Seems like there are finally some serious steps, as design funds are being voted upon.
https://www.masslive.com/capecod/2019/06/5-million-approved-by-house-for-project-to-replace-outdated-sagamore-bourne-bridges-on-cape-cod.html
I'm ambivalent. These are among the most beautiful bridges in Massachusetts, and I love driving over them. But the possibilities opened by starting anew are intriguing.
Build the tunnel. :D
Could this mean that there may be a Cape Cod Canal Bridges/Tunnels Meet in the distant future?
Quote from: kevinb1994 on June 27, 2019, 04:00:50 PM
Could this mean that there may be a Cape Cod Canal Bridges/Tunnels Meet in the distant future?
Down, boy. 🐶
Wish it would include a limited access US 6 bypass between MA 25 and MA 3.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on June 27, 2019, 09:26:33 AM
I'm ambivalent. These are among the most beautiful bridges in Massachusetts, and I love driving over them. But the possibilities opened by starting anew are intriguing.
The problem is that when they were built, they connected to surface streets (via rotaries) on all ends with far lower traffic needs. Now, 3 of those 4 ends connect directly to freeways (the rotary on the south end of the Bourne is the last original rotary left), and the bridges have become a public safety hazard for the reasons stated in the article.
8 total lanes are needed (2 travel lanes, 1 aux lane, 1 shoulder/breakdown lane - per side). And the Cape Cod NIMBYs are already complaining in the comments.
I say meet the NIMBYs halfway, and make the new bridges at least RESEMBLE the old ones...just wider. That way the Canal retains the aesthetics it's had for the last 80+ years.
It will be bridges only. No way will you get any new highway construction. There would be too great a disruption to wildlife habitats. What I wish they would do is extend I-195 to MA 3 as an additional route to Plymouth. I would like to see the new bridges designed with a character similar to the current ones and possibly with a but more clearence so taller cruise ships could get underneath. And yes, cruise ships do use the Canal.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on July 06, 2019, 07:00:53 PMWhat I wish they would do is extend I-195 to MA 3 as an additional route to Plymouth.
That would be nice... then there would be an all-highway route from New York to the Cape, which there isn't at present. You'd think those who live in the Buzzards Bay area would be all for a bypass to take that thru traffic off of Scenic Highway.
To be fair, all routes through the Cape are locked up in summer. I-195 will just speed people faster into the bottlenecks of 6/6A.
These bridges sound fishy.
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 01, 2019, 07:52:47 AM
8 total lanes are needed (2 travel lanes, 1 aux lane, 1 shoulder/breakdown lane - per side). And the Cape Cod NIMBYs are already complaining in the comments.
I say meet the NIMBYs halfway, and make the new bridges at least RESEMBLE the old ones...just wider. That way the Canal retains the aesthetics it's had for the last 80+ years.
I wonder if a path in the replacement bridge for pedestrians and cyclists might calm a bit the nimbys? The long awaited A-25 bridge between Montreal and Laval was finally built after years of opposition with the inclusion of a bike path.
Quote from: Alps on July 06, 2019, 11:58:45 PM
To be fair, all routes through the Cape are locked up in summer. I-195 will just speed people faster into the bottlenecks of 6/6A.
But it could be useful if there's a major accident in between it and the bridges. And it would be an additional evacuation route for the South Coast. Plus, if you wanted to, say, go from Plymouth to New Bedford you wouldn't have to jog southeast to Bourne.
QuoteI wonder if a path in the replacement bridge for pedestrians and cyclists might calm a bit the nimbys?
Moot point. A separate (and wider) bike/ped path is already proposed for both bridges.
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/feds-again-reject-cape-cod-bridge-replacement-funds/2936229/
No new Cape Cod bridges, not anytime soon at least.
Quote from: SectorZ on January 05, 2023, 12:06:23 PM
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/feds-again-reject-cape-cod-bridge-replacement-funds/2936229/
No new Cape Cod bridges, not anytime soon at least.
