The following was on another forum I visit and I thought it raises an interesting question, recognizing of course that the laws on stopping for school buses vary from state to state. The guy who posted the question later clarified that he lives in Virginia, as do most of the other people on that forum (it's a UVA sports forum).
Cross-posting it here because I think it raises an interesting question and I'm curious what all of you think. We never really reached a resolution over there. My thoughts in response are pasted in below as noted. (BTW, some of you would be amused that one of the replies quoted the Code of Virginia referring to a "divided highway"; the person making the comment then said to him, a "divided highway" means an Interstate "and similar limited access roads." Obviously that's not what it means!)
QuoteOk, so a school bus question. Once a week I find myself in the following situation. The road is a four-way road with a median. A school bus stops on the other side of the road. My understanding is that normally cars on my side don't need to stop because of the median, right? However, the complication is that the bus stop in this case is pretty much right at an intersection where the median is open. It's maybe five feet away from the intersection opening. There are no stop signs at this intersection but there are crosswalks. I feel like I should be stopping when the bus red lights are on but others clearly don't. They either drive by me or I see them annoyed in my rearview mirror that I stopped.
So, I'm going to stop either way, but I'm wondering what the answer might be. Thoughts?
To me, the interesting part of this is the intersection aspect. Most of the people who replied said variants on "you don't have to stop if there's a median," and in fact only one guy correctly added "but you do have to yield to any kids using the crosswalks." But I think that's an oversimplification. My reply is quoted below and focuses on the point that the intersection is a complicating factor (at the time, he hadn't said he's in Virginia, hence my reference to not knowing what state's law might apply). The reference to "JPA" refers to Jefferson Park Avenue in Charlottesville.
QuoteNormally, in most states (there are exceptions to this), a hard median like a curb or a grass median means you don't have to stop, although a two-way left-turn lane is not a median and in most states (again there exceptions) you do have to stop if that sort of lane is the only divider. This is because paint is not a physical barrier. (I recall in Charlottesville it always drove me crazy that people stopped for school buses that stopped on the other side of the median islands on JPA.)
But the problem you cite is that the bus is stopped at an intersection. Obviously, as WAYoVerraTed notes, if any kid is in the crosswalk you have to yield to him (or stop for him, depending on state law). But what if no kid is crossing? In some states, you still have to stop if the school bus is at an intersection–all directions of traffic must stop. Pennsylvania has that law, for example. Some states have a law saying a kid can't be dropped off on the "wrong" side of the street if the street is more than a certain width–in that situation, the bus has to go around and stop on the other side of the street, and in those states you don't have to stop if the road is more than whatever that specified width is.
Bottom line is, it's all potentially confusing. You don't say what state you're in, nor whether you might have moved there from another state. I note the Virginia driver's manual on the DMV website doesn't mention what happens when a school bus stops at an intersection with a median, for instance, but it does show traffic stopped in all directions at an intersection where a bus is stopped on a street with no median. I have no idea which principle trumps–not having to stop if there's a median, or all traffic in all directions stopping at the intersection. If you're in Virginia and you use Twitter, you could probably take a picture of the intersection and send it to a police department to ask what the law is. I asked Fairfax police a question about stopping for school buses and they replied quickly enough (mine related to a school bus moving into a turn lane with its flashing yellow lights, not red lights, on–could I still pass it before the red lights came on? Answer is yes but they recommend stopping in case a kid is in an unexpected location.)
Obviously regardless of what the law says, you should expect kids to do the unexpected or to act in disregard of traffic safety! So at a minimum it's never a bad idea to be ready to stop even if you aren't required to do so.
Later, I thought of a further point and followed up:
QuoteHopefully the picture will display. I took a screenshot of the Virginia driver's manual (recognizing other states' laws can and do vary), but if the image isn't displaying, go to the link below and scroll down to page 2.
Notice the first illustration in the right-side column showing traffic stopped in all directions at an intersection when a school bus is stopped at one leg of that intersection. Presumably the cross traffic must still stop if the school bus is on a street with a median. Why would traffic coming the other way on the street where the school bus is suddenly have a different rule just because there's a median? In particular, doesn't it seem probable that the school bus stopped at the intersection precisely because that's where there's a crosswalk to allow for crossing the street?
Virginia driver's manual chapter on safe driving (https://www.dmv.virginia.gov/webdoc/pdf/dmv39d.pdf)
(https://virginia.sportswar.com/post_images/general/00/00/00/11/95/78/81/11957881_0.jpg)
Regardless of what the state law is, I think it's a bad idea for school districts to have kids cross roads with medians, 4+ lane roads, or rural highways with 45+ mph speed limits, in order to get on/off a school bus.
In CT if the bus is stopped at a 4 way intersection like depicted in the pic, only north and south traffic would stop. East and west traffic wouldn't b/c the bus isn't in the intersection. Bc that picture depicted above happened in CT and cops were called on someone who didn't stop who was driving west and they said that person didn't break the law.
Thanks for the info on the VA law, 1995hoo. It's a far cry from what I'm used to in WA. Basically, you only stop for a school bus on two occasions: approaching on a two lane road, or when behind a bus (always). Nothing about intersections.
(https://i.imgur.com/imbugbH.png)
I knew Washington State was different from here because I saw it cited somewhere as an example of a state where the road's width makes a difference, but I figured naming specific states was too much detail for that forum. I saw somewhere that in West Virginia you sometimes have to stop even if there is a median.
Fascinating, because the Utah law I'm familiar with, as defined under code 41-6a-1302 (https://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title41/Chapter6A/41-6a-S1302.html) is a bit more restrictive:
(https://site.utah.gov/dps-highwaysafe/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2018/11/buspageimpage.jpg) (https://site.utah.gov/dps-highwaysafe/wp-content/uploads/sites/22/2015/02/ScreenShot2013-07-15at11.53.21AM.png)
It's a bit unclear what happens on roads with two lanes plus a center turn lane (like your middle example above), but it looks like opposing traffic would still have to stop.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 13, 2019, 04:25:13 PM
I knew Washington State was different from here because I saw it cited somewhere as an example of a state where the road's width makes a difference, but I figured naming specific states was too much detail for that forum. I saw somewhere that in West Virginia you sometimes have to stop even if there is a median.
I have to remember that not every state is as liberal. Even people here will sometimes stop incorrectly, although a brief
klaxon usually gets people moving (mostly because they stop out of uncertainty). Law here is that school bus stops may only permit children to cross one lane beyond the bus, hence why the law is worded the way it is.
I believe New York requires all traffic to stop, even with a median. Seems nutty to me.
