I've been wanting to do something for the Cabrillo Freeway (current CA 163) and routes of US 80/US 395 in San Diego for quite some time. The Cabrillo Freeway is the oldest limited access road in the San Diego which opened in 1948 and is mostly known for the scenic section through Balboa Park via Cabrillo Canyon. I was able to track the alignment history of US 395 and US 80 before the Cabrillo Freeway with some reasonable degree of certainty. The Cabrillo Freeway certainly is a treat given the highly scenic nature of Cabrillo Canyon and the 1914 Cabrillo Bridge hanging overhead. I caught a break in traffic but the Cabrillo Freeway has usually been a route I've never had much of an issue sitting through traffic in just to take in the scenery a little bit longer.
https://www.gribblenation.org/2019/05/california-state-route-163-old-us-route.html
It's interesting to think about that when Caltrans decided to truncate US 395 to Adelanto, the corridor to the south of there essentially followed I-15 (or I-215) all the way to Northern San Diego. At that point, I-15 followed a new corridor to the east (allowing for a bypass of Downtown SD for any Riverside-Mexico) traffic and the old US 395 became CA-163. CA-163 seems to have been chosen since it was an available number. IMO, it would have been better to pick a number that is more functional like 315 (or other X15 that may be available) to designate this as the spur route from I-15 into Downtown San Diego. (And even though this highway is not interstate standard, the number CA-315 would still highlight its role in getting people to the I-15.
Quote from: mrsman on May 12, 2019, 12:17:16 AM
It's interesting to think about that when Caltrans decided to truncate US 395 to Adelanto, the corridor to the south of there essentially followed I-15 (or I-215) all the way to Northern San Diego. At that point, I-15 followed a new corridor to the east (allowing for a bypass of Downtown SD for any Riverside-Mexico) traffic and the old US 395 became CA-163. CA-163 seems to have been chosen since it was an available number. IMO, it would have been better to pick a number that is more functional like 315 (or other X15 that may be available) to designate this as the spur route from I-15 into Downtown San Diego. (And even though this highway is not interstate standard, the number CA-315 would still highlight its role in getting people to the I-15.
I doubt anything but a random number draw was part of the consideration, that seems to have been the post-1964 numbering practice aside form corridors that weren't intended to become future Interstates.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 12, 2019, 11:28:44 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 12, 2019, 12:17:16 AM
It's interesting to think about that when Caltrans decided to truncate US 395 to Adelanto, the corridor to the south of there essentially followed I-15 (or I-215) all the way to Northern San Diego. At that point, I-15 followed a new corridor to the east (allowing for a bypass of Downtown SD for any Riverside-Mexico) traffic and the old US 395 became CA-163. CA-163 seems to have been chosen since it was an available number. IMO, it would have been better to pick a number that is more functional like 315 (or other X15 that may be available) to designate this as the spur route from I-15 into Downtown San Diego. (And even though this highway is not interstate standard, the number CA-315 would still highlight its role in getting people to the I-15.
I doubt anything but a random number draw was part of the consideration, that seems to have been the post-1964 numbering practice aside form corridors that weren't intended to become future Interstates.
The 3xx former routings (330 and 371) IIRC are both products of the 1970s, and not from the 1964 renumbering. The only direct child route I can think of from then was 242 (former 24) though one could argue that 35 is somewhat derived from the original 1934 numbering of 5, in similar fashion to how 26 replaced the original 1934 6 and 88 replaced a portion of the 1934 8.
---
Something that I am not 1000% sure about, but I wanted to refresh my memory with:
At one point (until the 1980s), Route 163 continued south and west into Downtown San Diego to end at former US 101 (Harbor Drive), concurrent with Route 94. Prior to 1964, did US 395 and US 80 run concurrent with Route 94 all the way to Harbor? And in that 1964-1969 period when US 395 still ran to San Diego, did 395 continue south of what was now I-5 on that surface street routing as well?
Quote from: TheStranger on May 13, 2019, 12:20:12 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 12, 2019, 11:28:44 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 12, 2019, 12:17:16 AM
It's interesting to think about that when Caltrans decided to truncate US 395 to Adelanto, the corridor to the south of there essentially followed I-15 (or I-215) all the way to Northern San Diego. At that point, I-15 followed a new corridor to the east (allowing for a bypass of Downtown SD for any Riverside-Mexico) traffic and the old US 395 became CA-163. CA-163 seems to have been chosen since it was an available number. IMO, it would have been better to pick a number that is more functional like 315 (or other X15 that may be available) to designate this as the spur route from I-15 into Downtown San Diego. (And even though this highway is not interstate standard, the number CA-315 would still highlight its role in getting people to the I-15.