Eh, I wouldn't write them off yet. This is like saying that because the I-81 Viaduct Project in Syracuse was rejected for a couple of major federal grants that the project will not move forward, which, of course, is and was not the case. Funding options are many and as long as the need to replace the bridges is there, MA will find a way, especially with the other funding already secured.
Quote from: Rothman on January 05, 2023, 07:31:23 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on January 05, 2023, 12:06:23 PM
https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/feds-again-reject-cape-cod-bridge-replacement-funds/2936229/
No new Cape Cod bridges, not anytime soon at least.
Eh, I wouldn't write them off yet. This is like saying that because the I-81 Viaduct Project in Syracuse was rejected for a couple of major federal grants that the project will not move forward, which, of course, is and was not the case. Funding options are many and as long as the need to replace the bridges is there, MA will find a way, especially with the other funding already secured.
Guess they only bridge they had money for was the Gold Star.
Massachusetts had a $5 billion surplus their most recent year, and $3 billion of that was given back to the residents by state law. They definitely have the money.
Quote from: 1 on January 05, 2023, 10:18:50 PM
Massachusetts had a $5 billion surplus their most recent year, and $3 billion of that was given back to the residents by state law. They definitely have the money.
Wow. If they're looking for ideas, the surplus should go towards widening the Mass Pike to 8 lanes from Sturbridge to I-495.
I wonder what it would cost to leave those bridges alone, and build a third bridge between them connecting MA-25 to US-6. I would think that would end up carrying perhaps as much as half the total Cape traffic, leaving the others with much less traffic on them.
^ The existing bridges are pushing towards 100 years old. Even if not fully replaced, they would both still require significant rehabilitation. Nevermind that, between wetlands and the quarry north of the canal, and the national guard base and wildlife management area south of the canal, there is no good place to put a third bridge.
What about almost due east from Marion or Mattapoisett? While it would be a 3.4 mile bridge from Piney Point Rd in Marion to where Wings Neck Rd. meets Middle Rd. and S Rd. in Bourne, or 5.7 miles from Cedar Rd./Bay Rd. in Mattapoisett to Point Rd. in Falmouth, and the approach roads would need to be upgraded in either case, it's not insurmountable. I have no idea whether there are environmental issues here or not, though. (I haven't done the research here.)
Quote from: 1 on January 06, 2023, 09:45:45 AM
What about almost due east from Marion or Mattapoisett? While it would be a 3.4 mile bridge from Piney Point Rd in Marion to where Wings Neck Rd. meets Middle Rd. and S Rd. in Bourne, or 5.7 miles from Cedar Rd./Bay Rd. in Mattapoisett to Point Rd. in Falmouth, and the approach roads would need to be upgraded in either case, it's not insurmountable. I have no idea whether there are environmental issues here or not, though. (I haven't done the research here.)
That wouldn't work either. A LOT of residential that you'd be taking out to even attempt this. Everything on the west shore of Cape Cod is either residential/vacation house development or Town Forest/Conservation Area.
Quote from: froggie on January 06, 2023, 09:36:58 AM
^ The existing bridges are pushing towards 100 years old. Even if not fully replaced, they would both still require significant rehabilitation. Nevermind that, between wetlands and the quarry north of the canal, and the national guard base and wildlife management area south of the canal, there is no good place to put a third bridge.
Those are all artificial limitations that could be eliminated through eminent domain (a bit of the quarry), and an agreement with the military (the way I-5 goes through Camp Pendleton, CA). It looks to me like on the Cape side, the road would be completely within the base, so I don't know where there would be an environmental problem (other than everything is always an environmental problem). Physically, such a route would work very well, and be useful because it connects the bulk of the off-Cape area, which is mostly served by I-495 and I-195, to the bulk of the on-Cape area, which is mostly served by US-6.