Here's my interpretation of WA's law, when it comes to the example in the OP:
(https://i.imgur.com/vfX8Ckl.png)
BTW, jakeroot, if you drive in Montgomery County, Maryland, err on the side of stopping if you have any doubt: The school buses there use camera enforcement because they have such a huge problem with drivers not stopping.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 13, 2019, 06:05:18 PM
BTW, jakeroot, if you drive in Montgomery County, Maryland, err on the side of stopping if you have any doubt: The school buses there use camera enforcement because they have such a huge problem with drivers not stopping.
Thanks, I will keep my eyes peeled!
Camera enforcement has become relatively common out in WA as well, although its original use seemed to stem from drivers not stopping while proceeding in the same direction, not drivers going the other direction.
This just came up a couple days ago on the Boise subreddit. In Idaho, if you're going the opposite direction of the bus, you don't have to stop if there are 4 or more lanes on the road (2 each way). Here's a shot from the manual:
(https://preview.redd.it/9s6amkc4dex21.png?width=513&auto=webp&s=f6b81f854943516545f45a9a4f358180b7e25ce6)
The context of the post was he was complaining that people on State St (a busy mostly 5 lane undivided arterial) were stopping for school buses going in the other direction, when they don't have to.
I explained though, that where I grew up (Oregon), you do have to stop in that situation. Old habits are hard to break, especially when it involved school buses and kids. Lots of people moving to Idaho from other states, including Oregon. And when you aren't sure, you're probably going to err on the side of caution. In Oregon, the only time you don't have to stop, is if there is a physical median separating the two travel directions.
Oregon manual:
(https://i.imgur.com/WEp7bmx.png)
I find it interesting that Oregon and Washington are about as different as you can get on the matter. Growing up with the Oregon way being standard, I found even Idaho to be pretty loose on that law (though IMO it's probably a good balance), but Washington is way out there.
Quote from: doorknob60 on May 14, 2019, 06:08:00 PM
This just came up a couple days ago on the Boise subreddit. In Idaho, if you're going the opposite direction of the bus, you don't have to stop if there are 4 or more lanes on the road (2 each way). Here's a shot from the manual:
(https://preview.redd.it/9s6amkc4dex21.png?width=513&auto=webp&s=f6b81f854943516545f45a9a4f358180b7e25ce6)
The context of the post was he was complaining that people on State St (a busy mostly 5 lane undivided arterial) were stopping for school buses going in the other direction, when they don't have to.
I explained though, that where I grew up (Oregon), you do have to stop in that situation. Old habits are hard to break, especially when it involved school buses and kids. Lots of people moving to Idaho from other states, including Oregon. And when you aren't sure, you're probably going to err on the side of caution. In Oregon, the only time you don't have to stop, is if there is a physical median separating the two travel directions.
Oregon manual:
(https://i.imgur.com/WEp7bmx.png)
I find it interesting that Oregon and Washington are about as different as you can get on the matter. Growing up with the Oregon way being standard, I found even Idaho to be pretty loose on that law (though IMO it's probably a good balance), but Washington is way out there.
There's a huge difference there though. When they talk about a 4 lane "highway", they also show a median between the opposing lanes. Many states have laws where vehicles don't need to stop in the opposing direction when there's a median or barrier between the lanes. If Idaho means 4 or more lanes, they should've drawn an example where a double yellow is the only separation between the opposing lanes.
Then there's states like Arkansas where a stop is not required unless the road has four lanes and the median is 20 feet or larger. Having to determine the median width on the fly is a bit of an issue I don't like.
Or Wisconsin, (https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/safety/equipment/sch-bus/dont-pass.aspx) which can get panic stops when a school bus legally unloads in some cases without using its red lights.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2019, 06:22:47 PM
Quote from: doorknob60 on May 14, 2019, 06:08:00 PM
(snip)
There's a huge difference there though. When they talk about a 4 lane "highway", they also show a median between the opposing lanes. Many states have laws where vehicles don't need to stop in the opposing direction when there's a median or barrier between the lanes. If Idaho means 4 or more lanes, they should've drawn an example where a double yellow is the only separation between the opposing lanes.
You're right that the example in the picture is not the best. But whether or not there is a median does not make a difference in Idaho. And "highway" is legally the same thing as "roadway" in this context. They actually use the two interchangeably in the manual, you see it "highway" in the top and "roadway" by the pictures.
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 13, 2019, 12:56:23 PMRegardless of what the state law is, I think it's a bad idea for school districts to have kids cross roads with medians, 4+ lane roads, or rural highways with 45+ mph speed limits, in order to get on/off a school bus.
This thread has been interesting to follow just to see how much the exact requirements vary from state to state. In my local area I am not aware of any school bus stops that are not inside subdivisions, but out in rural areas it is often difficult to site a stop off a road that is at least nominally subject to a 55 limit.
In Kansas driver behavior around school buses is governed by KSA § 18-1556 (http://www.kslegislature.org/li_2016/b2015_16/statute/008_000_0000_chapter/008_015_0000_article/008_015_0056_section/008_015_0056_k/). It exempts drivers from stopping when the bus is on the other side of a divided highway and prohibits the bus driver from actuating the red lights and folding stop sign under certain circumstances, including when the bus is at an intersection.
In any given year I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have to stop for a school bus with the red lights and sign active.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
In Kansas driver behavior around school buses is governed by KSA § 18-1556 (http://www.kslegislature.org/li_2016/b2015_16/statute/008_000_0000_chapter/008_015_0000_article/008_015_0056_section/008_015_0056_k/). It exempts drivers from stopping when the bus is on the other side of a divided highway and prohibits the bus driver from actuating the red lights and folding stop sign under certain circumstances, including when the bus is at an intersection.
In any given year I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have to stop for a school bus with the red lights and sign active.
This is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 13, 2019, 12:56:23 PMRegardless of what the state law is, I think it's a bad idea for school districts to have kids cross roads with medians, 4+ lane roads, or rural highways with 45+ mph speed limits, in order to get on/off a school bus.
This thread has been interesting to follow just to see how much the exact requirements vary from state to state. In my local area I am not aware of any school bus stops that are not inside subdivisions, but out in rural areas it is often difficult to site a stop off a road that is at least nominally subject to a 55 limit.
You can't prevent having a bus stop on a 55mph area rural highway, but you can prevent making the kids cross the road to get to the bus. Have the bus stop on their side of the road, even if it means the bus has to backtrack on that road. I'm thinking specifically of the 3 kids killed in Northern Indiana while crossing a rural state highway in the dark (which is a point I brought up in the DST thread) to get to the bus going the other direction. If the bus doubles back to pick them up on their side of the road, they aren't crossing the road to get to the bus.
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 16, 2019, 08:52:15 AM
You can't prevent having a bus stop on a 55mph area rural highway, but you can prevent making the kids cross the road to get to the bus. Have the bus stop on their side of the road, even if it means the bus has to backtrack on that road. I'm thinking specifically of the 3 kids killed in Northern Indiana while crossing a rural state highway in the dark (which is a point I brought up in the DST thread) to get to the bus going the other direction. If the bus doubles back to pick them up on their side of the road, they aren't crossing the road to get to the bus.
