In recent times, many of the symbol signs in the MUTCD have been eliminated, in favor of worded signs. The rational being that many drivers do not understand the symbols.
My opinion: Symbols are much better than words because they are instantly reckonizabe without reading, and are understood by those who do not speak english.
Some of the symbols that have been eliminated:
LANE ENDS
NARROW BRIDGE
PAVEMENT ENDS
Let's hear y'all's opinions...
I've never seen LANE ENDS used without the symbol also used (and I'm 99.998% sure the symbol still exists), so that I'm not too concerned about.
Narrow bridge to me is a logical symbol for which the symbol should be sufficient.
Pavement Ends didn't really have a good symbol and usually only occurs on local roads (which generally have people who speak English or are familiar with the area), so the words are fine.
Over here there seems to be an increase in the number of symbols. Although not roads related the most obvious example is the EXIT sign in public buildings. Until around 10 years ago they had just EXIT in writing but now they have a symbol of a man running towards a door without the word EXIT. I much prefer the worded version. Even though I don't speak French or Spanish I know very well what SORTIE and SALIDA mean.
As for the examples mentioned in the original post the lane ends sign is pretty much universal throughout the world so it amazes me to see it is being withdrawn.
symbols are a must in Europe, there are approximately 20 different languages within a 1,000 mile range from my city.
For example, most people have no idea what " Węzeł, Razcep, Uscita or Křižovatka " means, but they do understand the symbol:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F9%2F95%2FAB-AS.svg%2F50px-AB-AS.svg.png&hash=5119aad46b6a3dba11fb8c49e0211cfe873823d3)
Hmm. I know I've still seen, like corco said, the symbol for a lane ending (the straight left lane/right lane with the bent left lane/right lane), along with the signage "Right/Left Lane Ends" and "Lane Ends - Merge Left/Right." Many of these are new installations.
I've not seen too many new signs with the narrow bridge symbol; just the words "Narrow Bridge," I've seen. I have seen some pavement ending symbols, but they look funny (lol). Most signage for pavement that ends has just the words "Pavement Ends."
A lot of folks don't pay attention, so it doesn't really matter if you use symbols or write out what's going on.
Be well,
Bryant
I checked against the current (2009) and 2003 editions of the MUTCD because I had a hard time believing symbol signs for the three conditions listed had been eliminated. Here is the story:
* Symbol signing is still an option for "LANE ENDS," but the old pavement width transition sign (which was often misinterpreted as "SHOULDER ENDS") has been replaced with a new symbol sign showing a lane stripe ending at a taper. This was introduced in the 2003 edition.
* I can find no evidence that "PAVEMENT ENDS" was ever a FHWA-approved symbol. The approach I have seen in the field is a graphic (not in perspective) showing striped blacktop giving way to gravel. The 2003 and 2009 editions show only word-message signs for this condition.
* "NARROW BRIDGE": there was once a FHWA-approved symbol for this condition, but it is absent from the 2003 and 2009 editions. I am fairly sure it was in the 1988 edition but I am not sure whether it appeared in the Millennium (2001) edition. (FWIW, I disagree with removal of the narrow-bridge symbol sign, but I also don't think the symbol was particularly easy to interpret.)
With the exception of "NARROW BRIDGE," it is hard to draw from these three examples a general inference that the MUTCD is moving away from symbol signing. In fact, the 2009 edition introduced tons of new symbols, mainly for animal warning signs, and agencies now have (for example) ways to differentiate between tame and wild horses in signing crossing hazards.
Where the symbol versus word issue is concerned, the tradeoff has always been between recognition and comprehension. Symbols are recognized from much greater distances, but are not necessarily easily understood. We had most of our easy wins when we rolled out a large number of symbol signs in 1972 and many of the sign messages which remain in text only are difficult to communicate using symbols. (How would you render "Keep right except to pass," for example?) There are some borderline cases where neither text messages nor symbols work particularly well and so standards keep changing until a satisfactory solution is found. This has been happening with "LANE ENDS" since the 1960's, for example--the current symbol sign is very similar to one used in the 1961 MUTCD except for the second stripe.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2010, 06:08:46 PM
* I can find no evidence that "PAVEMENT ENDS" was ever a FHWA-approved symbol. The approach I have seen in the field is a graphic (not in perspective) showing striped blacktop giving way to gravel. The 2003 and 2009 editions show only word-message signs for this condition.
* "NARROW BRIDGE": there was once a FHWA-approved symbol for this condition, but it is absent from the 2003 and 2009 editions. I am fairly sure it was in the 1988 edition but I am not sure whether it appeared in the Millennium (2001) edition. (FWIW, I disagree with removal of the narrow-bridge symbol sign, but I also don't think the symbol was particularly easy to interpret.)
Revision 1 (12/28/2001) of the MUTCD Millennium Edition still had the Narrow Bridge symbol sign (W5-2a). The symbol sign was an option that could be used in lieu of the "NARROW BRIDGE" word message sign (W5-2).
This same edition did not have a symbol equivalent for the pavement ends sign. While I have seen a couple symbol signs similar to those JN described in Nevada, word message signs are far more prominent.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2010, 06:08:46 PM
With the exception of "NARROW BRIDGE," it is hard to draw from these three examples a general inference that the MUTCD is moving away from symbol signing. In fact, the 2009 edition introduced tons of new symbols, mainly for animal warning signs, and agencies now have (for example) ways to differentiate between tame and wild horses in signing crossing hazards.
