Here's an oddball double left I recently discovered. (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0793355,-93.1702484,3a,52.9y,252.11h,78.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QfVmwDSR-47d2rkzzM-fA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This is on CR-96 in Arden Hills, MN, near the US-10 interchange. On top of the fact that it's not signalized, it's not even a left turn onto another road–it's a left for a driveway to a church!
Is this an unusual practice, or have I just not noticed anything like this before? What is the point of having two left turn lanes if there isn't a protected signal to clear them?
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 14, 2019, 06:05:26 AM
Here's an oddball double left I recently discovered. (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0793355,-93.1702484,3a,52.9y,252.11h,78.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QfVmwDSR-47d2rkzzM-fA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This is on CR-96 in Arden Hills, MN, near the US-10 interchange. On top of the fact that it's not signalized, it's not even a left turn onto another road–it's a left for a driveway to a church!
Is this an unusual practice, or have I just not noticed anything like this before? What is the point of having two left turn lanes if there isn't a protected signal to clear them?
The only thing I can think of, especially because you said that this was a driveway to a church, is that the church may have traffic control officers (whether police or private) to control traffic on Sunday mornings and other times when there are church services that expect lots of people. Probably most of the time there are no traffic issues here and a signal would be completely unwarranted and only serve to cause backups on the arterial for the handful of cars that may need to turn into and out of the church parking lot (like the minister and other employees). But when it's busy, it's busy and they need a traffic control officer to control traffic, and there are probably enough cars turning left to need the double lanes.
There are many areas where they make special accommodations for church services on Sundays. Partly because general traffic is lower and also to make nice to the religious community. In the DC area, I know of several major streets that are adjusted to allow for more street parking near a church to allow for church parking, but only on Sundays. There are several streets that prohibit parking at the curb lane (or the median lane) for the entire week, except church service times.
Example:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0223016,-77.0449563,3a,75y,26.45h,83.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOV25u6SS5weD_6Uyr60TrQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Elsewhere, there are streets that are normally two lanes of traffic in both directions with curbside parking that become angled parking ton Sunday to fit in more cars for the church. It also goes without saying that DC has citywide free parking on Sundays (i.e. the meters are not in effect) to also be helpful to the churchgoers.
But back to your example, I would be curious to know if they actually have traffic control by police or not. Perhaps if someone is in the area on Sunday mornings and can report back?
You just might be right. It is an awfully large church, and that becomes especially obvious if you look at the aerial photos–it has a huge parking lot. I'm definitely going to have to check if I find myself back in Minnesota on a Sunday.
Not quite like the original example, but this rather intimidating stop sign intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1048263,-77.5421662,3a,75y,169.78h,74.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sioSPwVK4a2HgtRhRMaSPsQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) would seem to qualify.
Also not technically a church, though to some Wegmans could be considered a religion, so...
There's an unsignalized double left turn at Seven Corners near Falls Church. It's horrible. Always backs up, and it's a busy area. I won't post a Street View link because I'm using my phone and the last few Street View links I got from the Google Maps app didn't work correctly, so here's a map link where I dropped the pin on the spot in question: https://goo.gl/maps/Fmfy5tKY6fN2
Edited to add: I'm at a PC, so here's a Street View link (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8724929,-77.1560197,3a,75y,269.54h,83.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjbh-qAuDHi3CiqX1C5Cdlw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Djbh-qAuDHi3CiqX1C5Cdlw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D233.17781%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US). In case it's not obvious, the dual left turn is where the Mercedes wagon is heading. Part of what makes it all the more annoying is that after you make that left turn, you immediately encounter a traffic light, which just makes turning that much more difficult because most of the time either traffic is moving to beat the light or traffic is stopped so you don't have room to turn.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 14, 2019, 06:05:26 AM
Here's an oddball double left I recently discovered. (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0793355,-93.1702484,3a,52.9y,252.11h,78.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3QfVmwDSR-47d2rkzzM-fA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) This is on CR-96 in Arden Hills, MN, near the US-10 interchange. On top of the fact that it's not signalized, it's not even a left turn onto another road–it's a left for a driveway to a church!
Is this an unusual practice, or have I just not noticed anything like this before? What is the point of having two left turn lanes if there isn't a protected signal to clear them?
the other side is setup for an dual turn as well.
I'll toot my own here just slightly. I do have an existing thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17051.0) for double left turns with permissive phasing. I meant to include double left turns without any signal as well, but I can understand if that wasn't particularly clear. Certainly doesn't hurt to have another thread specifically for those rare double lefts without any signal at all.
Oddly enough, in my never-ending quest to find as many double-left turns without protected-only phasing, I have actually come across the OP's double left turn in Arden Hills. But, I'll be damned if I can't figure out who linked me to it.
I know of quite a few examples of this type of intersection, though some are closer to roundabout configuration:
Kennewick, WA:
* Hildebrand Blvd @ Plaza Way (http://bit.ly/2GnBN3d)
Edmonton, AB:
* Princess Elizabeth Ave NW @ 109 St NW (http://bit.ly/2VJ0Xyk)
* Groat Road NW @ 87 Ave NW (http://bit.ly/2UCdmaU)
Cupertino, CA:
* N Tauntu Ave @ Apple Park Way (http://bit.ly/2v5HWL2) (briefly)
Silver Spring, MD / Washington, DC:
* Colesville Road @ MD-390/16 St (http://bit.ly/2Gnw1hR)
Hunstville, AL:
* Bradford Dr NW @ AL-255 Fwy (http://bit.ly/2PiGApz)
I'm sure there are more that I can't remember at this moment. I'll post again if they come back to me.