Heh. Back in the 1980s, for a couple of years my mom worked part-time at Shrevewood Elementary in Fairfax County. In the Street View link below, the school is ahead to the right. Notice the last house on the left with the blue shutters. The principal deemed it unsafe for kids to cross Shreve Road on the way to or from school. My mom noted that a kid living in that house attended Shrevewood, so the bus had to continue past the school, make a U-turn at the far end of that island visible in the Street View image, pick him up, then turn around again to go drop off the kids at school. I guess in the afternoon at least his was the first stop..... (The road hasn't changed much through there since the 1980s. Speed limit is still 35 except when the flashing lights come on for the school zone. Only thing that's changed is a short distance to the east where the road crosses the W&OD Trail at Buckelew Drive and the intersection was reconfigured to improve visibility.)
https://goo.gl/maps/oX63w34w58vB273A8
Growing up, again in the 80's, my bus stop was about 1/4 mile away at a T-intersection. The bus would stop just beyond a T intersection. After we got on, the bus *backed up* into the intersection to turn around and exit the subdivision! That was always fun, as there was a ditch the bus could potentially fall into while backing up (looking back, the ditch was probably smaller than we thought, and the bus probably wouldn't have had an issue with it.
This was probably done as there was a portion of roadway that wasn't completed within the subdivision, so there wasn't a loop the bus could go around.
In junior and senior high, my bus stop was about 1/2 mile from my house, including walking along a portion of main county roadway with about a 1' shoulder. No sidewalk, and another ditch next to the road. At the bus stop, I crossed the roadway to get to the bus stop, then crossed back again with everyone else to catch the bus. Did that every day for about 5 years, until I got a car.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 16, 2019, 09:43:07 AM
Growing up, again in the 80's, my bus stop was about 1/4 mile away at a T-intersection. The bus would stop just beyond a T intersection. After we got on, the bus *backed up* into the intersection to turn around and exit the subdivision! That was always fun, as there was a ditch the bus could potentially fall into while backing up (looking back, the ditch was probably smaller than we thought, and the bus probably wouldn't have had an issue with it.
....
When I was in kindergarten through third grade,* so late 1970s/early 1980s, the school bus came through our neighborhood on its main street picking up kids at several of the corners on the way through. But there was no outlet, so at the dead end in the back of the neighborhood the bus did a three-point turn and headed back out and on to school with no other scheduled stops en route (though once we had an unscheduled stop in the afternoon when the bus driver rear-ended a VW Beetle at the old one-lane bridge on Woodburn Road). No ditch at the turnaround, though, just a wooden fence-type thing blocking off the end of the road. Since then a new neighborhood was completed beyond the dead end and the road was extended to link up with it (though there is a new dead end a short distance from the old one!), and I assume nowadays a school bus would just loop around through both neighborhoods instead of turning around.
Looking back, it seems to me it wasn't that far to the entrance to the neighborhood and they could have just had everyone walk down there instead of having all those bus stops within one neighborhood. I assume they didn't in part because our neighborhood alone filled up the school bus (and my stop was the busiest one), so it would have taken forever to load and unload all those kids at that intersection such that it was better to have the school bus out of the way of traffic. (It was less than half a mile walk from the back of the neighborhood by the dead end to the entrance, with no busy street crossings, though there was a long uphill and downhill in each direction. Back then, most parents would not have driven their kids to the bus stop as they seem to do today.) We never questioned why the bus stops were where they were, though.
*That school closed after third grade and for fourth grade I went to a different school than most of the kids in our neighborhood because I was in a magnet program, so I had a different bus stop. Then after fourth grade we moved and I walked to school for the next two years.
Did any of you older guys rides school buses, that set off before you were sat down?
Quote from: jakeroot on May 16, 2019, 11:01:26 AM
Did any of you older guys rides school buses, that set off before you were sat down?
Standing and the door was still open.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 16, 2019, 11:01:26 AM
Did any of you older guys rides school buses, that set off before you were sat down?
Until about 1973, we rode regular transit busses (late 1950s MACK buses), with regular transit system bus drivers - that the MBTA provided to cities and towns for school bus service. Not uncommon at all for the driver to start up before we were all seated.
Haha, very cool! I don't know if it's prohibited nowadays, but I've always seen it in older films, but never experienced it in person. Short of riding a metro bus.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 15, 2019, 10:29:45 PMThis is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.
This makes me wonder how stops at railroad crossings are handled. Here in Wichita at least, buses open the door but the stop sign remains folded and the red lights do not come on.
I would say about half the times I stop for a school bus are for a short bus that drops off a student several doors down who is in special education and thus receives door-to-door transportation with the bus required to load and unload with the door opening directly onto the driveway (in other words, the bus is not allowed to stop on the opposite side of the street). Nevertheless, the stop sign unfolds and the red lights flash.
I also went through special education and the loading/unloading protocol was the same, but I don't think the red lights or stop sign were deployed back then.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 16, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 15, 2019, 10:29:45 PMThis is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.
This makes me wonder how stops at railroad crossings are handled. Here in Wichita at least, buses open the door but the stop sign remains folded and the red lights do not come on.
Now that I think about it, the lights and flashers were never on when the buses were loading or unloading at school, which makes me think that the door switch did not trigger the lights and sign when the bus was in Park.
But I do seem to remember the buses triggering lights-and-sign whenever they stopped at a railroad crossing.
The only time I ever remember encountering a railroad crossing on a school bus was on a Boy Scout trip to PEI in 1989–the jamboree organizers used school buses to transport us all to various events. I remember the school bus came to a stop and then the driver had a heck of a time getting moving again. Why? The road was on a hill, the bus had a manual shift, and the driver wasn't used to having to work a clutch!
School buses always stopped and opened the doors at crossings when I was a kid in MA.
Quote from: Rothman on May 16, 2019, 05:12:22 PM
School buses always stopped and opened the doors at crossings when I was a kid in MA.
And they still do.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 16, 2019, 05:09:02 PM
The only time I ever remember encountering a railroad crossing on a school bus was on a Boy Scout trip to PEI in 1989–the jamboree organizers used school buses to transport us all to various events. I remember the school bus came to a stop and then the driver had a heck of a time getting moving again. Why? The road was on a hill, the bus had a manual shift, and the driver wasn't used to having to work a clutch!
And those old school buses have a heck of a clutch. I remember a petite lady driving one up at a camp in the Sandhills of Nebraska, and she had to use all her body weight just to depress the pedal.
I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train. Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time. He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing. The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit. 25 people died.