Where the symbol versus word issue is concerned, the tradeoff has always been between recognition and comprehension. Symbols are recognized from much greater distances, but are not necessarily easily understood. We had most of our easy wins when we rolled out a large number of symbol signs in 1972 and many of the sign messages which remain in text only are difficult to communicate using symbols. (How would you render "Keep right except to pass," for example?) There are some borderline cases where neither text messages nor symbols work particularly well and so standards keep changing until a satisfactory solution is found. This has been happening with "LANE ENDS" since the 1960's, for example--the current symbol sign is very similar to one used in the 1961 MUTCD except for the second stripe.
In general, words are going to symbols but symbols aren't going back to words. There has been a big push to increase symbolization in standard signs, with the intent of increasing recognition at a distance. In preparing the current edition of the MUTCD, FHWA made a big deal about the introduction of many new symbols for standard signs.
Many changes to warning signs involve symbols. New symbol signs include the various animal warning signs, falling rocks, three lane road, trail crossing (combined ped/bike crossing). Also, many warning signs with both symbol and word messages had their optional word equivalents removed (hill, divided highway begins/ends, stop ahead, yield ahead, signal ahead).
There are a number of other new symbol designs that were introduced in other areas of the manual as well, with the interest of increased recognition and comprehension. This isn't always possible, though, as JN mentioned. One proposed symbol sign to replace the regulatory message "Do Not Pass" actually ended up being removed before the current edition was finalized. The symbol's design (two cars side by side, with a red prohibitive slash through the left car) was ultimately judged to not clearly convey the meaning of the sign--this is despite the fact that the symbol has supposedly been used successfully in Canada for many years.
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 14, 2010, 06:08:46 PM
I checked against the current (2009) and 2003 editions of the MUTCD because I had a hard time believing symbol signs for the three conditions listed had been eliminated. Here is the story:
* I can find no evidence that "PAVEMENT ENDS" was ever a FHWA-approved symbol. The approach I have seen in the field is a graphic (not in perspective) showing striped blacktop giving way to gravel. The 2003 and 2009 editions show only word-message signs for this condition.
It was far from universally applied, so I would assume it was a test run. Canada I believe uses something similar? I for one like it.
the Pavement Ends and Narrow Bridge symbol signs were both shown in the Oklahoma DPS Driver's Manual, and have been ever since I got my second copy of it in the late 90s. (The first copy appeared to have not been updated from the 1960s as it treated symbol signs as the next great thing in road signage.) ODOT used the graphical Narrow Bridge sign extensively, but I never saw them use Pavement Ends. On the other hand, TxDOT did post the graphical Pavement Ends whenever Jake and I hit the end of the random FM that we unsuccessfully attempted to use to take us out of Childress County.
Also, a few years ago (2003?), a yellow warning sign with the three arrows in a circle image for 'roundabout' was added to the USA's MUTCD.
The latest revision added a uniform yellow warning sign image for 'reduced speed ahead', too. Prior to that, it was a black-on-white text sign that MANY corrupt local jurisdictions made as small and innocuous as possible.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on March 15, 2010, 10:21:42 PM
The latest revision added a uniform yellow warning sign image for 'reduced speed ahead', too. Prior to that, it was a black-on-white text sign that MANY corrupt local jurisdictions made as small and innocuous as possible.
I've seen that in other states like GA and NC but not many here in TN.
How long does anyone think it will take for those to become near universal?
Quote from: mgk920 on March 15, 2010, 10:21:42 PM
Also, a few years ago (2003?), a yellow warning sign with the three arrows in a circle image for 'roundabout' was added to the USA's MUTCD.
The Millennium MUTCD used a roundabout symbol sign that had a solid O-shaped circle with four nubs protruding outside the circle at the horizontal and vertical sides. The sign code was W2-6, and I believe the symbol was introduced in this edition of the manual.
The 2003 MUTCD revised the W2-6 sign to the use current three-arrow circle, and introduced the "Traffic Circle" optional plaque (W16-12p). The "Roundabout" optional plaque (W16-17p) wasn't introduced until the recent 2009 MUTCD, after many jurisdictions had created similar plaques to better reflect the situation.
Quote from: mgk920 on March 15, 2010, 10:21:42 PM
The latest revision added a uniform yellow warning sign image for 'reduced speed ahead', too. Prior to that, it was a black-on-white text sign that MANY corrupt local jurisdictions made as small and innocuous as possible.
The "Reduced Speed Limit Ahead" symbol (W3-5) and "xx MPH SPEED ZONE AHEAD" text (W3-5a) warning signs were introduced in the 2003 MUTCD, not the recent 2009 version. These signs replaced the "REDUCED SPEED AHEAD" (R2-5a) and "REDUCED SPEED xx" (R2-5b) regulatory signs--the rationale was informing road users of a reduced speed limit is not a regulation but rather a warning condition. With both the old regulatory signs and new warning signs, a regular speed limit sign is required downstream of the sign.
In some areas in Alabama, I have seen DIVIDED HIGHWAY and DIVIDED HIGHWAY ENDS as opposed to the symbols. As a matter of fact, the Alabama Standard Highway Signs Sheet (http://www.dot.state.al.us/NR/rdonlyres/0AB97D14-B3E3-427C-82AA-5BCF02CFE643/0/10US1300All.pdf) doesn't have the symbols listed for those.