I doubt anything but a random number draw was part of the consideration, that seems to have been the post-1964 numbering practice aside form corridors that weren't intended to become future Interstates.
The 3xx former routings (330 and 371) IIRC are both products of the 1970s, and not from the 1964 renumbering. The only direct child route I can think of from then was 242 (former 24) though one could argue that 35 is somewhat derived from the original 1934 numbering of 5, in similar fashion to how 26 replaced the original 1934 6 and 88 replaced a portion of the 1934 8.
---
Something that I am not 1000% sure about, but I wanted to refresh my memory with:
At one point (until the 1980s), Route 163 continued south and west into Downtown San Diego to end at former US 101 (Harbor Drive), concurrent with Route 94. Prior to 1964, did US 395 and US 80 run concurrent with Route 94 all the way to Harbor? And in that 1964-1969 period when US 395 still ran to San Diego, did 395 continue south of what was now I-5 on that surface street routing as well?
US 80 was definitely out of downtown San Diego onto Camino del Rio by the late 1950s. None of the official state highway maps make it explicitly clear if US 395/US 80 ever had a multiplex with CA 94 to US 101. It isn't even totally clear if US 395 stayed signed to Harbor after US 101 was moved. I "assume" US 395 was signed all the way to Harbor until the very end since it would have connected directly to the San Diego-Coronado Ferry which would have taken traffic directly to CA 75 prior the Coronado Bridge being built.
QuoteAnd in that 1964-1969 period when US 395 still ran to San Diego, did 395 continue south of what was now I-5 on that surface street routing as well?
I don't have any maps showing US 395 in the downtown after the Montgomery Fwy was built, no. I assume it terminated where CA 163 does now. (EDIT: I was wrong, see below.)
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on May 13, 2019, 11:49:31 AM
QuoteAnd in that 1964-1969 period when US 395 still ran to San Diego, did 395 continue south of what was now I-5 on that surface street routing as well?
I don't have any maps showing US 395 in the downtown after the Montgomery Fwy was built, no. I assume it terminated where CA 163 does now.
Who was the map provider? All the stuff on David Rumsey doesn't really show anything in great detail in downtown San Diego.
Gousha, I think, but I have street-level maps for around that time. I'll dig them out.
I recall 395 ran down 10th and 11th Streets, then onto Market, and one block south on Pacific Hwy to where ferry terminal used to be (now Seaport Villiage). Wish they had digital cameras back then.
Here's a map scan from a 1971 Mobil (Rand McNalley) street map of San Diego:
(https://i.imgur.com/t0ql3te.jpg)
This is the downtown inset from a 1969 ACSC San Diego map:
(https://i.imgur.com/uFJ3Dzs.jpg)
1960 picture of US 395 and CA 94 multiplex, at 5th and Market is available at Derrick Garbell's site on the history of US 395:
https://www.garbell.com/US395-old/US395_CA94_5thAv+MarketSt-1960detail.jpg
The problem that I've often encountered other Californian highways prior to 1964 was that there was often no absolute way to know where a highway in many instances without some sort photographs. The 1960 picture is a perfect example of something that was never clearly portrayed on a state issued map. Regarding US 395 on Market Street I can understand why the signage wasn't removed until the route was kicked north to Hesperia. Why remove shields from such a small section of highway until I-15 was complete and ready to be fully signed? I've noticed that in almost every case a US Route wasn't kicked out of California or truncated until the replacement Interstate was fully built.
Regarding commercial maps I tend to question their accuracy in regards to early numbered highway routings. In the 1930s especially there was some huge discrepancies from State maps versus their commercial counterparts on where roadways were. Granted when bodies like the ACSC were handling signage it wasn't always on a roadway maintained by the Division of Highways.
Just found a treasure trove of 1970 color "videos" through San diego.
You can see US 395 still signed downtown at market and 10th at the 3:18 mark, plus later on at 3:25 (hard to see unless playing at 0.25), 3:32, 3:40, 3:48, 3:52, 3:55 (showing CA 163/US 395 turning left at Pacific Hwy!) - https://youtu.be/OCIF_z2sNEQ
Pacific Hwy S has a US 395 posting picking up the route (with CA 163) at 2:54 - https://youtu.be/hTRSstsGyIM. At 2:57 there is an END placard with the US 395 and CA 163 shield!!! The route ended at Harbor Dr.