Chiming in for Nevada: Our law (see NRS 484B.353) states that all vehicles in both directions must stop, with exception of drivers on the opposite side of a divided highway or in instances where traffic is being controlled by a police officer.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2019, 03:49:47 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 16, 2019, 02:26:09 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 15, 2019, 10:29:45 PMThis is interesting, because on the school buses my school district used when I was growing up, the driver had no control over the red lights and sign. Both were actuated when the door was open according to a pressure switch placed behind the handle that opens the door. The only thing the driver had control over was the amber flashers, which could be turned on by a switch located on the console near the left driver's seat armrest; the flashers would remain on until the door was opened and a red-light-and-sign condition ended the amber-light condition.
This makes me wonder how stops at railroad crossings are handled. Here in Wichita at least, buses open the door but the stop sign remains folded and the red lights do not come on.
Now that I think about it, the lights and flashers were never on when the buses were loading or unloading at school, which makes me think that the door switch did not trigger the lights and sign when the bus was in Park.
But I do seem to remember the buses triggering lights-and-sign whenever they stopped at a railroad crossing.
The school buses I rode in the 1990s in Las Vegas (all either Blue Bird or Thomas Built Buses) were wired such that the driver flipped a switch to activate the yellow warning lights, and opening the front door while the switch was active automatically triggered the red lights and stop arm.
It was a semi-regular occurrence to have a bus idling after school with the door open but the red lights not flashing.
None of my bus routes regularly passed a railroad crossing. But I do have a recollection of being on a school bus that passed a railroad crossing in which the driver used hazards to signal the impending stop, such that when the driver opened the door to listen for a train the red lights and stop arm didn't come on.
(All the school buses used in my district were equipped with "Exterior Light Monitors" or "ELMO" above the driver, so you could see what the buses' lights were doing while inside.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 17, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train. Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time. He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing. The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit. 25 people died.
While not really serving as precedent, this famous video that many of us watched while we were kids used school bus stopping at RR crossings as the basis for explaining how a bill becomes a law. I assume it is a federal requirement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0
Watch the whole video, it's only 3 minutes, but the relevant part is at 0:45.
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 15, 2019, 06:07:49 PM
In any given year I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I have to stop for a school bus with the red lights and sign active.
Consider yourself lucky.
I almost always face some school bus on my current morning commute. Fortunately, they don't stop for too long and the bus stops aren't at random places and generally the bus is ahead of me on a two lane road in my direction. (This is fortunate, since I am unlikely to pass it by unawares as I might if it were on the opposite direction.)
When I lived in California, I almost never encountered stopped school buses on my driving.
Quote from: mrsman on May 19, 2019, 06:30:52 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 17, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train. Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time. He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing. The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit. 25 people died.
While not really serving as precedent, this famous video that many of us watched while we were kids used school bus stopping at RR crossings as the basis for explaining how a bill becomes a law. I assume it is a federal requirement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0
Watch the whole video, it's only 3 minutes, but the relevant part is at 0:45.
It is a federal requirement. However, the "I'm Just a Bill" video takes a bit of a liberty on the issue, according to its Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Just_a_Bill):
QuoteThe Bill is for the law that school buses must stop at railroad crossings. In the song, the Bill becomes a law; in reality, such a bill has never been approved by the United States Congress, but an equivalent regulation was codified by the United States Department of Transportation at 49 C.F.R. 392.10 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/392.10).
The law applies to all buses carrying passengers (not just school buses), as well as a variety of commercial vehicles that transport fuels and chemicals. And the required stopping distance is within 15—50 feet of the tracks.
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on May 13, 2019, 02:31:38 PM
In CT if the bus is stopped at a 4 way intersection like depicted in the pic, only north and south traffic would stop. East and west traffic wouldn't b/c the bus isn't in the intersection. Bc that picture depicted above happened in CT and cops were called on someone who didn't stop who was driving west and they said that person didn't break the law.
I second this. The statue is very clear on this:
At the intersection of two or more highways vehicular turns toward a school bus receiving or discharging passengers are prohibited. (14-279, (a)) Hell, you can even go straight if you want.
A note about driver's manuals: they are not necessarily verbatim what the law says. It does so happen that VA's statue makes no exception for turning away/proceeding straight from a school bus https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-859/ (https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter8/section46.2-859/)
I would not attempt to turn even if you state allows it if doing so, given the exact situation, would constitute reckless driving.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 13, 2019, 04:51:52 PM
I believe New York requires all traffic to stop, even with a median. Seems nutty to me.
You believe correctly.
It seems less nutty when you consider that the vast majority of roads with medians in New York are urban/suburban arterials, or even urban/suburban residential streets. Rural divided highways that aren't freeways are generally rare in the northeast.
I mean, if a school bus stops here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9155163,-73.7721614,3a,75y,307.16h,75.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dwz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D69.93015%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?
(well, no one should actually be required to stop for a school bus anywhere, but that's a separate argument)
Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 13, 2019, 04:51:52 PM
I believe New York requires all traffic to stop, even with a median. Seems nutty to me.
You believe correctly.
It seems less nutty when you consider that the vast majority of roads with medians in New York are urban/suburban arterials, or even urban/suburban residential streets. Rural divided highways that aren't freeways are generally rare in the northeast.
I mean, if a school bus stops here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9155163,-73.7721614,3a,75y,307.16h,75.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dwz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D69.93015%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?
(well, no one should actually be required to stop for a school bus anywhere, but that's a separate argument)
Depends. Do schools create bus stops where kids need to cross that median?
Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
I mean, if a school bus stops here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9155163,-73.7721614,3a,75y,307.16h,75.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dwz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D69.93015%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?
If I may remind you of the law in WA (last page)... you only stop if there's no lane or barrier (not pictured) between you and the bus.
(https://i.imgur.com/imbugbH.png)
There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 12:17:07 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
I mean, if a school bus stops here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9155163,-73.7721614,3a,75y,307.16h,75.95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1swz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dwz2wFHsc-9xIYPEe3kv09Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D69.93015%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), should traffic coming the other way really be exempt from stopping?
If I may remind you of the law in WA (last page)... you only stop if there's no lane or barrier (not pictured) between you and the bus.
(https://i.imgur.com/imbugbH.png)
There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.
Whoa. That far right picture looks crazy. A yellow line is a "barrier" in WA?
Quote from: Rothman on May 21, 2019, 01:26:32 PM
Whoa. That far right picture looks crazy. A yellow line is a "barrier" in WA?
I forgot to mention in that quoted post that you only stop on two-lane roads. Three or more lanes does not require a stop. This rule is rooted in WA administrative code, which does not permit students to cross more than one lane of traffic unless there is a signal or someone to control a crosswalk (WAC 392-145-011). In those cases, there are other control devices to stop the flow of traffic, so that's an understandable exception. Bus routes are designed so that children only cross one lane.
From RCW 46.61.370 (https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.370)...
Quote
(2) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway divided into separate roadways as provided in RCW 46.61.150 need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children.
(3) The driver of a vehicle upon a highway with three or more marked traffic lanes need not stop upon meeting a school bus which is proceeding in the opposite direction and is stopped for the purpose of receiving or discharging school children
Most states, as far as I know, have
four or more marked traffic lanes as their minimum, probably as a cautionary move. This prevents situations like in my above diagram pretty much anywhere else, as most four lane roads are 2+2, though I suppose something similar could occur on a 3+1 road.
Should be noted that, on roads with three or more lanes, buses may pull off the roadway to pick up children, to avoid stopping traffic in either direction, if they so wish (~5 in above law).
For the record, there are a lot of laws in WA that are rare in other places.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.
Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 02:24:50 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.
Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?
How are you to tell what the bus is doing if the lights are not on, especially if you're coming from the other direction?
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 21, 2019, 03:41:17 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 02:24:50 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.
Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?
How are you to tell what the bus is doing if the lights are not on, especially if you're coming from the other direction?
Exactly. There's been more than once that I've seen a school bus driver parked along the side of the road with the door open, talking to someone outside–no lights, no sign, not boarding or discharging school children. Yet, from the perspective of a driver on the road, it looks exactly the same. Except the presence or absence of children, of course, but
how can you the driver know if there are children waiting to step down off the bus?
I guess you have to be prepared to stop if you do see kids getting off. I'd think this is easier if you're coming from the other direction.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 02:24:50 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 21, 2019, 01:04:44 PM
Even nutter is VA allows school busses to receive or discharge passengers without their lights on... and still requires drivers to stop.
Why is that nutty? What if the lights malfunction or something else goes wrong with the bus during its run?
The FMCSS requires checking the warning lights as part of the pre-trip. They're not supposed to be put into service if they don't work.
That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?
The bus driver stops and calls for a tow + replacement. The kids will be late, but it's unsafe/inadvisable/illegal(?) to operate a bus without operable lights.
Source: my grandfather is a school bus driver.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 13, 2019, 06:05:18 PM
The school buses there use camera enforcement because they have such a huge problem with drivers not stopping.
Do they enforce their own drivers stopping for 'real' stop signs with it too? I know where I live, I've witnessed the same bus about 99% of the time running a stop sign right below my house the last two years when I'm out during garbage day. Sure, 2 of the ways for the intersection are 'dead-ends', but they want to complain about people running their 'STOP' sign? They need to follow the law too.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?
The bus driver stops and calls for a tow + replacement. The kids will be late, but it's unsafe/inadvisable/illegal(?) to operate a bus without operable lights.
Source: my grandfather is a school bus driver.
I imagine it's standard practice in most districts to have spare buses anyway. My school district (a fairly small rural one) ran bus routes 1—5 and 7, but reserved bus 6 as a stand-in when the other buses were in the shop. (They also had a bus 8 as a back-up for the back-up, in case one of the buses was needed for a field trip, or two buses were down at once.)
I was always excited to get to board bus 6 rather than my usual 3, because 6 was used so infrequently that it was generally cleaner and in better repair than the daily-driver 3 was. That and I was a huge nerd. (Getting to use bus 8 was incredibly rare and I think only happened once or twice the whole time I was in school.)
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 12:17:07 PM
There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.
See but that's the thing. WA may have restrictive rules about school bus stop placement, and force the school bus to turn around to get kids on the other side of the street. But this is WA being special. NY will not do this - they will have the bus stop on one side of that street for kids who live on both sides of it. They would advise that anyone who needs to cross to the other side do so at the corner rather than midblock, but d'ya think all the kids follow that advice?
As for disabled kids, I don't know what WA does, but around here regular school buses are not handicapped-accessible. There are dedicated accessible buses for disabled kids and
those will always stop directly in front of the house of each passenger (so there wouldn't be a need to cross the median). But the law does not treat these accessible school buses differently from the regular ones, especially since they can and sometimes are used to transport non-handicapped students who would be perfectly capable of crossing such a barrier.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 11:44:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 12:17:07 PM
There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.
See but that's the thing. WA may have restrictive rules about school bus stop placement, and force the school bus to turn around to get kids on the other side of the street. But this is WA being special. NY will not do this - they will have the bus stop on one side of that street for kids who live on both sides of it. They would advise that anyone who needs to cross to the other side do so at the corner rather than midblock, but d'ya think all the kids follow that advice?
It's not about turning around. Routes are designed from the on-set to eliminate crossing more than one lane. Arterials often have two separate routes, and right turns are very common. Route design is apparently a hell of a lot more clever than what is seen in NY, especially if there's an expectation that students need to mount a freakin' median. Buses should at least stop at the corner. Though, if that's the case, you've been relying on a straw-man argument.
The WAC (which determined the two-lane max rule for children crossing)
does permit buses to load children from both sides of 3+ lane or divided roadways, but only when a separate traffic control device (signal, marked crosswalk, flagger) is present, permitting the children to cross to that side without the aid of a school bus. In the case of your example, rather than forcing children to mount the median, they'd either stop at Route 1 (near the signal), or near the Jefferson/Adams intersection, where traffic would be required to stop without the median.
(As far as handicapped accessible buses, I realize this is a moot point since even those in crutches could simply walk around the median via the corner, if for some reason the bus did actually stop mid-block).
My problem with NY really isn't that stopping would be required on a small two-lane divided road. It's that stopping would be required on roads that are basically expressways. I understand stopping one direction of major roads, in case some kid runs the wrong way, but both directions is overkill, in light of the view that oncoming traffic would have.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 06:40:15 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?
The bus driver stops and calls for a tow + replacement. The kids will be late, but it's unsafe/inadvisable/illegal(?) to operate a bus without operable lights.
Source: my grandfather is a school bus driver.
See, but even then, the kids have to get off the "problem" bus somewhere. They're not likely to back them up to each other and tell the kids to use the emergency doors to jump from one bus to another.
I really don't think Virginia is unusual in requiring you to stop. I've seen more than one state with signs saying "Stop for school bus loading or unloading children–State Law." They don't put "when lights are flashing" after "children." The other vehicles' drivers have the responsibility to stay alert. I really don't think it's a big deal.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 21, 2019, 06:32:42 PM
That's nice. What if the lights malfunction after the bus is underway and kids are on board?
If it's just the yellow/red flashing lights, the bus could continue straight to the school and unload the kids there. A 2nd bus can be sent to get the other kids. If it's another issue that needs more immediate attention, and the bus can't make it to the school or a parking lot, a 2nd bus can pull up behind the first bus, and the kids can just walk from one to the other. If it's necessary, a cop can pull up to the scene and assist.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 21, 2019, 11:44:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2019, 12:17:07 PM
There's no way children would/should be required to cross that barrier in your link, especially those who are disabled. So no, I would not understand stopping along that road. Approaching with caution is always wise, but stopping is another thing entirely.
See but that's the thing. WA may have restrictive rules about school bus stop placement, and force the school bus to turn around to get kids on the other side of the street. But this is WA being special. NY will not do this - they will have the bus stop on one side of that street for kids who live on both sides of it. They would advise that anyone who needs to cross to the other side do so at the corner rather than midblock, but d'ya think all the kids follow that advice?
I would wonder if this is a school district issue...and resident issue. I'm sure some towns have Beverly Goldberg-type moms who demand individual stops at every house, no road crossings, etc, and will fight non-stop until they get what they want. Other areas or towns may not have this issue, and parents are more permissible in allowing kids to cross the street.
Also depends on school policy, sidewalks, etc. The bus departments for schools should be extremely familiar with the entire town, and no doubt do drive-bys (which we'll never be aware of because they're in regular vehicles) seeing what conditions exist. They have to make sure their buses can move around as well, and will probably try to avoid conditions such as tight turns or bus stops in blind spots if at all possible.
Also, as mentioned, just because the kids live on opposite sides of the street doesn't mean the bus needs to turn around. If the area has multiple buses passing by, they can easily have two different buses picking up kids in the area.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 22, 2019, 01:18:08 AM
My problem with NY really isn't that stopping would be required on a small two-lane divided road. It's that stopping would be required on roads that are basically expressways. I understand stopping one direction of major roads, in case some kid runs the wrong way, but both directions is overkill, in light of the view that oncoming traffic would have.
Yes, agreed that this is obtuse. Take a road like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1625365,-77.6594373,3a,38.2y,189.75h,88.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1st7bOlZuSfaw-CbwOCEkV0A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1), for example. It totally defies one's expectations to have to stop for a bus five or six lanes away - and yes, buses do stop on this section of Mt. Read. :-|
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 22, 2019, 08:01:32 AM
I would wonder if this is a school district issue...and resident issue. I'm sure some towns have Beverly Goldberg-type moms who demand individual stops at every house, no road crossings, etc, and will fight non-stop until they get what they want. Other areas or towns may not have this issue, and parents are more permissible in allowing kids to cross the street.
The extent to which the stereotypical overprotective moms get involved probably really depends on the roadway - and neighborhood - character. Around here, buses may do several stops within a neighborhood, but not necessarily every house. The more houses that have kids to pick up, the less likely the bus is to stop for each one individually. Take this neighborhood (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.162253,-77.4594749,3a,75y,198.2h,88.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNjdHdSG_B_VgbtciA5dnsw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1), for example. The cul-de-sac on the right has about 8 houses. The bus is not going to actually go down that cul-de-sac and do individual stops. All the kids from those houses can come to the corner and get on at once. Where I would draw the line is for areas that aren't actually "neighborhoods". Anything with a double solid yellow line should probably not have kids crossing the street - too dangerous with the additional through traffic and drivers potentially not expecting it.
In my own neighborhood, some kids got their own stop, while there were some bulk stops. At one point kids from 4 houses got on at our stop, but now that we don't have any bus riders, the bus stop has moved down the street to reduce the amount of kids walking to the bus stop.
I've been on school buses that broke down or were in traffic accidents where we had to change to other buses. In no case did we go directly from one bus to the other without getting off the first bus. I can definitely think of one case where traffic did not stop, though: We were on our way back from Richmond when the bus started leaking diesel fuel on I-95 and the driver pulled way off on the right shoulder. We all had to get off and go wait up on top of the grass hill next to the highway. The red lights never came on and traffic, understandably, didn't stop (that would have caused a pileup!).
School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic. The law really should require them to pull over when this happens. I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house. Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.
Quote from: roadfro on May 20, 2019, 11:16:12 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 19, 2019, 06:30:52 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on May 17, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
I think it is a federal requirement (though I don't know chapter and verse offhand in the USC or CFR) that school buses have to stop at all railroad crossings (front of the bus within 5 ft and 15 ft of the nearest rail) and each such stop has to include opening of the door to improve the driver's ability to hear a train. Supposedly the inspiration for this requirement is a 1938 crash near Sandy, Utah, where the driver did stop, but was not expecting a train at that time. He kept the door shut and there was a blizzard, so he did not see a diverted express train coming down the line as the bus moved onto the crossing. The bus was pushed along the tracks for about half a mile after being hit. 25 people died.
While not really serving as precedent, this famous video that many of us watched while we were kids used school bus stopping at RR crossings as the basis for explaining how a bill becomes a law. I assume it is a federal requirement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyeJ55o3El0
Watch the whole video, it's only 3 minutes, but the relevant part is at 0:45.
It is a federal requirement. However, the "I'm Just a Bill" video takes a bit of a liberty on the issue, according to its Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Just_a_Bill):
QuoteThe Bill is for the law that school buses must stop at railroad crossings. In the song, the Bill becomes a law; in reality, such a bill has never been approved by the United States Congress, but an equivalent regulation was codified by the United States Department of Transportation at 49 C.F.R. 392.10 (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/392.10).
The law applies to all buses carrying passengers (not just school buses), as well as a variety of commercial vehicles that transport fuels and chemicals. And the required stopping distance is within 15—50 feet of the tracks.
Thanks for the complete story. I suppose for the purposes of kids who watched this umpteen times on Saturday mornings back in the 70's and 80's they wanted to pick a rule that was relateable to the 5 to 10 year olds who were watching. And I suppose most of the kids watching have ridden school buses and may or may not have noticed their buses coming to a complete stop (and even opening their doors) on the approach to railroad crossings. In any event, as a kid, I found it informative and the song very memorable!
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 22, 2019, 12:19:31 PM
School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic. The law really should require them to pull over when this happens. I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house. Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.
There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that. Stopping at every house is ridiculous. In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.
Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.
In the snow, uphill both ways? :-D
At any rate, it is worth noting that requiring vehicles to stop for school buses is rather unusual and extreme, globally speaking. While ubiquitous in US and Canada, it is unheard of elsewhere. In most of the world, the law either prescribes a maximum speed at which a stopped school bus may be passed, or simply says you need to be careful while doing so. Any vehicles passing a stopped school bus are, naturally, expected to yield to any children crossing the street, if there are any.
This is why ultimately I would argue that requiring all traffic to stop whenever a school bus does is needlessly dictatorial, and something which should be done away with in favor of less restrictive measures such as "do not pass a stopped school bus at more than 20 mph, yield to any children crossing the street". The rest of the world gets by on this just fine and isn't seeing kids run over left and right because of it.
The issue with that idea here is that the Internet is replete of videos of drivers behaving badly around school buses.
I am fine with getting rid of the "stop at all rail crossings" laws, but stopping for school buses seems still to be prudent.
Quote from: Rothman on May 22, 2019, 08:09:41 PM
The issue with that idea here is that the Internet is replete of videos of drivers behaving badly around school buses.
