AARoads Forum

Over the years, I've read countless articles about over-the-air broadcasting, but this is something I've never read much about.

Back in the days before cable, did rural areas and small towns have good reception of analog signals? Was the reception snowy at best? Did your area get all the networks, and were they all from the same city? I do remember reading that some areas in eastern Kentucky were among the last places in America to get reliable reception, before a station in Hazard signed on.

I was around before cable was popular, but I lived in an urban area near Cincinnati, so we could get maybe 5 to 7 stations pretty clearly. But when the Cincinnati affiliates preempted network shows (as they often did), we had to watch the Dayton stations, which were very snowy. I had to do this well into the 2000s, because by that time, I didn't have cable anymore, and our cable system didn't have Dayton channels anyway.

I know that nowadays, I can't get WWMT (3) over the air in Kalamazoo.  I live in Kalamazoo Township about a quarter of mile from the city limits.  I can sometimes pull in WOTV (41) and WXMI (17) since they have transmitters within 5 miles of me.  When I was a kid, back in the early/mid 1990s, I could get WWMT (3), WOOD (8), WZZM (13), WXMI (17), WGVU (35), and WOTV (41) pretty clearly in Allegan, Michigan unless there was a thunderstorm.  I could occasionally get stations from Lansing and South Bend (mostly South Bend) too.  I did pick up Milwaukee one night in 1996 or 1997.  IIRC, there was some severe thunderstorms coming across Lake Michigan somewhere between Holland and Muskegon with a line extending down to around the Quad Cities, because I remember watching Bill Steffen (WZZM at the time, now at WOOD) give out warnings and the meteorologist in Milwaukee do the same.

Many rural areas, especially in mountainous areas in the west and northeast that didn't have cable, plus farming areas of the midwest far away from the cities, had low-power translators that were located on high ground, picked up the "parent" stations, and relayed them into the towns and valleys. 

Before cellphones, many of those translators operated on Channels 70-83, making them next to useless because UHF receiving technology just wasn't developed enough yet (that also killed many "regular" UHF stations in the 1950s & '60s that operated on lower channels).  By the time technology improved (early 1980s), the upper UHF channels were reallocated to cellphone services, the translators moved down to Channels 14-69, and were allowed higher power.  Also, many were even lower-powered VHF translators that covered maybe 5 miles or so.

Translators still exist, but now that most have converted to digital, their coverage is better in most cases.

I was in a similar situation, and not too far from you.  I grew up in Bloomington IN, which was considered part of the Indianapolis TV market, but not all stations came in well in our hilly part of Indiana.  Sometimes, we had to swing the antenna around to get stations in Terre Haute, Louisville, or occasionally Cincy (100 miles away), to watch a program that was preempted in Indy.  But for some reason, we had a fairly good shot to Chicago, so my dad could watch his Cubs games directly from WGN-TV, although through a snowy picture.

My area did not get cable until late 1983 because my street had underground wiring.  Until then, we had a rooftop antenna.  My house was about 15 miles southwest of Hartford, CT, and we were able to get all Hartford/New Haven affiliates, WWLP and WGGB from Springfield, MA, and rimshot reception of WNEW (now WNYW) out of NYC, and maybe a couple of other NYC affiliates.  Once we got cable, we got all Hartford/New Haven, Springfield, and NYC affiliates, along with Channel 38 out of Boston (the system used to carry WLVI Channel 56, but dropped it before we got it).   I do remember having to use a little switch box with a turn knob to turn the antenna to a certain position to get a certain station.  The two tv sets upstairs were hooked to it, while there was a little black and white portable set in the kitchen downstairs with rabbit ears that got most of the Hartford/New Haven affiliates (I'm right in between the two cities, so while my street was in a rural area with hills all around, reception was pretty strong.

Quote from: ce929wax on May 14, 2019, 11:41:45 PM
I know that nowadays, I can't get WWMT (3) over the air in Kalamazoo.  I live in Kalamazoo Township about a quarter of mile from the city limits.  I can sometimes pull in WOTV (41) and WXMI (17) since they have transmitters within 5 miles of me.  When I was a kid, back in the early/mid 1990s, I could get WWMT (3), WOOD (8), WZZM (13), WXMI (17), WGVU (35), and WOTV (41) pretty clearly in Allegan, Michigan unless there was a thunderstorm.  I could occasionally get stations from Lansing and South Bend (mostly South Bend) too.  I did pick up Milwaukee one night in 1996 or 1997.  IIRC, there was some severe thunderstorms coming across Lake Michigan somewhere between Holland and Muskegon with a line extending down to around the Quad Cities, because I remember watching Bill Steffen (WZZM at the time, now at WOOD) give out warnings and the meteorologist in Milwaukee do the same.

What kind of antenna are you using?  Even for local stations, an outside antenna with directivity is mandatory.  A preamp may also be useful.  Rabbit ears for VHF and UHF loops won't work on digital TV.  The signal may be decent, but multipath is the killer. 

Back in the analog days, multipath from airplanes, trees, clouds, etc. would be the ghosts that you might see on some channels.  With digital, the signal is gone unless reception is 100% perfect.  Lightning? Heavy rain or a blizzard?  Fuggetaboutit.  There is little error correction in ATSC 1.0.  The new system that's being tested right now, ATSC 3.0 is supposed to improve things, but older TVs will be SOL, and newer ones might be able to work with a firmware update via the internet.

My experience with digital is that reception is much, much, much worse now.

Quote from: bandit957 on May 14, 2019, 11:58:55 PM
My experience with digital is that reception is much, much, much worse now.

Mine is seasonal, especially with my downstairs TV.  There is a bush outside the window that affects it somewhat during the Summer months, plus I'll be putting an a/c unit in there once we get out of this February in May bs we've been experiencing, so the antenna will be on a slightly different trajectory.  Most of my market is doing the digital repack in August, and an ION television station is relocating its transmitter to the same site as where 4 other stations have theirs (NBC, FOX, CW, and PBS).  In the meantime, it seems like the existing towers at that site except for NBC have been operating on reduced power lately because reception has been more black screen than viewable despite being less than 10 miles away.  Meanwhile, CBS (15 miles north), and the ABC and MYNetwork signals (both 15 miles south) have been solid except when the wind is howling.  I use the RCA amplified flat digital antenna.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 14, 2019, 11:45:19 PM
My area did not get cable until late 1983 because my street had underground wiring.  Until then, we had a rooftop antenna.  My house was about 15 miles southwest of Hartford, CT, and we were able to get all Hartford/New Haven affiliates, WWLP and WGGB from Springfield, MA, and rimshot reception of WNEW (now WNYW) out of NYC, and maybe a couple of other NYC affiliates.  Once we got cable, we got all Hartford/New Haven, Springfield, and NYC affiliates, along with Channel 38 out of Boston (the system used to carry WLVI Channel 56, but dropped it before we got it).   I do remember having to use a little switch box with a turn knob to turn the antenna to a certain position to get a certain station.  The two tv sets upstairs were hooked to it, while there was a little black and white portable set in the kitchen downstairs with rabbit ears that got most of the Hartford/New Haven affiliates (I'm right in between the two cities, so while my street was in a rural area with hills all around, reception was pretty strong.

I first had cable in New Britain, CT as early as 1981. It was United Cable then. We had WSBK, WWOR and WPIX. We may also have had WNEW (now WNYW-TV) for a time. The modern day Comcast system only carries WGBY-TV (PBS) channel 57 of Springfield, MA for any out-of-market stations. SYNDEX, which took effect in 1990, killed off WSBK and WPIX. WWOR would eventually feed their own EMI Service. WPIX was dropped on July 1, 1990, replaced with in-market channel 26 of New London (our ION affiliate now).

In southern Hartford County, I was good with Rattlesnake Mountain, about 4.5 miles to my northwest. However, I always had problems with Avon Mountain to the north-northwest. CBS 3 was rough with some ghosting. Channel 18 and the old channel 24 (PBS)? Forget it! I could never watch either one of them. I had to watch a snowy color signal from WEDN-TV channel 53 of Norwich for PBS. Many times, I would get WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 of New Haven in better than channel 3. Their transmitter was/is on Madmere Mountain in Hamden, to my south-southwest. As for Springfield, MA? I could never get a reliable signal from any of their 3 UHF channels (22, 40 and 57).

I never lived in a rural area unless Copperas Cove, Texas, in the early 1970s counts (it certainly does to my New York City relatives!), and I don't remember it anyway because we moved when I was one year old.

But I do use antennas on our bedroom TVs (master bedroom and guestroom). The main difference I notice between antennas now and back in the '70s and '80s is the difference in what happens with interference or a poor signal. Back then you could often still watch. You'd get some snow on the screen and maybe the sound would get a little staticky, but for the most part you could watch. Nowadays you can't. The picture and sound will freeze up, pixellate, get all blocky, and generally become unwatchable.

I just replaced the rabbit ears in our master bedroom because my wife wanted something smaller and because our CBS affiliate didn't come through reliably. Based on the online reviews, I got a Mohu Beam antenna at Best Buy. It's amplified, rated for 50 miles, and it's allegedly omnidirectional so you can position it however you like. The latter part doesn't seem to be true because reception improved substantially when I rotated it so the long side faces towards the District of Columbia. But in terms of the 50-mile reception, that part seems accurate. It doesn't have the issues with the CBS affiliate except in torrential rain, and it pulls in a number of channels the rabbit ears didn't get, including WMAR-2 out of Baltimore and its four subchannels. (Bear in mind this is an indoor antenna.) I'm going to get another for the guestroom TV because the rabbit ears don't work as well in there due to where they have to be positioned. Haven't decided whether to install them on the other TVs as well. The antennas pull in the PBS subchannels, most notably WETA UK. My wife loves British comedies and the like, but she can stream a lot of that via Acorn TV so I haven't decided whether more antennas are needed.

This likely isn't an issue in a rural area, but it's worth knowing that HOAs and the like cannot legally prohibit anyone from putting up an outdoor antenna. They can regulate where it goes (say, directing it go on the back of the house for less visual impact on neighbors), though if the homeowner can then demonstrate inadequate reception they have to let him relocate it. In theory an outdoor antenna might make more sense than having three or four indoor antennas, but I don't want to be bothered putting one up and hiring an electrician to run wires and the like. To do it right, you need to use a motorized mount with a control box to let you rotate the antenna for different stations, and I don't see much reason for us to do that because the stations we watch come in fine on the indoor antenna except if the weather is exceptionally bad. My parents had that kind of setup prior to cable TV arriving in their neighborhood in 1986, but they took down the antenna years ago and I don't know whether they still have the control box. My father had it marked to show where to point it for all the different stations back then.   

Mohu's website has a feature where you punch in your location and it recommends an antenna.

Before it was called cable it was CATV, community antenna TV, which was just an antenna on top of a hill with ribbon wire connecting the homes.  The guy that owned this where I grew up was a certified crook.  Vastly over-charged and provided no service.  Later, after the BUD (big ugly dish) was invented he had to use modern coax, but still provided the absolute minimum service.  Cross channel interference, ghosting, snow.  The minimum. 

We provide the minimum has always been the cable mantra, big company or small.  The minimum.

The coming of the affordable BUD, and later the modern DBS dishes, was a godsend to rural America.   

I had forgotten this until you mentioned "CATV." Back when cable came to my parents' neighborhood, the people running the cable had to put down pavement markings as well as marking any lawns that had in-ground sprinkler systems. The pavement markings all said "CATV."

It's not unusual for condo and apartment buildings to have a community antenna on top of the building. Those sorts of places can restrict installation of satellite dishes and outdoor antennas.

Good antenna + good location = Good reception.

If both of these factors were good, you were good to go!  Lose one and that was all she wrote back in the day.

Now y'all know why the monster satellite dishes sprang up so much in the Eighties...

Rick

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2019, 09:22:30 AM
Those sorts of places can restrict installation of satellite dishes and outdoor antennas.

A person has a virtually absolute right to install an antenna or dish, or both, in any place they own.  You see old deeds and HOA rules, especially in Florida, that purport to restrict TV antennas, but these are void per the FCC.  For example the deeds at The Villages have such a restriction, but it is unenforceable.   

As to condos and apartments and the like, a person can do anything they want on the space they control.  For example, if your balcony happens to face the right direction, you can put up a dish on a tripod and there is nothing the landlord or condo association can do about it.  They can, however, restrict what you do on the common spaces, such as the roof or exterior walls. 

There was an article circulating a few months back which claimed that most younger people believed that a TV antenna had to be some kind of illegal device because there is no way you could get free TV.

A family member got an apartment in the '90s that had its own cable system - which was even worse than the usual cable system that our area had. They were told that if they wanted cable, they had to use this lousy system. But I know there's a federal regulation that says apartment owners have to let residents use the same cable system that the rest of the area has (if they choose to do so).

Also, federal rules say that if you live in an apartment, you can get cable TV or Internet without asking the landlord first. But when I got cable Internet in 2015, the installer from the cable company insisted on calling the landlord first, but only got his voicemail. Still, the installer installed it, and the landlord never said anything to me about it.