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0718772,-76.3972741,19z/data=!3m1!1e3) intersection in Newport News, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0777383,-76.397691,16z/data=!3m1!1e3)
Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0718772,-76.3972741,19z/data=!3m1!1e3) intersection in Newport News Hampton, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0777383,-76.397691,16z/data=!3m1!1e3)
FTFY
Quote from: plain on April 30, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0718772,-76.3972741,19z/data=!3m1!1e3) intersection in Newport News Hampton, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0777383,-76.397691,16z/data=!3m1!1e3)
FTFY
IDK what that means.
EDIT:
DONT GOOGLE IT!!!
Quote from: MCRoads on May 01, 2019, 10:58:30 AM
EDIT:
DONT GOOGLE IT!!!
Didn't see anything unusual. I also "Bing'd," it, which doesn't have an adult-content filter, and got nothing bad.
Continuing on with this topic in a different manner:
How often have you seen a double left turn lane which has the absolute right of way?
At this jughandle off of US 130 in NJ, both lanes have the right of way to turn left at this intersection: https://goo.gl/maps/Vy459U5weoSNxdop8 . Traffic coming from the right has the stop sign.
I've seen the many cases where 2 lanes turn left, but can't think of any where dual left turn lanes at a non-signalized intersection have the right of way at all times. As in the case above where there's a one-way element involved, maybe this occurs more often in cities.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 11:28:43 AM
How often have you seen a double left turn lane which has the absolute right of way?
How often? Virtually never, but I know of one example in Newport, WA: https://goo.gl/maps/h63nQdChrPrdGLAb6
Part of a couplet system through town. The double left turn from the northernmost main road onto the couplet has priority over oncoming traffic.
Quote from: MCRoads on May 01, 2019, 10:58:30 AM
Quote from: plain on April 30, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0718772,-76.3972741,19z/data=!3m1!1e3) intersection in Newport News Hampton, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0777383,-76.397691,16z/data=!3m1!1e3)
FTFY
IDK what that means.
EDIT:
DONT GOOGLE IT!!!
Um, what it's meant for at least 20+ years: Fixed That For You.
Off the top of my head, I thought of this intersection in Phoenix (27th Ave and Jefferson St):
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4475701,-112.1176061,3a,75y,185.46h,91.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stkQRcQtJxdCCk20PsQqOLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on September 22, 2019, 10:43:38 AM
Off the top of my head, I thought of this intersection in Phoenix (27th Ave and Jefferson St):
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4475701,-112.1176061,3a,75y,185.46h,91.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stkQRcQtJxdCCk20PsQqOLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Very interesting! AZ has quite a few double left turns without protected-only phasing, although most are in Tucson. At least one exception is
this double left turn (https://goo.gl/maps/w29CDwzVnN9XB1ZB7) (about a mile east of the 51 Fwy, off 40th and Shea), which seems to run without any protected phasing. But I was not aware of any that operated without any signals. Based on the traffic, I highly doubt it needs two turn lanes. But it's been there for a while (
since at least 1978! (https://www.historicaerials.com/location/33.44736403635574/-112.11747817992652/1978/19) ... perhaps the oldest example so far), so it must be working OK. And if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 11:28:43 AM
How often have you seen a double left turn lane which has the absolute right of way?
Two entrances to Greenbrier Mall in Chesapeake, VA have these - https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7769691,-76.2287374,224m/data=!3m1!1e3
Traffic entering the mall on Crossways Blvd and the other entrance road has right of way, traffic on Ring Rd has to stop.
Quote from: MCRoads on April 15, 2019, 10:16:14 AM
This (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0718772,-76.3972741,19z/data=!3m1!1e3) intersection in Newport News, VA, is really weird. It has zero purpose, as it just connects to a road that interchanges with that road anyway. (Here is an aerial view.) (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.0777383,-76.397691,16z/data=!3m1!1e3)
I know this is a bit of an old post, but I figured I'd give some context here. Commander Shepard Blvd used to end at a trumpet interchange at Magruder Blvd. It was only extended west of Magruder around 2010. Prior to that North Campus Pkwy just dead-ended, and the NIA was only accessed via Floyd Thompson Blvd to the north.
North Campus Pkwy was intended to anchor an office park that never got off the ground.
This one feels a bit like cheating because there is no through movement, but it still is signed as a legitimate double left turn. Memory Rd and Federal Way just outside Boise, ID. Weird for what looks like the middle of nowhere, but it's used to access Micron HQ and some other businesses (though I still don't think it gets a lot of traffic, most people probably exiting at ID-21).
(https://i.imgur.com/qFI1KJu.png)
GSV Link (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5074063,-116.1384335,3a,50.8y,85.85h,82.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfp0SEwuUY39djXf9Bqj1eg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Do you count it if the second lane is an option lane? If so, then Wichita has that on Central Avenue (https://goo.gl/maps/3yNLqLyULaS3iCvP9).