Most of the videos just seem to be violations that would otherwise be legal maneuvers outside North America.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 22, 2019, 06:06:47 PM
I would argue that requiring all traffic to stop whenever a school bus does is needlessly dictatorial, and something which should be done away with in favor of less restrictive measures such as "do not pass a stopped school bus at more than 20 mph, yield to any children crossing the street". The rest of the world gets by on this just fine and isn't seeing kids run over left and right because of it.
You are more liberal on this topic than I would have expected. I would be fine with this, so long as we eliminate stops that pickup from both sides of the street. Everything would need to be right-side only.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 22, 2019, 06:06:47 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.
In the snow, uphill both ways? :-D
At any rate, it is worth noting that requiring vehicles to stop for school buses is rather unusual and extreme, globally speaking. While ubiquitous in US and Canada, it is unheard of elsewhere. In most of the world, the law either prescribes a maximum speed at which a stopped school bus may be passed, or simply says you need to be careful while doing so. Any vehicles passing a stopped school bus are, naturally, expected to yield to any children crossing the street, if there are any.
This is why ultimately I would argue that requiring all traffic to stop whenever a school bus does is needlessly dictatorial, and something which should be done away with in favor of less restrictive measures such as "do not pass a stopped school bus at more than 20 mph, yield to any children crossing the street". The rest of the world gets by on this just fine and isn't seeing kids run over left and right because of it.
I agree. To some extent, it would be nice if it was treated a lot more like transit buses. No expectation that you would be able to just cross the street as soon as you get off the bus. You get off on the right side and you wait to cross when it is safe. Busier streets should be crossed at traffic lsignals.
I guess as an open question, for a divided street, in most states, only the traffic on the side of the street with the bus has to stop, but not the side opposite. Why? Because for the most part, you don't expect kids to cross the street. So why have the traffic stop at all?
It is especially hard when the bus reaches the school. Imagine in a city, without a bus parking lot, and the bus is on the street on the side of the school. IT could take close to 10 minutes to unload a bus. Should all traffic be stopped for this, especially when everyone is not even crossing the street? I think in this circumstance, the bus does not flash their lights, but I don't know that for sure.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 22, 2019, 09:32:59 AM
I've been on school buses that broke down or were in traffic accidents where we had to change to other buses. In no case did we go directly from one bus to the other without getting off the first bus. I can definitely think of one case where traffic did not stop, though: We were on our way back from Richmond when the bus started leaking diesel fuel on I-95 and the driver pulled way off on the right shoulder. We all had to get off and go wait up on top of the grass hill next to the highway. The red lights never came on and traffic, understandably, didn't stop (that would have caused a pileup!).
I can recall a bad pileup years ago north of Boston, and maybe someone else from around there can remember it, where a school bus had pulled over to the side of either I-93 or I-495 and when they opened the door, the red lights activated and just enough people instinctively slowed/stopped (even though they were on the expressway mainline) that it caused a bad pileup that blocked the road for hours afterward. It was on either 93 or 495, near the intersection of those two roads, and involved a broken-down school bus that had pulled over and inadvertently activated its lights. I can't remember exactly when, but it was quite a few years back.
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2019, 09:59:49 PM
I guess as an open question, for a divided street, in most states, only the traffic on the side of the street with the bus has to stop, but not the side opposite. Why? Because for the most part, you don't expect kids to cross the street. So why have the traffic stop at all?
I'd say the difference is that there
is a reasonable expectation school children will cross minor streets and roads (two lanes) but much less so that they will cross major thoroughfares (divided).
Quote from: kphoger on May 23, 2019, 01:58:12 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2019, 09:59:49 PM
I guess as an open question, for a divided street, in most states, only the traffic on the side of the street with the bus has to stop, but not the side opposite. Why? Because for the most part, you don't expect kids to cross the street. So why have the traffic stop at all?
I'd say the difference is that there is a reasonable expectation school children will cross minor streets and roads (two lanes) but much less so that they will cross major thoroughfares (divided).
I think it's expected, although I also think schools are increasingly attempting to create bus routes and stops where kids don't have to cross the street, especially on county and state roads. In developments, it's probably more likely kids will be asked to cross the street.
There's always the not-really-thinking factor: Kid's getting on or off a bus, and something flies out of their hand. Out of instinct, they run after it, crossing the road.
And before you say anything about kids need to be more aware of their surroundings, one of the major cited reasons for auto accidents by adults - inattentiveness. Adults are constantly not giving a second though about their actions. While it's way more innocent, think about the times someone in a supermarket just walks in front of you (and in many cases, without a sorry, or worse, they act like you're at fault).
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2019, 02:13:20 PM
There's always the not-really-thinking factor: Kid's getting on or off a bus, and something flies out of their hand. Out of instinct, they run after it, crossing the road.
Washington State has attempted to deter incidents like this, by installing crossing arms on the front of school buses. It's a yellow bar that extends from the bumper when the red lights are flashing. This forces children to walk around the yellow bar. The primary idea is to make sure children cross where the bus driver can see them, but it's also used to deter incidents where children go flying into the street, immediately after getting off the bus. The bar basically trips them up.
I've seen these in other states, as well as some places in Canada. But they are standard here, and have been for some time, following an incident.
Kids chasing objects they dropped are also a reason many newer school buses have flat fronts. When I was a kid, school buses had the engine under a hood, but that was found to make it harder for bus drivers to spot small children. The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 23, 2019, 04:36:18 PM
Kids chasing objects they dropped are also a reason many newer school buses have flat fronts. When I was a kid, school buses had the engine under a hood, but that was found to make it harder for bus drivers to spot small children. The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.
I thought the front bar was basically a standard design in all states now. If not all, then many.
I've seen a few buses at one time with flat fronts, but they never really gained much traction here in NJ. Nearly all current buses I've seen have the engine under the hood.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2019, 04:41:08 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 23, 2019, 04:36:18 PM
Kids chasing objects they dropped are also a reason many newer school buses have flat fronts. When I was a kid, school buses had the engine under a hood, but that was found to make it harder for bus drivers to spot small children. The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.
I thought the front bar was basically a standard design in all states now. If not all, then many.
I've seen a few buses at one time with flat fronts, but they never really gained much traction here in NJ. Nearly all current buses I've seen have the engine under the hood.
I didn't mean to imply the flat front is used in lieu of the bar. School buses in Fairfax County these days usually have both. I think there are still some that don't have the flat front (especially the smaller buses for special ed kids), but they all have the bar as far as I know.
I think you two are describing buses that are either cabover, or conventional. Cabover buses have a flat front with the engine below, whereas conventional buses have the engine in front of the driver.
Virtually all school buses in Washington State are cabover. This is not true in British Columbia, where conventional is more popular.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2019, 04:41:08 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 23, 2019, 04:36:18 PM
The swing-out bar jakeroot describes is also used for the same reason.
I thought the front bar was basically a standard design in all states now. If not all, then many.