The 2009 MUTCD shows W6-1 and W6-2 as the symbols for Divided Highway and Divided Highway Ends.
This is what Florida has gone to almost universally for speed limit reductions:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F2118%2Fspd40ahead.jpg&hash=5966dfc446ada022007b3f4cadd250cc213769be)
Quote from: realjd on March 16, 2010, 09:42:44 AM
This is what Florida has gone to almost universally for speed limit reductions:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F2118%2Fspd40ahead.jpg&hash=5966dfc446ada022007b3f4cadd250cc213769be)
Oklahoma has switched to these as well.
I've seen them in Texas as well. I don't like them, too small, plus speed limits don't belong in warning signs.
This is in the 2003 MUTCD. Oklahoma's version is slightly different; the speed is a lot larger. These are a lot better than what we had before, which was just a sign that said "Speed Zone Ahead" without any indication of what the speed was.
Quote from: Chris on March 16, 2010, 09:48:28 AMI've seen them in Texas as well. I don't like them, too small, plus speed limits don't belong in warning signs.
Speed limits do belong in warning signs if the purpose of the sign is to
warn of an upcoming condition.
Before this sign was introduced, there were basically two
MUTCD-supported options for warning of a reduced speed limit. One was to post "SPEED ZONE AHEAD" which, as others have noted, was very unhelpful. The other was to post "REDUCED SPEED XX" where XX was the reduced speed. I think the suggested size of the speed limit digits in the current warning sign is basically the same as the suggested size for the same digits in the old "REDUCED SPEED XX" sign, at the size classes recommended for use on high-speed two-lane highways.
Anyway, the size of the digits is not the most pressing sign comprehension problem on high-speed conventional-road state highways. We really need to get away from 6" uppercase-only/6" uppercase, 4.5" lowercase mixed-case lettering on D-series guide signs. I think California has already standardized on 8" uppercase/6" lowercase Series E Modified for its G-series equivalents. It's a bit ridiculous when a two-lane rural highway and a four-lane Interstate can both have speed limits of 65 MPH but guide signs on the Interstate get letters more than twice as tall and in a less condensed alphabet series.
The speed limit sign in warning sign is simple, though I can see where it would be awkward.
I'm indifferent about it personally, though if you don't like it, there's always Connecticut's approach:
(https://www.aaroads.com/northeast/connecticut050/i-084_eb_exit_017_05.jpg)
(picture from this site)Quote from: Truvelo on March 14, 2010, 05:05:16 PM
Until around 10 years ago they had just EXIT in writing but now they have a symbol of a man running towards a door without the word EXIT. I much prefer the worded version. Even though I don't speak French or Spanish I know very well what SORTIE and SALIDA mean.
Okay, that's weird. The red "EXIT" signs in buildings are ubiquitous and shouldn't be messed with. Besides, being able to read the word is unnecessary. If I see sign above a door or hanging from the ceiling in lit up red letters, I'd know it was an exit sign even if it was written in hieroglyphs.
Meanwhile, a number in a tab on a freeway sign would have the same comprehension, but some places don't use tabs for the numbers. That exit symbol's meaning is obvious, at least. The man running towards a door? Dunno, I'd have to see it.
A few years ago we switched over to using entirely the yellow diamond speed limit ahead signs. Before that we used no advance warning, except on interstates, where the standard "REDUCED SPEED AHEAD" black-on-white sign was used, and can still sometimes be found (see I-64 eastbound around the Denbeigh Blvd overpass in Newport News).
I greatly preferred the text sign, though I do like how this one specifies the new speed limit.
Actually, I remember reading somewhere that worded signs create more attention in that motorists are more apt to read them than a symbol. I forget where I read that.
I like the old days when you had a warning sign as a symbol and the meaning on a seperate sign below the warning sign. For example the merge synbol with a sign saying "merge" underneath it.
My biggest pet peeve is the contractors/state transportation departments that will swap out a symbolic STOP AHEAD sign with a text-only version.
Ran into one yesterday. A new STOP AHEAD sign that used to be an arrow above a red octagon. :banghead:
Those speed limit warnding signs have popped up all over here, as Chris said, I kinda like em cause if you actually obey the signs they tell you the speed as opposed to "Reduced Speed Ahead". But thats just my opinion...
BigMatt
Quote from: doofy103 on March 16, 2010, 08:13:39 PM
Actually, I remember reading somewhere that worded signs create more attention in that motorists are more apt to read them than a symbol. I forget where I read that.
I like the old days when you had a warning sign as a symbol and the meaning on a seperate sign below the warning sign. For example the merge synbol with a sign saying "merge" underneath it.
Motorists don't have to "read" a symbol...:pan: Whether motorists are more apt to heed a word sign over a symbol sign because they must read it is debatable. When examined from the cognition standpoint, symbol signs are generally understood quicker
because you don't have to read them. Quicker recognition increases driver reaction time.
The old plaques underneath signs such as "merge" are most likely remnants from the era when symbols were introduced. For the ones that still exist in the MUTCD, I believe these are referred to as "educational plaques". They are generally used with new symbol signs, and are deleted out of the manual after some time--"FALLING ROCKS" got a new optional plaque to accompany it's new symbol sign.