More to search but I'm at work...
From the first video, the most intriguing thing besides US 395: State Route 15 signage (for an onramp off Market Street) at 1:51! This is really notable considering that the designation of 15 along the Wabash Boulevard freeway was one year old or less at that point, and that ramp itself no longer exists (this was a full cloverleaf when originally built, but switched to a parclo some time later to accommodate the current 15/94 interchange immediately to the north).
This is the approximate location today of where the Route 15 shield pointing to the onramp from Market WB to Wabash/Route 15 northbound was located:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.7116148,-117.1161654,3a,56.8y,274.88h,92.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRvpOr5bBa_b3PgwkfDsEdA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Remarkable videos.
Anyway, I was wrong. I just checked my maps and they are similar to Mark's. But Max makes a good point, especially since the end point at Harbor wouldn't have made any sense by 1969; US 101 was gone by then, and was signed on the Montgomery Fwy anyway.
EDIT: So I've been sitting down and scrubbing frames on those videos. On the Market Street video 395/163 is shown turning left (SB), and then it immediately ends on Pacific with the END assembly as mentioned. That's bizarre. That would be about where Seaport Village is now.
mapmikey, where did you get the year for these?
Related to those videos too:
The San Diego Freeway in southern Orange County near Camp Pendleton has been photographed as being built as US 101/I-5 concurrently (the double-shielded pullthrough BGSes that are common in SoCal were in part an adaptation to the 1968 removal of 101 along this route, with 5 shields covering up the 101 shields on what had been dual-marked in the past).
Looking at maps on HistoricAerials, in 1970 Market Street continued all the way west to Harbor Drive, with Pacific Highway continuing south to Harbor as well. In 1978, the portion of Harbor between Market and Pacific was removed entirely, to accommodate the construction of Seaport Village. Between 1994 and 2001, the portion of Harbor Drive from Pacific Highway southeast to 8th Avenue that was historically US 101 was removed for the construction of the convention center.
So essentially the portion of Pacific Highway that goes south of modern Harbor Drive into Seaport Village seems to be what was 1964-1970s US 395 (and 1963-1978 Route 163), though it's not clear how this was signed when 101 was initially moved from Pacific Highway to the Montgomery Freeway/modern I-5. Not sure if this section of Pacific was ever part of US 80. (EDIT: Based on a different post in this thread, it sounds like Pacific is the terminus and not a continuation of 395/163) (EDIT 2: Just watched the video again and it does show 395/163 continuing onto Pacific!)
The portion of modern Harbor Drive between Pacific Highway and the current Market Street terminus subsumed a portion of Market Street that was part of that 395/163 concurrency.
Interestingly, the 1955 topographic map on Historic Aerials shows Market Street as US 80/US 395/Route 94 all at once back then! (I don't know if 94 was signed on Market all the way into the 1980s despite some maps showing this - the 1970 video posted here seems to suggest that 94 was already turned back to the current Montgomery Freeway/I-5 terminus, with no signage of it on Market at all)
94 was definitely signed on the F/G St couplet; I remember them as a kid in the 1980s. They were old white shields. I don't recall if they got as far west as Market.
Best weather in SoCal. Killer cars that were cheap and easy to buy. Low rents and house prices. Great burgers for a low price. Lots of jobs. No homeless bums. No gangs. Paradise Lost indeed.
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Quote from: ClassicHasClass on May 14, 2019, 08:01:18 PM
Remarkable videos.
Anyway, I was wrong. I just checked my maps and they are similar to Mark's. But Max makes a good point, especially since the end point at Harbor wouldn't have made any sense by 1969; US 101 was gone by then, and was signed on the Montgomery Fwy anyway.
EDIT: So I've been sitting down and scrubbing frames on those videos. On the Market Street video 395/163 is shown turning left (SB), and then it immediately ends on Pacific with the END assembly as mentioned. That's bizarre. That would be about where Seaport Village is now.
mapmikey, where did you get the year for these?
https://www.sandiego.gov/blog/recently-added
Discovered this site earlier today...maybe more historical photos to be found...
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on May 14, 2019, 08:01:18 PM
EDIT: So I've been sitting down and scrubbing frames on those videos. On the Market Street video 395/163 is shown turning left (SB), and then it immediately ends on Pacific with the END assembly as mentioned. That's bizarre. That would be about where Seaport Village is now.
What's absolutely intriguing about that is that the Pacific Highway freeway passing to the north side of Lindbergh Field was US 101 from the 1940s up until the 1960s, but that's a few miles north. (I'm not sure very much of the freeway between the current I-5/Pacific Highway interchange and Camp Pendleton was ever built as US 101) As late as 1955, what is now listed as Harbor Drive between I-5 in National City and 5th Street in downtown San Diego was part of the original Montgomery Freeway alignment, but the current I-5/Route 163 junction already existed by 1964:
https://www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19583951
So when 101 was moved over to the San Diego Freeway/realigned Montgomery Freeway north of National City, US 395's old terminus at pre-1960s US 101 (Pacific Highway) seemingly remained into the 1970s!
The Washington St video is outstanding (low res, but wonderful). Around 1:45 is the westbound section showing beautiful US 395 shields at the junction with the future CA 163 alignment, in old style without the background fill. It should come up if you search for it on https://www.sandiego.gov/digitalarchives/film-audio/street-videos . There are also heaps of BR 8 signs on Washington, even with directional arrows.
Those videos are an awesome find. Its weird to see US 395 co-signed with CA 163, I suppose it makes sense the former was doomed to go away.
Quote from: TheStranger on May 14, 2019, 09:21:25 PM
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on May 14, 2019, 08:01:18 PM
EDIT: So I've been sitting down and scrubbing frames on those videos. On the Market Street video 395/163 is shown turning left (SB), and then it immediately ends on Pacific with the END assembly as mentioned. That's bizarre. That would be about where Seaport Village is now.
What's absolutely intriguing about that is that the Pacific Highway freeway passing to the north side of Lindbergh Field was US 101 from the 1940s up until the 1960s, but that's a few miles north. (I'm not sure very much of the freeway between the current I-5/Pacific Highway interchange and Camp Pendleton was ever built as US 101) As late as 1955, what is now listed as Harbor Drive between I-5 in National City and 5th Street in downtown San Diego was part of the original Montgomery Freeway alignment, but the current I-5/Route 163 junction already existed by 1964:
https://www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19583951
So when 101 was moved over to the San Diego Freeway/realigned Montgomery Freeway north of National City, US 395's old terminus at pre-1960s US 101 (Pacific Highway) seemingly remained into the 1970s!
I don't think this is all that unusual. US 395 will follow its original routing, independent of what happens to US 101. So if US 101 moves, US 395 does not move. US 395 will end at the old US 101 (which may or may not be signed as a business route). US 395 will not be truncated until a change is made to the official routing by the legislature.
Likewise, if the freeway routing is further away from the original routing, intersecting routes will need a redefenition to be extended to the freeway. And sometimes if the intersecting route ends at the old route at a T intersection, the intersecting route will need to multiplex down the buisness route until it can meet up with an entrance to the freeway at some point.
Quote from: mrsman on May 15, 2019, 12:24:27 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on May 14, 2019, 09:21:25 PM
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on May 14, 2019, 08:01:18 PM
EDIT: So I've been sitting down and scrubbing frames on those videos. On the Market Street video 395/163 is shown turning left (SB), and then it immediately ends on Pacific with the END assembly as mentioned. That's bizarre. That would be about where Seaport Village is now.
What's absolutely intriguing about that is that the Pacific Highway freeway passing to the north side of Lindbergh Field was US 101 from the 1940s up until the 1960s, but that's a few miles north. (I'm not sure very much of the freeway between the current I-5/Pacific Highway interchange and Camp Pendleton was ever built as US 101) As late as 1955, what is now listed as Harbor Drive between I-5 in National City and 5th Street in downtown San Diego was part of the original Montgomery Freeway alignment, but the current I-5/Route 163 junction already existed by 1964:
https://www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19583951
So when 101 was moved over to the San Diego Freeway/realigned Montgomery Freeway north of National City, US 395's old terminus at pre-1960s US 101 (Pacific Highway) seemingly remained into the 1970s!
I don't think this is all that unusual. US 395 will follow its original routing, independent of what happens to US 101. So if US 101 moves, US 395 does not move. US 395 will end at the old US 101 (which may or may not be signed as a business route). US 395 will not be truncated until a change is made to the official routing by the legislature.
Likewise, if the freeway routing is further away from the original routing, intersecting routes will need a redefenition to be extended to the freeway. And sometimes if the intersecting route ends at the old route at a T intersection, the intersecting route will need to multiplex down the buisness route until it can meet up with an entrance to the freeway at some point.
US 395 was
extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 15, 2019, 06:20:01 AM
US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)
This is probably one of the most interesting finds from the 1970 videos. I wonder if that extension is specific to the creation of Seaport Village (in the video it appears the section of Harbor/old 101 between Market and Pacific had already been removed) and if Route 163 used that all the way to 1984.
More info on US 395...this is from pg. 88 of https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_116.pdf (Dec 1965)
A communication from the California Division of Highways giving
notice of resolution designating that portion of Highway 395, between the
Coronado Ferry landing and 11th Avenue, to be a State Highway, was referred to
the City Manager, on motion of Councilman Walsh, seconded by Councilman Schaefer
I don't know enough about how California highways were designated or what not, but is this essentially saying this is when US 395 was extended to the Coronado Ferry?
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 15, 2019, 12:52:06 PM
More info on US 395...this is from pg. 88 of https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_116.pdf (Dec 1965)
A communication from the California Division of Highways giving
notice of resolution designating that portion of Highway 395, between the
Coronado Ferry landing and 11th Avenue, to be a State Highway, was referred to
the City Manager, on motion of Councilman Walsh, seconded by Councilman Schaefer
I don't know enough about how California highways were designated or what not, but is this essentially saying this is when US 395 was extended to the Coronado Ferry?
Sounds like it!
Interestingly, on Cahighways.org, the original 1964 definition for 395 in California simply states the southern terminus as "San Diego" rather than US 101, I-5, Harbor Drive, Pacific Highway, or anything specific. I wonder if this gave latitude to either CalTrans or the city itself as far as where the actual southern terminus would be pre-1969 (though the link you posted suggests that the Coronado Ferry north landing was officially designated as the terminus by then-California Division of Highways)
In this same time period, Route 75's definition did not originally have its north terminus at the I-5/Montgomery Freeway, instead ending at the Coronado terminal of the ferry from 1964-1967 (when bridge construction was completed). This created a unique situation where one would take US 395 to the ferry, and arrive on the other side at a completely different numbered route (75).
Quote from: TheStranger on May 15, 2019, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 15, 2019, 12:52:06 PM
More info on US 395...this is from pg. 88 of https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_116.pdf (Dec 1965)
A communication from the California Division of Highways giving
notice of resolution designating that portion of Highway 395, between the
Coronado Ferry landing and 11th Avenue, to be a State Highway, was referred to
the City Manager, on motion of Councilman Walsh, seconded by Councilman Schaefer
I don't know enough about how California highways were designated or what not, but is this essentially saying this is when US 395 was extended to the Coronado Ferry?
Sounds like it!
Interestingly, on Cahighways.org, the original 1964 definition for 395 in California simply states the southern terminus as "San Diego" rather than US 101, I-5, Harbor Drive, Pacific Highway, or anything specific. I wonder if this gave latitude to either CalTrans or the city itself as far as where the actual southern terminus would be pre-1969 (though the link you posted suggests that the Coronado Ferry north landing was officially designated as the terminus by then-California Division of Highways)
In this same time period, Route 75's definition did not originally have its north terminus at the I-5/Montgomery Freeway, instead ending at the Coronado terminal of the ferry from 1964-1967 (when bridge construction was completed). This created a unique situation where one would take US 395 to the ferry, and arrive on the other side at a completely different numbered route (75).
Even weirder the legislative definition of Orange Ave in Coronado switches to 282 in 1968 when 75 was shifted towards the route of the Coronado Bridge. I guess the real question.is who operated the San Diego-Coronado Ferry because it doesn't appear to have been the Division of Highways.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 15, 2019, 01:06:14 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on May 15, 2019, 01:01:41 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 15, 2019, 12:52:06 PM
More info on US 395...this is from pg. 88 of https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_116.pdf (Dec 1965)
A communication from the California Division of Highways giving
notice of resolution designating that portion of Highway 395, between the
Coronado Ferry landing and 11th Avenue, to be a State Highway, was referred to
the City Manager, on motion of Councilman Walsh, seconded by Councilman Schaefer
I don't know enough about how California highways were designated or what not, but is this essentially saying this is when US 395 was extended to the Coronado Ferry?
Sounds like it!