Quote from: SP Cook on May 15, 2019, 09:55:39 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2019, 09:22:30 AM
Those sorts of places can restrict installation of satellite dishes and outdoor antennas.

A person has a virtually absolute right to install an antenna or dish, or both, in any place they own.  You see old deeds and HOA rules, especially in Florida, that purport to restrict TV antennas, but these are void per the FCC.  For example the deeds at The Villages have such a restriction, but it is unenforceable.   

....

You're mostly correct, but the FCC regulation does permit the HOA or similar entity to designate certain preferred locations that you have to try first. You can't necessarily just go and put the antenna on a pole in your front yard right off the bat, for example.

My neighborhood's covenants once upon a time purported to prohibit exterior antennas, but they changed that when some of us pointed out that FCC rules invalidate that sort of restriction. The current rule says the antenna should go on the back of the house away from the street if possible unless you can demonstrate that reception is inadequate. FCC rules allow that sort of thing, and it's better to have that sort of rule than no rule at all because with no rule you'll invariably get some turkey who wants to put up a big ugly thing in his front yard just to annoy everyone else.

One of the tricky issues in an apartment or condo is that while you can put a dish or antenna on your balcony or patio (typically weighted down in a planter or similar) if it doesn't protrude beyond the area within your exclusive control, the building can prohibit you from drilling a hole in the wall or the door to run the cable from the device to your TV. I suppose one way around that is to have the door open a bit to run the cable, but most people I know find that unappealing because it lets in bugs in the summer or cold air in the winter.

In my town growing up, we got decent reception on 3 out of Hartford, CT (CBS), and 22, 40 and 57 out of Springfield (NBC, ABC and PBS).  Later on, FOX 61 out of Hartford (I believe) showed up mostly snowy.

Of course, the antenna on the TV had to be adjusted just right and weather was a factor.

I have also heard that digital has made things worse.  Perhaps that was just a ploy to get people to pay up.

Nowadays, I just stream stuff off the Internet and put up with any buffering (rare now that connections are much better than in years past).

Quote from: Rothman on May 15, 2019, 10:57:56 AM
....

I have also heard that digital has made things worse.  Perhaps that was just a ploy to get people to pay up.

Nowadays, I just stream stuff off the Internet and put up with any buffering (rare now that connections are much better than in years past).

I kind of doubt that first proposition simply because cable and satellite TV have been around, and have been quite prevalent, for far longer than over-the-air digital TV broadcasts have been around.

Regarding streaming, we're planning to head that way to save money. I've had DirecTV since 2001, but their customer service has really infuriated me recently, so I reviewed what channels we watch and then examined various streaming services. We'd save around $80 a month if we switch from DirecTV to Vue. We'd also be able to watch the "cable" channels on the two upstairs TVs in the bedrooms. Right now we can't because they're not connected to DirecTV, the reason being that they charge you a fee to rent another converter box for each additional TV. Vue simply lets you watch on up to five devices at any one time, so the Amazon Fire TV Sticks we have upstairs will allow for streaming Vue (or other content like Acorn, which we already subscribe to) on those TVs. The reason we haven't taken the plunge yet was that we needed to upgrade one TV, which we did earlier this month, and we need to buy a couple of more things like an Amazon devices or an Apple TV to use with the new TV (the built-in apps won't do what we want). I've also been considering a DVR for the antenna, such as an Amazon Fire Recast or a Tablo device, but I'm not sure that's really necessary because we'd mostly use it just for my wife's PBS stuff, and I think most of that is available via Acorn or Passport.

Downside is, we won't be able to watch baseball anymore because MASN can't be streamed unless you subscribe to MLB.tv, and MLB.tv won't let you stream your local team's broadcasts without a bunch of shenanigans like using a VPN or other service (and reports are those can be hit-or-miss because MLB.tv assumes you're using them to circumvent the blackout rules). On the other hand, this baseball season is pretty much already over for the Nats, so I guess we wouldn't be missing much.

For anyone thinking about streaming TV, check out http://suppose.tv. Someone on another forum recommended it to me and it was extremely useful. Essentially what it does is you give it your ZIP Code and tell it what channels you consider "must-haves," then you drag those channels up and down to sort them in order of importance to you. The site then spits out suggestions for TV services that will give you what you wanted at various price points so you can compare your options. Great idea for a website. I think the most important thing when you explore changing TV services is not to look at how many channels you currently get versus how many you'd get from the new provider, but rather to look at what channels you actually watch and how many of those you would still get.

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2019, 11:54:07 AM
For anyone thinking about streaming TV, check out http://suppose.tv. Someone on another forum recommended it to me and it was extremely useful. Essentially what it does is you give it your ZIP Code and tell it what channels you consider "must-haves," then you drag those channels up and down to sort them in order of importance to you. The site then spits out suggestions for TV services that will give you what you wanted at various price points so you can compare your options. Great idea for a website. I think the most important thing when you explore changing TV services is not to look at how many channels you currently get versus how many you'd get from the new provider, but rather to look at what channels you actually watch and how many of those you would still get.

Thanks for passing along that site.  I had essentially done a giant Excel spreadsheet listing my "must have" and "really want" channels and which providers offered them.  What I find really fascinating with this website is that if I move the Weather Channel into my "must have," my lowest priced option goes from $45/month to $110/month.  Crazy that I would have to pay $65 more per month to get the Weather Channel without giving up any other "must have" channels. 

Quote from: bandit957 on May 14, 2019, 11:25:10 PM
Back in the days before cable, did rural areas and small towns have good reception of analog signals? Was the reception snowy at best? Did your area get all the networks, and were they all from the same city? I do remember reading that some areas in eastern Kentucky were among the last places in America to get reliable reception, before a station in Hazard signed on.

My understanding is that my dad's family was one of the first to own a television in my eastern Kentucky county. They lived in one of the highest areas of the county. Depending on which way the antenna was turned, they could get Channel 3 (WAVE) from Louisville, or Channel 3 (WSAZ) from Huntington. I'm not sure how good the reception was. My grandmother never did get cable, and I remember her getting four Lexington stations (ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox) plus at least one KET channel with good clarity.

We lived about a mile away from my grandmother, but at a lower elevation. On our antenna, we could pick up two Lexington stations, Channel 18 (WLEX-NBC) and Channel 27 (WKYT-CBS). When KET started broadcasting on Channel 46, the reception was spotty at best. We never could pick up the ABC affiliate, WBLG (Channel 62). Even after it changed call letters to WTVQ and frequency to Channel 36, we couldn't pick it up.

Cable came in the late 1970s, and even then it only carried the three Lexington major network stations, KET, and WTBS. No CNN. No ESPN. No Channel 57 from Hazard. And no Fox affiliate from Lexington. Those came later. However, the cable system in town did carry those channels.

We've come full-circle. Digital reception in my area is awful. In fact, maps published online for the purpose of determining reception show that the only channels I can get where I live now are those broadcast by the local TV station, WLJC, and its affiliates. We can't even get Hazard or the Lexington stations over the air.

Quote from: SP Cook on May 15, 2019, 09:55:39 AM
As to condos and apartments and the like, a person can do anything they want on the space they control.  For example, if your balcony happens to face the right direction, you can put up a dish on a tripod and there is nothing the landlord or condo association can do about it.  They can, however, restrict what you do on the common spaces, such as the roof or exterior walls. 

I work in cable.  We used to have a field tech who went to work for a satellite provider for a while instead, before he came back through the ever-revolving door in the cable industry.  He grew up in Morocco, he's a huge soccer fan, and he had two different satellite dishes at his apartment to cover the networks he wanted for the games.  One of them he mounted to the railing in front of the apartment, no big deal.  But the other one had to be on the opposite side of the building in order to get reception.  So, without asking permission from the property manager, he actually installed a pole-mounted satellite dish in the grass between the building and the street–poured concrete and everything.  He figured, once it was already set in concrete, what would they do about it?

Where I grew up in southern California, my area had cable TV back to the late 1960s, at least. Problem was we and thousands of other people lived in a valley. The valley ran west-east, but all the TV stations were to the south (San Diego) and northwest (Los Angeles), so over-the-air reception was worthless. That made us a captive market for the local cable company.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:41:44 PM

My understanding is that my dad's family was one of the first to own a television in my eastern Kentucky county. They lived in one of the highest areas of the county. Depending on which way the antenna was turned, they could get Channel 3 (WAVE) from Louisville, or Channel 3 (WSAZ) from Huntington. I'm not sure how good the reception was. My grandmother never did get cable, and I remember her getting four Lexington stations (ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox) plus at least one KET channel with good clarity.

Lexington is one of the "UHF islands".  Back when the FCC allotted TV channels to different towns, Lexington, and 11 other towns, did not get any.  Then they went back and filled these in with all UHF channels.  The oldest TVs did not even get UHF, it requires a different form of antenna, and the signals do not travel well in the mountains.  If they had not created these "UHF Islands" Lexington would never have had TV stations of its own, and the different parts of the market would get TV from Louisville, Huntington, Cincinnati, or even Bristol. 

Today, of course, the channel numbers do not mean anything, when they went to digital, the stations moved to new channels and its is just a computer trick that makes it appear they are on their old numbers.  A lot of the complaints about digital reception can be traced to the fact most stations are now really on UHF, no matter what the number says.

Oddly, I can get all my local stations with a $9 table top antenna, except one, which is the only one that is still on a VHF channel.  I cannot get it without an outdoor large antenna. 

IMHO, for years TV stations have not really cared about their OTA signals, as they get paid if you use a sat or cable, but it is just free if put up an antenna.  But, as this "cord cutting" becomes a thing, many people are going to want the network and local news content to supplement their Netflix and such, and stations will need to look at teaching people how to get things OTA again, like they did back in the 50s and 60s.

Quote from: cabiness42 on May 15, 2019, 12:47:56 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2019, 11:54:07 AM
For anyone thinking about streaming TV, check out http://suppose.tv. Someone on another forum recommended it to me and it was extremely useful. Essentially what it does is you give it your ZIP Code and tell it what channels you consider "must-haves," then you drag those channels up and down to sort them in order of importance to you. The site then spits out suggestions for TV services that will give you what you wanted at various price points so you can compare your options. Great idea for a website. I think the most important thing when you explore changing TV services is not to look at how many channels you currently get versus how many you'd get from the new provider, but rather to look at what channels you actually watch and how many of those you would still get.

Thanks for passing along that site.  I had essentially done a giant Excel spreadsheet listing my "must have" and "really want" channels and which providers offered them.  What I find really fascinating with this website is that if I move the Weather Channel into my "must have," my lowest priced option goes from $45/month to $110/month.  Crazy that I would have to pay $65 more per month to get the Weather Channel without giving up any other "must have" channels. 

You are welcome. I had been trying to do the same exercise you describe in comparing TV options and then someone recommended that website. Much easier!

Another thing I find myself realizing is that DVR capability may not be especially vital because a lot of stuff is available on-demand these days, but I'm not totally convinced because I haven't yet found good on-demand sources for some of the sports I watch (mainly Formula One, unless I were to subscribe to their own streaming platform). But some of the so-called "cable replacement services" have cloud-based DVR service included in the price. It's not a real DVR because they're not going to store, say, 12,000 copies of the program if 12,000 subscribers want to save it. Instead they'll just keep the on-demand program around for some length of time. That's one thing that's going to be an adjustment for my wife: She sometimes uses the DVR as a storage unit for shows she wants to save indefinitely. Not a great option for cloud-based programming. I have not yet figured out an easy way to burn a streaming program to a DVD using my DVD recorder/VCR combination box, but I also haven't thought a whole lot about it.

We're leaning towards Vue in large part because we generally liked the interface better than Sling and the package options are a lot easier to decipher. The Vue program guide was a little weird, though–it uses a vertical arrangement instead of the more-conventional horizontal setup. That's relatively minor, though. The bigger issue was that when we watched hockey via Sling, the picture felt a bit choppy, for lack of a better word; my wife said it felt "mechanical" because when the puck was passed over a longer distance and the camera panned quickly, it felt like the broadcast couldn't keep up. I noticed during a British soccer game, I think a Spurs game, that the Sling picture was grainy enough that it was hard to see jersey numbers.

I wouldn't consider most of Connecticut to be rural, so I was surprised to see my fellow Nutmeggers in this thread.

I came here because I was wondering what portion of the population was able to see the moon landing or events surrounding JFK's assassination on TV.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 15, 2019, 01:41:44 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on May 14, 2019, 11:25:10 PM
Back in the days before cable, did rural areas and small towns have good reception of analog signals? Was the reception snowy at best? Did your area get all the networks, and were they all from the same city? I do remember reading that some areas in eastern Kentucky were among the last places in America to get reliable reception, before a station in Hazard signed on.

My understanding is that my dad's family was one of the first to own a television in my eastern Kentucky county. They lived in one of the highest areas of the county. Depending on which way the antenna was turned, they could get Channel 3 (WAVE) from Louisville, or Channel 3 (WSAZ) from Huntington. I'm not sure how good the reception was. My grandmother never did get cable, and I remember her getting four Lexington stations (ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox) plus at least one KET channel with good clarity.