Quote from: mightyace on March 15, 2010, 10:34:16 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 15, 2010, 10:21:42 PM
The latest revision added a uniform yellow warning sign image for 'reduced speed ahead', too. Prior to that, it was a black-on-white text sign that MANY corrupt local jurisdictions made as small and innocuous as possible.
I've seen that in other states like GA and NC but not many here in TN.
The yellow "Speed Reduced Ahead" signs are now in Arizona, too; they've pretty much replaced the older black-on-white signs.
^^ I've seen a few of those new yellow "Reduced Speed Ahead" signs in Illinois, but mostly we still have the black on white "Reduced Speed Ahead" with the speed in a tab below the sign. Personally, I'm a fan of Michigan's style of signage for this: "Reduced Speed XX Ahead" where XX is the speed.
Quote from: Brandon on March 20, 2010, 09:34:59 AM
^^ I've seen a few of those new yellow "Reduced Speed Ahead" signs in Illinois, but mostly we still have the black on white "Reduced Speed Ahead" with the speed in a tab below the sign. Personally, I'm a fan of Michigan's style of signage for this: "Reduced Speed XX Ahead" where XX is the speed.
They replaced those signs when MDOT changed to clearview to these (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=14920+Cavour,+Livonia,+Wayne,+Michigan+48154&ll=42.356768,-83.112602&spn=0.00528,0.036049&z=16&layer=c&cbll=42.356771,-83.112609&panoid=4TbqArg9S44CaQdlWZyENg&cbp=11,165.22,,0,-0.36)...
NC has gone a great deal to the Yellow diamond signs with the pic of the upcoming speed.
However, it is interesting to note that NC was, as far as I know, the only state that used REDUCE SPEED AHEAD rather than REDUCED SPEED AHEAD in the regulatory signs.
^ The NC version actually made more sense on a regulatory sign.
I remember in PA that when the speed drops, all you see are red warning diamonds on the new speed sign...
SC used to use SPEED ZONE AHEAD signs, at least coming into Clemson on US 123.
Quote from: OracleUsr on March 20, 2010, 01:16:42 PM
NC has gone a great deal to the Yellow diamond signs with the pic of the upcoming speed.
However, it is interesting to note that NC was, as far as I know, the only state that used REDUCE SPEED AHEAD rather than REDUCED SPEED AHEAD in the regulatory signs.
Didn't NC also use "Begin XX 1000 Ft. Ahead" signs as well?
Actually, yes. I forgot about that
I 'd rather have the symbols than the words. I noticed on the I-196 interchange with I-94 west, MDOT replaced the symbol lane merge signs to the worded version. I always felt empowered by the symbol signs because they did not make drivers look like idiots and they were simpler to make.
I used to read ITE Journal in the U of A Library and they would occasionally have articles about new signs. I seem to recall one of them was the Pavement Ends. I used to photocopy the articles, so I'll have to see if I still have any of them.
I seem to recall one word sign got 86'd a while back: Limited Sight Distance
Quote from: realjd on March 16, 2010, 09:42:44 AM
This is what Florida has gone to almost universally for speed limit reductions:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F2118%2Fspd40ahead.jpg&hash=5966dfc446ada022007b3f4cadd250cc213769be)
Yup, those are springing up all over Vermont. I love 'em - a lot more useful than REDUCE SPEED AHEAD because at least you know what the change ahead will be. A lot of Vermont roads go from 50 to 30 and all you have are those signs for warning. I've seen them on the interstates, too.
In the 1980s when Connecticut was mass-replacing their signs, the signs indicating an onramp merging in with traffic changed, from all-text MERGING TRAFFIC, to the symbol common today. Seeing all-text MERGING TRAFFIC signs are oddities today.
Quote from: realjd on March 16, 2010, 09:42:44 AM
This is what Florida has gone to almost universally for speed limit reductions:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F2118%2Fspd40ahead.jpg&hash=5966dfc446ada022007b3f4cadd250cc213769be)
Arkansas isn't using those yet, though I know Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Mississippi are for sure.
Correction: Arkansas IS using them, but on a limited basis
Originally, Exit 28 (formerly Exit 22) had Reduced Speed Ahead signs, then they were replaced with the new diamond warning signs. They weren't up too long, then MDOT replaced them with these (http://maps.google.com/?q=04011&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Brunswick,+Cumberland,+Maine+04011&ll=43.914658,-70.008595&spn=0.004081,0.008272&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.91462,-70.008477&panoid=3junjs6Prrpx2_xMuOWIxg&cbp=12,121.81,,0,5). It seems a step backwards... but I assume the logic may be to resemble a SL sign and get drivers to slow down early in preparation for the actual SL change.
When I travel here, I just take my foot off the diesel pedal at the top of the hill (http://maps.google.com/?q=04011&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Brunswick,+Cumberland,+Maine+04011&ll=43.915702,-70.01176&spn=0.001839,0.008272&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.915701,-70.01176&panoid=kg9EN05LP2JtXPSQKxo3Kg&cbp=11,116.69,,0,5) and let the engine slow my car, so that I'm usually doing about 40 at the actual transition to the 35 MPH zone. With everyone else whizzing right past me, only to ease down to a natural driving speed (still well above posted) when entering the built-up area of US-1. You'll frequently see Brunswick PD cruisers waiting in the gas stations at the entrance to town waiting for these folks. The speed differential makes the US-1 south movement (a median U-turn ramp followed by a short weave across 2 fast-moving lanes) pretty hairy. IMO this jct should be reconfigured.