Quote from: pderocco on January 08, 2023, 03:57:40 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 06, 2023, 09:36:58 AM
^ The existing bridges are pushing towards 100 years old. Even if not fully replaced, they would both still require significant rehabilitation. Nevermind that, between wetlands and the quarry north of the canal, and the national guard base and wildlife management area south of the canal, there is no good place to put a third bridge.
Those are all artificial limitations that could be eliminated through eminent domain (a bit of the quarry), and an agreement with the military (the way I-5 goes through Camp Pendleton, CA). It looks to me like on the Cape side, the road would be completely within the base, so I don't know where there would be an environmental problem (other than everything is always an environmental problem). Physically, such a route would work very well, and be useful because it connects the bulk of the off-Cape area, which is mostly served by I-495 and I-195, to the bulk of the on-Cape area, which is mostly served by US-6.
The bridges would have to be mighty tall to clear US 6 on the west end. The land around the Canal is not flat.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 09, 2023, 02:35:08 PM
Quote from: pderocco on January 08, 2023, 03:57:40 AM
Quote from: froggie on January 06, 2023, 09:36:58 AM
^ The existing bridges are pushing towards 100 years old. Even if not fully replaced, they would both still require significant rehabilitation. Nevermind that, between wetlands and the quarry north of the canal, and the national guard base and wildlife management area south of the canal, there is no good place to put a third bridge.
Those are all artificial limitations that could be eliminated through eminent domain (a bit of the quarry), and an agreement with the military (the way I-5 goes through Camp Pendleton, CA). It looks to me like on the Cape side, the road would be completely within the base, so I don't know where there would be an environmental problem (other than everything is always an environmental problem). Physically, such a route would work very well, and be useful because it connects the bulk of the off-Cape area, which is mostly served by I-495 and I-195, to the bulk of the on-Cape area, which is mostly served by US-6.
The bridges would have to be mighty tall to clear US 6 on the west end. The land around the Canal is not flat.
Doesn't matter much how high the bridge is, as long as the two sides are fairly close in height. Looks like just NE of the power lines would work.
MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement (https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement)
Quote from: bob7374 on December 11, 2023, 11:23:19 AM
MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement (https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement)
Interesting that they are considering replacing one of them before the other. I would think there would be economies of scale in bidding both together but that's just speculation.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 13, 2023, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: bob7374 on December 11, 2023, 11:23:19 AM
MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement (https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement)
Interesting that they are considering replacing one of them before the other. I would think there would be economies of scale in bidding both together but that's just speculation.
Replacing both bridges at the same time would seem to make sense, but I think the state's reasoning is twofold: first, one bridge will need to remain open to handle the inevitable delays that will result from construction; also, the Sagamore Bridge should be replaced first, since it handles traffic coming directly from Boston. Either way, I don't envy anyone who lives and works on the Cape.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on December 13, 2023, 07:28:46 AM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on December 13, 2023, 06:10:56 AM
Quote from: bob7374 on December 11, 2023, 11:23:19 AM
MassDOT is attempting again to get grant moneys to help pay for at least 1 of the Cape Cod Canal bridge replacements:
https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement (https://www.mass.gov/news/federal-funding-application-filed-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement)
Interesting that they are considering replacing one of them before the other. I would think there would be economies of scale in bidding both together but that's just speculation.
Replacing both bridges at the same time would seem to make sense, but I think the state's reasoning is twofold: first, one bridge will need to remain open to handle the inevitable delays that will result from construction; also, the Sagamore Bridge should be replaced first, since it handles traffic coming directly from Boston. Either way, I don't envy anyone who lives and works on the Cape.
Might also be wise to consider running the MBTA CapeFlyer service full time during construction, as opposed to just the summer.
MassDOT announces it has been awarded $372 million for rebuilding Cape Cod bridges:
https://www.mass.gov/news/healey-driscoll-administration-celebrates-372-million-win-for-cape-cod-bridges (https://www.mass.gov/news/healey-driscoll-administration-celebrates-372-million-win-for-cape-cod-bridges)
Since the ACoE actually owns the bridges, I feel like the Feds should be chipping in a bit more to begin with. But Congress doesn't seem to have much of an appetite for funding actual Federal roads, as evidenced by the insane backlog of NPS maintenance projects...