Interestingly, on Cahighways.org, the original 1964 definition for 395 in California simply states the southern terminus as "San Diego" rather than US 101, I-5, Harbor Drive, Pacific Highway, or anything specific. I wonder if this gave latitude to either CalTrans or the city itself as far as where the actual southern terminus would be pre-1969 (though the link you posted suggests that the Coronado Ferry north landing was officially designated as the terminus by then-California Division of Highways)
In this same time period, Route 75's definition did not originally have its north terminus at the I-5/Montgomery Freeway, instead ending at the Coronado terminal of the ferry from 1964-1967 (when bridge construction was completed). This created a unique situation where one would take US 395 to the ferry, and arrive on the other side at a completely different numbered route (75).
Even weirder the legislative definition of Orange Ave in Coronado switches to 282 in 1968 when 75 was shifted towards the route of the Coronado Bridge. I guess the real question.is who operated the San Diego-Coronado Ferry because it doesn't appear to have been the Division of Highways.
Just looked up Cahighways on 282 and it looks like Orange north of 3rd/4th in Coronado was part of the 1930s-1967 Route 75, then maintained as part of that temporary 282 extension while the ferry and bridge each existed concurrently (which was a short time).
Interestingly, the San Diego/Coronado Ferry has since made a return:
https://www.flagshipsd.com/cruises/coronado-ferry
The Coronado terminus of the modern ferry is similar to the Route 75/282 era, but the north terminus has shifted, with the modern ferry either boarding from the convention center (close to the original US 101/Harbor Drive that the convention center built over) or from the Broadway pier.
What is also notable about that 1965 CDOH resolution is that 11th Avenue at that point was the northbound part of the couplet leading from Market Street to the Cabrillo Freeway, making me wonder if the 395/80/94 concurrency along Market was a city-maintained street prior to then.
QuoteUS 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)
That's the part that's noteworthy. I don't have any maps corroborating it, but obviously here it is signed in the field.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on May 15, 2019, 10:58:38 PM
QuoteUS 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)
That's the part that's noteworthy. I don't have any maps corroborating it, but obviously here it is signed in the field.
More confirmation of the 395 extension down Pacific:
1967 California state map (linked in Max R.'s recent blog post on I-5 )
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239518~5511845:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=22&trs=86
The 1965 map actually does not show any state maintenance along the 10th/11th couplet or along Market, but the 1958 and 1961 maps show 395 using that corridor all the way to Harbor and the ferry terminus. Wonder if this briefly was not state-maintained in 1964-1965 before being offically re-added.
The 1970 map shows the 395/163 concurrency all the way down 10th/11th and Market, but not that final block or two to Pacific and the ferry terminus
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239512~5511841:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=18&trs=86
Quote from: TheStranger on May 15, 2019, 01:14:46 PM
What is also notable about that 1965 CDOH resolution is that 11th Avenue at that point was the northbound part of the couplet leading from Market Street to the Cabrillo Freeway, making me wonder if the 395/80/94 concurrency along Market was a city-maintained street prior to then.
It appears CA 94 was moved from Market to F/G couplet in Oct 1959 (pg. 59 at https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/minutes_of_common_council_book_101.pdf). The Sept 1959 minutes show this was at the City of San Diego's request (pg. 328 at https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/digitalarchives/pdf/historicalocd/minutes/minutesofcommoncouncil100.pdf)
Communication from Distric t Engineer, State Division of
Highways, submitting copy of thei r resolution adopting as State Highway
Road XI-SD-200-SD, that portion of P and G Streets between 10th Avenue
and 25th Street (this i s a temporary one-way street connection which
i s to serve unti l Route 2, or U. S. 101, i s relocated along l8th Street
and Route 200 completed from l8th Street to 25th Street), was presented.
The item was referred to the City Manager, on motion of
Councilman Schneider, seconded by Councilman Evenson. On this same page they add chunks of the new US 101 freeway to the system.
On pg 255 of same they appear to remove Market St from the state highway system.
US 101 between National City and NCL of San Diego appears to have been removed in March 1959 (pg. 84 at https://www.sandiego.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/digitalarchives/pdf/historicalocd/minutes/minutesofthecommoncouncil99.pdf)
The communication from the California Highway Co~ission
relinquishing certain portions of State Highway Road XI-S.D.-2-SD, between
18th Street in National City and the: north Gity limits of San Diego, was
referred to the City 1~nager, on mo~ion of Councilman Kerrigan, seconded by Councilman Curran.
Thanks for the post! "Route 200" is reference to LRN 200, the pre-1964 legislative number for what has always been signed route 94.
Exit 1B from Route 94 west leads directly into the F/G couplet so I presume that was the westernmost extent of the 94 freeway in late 1959.
Excellent find! I'll take some time to review the videos too. I had no idea 395 was intended to terminate at the Coronado ferry. 1970 (the year in which these videos were made) was one year after the Coronado bridge opened. 395 only lasted a little longer before signs were removed. The last of the overhead signs with convered up 395 shields were removed during the current (2018-2019) mass conversion of most remaining button copy and porcelain enamel signs to reflective signs with exit numbers.
SM-G975U
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on May 15, 2019, 01:06:14 PM
Even weirder the legislative definition of Orange Ave in Coronado switches to 282 in 1968 when 75 was shifted towards the route of the Coronado Bridge.
Today's California highway system has only one place now where a through route continues through a junction under 2 different route numbers, and that is 17/880 in San Jose (of which all of 880 was formerly 17 from the 1950s to 1984).
Would this count as an example of such too, essentially 395 becoming 75 and then later 395/163 becoming 282 before the ferry was shut down? (Though it would be a stretch to say that US 395's south terminus in the mid-1960s was Route 75 and 1969-1970 was Route 282, given that the ferry did not carry a route number).
Now here's some fun...
At 0:23 of this video https://youtu.be/7xD-3yL3CdE There is no US 395/CA 163 posting
At 3:48 of this video https://youtu.be/OCIF_z2sNEQ There is...
At the ends of each of these there is also that change in posting.
A similar situation occurs with the Pacific Hwy SB videos and comparing the one with the END shield and the one with the END shield not present appears to me to show the ones with the shields are older - on the shield-less Pacific Hwy there appears to be construction and new stuff in the distance that is not present in the shielded one.
Compare 0:02 at https://youtu.be/hOlI8p3__mg (shieldless) with 2:57 at https://youtu.be/hTRSstsGyIM (shielded). Note the water tower in the distance is visible in both.
So to me this would establish that US 395 was deposted on Market and Pacific sometime during 1970 as these videos are from January to October 1970.
However, a careful check of the first 2 videos shows they can't have been filmed a few months apart IMO. There are NUMEROUS business name changes (a 76 became a Chevron for example) plus an entire building several stories tall is present in the newer one (0:07) that is not in the older one (3:33). It is the Lions Manor which didn't open until 1980 but per the Lions website description sounds as though construction was held up at some point in the mid 1970s. So I think the newer video is newer than 1970...I am not a car expert to know if mid 70s cars appear in it)
That first video in your most recent post (Market Street 2) looks to be later 70s (or even early 80s) - at the first second there's a GM coupe (an Oldsmobile?) that is a late 70s/early 80s design, I think I might have also sighted an 80s BMW in there too.
I can't pin down a date on the Pacific Highway 2 video other than that the mid-1970s Camaro/Firebird design shows up quite a bit in the parking spots seen in that clip.
Quote from: TheStranger on May 16, 2019, 01:22:54 AM
More confirmation of the 395 extension down Pacific:
1967 California state map (linked in Max R.'s recent blog post on I-5 )
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239518~5511845:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=22&trs=86
The 1965 map actually does not show any state maintenance along the 10th/11th couplet or along Market, but the 1958 and 1961 maps show 395 using that corridor all the way to Harbor and the ferry terminus. Wonder if this briefly was not state-maintained in 1964-1965 before being offically re-added.
The 1970 map shows the 395/163 concurrency all the way down 10th/11th and Market, but not that final block or two to Pacific and the ferry terminus
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239512~5511841:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=18&trs=86
The 1975 California map (https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239508~5511839:-Verso--California-State-Highways,-?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:publisher%3D%22California%20Department%20of%20Transportation%20(CALTRANS)%22;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=16&trs=86) does still show the short Pacific Hwy piece as part of the route -
The 1977 and 1979 maps show it too, though only CA 163 remains on these maps.
I found 1971 photos showing the US 395/CA 163 shields still up on Market...not surprising. Wonder if it was still posted in 1975...