It may be. They're on all WA buses, and have been since 1992. But it's not in the FMVSS.
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 22, 2019, 12:19:31 PM
School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic. The law really should require them to pull over when this happens. I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house. Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.
There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that. Stopping at every house is ridiculous. In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.
Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.
for some reason, Florida seems to love keeping buses on main streets and not pulling into subdivisions. Where I live now, all 6 buses that serve us stop outside of our 1000+ home community and load/unload the ENTIRE BUS on the main artery, causing 15-20 minutes of severe backup 6 times a day. I really don't understand why they can't pull into the communities around here.
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 25, 2019, 07:42:16 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 22, 2019, 12:19:31 PM
School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic. The law really should require them to pull over when this happens. I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house. Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.
There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that. Stopping at every house is ridiculous. In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.
Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.
for some reason, Florida seems to love keeping buses on main streets and not pulling into subdivisions. Where I live now, all 6 buses that serve us stop outside of our 1000+ home community and load/unload the ENTIRE BUS on the main artery, causing 15-20 minutes of severe backup 6 times a day. I really don't understand why they can't pull into the communities around here.
I would think that the community is banning them from entering if they are doing their stuff on the main road.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on May 25, 2019, 08:57:17 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 25, 2019, 07:42:16 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 22, 2019, 01:37:56 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 22, 2019, 12:19:31 PM
School busses are a nuisance when they hold up traffic. The law really should require them to pull over when this happens. I know of routes in my town where its a main road and they have to stop at every house. Sometimes 20 or more cars will line up behind it.
There should be some adjustments to prevent something like that. Stopping at every house is ridiculous. In many districts, kids are expected to walk up to half a mile to a bus stop where many kids will wait.
Also, many jurisdictions will try to re-route buses off the main streets if there is a parallel street that they can use so as not to disrupt too much traffic.
for some reason, Florida seems to love keeping buses on main streets and not pulling into subdivisions. Where I live now, all 6 buses that serve us stop outside of our 1000+ home community and load/unload the ENTIRE BUS on the main artery, causing 15-20 minutes of severe backup 6 times a day. I really don't understand why they can't pull into the communities around here.
I would think that the community is banning them from entering if they are doing their stuff on the main road.
Nope. The last community I was in I was president of the HOA, we tried to convince the school district to bring the bus into the community as it was a 2 mile walk to the bus stop from the furthest house and we didn't want kids dropped off on a road with a 50mph speed limit. They said no, it would be a liability as its private roadways.
Now I'm in a community with public roadways, and again asked the district if they can pull into the community, due to the traffic issues the bus causes, and was told no, the buses are on a tight schedule, and leaving the main roadways would add several minutes to the dropoff and make them need more buses. I've lived in 5 counties throughout the state of Florida and not one of them was pulling the buses into neighborhoods, unless there is someone handicapped that is unable to make the bus stop.
I grew up in Jersey and the bus went to the corner down the street from my house and an easy walk. Here, everyone drives to the community entries and waits with their kids, which makes traffic even more of a mess as you get like 20-30 cars now parked at that intersection as well. Total insanity. But its a couple miles from home to the bus stop for some of the people, so who can blame them.
When I first moved to Florida as student, no bus was offered to me and I had to walk over 2 miles to school, my parents tried to get them to get a bus for me as the policy was that distance should have had a bus offered to me, but they refused, initially claiming they measure as the crow flies (apparently I should fly or swim to school?), and after my parents argued how ridiculous that was, they then argued the bus wouldn't go into the community, and if they added a bus, it'd be at the intersection on the major road, which was over half way there and within the distance they don't offer bus service so I was forced to walk.
Disastrous.
They really should implement European style stopping in that kind of situation. Nobody is going to cross a multi-lane arterial anyway.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 06:21:44 PM
I think you two are describing buses that are either cabover, or conventional. Cabover buses have a flat front with the engine below, whereas conventional buses have the engine in front of the driver.
Virtually all school buses in Washington State are cabover. This is not true in British Columbia, where conventional is more popular.
Virtually all school buses in Massachusetts are conventional.
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 26, 2019, 01:06:38 AM
HOA ... it would be a liability as its private roadways.
I think there's the answer, right there.
Quote from: roadman on May 28, 2019, 09:17:15 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2019, 06:21:44 PM
I think you two are describing buses that are either cabover, or conventional. Cabover buses have a flat front with the engine below, whereas conventional buses have the engine in front of the driver.
Virtually all school buses in Washington State are cabover. This is not true in British Columbia, where conventional is more popular.
Virtually all school buses in Massachusetts are conventional.
Important note (not mentioned in my post): There are four types of school buses. The most common ones are Type-C and Type-D. The former is shorter, usually called "conventional" with a typical hood; Type-D is "cabover [engine]", but sometimes rear-engined as well.
I would have expected cabover (Type-D) buses to be at least somewhat popular in parts of New England, with the tighter roads and more dense environment. Maneuverability is an important part of why Type-D has remained popular for school and metro buses; they spend all their time in urban areas, so why bother with the harder-to-maneuver conventional style?
This (below...Thomas Saf-T-Liner HDX) is probably the most popular type of bus I see in Pierce County, WA. After looking around for the last week, I realize that certain WA cities, like Seattle, have a fair number of conventional buses. More than in the South Sound. The most popular "short" bus is probably the Thomas Saf-T-Liner C2 (not pictured):
(https://thomasbuiltbuses.com/content/uploads/2017/02/2.4hero.jpg)
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 26, 2019, 01:06:38 AM
Now I'm in a community with public roadways, and again asked the district if they can pull into the community, due to the traffic issues the bus causes, and was told no, the buses are on a tight schedule, and leaving the main roadways would add several minutes to the dropoff and make them need more buses. I've lived in 5 counties throughout the state of Florida and not one of them was pulling the buses into neighborhoods, unless there is someone handicapped that is unable to make the bus stop.
Does your school board have districts representing specific areas? If so, your district school board member is the door to getting this changed. If your neighborhood has enough voters, and those voters put pressure on the school board member, you'll get your bus stop.
Quote from: cabiness42 on May 29, 2019, 08:44:49 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on May 26, 2019, 01:06:38 AM
Now I'm in a community with public roadways, and again asked the district if they can pull into the community, due to the traffic issues the bus causes, and was told no, the buses are on a tight schedule, and leaving the main roadways would add several minutes to the dropoff and make them need more buses. I've lived in 5 counties throughout the state of Florida and not one of them was pulling the buses into neighborhoods, unless there is someone handicapped that is unable to make the bus stop.
Does your school board have districts representing specific areas? If so, your district school board member is the door to getting this changed. If your neighborhood has enough voters, and those voters put pressure on the school board member, you'll get your bus stop.
Everyone seems to expect it, think its no big deal, and is fine with the county's answer that there is no time on the bus routes to turn off the arterial roads.... except for me, for some weird reason lol