Hello everyone, I noticed something while driving & it has to do with speed limits.
So I believe the reason speed limits are set so low is to keep all traffic at a certain maintainable speed on roads. (Yes I know a rookie roadgeek would know that, but we aren't quite finished yet).
The reason for this being for example would be that cars traveling on a highway will go atleast 70MPH if the highway is signed for 55MPH. Many people will still go above 70MPH. Now in a car when you are going at speeds 65+ it will feel pretty comfortable depending on the car and road, you wouldn't notice a difference in your speed if all cars are going as fast as you.
Now lets think of speed limits of 25-45 MPH.
When the speed limit is 25 MPH people tend to go 35-40 unless cop presence is heavy in the area. Now I can understand why the speed limit is so low, lots of people, cross streets & alot going on especially in city & neighborhoods . But this stops alot of people from pushing 50 in a unsafe space. But what I've noticed, or atleast in theory is that the speed that we go is actually the speed on the sign more or less. I say this because look at how slow you go when its 25MPH almost feels like your jogging. But then go 35-40 & it feels like 25. Same with highways. When going 80MPH it feels like a cool 65MPH.
Well thats my take on this. Id like to hear what yall think or also have noticed.
iPhone
I can relate. 65 feels like 40, 70-75 feels like 65, and so on. :hmmm:
Usually, it's one of two things:
1. They never bothered to update it after NMSL was repealed.
2. It's for "random taxing", as SP Cook calls it.
Quote from: 1 on May 02, 2019, 10:53:43 PM
Usually, it's one of two things:
1. They never bothered to update it after NMSL was repealed.
2. It's for "random taxing", as SP Cook calls it.
Yes I also meant to add that, the speed limits are set to where they can give you a ticket if they feel the need to.
iPhone
I once got pulled over for coasting from 42 to 45... in a 35. A friend of mine got pulled over for doing 39 in a 35. Top speed limits on the Interstates in my state are 80, and they said they would pull people over for doing even 81, but I've seen people do 90 or 100 for short periods of time on there, and none of them get pulled over.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what your hypothesis is.
Speed limits are set lower than they should be to prevent us from driving at unsafe speeds?
We always feel as if we are going slower than we are?
Our speedometers show us the wrong speed?
I also believe that these two statements conflict:
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2019, 10:44:00 PM
When the speed limit is 25 MPH people tend to go 35-40 unless cop presence is heavy in the area.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2019, 10:44:00 PM
But what I've noticed, or at least in theory is that the speed that we go is actually the speed on the sign more or less.
Quote from: webny99 on May 03, 2019, 10:19:23 AM
I'm not sure I understand exactly what your hypothesis is.
Speed limits are set lower than they should be to prevent us from driving at unsafe speeds?
We always feel as if we are going slower than we are?
Our speedometers show us the wrong speed?
I also believe that these two statements conflict:
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2019, 10:44:00 PM
When the speed limit is 25 MPH people tend to go 35-40 unless cop presence is heavy in the area.
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2019, 10:44:00 PM
But what I've noticed, or at least in theory is that the speed that we go is actually the speed on the sign more or less.
Sorry for the confusion web. What im saying is, if people are going 80 MPH it is actually 65. But they dont sign the road as 80 so people won't go 100+.
The speed limits are set low, but in reality the actual speed that everyone goes is the speed they set for the road & expect everyone to go. If that makes sense.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2019, 10:44:00 PM
When the speed limit is 25 MPH people tend to go 35-40 unless cop presence is heavy in the area. Now I can understand why the speed limit is so low, lots of people, cross streets & alot going on especially in city & neighborhoods . But this stops alot of people from pushing 50 in a unsafe space. But what I've noticed, or atleast in theory is that the speed that we go is actually the speed on the sign more or less. I say this because look at how slow you go when its 25MPH almost feels like your jogging. But then go 35-40 & it feels like 25. Same with highways. When going 80MPH it feels like a cool 65MPH.
Well thats my take on this. Id like to hear what yall think or also have noticed.
iPhone
Looking at the other extreme, if the speed limit was set to 50 mph through downtown, very few people would feel comfortable driving that fast. In a downtown area there are pedestrians, bicyclists, people pulling out of on-street parking. There does reach a point where people will only drive as fast as they feel comfortable, regardless to what the speed limit is. This is seen along rough sections of road that are in bad need of an overlay. Even if it is signed for 50 mph, i might go 5 under if it means i can avoid the biggest of the potholes and save my suspension or prevent a blowout.
Quote from: tradephoric on May 03, 2019, 11:43:53 AM
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2019, 10:44:00 PM
When the speed limit is 25 MPH people tend to go 35-40 unless cop presence is heavy in the area. Now I can understand why the speed limit is so low, lots of people, cross streets & alot going on especially in city & neighborhoods . But this stops alot of people from pushing 50 in a unsafe space. But what I've noticed, or atleast in theory is that the speed that we go is actually the speed on the sign more or less. I say this because look at how slow you go when its 25MPH almost feels like your jogging. But then go 35-40 & it feels like 25. Same with highways. When going 80MPH it feels like a cool 65MPH.
Well thats my take on this. Id like to hear what yall think or also have noticed.
iPhone
Looking at the other extreme, if the speed limit was set to 50 mph through downtown, very few people would feel comfortable driving that fast. In a downtown area there are pedestrians, bicyclists, people pulling out of on-street parking. There does reach a point where people will only drive as fast as they feel comfortable, regardless to what the speed limit is. This is seen along rough sections of road that are in bad need of an overlay. Even if it is signed for 50 mph, i might go 5 under if it means i can avoid the biggest of the potholes and save my suspension or prevent a blowout.