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 18, 2019, 11:01:44 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on May 16, 2019, 01:22:54 AM
More confirmation of the 395 extension down Pacific:
1967 California state map (linked in Max R.'s recent blog post on I-5 )
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239518~5511845:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=22&trs=86
The 1965 map actually does not show any state maintenance along the 10th/11th couplet or along Market, but the 1958 and 1961 maps show 395 using that corridor all the way to Harbor and the ferry terminus. Wonder if this briefly was not state-maintained in 1964-1965 before being offically re-added.
The 1970 map shows the 395/163 concurrency all the way down 10th/11th and Market, but not that final block or two to Pacific and the ferry terminus
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239512~5511841:-Verso--State-Highway-Map,-Californ?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:caltrans;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=18&trs=86
The 1975 California map (https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239508~5511839:-Verso--California-State-Highways,-?sort=Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No&qvq=q:publisher%3D%22California%20Department%20of%20Transportation%20(CALTRANS)%22;sort:Pub_List_No_InitialSort%2CPub_Date%2CPub_List_No%2CSeries_No;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=16&trs=86) does still show the short Pacific Hwy piece as part of the route -
The 1977 and 1979 maps show it too, though only CA 163 remains on these maps.
I found 1971 photos showing the US 395/CA 163 shields still up on Market...not surprising. Wonder if it was still posted in 1975...
Apparently the legislative definition wasn't updated to reflect the truncation until 1984:
https://www.cahighways.org/161-168.html#163
You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?
Quote from: SoCal Kid on May 19, 2019, 12:42:49 AM
You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?
The mentions of 11 in this thread I think are just pointing out that 10th and 11th Streets were the one-way couplet that 395/163 (and in the past US 80) used from the San Diego Freeway (US 101 then, now I-5) south into downtown San Diego from the southern terminus of the Cabrillo Freeway.
The original 1964 Route 163 was a completely different routing in the Los Angeles area, former US 99 and US 6 along San Fernando Road as well as what had been Route 134 along the Colorado Street freeway in Glendale (now unsigned Route 5S).
EDIT: I realize now your post was about that 1964-1965 Route 163 (which did end originally at what was 1950s-1984 Route 11, now Route 110)
Quote from: SoCal Kid on May 19, 2019, 12:42:49 AM
You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?
The sign in that photo meant CA 163 (now Ave 26) crossing over CA 11 (now I-110)
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 19, 2019, 03:23:30 PM
Quote from: SoCal Kid on May 19, 2019, 12:42:49 AM
You learn something new every day, don't you! Didnt know there was an "old" CA 163. What's with the /11. Did it use to be CA 11 too?
The sign in that photo meant CA 163 (now Ave 26) crossing over CA 11 (now I-110)
This, in fact: http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/mass/#163
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 15, 2019, 06:20:01 AM
US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)
Yes, that is the question this all raises in my mind: was US 395 extended to the ferry landing in ~1960, or had it been signed to that location ever since it was first extended to San Diego in 1934? And for that matter, did US 80 also go to the ferry landing prior to the 1950s (when it was moved to what would later become I-8)? That is something that wouldn't have been answered on any but the largest-scale maps.
Quote from: usends on May 19, 2019, 07:43:02 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 15, 2019, 06:20:01 AM
US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)
Yes, that is the question this all raises in my mind: was US 395 extended to the ferry landing in ~1960, or had it been signed to that location ever since it was first extended to San Diego in 1934? And for that matter, did US 80 also go to the ferry landing prior to the 1950s (when it was moved to what would later become I-8)? That is something that wouldn't have been answered on any but the largest-scale maps.
Looking at a 1954 map, it seems the ferry landing itself wasn't part of the route (or any signed route) then
https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~239557~5511871:-Verso--Road-Map-of-the-State-of-Ca
Quote from: usends on May 19, 2019, 07:43:02 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on May 15, 2019, 06:20:01 AM
US 395 was extended over what had been US 101 when US 101 was removed from Pacific Hwy (unless US 395 always turned left onto Pacific Hwy south down to Harbor Dr)
Yes, that is the question this all raises in my mind: was US 395 extended to the ferry landing in ~1960, or had it been signed to that location ever since it was first extended to San Diego in 1934? And for that matter, did US 80 also go to the ferry landing prior to the 1950s (when it was moved to what would later become I-8)? That is something that wouldn't have been answered on any but the largest-scale maps.
1964 Official Map shows no primary routes near the ferry landing at all and US 395's extension to it was specifically assigned in Dec 1965. That doesn't mean that US 80-395 didn't go to the ferry landing at some point early on. Just not continuously for US 395 if it did.