As for the "Merge" text plaques, well, MDOT cocks that up but good where 295 joins 95 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=04106&sll=43.915702,-70.011749&sspn=0.016416,0.033088&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=South+Portland,+Cumberland,+Maine&ll=43.620008,-70.356955&spn=0.002047,0.004136&t=k&z=18&layer=c&cbll=43.619875,-70.357094&panoid=9Nqa-Drt9aurJkrRmMQaFQ&cbp=12,238.64,,0,5). The reality of the situation is just as the W4-3 implies: an Added Lane. 295 becomes the new rightmost lane of 95, and 95 remains 6 lanes all the way to NH. :P
New York's got the new diamond ones, too. To me, they're an improvement over the old "SPEED ZONE AHEAD" signs because the diamond ones tell me what the actual speed limit is going to be.
...of course, back home, they're a major improvement over the abrupt speed limit changes without warning. I drive down NY96 west of Thruway exit 42 to get home, and every time I hit Phelps, there's the 30mph zone...but with no warning that the speed limit reduces, and the sign cannot be seen from a distance too well because of the way the road is aligned. Fortunately, I never got any tickets through there trying to suddenly slow down!
Quote from: Brian556 on March 14, 2010, 04:02:59 PM
In recent times, many of the symbol signs in the MUTCD have been eliminated, in favor of worded signs. The rational being that many drivers do not understand the symbols.
My opinion: Symbols are much better than words because they are instantly reckonizabe without reading, and are understood by those who do not speak english.
Some of the symbols that have been eliminated:
LANE ENDS
NARROW BRIDGE
PAVEMENT ENDS
Let's hear y'all's opinions...
Nobody bothered to put educational tabs under these signs. That's why nobody learned what they meant. You can still use them even though they are not in the MUTCD anymore as long as that word tab is under them. This is good because you can now use other versions of these signs which were not allowed before, like the Canadian Pavement ends sign which is easier to see than the US equivalent.
Post Merge: December 27, 2011, 08:38:03 PM
Quote from: roadfro on March 15, 2010, 11:18:46 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 15, 2010, 10:21:42 PM
Also, a few years ago (2003?), a yellow warning sign with the three arrows in a circle image for 'roundabout' was added to the USA's MUTCD.
The Millennium MUTCD used a roundabout symbol sign that had a solid O-shaped circle with four nubs protruding outside the circle at the horizontal and vertical sides. The sign code was W2-6, and I believe the symbol was introduced in this edition of the manual.
The 2003 MUTCD revised the W2-6 sign to the use current three-arrow circle, and introduced the "Traffic Circle" optional plaque (W16-12p). The "Roundabout" optional plaque (W16-17p) wasn't introduced until the recent 2009 MUTCD, after many jurisdictions had created similar plaques to better reflect the situation.
Quote from: mgk920 on March 15, 2010, 10:21:42 PM
The latest revision added a uniform yellow warning sign image for 'reduced speed ahead', too. Prior to that, it was a black-on-white text sign that MANY corrupt local jurisdictions made as small and innocuous as possible.
The "Reduced Speed Limit Ahead" symbol (W3-5) and "xx MPH SPEED ZONE AHEAD" text (W3-5a) warning signs were introduced in the 2003 MUTCD, not the recent 2009 version. These signs replaced the "REDUCED SPEED AHEAD" (R2-5a) and "REDUCED SPEED xx" (R2-5b) regulatory signs--the rationale was informing road users of a reduced speed limit is not a regulation but rather a warning condition. With both the old regulatory signs and new warning signs, a regular speed limit sign is required downstream of the sign.
This sign is basicaly the same sign Quebec invented years ago, but rheirs has a "maximum" sign in the diamond not "speed limit".
Quote from: averill on December 27, 2011, 12:36:27 AM
Quote from: Brian556 on March 14, 2010, 04:02:59 PM
Some of the symbols that have been eliminated:
LANE ENDS
NARROW BRIDGE
PAVEMENT ENDS
Nobody bothered to put educational tabs under these signs. That's why nobody learned what they meant. You can still use them even though they are not in the MUTCD anymore as long as that word tab is under them. This is good because you can now use other versions of these signs which were not allowed before, like the Canadian Pavement ends sign which is easier to see than the US equivalent.
Actually, no these symbols cannot still be used (except for LANE ENDS, which is noted upthread as still being in wide use and having completely replaced its textual equivalent).
The national MUTCD stipulates that non-standard symbols cannot be used on signs unless it is part of an approved experimentation. Agencies are free to create signs using word messages for any situation not conveyed by standard symbol or word message signs.
Quote from: roadfro on December 28, 2011, 07:09:01 AM
Actually, no these symbols cannot still be used (except for LANE ENDS, which is noted upthread as still being in wide use and having completely replaced its textual equivalent).
The national MUTCD stipulates that non-standard symbols cannot be used on signs unless it is part of an approved experimentation. Agencies are free to create signs using word messages for any situation not conveyed by standard symbol or word message signs.
Is there a deadline for removal or simply "when replaced" ? I've seen all of these still in use in various places, as well as 'LIMITED SIGHT DISTANCE" (though it is rare nowdays)
I prefer symbols to words just from an aesthetic standpoint. But also because symbols are more universally understood than words.