We lived about a mile away from my grandmother, but at a lower elevation. On our antenna, we could pick up two Lexington stations, Channel 18 (WLEX-NBC) and Channel 27 (WKYT-CBS). When KET started broadcasting on Channel 46, the reception was spotty at best. We never could pick up the ABC affiliate, WBLG (Channel 62). Even after it changed call letters to WTVQ and frequency to Channel 36, we couldn't pick it up.

Cable came in the late 1970s, and even then it only carried the three Lexington major network stations, KET, and WTBS. No CNN. No ESPN. No Channel 57 from Hazard. And no Fox affiliate from Lexington. Those came later. However, the cable system in town did carry those channels.

We've come full-circle. Digital reception in my area is awful. In fact, maps published online for the purpose of determining reception show that the only channels I can get where I live now are those broadcast by the local TV station, WLJC, and its affiliates. We can't even get Hazard or the Lexington stations over the air.

I was always amazed by how many channels my grandparents got in Floyd County without cable.

In the Charleston area, we'd get 6 channels on our OTA rabbit ears. NBC (2), ABC (4), CBS (5), PBS (7), Fox (24), UPN/My (36). Depending on where you lived, you could get a couple of LPTVs or an extra PBS on Channel 16 (from Beaufort, about 50 miles SW).

On rabbit ears, I'd get Savannah, Columbia, Jacksonville, Florence/Myrtle Beach, and even Orlando stations on warm summer nights. That was also the way with the Walkman having analog TV. Channel 6 (also 87.7) was interesting. I'd hear Orlando (CBS), Augusta (ABC), or Wilmington, NC (NBC) depending on the day during the summer.

Now I can't even get PBS because their signal is the weakest of all the digital channels.

Rural areas of Williamsburg and Georgetown counties are in the Charleston market because they had good OTA reception of Charleston stations from way back (in the 60s and 70s).

Even in smaller urban areas you didn't pick up much.  In Grand Rapids in the early 60's we had the choice of channels 3 (CBS, Kalamazoo) and 8 (NBC, GR).  Those local channels did have a fairly good signal.  In fact, the towers for the two are within 5 or 10 miles of each other in Barry County, or at least they were when I lived there.  Once in a while we'd pick up a fuzzy signal out of Wisconsin, maybe Green Bay.

Channel 13 (ABC, Grand Rapids) started in late 1962.  We didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PMWe didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Commercial stations airing Sesame Street was rather common in areas that didn't yet have their own PBS station.  In Indianapolis, it aired on WLWI/13, the ABC affiliate (now WTHR, the NBC station) from 1969 until WFYI/20 went on the air a year later.  Those at the far south end of the market could get PBS on WTIU/30 in Bloomington beginning in March 1969, but its signal didn't normally make it to most of Indy.

We were able to get a couple of PBS stations back then, so we could watch the antics of Big Bird, Oscar the Grouch, Cookie Monster, Bert and Ernie, and the rest of the 'Sesame Street' kick-ass crew on those stations. But Channel 54 came in better than Channel 48 back then, since I lived in Highland Heights.

Now in Bellevue with digital TV, I can't get Channel 54 at all.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 15, 2019, 07:22:31 PM

Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PMWe didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Commercial stations airing Sesame Street was rather common in areas that didn't yet have their own PBS station.  In Indianapolis, it aired on WLWI/13, the ABC affiliate (now WTHR, the NBC station) from 1969 until WFYI/20 went on the air a year later.  Those at the far south end of the market could get PBS on WTIU/30 in Bloomington beginning in March 1969, but its signal didn't normally make it to most of Indy.

This is a great post. I had no idea that was the case, but we had all the network TV we wanted; including access to 2 PBS stations from our hill in Ellington, CT.

Quote from: bandit957 on May 14, 2019, 11:25:10 PM
Over the years, I've read countless articles about over-the-air broadcasting, but this is something I've never read much about.

Back in the days before cable, did rural areas and small towns have good reception of analog signals? Was the reception snowy at best? Did your area get all the networks, and were they all from the same city? I do remember reading that some areas in eastern Kentucky were among the last places in America to get reliable reception, before a station in Hazard signed on.

I was around before cable was popular, but I lived in an urban area near Cincinnati, so we could get maybe 5 to 7 stations pretty clearly. But when the Cincinnati affiliates preempted network shows (as they often did), we had to watch the Dayton stations, which were very snowy. I had to do this well into the 2000s, because by that time, I didn't have cable anymore, and our cable system didn't have Dayton channels anyway.

My experience was that cable got to rural areas *FIRST*. KTXL Channel 40 in Sacramento (which eventually became a Fox affiliate) would give local weather for much of the intermountain west because of the cable viewing area.

Quote from: jon daly on May 15, 2019, 07:36:41 PM

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 15, 2019, 07:22:31 PM

Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PMWe didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Commercial stations airing Sesame Street was rather common in areas that didn't yet have their own PBS station.  In Indianapolis, it aired on WLWI/13, the ABC affiliate (now WTHR, the NBC station) from 1969 until WFYI/20 went on the air a year later.  Those at the far south end of the market could get PBS on WTIU/30 in Bloomington beginning in March 1969, but its signal didn't normally make it to most of Indy.

This is a great post. I had no idea that was the case, but we had all the network TV we wanted; including access to 2 PBS stations from our hill in Ellington, CT.

There are a few TV markets that still don't have their own PBS station:

Bakersfield CA:  IIRC, there's a translator for a station from either Fresno or LA.

Rockford/Freeport IL:  They get PBS from Chicago and/or Madison on cable.  Northern Illinois University in DeKalb had an allocation for Channel 33 back in the analog days, but AFAIK, it was never applied for, and no longer exists.

Terre Haute IN:  Indiana State University had a CP for WISU-TV Channel 26 between about 1966 and 1980, but they never built it.  They get PBS from Vincennes.

Lafayette IN:  Purdue University was a pioneer in both mechanical and electronic TV in the 1930s, but never put their own PBS station on the air.  I believe they get WFYI from Indianapolis, and possibly WILL from Champaign/Urbana.

Yuma AZ/El Centro CA:  I believe there are translators for KAET Phoenix on the Arizona side, and KPBS San Diego on the California side.

We were usually, but not always, able to watch two PBS stations in the old days, WETA-26 (the DC affiliate) and WMPT-22 ("MPT"  stands for "Maryland Public Television" ). Both come over the satellite and nowadays with an antenna we easily get both plus something like three subchannels for each of them, most notably (as I noted in a prior post) WETA UK on Channel 26-2.

Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement. 

Quote from: ce929wax on May 16, 2019, 12:09:47 AM
Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement.

1.  There's no such thing as a "digital antenna."  Antennas are antennas.  They pick up RF, and they have to be built properly.  Now, some will work better than others, but that was also true back in the analog days.  For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless, but they were next to useless for analog unless one was within 25 miles or so of the TV stations.

2.  Get your antenna up and in the clear.  This was necessary for analog, and even more so for digital.  To work properly, a TV antenna must be above the ground, the higher the better.

Antennas have to be bigger and more directive only because the ATSC 1.0 system is so screwed up.  It doesn't compensate for multipath, and somehow the FCC convinced station managements that lower power would be better.  Power can be cut in half for the same coverage that the analog transmitters had, but no more than that. 

I could imagine those living near the IL/WI border getting both Chicago and Milwaukee stations, although the Chicago stations would have far better coverage than the Milwaukee ones.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 16, 2019, 01:04:01 AM
.... For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless ....

.... 

I disagree with this as an absolute statement. If it were qualified to say "in many places" they're next to useless, I couldn't disagree with that, but for the past nine years a $15 pair of RCA rabbit ears with a loop has worked extremely well for us in the master bedroom. I noted earlier that it didn't do too well with the local CBS affiliate, but of the four major networks that's the one we watch the least anyway, especially on that particular TV. Given the TV's location, the program we watch the most is the 11:00 news each night, and we prefer the local NBC affiliate for that. The rabbit ears worked great for that station (and for the FOX affiliate, which carries the 10:00 news if we turn in early). But then, we're about 12—13 miles (straight-line distance) from where those stations originate in suburban Maryland.

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2019, 03:08:08 PMWe're leaning towards Vue in large part because we generally liked the interface better than Sling and the package options are a lot easier to decipher. The Vue program guide was a little weird, though–it uses a vertical arrangement instead of the more-conventional horizontal setup. That's relatively minor, though. The bigger issue was that when we watched hockey via Sling, the picture felt a bit choppy, for lack of a better word; my wife said it felt "mechanical" because when the puck was passed over a longer distance and the camera panned quickly, it felt like the broadcast couldn't keep up. I noticed during a British soccer game, I think a Spurs game, that the Sling picture was grainy enough that it was hard to see jersey numbers.

We dropped DBS satellite for Vue over a year ago.  A neighbor's trees had grown to the point that we couldn't see the birds with HDTV signals any more, and our CATV strength is just barely sufficient to support a reliable internet connection so I couldn't risk losing decent internet (I telecommute) by having them split the signal.

Picture quality is great if you have a decent internet connection.  The biggest downside to Vue is that there are questions about the service's longevity.  We went with Vue because the "DVR" functionality was closest to what my wife was used to / wanted.

I do not look forward to what might happen if Sony gives up on Vue.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 16, 2019, 11:43:56 AM
....  The biggest downside to Vue is that there are questions about the service's longevity.  We went with Vue because the "DVR" functionality was closest to what my wife was used to / wanted.

I do not look forward to what might happen if Sony gives up on Vue.

To some degree, I feel that's true of almost any of the streaming services. I guess that's where the website I recommended earlier comes in to help find other options. We intend to leave our DirecTV dish in place in case we want or need to go back in the future, although I'm also concerned about a tree next door. I already moved the dish up to a higher roof level because the tree had gotten bigger, but there's nowhere higher left to go. The tenant there is moving out next week and I may suggest to his successor that she needs to trim the tree because it's too close to the house anyway (I've seen squirrels jumping from one of the branches to the roof over there; while I like squirrels, I don't like seeing them on the roofs).

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 16, 2019, 01:04:01 AM

Quote from: ce929wax on May 16, 2019, 12:09:47 AM
Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement.

1.  There's no such thing as a "digital antenna."  Antennas are antennas.  They pick up RF, and they have to be built properly.  Now, some will work better than others, but that was also true back in the analog days.  For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless, but they were next to useless for analog unless one was within 25 miles or so of the TV stations.

2.  Get your antenna up and in the clear.  This was necessary for analog, and even more so for digital.  To work properly, a TV antenna must be above the ground, the higher the better.

Antennas have to be bigger and more directive only because the ATSC 1.0 system is so screwed up.  It doesn't compensate for multipath, and somehow the FCC convinced station managements that lower power would be better.  Power can be cut in half for the same coverage that the analog transmitters had, but no more than that.

He is exactly right.  When television stations were mandated to go digital, that cut the bandwidth down for the signal (which is why you have multiple channels with most digital signals), but also reduced the power.  You do not have the range that you once had.

When I was growing up, we were near Evansville, IN (30 miles away).  We were up on a hill with a tower, rotor, and a real bad-ass antenna.  I could easily pull in Terre Haute (75 miles) clear, half of the Louisville, KY stations (100 miles), and on good days watch Indianapolis and Bloomington (140 and 110 miles respectively).  I miss some of those days, especially the fact that there were quite a few less commercials.

Quote from: Life in Paradise on May 16, 2019, 12:20:49 PM
When television stations were mandated to go digital, that cut the bandwidth down for the signal

FYI, some of that bandwidth was later reallocated to internet service leading up to the launch of DOCSIS 3.1.  This can actually cause internet service interruption, as it did at my house.  Back before things went all-digital, the way our ISP trapped out video service for internet-only customers (or phone-only or a combination of the two) was to install a signal filter at either the tap or the point of demarcation.  That device would trap out all frequencies allocated to video services.  Back when we first dropped video service from our account, a tech installed such a trap at the pole out back of the house.  Fast-forward several years, and I got a modem with 24 downstream channels.  Unbeknownst to me, four of those channels (specifically the ones between 357 and 435 MHz) were being trapped because they used to be for video signal but are now for internet signal.  Customers with 32-channel modems ended up with 12 of those channels trapped out.  The issue there is that data packets were being sent from the head-end on those channel frequencies but not being received by the modem, resulting in a loss of connectivity.  Our internet connection kept going in and out, even with a brand-new line and a brand-new modem.  Having someone remove the trap from the pole got rid of that problem.  (Fixing service issues is easier and cheaper when you work for the cable company.)

When I was growing up (like, late 90s and early 2000s), my family (as in, aunt, uncle, etc., not where I lived) in rural Trout Lake, WA used an antenna for TV. I think they only got two channels, CBS (KOIN) and I think ABC (KATU). They switched to Dish sometime in the mid 2000s, I believe the translators were all shut off. Wikipedia specifically says that KOIN discontinued their translator in Trout Lake, and I can't find anything about any other stations. This was well before the switch to digital.

