as I-11 is supposed to be where US 93 is right now from AZ to Las Vegas
Quote from: Kniwt on March 23, 2019, 05:35:55 PM
Well, well, well, look what just showed up. Kingman!
(https://i.imgur.com/8QJam50.jpg)
For now, I suppose Kingman makes sense. If you go further south into Arizona, Kingman is the control city used on US 93 until you get into the Kingman city limits, just north of I-40.
It's funny that NDOT has decided to sign Kingman here, because knowing how ADOT typically signs interstates, if I-11 was a full freeway from the Nevada line to the Phoenix area, Kingman would probably be skipped as a control city. ADOT would use Phoenix southbound and Las Vegas northbound.
OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:
https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2
What's funny here is:
1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on April 08, 2019, 12:56:00 PM
OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:
https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2
What's funny here is:
1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.
If I had to guess, the original sign was likely placed here back when the freeway ended at this Boulder Highway interchange, so southbound traffic continuing on US 93/95 would have seen this sign.
That is a replace-in-kind, given the mixed case legend. Similar mileage signs statewide previously used all-caps until after the 2009 MUTCD came out.
To be fair, NDOT has been notoriously inconsistent with destinations on mileage signs like this though–and often tends to use closer controls. For example, despite Reno being used as the control city for northbound US 95 within the Las Vegas Valley, it'll be quite some time before Reno appears on a mileage sign–even after passing Tonopah, some distance signs will include Reno on the bottom while others will use Hawthorne or Fallon.
Quote from: roadfro on April 09, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on April 08, 2019, 12:56:00 PM
OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:
https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2
What's funny here is:
1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.
If I had to guess, the original sign was likely placed here back when the freeway ended at this Boulder Highway interchange, so southbound traffic continuing on US 93/95 would have seen this sign.
That is a replace-in-kind, given the mixed case legend. Similar mileage signs statewide previously used all-caps until after the 2009 MUTCD came out.
To be fair, NDOT has been notoriously inconsistent with destinations on mileage signs like this though–and often tends to use closer controls. For example, despite Reno being used as the control city for northbound US 95 within the Las Vegas Valley, it'll be quite some time before Reno appears on a mileage sign–even after passing Tonopah, some distance signs will include Reno on the bottom while others will use Hawthorne or Fallon.
Or like when Needles is signed on SB US 95 once it enters Clark County
Quote from: JustDrive on April 17, 2019, 01:52:50 AM
Quote from: roadfro on April 09, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on April 08, 2019, 12:56:00 PM
OK, so it's not the first time NDOT has used Kingman as a control:
https://goo.gl/maps/QAjLsCTZKcC2
What's funny here is:
1. This is on Old US 93/95, Boulder Highway, JSO of the 515 interchange.
2. It looks like this sign is a newer sign replacing an older sign (that probably pre-dated the construction of I-515)
3. I don't think NDOT has any similar mileage sign on the through freeway.
If I had to guess, the original sign was likely placed here back when the freeway ended at this Boulder Highway interchange, so southbound traffic continuing on US 93/95 would have seen this sign.
That is a replace-in-kind, given the mixed case legend. Similar mileage signs statewide previously used all-caps until after the 2009 MUTCD came out.
To be fair, NDOT has been notoriously inconsistent with destinations on mileage signs like this though–and often tends to use closer controls. For example, despite Reno being used as the control city for northbound US 95 within the Las Vegas Valley, it'll be quite some time before Reno appears on a mileage sign–even after passing Tonopah, some distance signs will include Reno on the bottom while others will use Hawthorne or Fallon.
Or like when Needles is signed on SB US 95 once it enters Clark County
I only know of extant Needles sign. https://goo.gl/maps/fR6j8hXx1588v7Qx9
Needles turns up on distance signage past the US 93 split south. It appears fairly regularly; see, among others, http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/95/u4/#img_4
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on April 18, 2019, 07:55:50 AM
Needles turns up on distance signage past the US 93 split south. It appears fairly regularly; see, among others, http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/95/u4/#img_4
If one had the need of putting in the controls for both 93 and 95 then it is appropriate to have Ely/Reno NB and Phoenix/Needles SB on the joint 93/95 just east of I-15. But since so much of the traffic is headed on 95 north or 93 south, IMO Reno and Phoenix are the only ones really needed here.
In a similar vein, I-15 and US 93 multiplex for a little while on the north side of Las Vegas. IIRC, this is usually signed as only Salt Lake City, not Ely/Salt Lake City.
I'm sure there are many examples of this along freeway multiplexes across the country. Another one that comes to mind is along the old US 99/US 6 as the Golden State Fwy in the LA area was being built. The northern control was only Bakersfield not Palmdale/Bakersfield. US 6 never went to Bakersfield.
Quote from: JustDrive on April 17, 2019, 01:52:50 AM
Or like when Needles is signed on SB US 95 once it enters Clark County
You'll only see Needles on two southbound US 95 mileage signs that far north: one right past Indian Springs, and another just after SR 156–both mark distance to Las Vegas, Henderson & Needles. Note that I'm fairly sure these are the only long-distance mileage signs between the Nye/Clark County Line and the northern edge of Las Vegas.
Quote from: Sub-Urbanite on April 17, 2019, 12:26:21 PM
I only know of extant Needles sign. https://goo.gl/maps/fR6j8hXx1588v7Qx9
You forgot it's counterpart on the other side of the interchange: https://goo.gl/maps/2rNZXKq9cEghzdUP6
When I was younger, this SB I-515/US 93/US 95 pull-through sign (https://goo.gl/maps/VqghpjQruvz938Bu6) in downtown Las Vegas used Phoenix & Needles.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on April 18, 2019, 07:55:50 AM
Needles turns up on distance signage past the US 93 split south. It appears fairly regularly; see, among others, http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/95/u4/#img_4
At that point, Needles makes perfect sense. Once US 95 leaves US 93 in Boulder City, the only real places of interest are Searchlight, Cal-Nev-Ari (only after Searchlight), Laughlin and Needles. So Needles makes sense as the long-distance control city in that southern stretch.
What is interesting to me is that the US 95 south exit from US 93 used to be signed "Searchlight, Needles" and it is now (after I-11 construction) just signed "Searchlight". That's in line with recent trends reducing to a single control city though. (I'd think they'd want to sign this for Laughlin--probably more traffic going there than either Searchlight or Needles.)