Quote from: US71 on December 28, 2011, 09:14:24 AM
Quote from: roadfro on December 28, 2011, 07:09:01 AM
Actually, no these symbols cannot still be used (except for LANE ENDS, which is noted upthread as still being in wide use and having completely replaced its textual equivalent).
The national MUTCD stipulates that non-standard symbols cannot be used on signs unless it is part of an approved experimentation. Agencies are free to create signs using word messages for any situation not conveyed by standard symbol or word message signs.
Is there a deadline for removal or simply "when replaced" ? I've seen all of these still in use in various places, as well as 'LIMITED SIGHT DISTANCE" (though it is rare nowdays)
Removal of the PAVEMENT ENDS symbol sign was part of the 2000 MUTCD and had a compliance date of January 17, 2011.
Removal of the NARROW BRIDGE symbol sign was part of the 2003 MUTCD and currently has a compliance date of December 23, 2013. This is one of several MUTCD compliance dates that is proposed to be removed (based on the Notice of Proposed Amendments that went out on August 31, 2011) in favor of allowing the non-compliant sign to remain in place for the remainder of its useful service life.
Quote from: realjd on March 16, 2010, 09:42:44 AM
This is what Florida has gone to almost universally for speed limit reductions:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F2118%2Fspd40ahead.jpg&hash=5966dfc446ada022007b3f4cadd250cc213769be)
Louisiana has been switching over for a while too. Most of the interstates and bigger US highways for sure
I thought I was going to have to start a whole new thread, but I found something on Park Sign Logos at the Old Car Manuals Project of all places:
http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/static/NA/GM%20Trucks%20and%20Vans/1971_Trucks-Vans/1971_Chevrolet_Camper_Booklet/1971%20Chevy%20Camper-25.html
This is a page from a brochure for 1971 Chevrolet RV packages.
Quote from: Hellfighter on March 20, 2010, 11:37:51 AM
Quote from: Brandon on March 20, 2010, 09:34:59 AM
^^ I've seen a few of those new yellow "Reduced Speed Ahead" signs in Illinois, but mostly we still have the black on white "Reduced Speed Ahead" with the speed in a tab below the sign. Personally, I'm a fan of Michigan's style of signage for this: "Reduced Speed XX Ahead" where XX is the speed.
They replaced those signs when MDOT changed to clearview to these (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=14920+Cavour,+Livonia,+Wayne,+Michigan+48154&ll=42.356768,-83.112602&spn=0.00528,0.036049&z=16&layer=c&cbll=42.356771,-83.112609&panoid=4TbqArg9S44CaQdlWZyENg&cbp=11,165.22,,0,-0.36)...
On a tangent, I-96 is 70 all the way to this sign, which is just outside of downtown Detroit.
http://goo.gl/maps/IZdL - This shows I-96's speed as 70 in the WB direction near this point, which is not much past the I-94 interchange.
Quote from: US71 on April 26, 2010, 11:45:36 AM
Quote from: realjd on March 16, 2010, 09:42:44 AM
This is what Florida has gone to almost universally for speed limit reductions:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg405.imageshack.us%2Fimg405%2F2118%2Fspd40ahead.jpg&hash=5966dfc446ada022007b3f4cadd250cc213769be)
Arkansas isn't using those yet, though I know Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Mississippi are for sure.
Correction: Arkansas IS using them, but on a limited basis
They are becoming more common. There are several sets on US 71 in Polk County now. I expect the whole state to be converted over within a few years.
When was the hospital yellow diamond sign cancelled? This one is older than 1979, possibly much older. The yellow diamond was replaced by a blue square sign with a big white H. I don't remember ever seeing a hospital diamond in the wild.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5064%2F5618462264_ca8a46da74_z.jpg&hash=c7e1e20c21d55beb22a554790c922c88fed0cca5)
Quote from: bugo on May 25, 2012, 02:43:00 PM
When was the hospital yellow diamond sign cancelled? This one is older than 1979, possibly much older. The yellow diamond was replaced by a blue square sign with a big white H. I don't remember ever seeing a hospital diamond in the wild.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5064%2F5618462264_ca8a46da74_z.jpg&hash=c7e1e20c21d55beb22a554790c922c88fed0cca5)
the large letter H on a blue square is an internationally recognized symbol - useful in the case of a non-English speaker requiring medical assistance.
furthermore, it provides a positive "your hospital is here!" as opposed to the warning sign, which is at best an ambiguous "sick people might be crossing. or something."
there is a HOSPITAL yellow diamond somewhere in Boston. I think it's just off Route 9 near Brigham and Women's, and if I recall correctly, it has the old Massachusetts custom font.
To expand on what agentsteel said, I wouldn't say the blue and white H "replaced" the yellow warning sign. They're two entirely different messsages.
The blue sign is meant to guide you to a hospital, and could be placed relatively far away from said hospital (i.e. at a freeway exit), and/or paired with arrows to guide you there.
The yellow sign is meant to warn you that a hospital is there, presumably so you could reduce your speed (high pedestrian traffic, ambulances or the like making sudden turns, etc.), and if it were still used, would only be located relatively close to the hospital, probably only on the street the hospital is actually on.