Cable is still not an option there, and internet is all CenturyLink DSL, not very good for streaming (though it works if not too many people are using it at once). Pretty much everyone there has Dish or DirecTV. Even cell service is limited, with US Cellular being the only provider with 4G LTE. AT&T has 3G HSPA which works pretty well (fast enough for video streaming, etc.). The other providers either have no service at all, or roaming on one of the other two.

Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Even in smaller urban areas you didn't pick up much.  In Grand Rapids in the early 60's we had the choice of channels 3 (CBS, Kalamazoo) and 8 (NBC, GR).  Those local channels did have a fairly good signal.  In fact, the towers for the two are within 5 or 10 miles of each other in Barry County, or at least they were when I lived there.  Once in a while we'd pick up a fuzzy signal out of Wisconsin, maybe Green Bay.

Channel 13 (ABC, Grand Rapids) started in late 1962.  We didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Yes, this. I too lived in the Grand Rapids area (Georgetown Township in Ottawa County) in the 1970's and I watched Sesame Street, Mister Rogers Neighborhood, The Electric Company, and Zoom on a daily basis in the early 1970's (I didn't start school until 1974). I really want to say I watched those shows in the mornings on a UHF station because I distinctly remember having to tune the bottom knob on our new fangled Toshiba color TV after turning the top knob to U in order to watch them. The channel number completely escapes me however.

I didn't live in an area that had its own PBS station until 1979 when I moved to the NW suburbs of Chicago (WTTW Channel 11) and by then I was too old I had graduated to shows like Speed Racer and Ultra Man by then, lol.

Fun fact. One of WOOD Channel 8's meteorologists Ellen Baca worked here in New Bern on WCTI Channel 12 before going back home to Michigan to be on 8.

In Medford, New York, it was usually CBS (2), NBC (4), WNEW (5), ABC (7, and 8), WOR, later WWOR (9, first in NYC then Secaucus), WPIX (11), and the following PBS affiliates; WNET (13), WLIW (21). Occasionally, we'd also get stations on the New Jersey Network. There were also some low-powered UHF stations like WSNL-TV (67).


I personally used to get more TV signals than the rest of my family from outside of the New York Tri-State area, and it was hooked up to the same antenna.

UPDATE; August 18, 2019: I don't know why I said Newark, when WOR moved to Secaucus.

Did you ever receive channel 43 and 49 from Bridgeport, CT or channel 20 from Waterbury?

Quote from: bandit957 on May 14, 2019, 11:25:10 PM
Over the years, I've read countless articles about over-the-air broadcasting, but this is something I've never read much about.

Back in the days before cable, did rural areas and small towns have good reception of analog signals? Was the reception snowy at best? Did your area get all the networks, and were they all from the same city? I do remember reading that some areas in eastern Kentucky were among the last places in America to get reliable reception, before a station in Hazard signed on.

I was around before cable was popular, but I lived in an urban area near Cincinnati, so we could get maybe 5 to 7 stations pretty clearly. But when the Cincinnati affiliates preempted network shows (as they often did), we had to watch the Dayton stations, which were very snowy. I had to do this well into the 2000s, because by that time, I didn't have cable anymore, and our cable system didn't have Dayton channels anyway.

With a rooftop antenna in "rural" Sacramento county, my grandparents were able to get pretty much a full set of the VHF channels in 1967. TV Guides and newspaper TV listings in our area often had to distinguish VHF channels of the same number from various cities (channels 3 and 7 were duplicated by channels to our north within the "maybe" distance and certainly within the circulation distance of the newspapers as well as 4 in Reno which duplicated San Francisco and 8 which was duplicated in Salinas and Reno).

At a mountain cabin near Lake Tahoe at which my family stayed in 1968, without cable, we were only reliably able to get one station, KOLO 8 from Reno. I don't know, if 4 wasn't broadcasting at the time or just didn't have sufficient signal or the right kind of tower to be received where we were.

Quote from: Life in Paradise on May 16, 2019, 12:20:49 PM

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on May 16, 2019, 01:04:01 AM

Quote from: ce929wax on May 16, 2019, 12:09:47 AM
Keith:  I have a digital antenna in a basement.

1.  There's no such thing as a "digital antenna."  Antennas are antennas.  They pick up RF, and they have to be built properly.  Now, some will work better than others, but that was also true back in the analog days.  For example, rabbit ears and UHF loops are next to useless, but they were next to useless for analog unless one was within 25 miles or so of the TV stations.

2.  Get your antenna up and in the clear.  This was necessary for analog, and even more so for digital.  To work properly, a TV antenna must be above the ground, the higher the better.

Antennas have to be bigger and more directive only because the ATSC 1.0 system is so screwed up.  It doesn't compensate for multipath, and somehow the FCC convinced station managements that lower power would be better.  Power can be cut in half for the same coverage that the analog transmitters had, but no more than that.

He is exactly right.  When television stations were mandated to go digital, that cut the bandwidth down for the signal (which is why you have multiple channels with most digital signals), but also reduced the power.  You do not have the range that you once had.

When I was growing up, we were near Evansville, IN (30 miles away).  We were up on a hill with a tower, rotor, and a real bad-ass antenna.  I could easily pull in Terre Haute (75 miles) clear, half of the Louisville, KY stations (100 miles), and on good days watch Indianapolis and Bloomington (140 and 110 miles respectively).  I miss some of those days, especially the fact that there were quite a few less commercials.

I grew up between TH and Evansville, and local stations were clear, and we could also pull in stations from about 100 miles away, often snowy, from Indianapolis, Lafayette, Bloomington, Evansville, Champaign, Olney and Decatur.

Quote from: slorydn1 on May 17, 2019, 05:28:44 AM

Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2019, 06:39:57 PM
Even in smaller urban areas you didn't pick up much.  In Grand Rapids in the early 60's we had the choice of channels 3 (CBS, Kalamazoo) and 8 (NBC, GR).  Those local channels did have a fairly good signal.  In fact, the towers for the two are within 5 or 10 miles of each other in Barry County, or at least they were when I lived there.  Once in a while we'd pick up a fuzzy signal out of Wisconsin, maybe Green Bay.

Channel 13 (ABC, Grand Rapids) started in late 1962.  We didn't get PBS until much later - I looked it up, 1983.  But I recall seeing Sesame Street before that; maybe one of the other stations franchised it somehow.

Yes, this. I too lived in the Grand Rapids area (Georgetown Township in Ottawa County) in the 1970's and I watched Sesame Street, Mister Rogers Neighborhood, The Electric Company, and Zoom on a daily basis in the early 1970's (I didn't start school until 1974). I really want to say I watched those shows in the mornings on a UHF station because I distinctly remember having to tune the bottom knob on our new fangled Toshiba color TV after turning the top knob to U in order to watch them. The channel number completely escapes me however.

I didn't live in an area that had its own PBS station until 1979 when I moved to the NW suburbs of Chicago (WTTW Channel 11) and by then I was too old I had graduated to shows like Speed Racer and Ultra Man by then, lol.

Fun fact. One of WOOD Channel 8's meteorologists Ellen Baca worked here in New Bern on WCTI Channel 12 before going back home to Michigan to be on 8.

According to Wikipedia, WGVU signed on in 1972 (as WGVC) on channel 35.

Back on topic, my great-grandma had an old external antenna on her rooftop that had a broken rotor (however, it was facing the direction of all the locals). From near Onekama, MI, she was able to get the following:
WPBN (7, NBC)
WWTV (9, CBS)
WCMW (21, PBS)
WCMV (27, PBS)
WGTU (29, ABC)
WGKI/WFQX (33, FOX) - this was the station it was aimed toward as my family used to go to her house every Sunday after church and they had the Lions on, but they were flea power at the time (around the time of WGKI becoming WFQX, they upped analog power dramatically)

I also remember getting several other stations:
ABC on Channel 3 airing the Indy 500 (either KTBS or KATC)
WDIV (4, NBC) [Detroit]
W22BW (22, NBC) [Sturgeon Bay WI, off the back]
WGBA (26, NBC) [Green Bay WI, off the back]
WPNE (38, PBS) [Green Bay WI, off the back]

I also remember watching part of a football game on KCNC, but I'm not sure whether it was E-skip or via one of the Denver Six being unscrambled by accident.

Also in the analog days, audio from WITI (Milwaukee) would show up occasionally on 87.7 on radios.

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on May 17, 2019, 08:56:26 AM
Did you ever receive channel 43 and 49 from Bridgeport, CT or channel 20 from Waterbury?

20 I remember. I knew there were PBS stations in Bridgeport. In fact I discovered Barney the Dinosaur being broadcasted from there in the place of those 15 minute educational shorts that some of those stations used to run. For years after that I thought Barney started out in Bridgeport. WTXX Channel 20 used to have these morning kids show character host puppet named "TX" with a female human counterpart who I thought was kind of cute. I also discovered they were showing "The World of Henry Orient" one night, and it became one of my favorite 1960's movies.

I remember a few local stations had a "kids' club" that accompanied cartoons and such. The "kids' club" had live grownup hosts (not cartoons). I remember one on Channel 64 that had a woman who always chewed bubble gum (but she didn't bubble).

Quote from: bandit957 on May 19, 2019, 07:33:10 PM
I remember a few local stations had a "kids' club" that accompanied cartoons and such. The "kids' club" had live grownup hosts (not cartoons). I remember one on Channel 64 that had a woman who always chewed bubble gum (but she didn't bubble).

A lot of local stations had things like that until around 1973, when groups like Action for Children's Television got them to stop. Then it creeped back during the 1980's and headed for bigger markets again, and the next thing you know, we have Mario Cantone hosting Steampipe Alley on WWOR (9), and WNYW (5) with "The D.J. Kat Show."

Quote from: D-Dey65 on May 19, 2019, 07:27:59 PM

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on May 17, 2019, 08:56:26 AM
Did you ever receive channel 43 and 49 from Bridgeport, CT or channel 20 from Waterbury?

20 I remember. I knew there were PBS stations in Bridgeport. In fact I discovered Barney the Dinosaur being broadcasted from there in the place of those 15 minute educational shorts that some of those stations used to run. For years after that I thought Barney started out in Bridgeport. WTXX Channel 20 used to have these morning kids show character host puppet named "TX" with a female human counterpart who I thought was kind of cute.

J.J. Conlon had TX Critter and space alien Zeke from Voltron. I believe they lasted into the early 1990s. The girl who co-hosted even appeared before a WWE arena (non-televised) show once at the Hartford Civic Center.

Quote from: D-Dey65 on May 19, 2019, 07:37:22 PM

Quote from: bandit957 on May 19, 2019, 07:33:10 PM
I remember a few local stations had a "kids' club" that accompanied cartoons and such. The "kids' club" had live grownup hosts (not cartoons). I remember one on Channel 64 that had a woman who always chewed bubble gum (but she didn't bubble).

A lot of local stations had things like that until around 1973, when groups like Action for Children's Television got them to stop. Then it creeped back during the 1980's and headed for bigger markets again, and the next thing you know, we have Mario Cantone hosting Steampipe Alley on WWOR (9), and WNYW (5) with "The D.J. Kat Show."

I was actually on Captain Delta on KOVR 13 in Stockton-Sacramento twice. The show was on twice a day on Weekdays and in the mornings on weekends. The shows on which I appeared were live (or nearly so, they may have been on a few seconds of delay) and the 5PM news was anchored in the studio just a few meters from where the "Captain's boat" was broadcast. The show featured cartoons interspersed with kid interviews and games on the afternoon show. I would be pretty sure that the morning (until they moved the kid portion to the morning) show and the weekend show had recorded intros to the cartoons. The morning show aired opposite (or at least as a local answer to) Captain Kangaroo which was kid's oriented, but never really featured any kids. As network morning news-entertainment moved ever earlier and the network daytime dramas and syndicated talk shows moved ever later, the need and space for such programs disappeared. A similar show aired on KTVU 2 in the Bay Area under similar circumstances. I believe that it was (often) hosted by the same guy who hosted the afternoon "Dialing for Dollars" movie. If I recall correctly, both KOVR and KTVU also had pre-school programs: Miss Pat's Playroom (Sunday Mornings) and "Miss Nancy's Kindergarten" which aired mornings, respectively.

I do remember DJ Kat on Channel 5.

Here in CT, we had TX Critter, created by the same guy who created ALF.  Found this collection of promos.  The last promo was more from my time with JJ TX and Friends.  I did play TV Pow once (did not win), and was a member of the fan club.  Local legend Dr. Mel was also part of the show and offered some great info on weather forecasting for kids. 

TX Critter's name was a play on Tex Ritter.

Do any of you recall some guy named Marlo with a Magical Mystery Machine? Also, how did this become so Nutmegcentric a thread?

I never knew that the Marlo show was actually taped at WFSB-TV (CBS) channel 3 of Hartford. I just thought it was a syndicated kids show like any other! The robotic voice on that show kinda sounded like future channel 3 anchor/reporter Dan Kain. I think the showed also aired on a few other CBS affiliates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvnHVuDFIt8

I actually remember the video game and them saying "POWW! POWW!", since "PIX! PIX! PIX!" was already taken by WPIX-TV (CW) channel 11 of New York City. :P

Quote from: bandit957 on May 19, 2019, 07:33:10 PM
I remember a few local stations had a "kids' club" that accompanied cartoons and such. The "kids' club" had live grownup hosts (not cartoons). I remember one on Channel 64 that had a woman who always chewed bubble gum (but she didn't bubble).

Was her head shaped like a Speak 'n' Spell?

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on May 20, 2019, 10:56:35 PM
I never knew that the Marlo show was actually taped at WFSB-TV (CBS) channel 3 of Hartford. I just thought it was a syndicated kids show like any other! The robotic voice on that show kinda sounded like future channel 3 anchor/reporter Dan Kain. I think the showed also aired on a few other CBS affiliates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvnHVuDFIt8

I actually remember the video game and them saying "POWW! POWW!", since "PIX! PIX! PIX!" was already taken by WPIX-TV (CW) channel 11 of New York City. :P

I saw that from time to time. There was one guy who was almost 18, and they were talking about the fact that he was on the verge of turning 18 and had to register for the draft.

I heard about Marlo and the Magic Mystery Machine, but I don't remember seeing it myself.

Channel 3 of Hartford once had Bill O'Reilly. We also had Gayle King locally as an anchor from 1981 to 1999. You can guess why WFSB-TV aired The Oprah Winfrey Show for it's entire syndicated run! Ha ha! :D

Analog TV reception was even stranger when I lived in southern Maine. WMTW-TV (ABC) channel 8 was licensed to Poland Spring and not Portland. Their old transmitter was atop Mount Washington, NH, giving the station a monster coverage area. With an indoor antenna, I used to get them with little trouble in Old Orchard Beach, roughly 12 miles down the coast from downtown Portland. Their digital transmitter is now in Baldwin, ME, a few miles from Lake Sebago. WCSH-TV (NBC) channel 6 of Portland was usually good. WGME-TV (CBS) channel 13 of Portland was usually OK, but had issues at times. The real beast was then-new WPXT-TV channel 51 of Portland (IND to FOX to WB and now CW). It seemed like their signal would wave in and out whenever it was real windy. I'd have a similar issue with WMEA-TV (PBS) channel 26 of Biddeford, ME (transmitter was in Sanford, York County). The main market PBS signal was/is WCBB-TV channel 10 of Augusta. Their transmitter was in Litchfield, ME. The signal was always a bit snowy, but usually watchable. I'd also get a weak signal from WENH-TV (PBS) channel 11 of Durham, NH (New Hampshire Public Television).

The cable in Saco and Old Orchard Beach was something like Continental Cablevision. I didn't have them the time I lived in O.O.B. They didn't carry TBS. Until SYNDEX killed them off, they once carried channels 4, 5, 7, 38 and 56 from Boston and Cambridge (56). Not sure about WFXT-TV (FOX) channel 25. Today, they probably only carry NH's channel 11 for out-of-market stations. I know that Spectrum in Portland is that way. They once carried WSBK-TV from Boston, since it was a regional superstation at one time. We even had them on our cable in New Britain and Hartford, CT (both are Comcast today).

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on May 23, 2019, 07:41:33 AM
The cable in Saco and Old Orchard Beach was something like Continental Cablevision. I didn't have them the time I lived in O.O.B. They didn't carry TBS. Until SYNDEX killed them off, they once carried channels 4, 5, 7, 38 and 56 from Boston and Cambridge (56). Not sure about WFXT-TV (FOX) channel 25. Today, they probably only carry NH's channel 11 for out-of-market stations. I know that Spectrum in Portland is that way. They once carried WSBK-TV from Boston, since it was a regional superstation at one time. We even had them on our cable in New Britain and Hartford, CT (both are Comcast today).

Just checked Zap2it and WHDH is still carried in Biddeford, Saco, and Old Orchard Beach (as well as WENH and CKSH). Helps that a good chunk of WHDH's weekday schedule is syndex-proof local news

I remember when I was about 14, I saw the Channel 9 news and the weatherman said something about "the edge of the Channel 9 viewing area." That phrase gave me the creeps. On the weather map, it looked like it was out in Mason County or somewhere.

When I think of the weather on Channel 9 news, I think of this guy.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 24, 2019, 12:29:19 AM
When I think of the weather on Channel 9 news, I think of this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTyyBq99N0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBgBr0rPl-s

Quote from: bing101 on May 24, 2019, 12:34:30 AM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 24, 2019, 12:29:19 AM
When I think of the weather on Channel 9 news, I think of this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTyyBq99N0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBgBr0rPl-s

Hello-o-o-o-o-o-o-o Asbury Park!  :)

I grew up in Niagara Falls ON in the "˜60s and what a variety: all the US networks from Buffalo along with the Canadian networks from Toronto + a couple of independents. And then we moved to Halifax with only CBC and CTV available there. Cable arrived in the early "˜70s and we had US programming again from WAGM in Presque Isle, Maine. This was an interesting station as it was an affiliate of ABC, CBS & NBC and they picked the prime-time programming from all three.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAGM-TV

After a couple of years the US networks from Bangor were added.....then a switch to all the Boston stations. Today with satellite besides Boston.....I also get all the Seattle stations (miss a program....watch it 4 hrs later!)       

Only KXGN-TV channel 5 of Glendive, MT (the smallest DMA in the US) had them beat. That was the last station in the country to carry at least two networks on its primary -1 channel. I think they're only CBS on 5-1 now. They were secondary NBC until recently.

In 2019, WAGM-TV 8-2 is FOX. You still need cable to get NBC and ABC from Bangor, ME.

Quote from: bandit957 on May 23, 2019, 09:57:18 PM
I remember when I was about 14, I saw the Channel 9 news and the weatherman said something about "the edge of the Channel 9 viewing area." That phrase gave me the creeps. On the weather map, it looked like it was out in Mason County or somewhere.

Was Channel 9 the one with Al Schottelkotte (sp?), or Bob Braun, or both? The cable system at Morehead State University carried one of the Cincinnati broadcast stations back when I was in college, and the students from the river counties and others in southern Ohio watched that station from back home religiously. Back then, Kentucky had an arrangement that students from the river counties and a handful of others could pay in-state tuition. We had tons of students from Adams, Brown, Clermont, Scioto and Lawrence counties in Ohio; and there may have been some other counties that were included. I don't think Hamilton County was, but Pike may have been.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 24, 2019, 01:35:50 PM
Was Channel 9 the one with Al Schottelkotte (sp?), or Bob Braun, or both?

Channel 9 had Al Schottelkotte. Channel 5 had Bob Braun.

Quote from: bing101 on May 24, 2019, 12:34:30 AM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 24, 2019, 12:29:19 AM
When I think of the weather on Channel 9 news, I think of this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTyyBq99N0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBgBr0rPl-s

I remember this guy as well.  Early in his career he spent several years in Evansville,IN doing the weather.  He was a character from the start!

Quote from: Life in Paradise on May 25, 2019, 12:35:30 AM

Quote from: bing101 on May 24, 2019, 12:34:30 AM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 24, 2019, 12:29:19 AM
When I think of the weather on Channel 9 news, I think of this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTyyBq99N0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBgBr0rPl-s

I remember this guy as well.  Early in his career he spent several years in Evansville,IN doing the weather.  He was a character from the start!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTN0Qg9WwVw

Lloyd Lindsay Young on KGO-TV San Francisco well he is one of the most known characters in the TV Business.

Quote from: bing101 on May 24, 2019, 12:34:30 AM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on May 24, 2019, 12:29:19 AM
When I think of the weather on Channel 9 news, I think of this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhTyyBq99N0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBgBr0rPl-s

Some people I know thought he was on uppers.

When I hear the words Channel 9, I think of Joe Franklin, old movies, Romper Room, and trash talk show host Richard Bey, even before his show was trash, and he had his female co-host Renee Hamblee (or however you spelled her name).


I know a few friends that were in the audience of an episode of that show.

My great-grandparents lived in the MS Delta area and got great reception of Greenville TV stations. Jackson TV was very spotty.

I think Greenville/Greenwood was just channels 6 and 15? I've never been to Mississippi, so I'm not 100% sure.

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on June 23, 2019, 07:23:54 AM
I think Greenville/Greenwood was just channels 6 and 15? I've never been to Mississippi, so I'm not 100% sure.

Pre-digital, yes. A Fox station was added to WABG as a sub-channel (or whatever term you call it). There was a reality show a few years ago called Breaking Greenville, which was about how both stations' news were competing against each other. There are a couple of notable personalities that went through Greenville: Hoda Kotb of the Today Third Hour worked at WXVT (15) and Jody Baskerville, once of the now-defunct news magazine Hard Copy.

I grew up near Joliet, IL, about 50 or some miles from downtown Chicago, and I remember that we had to have an amplifier on our antenna.  When cable eventually came to our neighborhood, my dad refused to pay for cable, so the antenna stayed.

Quote from: golden eagle on June 24, 2019, 08:25:32 PM

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on June 23, 2019, 07:23:54 AM
I think Greenville/Greenwood was just channels 6 and 15? I've never been to Mississippi, so I'm not 100% sure.

Pre-digital, yes. A Fox station was added to WABG as a sub-channel (or whatever term you call it). There was a reality show a few years ago called Breaking Greenville, which was about how both stations' news were competing against each other. There are a couple of notable personalities that went through Greenville: Hoda Kotb of the Today Third Hour worked at WXVT (15) and Jody Baskerville, once of the now-defunct news magazine Hard Copy.

The Fox subchannel came about with the demise of Foxnet. In fact, the shutdown of Foxnet was delayed two weeks in order for WABG to get their Fox subchannel up and running!

Quote from: ftballfan on July 09, 2019, 07:08:48 PM

Quote from: golden eagle on June 24, 2019, 08:25:32 PM

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on June 23, 2019, 07:23:54 AM
I think Greenville/Greenwood was just channels 6 and 15? I've never been to Mississippi, so I'm not 100% sure.

Pre-digital, yes. A Fox station was added to WABG as a sub-channel (or whatever term you call it). There was a reality show a few years ago called Breaking Greenville, which was about how both stations' news were competing against each other. There are a couple of notable personalities that went through Greenville: Hoda Kotb of the Today Third Hour worked at WXVT (15) and Jody Baskerville, once of the now-defunct news magazine Hard Copy.

The Fox subchannel came about with the demise of Foxnet. In fact, the shutdown of Foxnet was delayed two weeks in order for WABG to get their Fox subchannel up and running!

That is a good use of the subchannel.

And antennas are becoming more important, as DirecTV, the largest provider, is getting into many disputes with local stations over "retransmission" (thanks to Congress, providers have to pay local stations to "retransmit" their signal, even though you can get it free with an antenna).  Currently in a dispute with Nextstar, which owns 150 stations in mid-sized markets, and starting Friday with CBS, which, like the other networks, owns its own affiliates in the big cities. 

DirecTV is working on a thing called "locast".  The retransmission law has an exception for non-profit TV clubs.  Back in the day people in really rural areas where even the worst cable companies would not go would form "TV clubs" which would put up an antenna and wire up the homes, with everyone donating for upkeep.  Locast is set up as a "club" and, if you live in one of the cities it is in (NY, Boston, Philly, DC, Baltimore, Chicago, Houston, DFW, Denver, LA, SF, and, oddly, Rapid City and Sioux Fall, SD) you "donate" $5/month and get a password to watch your local stations on the internet.    They want to eventually roll it out nationwide, which would destroy the monopoly power of local TV stations.

Meredith dropped their stations from Dish Network as well. Including CBS in several major markets (Atlanta, Phoenix, St. Louis and others) and NBC in Nashville.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2019, 10:03:22 AM
They want to eventually roll it out nationwide, which would destroy the monopoly power of local TV stations.

How?  It would still be the same stations, just through an internet connection rather than an antenna.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2019, 10:03:22 AM
And antennas are becoming more important, as DirecTV, the largest provider, is getting into many disputes with local stations over "retransmission" (thanks to Congress, providers have to pay local stations to "retransmit" their signal, even though you can get it free with an antenna).  Currently in a dispute with Nextstar, which owns 150 stations in mid-sized markets, and starting Friday with CBS, which, like the other networks, owns its own affiliates in the big cities.

DirecTV has its moments, like now, but they only have about 1/10 of the retransmission-fee issues that Dish Network has.  Dish has several per year, every year, while DirecTV usually has one per year at most.

Those retransmission fees are what's keeping broadcast television on the air.  The advertiser-based business model failed years ago.  If those fees went away, we'd be back to most markets having 2 to 5 stations on the air (NYC, LA, and Chicago being among the few exceptions).  It'd be deja vu 1970 all over again.

Big Media wants you to think that, but anybody who owns a TV station owns a license to print money and if they do not think they can make it on ad revenue alone (which is what the situation was for the first 40 years of TV) is welcome to sign his FCC permits over to me.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 18, 2019, 12:01:25 AMIf those fees went away, we'd be back to most markets having 2 to 5 stations on the air (NYC, LA, and Chicago being among the few exceptions).  It'd be deja vu 1970 all over again.

That's about what I have anyway. On a good day, I think I can get only 5 stations now.

Quote from: bandit957 on July 18, 2019, 09:03:28 AM

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on July 18, 2019, 12:01:25 AMIf those fees went away, we'd be back to most markets having 2 to 5 stations on the air (NYC, LA, and Chicago being among the few exceptions).  It'd be deja vu 1970 all over again.

That's about what I have anyway. On a good day, I think I can get only 5 stations now.

My brother lives in Owen County and with a small rooftop antenna, he gets tons of stations from the Cincinnati market. Another antenna, mounted on his deck, gets a crapload of them from Louisville.

I can't even get Channel 54 or 64 anymore.

Where I am, it is almost impossible to get anything over the air without an outdoor antenna

@SCTVHOUND: Merideth also owns WFSB-TV (CBS) channel 3 of Hartford. I don't know how much of an impact it's had here, as the last provider I had access to was Frontier.

Quote from: vdeane on July 17, 2019, 08:29:16 PM
How?  It would still be the same stations, just through an internet connection rather than an antenna.

OK here goes.

For the first 40 years or so of TV, local TV was free.  If you lived close enough to town, you just put up an antenna and watched what came in.  If you could not get TV with an antenna, well, that is where the first cable TV, then called CATV, came from.  A businessman put up a better antenna than any one person could afford and sold subscriptions to it.  The local TV stations got nothing, they survived, and in fact thrived.  The Supreme Court, in a case called Fortnightly, affirmed that cable companies could receive and retransmit local TV signals without paying the TV stations.

Then, in the 1990s, Big Media got Congress to change the law.  Now cable companies, and satellite and other types of providers like Play Station and so on, must pay the local TV stations whatever they demand to carry the signals.  And, with knickpicky exceptions, every single place in the USA has ONE AND ONLY ONE local station that "owns" your home for each network (CBS, NBC, etc).  For example I like in a market where Nexstar owns the CBS.  The only way for DirecTV, or any other provider, to provide CBS to me, is to pay whatever Nexstar wants.  Which is why Nexstar stations are currently off DirecTV.   The amount of money paid by you and me customer has gone up ten fold, to nearly $10 BILLION with a B, in just the last 10 years. 

But there are two exceptions to this.

- You still can put up a plain old antenna and pull in whatever you can.  Obviously this only works if you live close enough to the city the TV station is in, but it is something.  But switching between a cable or dish box and the antenna is cumbersome.  The providers are working on this.  In DirecTV's case it is called an "LCC box" which is an add on to the DirecTV box that makes local, antenna received, channels appear in the guide and such just like all the DirecTV channels.  Without payment to the local stations.

- Which leaves rural people, the main point of this discussion.  Well, Congress left a loophole in for non-profits.  So the cable and dish industry are fostering the foundation of locast, an NON-PROFIT website.  When fully rolled out, an antenna in each market will receive all of the local stations and retransmit them to everyone in the market for a donation of $5/month.  The local stations will get no payment and will have to go back to living simply on the windfall profits they make from selling advertising, since they could no longer take TV signals away from people to demand more money.   A rare instance where the consumer is going to win.

In my DirecTV market, only the Lexington stations are provided, and not all of them at that. We get the main NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox and CW affiliates. The three old-line Lexington stations (WLEX, Channel 18, NBC; WKYT, Channel 27, CBS; and WTVQ, Channel 36, ABC) have several subchannels. These are not carried by DirecTV.

We do not get the Hazard CBS affiliate, WYMT, on DirecTV. Dish Network also does not carry it. And they will not unless forced to by the federal government. This is the station that covers many local stories that the Lexington and Huntington stations that penetrate into this area do not.

The Frankfort cable system carries both Lexington and Louisville broadcast stations. Some eastern Kentucky cable systems carry both Lexington and Huntington stations.

My Owen County brother, who lives right smack dab in the middle of Kentucky's Golden Triangle, has Dish Network. Their local stations are from Cincinnati, not Lexington or Louisville.

There's really no rhyme or reason to what the satellite providers deem to be local channel for any given community.

Instead of the stations paying cable and satellite providers to carry them, it should be the other way around. The providers should pay them a fee for the right to retransmit their signals.

In the 1970s we lived in rural areas south of Dover, DE. We used a 30' antennae with a rotator. We could pick up all Philly stations (3, 6,10, 17, 29, & 48) & a couple from Balto (2 & 13). All these channels came in crystal clear no matter the weather. When they finally ran cable to us the picture was good in clear weather but if it even looked like it was going to rain or snow the pic was in & out.
Here in FL we use Dish for tv & internet. When we have heavy rain we loose tv but internet is ok. We get an excellent variety of channels, even stations from LA, Denver, Boston, Chicago & 2 from NYC. If & when they run cable waay out here I think I'd probably stay with Dish.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 20, 2019, 07:10:45 PM

Instead of the stations paying cable and satellite providers to carry them, it should be the other way around. The providers should pay them a fee for the right to retransmit their signals.

As I understand it currently, cable and satellite companies actually do have to pay the local providers for retransmission of their signals.  In turn the cable companies (and satellite) charge us a fee for what they pay broadcast companies.  It kind of burns me up to have to pay for something that is free to me over the air, and I'm close enough to town to use a small antenna next to my TV and switch over to pick up a few channels that aren't packaged onto cable.  One of the negotiating tactics local TV stations sometimes use is to get the cable company to also pull up some of the digital subchannels.  Satellite doesn't have that capability in most cases, but a bunch of the subchannel providers actually have an internet streaming presence.

We've lost one of our local stations for a week now while the station & Dish try to settle on a fair price. This is usually resolved in a couple weeks. Some stations we lose forever then Dish adds another channel to fill the void.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 17, 2019, 10:03:22 AM
DirecTV is working on a thing called "locast".  The retransmission law has an exception for non-profit TV clubs.  Back in the day people in really rural areas where even the worst cable companies would not go would form "TV clubs" which would put up an antenna and wire up the homes, with everyone donating for upkeep.  Locast is set up as a "club" and, if you live in one of the cities it is in (NY, Boston, Philly, DC, Baltimore, Chicago, Houston, DFW, Denver, LA, SF, and, oddly, Rapid City and Sioux Fall, SD) you "donate" $5/month and get a password to watch your local stations on the internet.    They want to eventually roll it out nationwide, which would destroy the monopoly power of local TV stations.

In what should be surprising to no one who follows the TV industry, the makers of Locast are being sued by the broadcast networks (https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/07/abc-cbs-fox-nbc-sue-locast-to-stop-free-online-access-to-broadcast-tv/), probably because the claim of being a non-profit TV club was spurious.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 20, 2019, 02:18:05 PM
[   A rare instance where the consumer is going to win.

What I've heard will happen is the networks will pull NFL football off the air and will move it to a premium NFL streaming and cable channel, just like baseball.  Then the networks/studios will lobby to get the exemption closed.  The consumer never wins.

Quote from: SP Cook on July 20, 2019, 02:18:05 PM
- Which leaves rural people, the main point of this discussion.  Well, Congress left a loophole in for non-profits.  So the cable and dish industry are fostering the foundation of locast, an NON-PROFIT website.  When fully rolled out, an antenna in each market will receive all of the local stations and retransmit them to everyone in the market for a donation of $5/month.

I believe that law was designed for non-profit OTA translator groups, not streaming services like Locast.

QuoteThe local stations will get no payment and will have to go back to living simply on the windfall profits they make from selling advertising, since they could no longer take TV signals away from people to demand more money.   A rare instance where the consumer is going to win.

The advertising-only business model has been unworkable for many many years.  The subscriber fees paid to local broadcasters (who, in turn, pay the networks... unlike decades past where the networks paid their affiliates for time) are what keep them on the air.  Broadcasters today make almost no money from OTA; effectively just a small percentage of their total ad revenue, since 75-85% of their viewership is via cable, satellite, and online, not via their transmitters.  If they had to survive with just advertising, all those bloated news departments, and 6-12 hours of news and feature programming per day would go away.  So would maybe half of the stations currently on the air.  The networks would have to start paying their affiliates again.

For example, CBS has lost about 1/4 of their viewership in those markets where their O&O stations and other affiliates (such as Meredith stations) are blacked out on Dish Network.  That means that they don't get a dime from Dish until they make a new deal.  That includes 18 of the Top 25 media markets.  Meredith owns CBS affiliates in another five.  That has to hurt the bottom line big-time.  That's close to 1/16 of the country's population (assuming that's Dish's market share; it has to be close) that doesn't receive CBS unless people make arrangements elsewhere.  And they are.  Dish is bleeding subscriber cancellations.

If the FCC would let them, I believe most would just turn off those expensive, high-maintenance transmitters, lease the tower space to other services, and use cable, satellite (which will be dying in another decade), and streaming as their "transmitters."  Fortunately, the FCC and Congress won't let them.  The reason is that too many rural areas are not wired for high-speed internet or cable, or may have fiber connections, but not at a data rate that will allow multiple video streams.  It took over 60 years after the invention of dial telephone service in around 1910, and its almost immediate use in urban areas (beginning in 1915), before it was universal in the Continental US.  Nationwide high speed internet could take close to that long, and it's only been available to the general public for about 20 years now.  Despite the comparative few viewers that use OTA, broadcast TV will be around for some time to come, even though they are money-losers for the broadcasters.

In fact, I think Canada is making a big mistake in turning off their OTA transmitters in rural areas.  What happens when their satellites start dying?  This is what AT&T/DirecTV is predicting will happen with their birds after another 10 years or so.  They're making it clear that satellite delivery of television is eventually coming to an end.  This is why they're getting in on the streaming market now.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on August 01, 2019, 11:54:33 PM

The advertising-only business model has been unworkable for many many years.

Really?   I repeat my offer to take any FCC monopoly permit any broadcaster who believes it cannot make it on ad revenue alone off their hands.  Simply sign it over.

Quote

The networks would have to start paying their affiliates again.

How tragic for Big Media.  Disney (ABC) made $12.6 Billion last year.  Comcast (NBC) made $11.7 Billion.  Fox made $8.2 Billion.  National Amusements (CBS) which is virtually privately owned by one person, made $8.2 Billion.

How tragic for Big Media.

Quote
If the FCC would let them, I believe most would just turn off those expensive, high-maintenance transmitters, lease the tower space to other services, and use cable, satellite (which will be dying in another decade), and streaming as their "transmitters."  Fortunately, the FCC and Congress won't let them.

Oh, Congress will let them.  All they have to do is go off the air, and become a "cable" channel, like ESPN, CNN, or Discovery.  All of whom exist in the free market, without government granted monopoly.

Quote
The reason is that too many rural areas are not wired for high-speed internet or cable, or may have fiber connections, but not at a data rate that will allow multiple video streams. 

Rural America will never have high speed internet service.

Quote

They're making it clear that satellite delivery of television is eventually coming to an end.  This is why they're getting in on the streaming market now.

Because rural America will never have high speed internet, and for this reason sat. delivered  TV will exist for many decades to come.  Further anyone who thinks that internet TV will not simply be stolen and VPNed out of region doesn't understand how the internet works. 

And, as obviously an employee of Big Media, you better hope so, because internet TV = no retrans for you.  Having to live only on ad rev alone.

How sad for Big Media.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on August 01, 2019, 11:54:33 PM

Quote from: SP Cook on July 20, 2019, 02:18:05 PM
- Which leaves rural people, the main point of this discussion.  Well, Congress left a loophole in for non-profits.  So the cable and dish industry are fostering the foundation of locast, an NON-PROFIT website.  When fully rolled out, an antenna in each market will receive all of the local stations and retransmit them to everyone in the market for a donation of $5/month.

I believe that law was designed for non-profit OTA translator groups, not streaming services like Locast.

QuoteThe local stations will get no payment and will have to go back to living simply on the windfall profits they make from selling advertising, since they could no longer take TV signals away from people to demand more money.   A rare instance where the consumer is going to win.

The advertising-only business model has been unworkable for many many years.  The subscriber fees paid to local broadcasters (who, in turn, pay the networks... unlike decades past where the networks paid their affiliates for time) are what keep them on the air.  Broadcasters today make almost no money from OTA; effectively just a small percentage of their total ad revenue, since 75-85% of their viewership is via cable, satellite, and online, not via their transmitters.  If they had to survive with just advertising, all those bloated news departments, and 6-12 hours of news and feature programming per day would go away.  So would maybe half of the stations currently on the air.  The networks would have to start paying their affiliates again.

For example, CBS has lost about 1/4 of their viewership in those markets where their O&O stations and other affiliates (such as Meredith stations) are blacked out on Dish Network.  That means that they don't get a dime from Dish until they make a new deal.  That includes 18 of the Top 25 media markets.  Meredith owns CBS affiliates in another five.  That has to hurt the bottom line big-time.  That's close to 1/16 of the country's population (assuming that's Dish's market share; it has to be close) that doesn't receive CBS unless people make arrangements elsewhere.  And they are.  Dish is bleeding subscriber cancellations.

If the FCC would let them, I believe most would just turn off those expensive, high-maintenance transmitters, lease the tower space to other services, and use cable, satellite (which will be dying in another decade), and streaming as their "transmitters."  Fortunately, the FCC and Congress won't let them.  The reason is that too many rural areas are not wired for high-speed internet or cable, or may have fiber connections, but not at a data rate that will allow multiple video streams.  It took over 60 years after the invention of dial telephone service in around 1910, and its almost immediate use in urban areas (beginning in 1915), before it was universal in the Continental US.  Nationwide high speed internet could take close to that long, and it's only been available to the general public for about 20 years now.  Despite the comparative few viewers that use OTA, broadcast TV will be around for some time to come, even though they are money-losers for the broadcasters.

In fact, I think Canada is making a big mistake in turning off their OTA transmitters in rural areas.  What happens when their satellites start dying?  This is what AT&T/DirecTV is predicting will happen with their birds after another 10 years or so.  They're making it clear that satellite delivery of television is eventually coming to an end.  This is why they're getting in on the streaming market now.

DirecTV is the ones with the blackout. An even larger share of the population than those with Dish Network. Dish Network is only Meredith's stations. They do own some large market stations (KC, St. Louis, Atlanta, Phoenix). Plus anyone with DirecTV Now is missing CBS.

And the Nexstar dispute is an even bigger problem. In my market (Charleston), we've been missing NBC and CW for a month now. About 15-20% of the market has been missing NBC for that length of time.

Los Angeles is the biggest DirecTV market by far. As of 2015, they had almost 1.3 million subscribers in that area, double the amount of the New York area. Probably less than that now, but they've been missing CBS for about 2 weeks now. That's a huge loss for that network.

Here is that page with the information. Some of it is probably a little out of date due to cord-cutting, but it still gives you a good idea how people get their TV.

http://researchexcellence.com/files/pdf/2015-07/id302_mvpd_dma_level_digital_subscriber_data_june_2015.pdf

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on August 01, 2019, 11:54:33 PM
If the FCC would let them, I believe most would just turn off those expensive, high-maintenance transmitters, lease the tower space to other services, and use cable, satellite (which will be dying in another decade), and streaming as their "transmitters."  Fortunately, the FCC and Congress won't let them.  The reason is that too many rural areas are not wired for high-speed internet or cable, or may have fiber connections, but not at a data rate that will allow multiple video streams.  It took over 60 years after the invention of dial telephone service in around 1910, and its almost immediate use in urban areas (beginning in 1915), before it was universal in the Continental US.  Nationwide high speed internet could take close to that long, and it's only been available to the general public for about 20 years now.  Despite the comparative few viewers that use OTA, broadcast TV will be around for some time to come, even though they are money-losers for the broadcasters.

The irony is that the parts of the country where digital TV signals come is well are the same parts of the country that already have broadband.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 02, 2019, 09:15:26 AM
And, as obviously an employee of Big Media, you better hope so, because internet TV = no retrans for you.  Having to live only on ad rev alone.

Nope.  While some local stations do stream their broadcasts online, by and large TV streaming is paid - sometimes both subscriptions AND ads at the same time!  See: CBS All Access, Hulu

^I subscribe to CBS All Access and pay an extra $4 a month not to have commercials.  I wish Hulu had the same option.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 02, 2019, 09:15:26 AM

Quote
The reason is that too many rural areas are not wired for high-speed internet or cable, or may have fiber connections, but not at a data rate that will allow multiple video streams. 

Rural America will never have high speed internet service.

What is internet service like in rural America?  I haven't dealt with it since before streaming video was a thing.  My family has done just fine streaming multiple video streams with just 15 MBps download, and I know other people who have reported no problems with as little as 5 MBps download or even less.

Quote from: SP Cook on August 02, 2019, 09:15:26 AM
And, as obviously an employee of Big Media, you better hope so, because internet TV = no retrans for you.  Having to live only on ad rev alone.

How sad for Big Media.

Nope, I've never worked for any media outlet, big or small.  I'm retired, so I don't work anywhere.

And internet streaming most certainly can mean retransmission fees.  The FCC doesn't regulate it, but I believe copyright law does.  Unless a broadcaster/streamer chooses to offer its services for free (many do), they have the right to charge if they want to.

Quote from: ce929wax on August 02, 2019, 02:09:10 PM
^I subscribe to CBS All Access and pay an extra $4 a month not to have commercials.  I wish Hulu had the same option.

Hulu definitely does. It's $12 a month (I think the regular version is $6).

Unless you mean the Hulu Live TV service. That wouldn't really be too possible, because it's mostly just broadcasting networks that have ads baked in.

Technically I never was in Rural America Before Cable. But I have a few other experiences. Also I want to comment on a few other things in the discussion:


In the 1980s we moved from an urban area to a rural area be cause Those People were from rural areas them selves. I do not remember what television was like in the urban area. But in the rural area perhaps it would have been much better with much higher quality televisions. But there was not any in the place that I was. It was mostly a bunch of black and white battery capable televisions. Eventually there was a colour television. One with a light grey screen when turned off. This was a dial television. Two dials. The first dial is for Very High Frequency. And the other dial is for Ultra High Frequency. There is a third knob for power and volume. And most likely a bunch of very tiny knobs to adjust the picture.

A Video Home System, A Video Cassette Recorder (I hate them.) at one point in time was a Top Loading one. There were other things such as Vinyl Phonographs as part of a stereo system. (The remaining radios being portable.) Eventually the television was upgraded to a same size 12 or so Inch Magnavox television with side speakers that looked like they detached but did not. Remote Control. I don't think I have this television any more (nor the remote). As for V.C.R.s, I hate them. Many of them wore out so there is no point in trying to remember. Eventually there is a full colour television added. Another dial based one. Borrowed This was replaced with an Emerson television with a built in V.C.R. (and of course, the built in V.C.R. no longer works.) I still have this television. What I love about combo televisions is that they go to the silent blue screen, not the usual annoying noise. (Even if the V.C.R. is broken the silent blue screen still works.) In 2003 (?) In 2001 I dumpster dived a Sharp television made in 1987. It has the black screen when turned off. Remote control, but in the form of a classic wood furniture. Unfortunately it is wrecked, and the television was always malfunctioning so I doubt I will repair it. There was also a dumpster dived Zenith television, light grey screen, no remote, and the usual Zenith "won't turn on until it is ready, and when it finally does it keeps changing the channel" problems. I do not have the Zenith any more. (Interestingly I dumpster dived a much newer Zenith, with the same problem! I do not know if I still have it, but if I do I will get rid of it.) I got a Sanyo 18 or so inch television since 2003 which I still have. A J.V.C. perhaps 25 inch or perhaps larger television. And there are numerous televisions I got at a garage sale for a dollar each. These are currently in storage as I have not found any use or place to put them. They are all C.R.T. televisions. I do not need to upgrade which I will explain why later.


The television viewing experience was never that good to begin with. Perhaps if the televisions I had back then were larger, I would be able to watch more clearly.

In addition to the too small televisions, the only antennas were the ones built in to the televisions. And I don't think the black and white battery televisions had U.H.F. antennas.

Perhaps if there was an outdoor antenna installed, there would be more T.V. Stations to watch. I am not sure how many TV Stations there actually are for the local D.M.A. ... perhaps several Low Power ones? But for a while most of the time there was barely three stations. Two V.H.F. and One U.H.F. stations. The U.H.F. is a P.B.S. station. The other two was just a C.B.S. and an N.B.C. with the N.B.C. being the weakest station. An outdoor antenna would be needed to watch it.

Eventually that place got Cable TV installed so that is what most people had in their houses. The Cable TV provider easily provided the local stations. And be cause the D.M.A. had few T.V. Stations, it included some of the other stations from two other nearby T.V. Stations especially important for the lack of A.B.C. and FOX. There could not be more than one national feed from the same network. That meant that while FOX and A.B.C. was easily added from that other nearby D.M.A. the C.B.S. one was not added. P.B.S. was not added either. Eventually when the stations were launched, W.B. and U.P.N. were added from that D.M.A. also. But very interesting is that one C.B.S. station, for what ever reason, was included, and from a third D.M.A.. This was the only station from a third D.M.A.. When the national feed aired, the cable company blacked it out and displayed a message to change the channel to the other C.B.S. station.

That place did not have Cable Television for very long and was only for one television. The moment that Prime Star (PrimeStar) was launched, they switched to PrimeStar without Cable. Again it was for one television. Perhaps there could have been PrimeStar on one television in one room and in Cable television in another room. The other televisions were only connected to their own antennas. Also, PrimeStar was very expensive, making Cable TV or PrimeStar in a second television not easy. PrimeStar seemed to have a few packages: 1. H.B.O. and etc. 2. Other PayPerView. 3. Every Thing Else. Those are over a thousand channels, many of them PrimeStar channels for regional weather (and all of them were included) as well as a bunch of satellite radio stations. There were a few stations from Japan also. PrimeStar was a digital satellite system. It had a computerized receiver box with menu. When it rained, the signal would have giant pixels. And there would be the option to block out channels if desired (but still have to pay the same amount.)

PrimeStar launched additional satellites every year, meaning more channels every year. The cost went up also. I was told that they would not renew PrimeStar and I was asked what I thought about Cable. Being raised in a place that is so religious that it makes religious people look atheist, I thought of the Channel Blocking option that PrimeStar had. I believed that if I watched television with an unflitered service, my eye balls would burn up or some thing. So I said: "As long as Cable TV does not have the same things as PrimeStar, especially the Blocking, I don't want to watch TV at all." They were "proud" and they thought I was thinking of their budget.

But the televisions were not turned off and instead back to boring Rabbit Ears that usually did not get any signal. Other times it did (or perhaps this during the PrimeStar period but on one of the other Rabbit Ears televisions.) get a few other stations from That Nearby D.M.A. It got an Independent station, now a My Network TV (most Independent stations became an affiliate once the network launched) ... another independent station, which is now a Telefutura, and a W.B. station, as well as a second W.B. Local Low Power Station which are now C.W.s.)

Also By this time there was a lot of tapes. This was when Walmart had many V.H.S. Home Videos. Other times we rented movies which I made copies of. The rest were from what few Television programmes I recorded. This was mostly The Arthur Show on P.B.S.. Unfortunately The Arthur Show has not made 60 episodes per year for a very long time and I became disappointed when I started to run out of new episodes to watch and at the time I did not want to rewatch the same episodes.

Wheel Of Fortune was another programme that was on every day. Unfortunately, it was on the station with the weakest signal.

Around this time, or perhaps

It was not much longer until a school assignment that required everybody write down what they watch on television to see if any body else watched it or even heard of it (?!) and it turned out that every body else had Cable and nobody else knew what I was talking about.

After that, I asked for more TV channels again. I did not think about outdoor antennas nor a different satellite dish company. Since by that time that place had Cable Internet installed, that is where we went to first to get more TV channels. By this time every room had a Television as well as a Cable in it. Eventually, a large collection of V.C.R. (with some D.V.D. and V.H.S. together) be cause V.C.R.s and D.V.D.s wear out often.

They bought a different house. It too had Cable Internet with Cable T.V. also. The Cable T.V. was in every room.

In 2006 the local D.M.A. launched its A.T.S.C. signal with their own fledgeling affiliates for U.P.N. / My Network T.V. , W.B. / C.W. , and Fox. The local Cable Company decided to replace all the other stations from The Nearby D.M.A. with the local D.M.A.'s new A.T.S.C. stations. (but they still kept the second C.B.S. station from the third D.M.A., complete with blackouts during the national feed.)

In 2007 I Moved Out and did not move back nor did I ever stay in any place that had Cable T.V., not even Satellite Dish. There was Cable T.V. at High School and University and other places but that is it.

Around this time I stayed at places with Cable Internet but no Cable T.V. and the next place had only Dial Up with Rabbit Ears but only TWO stations. I wondered why I could not get the three new local stations nor the P.B.S. station. Their extended family lived in a different house with Satellite Dish T.V..

Around this time they began the switch to A.T.S.C. signal which required converter boxes for older televisions. They offered them for free. When I connected them I was able to get the three new A.T.S.C. stations plus a N.O.A.A. Weather Map, during a time when the voice was higher quality.

I moved again, but kept the boxes. I also had some televisions, but no antenna at all. I bought a "Digital" Antenna, which is a silly Artec blue wallpaper thing.

Still not able to get a clear signal for the weaker station, nor could I get P.B.S., I was fed up.

I finally looked for Outdoor Antennas. I found an Outdoor Ampilfied Antenna that did not cost very much. Made of almost entirely plastic, and no pole at the time (I have a pole now) I used to not have it installed correctly. It crashed to the ground and broke many times. I have gone through numerous antennas.

I was able to get signal from that nearby D.M.A. and discovered that they also launched their own Subchannels. There are now at least 50 channels available during most nights, and some times during the day.  :biggrin: Many of these stations are Spanish.  :sombrero:

Eventually the local stations added a A.B.C. as well as expanded their newscasts to every station. And the local P.B.S. station repaired its translator. But I only had one antenna and I wanted to watch the stations from the very large D.M.A. with plenty of channels. If I want to watch more channels, I buy a second antenna and point it towards a different D.M.A..

I have had no reason to ever get Satellite Dish Television. I have not watch Cable / Satellite Television since then.

Also, I have Satellite Dish Internet since 2016. This Internet Service is (usually) reliable, but very expensive. That is one reason to not pay for Satellite Television. Another reason is that in 2006 is when they launched those other channels I wanted and tried to watch them instead. Also in 2006 Television also became barely watchable, not worth the expense. In 2008 I finally watched the new channels over the air which means I had less desire to pay for television. When I when I bought an outdoor amplified antenna, I have even less of a need for Television Subscription.

In 2012 Television became even more unwatchable. I started to turn it off more often and instead listen to Internet Radio. In 2015 I started to get more computers that have the capability to watch High Definition "Television" from You Tube. Also, You Tube sells copies of movies and episodes. I will download these movies and episodes, but I do not want to get from iTunes be cause they force you to use iTunes. Of course my favourite things to watch now are people that upload to You Tube.

This means that I do not turn the television on at all any more, even though I moved again. This time I live in an area within 50 miles between THREE D.M.A.s surrounding me, with a fourth one 100 miles away. There are probably even more D.M.A.s also, but I have yet to install multiple antennas. Perhaps I will set up all those C.R.T. televisions ... one C.R.T. television & outdoor antenna for each D.M.A. ... Eventually I will install a Big Ugly Dish for television also, but ever since 2011 the commercials are very annoying.

As for purchasing new Televisions: I will get All In One Desktop Computers instead.

...

Also I want to comment about a few things from classic Television:

Does anybody remember QUBE? As a fan of old game show hosts such as Bill Cullen, I learned about QUBE be cause of a programme called "How Do You Like Your Eggs?".

There was a few discussion about local programming. This was a national programme on A.B.C. which means that it has been lost. It aired in 1971, much too early when television episodes were regularly preserved or for people to have recorded it. However, Somebody actually managed to record at least part of the pilot episode. It is Curiosity Shop with executive producer Chuck Jones and includes a puppet version of Professor Balthazar. It is not that much different from a local television block. Or perhaps not. But the stage does not look very big.

Quote from: kphoger on August 02, 2019, 02:54:53 PM

Quote from: SP Cook on August 02, 2019, 09:15:26 AM

Quote
The reason is that too many rural areas are not wired for high-speed internet or cable, or may have fiber connections, but not at a data rate that will allow multiple video streams. 

Rural America will never have high speed internet service.

What is internet service like in rural America?  I haven't dealt with it since before streaming video was a thing.  My family has done just fine streaming multiple video streams with just 15 MBps download, and I know other people who have reported no problems with as little as 5 MBps download or even less.

It is there, but very expensive. There are four options.

Dial Up. (I Think.)

W.I.S.P. (A type of Internet service not much different from Cell Phone companies, except it is worse. )

Cell Phone Companies themselves usually offer a Residential service or at least a tethering device.

Satellite Dish. It is much better than WISP, and resembles Cable as you get a Modem. It is just like how Satellite Dish Television is an adequate substitute for Cable Television. You can also get a home telephone (through the satellite and modem itself) just as you can with Satellite Dish Television. But Satellite Dish Internet is still not worth the trouble.

Occasionally there is D.S.L. and Cable in a rural area. Fiber Internet is only available if you are in the city limits but the city does not have to be large. It can be small enough for U.S.D.A. to consider it as a rural area.

If you are not too far away from a large city, you will get a variety of Internet Service Providers.

But Cell Phone Companies are very expensive no matter what.

I have rarely streamed video. I have mostly streamed Internet Radio. Internet Radio has no problems. Internet Video is best at a lower setting. I prefer storage such as offline storage.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on August 01, 2019, 11:54:33 PM
If the FCC would let them, I believe most would just turn off those expensive, high-maintenance transmitters, ...

I would love to see the FCC rule that prevents them, but there is a more practical reason they do not.  If, say, a city's Channel 2 goes cable-only, they turn over their license to the FCC. Then some fly-by-night broadcaster could get it, and claim that city's virtual Channel 2.  They would put on satellite religious stations and home shopping channels on SD over their many multi-channel 2s.  And they wouldn't charge cable channels for the signal, they would demand they carry it.  They might even get to use the call letters too, if the owners of the original Channel 2 didn't think ahead and park them on a radio station somewhere with an agreement not to let them out to a TV station.  To protect their brand, they have to keep their transmitter.  But then, with spectrum repacking, anything can happen.

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on August 01, 2019, 11:54:33 PMIf the FCC would let them, I believe most would just turn off those expensive, high-maintenance transmitters, lease the tower space to other services, and use cable, satellite (which will be dying in another decade), and streaming as their "transmitters."

In a sense, that's what's happening with the current restacking of frequency assignments.  The FCC wants to reassign TV broadcast spectrum to cellular phone use.  To make that possible, the FCC held a kind of auction, in which stations agreed to surrender their broadcast licenses in return for $$.   Some of those stations are going dark; others are transferring to digital subchannels of continuing stations.  And a bunch of stations are moving to different over-the-air frequencies, requiring OTA TV watchers to rescan their tuners.

Here in Hartford/New Haven, WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 of New Haven became a subchannel of WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 of New Haven. WTNH uses channel 10 for their digital. So if you don't have a proper VHF antenna, you may not receive either station.

Then again, we've got one of the highest rates of cable penetration in the entire country.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 07, 2019, 12:07:18 AM

Quote from: KeithE4Phx on August 01, 2019, 11:54:33 PMIf the FCC would let them, I believe most would just turn off those expensive, high-maintenance transmitters, lease the tower space to other services, and use cable, satellite (which will be dying in another decade), and streaming as their "transmitters."

In a sense, that's what's happening with the current restacking of frequency assignments.  The FCC wants to reassign TV broadcast spectrum to cellular phone use.  To make that possible, the FCC held a kind of auction, in which stations agreed to surrender their broadcast licenses in return for $$.   Some of those stations are going dark; others are transferring to digital subchannels of continuing stations.  And a bunch of stations are moving to different over-the-air frequencies, requiring OTA TV watchers to rescan their tuners.

Actually, it's Congress that mandated all of this.  The FCC cannot make rules unless Congress passes laws to base them on.

Congress allowed the auctions, and allowing co-owned stations to merge their stations onto one transmitter makes sense.  Once ATSC 3.0 is released for commercial use, expect more consolidations of duopolies to happen, freeing up more spectrum.  There are only 35 TV channels (2-36) left, compared to 82 until the early 1980s, and 68 between then and now.  Consolidating duopolies might be mandatory with ATSC 3.0, but that hasn't been decided yet.

And it's unlikely that the FCC will ever allow existing TV stations to shut down without giving those channels to some crackpot religious or home shopping outfit.  Those "broadcasters" would then demand must-carry status instead of taking carriage fees (which any station can do), bouncing the former station either off a system completely, banished to a three- or four-digit channel number, or forced to being online-only. 

Today's broadcasters need to be careful what they wish for.  If they get it, they could be put out of business.  Online-only broadcasting by mainstream local stations is still in the future, especially those which have network affiliations.

 [/quote]
There are only 35 TV channels (2-36) left, compared to 82 until the early 1980s, and 68 between then and now. 
[/quote]

Are you sure of that number?  I have local digital stations of 44.1, 44.2, and 47.1

Quote from: Life in Paradise on August 07, 2019, 01:34:44 PM
Are you sure of that number?  I have local digital stations of 44.1, 44.2, and 47.1

Those are likely virtual channel numbers, not their actual UHF digital channel numbers.

Most channels these days use virtual channel numbers.  ABC here broadcasts as 10.1 but is actually on channel 24 (26 until last week).  CW is 45.1, broadcasting on 22 (43 until last week).

Also, thank the stars for the repack.  I can't receive high-band UHF well at all (it always required very inconvenient repositioning of the antenna in winter, and there was nothing that could be done to make those stations watchable in the summer).  The only station that didn't just move frequency (or stay as it was) was a retransmission of ABC from a tower in Massachusetts.  I even gained a station that my antenna was previously unable to pick up due to the combination of the high-band UHF issue and it transmitting from Amsterdam instead of the Helderbergs like every other station does.

Granted, it doesn't hurt that my TV reception this year has been better than last year for reasons unknown.

Not looking forward to ATSC 3.  I don't want to have to buy a new TV or connect an external tuner.  But I wasn't aware of any effort to make it mandatory.

Quote from: rawmustard on August 07, 2019, 02:31:33 PM

Quote from: Life in Paradise on August 07, 2019, 01:34:44 PM
Are you sure of that number?  I have local digital stations of 44.1, 44.2, and 47.1

Those are likely virtual channel numbers, not their actual UHF digital channel numbers.

They are virtual (PSIP) channel numbers.  As far as their transmitters are concerned, they could be anywhere between Channels 2 and 36, but the PSIP will be what the old analog channel number was.  It keeps the general public and station marketing departments happy, not to mention giving the translators (if any) a common virtual channel number.

Quote from: vdeane on August 07, 2019, 09:27:27 PM
Most channels these days use virtual channel numbers.  ABC here broadcasts as 10.1 but is actually on channel 24 (26 until last week).  CW is 45.1, broadcasting on 22 (43 until last week).

Also, thank the stars for the repack.  I can't receive high-band UHF well at all (it always required very inconvenient repositioning of the antenna in winter, and there was nothing that could be done to make those stations watchable in the summer).  The only station that didn't just move frequency (or stay as it was) was a retransmission of ABC from a tower in Massachusetts.  I even gained a station that my antenna was previously unable to pick up due to the combination of the high-band UHF issue and it transmitting from Amsterdam instead of the Helderbergs like every other station does.

Granted, it doesn't hurt that my TV reception this year has been better than last year for reasons unknown.

Not looking forward to ATSC 3.  I don't want to have to buy a new TV or connect an external tuner.  But I wasn't aware of any effort to make it mandatory.

Did something change within the last couple weeks?  I'm getting better reception on the Chicago stations.  I have Hulu Live TV which gives me the ABC/CBS/FOX/NBC stations, but I have to use the antenna for WGN 9 and any of the subchannels and they're all coming in better than they used to.

The FCC just reallocated some frequencies such that most stations have been advising antenna users to rescan for channels. In most cities this happened last week. I've noted the one or two "problem channels"  for us seem better now.

As for Albany/Schenectady, I think  WCDC-TV channel 19 in Adams, MA is no more. It was a satellite station to WTEN-TV (ABC) channel 10.

WHPX-TV (ION) channel 26 is licensed to New London, CT. As of last week, however, their transmitter is now on Rattlesnake Mountain in Farmington, CT...a good 50 miles from their city of license.

Geeky TV technobabble:

- The original TV was analog, called NTSC.  This was two bands, VHF, which was preferable, on channels 2-13; and UHF on channels 14-83.  The number, unlike radio station frequencies, are just made up, channel 5 is not actually five hertz or watts or whatever.  Each analog channel could only broadcast one thing at a time. 

- In 2009 the NTSC system was replaced by digital, or ATSC.  Every TV station was given a new channel to broadcast on.  However modern TVs can make the channel number appear to be whatever the station wants it to be, a "virtural channel", called PSIP.   Thus, for example WCBS in NYC, which was really channel 2 in analog, moved to channel 56 and then channel 33, but would show up on a TV as "2.1".  This preserves the "equity" in the brand name of channels built up in different markets over the years.   The "2.1" is important because a digital signal can be split many ways.  So there can be a 2.2, 2.3, 2.4, etc, each with a different program on it, and thought of by most people as a separate channel. 

Mostly these extra "channels" are taken up by "diginets" which are channel like Me TV, My TV, H&I, TBA, Cozi, and many others, mostly showing ancient reruns from the 60s and 70s.  But there is nothing that says the extra channels have to be diginets.  In a lot of small markets, where there were less than five TV stations, the extra channels can be used for the "missing" networks.  For example in Beckley, WV, one station is .1 CBS and .2 Fox, while another is .1 NBC and .2 CW, giving that area "all" five networks for the first time. 

But, and here is the crooked part of the deal, likewise stations figured out that they carry multiple networks on one actual channel.  So the FCC had a "reverse auction" to get stations to "go off the air" and free up the higher UHF frequencies for cell phones and other things.    So, for example, WNBC in NYG got over $200M to go off the air, when all it actually did was move to the second feed on another station, using PSIP to show up as 4.1, as always.  Of course, this was all a pay back to Big Media for decades of loyal service.