Quote from: kphoger on September 25, 2019, 02:30:19 PM
Do you count it if the second lane is an option lane? If so, then Wichita has that on Central Avenue (https://goo.gl/maps/3yNLqLyULaS3iCvP9).
I would hope so. My first Edmonton example (upthread) is nearly identical to this setup.
The intersection of Maine and Mason Streets (https://goo.gl/maps/AAs3SFyNRnBteb499) in Brunswick, Maine has a double left-turn that's protected only by flashing beacons.
Quote from: Ian on October 02, 2019, 08:03:12 PM
The intersection of Maine and Mason Streets (https://goo.gl/maps/AAs3SFyNRnBteb499) in Brunswick, Maine has a double left-turn that's protected only by flashing beacons.
Damn, that's a great example! Almost all of these are decidedly rural or suburban. This one is definitely very urban.
Here's one I found at Little Turtle Way and the OH 161 WB onramp (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0804935,-82.8774566,3a,75y,0.56h,81.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stplvx2w6Zxhre62FJCuOMQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) when looking at Columbus's roads. Interestingly, the opposite direction have a stop sign, which may be a reason for the existence of this double left turn.
From the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh (McCandless TWP, I do believe)The left turn from NB Babcock Blvd onto Corporate Drive is a dual left-turn that encounters a stop sign (opposing traffic does NOT stop)
https://goo.gl/maps/PUp1G93aQF7ptP616
Quote from: Mr_Northside on May 18, 2021, 01:43:46 PM
From the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh (McCandless TWP, I do believe)The left turn from NB Babcock Blvd onto Corporate Drive is a dual left-turn that encounters a stop sign (opposing traffic does NOT stop)
https://goo.gl/maps/PUp1G93aQF7ptP616
I know of a similar intersection in Sylmar, CA, but the left turn movement faces an all-way stop sign. San Fernando at Truman.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2934263,-118.4519905,3a,75y,155.57h,74.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMV5WIPPJZPcdk0ny-Q9A9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
During the MPA basketball playoff games this year... this left into the Cross Insurance Center was made into a double unsignalised left at least for the duration of the playoffs... from Buck St there were two lanes turning into the parking lot to access the arena. Seems like the signage has been like this for a while... GSV below was from 2019 but still signed the same as of 4 March 2022.
From Buck St. (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7905788,-68.7800812,3a,37.2y,297.44h,92.78t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s71XO9-CjsQyk6XnRBHwsAw!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
Turning into the Cross Insurance Arena (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.79078,-68.7805297,3a,75y,207.8h,87.92t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAaBI5ePyX4erm2Kwh_aFuA!2e0!5s20190501T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: jakeroot on October 03, 2019, 02:44:59 AM
Quote from: Ian on October 02, 2019, 08:03:12 PM
The intersection of Maine and Mason Streets (https://goo.gl/maps/AAs3SFyNRnBteb499) in Brunswick, Maine has a double left-turn that's protected only by flashing beacons.
Damn, that's a great example! Almost all of these are decidedly rural or suburban. This one is definitely very urban.
Just for the heck of it (and looking for something in the local area), I looked up the intersection using the GSV history. Seems like it was signalised with protected-only lefts (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.917654,-69.9665162,3a,75y,103.93h,80.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5dQ5UdQGnzzM0zzDnVZGoA!2e0!5s20071001T000000!7i3328!8i1664) initially before sometime in the mid 2000's where the signals were set to flash, and eventually, the signals converted to beacons in 2012-ish.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 04, 2022, 11:06:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 03, 2019, 02:44:59 AM
Quote from: Ian on October 02, 2019, 08:03:12 PM
The intersection of Maine and Mason Streets (https://goo.gl/maps/AAs3SFyNRnBteb499) in Brunswick, Maine has a double left-turn that's protected only by flashing beacons.
Damn, that's a great example! Almost all of these are decidedly rural or suburban. This one is definitely very urban.
Just for the heck of it (and looking for something in the local area), I looked up the intersection using the GSV history. Seems like it was signalised with protected-only lefts (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.917654,-69.9665162,3a,75y,103.93h,80.74t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s5dQ5UdQGnzzM0zzDnVZGoA!2e0!5s20071001T000000!7i3328!8i1664) initially before sometime in the mid 2000's where the signals were set to flash, and eventually, the signals converted to beacons in 2012-ish.
I'm not sure I've ever heard of a line of events like that: fully protected, flashing arrow, flashing beacon (still a yield). Normally it's the opposite, even for single lane turns. To have the opposite
with double left turns is, well, I can't imagine there has ever been such a thing elsewhere.
Perhaps, if this was done elsewhere, northbound Maine would have a stop sign.
I looked up the intersection on Historic Aerials;
even back in 2001 (https://historicaerials.com/location/43.91764748438538/-69.96634011410026/2001/20), traffic turning left was yielding, judging by the car stopped midway into the intersection. Still see no indication of there ever being a stop line. Based on nearby intersections, I have to assume that they always use stop lines in Maine (they don't always over here, although without a crosswalk there normally would be).
At the main exit to Six Flags coming from Atlanta, the off ramp has an unsignalized double left turn onto the crossroad: https://goo.gl/maps/eEPC32PxRoXCQQLP9
Didn't want to start a separate thread for unsignalized right turn lanes. Split it if you think it should be split.
Before the intersection was rebuilt a few years ago, the EB K-254 exit for 45th Street here in Wichita had one (https://goo.gl/maps/yjgXyorkR4rCMhk2A). And the SB I-135 exit for 9th Street still does (https://goo.gl/maps/2GV3zR1hpggKR8TX6). But are there examples at non-interchange locations?
Also at an interchange, there's this absurdity (https://goo.gl/maps/6rfwUr8WeKjU42CH6) at I-64 and KY 11 in Mount Sterling, KY. Fortunately, it's now been signalized. (I don't think I've ever seen an unsignalized double left or right turn in the wild, I just happened to remember this example from another thread.)
Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2022, 02:01:21 PM
Didn't want to start a separate thread for unsignalized right turn lanes. Split it if you think it should be split.
Before the intersection was rebuilt a few years ago, the EB K-254 exit for 45th Street here in Wichita had one (https://goo.gl/maps/yjgXyorkR4rCMhk2A). And the SB I-135 exit for 9th Street still does (https://goo.gl/maps/2GV3zR1hpggKR8TX6). But are there examples at non-interchange locations?
VA 30 EB at Meadow Event Park
https://maps.app.goo.gl/voukmnMMra2yw3eW9
I use this one in Louisville, KY all the time. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ZvtjkYqckQkiLouFA?g_st=ic
Although there are now plans to change the ones way streets to two way streets in this area and this will be eliminated.
A double unsignalized right turn in Nevada: WB Meadows Lane at Decatur Blvd (https://goo.gl/maps/FK9GV9exYoDnp9Hd8).
Off hand, I can't think of another spot in Nevada where a double right turn situation is not signalized.
Quote from: roadfro on December 04, 2022, 05:34:42 PM
A double unsignalized right turn in Nevada: WB Meadows Lane at Decatur Blvd (https://goo.gl/maps/FK9GV9exYoDnp9Hd8).
Off hand, I can't think of another spot in Nevada where a double right turn situation is not signalized.
The right turn slip lane from Neil Rd to Southbound I-580 in Reno is two lanes with a yield: https://goo.gl/maps/cubTdoi1h4AYSgyj7
Quote from: jakeroot on December 06, 2022, 12:59:55 AM
Quote from: roadfro on December 04, 2022, 05:34:42 PM
A double unsignalized right turn in Nevada: WB Meadows Lane at Decatur Blvd (https://goo.gl/maps/FK9GV9exYoDnp9Hd8).
Off hand, I can't think of another spot in Nevada where a double right turn situation is not signalized.
The right turn slip lane from Neil Rd to Southbound I-580 in Reno is two lanes with a yield: https://goo.gl/maps/cubTdoi1h4AYSgyj7
Forgot about that one.
I'm pretty sure that movement was signalized when it first became a double right turn (concurrent with construction of the roundabout at Kietzke/Neil/Del Monte in the mid-2000s). I can't confirm that in Street View, but the presence of a stop bar instead of a yield line and there being pedestrian signals across the movement despite the yield in older Street Views seems to corroborate that memory.
https://goo.gl/maps/gRhd5KSBf67K5oX7A
Until Jackson Street was changed to two-way traffic, this was a double left turn from 11th Street in uptown Toledo.
Reviving a long dormant thread from hibernation, but just had to mention this unsignalised double left turn (https://www.google.com/maps/@26.5493674,-81.7596273,3a,75y,22.87h,74.49t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swv5pUdkDPB06phnp5oDO8g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D15.509163437558513%26panoid%3Dwv5pUdkDPB06phnp5oDO8g%26yaw%3D22.86996758054975!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEwNi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) on the Daniels Pkwy EB in Ft Myers FL near JetBlue Park, as I passed by this while I was on a FGCU MTE trip back in November 2024. Earliest date I could find on GSV of this existing was in Nov 2013 (https://www.google.com/maps/@26.5493519,-81.7596435,3a,75y,16.61h,70.97t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sIdUedVIdr520RHqRJKIBOQ!2e0!5s20131101T000000!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D19.028810663947198%26panoid%3DIdUedVIdr520RHqRJKIBOQ%26yaw%3D16.607294951032827!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEwNi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D).
Traffic in the opposite direction of this double left-turn in Chattanooga that must be used to stay on US 11 SB/US 64 WB. (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0292029,-85.3052202,3a,75y,9.44h,92.29t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBYlvnQHELHMDzqjF3YOnNQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.2897161908659456%26panoid%3DBYlvnQHELHMDzqjF3YOnNQ%26yaw%3D9.43996636560746!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEwNi4xIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D)
In Phoenix, at North 50th and McDowell Road, there is a double left from a side-street that only has stop signs. The second left turn also can go right.
Most of the examples in this thread are pretty safe and would operate just fine. But this one is highly unorthodox in my opinion.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/FTwovtdMHaMmhXEZ8
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/54266774151_d9e9622383_o.png)
McDowell Road / N 50th, Phoenix, AZ (https://flic.kr/p/2qFnpk6) by Jacob Root (https://www.flickr.com/photos/62537709@N03/), on Flickr
^ I'm not convinced that shared left/right arrow isn't supposed to be a shared thru/right arrow.
Quote from: webny99 on January 14, 2025, 05:35:46 PM^ I'm not convinced that shared left/right arrow isn't supposed to be a shared thru/right arrow.
I don't think there would be two dashed lines painted through the intersection if the second lane weren't also for left turns.
Quote from: US 89 on January 14, 2025, 05:59:06 PMQuote from: webny99 on January 14, 2025, 05:35:46 PM^ I'm not convinced that shared left/right arrow isn't supposed to be a shared thru/right arrow.
I don't think there would be two dashed lines painted through the intersection if the second lane weren't also for left turns.
My thought as well. Those dashed line are almost exclusively used when there are multiple turn lanes, to keep traffic from drifting into the wrong lane. Single turns virtually never have them since drifting isn't really a concern.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2025, 06:16:13 PMQuote from: US 89 on January 14, 2025, 05:59:06 PMQuote from: webny99 on January 14, 2025, 05:35:46 PM^ I'm not convinced that shared left/right arrow isn't supposed to be a shared thru/right arrow.
I don't think there would be two dashed lines painted through the intersection if the second lane weren't also for left turns.
My thought as well. Those dashed line are almost exclusively used when there are multiple turn lanes, to keep traffic from drifting into the wrong lane. Single turns virtually never have them since drifting isn't really a concern.
That's fair, but then the painted arrow in the right lane should be a triple header (including an arrow pointing straight) instead of just a double header.
There's one at north end of the Amstutz Expressway in Waukegan, IL. (https://maps.app.goo.gl/o6fdvvvGPgBQkVMV9)
Quote from: webny99 on January 14, 2025, 06:37:03 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2025, 06:16:13 PMQuote from: US 89 on January 14, 2025, 05:59:06 PMQuote from: webny99 on January 14, 2025, 05:35:46 PM^ I'm not convinced that shared left/right arrow isn't supposed to be a shared thru/right arrow.
I don't think there would be two dashed lines painted through the intersection if the second lane weren't also for left turns.
My thought as well. Those dashed line are almost exclusively used when there are multiple turn lanes, to keep traffic from drifting into the wrong lane. Single turns virtually never have them since drifting isn't really a concern.
That's fair, but then the painted arrow in the right lane should be a triple header (including an arrow pointing straight) instead of just a double header.
I agree that it seems somewhat unsafe. For an intersection that is stop signed controlled on the side street alone, it would seem that McDowell has a lot more traffic than 50th. Going straight or making a left from side street to big street is usually difficult, so right turns are generally preferred, or at least a dedicated right turn lane is formed so that right turning traffic can go when there is a gap in the eastbound right lane. Obviously, that gap is much more frequent than a gap in all of eastbound and the left lane of westbound which is necessary to complete the left turn.
My guess is that there is a lot of traffic making a left here since more of Phoenix is to the west. Plus, there is a nearby onramp to AZ-143. The left turns might back up so much traffic that two lanes were needed to prevent blocking driveways, but it's likely only needed for a relatively small part of the day, so it wasn't enough to warrant a traffic signal.
Still a weird and unusual setup.
I suppose it's worth mentioning that the lane use sign approaching the intersection matches the arrows painted on the road. No straight-through movement permitted, apparently.
This left turn is leaving some kind of industrial facility; the gate leaving it does seem to operate part-time. It is hard to believe it produces enough traffic to warrant a double left.
US-31 in Ludington, MI has a 2 lane right turn without any pavement markings from a stop sign (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ggZJnWuh2KNjkydLA)
Quote from: michiganguy123 on January 19, 2025, 02:22:59 PMUS-31 in Ludington, MI has a 2 lane right turn without any pavement markings from a stop sign (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ggZJnWuh2KNjkydLA)
and the usual verbiage is "right turn only", not the first 2 words reversed.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2025, 06:16:28 PMI suppose it's worth mentioning that the lane use sign approaching the intersection matches the arrows painted on the road. No straight-through movement permitted, apparently.
Straight through onto what? It doesn't look to me like what's on the far side of the intersection is actually a city street. I think it's just a big driveway for the storage unit business. The lack of a STOP sign on the far side of the intersection reinforces that for me. And if that's the case, then there wouldn't need to be a straight-through arrow for approaching traffic.
Quote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 08:17:03 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2025, 06:16:28 PMI suppose it's worth mentioning that the lane use sign approaching the intersection matches the arrows painted on the road. No straight-through movement permitted, apparently.
Straight through onto what? It doesn't look to me like what's on the far side of the intersection is actually a city street. I think it's just a big driveway for the storage unit business. The lack of a STOP sign on the far side of the intersection reinforces that for me. And if that's the case, then there wouldn't need to be a straight-through arrow for approaching traffic.
There is a left turn from McDowell onto this road. Be it city street or not, it is clearly operating as part of the overall intersection, and not allowing straight-through movements was evidently a deliberate choice by the city since it otherwise recognizes that driveway/street.
It's not too dissimilar to this intersection in Tacoma, WA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Jrv1eG2tm66gJ2XW9). In this case, much like the Phoenix example, the driveway is recognized by the city, as there is a painted left turn lane into the driveway. And, much like the Phoenix example, there is no designated straight lane onto the driveway from the terminating roadway. Though it does have a signal leaving the driveway.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2025, 05:19:16 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 08:17:03 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2025, 06:16:28 PMI suppose it's worth mentioning that the lane use sign approaching the intersection matches the arrows painted on the road. No straight-through movement permitted, apparently.
Straight through onto what? It doesn't look to me like what's on the far side of the intersection is actually a city street. I think it's just a big driveway for the storage unit business. The lack of a STOP sign on the far side of the intersection reinforces that for me. And if that's the case, then there wouldn't need to be a straight-through arrow for approaching traffic.
There is a left turn from McDowell onto this road. Be it city street or not, it is clearly operating as part of the overall intersection, and not allowing straight-through movements was evidently a deliberate choice by the city since it otherwise recognizes that driveway/street.
It's not too dissimilar to this intersection in Tacoma, WA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Jrv1eG2tm66gJ2XW9). In this case, much like the Phoenix example, the driveway is recognized by the city, as there is a painted left turn lane into the driveway. And, much like the Phoenix example, there is no designated straight lane onto the driveway from the terminating roadway. Though it does have a signal leaving the driveway.
Recognized by the city as existing, yes. Left-turn lanes into private drives exist all over the place. I see that, in the example you posted, the cross-street also lacks a straight-through arrow; yes, I'm saying it's comparable.
For what it's worth, here's a signalized intersection more like you were expecting:
Spirit Aerosystems (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Znk9rMg35A8uP1NL7).
Here's an interesting one at Textron:
before with straight-through lane and green ball (https://maps.app.goo.gl/DCjAjjrcJWLT6sjA9),
after with no straight-through lane and no green ball (https://maps.app.goo.gl/sJ15f9jfRJ5Hkhic8). And
here is the removed signal (https://maps.app.goo.gl/SZBxtAgGPzNte4v16).
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2025, 01:00:36 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2025, 05:19:16 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 08:17:03 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2025, 06:16:28 PMI suppose it's worth mentioning that the lane use sign approaching the intersection matches the arrows painted on the road. No straight-through movement permitted, apparently.
Straight through onto what? It doesn't look to me like what's on the far side of the intersection is actually a city street. I think it's just a big driveway for the storage unit business. The lack of a STOP sign on the far side of the intersection reinforces that for me. And if that's the case, then there wouldn't need to be a straight-through arrow for approaching traffic.
There is a left turn from McDowell onto this road. Be it city street or not, it is clearly operating as part of the overall intersection, and not allowing straight-through movements was evidently a deliberate choice by the city since it otherwise recognizes that driveway/street.
It's not too dissimilar to this intersection in Tacoma, WA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Jrv1eG2tm66gJ2XW9). In this case, much like the Phoenix example, the driveway is recognized by the city, as there is a painted left turn lane into the driveway. And, much like the Phoenix example, there is no designated straight lane onto the driveway from the terminating roadway. Though it does have a signal leaving the driveway.
Recognized by the city as existing, yes. Left-turn lanes into private drives exist all over the place. I see that, in the example you posted, the cross-street also lacks a straight-through arrow; yes, I'm saying it's comparable.
For what it's worth, here's a signalized intersection more like you were expecting: Spirit Aerosystems (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Znk9rMg35A8uP1NL7).
Here's an interesting one at Textron: before with straight-through lane and green ball (https://maps.app.goo.gl/DCjAjjrcJWLT6sjA9), after with no straight-through lane and no green ball (https://maps.app.goo.gl/sJ15f9jfRJ5Hkhic8). And here is the removed signal (https://maps.app.goo.gl/SZBxtAgGPzNte4v16).
So, what exactly was the point to your original reply? You said there was nothing to go straight to, except some kind of driveway. I pointed out that there is a left turn lane into the driveway, so it wasn't like the city didn't recognize the driveway as a potential exit from the intersection. And now, you [apparently] agree with me, and shared some similar examples to my additional example.
I'm not trying to be dense, I just don't get the point you were/are trying to make. There is absolutely a straight-through movement possible at the McDowell / 50th intersection, and it was seemingly intentional for the city to not allow that movement.
This might be a good example that relates to your original reply: 118 St E at WA-161, Puyallup, WA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/HVtb1LkTtCmuyG479). Here, a public street ends at a major road. There are no arrows at all, so you can go whatever direction you legally can. That includes crossing over the major road into the private parking lot. Most streets, at least back home in WA, don't have arrows unless they are conveying a "you may only do this" message, or if there are multiple approach lanes. The example in Phoenix does have arrows, because there are multiple approach lanes, but there was apparently a decision not to recognize the private driveway as continuing onto that road is not recognized by the arrows on North 50th.
Along the same road to the north (https://maps.app.goo.gl/KdDyB82UaxvMPSut5), a terminating road has two approach lanes, one for turning left and one for turning right. This makes sense, but there is also a driveway on the far side of the intersection. Evidently, the driveway is a legal exit from the intersection, but there isn't any actual recognition of the driveway by the local jurisdiction. No designated turn lanes into the driveway, nor does the exit from the driveway even have a stop sign.
I feel like we are getting a bit into the weeds here. Despite my otherwise aggressive tone, I do actually appreciate this tangent. It is strange how cities treat private roads. There really doesn't seem to be any standard.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2025, 11:45:05 PMSo, what exactly was the point to your original reply? You said there was nothing to go straight to, except some kind of driveway. I pointed out that there is a left turn lane into the driveway, so it wasn't like the city didn't recognize the driveway as a potential exit from the intersection. And now, you [apparently] agree with me, and shared some similar examples to my additional example.
I'm not trying to be dense, I just don't get the point you were/are trying to make. There is absolutely a straight-through movement possible at the McDowell / 50th intersection, and it was seemingly intentional for the city to not allow that movement.
This might be a good example that relates to your original reply: 118 St E at WA-161, Puyallup, WA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/HVtb1LkTtCmuyG479). Here, a public street ends at a major road. There are no arrows at all, so you can go whatever direction you legally can. That includes crossing over the major road into the private parking lot. Most streets, at least back home in WA, don't have arrows unless they are conveying a "you may only do this" message, or if there are multiple approach lanes. The example in Phoenix does have arrows, because there are multiple approach lanes, but there was apparently a decision not to recognize the private driveway as continuing onto that road is not recognized by the arrows on North 50th.
Along the same road to the north (https://maps.app.goo.gl/KdDyB82UaxvMPSut5), a terminating road has two approach lanes, one for turning left and one for turning right. This makes sense, but there is also a driveway on the far side of the intersection. Evidently, the driveway is a legal exit from the intersection, but there isn't any actual recognition of the driveway by the local jurisdiction. No designated turn lanes into the driveway, nor does the exit from the driveway even have a stop sign.
I feel like we are getting a bit into the weeds here. Despite my otherwise aggressive tone, I do actually appreciate this tangent. It is strange how cities treat private roads. There really doesn't seem to be any standard.
My point was only that I don't think it
necessary for a city to acknowledge a driveway with arrowheads. Obviously cities often do. Honestly, I hadn't thoroughly thought the idea through before posting. And, now that I've thought about it more, I still don't know exactly where I land on that.
For what it's worth, the pavement markings in your original example are confirmed by a definitely-regulatory
lane use sign (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ekNbs9q511GXnHPF9) just upstream. So the prohibition against a straight-through movement is definitely what was intended.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2025, 05:19:16 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 08:17:03 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2025, 06:16:28 PMI suppose it's worth mentioning that the lane use sign approaching the intersection matches the arrows painted on the road. No straight-through movement permitted, apparently.
Straight through onto what? It doesn't look to me like what's on the far side of the intersection is actually a city street. I think it's just a big driveway for the storage unit business. The lack of a STOP sign on the far side of the intersection reinforces that for me. And if that's the case, then there wouldn't need to be a straight-through arrow for approaching traffic.
There is a left turn from McDowell onto this road. Be it city street or not, it is clearly operating as part of the overall intersection, and not allowing straight-through movements was evidently a deliberate choice by the city since it otherwise recognizes that driveway/street.
It's not too dissimilar to this intersection in Tacoma, WA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Jrv1eG2tm66gJ2XW9). In this case, much like the Phoenix example, the driveway is recognized by the city, as there is a painted left turn lane into the driveway. And, much like the Phoenix example, there is no designated straight lane onto the driveway from the terminating roadway. Though it does have a signal leaving the driveway.
Tangent to this tangent... But can we stop to appreciate for a moment that not only does this residential driveway have its own (protected?) signal phase, but that there appears to be a signalized pedestrian crossing phase (complete with ped call buttons) to cross this driveway along a sidewalk? Never seen that before. Full setup here for this driveway...makes me wonder if there are detection loops in the driveway! :-D
Quote from: kphoger on January 22, 2025, 09:33:48 AMFor what it's worth, the pavement markings in your original example are confirmed by a definitely-regulatory lane use sign (https://maps.app.goo.gl/ekNbs9q511GXnHPF9) just upstream. So the prohibition against a straight-through movement is definitely what was intended.
I noticed that sign too, but I still don't think a prohibition of going straight is necessarily what was intended. If the city was simply choosing not to acknowledge the driveway, as you previously suggested, that logic would apply to both the pavement markings
and the lane use sign. A true prohibition of what amounts to a straight through movement would typically have
some sort of accompanying signage beyond just not acknowledging that the movement is possible.
Quote from: roadfro on January 22, 2025, 12:15:31 PM...makes me wonder if there are detection loops in the driveway! :-D
I sure hope not! (https://maps.app.goo.gl/DXcyL1vr1QZBf16j8) :awesomeface:
And hey, at least the city of Phoenix was thoughtful enough to bother with pavement markings and lane use signs, so drivers can at least intuit that they should be in the right lane if they do wish to go straight. This example near me (https://maps.app.goo.gl/h54S3jrvFuLUb1SN9) has *neither* of those things, leaving it entirely up to the imagination which lane traffic going straight is supposed to use.
And the other side of this intersection (https://maps.app.goo.gl/BkihLDDHbTW9RzMZ8) brings another brain-bender: There's a widely-ignored sign prohibiting left turns, but no pavement markings or right turn only signage. So, despite the porkchop creating an awkward approach angle, there's actually nothing prohibiting you from making the "straight" movement here. I've done it myself a whole bunch of times getting between the fast food restaurants and the Webster Plaza/Ridge Park.
The whole mess needs to be revamped and signalized (especially with a new Popeye's going up next to the Taco Bell and traffic using Van Ingen Drive to get around the perpetually congested Ridge/Hard/Shoecraft intersection), but that's another subject.
Quote from: kphoger on January 22, 2025, 01:06:52 PMQuote from: roadfro on January 22, 2025, 12:15:31 PM...makes me wonder if there are detection loops in the driveway! :-D
I sure hope not! (https://maps.app.goo.gl/DXcyL1vr1QZBf16j8) :awesomeface:
:-D
Quote from: roadfro on January 22, 2025, 12:15:31 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2025, 05:19:16 AMQuote from: kphoger on January 20, 2025, 08:17:03 PMQuote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2025, 06:16:28 PMI suppose it's worth mentioning that the lane use sign approaching the intersection matches the arrows painted on the road. No straight-through movement permitted, apparently.
Straight through onto what? It doesn't look to me like what's on the far side of the intersection is actually a city street. I think it's just a big driveway for the storage unit business. The lack of a STOP sign on the far side of the intersection reinforces that for me. And if that's the case, then there wouldn't need to be a straight-through arrow for approaching traffic.
There is a left turn from McDowell onto this road. Be it city street or not, it is clearly operating as part of the overall intersection, and not allowing straight-through movements was evidently a deliberate choice by the city since it otherwise recognizes that driveway/street.
It's not too dissimilar to this intersection in Tacoma, WA (https://maps.app.goo.gl/Jrv1eG2tm66gJ2XW9). In this case, much like the Phoenix example, the driveway is recognized by the city, as there is a painted left turn lane into the driveway. And, much like the Phoenix example, there is no designated straight lane onto the driveway from the terminating roadway. Though it does have a signal leaving the driveway.
Tangent to this tangent... But can we stop to appreciate for a moment that not only does this residential driveway have its own (protected?) signal phase, but that there appears to be a signalized pedestrian crossing phase (complete with ped call buttons) to cross this driveway along a sidewalk? Never seen that before. Full setup here for this driveway...makes me wonder if there are detection loops in the driveway! :-D
Cobb County GA
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8qWBxYYDdVhdSoPf7
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ipmW94U6Jm2QQN139
Quote from: plain on January 22, 2025, 05:00:27 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 22, 2025, 01:06:52 PMQuote from: roadfro on January 22, 2025, 12:15:31 PM...makes me wonder if there are detection loops in the driveway! :-D
I sure hope not! (https://maps.app.goo.gl/DXcyL1vr1QZBf16j8) :awesomeface:
:-D
This Tacoma intersection is really unique in that it seems like it is signalized for split-phasing with protected lefts. I don't know how that is accomplished without some type of detection on the driveway. (At least the examples in Cobb County are normal RYG signals on the side street, so they are activated when the opposing traffic triggers the signal.) I guess the homeowner is out of luck if he wants to go straight or left and nobody is coming out of the shopping center, but at least he can always go right.
But the left turn from the main street into the driveway does differ from the Phoenix example. The left turn lane is a TWTL, which is typical to access homes off a collector or arterial with a center turn lane as opposed to a dedicated left turn lane which would be used for public streets or busier driveways. It would not be appropriate to have a dedicated left turn lane to a single family residence driveway.
The homeowner here [Los Angeles] gets no signal face at all, but can probably judge what cross traffic is doing by watching the ped signal. And I bet he pushes the button so that he can leave his driveway:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0590514,-118.3718085,3a,75y,20.62h,92.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sksvdEXtt7J9N3UVD3OjHPw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D-2.9858704258237196%26panoid%3DksvdEXtt7J9N3UVD3OjHPw%26yaw%3D20.623193412805506!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
Growing up, I was aware of several intersections where a side street was opposite a driveway for a business. There was a special signal with two red light aspects facing the business driveway. Solid red (when cross street had green or yellow) or flashing red (when the opposing street had green or yellow). I suppose traffic going straight out of a business would face a flashing red (electronic stop sign) and would have to yield to side street traffic that turns left. Most of those that I recall have been transformed to regular RYG signals (Pico/Livonia/Bank Sunset/Poinsettia/supermarket) but here is one off La Tijera that still maintains the unique signal phase:
La Tijera / Knowlton / shopping center:
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9761653,-118.3732143,3a,37.5y,146.54h,81.58t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sB-B1QGb8yAltF6_LEFeYZQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D8.416090176993023%26panoid%3DB-B1QGb8yAltF6_LEFeYZQ%26yaw%3D146.53779012500402!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDEyMi4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D
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I would believe that in the Phoenix example, the straight through movement is discouraged (and might be illegal). It is probably the most difficult movement when traffic is busy to go through the entire intersection without the aid of a traffic signal. It's certainly unique.