Yes this is true, Ive noticed it on highways that are signed @70MPH. Most people wont go above that or it feels uncomfortable if you go faster. Or if you know the road or dont know the road you may speed or go less then the MPH posted.
But I've witnessed traffic going 50MPH in a city its very possible. Ask the people here that know the Philly Tri-State area. Chestnut street in Philly is treated like I-95. [emoji28]
I just feel as if the speed limits & our car speedometers are offset.
iPhone
Increasing the speed limit by 10 mph increases actual average driver speed by 3 mph, unless the speed limit is already set high (such as TX 130). It's not an infinite cycle of increase limit → increase driver speed → increase limit; the two will eventually be the same with enough of an increase.
Quote from: 1 on May 03, 2019, 12:11:08 PM
Increasing the speed limit by 10 mph increases actual average driver speed by 3 mph, unless the speed limit is already set high (such as TX 130). It's not an infinite cycle of increase limit → increase driver speed → increase limit; the two will eventually be the same with enough of an increase.
Could you explain that in regular English please, I still have to complete college.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 04, 2019, 04:23:04 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 03, 2019, 12:11:08 PM
Increasing the speed limit by 10 mph increases actual average driver speed by 3 mph, unless the speed limit is already set high (such as TX 130). It's not an infinite cycle of increase limit → increase driver speed → increase limit; the two will eventually be the same with enough of an increase.
Could you explain that in regular English please, I still have to complete college.
iPhone
For example, if the speed limit is 65 and the average is 79, increasing the speed limit by 10 (to 75) will increase the average speed by 3 (to 82). At 85, the average speed and the speed limit would be the same.
This is true for freeways; I don't know if it also applies to arterials.
Quote from: 1 on May 03, 2019, 12:11:08 PM
Increasing the speed limit by 10 mph increases actual average driver speed by 3 mph, unless the speed limit is already set high (such as TX 130). It's not an infinite cycle of increase limit → increase driver speed → increase limit; the two will eventually be the same with enough of an increase.
What's the source on this? I don't necessarily doubt you but that sounds counter-intuitive to me.
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on May 04, 2019, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 03, 2019, 12:11:08 PM
Increasing the speed limit by 10 mph increases actual average driver speed by 3 mph, unless the speed limit is already set high (such as TX 130). It's not an infinite cycle of increase limit → increase driver speed → increase limit; the two will eventually be the same with enough of an increase.
What's the source on this? I don't necessarily doubt you but that sounds counter-intuitive to me.
I don't know if this is a general finding, but I've seen a study or two that said this is what happened on certain roads where the speed limit increased. To use an extreme, imagine if the speed limit were increased to 700 mph. The average driver would not go 710. You always have idiots who want to go 150 on the freeway and go 80 in a 40, but "speed limit plus X," where X is the margin you believe law enforcement will tolerate, doesn't continue unendingly. Once you get to the highest speed you're comfortable with, a higher speed limit won't change anything.
Another point is that when the average speed increases, that may be substantially accounted for by people like me who obey the speed limit driving faster since it's now allowed. It isn't all because of people still going 5 over or 10 over whatever the speed limit is.
Before the statewide speed limit in Texas went up to 75, on the rural Interstates where the limit was 70 most traffic moved at 70 to 75. After the increase, most of the traffic moves at about the same speed. At times I pass quite a bit going 75. That suggests to me that the speed limit is where it should be. On freeways devoid of traffic, speeds are a little higher, generally 75 to 80. On those roads I get passed more than pass others at 75. Where traffic is thicker most people aren't quite comfortable at those speeds.
Quote from: wxfree on May 04, 2019, 10:49:27 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on May 04, 2019, 05:34:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 03, 2019, 12:11:08 PM
Increasing the speed limit by 10 mph increases actual average driver speed by 3 mph, unless the speed limit is already set high (such as TX 130). It's not an infinite cycle of increase limit → increase driver speed → increase limit; the two will eventually be the same with enough of an increase.
What's the source on this? I don't necessarily doubt you but that sounds counter-intuitive to me.
I don't know if this is a general finding, but I've seen a study or two that said this is what happened on certain roads where the speed limit increased. To use an extreme, imagine if the speed limit were increased to 700 mph. The average driver would not go 710. You always have idiots who want to go 150 on the freeway and go 80 in a 40, but "speed limit plus X," where X is the margin you believe law enforcement will tolerate, doesn't continue unendingly. Once you get to the highest speed you're comfortable with, a higher speed limit won't change anything.
Another point is that when the average speed increases, that may be substantially accounted for by people like me who obey the speed limit driving faster since it's now allowed. It isn't all because of people still going 5 over or 10 over whatever the speed limit is.
Before the statewide speed limit in Texas went up to 75, on the rural Interstates where the limit was 70 most traffic moved at 70 to 75. After the increase, most of the traffic moves at about the same speed. At times I pass quite a bit going 75. That suggests to me that the speed limit is where it should be. On freeways devoid of traffic, speeds are a little higher, generally 75 to 80. On those roads I get passed more than pass others at 75. Where traffic is thicker most people aren't quite comfortable at those speeds.
From what I have seen, Texas posts reasonable speed limits and therefore seldom has to enforce them. California posts some quite unreasonable speed limits and seldom tries to enforce them. I-5 between I-580 and the I-5/CASR-99 split could easily stand an auto speed limit of 85 MPH or certainly 130 km/h with a 10% tolerance (5% for you and 5% for the cop). What I understand is that between CASR-41 and CASR-46 (especially from Utica Ave to Twissleman Rd) CHP mostly writes $1000+ tickets for CVC 22348 (over 100 MPH). They may still bust you for 95, but, if they get you for 100+, they have both enhanced safety and revenue. It costs more in OT pay to get the officer to court than you will be fined, if you change your plea to guilty, if the officer shows up, for a typical 85/70 ticket.
I'm not telling you that its OK to break the law, but a ticket for 99/70 is a ticket in California. 100/70 in California is treated more like a crime.
It depends on your vehicle. My 2000 Blazer felt that over 60 mph I was traveling 85 mph, but now I got my Kia Forte, when I go 85 mph it feels like 65 mph.
If you have a small car it feels like you are standing still at low speed limits, hence I have to really watch it in school zones as in Florida the speed limit during school hours of going or coming is 15 mph or 20 mph, so I really have to be careful. The SUV's or mini vans are the other way around due to their big mass and high point of gravity of the vehicle.
Then on the NJ Turnpike with its long and fat pavement striping it really does seem like you are going 40 mph when doing 55 mph due to the illusion created by the longer broken lines. So my car now would feel like I am in a school zone in FL if I do 55 on the NJ Turnpike.
Definitely. Driving the speed limit on the freeways and some surface streets here (especially school zones) feels PAINFUL on my Civic but perfectly fine on the Dodge Caravan we use for some functions at work. And even 80 feels slow on the NJ Turnpike.
Just go to "reasonable and prudent" outside urban centers. Then there's no issue.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 10, 2019, 09:33:48 PM
Just go to "reasonable and prudent" outside urban centers. Then there's no issue.
Montana's short-lived experience with this would indicate that there are actually a lot of issues with this approach.
Edit: looking at your post again I can't tell if you're suggesting we get rid of rural speed limits or just offering driving advice.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 10, 2019, 09:33:48 PM
Just go to "reasonable and prudent" outside urban centers. Then there's no issue.
Funny you say this, New Jersey I feel like does this. They seem to put "65 MPH Zone, fines & something else doubled" but then you won't see these signs for a while. So its like you can go "reasonable & prudent" within the safe zones.
iPhone
At least around where I live people generally ignore the speed limit and go with the flow. This is common on highways like I-75, I-69, US-10, US-23, US-127, I-96, I-94 and so on. When I'm driving 80 mph it's crazy how much traffic is still passing me doing over 80.
According to research All roads have a "Natural speed" it wont matter if you raise it or lower it.
https://priceonomics.com/is-every-speed-limit-too-low/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app (https://priceonomics.com/is-every-speed-limit-too-low/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app)
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on May 02, 2019, 10:44:00 PM
Hello everyone, I noticed something while driving & it has to do with speed limits.
So I believe the reason speed limits are set so low is to keep all traffic at a certain maintainable speed on roads. (Yes I know a rookie roadgeek would know that, but we aren't quite finished yet).
The reason for this being for example would be that cars traveling on a highway will go atleast 70MPH if the highway is signed for 55MPH. Many people will still go above 70MPH. Now in a car when you are going at speeds 65+ it will feel pretty comfortable depending on the car and road, you wouldn't notice a difference in your speed if all cars are going as fast as you.
Now lets think of speed limits of 25-45 MPH.
When the speed limit is 25 MPH people tend to go 35-40 unless cop presence is heavy in the area. Now I can understand why the speed limit is so low, lots of people, cross streets & alot going on especially in city & neighborhoods . But this stops alot of people from pushing 50 in a unsafe space. But what I've noticed, or atleast in theory is that the speed that we go is actually the speed on the sign more or less. I say this because look at how slow you go when its 25MPH almost feels like your jogging. But then go 35-40 & it feels like 25. Same with highways. When going 80MPH it feels like a cool 65MPH.
Well thats my take on this. Id like to hear what yall think or also have noticed.
iPhone
In the US, the National Maximum Speed Law gave everyone who could drive or who was conscious of others' driving disrespect for speed limits. Roads with design speeds of 80+MPH (and probably many of those were safe close to 100MPH) were, by law, set down to 55MPH. Since 55MPH was the limit on the best, safest, and fastest roads, speed limits on narrower, twistier, less equipped roads had to be lowered to show the difference. The law enacted in 1975 and was only modified so as to permit 65MPH on the best roads in 1985. Finally, the law was repealed in 1995. Now, that's nearly 25 years ago, but the legacy of speed limits that were set too low and the contempt for speed limits won't die for years.
Both California and Texas effectively revived their pre-1974 laws rather quickly. California was a little slow to enact its 70MPH limit everywhere that it could go, but has mostly done so (some areas got much more populated since 1974 and were left at 65MPH). Should most of those 70MPH areas be raised? Sure! Should many of the 65MPH areas be raised. Some should some shouldn't. But, since 65MPH is as high as non-freeways can go under state law, unless the law is changed (and that's tough with as many city people {with "D"s next to their names} in the legislature now who don't see what the rural folks do).
Texas, on the other hand, has given broad authority to its highway department to post reasonable speed limits. 70MPH though downtown Austin on I-35? Sure, except when exits are too close together, etc. 85MPH on intercity tollways? Why not? 60MPH on a flat section of county road in suburban Austin between two hills? What's wrong with that? It's 35MPH on one side and 45MPH on the other side, but 60MPH in the middle. Guess what? Texas State Police have better things to do than pull over drivers just trying to get someplace who aren't a hazard to others. California Highway Patrol has a similar mission. They basically try to do what Texas State Police do, but they look like they are giving you a break.
Meanwhile, for many parts of the northeast, NMSL may as well have never been repealed. PA's getting better, but there are many areas where the speed limit drops to 55 for no reason other than the road passed into an area classified by the census bureau as an "urban area", regardless of conditions. NY didn't even bother to raise even so much as a single mile of interstate above 55 until after NMSL was already repealed and Mario Cuomo was replaced by a Republican.
Meanwhile in Canada, Ontario and Québec have kept their NMSL equivalents to this day, though Ontario will be beginning a small pilot project to raise the limit to 110 on a couple roads.
Quote from: vdeane on July 13, 2019, 09:56:34 PM
NY didn't even bother to raise even so much as a single mile of interstate above 55 until after NMSL was already repealed and Mario Cuomo was replaced by a Republican.
On the other hand, they post 55 for roads that would be 35 to 40 in most other states.
Quote from: 1 on July 13, 2019, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 13, 2019, 09:56:34 PM
NY didn't even bother to raise even so much as a single mile of interstate above 55 until after NMSL was already repealed and Mario Cuomo was replaced by a Republican.
On the other hand, they post 55 for roads that would be 35 to 40 in most other states.
Even Texas? :wow:
I imagine those roads he's talking about are the curvy ones that are signed 55 because that's the default and nobody's going to do a speed study and post a ton of signs for a lower limit if the advisory signs are working fine and nobody's asking for a decrease.
Quote from: vdeane on July 13, 2019, 11:12:51 PM
I imagine those roads he's talking about are the curvy ones that are signed 55 because that's the default and nobody's going to do a speed study and post a ton of signs for a lower limit if the advisory signs are working fine and nobody's asking for a decrease.
I recall this one road in Texas (I'm not going to take the time to check which one ATM) west of San Antonio that's extremely curvy, narrow, and my maximum speed only got up to 38 mph on the entire stretch. The entire road was posted at 55 mph even though there's no way you could do that.
Once it straightened out, 55 mph felt appropriate, but then it just jumped to 70 mph.
Quote from: 1 on July 13, 2019, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 13, 2019, 09:56:34 PM
NY didn't even bother to raise even so much as a single mile of interstate above 55 until after NMSL was already repealed and Mario Cuomo was replaced by a Republican.
On the other hand, they post 55 for roads that would be 35 to 40 in most other states.
The 55 limits in rural areas are nice, but NYSDOT will rarely just tell you straight out. For years the standard practice in some regions was to just post "END XX MPH LIMIT" signs at the end of the speed zone and force drivers to figure it out. Out of state drivers especially tend to skim the sign and assume the big number is the speed limit.
I think the car factors into this as well. I had driven from DFW to Salt Lake in a 2005 Kia Rio in August of 2007. I wanted to see what the little car could do on I-70 in Utah, so I pushed the pedal to the max and got up to 110 before I lost my nerve. The car was shimmying and shaking so bad, I thought the wheels were going to fall off. That car shimmied anytime I went over 55 the entire time I owned it.
Fast forward to last Saturday, I was driving 85-90 on US 127 in Northern Michigan (speed limit is 75) in a 2015 Hyundai Accent and the car felt smooth as silk.
MassDOT (and formerly MassHighway) use thicker stripes for roads on the Cape. Makes the roads appear more narrow. Granted, you're lucky if you break 5 under on a state highway out there. People are just oblivious to speed limits.
I agree that NY is good about posting 55 mph (or "end XX mph limit", which means default to 55 mph); not so much in developed areas, but certainly in areas that aren't too heavily populated. I figure population density and terrain are the main causes for the difference between Upstate NY and New England in this regard.
Quote from: webny99 on July 15, 2019, 02:03:41 PM
I agree that NY is good about posting 55 mph (or "end XX mph limit", which means default to 55 mph); not so much in developed areas, but certainly in areas that aren't too heavily populated. I figure population density and terrain are the main causes for the difference between Upstate NY and New England in this regard.
Well NYS speed laws are different than most New England STATES. All public roads here have to have a posted speed limit. The only state that doesn't, I think, is VT which has a basic speed limit of 50mph when one isn't posted.
Quote from: 1 on July 13, 2019, 10:02:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 13, 2019, 09:56:34 PM
NY didn't even bother to raise even so much as a single mile of interstate above 55 until after NMSL was already repealed and Mario Cuomo was replaced by a Republican.
On the other hand, they post 55 for roads that would be 35 to 40 in most other states.
New York is weird with speed limits because they only get reviewed when a municipality wants it lowered. NYSDOT doesn't do speed studies by their own volition. I've seen busy surface arterials at 55 MPH and as soon as it clips a dinky little village or city, it drops to 30 for no reason.
Quote from: michravera on July 13, 2019, 07:11:04 PMIn the US, the National Maximum Speed Law gave everyone who could drive or who was conscious of others' driving disrespect for speed limits. Roads with design speeds of 80+MPH (and probably many of those were safe close to 100MPH) were, by law, set down to 55MPH. Since 55MPH was the limit on the best, safest, and fastest roads, speed limits on narrower, twistier, less equipped roads had to be lowered to show the difference. The law enacted in 1975 and was only modified so as to permit 65MPH on the best roads in 1985. Finally, the law was repealed in 1995. Now, that's nearly 25 years ago, but the legacy of speed limits that were set too low and the contempt for speed limits won't die for years.
Your timelime/history with regards to when the National Maximum Speed Limit (NMSL) is a tad off.
Such was initially enacted as an emergency (read
temporary) reaction to the skyrocketing gas prices & related gas lines that took place in October 1973. Originally, the maximum was set at 50 (hence, is where the catchy
Fifty is Thrifty phrase came from). As short time later (early 1974(?)), the maximum was bumped up to 55. This emergency/temporary measure was
supposed to expire by mid-1975 but either such was overlooked or legislation was signed making such permanent.
Note the political listings below are strictly
for historical purposes/context only.
Efforts to repeal 55 gained some momentum during the 1980 Presidential campaign. Then-GOP candidate Ronald Reagan mentioned such as a campaign promise. Such came on the heals of the second gas price spikes/long lines that started again in early 1979. While Reagan would ultimately be elected President that year; due to the NMSL being an Act of Congress, only another Act of Congress could repeal such (i.e. repealing such via Executive Order was not allowed). While the Senate became under GOP control, the House of Representatives was still under control of the Democrats; as a result, legislation containing a repeal of the NMSL languished... until 1987.
In an effort to throw President Reagan a bone in signing a very expensive & controversial highway bill (that gave the green light for funding Boston's Big Dig project) into law; a provision that would allow states to raise their maximum speed limit along rural Interstates to 65 was placed in the bill. Despite that provision, President Reagan still vetoed the bill due to its price tag and the House & Senate (both of which had Democrat majorities then) successfully over-rode the veto & the 65 mph speed limit returned, in limited fashion, after a 13+ year absence. While many states jumped on the 65-mph bandwagon; many, mostly northeastern states that had Democrat governors in office, maintained the maximum 55 mph speed limit. Slowly but surely, those hold-out states would ultimately raise their rural Interstate speed limit to 65. Usually such happened when a state's governor's seat changed hands as well as political parties.
As you mentioned earlier, the final blow to the NMSL came in 1995 when the then-GOP controlled US House & Senate placed a provision to repeal the NMSL in a highway spending bill that then-President Clinton signed into law.
Despite the NMSL being gone for now-24 years, very few northeastern states have raised their limits beyond 65; although many have added 65 zones to more highways (including non-Interstates).
PA's adoption of the 65 NMSL for its rural Interstates took place just prior to the full-blown repeal of NMSL. Such was probably one reason why it took a couple years to at least add 65 zones to some rural non-Interstates. However & as someone indirectly mentioned earlier; aside from the I-76, 276 & 476 stretches of the PA Turnpike being posted at 70 (courtesy of Act 89 & the PTC not wanting to have several different speed zones in their system), no other freeway in the Greater Philadelphia (southeastern PA) area has increased beyond 55... even though the average speeds on many of those roads (when such aren't gridlocked during rush hours) are indeed higher.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 23, 2019, 02:55:43 PM
In an effort to throw President Reagan a bone in signing a very expensive & controversial highway bill (that gave the green light for funding Boston's Big Dig project) into law; a provision that would allow states to raise their maximum speed limit along rural Interstates to 65 was placed in the bill. Despite that provision, President Reagan still vetoed the bill due to its price tag and the House & Senate (both of which had Democrat majorities then) successfully over-rode the veto & the 65 mph speed limit returned, in limited fashion, after a 13+ year absence. While many states jumped on the 65-mph bandwagon; many, mostly northeastern states that had Democrat governors in office, maintained the maximum 55 mph speed limit. Slowly but surely, those hold-out states would ultimately raise their rural Interstate speed limit to 65. Usually such happened when a state's governor's seat changed hands as well as political parties.
And this is why, as only rural interstates, not other non-interstate freeways, that interstates such as the western I-88, I-39, I-335, and a few others were created. These would've been simply US, state, or unnumbered highway freeways otherwise (IL-5, US-51, and Kansas Turnpike).
However, I had noticed, even back then, that some states seemed to stick to the letter of the law while others posted 65 on non-interstate rural freeways.
Quote from: Brandon on July 23, 2019, 03:15:24 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 23, 2019, 02:55:43 PM
In an effort to throw President Reagan a bone in signing a very expensive & controversial highway bill (that gave the green light for funding Boston's Big Dig project) into law; a provision that would allow states to raise their maximum speed limit along rural Interstates to 65 was placed in the bill. Despite that provision, President Reagan still vetoed the bill due to its price tag and the House & Senate (both of which had Democrat majorities then) successfully over-rode the veto & the 65 mph speed limit returned, in limited fashion, after a 13+ year absence. While many states jumped on the 65-mph bandwagon; many, mostly northeastern states that had Democrat governors in office, maintained the maximum 55 mph speed limit. Slowly but surely, those hold-out states would ultimately raise their rural Interstate speed limit to 65. Usually such happened when a state's governor's seat changed hands as well as political parties.
And this is why, as only rural interstates, not other non-interstate freeways, that interstates such as the western I-88, I-39, I-335, and a few others were created. These would've been simply US, state, or unnumbered highway freeways otherwise (IL-5, US-51, and Kansas Turnpike).
Don't forget the stretch of the Maine Turnpike between Falmouth & Gardiner. Such was originally unnumbered but was later designated (initially) as I-495 so that such could get a 65 mph limit. Such later became part of I-95 when Maine converted to mile-marker-based interchange numbers circa 2004.
How fast was the average speed for cars when the NMSL went into affect? I know cars weren't as aerodynamic as they are today. I think the median speed limit most people go today is between 75-80. What was the median speed back then 60-70? As the cars & roads are made safer we will probably be a good median speed of 90-100MPH! Imagine how fast you can get to places on a highway going safely @100MPH.
The fact that everyone ignores the speed limit expect when its inclement weather. Even speed raders are often set off @ 5-7 MPH the actual speed. DOTs know the speed limit is bullshit. But there are too many variables with raise the speed limit. From old cars still on the toad to people who hog the left lane. Until the risky variables are taken off the road the speed will not increase.
iPhone
Quote from: Tonytone on July 23, 2019, 04:24:48 PM
How fast was the average speed for cars when the NMSL went into affect? I know cars weren't as aerodynamic as they are today. I think the median speed limit most people go today is between 75-80. What was the median speed back then 60-70? As the cars & roads are made safer we will probably be a good median speed of 90-100MPH! Imagine how fast you can get to places on a highway going safely @100MPH.
The fact that everyone ignores the speed limit expect when its inclement weather. Even speed raders are often set off @ 5-7 MPH the actual speed. DOTs know the speed limit is bullshit. But there are too many variables with raise the speed limit. From old cars still on the toad to people who hog the left lane. Until the risky variables are taken off the road the speed will not increase.
iPhone
Do you know what median is? Half the cars are not going faster than 80 mph!
Quote from: Tonytone on July 23, 2019, 04:24:48 PM
From old cars still on the toad to people who hog the left lane. Until the risky variables are taken off the road the speed will not increase.
Did you forget cars aren't the only vehicles on the road? Trucks, buses, etc. represent a good portion of the traffic on the highways and it's not easy for them to do 75 - 85 mph like the rest of us and maintain it.
As many people I know say: "Speed limit is more of a suggestion". Flow of traffic is always faster than the limit around here so you just have to adapt and stay with the crowd. Means doing 70-75mph in a 55 zone, 80 in a 70 zone, etc... or running the risk of being "ran off the road".
Funny enough, today is speed awareness day in Illinois where ISP will be cracking down on speeding. Curious to see how that goes.
Science teaches us that understand. Speed is self regulating. People will drive safe (and fast) when left alone to do so without the need of signage or random taxing highway men. Speed limits are about power and money, and, sadly, in many cases, race, class, gender, and age.
Raise the SL to a point that there is no money in enforcement, order the cops off the highway and down where serious crimes are committed, and enjoy freedom.
Quote from: SP Cook on July 24, 2019, 09:51:05 AM
Science teaches us that understand. Speed is self regulating. People will drive safe (and fast) when left alone to do so without the need of signage or random taxing highway men. Speed limits are about power and money, and, sadly, in many cases, race, class, gender, and age.
Raise the SL to a point that there is no money in enforcement, order the cops off the highway and down where serious crimes are committed, and enjoy freedom.
Reminds me the fact that doing over 80 mph or 20 mph over the speed limit in Virginia is a reckless driving charge which is a criminal offense with up to 12 months in jail or $2,500 fines.
The speed limit on most rural interstate highways is 70 mph, so that means if you're going with the flow of traffic doing as little as 10 mph over, you risk a punishment that high.
Doing 80 mph on a rural interstate highway is not reckless. It's a ridiculous law that's strictly a revenue generator.
Leaving Virginia, I was in Maryland the other day driving down US-301 on the Eastern Shore. The highway has a full interstate-highway cross section, two 12 foot lanes each way, a 10 foot right shoulder, 4 foot left shoulder, and a 60 foot grassy median. The highway has limited-access which prohibits private connections, only at-grade intersections at permitted at minor roadways, and interchanges at larger junctions. The design of the roadway would naturally call for a 70 mph speed limit, and when I was on it, everybody was traveling at least 68 mph, many doing 75 - 80 mph. I maintained 73 mph the entire way and did not have any safety concerns or issues, no sharp curves, no blinding intersections, etc. However, because the roadway is not a "freeway" and it's in the northeastern states, the speed limit is an absurdly low 55 mph for a 40-mile-long rural stretch.
Go to Texas however, and just about every roadway in rural areas that has no access control is posted at 70 to 75 mph, including two-lane roadways or four-lane roadways. Interstate highways and freeways with limited-access are posted at 75 mph. Heading west, long stretches of I-10, I-20, and I-40 have 80 mph speed limits, and in the Austin area in the middle part of the state, TX-130, a four-lane limited-access toll road, has an 80 mph speed limit for its northern half, and 85 mph for the southern half.
Even states like West Virginia, Alabama, Florida, Georgia, etc. permit 65 mph on any four-lane highway, which is somewhat more reasonable than 55 mph or even 60 mph as Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Indiana permit.
Quote from: Tonytone on July 23, 2019, 04:24:48 PMHow fast was the average speed for cars when the NMSL went into affect?
When the Interstate Highway System was first established circa 1956; it was assumed that the average speed along those highways (when built) would be 65 to 70 mph.
From the mid-50s through the late 60s; performance got more emphasis across all car lines (many of which debuted during the 60s). While a bare-bones 6-cylinder sedan probably would not reach a top speed of 100 mph; that same vehicle with an optional big-block V8 would easily top out over 120 mph & do 7 to 8 second 0 to 60 acceleration times.
A 1969 Dodge Polara full-size sedan w/the 440 Magnum cubic inch engine could obtain a top speed of 149 mph. That particular engine was also available on retail/civilian models as well back then. A friend of my brother's had a '69 Chrysler 300 coupe equipped with that same exact engine. Such, for a police-packaged
sedan would remain a record until the 2006 Dodge Charger Pursuit w/the 5.7L V8 topped out at 152 mph.
By the early 70s with the combination of newly-enacted emissions regulations coupled with spikes in auto insurance rates; many then-new vehicles got detuned and the performance (mainly acceleration) rates showed. Muscle cars, which were essentially mid-size coupes with sportier appointments & available high-output engines morphed into personal-luxury coupes; a '75 Dodge Charger looked like a poor-man's Chrysler Cordoba. That said, many of such vehicles (when new) could still cruise at 65 to 75 mph with no real issues; such would just take a little longer to get to those cruising speeds (10+ second 0 to 60 times became the norm for most mainstream vehicles).
Prior to the implementation of the NMSL, most car speedometers (police packages & sports cars excluded) were calibrated 0-120 mph (during the late 60s, Ford placed a red-line that started at 70 and went beyond) while trucks & vans featured 0-100 mph speedometers. When the NMSL took effect, several manufacturers cut their speedometer calibrations down to 0-100 mph. The rationale for doing such was so that 55 mph would still be
beyond the half-way mark. The much hated/maligned 0-85 mph calibrations started showing up on cars circa 1977 and such was applied on trucks & vans as well. For the 1980 model year, the calibration markings were done in the 5-15-25, etc. manner with 55 being either highlighted in a different color or a box placed around it (aka
TV 55). Even sports cars like the Corvette featured the shortened speedometers out of the factory. While some models started offering longer calibrated speedometers during the mid-to-late 80s; it wouldn't be until the mid 90s when the last 0-85 mph speedometers were phased out completely. The fact that such happened right when the NMSL was fully repealed seemed to be more of a coincidence.
Early on, many vehicles that ditched the 0-85 speedometers
initially reverted back to the prior 0-120 mph calibrations. However & over time, many mainstream vehicles have since gone the other extreme IMHO in calibrating their speedometers 0-140 or even 0-160. Such means that 65 mph or even 70 mph is only or less than half-way along the speedometer. While some would argue that the reason for doing such is because many of these models are offered in other countries (mostly in Europe) where there are
either no speed limit
s (portions of Germany's Autobahn) or possibly higher limits (?); the truth of the matter is, like the fact that 80 to 85 mph speed limits are only restricted to a handful of areas/roads in the US, not every road/highway in
said-European countries Germany's Autobahn network have no speed limits. Many of them probably have posted 110-120 km/h (65 to 75 mph) limits as well.
The way I've always thought automobiling in the 50s until 1990 is that the automatic transmission muted performance in production vehicles across the board. But because they were automatic everyone wanted one, so by 1970 you had people driving cars that would never go faster than 80mph.
Quote from: ET21 on July 24, 2019, 09:25:36 AM
As many people I know say: "Speed limit is more of a suggestion". Flow of traffic is always faster than the limit around here so you just have to adapt and stay with the crowd. Means doing 70-75mph in a 55 zone, 80 in a 70 zone, etc... or running the risk of being "ran off the road".
Funny enough, today is speed awareness day in Illinois where ISP will be cracking down on speeding. Curious to see how that goes.
Probably like any other day. Of course, the state's broke, and Pritzker probably wants more money (without cutting a damned thing).
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 24, 2019, 11:06:02 AM
While some would argue that the reason for doing such is because many of these models are offered in other countries (mostly in Europe) where there are no speed limits; the truth of the matter is, like the fact that 80 to 85 mph speed limits are only restricted to a handful of areas/roads in the US, not every road/highway in said-European countries have no speed limits. Many of them probably have posted 110-120 km/h (65 to 75 mph) limits as well.
Other than the Autobahn in Germany, what European country has roads with no speed limit?
Quote from: kphoger on July 24, 2019, 01:36:27 PMOther than the Autobahn in Germany, what European country has roads with no speed limit?
Off hand, I'm not aware of any; but in case someone knew of such I wasn't aware of, I worded my original post to be open-ended.
I have since revised my post to specifically refer to Germany's Autobahn for roads that have no speed limit; although I have been told in the past that not every road in Germany's Autobahn network has no speed limit.
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 24, 2019, 03:13:33 PM
I have been told in the past that not every road in Germany's Autobahn network has no speed limit.
That is certainly true. But it is the only road network I'm aware of in Europe that has
any portion with no speed limit.
Quote from: kphoger on July 24, 2019, 04:49:53 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on July 24, 2019, 03:13:33 PM
I have been told in the past that not every road in Germany's Autobahn network has no speed limit.
That is certainly true. But it is the only road network I'm aware of in Europe that has any portion with no speed limit.
It's tiny, but the Isle of Man has no speed limit.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 23, 2019, 05:36:40 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on July 23, 2019, 04:24:48 PM
From old cars still on the toad to people who hog the left lane. Until the risky variables are taken off the road the speed will not increase.
Did you forget cars aren't the only vehicles on the road? Trucks, buses, etc. represent a good portion of the traffic on the highways and it's not easy for them to do 75 - 85 mph like the rest of us and maintain it.
Nope I did not forget. Buses seem to only be an issue on the streets they have stops, they have to stop & go so that slows traffic a little. Only a little. Same goes for the trucks even though their acceleration is much slower sometimes. 2 Axle vehicles use the right lane most of the time. So unless its a two lane highway there would be no problem if slow vehicles sticked to the right lane & people drove concisely. (Speeding drives too).
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Quote from: sprjus4 on July 24, 2019, 10:11:55 AM
Reminds me the fact that doing over 80 mph or 20 mph over the speed limit in Virginia is a reckless driving charge which is a criminal offense with up to 12 months in jail or $2,500 fines.
The speed limit on most rural interstate highways is 70 mph, so that means if you're going with the flow of traffic doing as little as 10 mph over, you risk a punishment that high.
Doing 80 mph on a rural interstate highway is not reckless. It's a ridiculous law that's strictly a revenue generator.
Technically, going over 80 gives the officer the *option* to cite someone for reckless driving. It's not mandatory. Going to jail is not a revenue generator - in fact, it costs the state more money than simply fining someone. It's a ridiculous law, but I bet it does keep speeds in check in that state. And to be fair, most states have some sort of law that significantly increases penalties for high rates of speed; VA is just either the most well known, the most talked about, or the most stringent. For what it's worth, on I-95, you'll find plenty of people going over 80 mph.
Quote
...However, because the roadway is not a "freeway" and it's in the northeastern states, the speed limit is an absurdly low 55 mph for a 40-mile-long rural stretch.
Has nothing to do with Northeastern states. Has everything to do with how Maryland chooses to post the speed limit on that particular roadway.
Quote from: ET21 on July 24, 2019, 09:25:36 AM
As many people I know say: "Speed limit is more of a suggestion". Flow of traffic is always faster than the limit around here so you just have to adapt and stay with the crowd. Means doing 70-75mph in a 55 zone, 80 in a 70 zone, etc... or running the risk of being "ran off the road".
I always found it interesting how people think their area is somewhat unique when it comes to speeding. The fact is, EVERY area has people going faster than the speed limit.
As for being run off the road, while many people think that the speed they're doing is the speed everyone is doing, there are actually people going 55 or 60 mph out there too. If you're finding yourself passing more people than are passing you, you're just driving faster.
QuoteFunny enough, today is speed awareness day in Illinois where ISP will be cracking down on speeding. Curious to see how that goes.
They'll have a press release saying they pulled over X number of vehicles. The media will make mention of it. But when there's so many vehicles going 15 or 20 mph over the limit, they're not looking for the guy going 5 mph over, or even 10 mph over.
If they really wanted to bring in revenue, they wouldn't announce a crackdown on speeding. They would just do it. It's more publicity to try to get people to slow down.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 08:12:58 AM
If they really wanted to bring in revenue, they wouldn't announce a crackdown on speeding. They would just do it. It's more publicity to try to get people to slow down.
Well, not exactly. It is mostly to reinforce the incorrect belief that underposted SLs "save lives" and more broadly that SL enforcement is about "safety" rather than money and power. So every so often they announce some idiotic "crackdown" and send Trooper Tommy out to spew about "safety" and other such. It keeps the useful idiots that believe in underposted SLs in their corner.
No reporter in these situations has ever had the sense, or courage, to ask Trooper Tommy why the doom and gloom predictions of what would happen when the NMSL was repealed were DEAD WRONG; or why if driving at the SL "saves lives", he never does so.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 08:12:58 AM
Has nothing to do with Northeastern states. Has everything to do with how Maryland chooses to post the speed limit on that particular roadway.
There is a definite paradigm in the states in the greater northeast region of the country that nothing with at-grades can ever have a speed limit higher than 55.
Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 08:12:58 AM
Has nothing to do with Northeastern states. Has everything to do with how Maryland chooses to post the speed limit on that particular roadway.
There is a definite paradigm in the states in the greater northeast region of the country that nothing with at-grades can ever have a speed limit higher than 55.
I wonder if any state will ever change that to make a reasonable speed limit on at-grades.
I'm hoping Maryland would be the first. Those interstate-standard, limited-access roadways (again with the exception of those intersections) can easily handle 65 or 70 mph.
Its neighbor West Virginia allows 65 mph on those roads. Virginia allows at least 60 mph on divided roads (it should be 65 mph, but 60 mph is better than 55 mph)
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 25, 2019, 12:45:08 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 25, 2019, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 08:12:58 AM
Has nothing to do with Northeastern states. Has everything to do with how Maryland chooses to post the speed limit on that particular roadway.
There is a definite paradigm in the states in the greater northeast region of the country that nothing with at-grades can ever have a speed limit higher than 55.
I wonder if any state will ever change that to make a reasonable speed limit on at-grades.
I'm hoping Maryland would be the first. Those interstate-standard, limited-access roadways (again with the exception of those intersections) can easily handle 65 or 70 mph.
Its neighbor West Virginia allows 65 mph on those roads. Virginia allows at least 60 mph on divided roads (it should be 65 mph, but 60 mph is better than 55 mph)
While that's mostly true, the Northeast region is also the oldest and the most populated region in the country. In the 11 states from Maryland and PA North and east to Maine, the size of the land is about 200,000 square miles. Texas alone is nearly 270,000 square miles. Yet, in those 11 states, there's over 62 million people, compares to about 30 million people in Texas.
So while it appears that the Northeast is against non-highways going above 55 mph, the reality of the situation is there are so few roads that would technically qualify that most states don't bother.
As it was, when the Northeast states started allowing 65 mph, it basically allowed all vehicles to go 65 mph. Yet, in many other states to the south and west, trucks were limited to 55 mph at the time! You can be sure that when the 14-lane wide NJ Turnpike allowed trucks to go 65 mph, yet other states such as Ohio only permitted trucks to go 55 mph, that certainly raised some eyebrows!
And while Texas is an easy state to compare to, other states are much more restrictive. Largely rural Montana only allowed 65 mph max limits for trucks on all roadways and on non-interstate highways for cars; the same max speed limit found on many non-interstate highways in the Northeast. And truckers were limited to 60 mph day/55 mph night limits on non-interstate highways...SLOWER than most other states! Just this year they slightly increased those limits.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 01:23:47 PM
the reality of the situation is there are so few roads that would technically qualify that most states don't bother.
I would disagree. Maryland has a handful of long-distance arterials that can handle it, even some of the non-limited-access ones could be 65 mph.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 25, 2019, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 01:23:47 PM
the reality of the situation is there are so few roads that would technically qualify that most states don't bother.
I would disagree. Maryland has a handful of long-distance arterials that can handle it, even some of the non-limited-access ones could be 65 mph.
What you said does not contradict the previous statement. Maryland may simply consider "a handful" and "some" to be not worth the bother.
Quote from: kphoger on July 26, 2019, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 25, 2019, 01:28:37 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 25, 2019, 01:23:47 PM
the reality of the situation is there are so few roads that would technically qualify that most states don't bother.
I would disagree. Maryland has a handful of long-distance arterials that can handle it, even some of the non-limited-access ones could be 65 mph.
What you said does not contradict the previous statement. Maryland may simply consider "a handful" and "some" to be not worth the bother.
I've counted at least 109 miles of limited-access, at-grade rural divided highways with interstate-cross-sections in Maryland that could all qualify for 65 mph. And plenty more of the non-limited-access highways could be evaluated to determine how safe they would perform at 60 or 65 mph.
Also keep in mind, plenty of the 109 miles of limited-access highway currently have average speeds of 65 - 70 mph, so that alone should be a reason to raise it. 55 mph is absurdly low.