Quote from: bugo on May 25, 2012, 02:43:00 PM
When was the hospital yellow diamond sign cancelled? This one is older than 1979, possibly much older. The yellow diamond was replaced by a blue square sign with a big white H. I don't remember ever seeing a hospital diamond in the wild.
(HOSPITAL DIAMOND)
I thought I remembered seeing some in the wild next to Legacy Good Samaritan in NW Portland. Here's one on the corner of NW 22nd Ave and Northrup St: http://goo.gl/maps/rzQj
This hospital was located on top of a hill. The street (Pine Street) that passes in front of it goes down a big hill, then up one, then down again in a short distance. The speed limit on this stretch is 20 MPH.
I personal think the spelled out SCHOOL BUS STOP AHEAD sign is better than the 2009 MUTCD edition
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg705.imageshack.us%2Fimg705%2F2346%2Fmutcd.jpg&hash=1db44301be529f1858b0799111ab77443feaa9e0) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/mutcd.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Quote from: US12 on May 25, 2012, 10:33:52 PM
I personal think the spelled out SCHOOL BUS STOP AHEAD sign is better than the 2009 MUTCD edition
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg705.imageshack.us%2Fimg705%2F2346%2Fmutcd.jpg&hash=1db44301be529f1858b0799111ab77443feaa9e0) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/mutcd.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
That sign is way too complex to read at 55-75 MPH. It took me a while to figure out what it was the first time I saw one.
^^^
The whole point of symbol signs is that you don't read them. You may have had to figure it out the first time, but now you know what the symbol means.
Yes, it means there might be a bus ahead with an owie on its forehead.
Quote from: kphoger on May 26, 2012, 11:58:09 AM
Yes, it means there might be a bus ahead with an owie on its forehead.
Or it has an octagon-shaped paddle ready if you act up on the bus.
Quote from: hm insulators on March 19, 2010, 05:10:35 PM
Quote from: mightyace on March 15, 2010, 10:34:16 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 15, 2010, 10:21:42 PM
The latest revision added a uniform yellow warning sign image for 'reduced speed ahead', too. Prior to that, it was a black-on-white text sign that MANY corrupt local jurisdictions made as small and innocuous as possible.
I've seen that in other states like GA and NC but not many here in TN.
The yellow "Speed Reduced Ahead" signs are now in Arizona, too; they've pretty much replaced the older black-on-white signs.
And Kansas, although the first installed ones had the number set in a vertically-stretched font and looked bad. Some places are also using a version of this for the speed limit in a school zone (the diamond in strong yellow-green and the sign inside the diamond also having the [SCHOOL] banner above it).
Quote from: realjd on May 26, 2012, 09:41:12 AM
^^^
The whole point of symbol signs is that you don't read them. You may have had to figure it out the first time, but now you know what the symbol means.
Right, but if it takes you longer to figure it out the first time than it would to read "SCHOOL BUS STOP AHEAD", then it's already failed as a sign.
Also, bugo said "read", but perhaps he meant "recognize". That sign is so complex and busy that even though I know what it means, I won't be able to recognize the symbol/sign until I'm right on top of it, by which point it's probably useless.
Not that it really matters. There won't be school buses stopped there 95% of the time.
The only state that I've seen use those is West Virginia.
WV actually invented them; those probably predate the 2009 MUTCD. In the run-up to the 2009 MUTCD, FHWA incorporated many warning signs used by individual states, reasoning that if a state has identified a need for a sign that the MUTCD lacked, it was better to adopt it to stave off possible proliferation of many different standards.
I've seen some in rural Virginia. Old VA 38 has one or two like that.
Regarding the blue "H" symbol signs for Hospitals, I'm pretty sure many of thos pre-date the symbolization of signs in the US. I still remember that on the Long Island Expressway at Little Neck Parkway there used to be blue H signs, but these had smaller text for the rest of the word "OSPITAL," and they used to have arrows and feature the name of the hospital in a smaller banner underneath.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2012, 09:49:26 PM
WV actually invented them; those probably predate the 2009 MUTCD. In the run-up to the 2009 MUTCD, FHWA incorporated many warning signs used by individual states, reasoning that if a state has identified a need for a sign that the MUTCD lacked, it was better to adopt it to stave off possible proliferation of many different standards.
Much of the 2009 MUTCD sign revisions were derived from a FHWA sign synthesis study, which looked at various signs (warning, regulatory, etc.) in use by all the states as well as Canada and Mexico. The purpose was to see whether unified sign standards might be needed where the national MUTCD lacked one for a particular use. Part of this was to stave off proliferation of non-standard symbol signs; it was also to unify wording of many types of text-only messages.
WV's "bus stop ahead" symbol sign was one of these where the symbol was adopted (slightly modified to use the school crossing symbol children instead of the original children design used by WV). Nevada designs were used for many of the new animal warning signs (bighorn sheep as a particular example), as well as the daytime headlight series of regulatory text signs. A standard symbol was developed amongst the many out there for "falling rocks". The list goes on...
Quote from: HighwayMaster on May 27, 2012, 09:44:27 PM
The only state that I've seen use those is West Virginia.
NY uses them as well, at least region 7 does.
I've seen one in Washington... I apologize for my inability to remember where.
Quote from: Kacie Jane on May 25, 2012, 05:46:01 PM
The yellow sign is meant to warn you that a hospital is there, presumably so you could reduce your speed (high pedestrian traffic, ambulances or the like making sudden turns, etc.), and if it were still used, would only be located relatively close to the hospital, probably only on the street the hospital is actually on.