Another article on these bridges which are now slated to cost 4.5 billion to replace: https://www.constructionequipmentguide.com/massachusetts-us-lawmakers-announce-372m-in-funds-to-rebuild-cape-cod-bridges/63427
The Sagamore Bridge replacement project has received $371,870,542 in grant moneys as part of the National Infrastructure Assistance (Mega) Program:
https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-01/MEGA%20Fact%20Sheets%20FY%202023-2024_Final.pdf (https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/2024-01/MEGA%20Fact%20Sheets%20FY%202023-2024_Final.pdf)
Is that expected to pay for the whole project? Somehow, that seems like a down payment.
And then there's Bourne...
Quote from: pderocco on January 26, 2024, 02:04:41 AM
Is that expected to pay for the whole project? Somehow, that seems like a down payment.
And then there's Bourne...
I'd imagine the Bourne Bridge will cost more due to its different approach lengths.
One could make a case that Sagamore is the higher need.
That $371M is a "down payment" in a project that will run 10-digits, but it's a significant step.
The Commonwealth has secured additional funding for the new bridges:
https://www.wbur.org/news/2024/07/12/feds-give-another-1-billion-to-replace-the-cape-cod-bridges
More on funding for the Sagamore Bridge in particular:
https://www.wwlp.com/news/massachusetts/feds-award-mass-993-million-for-sagamore-bridge-replacement/
The MassDOT Board has approved the latest 5-Year Capital Improvement Plan which includes funding for the Cape bridges:
https://www.mass.gov/news/massdot-board-approves-167-billion-five-year-capital-investment-plan
How come I-195 or I-495 do not extend over the bridge?
Quote from: bluecountry on July 18, 2024, 12:35:51 PMHow come I-195 or I-495 do not extend over the bridge?
If you mean the Bourne Bridge, then for what purpose? To dump into route 28 on the other side of the bridge?
If you mean the Sagamore Bridge, which is the part of the project being planned now, how would either route get there in the first place as a full freeway meeting Interstate standards?
Even without the significant logistical and financial implications of extending interstate-caliber highways over the bridges, the local opposition would be overwhelming.
I would honestly just like to see MA 25 extended to meet MA 3 on the mainland side of the cape. I-495 could then be designated along said extension. Why this wasn't done decades ago is beyond my comprehension. For a such a short (~2.5 mile) extension, it would significantly improve connectivity/redundancy between the two bridges, and all the more so with the new Sagamore Bridge being built first.
I would even go so far as to say that, with a 6-lane Sagamore Bridge and a freeway connector from I-495 to MA 3, congestion issues approaching the bridges would be so improved that the replacing the Bourne Bridge would no longer be a pressing need. Even though it would still eventually be needed, it would be primarily because of the aging structure rather than capacity constraint issues. It's majorly underrated how much that lack of connectivity and resulting US 6/Sandwich Rd situation exacerbates the congestion issues.
There was to have been a Southside Connector freeway extending MA 25 to the US 6 Mid-Cape Highway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Route_25#Southside_Connector_proposal. It doesn't look like the connector will ever be built and would likely face very strong opposition if it were revived.
^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.
Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 08:34:33 AMI would honestly just like to see MA 25 extended to meet MA 3 on the mainland side of the cape. I-495 could then be designated along said extension. Why this wasn't done decades ago is beyond my comprehension. For a such a short (~2.5 mile) extension, it would significantly improve connectivity/redundancy between the two bridges, and all the more so with the new Sagamore Bridge being built first.
I would even go so far as to say that, with a 6-lane Sagamore Bridge and a freeway connector from I-495 to MA 3, congestion issues approaching the bridges would be so improved that the replacing the Bourne Bridge would no longer be a pressing need. Even though it would still eventually be needed, it would be primarily because of the aging structure rather than capacity constraint issues. It's majorly underrated how much that lack of connectivity and resulting US 6/Sandwich Rd situation exacerbates the congestion issues.
If you want an interstate to extend all the way to the Canal, it may be easier to sign an interstate along MA 3 to the new Sagamore Bridge than attempt to build something new between MA 25 and MA 3.
Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.
Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side? There's basically no way to build what you propose today.
Quote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.
Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side? There's basically no way to build what you propose today.
I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).
Quote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 04:15:33 PMQuote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.
Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side? There's basically no way to build what you propose today.
I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).
Froggie's pointing out that you don't seem to have the expertise or experience with the area to do so.
Quote from: Rothman on July 20, 2024, 08:35:57 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 04:15:33 PMQuote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.
Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side? There's basically no way to build what you propose today.
I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).
Froggie's pointing out that you don't seem to have the expertise or experience with the area to do so.
Nor is that my job, nor did I claim to ... It just seems obvious that it should be part of both DOT and regional planning processes to consider a wide range of alternatives and their implications when undertaking a multi-billion dollar project.
Quote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 09:28:02 PMQuote from: Rothman on July 20, 2024, 08:35:57 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 04:15:33 PMQuote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.
Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side? There's basically no way to build what you propose today.
I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).
Froggie's pointing out that you don't seem to have the expertise or experience with the area to do so.
Nor is that my job, nor did I claim to ... It just seems obvious that it should be part of both DOT and regional planning processes to consider a wide range of alternatives and their implications when undertaking a multi-billion dollar project.
You called it "my proposal."
Quote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 08:34:33 AMI would honestly just like to see MA 25 extended to meet MA 3 on the mainland side of the cape. I-495 could then be designated along said extension. Why this wasn't done decades ago is beyond my comprehension. For a such a short (~2.5 mile) extension, it would significantly improve connectivity/redundancy between the two bridges, and all the more so with the new Sagamore Bridge being built first.
I would even go so far as to say that, with a 6-lane Sagamore Bridge and a freeway connector from I-495 to MA 3, congestion issues approaching the bridges would be so improved that the replacing the Bourne Bridge would no longer be a pressing need. Even though it would still eventually be needed, it would be primarily because of the aging structure rather than capacity constraint issues. It's majorly underrated how much that lack of connectivity and resulting US 6/Sandwich Rd situation exacerbates the congestion issues.
That's a reasonable argument in light of the Sagamore Bridge being enlarged, but perhaps not in the past when it would have unbalanced the traffic between the two basically identical bridges.
Having driven to and from the Cape hundreds of times, including in summer weekend traffic, I always rather wished that Sandwich Rd had been fourlaned on Sandwich Rd on the Cape side between 28 and 6, which would have helped to keep the bridge traffic balanced. That road has an interesting history of being signed as various routes. In the MA official maps that I have, I see the following:
2009,23 -- nothing
1994 -- MA-6A
1965,68,69,70,71,72,73,75,77,79,81,83,84 -- US-6 (yes, US-6 on both sides of the canal)
1955,57,58,60,62,64 -- nothing
1941,45,47,49,50 -- MA-3
before that -- nothing
I remember seeing 6A and US-6 signs on it. There is a Sandwich Road Wikipedia page that says US-6 was signed WB on the mainland side and EB on Sandwich Rd, and the other directions were called US-6 Bypass, but I never noticed that at the time.
Quote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 09:28:02 PMQuote from: Rothman on July 20, 2024, 08:35:57 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 20, 2024, 04:15:33 PMQuote from: froggie on July 20, 2024, 02:39:09 PMQuote from: webny99 on July 19, 2024, 03:01:37 PM^ Notably, my proposal would not require any changes to the Cape crossings other than the expected rebuild of the Sagamore Bridge. The new alignment would remain entirely on the mainland and tie in north of the existing MA 3/US 6 interchange.
Have you looked at the topography, bogs/wetlands, conservation areas, and existing development on the mainland side? There's basically no way to build what you propose today.
I have looked at the area in satellite view, but not in depth. To me this connection is just so much more valuable than either of the individual bridge replacements (especially the Bourne) that it's at least worth considering its feasibility and potential impacts/effects on the bridge project(s).
Froggie's pointing out that you don't seem to have the expertise or experience with the area to do so.
Nor is that my job, nor did I claim to ... It just seems obvious that it should be part of both DOT and regional planning processes to consider a wide range of alternatives and their implications when undertaking a multi-billion dollar project.
Who said they haven't looked at it as part of their planning processes?
^ Maybe it has, but I doubt it considering it hasn't been mentioned in any official capacity here.
Quote from: bluecountry on July 18, 2024, 12:35:51 PMHow come I-195 or I-495 do not extend over the bridge?
Design - the bridges were likely designed in the late twenties, and constructed in the early thirties. As a kid, do remember viewing the dates, mounted on plaques in the super structure, of like 1933 or 1934. Narrow lanes, may be ten feet in width. Steep approaches. No shoulders. Sidewalks directly adjacent to the driving lanes, with a high curb. In no way, shape or form, does the current bridges conform to Interstate standards. The Model T, or "flivver" was in production until 1927, so the design was frankly for vehicles like them.
Quote from: webny99 on July 21, 2024, 09:37:15 AM^ Maybe it has, but I doubt it considering it hasn't been mentioned in any official capacity here.
.
When you've read the project development docs, let us know.
Quote from: DJStephens on July 21, 2024, 11:29:26 AMQuote from: bluecountry on July 18, 2024, 12:35:51 PMHow come I-195 or I-495 do not extend over the bridge?
Design - the bridges were likely designed in the late twenties, and constructed in the early thirties. As a kid, do remember viewing the dates, mounted on plaques in the super structure, of like 1933 or 1934. Narrow lanes, may be ten feet in width. Steep approaches. No shoulders. Sidewalks directly adjacent to the driving lanes, with a high curb. In no way, shape or form, does the current bridges conform to Interstate standards. The Model T, or "flivver" was in production until 1927, so the design was frankly for vehicles like them.
Is MA 25 up to standards?
It seems odd that all of MA 25 did not become I-495 when I-495 got extended east of MA 24.
They probably wanted Interstate 495 to end at another Interstate, which is does at Interstate 195. The remaining portion that is MA 25 probably did not warrant an Interstate designation.
Quote from: roadman65 on July 23, 2024, 10:42:37 AMQuote from: DJStephens on July 21, 2024, 11:29:26 AMQuote from: bluecountry on July 18, 2024, 12:35:51 PMHow come I-195 or I-495 do not extend over the bridge?
Design - the bridges were likely designed in the late twenties, and constructed in the early thirties. As a kid, do remember viewing the dates, mounted on plaques in the super structure, of like 1933 or 1934. Narrow lanes, may be ten feet in width. Steep approaches. No shoulders. Sidewalks directly adjacent to the driving lanes, with a high curb. In no way, shape or form, does the current bridges conform to Interstate standards. The Model T, or "flivver" was in production until 1927, so the design was frankly for vehicles like them.
Is MA 25 up to standards?
Yes, by a country mile.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on July 23, 2024, 11:31:07 AMThey probably wanted Interstate 495 to end at another Interstate, which is does at Interstate 195. The remaining portion that is MA 25 probably did not warrant an Interstate designation.
I-495 ended at I-195 before all of the MA 25 freeway was completed to the Bourne Bridge. While maintaining that choice is possible, they didn't deliberately end the designation early for that reason.
Quote from: SectorZ on July 23, 2024, 04:23:27 PMQuote from: The Ghostbuster on July 23, 2024, 11:31:07 AMThey probably wanted Interstate 495 to end at another Interstate, which is does at Interstate 195. The remaining portion that is MA 25 probably did not warrant an Interstate designation.
I-495 ended at I-195 before all of the MA 25 freeway was completed to the Bourne Bridge. While maintaining that choice is possible, they didn't deliberately end the designation early for that reason.
The MA 25 extension to the Bourne Bridge was tied up for literally decades. It could and should have been done in the late fifties. Traffic backups on US 6 in Wareham, and Buzzards Bay, leading E to the bridge were legendary. A fix took decades, and what would have been relatively easy in the late fifties, meaning a probable clearance and overlay of US 6 with freeway, became a long process to go around. This meant going through a cranberry bog/farm, litigation, and enviromental hoops to go through. An additional problem was the generally anti road enviroment of both the Sargent and Dukakis Administrations, which sat in the Round House for close to 20 years.
In fairness, MA-25 was completed on Dukakis's watch.
Cranberries are an iconic staple of Southeastern Mass. - the road MA-25 supplanted is named Cranberry Highway, after all - so it's no surprise that there was strong pushback at the time, as the road goes right an area replete with cranberry bogs. Notably, one particular landowner stood in the long legal fight that took years and essentially delayed completing MA-25 until 1987: her name was Hope Ingersoll of Grazing Fields Farm. It's the reason the highway bends around Wareham and Buzzards Bay. More info here:
https://www.wgbh.org/news/local/2017-10-02/how-grazing-fields-farm-changed-how-we-build-highways
Agreement signed with more federal funding for construction of the new Cape Cod bridges:
https://www.mass.gov/news/healey-driscoll-administration-usace-fhwa-sign-agreement-to-move-forward-on-cape-cod-bridges-construction
I'm not too familiar with this matter, but it seems like tolls and discussion are regarding the existing bridge and will no longer be considered:
https://www.bostonherald.com/2025/04/30/massdot-wont-add-tolls-to-cape-cod-bridges-lifeline-to-the-mainland/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR6ivlW11uFIjTj6PCGcCYSdBBhHg0slCn7WEiDcuhpl4z7FvHzF_BqC1TA0nw_aem_TntCnN0Eb1n-2mhJbK6wxA#ma8uaumc00gsyepm69m7t
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on May 03, 2025, 07:18:24 PMI'm not too familiar with this matter, but it seems like tolls and discussion are regarding the existing bridge and will no longer be considered:
https://www.bostonherald.com/2025/04/30/massdot-wont-add-tolls-to-cape-cod-bridges-lifeline-to-the-mainland/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR6ivlW11uFIjTj6PCGcCYSdBBhHg0slCn7WEiDcuhpl4z7FvHzF_BqC1TA0nw_aem_TntCnN0Eb1n-2mhJbK6wxA#ma8uaumc00gsyepm69m7t
It was a Select Board of one of the Cape Cod towns floating the idea, when in reality they have zero authority to implement tolls and even their opinion holds close to no weight. It was also the town that probably pulls the least amount of tourism down there (Mashpee) so they tend to be the bitchiest about how much tourism bogs down the region.
Quote from: SectorZ on May 04, 2025, 08:25:03 AMQuote from: Plutonic Panda on May 03, 2025, 07:18:24 PMI'm not too familiar with this matter, but it seems like tolls and discussion are regarding the existing bridge and will no longer be considered:
https://www.bostonherald.com/2025/04/30/massdot-wont-add-tolls-to-cape-cod-bridges-lifeline-to-the-mainland/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR6ivlW11uFIjTj6PCGcCYSdBBhHg0slCn7WEiDcuhpl4z7FvHzF_BqC1TA0nw_aem_TntCnN0Eb1n-2mhJbK6wxA#ma8uaumc00gsyepm69m7t
It was a Select Board of one of the Cape Cod towns floating the idea, when in reality they have zero authority to implement tolls and even their opinion holds close to no weight. It was also the town that probably pulls the least amount of tourism down there (Mashpee) so they tend to be the bitchiest about how much tourism bogs down the region.
Mashpee? I don't know about that.
There's also Bourne, Brewster, and the northern half of Barnstable.