And to extend the Yellow HOSPITAL diamond issue further, I remember seeing some yellow diamonds in the past which read:
QUIET HOSPITAL
ZONEDefinitely, a specific message you cannot really convey in a blue square.
Quote from: thenetwork on May 28, 2012, 07:09:27 PM
And to extend the Yellow HOSPITAL diamond issue further, I remember seeing some yellow diamonds in the past which read:
QUIET
HOSPITAL
ZONE
Definitely, a specific message you cannot really convey in a blue square.
I have heard a rumor that there is a hospital in Long Beach in front of which there is a sign like that... except it is a white diamond with red text, dating back to 1919!
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 27, 2012, 09:49:26 PM
WV actually invented them; those probably predate the 2009 MUTCD. In the run-up to the 2009 MUTCD, FHWA incorporated many warning signs used by individual states, reasoning that if a state has identified a need for a sign that the MUTCD lacked, it was better to adopt it to stave off possible proliferation of many different standards.
I think they've been doing this for years. it would be interesting to figure out how many designs were come up with by the feds out of whole cloth, as I think the number is very small. the 1970 spec route shields, for example, are a 1965 Pennsylvania design.
the idea of using green signs on interstates was, I think, the result of a federal research project, but it was only a choice between black, green, and blue, each of which was being used by at least one state authority.
Quote from: HighwayMaster on May 27, 2012, 09:44:27 PM
The only state that I've seen use those is West Virginia.
I saw an installation in Tennessee over the weekend. Arkansas also has them (I think).
Quote from: thenetwork on May 28, 2012, 07:09:27 PM
Quote from: Kacie Jane on May 25, 2012, 05:46:01 PM
The yellow sign is meant to warn you that a hospital is there, presumably so you could reduce your speed (high pedestrian traffic, ambulances or the like making sudden turns, etc.), and if it were still used, would only be located relatively close to the hospital, probably only on the street the hospital is actually on.
And to extend the Yellow HOSPITAL diamond issue further, I remember seeing some yellow diamonds in the past which read:
QUIET
HOSPITAL
ZONE
Definitely, a specific message you cannot really convey in a blue square.
I have seen those too. I wonder if it mean that you are about to enter a hospital area in which everyone that works there has to be quiet at all times? :rolleyes:
Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 29, 2012, 09:34:25 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on May 28, 2012, 07:09:27 PM
And to extend the Yellow HOSPITAL diamond issue further, I remember seeing some yellow diamonds in the past which read:
QUIET
HOSPITAL
ZONE
Definitely, a specific message you cannot really convey in a blue square.
I have heard a rumor that there is a hospital in Long Beach in front of which there is a sign like that... except it is a white diamond with red text, dating back to 1919!
I've seen a wooden red-on-white hospital sign somewhere, but I can't remember for sure where it was. I'm thinking Eldorado, Illinois, but I could be way off.
I know something similar was discussed recently, but I can't find the thread. This one seems like a reasonable place to post this. It's a standard symbolic "stop ahead" mounted sideways to indicate that the stop sign is just around a tight curve. This is at the junction of MA 57 West/MA 183 North with MA 23 in Monterey. April 28, 2012.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teresco.org%2Fpics%2Fsigns%2F20120428%2Fstopright.jpg&hash=ccc3d0e2a3851aa810efddb189b73fae8aad0ae7)
Here's a link to a closer view showing "Mass. D.P.W." sideways on the left side. http://www.teresco.org/pics/signs/20120428/stopright-close.jpg (http://www.teresco.org/pics/signs/20120428/stopright-close.jpg)
Looks like this one:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3528.msg148719#msg148719 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3528.msg148719#msg148719)
My biggest disappointment for a specific sign that went from text to symbol to text again is the KEEP RIGHT black & white signs.
I much preferred the text-less symbol signs, but they pretty much have pretty much have fallen by the wayside in favor of the original style with an angled-up arrow instead of just a horizontal arrow. That being said, thought the angled-up arrow is the most common version I see nowadays, there are still new installations of the other 2 designs, just not as many (maybe a 60%-30%-10% mix of the newer arrow/symbol/older arrow versions).
Keep Right has both text and symbol sign versions in the MUTCD, with the symbol style being the default. The 2009 manual introduced a new "slimline" version of the symbolic keep right sign that is designed for mounting in narrow medians.
Sometimes using the text version is better, such as in construction zones where you're not keeping right of a median.
Quote from: roadfro on June 01, 2012, 03:26:24 AM
Keep Right has both text and symbol sign versions in the MUTCD, with the symbol style being the default. The 2009 manual introduced a new "slimline" version of the symbolic keep right sign that is designed for mounting in narrow medians.
Sometimes using the text version is better, such as in construction zones where you're not keeping right of a median.
I actually saw a Keep Right text sign being used just
after Elgin Road(Hernando County Road 572) was widedned towards Mariner Boulevard(Hernando CR 587) in Spring Hill a couple of months ago. Hernando DPW was all done with the project and that sign was at a divider just east of the Florida Power & Lighting ROW. I'm sorry I never got a chance to take a picture of it, because it was gone in less than a week. :-(
BTW, that road is a notorious speed trap. If you don't slow down soon enough, or if you pass a slow car you could be easily pulled over. Take it from me. :banghead: